#176: Ryan Peniston on his Breakthrough Year

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 176 of Control the Controllables and Happy International Podcast Day. As we release our episode 176, we once again have got an amazing guest for you. We talk all the time about tennis, reflecting life and life reflecting tennis. And there's no better guest than Ryan Peniston, to tell us all about that.

Ryan Peniston  00:37

I've seen a lot of what's happened to, you know, families that have had that, you know, cancer is become a part of their lives as well. So, yeah, I feel lucky, lucky and grateful to be able to, you know, still be standing here and, you know, be able to go out and play some tennis

Daniel Kiernan  00:57

And a truly inspirational story that Ryan tells and now here he is age 27. He's had a breakthrough year on the ATP tour. He's had wins over Casper Ruud, Jack Draper, Mannarino. You know, the list goes on. He really did have an incredible grass court season. And he's someone who I was lucky to know personally a few years ago, I say a few years ago, it was 11 years ago when he came to salt or tennis academy with his good buddy Rob Carter, who was training at the academy as a full time player at the time and Ryan was a skillful little boy, you know, he didn't do a whole lot with the ball in terms of power, but he was developing his skills. He was getting beat up by those boys, Rob Carter, Liam Broady, Josh Ward Hibbott. But he kept putting himself out there. He kept turning up every single day. And it's a true story of progression of continuous development. And he tells it so well, and I'm excited to pass you over to Ryan Peniston. So Ryan Peniston a big welcome to control the controllables how're you doing?

Ryan Peniston  02:09

Cheers. Yeah, no, don't get nice, right. Yeah, thanks for having me on.

Daniel Kiernan  02:13

It's that I feel like I was chasing a girlfriend when I was younger, you know, trying to trying to get that chance to get that date. And finally, I've got my man. So you, you haven't been an easy cookie to get a hold on? What's that for? Is that you avoiding me are just a busy life.

Ryan Peniston  02:31

Just a busy life, mate. Yeah, no, it's been. It's been Yeah, definitely busy training and getting back to, you know, tournament schedules. And but now it's been it's been good.

Daniel Kiernan  02:42

And Ryan to start with, and then we've got lots of different routes, I guess, on the podcast, but traditionally, and I think was someone like you, I think you're such an interesting story, from all the way through and in particular, the fact that you weren't number one in the world, Junior, you didn't necessarily have the junior profile that was that was going on to have the results that you've had, but going to the very beginning and the very start and a lot of people might not know it's about you. But age one, you know, got the illness. Cancer survived cancer at that age. I'm sure you don't remember much of it yourself. But but now that you're an adult, and you've got your adult life, tell us about that period. And you know, how it was for your parents and, and just the impact of that, I guess, positive impact or negative impact on your life because of it?

Ryan Peniston  03:37

Yeah, I mean, yeah, obviously, it is a huge part of my life. And I don't Yeah, I don't remember much of it when I was younger. But yeah, I mean, the impact it's had on me and my family and you know, friends and people around me it's been massive. It's such a such a tough thing to go through. At any age. But yeah, as a kid, I think my parents, they went through a really tough time. And I don't I don't remember much of it. And I only really started to, you know, ask and try and find out about when I was a teenager, just because I started to start to realize the the kind of gravity of the situation how how big it was.

Daniel Kiernan  04:24

How, how ill did you get

Ryan Peniston  04:29

I got pretty ill I mean, I had I was diagnosed with the, with the cancerous tumor, and then was, was kind of rushed to A&E to, to, you know, to get scanned and everything and then went rushed to St. Barts Hospital in London to have basically go on treatment straightaway. And I had the bouts of chemotherapy and lost my hair and everything and, and yeah, there was there's definitely parts of times, too. During all the treatment, everything when when it was, you know, almost touching go. You know, it was pretty serious. So, yeah, pretty, pretty brutal for my parents for sure.

Daniel Kiernan  05:11

And how's that? When I know, I know your dad and your dad's a great guy. And obviously you have a very, very close relationship with him. And he's he's been a big part a big part of your tennis and it how do you think that's affected? The relationship? I would imagine in a positive way but with with your parents.

Ryan Peniston  05:33

I think it's just made us closer. Definitely. I mean, obviously, a parent cares about their child. And I think when something like that comes along, you know, cancer. It just turns the whole world upside down. Really? So yeah, it's just, it's made us really close. You know, sometimes they can be a bit protective. Yeah. But not not crazy. So it's, it's okay. But now though, yeah, we're definitely close. And we keep in touch a lot, even even now, when I'm on the road.

Daniel Kiernan  06:15

Because I think traumas, lots of people have traumas in their life. And I guess, as you get to the stage, you are now age 27? Or coming up to 27? Yeah. Are you able to almost view that as with with some gratitude now, in some ways that that's, that's your journey. That's your story. It is who you are, and in some ways that then led to who, who you've become?

Ryan Peniston  06:44

Yeah, I think gratitude. Yeah, definitely the word. I just because I've seen a lot of what's happened to, you know, families that have had that, you know, cancer, it's, it's become a part of their lives as well. So yeah, I feel lucky, lucky and grateful to be able to, you know, still be standing here and, you know, be able to go out and play some tennis.

Daniel Kiernan  07:13

And from a physical standpoint, as we start to move into the bit when you started tennis, was there any, any side effects, anything that maybe stopped you from getting involved in sport from a young age? Like, at what point were you? Were you healthy? And what were the potential side effects of you having having chemotherapy and going through that?

Ryan Peniston  07:37

Yeah, so it definitely had side effects. When I was growing up as a kid and a teenager. I mean, I've recovered quite well, quite quickly. You know, from age when I was a toddler, so, three, four years old, I was, you know, in, in nursery, when I was, I was a little bit smaller than the kids, but I would always get involved with, with games and, you know, playing football and in the field, and, and it only started more when I was, you know, coming up to 10 years old. And then through my early teens, that the size difference made a made quite a big impact, especially in tennis. Because of the chemo, I started growing really late. So I was, as you probably you probably remember, I was probably about a foot smaller than then all the other kids up until the age of 15. So that made a big, big impact on me in tennis and and as a person really gave me you know, a chance to work on some other parts of my game. So other skills that maybe some others were weren't able to work on. But I also had, you know, attributes I didn't have such as like a, like a big serve or big shots.

Daniel Kiernan  09:01

I always think that I'm the I was the other way. So I was age 12. I was close to six foot I think and a pretty big strong lad. And I think people always think the big person or the tall person has the advantage, whereas the grass is always greener. Right. So I actually, I actually what I affected was affected with was, it was actually Mark Hilton. I used to play Mark Hilton and Mark was tiny, but he was the cute kid. So and I was the big monster, dude. I mean, it was we were pretty much the same age, but emotionally we were the same age. And people never treated me as the kid that I was. So if I played helps, you would feel everyone wanted the cute kid to win. You know, you would, you would adults would talk to me as if I was older than I was. And actually I I think coordination was harder, you know, it was harder to move harder to be agile harder to, so that the grass is always greener on. The other bit, I think of it is, when you are a bit smaller kid exactly what you've alluded to there, you develop different skills, you know, you develop ways of getting yourself out of trouble, you develop ways of being able to put your opponent in trouble and stop them attacking you. Because eventually everyone hits it quite hard. Eventually, you know, whereas not eventually does everyone develop skill, you know, so I almost think that's the better way around, because I think the bigger kid and I would be guilty of this sometimes skips a couple of a couple of bits and gets away with not having to develop getting in behind the ball or, or defending their serve or whatever it might be. And that all catches up. So I can I can, I can see both sides of it as well, you know, and certainly you as a tennis player, you've developed all those attributes incredibly well.

Ryan Peniston  11:06

Yeah, I mean, I was, I was, thanks. I was able to, yeah, work on what I mean, I was pretty fast as a kid. Mainly because I was small, and I had to do a lot of running otherwise, I wasn't going to win any points, basically. But no, that's funny. You mentioned that because I never really, because of my personal experience. I've never really thought about the other kids that were bigger, and how it was for them. But no, yeah, I had to had to run a lot, make a lot of balls and you know, trying to hit like you said difficult shots for them.

Daniel Kiernan  11:41

And tell us about your tennis bit. Where did you tennis start? How old were you? And give us kind of those early years? What was What's your memory of your early tennis years?

Ryan Peniston  11:53

Yeah, I mean, my first memories of tennis, always with my dad, because he kind of got me into the game. And yeah, they're literally we had a brick wall on the back back of my house. And I'd I'd hit, you know, sponge balls and mini softballs against it. Just for fun. And then we me and my dad started playing together. Just at the local club. We just hit and then yeah, kind of coached me and inside, started improving me and I started loving it. And just the main thing for me was the competing as a part that I loved. It was all fine, you know, playing my dad and training and stuff. But as soon as I played my first tournaments, I was just hooked.

Daniel Kiernan  12:41

And how did that work? Your dad the Father, Son, Coach player relationship. How did that work?

Ryan Peniston  12:48

Yeah, it's a father, son, Coach relationship. It's a special one for sure. You know, you, you're so close, as already as a parent and a son. But then to bring the coaching into it as well. You know, it makes you even closer, that sometimes it can get if you get heated, for sure. But no, there, there's there's good. There's a lot of good. And, you know, I've had some of our favorite, favorite moments ever on the tennis court with my dad, so yeah. So.

Daniel Kiernan  13:21

So what what age did your dad coach you tell? Did you? And how did that transition happen into someone else being your coach, and I guess the final year of that is how was that process? Was it easy for your dad to let go?

Ryan Peniston  13:37

Yeah, I mean, he he coached me literally from you know, when I've when I picked up a racket when I was three years old to up up until kind of end of 2020 When I started working with Mark Taylor. Wow.

Daniel Kiernan  13:53

I didn't know that. Yeah.

Ryan Peniston  13:55

Yeah. I mean, I went to obviously went to I went to a tennis academy in France, when I was at the age of 13. For five years, until until I was 18 years old. So I mean, I had coaches there the academy, but my dad would be you know, the main point of contact me that literally the main coach, you know, and he's helping my game and everything. And then even when I came home at 18, I went pretty much straight off to, to uni to college in America, to Memphis so and he would still have same thing. I'd have a head coach, assistant coach there and he did still help me out and my game. So it was only there back in the year 2020 When I'd been on the on the tour for just over a year and a half, though Yeah, started working with Mark

Daniel Kiernan  14:50

You've gone from 400 in the world up to 137 since that's happened, so is this you now do you now say Hey, Dad, why didn't you get me up to But I'm not the bit I want to before I'd love to jump into a little bit on college, because I think it's, yeah, there's so many people that are listening to this that are unsure about this college way this but before then what one thing I love about your story, and I remember you being out at the Academy with Rob, you know, if we go back kind of 2010 2010 2011 sort of period, and I believe you your best ITF Junior ranking was around 460. I, interestingly, when I was looking at that, so back in 2011, you beat Bonsey in grade five. And it's always interesting, because, you know, that's a great, that's a great five, you know, and at the time, and and you're, you're 16, 17 years old, he's a similar sort of age, you know, you're playing, you're playing grade five ITF. And, you know, I think we can sometimes have this snobbish outlook on tennis that if you're 17, and you're playing grade five, ITFs, you're obviously not very good. You know, it's that it's that kind of, it's that sort of Outlook. So you're one of the ones because the other the I guess you're a bit of an outlier, because the statistics also do back that up. To a degree. Yeah. So. So as an outlier, my question to you and to get into your head a little bit here, how, how have you been able to be relatively normal as a junior to then get to the point where you're, you're beating players, top 50 in the world, and from a mental point of view, more almost more than anything, and to those that are listening? You know, I think it's important that they know it is possible. So how have you made that possible?

Ryan Peniston  16:59

For me, I think the biggest thing that has helped me in my journey, my tennis journey, it's been taking small steps. You always have as a kid, you always have those those big goals and those big dreams, but, you know, they sometimes they seem so far away. And it's just, I think, something I've been able to do, since the juniors just take those little steps, just, you know, one, one winner here, you know, one goal achieved, and you just bit by bit, you just get closer, closer and closer to where you want to be. And yeah, it's just about doing that day in day out. For me, on the practice court, especially. Just trying to be better. Every day. It sounds it sounds so cliche, but literally, yeah, every day, trying to focus on something trying to improve something, and just get you closer to where you want to be.

Daniel Kiernan  18:04

But Ryan, you're you're living proof of that. And I use you as an example, a lot within the academy. I really do. Because, for me, you're the you're the role model and type of role model that players should be looking up to, you know, I think I think Carlos Alcaraz isn't, you know, because, you know, that's the generational talent that just flies through and cuts and cuts through the rankings, like, like a knife through butter. That's, that's not normal. That's not the way that I was taught. But not many people have the patience, the resilience, the perseverance to, to continue just making those developments. And, you know, I again, had a little luck from you coming out of college, after year, 1944, year 2572, year 3389 and 268, then currently 137 That, that byproduct of your day in day out mentality has has led to the level just gradually getting better. And then the ranking goes with, and yet, but that's such a long process. So how have you been able to stick to that process? Has there been times when your head's gone to doubt fear I can't do it? Or how have you then been able to lock back into the present moment to really do that? Because I think that's the secret in this sport. You know, so someone who's doing it and done that. I'd love to know how you've been able to do that.

Ryan Peniston  19:40

Yeah, I mean, 100% Like when I was a junior, for instance. I'd have I'd have those. Yeah, I'd have matches that I lost and I'd be getting down about them. I'd think you know, I mean, I was I was a foot smaller than then a lot of the kids so I think I was never going to be one of those top number one Junior in the world to then go and you know, straight into ATPs and grand slams. So yeah, I'd have matches, or I'd lose and I'd, I'd really you know, want to give up. It's that simple. And then it's just I think it's just that little voice, a little voice inside of you, that tells you to keep fighting, keep going. And you just have to try and make that voice as loud as possible. You just have to keep, keep going, keep pushing, and, you know, take the little wins as they come along. Don't definitely don't overlook those, it can literally be the smallest thing in practice, you can improve, you know, one, one shot or even just improve set something you're doing, maybe you're working on hitting targets or hit cones and you hit while in the summer you didn't do before. And you desperation overlook those lows, use those to keep pushing you on.

Daniel Kiernan  21:08

Very good, great advice. And, and in terms of a game, one of my beliefs, one of one of my beliefs around Junior Tennis, is why I like it. And I like players to go along a junior journey, not because it's defining, but because if you play a Grand Slam juniors, it gives you it gives you motivation, inspiration, it kind of gives you a bit of a taste of what you want, but also this feeling of belonging. You know, and I always have used as, as an example quite a lot on this podcast like Liam Broady, you walked into Wimbledon, with Liam Brody and Kyrgios is like Broads. How're you doing? And Dominic Thiem because of the relationships they had in the juniors? Now? Have you experienced any imposter syndrome as you've tried to make the way through? Because I think that also is a challenge that's bigger than people realize sometimes when you don't come with the, with the top world class Junior pedigree?

Ryan Peniston  22:10

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I've walked in to locker rooms and, and been thinking, Oh, what, like, kind of what's going on here? You know, this is this is new to me, isn't these are new faces I'm seeing? And yeah, it definitely has an impact when you, when you truly start to feel that you you belong at a certain stage at a certain level. It just, it changes your mindset. And it can definitely, you know, shine through. But no, I've, I've had that. Definitely. at many levels, I think even when I was just before I went to college, as a as a 1718 year old I'd, I'd be playing futures. And I'd lose, you know, in last round of qualities and qualify for a few of them. But then I'd, I'd be thinking I part of me would be thinking oh, don't don't quite belong at this level. And then, like I said before, you just you just make those little, little improvements. And you get you get one, one or two wins here and your whole mindset changes.

Daniel Kiernan  23:19

And from a from an internal dialogue standpoint, and I love what you're saying about making that voice a bit louder. You know, sometimes, sometimes the voice is too loud when it's feeding us negative. But when you're trying to try to talk yourself up from an internal dialogue standpoint, how did you overcome impostor syndrome? Because I think that imposter syndrome stops a lot of people, whether it's in tennis, or whether it's in life, so if you've got any examples of how you were able to overcome that.

Ryan Peniston  23:51

Yeah. For me, I mean, there's, there's always that that cliche saying of fake it till you make it. So having that little voice and just trying to make it louder, that the positive voice, the one that's pushing you on, you can keep doing that. You can keep making it louder until you achieve something and you can actually make yourself believe these things. You know, some people always say, I believe I can do this and believing and do that. And they don't, you know, truly believe it. Yeah. And I've found that, yeah, just continuing to keep on pushing and taking those little wins, helps you to then get to the point of truly actually believing it.

Daniel Kiernan  24:38

Because it's an it's such an interesting topic that we we've got somebody right now a player that we're working with, and they have a brilliant forehand. But the backhand is in development. Yeah. So you're the youngest player, and working with the psychologist, on Other things that they're talking about is this voice and trying to get, you know, to feed, feed yourself, your backhand, your best shot your back and your best shot. And this place sent to me. Well, that's bullshit. It's not, I can't believe it. Like, like, I can't see it, I keep saying it, I actually, then I actually then think it's even more nonsense, because it's like, I know, it's not about upgrading, or I've got a great forehand. So I've actually spoke to the psychologist and said, Well, look, can we change that to maybe, you know, affirmations, and all of these things? Are in brilliant, but can we change it? You know, my backhand? Is, is an excellent shot that is used to them bringing my forehand or, you know, something, that it's within the range of believability? Because I think if it's, we can't just just believe that I, I can't believe that I look like Brad Pitt, I don't you know, what I mean, I have to look at myself in the mirror every day, you know, but, you know, the certain things that would help me believe certain bits. So, I guess, my point being, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. It can't just be just telling ourselves lies, there has to be at any level has to be a level of belief in there as well. So you, you've obviously had that level of belief in there from from a young age, or is that something that's gradually grown as well?

Ryan Peniston  26:29

I'd say both. To be honest, I mean, I do feel like I've had that little, little bit of belief that, that true belief somewhere deep deep in there, yes, Insight since I was a youngster, and it's, it's when you keep on pushing that, that belief just gets gradually just a tiny bit bigger each time. Until, you know, one day a few years down the track you you won't even realize that you become so big that you truly, you truly believe it. And that's yeah, that's that's been kind of my my journey with that.

Daniel Kiernan  27:11

It's the compound habits bit, that in your, you are living proof of that, like everyone, I think we need to call this podcast, you know, gradual improvement, or something along those lines. Because, you know, that's that's the bit that seems to pit them eyes, what you've done, you know, in your career is like, just taking the little steps, little steps, little steps, little steps. And there's a there's a great picture, I like visuals. And there's a great picture of there's two steps, two step ladders, side by side, and one that has, you know, there's massive distance between the steps, and you've got these little kids trying it and they can't get there, they can't get to the next rung. And then you've got another kid side by side, it's, the steps are very manageable. And they're making the win and obviously climbing the way to the top. And as you're speaking, Ryan, and that's, that's kind of coming through loud and clear that what you what you represent, you know, and that's brilliant. Is that. So my last question before I move into college on that is, is that something that you've been taught? You know, is that something you've been taught a mindset from your dad from a psychologist? Or is that something that just naturally you've learned about yourself?

Ryan Peniston  28:27

Again, I think it's, it's been both for me, I think, as a youngster, you know, I had people around me, like, especially my family, you know, my dad as my coach, he would, he would, you know, ask me questions. He was like, Well, you know, why don't you believe in yourself, as you know, that much? And, you know, I wouldn't be able to answer but I knew that he and my mom and my brothers, they all believed in me. And I think I carried that as well with me along the way. And I think that's, that's helped me believe in myself more. So the people around you are definitely very important in that journey. For some people, it's not some people will, you know, they literally comes from themselves. But yeah, so for me, the people around me was was key.

Daniel Kiernan  29:18

And US college. Some people go to US college and they party and they, you know, fall out of love with the sport, you know, they, they maybe use it to get their degree and, you know, don't don't quite do too much more, you know, whereas other people and obviously Paul Jubb comes to mind you know, yourself, you know, as British players going and just absolutely soar, fly. And it seems, you know, when I think following you as you were going to college, to the player that you came out of college, it was almost unrecognizable. You know, you really took took lots of lots of little steps. That turned into a big step. So, so how was how was that experience? And? And why do you think that was so successful for you?

Ryan Peniston  30:08

Yeah, I mean, I think even before I went to college, there was the stigma of, you know, if you go to college, you're you're basically giving up tennis, you're quitting, because there were there were obviously players that that went along that that path. But yeah, there was just this whole stigma around that. And I, you know, I went on the recruiting trip, and I thought that was like that. That's nonsense, like, how can that be possible, you know, with the, some of the facilities and the level of tennis and college, I couldn't believe it. But, I mean, the huge thing for me about college is it really does help show you what, what you really want to do. In life, whether it's, you know, you want to play tennis, or whether it's, you want to go into something else. And for me that it showed me that I really wanted to play. And that was a big, big turning point for me. In my career, really, just because it all started to come from me, from myself, you know, like, I had had a vision, and I realized what I kind of had to do to work towards it. So that's where I basically put them put them on wild turn. I've always had this image in my head, well, or this sale, you know, college was the place where I learned to really work hard. And that was where I first started, you know, doing day in and day out. Work on myself. And that's how I feel like I was able to improve over those four years.

Daniel Kiernan  31:55

And do you feel that you got that you got lucky with where you went? Because sometimes, sometimes the and I'm a big advocate of US college and, and when I went myself and if you go back, I'm 15 years older than you imagine what the stigma was like, then, you know, it was like, you know, he was this this guy's giving. I mean, I remember the head of men's tennis speaking to me. And I just won a futures and turned up to a challenge. Ernie, when are you still playing Are you done? been in college for four and a half years. And that was that was that was the reality of how it was. But But I also know that there is some bad experiences in it. It feels to me that those players that get a nice connection with a coach, and in a program and the values of the program, and all of those bits give themselves the best chance at chance of excelling. So was that by luck that you got the right program? Or do you do you feel you did a good job in the research before you went?

Ryan Peniston  32:57

I mean, I didn't know too much about college. Hardly anything really, before I went, and I went when I worked started working with Sarah Boyle to find me a college to go to. And yeah, it came upon, dropped on the University of Memphis. And I was talking to Chris Dawa, the assistant coach at the time. And yeah, he was he was giving me info. And I still still had no idea. No idea about guys until one of my recruiting trip. And then kind of saw what what it was all about and the facilities and what kind of the lifestyle would be like, and I met the head coach as well, my recruiting trip and that was that was a game changer for me because yeah, I feel pretty lucky to to have come along and met those guys because yeah, both both Chris and Paul. Were just awesome, awesome coaches and awesome people. So I do feel lucky in that respect to, to me them and yeah, they were a huge part of the reason why I signed with Memphis and then that that yeah, that whole journey started they they were just able to to kind of help me improve on and off the court you know as as a person and as a tennis player. And yeah, very very grateful for that. Because

Daniel Kiernan  34:25

that was one of my one of my beliefs that's probably shouldn't say this is a tennis coach that I was an academy owner is that players make players and players make coaches and I sometimes and it's a bit harsh on us as coaches but I ultimately Alcaraz is going to be a top player in the world wherever Juan Carlos Ferreira was coached and may take a little bit longer. So for you how important is a coach and And, you know, what, what is it you're looking from, from a coach? And what impact do you do you think a coach has,

35:09

I mean, I think coaches is so important in the life of a tennis player, you know, you can have, you can have coaches that, that come in and out of your career, but the coaches that, that help you learn lessons, and really care about you as a not just a tennis player, I think as a person, I think they make the biggest impact. And, you know, a coach is someone that's trying to help you achieve your goals. And they, you know, do whatever they can to get there to get you to that point. And a lot of them have different different teaching methods, and some, some work with some players and some don't. But I think that if the coach really is passionate about what they're doing, and cares about you, as a person and tennis player, I think the chance of them being able to help you achieve your dreams is, is it's improved a lot.

Daniel Kiernan  36:18

So what do you think of my statement of I believe players make players and players make coaches? Would you be a tennis player? If you hadn't have had that? And it was your dad, for the most part? If you didn't have your have your Dad, do you think you would have I guess the point I'm trying to make and why I think that is, is I do think I do think the player controls their own destiny more than sometimes they they think and, and quite often more than parents think in on and, you know, when we're getting into the micro detail, I absolutely believe coaches have impact 100%, and they're an important part. But, but for me, Ryan Peniston, I would think you been who you are, would have found your journey with coaches supporting you along that way. Rather than it being that, it's, it's just that it's the coach, that's the coach that's done that and if you if the wrong call to that wouldn't have happened. And I think the second part of that, for me, is coaches that work with the best players often are seen as the best coaches, which doesn't, it doesn't always add up. Because, you know, if you're the player does very well, because they're just a super talent, and they've got this super amazing mind, then the reputation of the coach goes through the roof. And it's like, that must be the best coach because they work with the best player. So I guess that that statement, there's a bit of context to that. So just when to play, as I like to, I like to understand from the players, you know, I'm not saying that they're not impactful. But I guess the better question might be, would you be a professional tennis player of 130 in the world? If you had to struggle a bit and find different coaches along the way? Or do you think actually, no, there was no chance I couldn't have done it without having that support, in this instance, from from your dad and then Mark Taylor the last couple of years?

Ryan Peniston  38:31

Well, it's a tough question to think about. I think, without first of all, without my dad, I don't think I would ever picked up a tennis racket. So in that respect, I think, yeah. And without him, I wouldn't be a tennis fan or when when, you know, being able to do what I've been able to do so far. But yeah, I think there's definitely a certain part of me that would still would have found a way to to achieve something, but no, it without my dad and without like Taylor for the last year. So years, I think. I don't think I would have been able to get there. That's That's my view. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  39:20

I think it's always an interesting, it's an interesting topic. And look, I think, ultimately, coaches incredibly important. But I also think players do control their destiny a little bit more than we give them credit for, if times as well but but on that it, are there any regrets that you've had in your career? Like, if you could go back and go, you know what, I wish I hadn't done that. I wish I had done that. In a certain moment. Like I've had players on here saying I wish I'd changed coach at a certain time. I wish I'd moved country, whatever it might be, is there is there anything that you could pinpoint that, that maybe you regret. And if you had that decision again, you would have made a different decision.

Ryan Peniston  40:08

I think that when I was 13, when I went to the academy in France, there was always a part of me during those five years that I was there. That was think, what would have happened if I, if I didn't come to France for tennis academy, if I stayed in England, and if I kept going to the same secondary school and you know, kept, kept my same friends. And, you know, went that route and maybe trained in England for a bit, but you can I mean, you can have those thoughts about anything, any any decision, you make any big, big decision, what what if, and what would have happened if I did something differently. But I just try and see the positive in what I what I did, you know, I was able to, I was fortunate enough to keep training and playing tennis every day, my life changed. Basically, I met a whole new group of people, new group of friends, and yeah, my life definitely wouldn't have been the same. And I think the biggest thing that came from those five years were my, my love for the game. And interest in in the sport was was still there. So, you know, when I was eight, when I went to college afterwards, I still had that, that fire inside. But yeah, that for me, that's, that's the only thing really, that I can think of that I've thought, What if?

Daniel Kiernan  41:43

but that's a great thing as well. And I think it's a game in our sport, that's often not talked about enough that that inner fire that inner bird, which isn't always easy to keep a light, you know, we especially now it's getting younger. I mean, it's getting younger and younger. I mean, I'm dealing with 10, 11 year olds and their parents now that they're complaining that you know, that they've done the wrong stretch of their hamstring, or they've done the, you know, that the detail to which, to which the sport has now gone to, but where I think we have to be careful. And again, it's where I think you're a great story is you've gradually burned that flame, it's just it's stayed alight, its stayed alight at different parts of your career, you've really got the burners on and, and made those made or made those big strides. But ultimately that that motivation, discipline, that purpose, that desire has, remained there, we've got to be careful, we don't burn that out. And and that will be something that I'm sure if you go back, and you think of your junior days, how many? How many of your Yes, contemporaries are still playing now. That were some of the better players in France and in the UK at that age?

Ryan Peniston  43:03

Yeah, I mean, hardly any of them from from those days. And it's, in some of the cases, I find it quite sad, just to see them, you know, not, not necessarily that they didn't go on to play professionally or, you know, more of the parts, I think they say, probably we're confident that some of them don't, don't pick up a racket at all anymore. And it's just that that desire, and that love for the game turns into something negative, which is, which is the part I find it quite sad.

Daniel Kiernan  43:40

Absolutely. And, and it happens all too much. And it's, it's the risk and reward, you know, and the parents out there, be careful that you don't have your eyes on the reward too much that you take such a risk that that the fire burns, you know, and this story of, of gradual, you know, just keep keep going down doubt is the story to copy and in my opinion, but right I want to move into my last big topic before the quick fire round is 2022 You know, and I think anyone in the tennis outside of the tennis world or kind of loosely follows tennis I would have no idea who Ryan Peniston was 12 months ago, you know, and all of a sudden you are on our screens. You know you had an incredible incredible summer you know on the grass courts and from Mannnarino, Draper, Ruud, Cerundolo, Rune, as you know, these these names, it wasn't one wind, you know, it wasn't two wins. It was it was you showing repeatable level against some of the some of the best players in the world. So talk us through that period. And as you went into that period, did you feel ready to make that step? You know, was it a surprise to you? Or was it like you know what, no I'm starting to feel like I belong here. And, and and belong you certainly did. So, talk to us about the summer of 2022.

Ryan Peniston  45:10

Yes, Summer, summer 22 It's pretty special. Pretty special for me. And, yeah, but I didn't, I didn't see it coming, to be honest, to be 100% honest. And I just, like, like I kind of talked about before, it was just the kind of slow progressions. I mean, this this one for me, the summer was was a pretty big, big step up, that you just kind of came, came from lower. But then I say from nowhere, but I was also, you know, working towards those things that for so long. I had the, you know, the image of us playing a Wimbledon's for the last, you know, basically, since I was a kid, so that that had been fueling that fire for a long time. But no, it was. Personally, I mean, before the grass season even happened, I was playing on the clay. And I just, just were lost in the Czech Republic, I lost a challenger and then the next week I was in France for French quallies, and I took a took a bad beating first round of qualities there. And, you know, I came back home and went onto the grass and just started training a little bit and you know, if you'd have told me then the kind of summer I'd have, you know, when I wouldn't have believed you, for sure. But then I just played went to Surbiton and and played the first challenge and got got drawn against Mannarino first round. And even even then, lost the first set six two was a little bit nervous and managed to try and like stay positive managed to sneak a break and then it kind of all kind of spiraled from there. It just, you know, one when I first kind of top 100 win there and then went on from there to play some some other great players and, and been able to, to get some wins against them. So yeah, it was a roller coaster for me. And yeah, pretty, pretty great for that to happen.

Daniel Kiernan  47:37

When you played Casper Ruud, I thought he's gonna lose this because he only beats lefties, you know, these guys, the grass court season, you know, the Mannerino, Draper, and then Vesely, it was like now he's got no chance. And then obviously beating, beating Ruud after after French Open. And we talked about this, like belonging, this belief system this when you're starting to consistently because many players, British players over the years have had their, their moment, their moment of glory and their big result. But when it's 6, 7, 8 guys over a period, it must play strongly into that belief system and that belonging.

Ryan Peniston  48:22

Yeah, played it played hugely into into the belief part. And the belonging part I think came came afterwards. But it was mainly the belief part when you just get one of those wins, and then it increases and then you step on the court for the next one against another top 100 player and your belief you just you feel that it's a bit bigger than last time. And that just just fills you with over quite a lot of confidence, which you can just use in that in those tight moments.

Daniel Kiernan  48:56

And a slightly harsh question Ryan. Fire away. The cynics will say it's on grass. And if I could share a quick story I was sharing a room with with Johnny Marray. We were living when the national tennis center was Queens Club. And we were living behind Queens Club and Johnny Johnny was playing Queens and he had a he was having this great run. And he ended up losing to Lleyton Hewitt in the third round 7-6 7-6 5 set points of both sets and he got a standing ovation from the from the Queens club crowd and we walked up and I guess I was I was playing doubles with him. So we I was kind of that that meaty coach walked up the steps and as we walked up the steps, I just heard Lleyton Hewitt kind of turn and say to somebody, what the eff is going on here he lost. And then he walked into the press conference. He said, Well, let's see what this guy's doing the next nine months when he's off the grass courts. You know, that was a really harsh comment. But it was a true comment. Because because Johnny probably didn't have those same results on any other surface. So the cynic out there is gonna care. Brilliant. Ryan, well done that. Unbelievable. Can you do it on a different court surface? Can you do it outside of the summer in the UK? So what's what's your response to that? Apart from screw you?

Ryan Peniston  50:35

Yeah, no, it's a good question. I mean, valid question, I think that critics are always going to try and look for something to put you down and be negative about, but it's definitely it's 100%, valid question. And I think that, personally, I think that I'm going to use that as just even more motivation to prove people that, that I can beat these players, not just on grass, you know, and that's something that I'm going to going to fuel my fire with. And, yeah, take it on to the h coardurts and Clay courts.

Daniel Kiernan  51:15

When you get those big wins on the hard courts, I want to hashtag screw you Dan, you know, like I want to be I want to be part of this journey, even if I'm the voodoo doll that you're sticking the net, sticking the knife into but the next part of that question, and again, we know we've tennis management of expectations is massive, and, you know, you're you're pretty seasoned guy, now you've been you've been around and you've made those gradual progressions, but when you have such an interest to those listening, you might not know this, but because it's a rolling ranking, when you have such a heavy period of success, which feels great at that time, when that next comes around the following year, that then becomes a period where you're having to win lots of matches, just to stay the same. You know, rather than that feeling of winning the matches to to see your ranking improve. So how, how will you approach that from a, from a mentality point of view next summer?

Ryan Peniston  52:17

Yeah, I think there's, I mean, there's, there's some, there's quite a few player tennis players out there, that, you know, when they, when they have a big result, or they do they do well on a tournament, they, they straightaway think about defending those points, you know, I've heard come up in conversation, they, they literally will come off the court you know, after after a big win or defend those points in a year's time. But I think that's it's a pretty, it's a pretty negative way of looking at it. And it comes to a point you know, when you're when you're a tennis player, when you you play so many matches, so many tennis matches. And I think that the point when you start to become a proper professional, you know, is the guys that you know, playing week in week out the same, the same, the consistency and they're literally that treating every point the same they're not thinking about you know, points or or so and so and I think when you when you can reach that level it makes it makes a big difference. Yeah, so you know, obviously that's something I yeah, I want to get to and I can also use it as a challenge as well. To try and yeah, do the best

Daniel Kiernan  53:50

I can and what's the goal for the rest of 2022

Ryan Peniston  53:56

goal I mean a good goal of mine I'd like to have is to try and try and make the main draw of Australian Open I think that'd be a good goal. Yeah, that's that's that's a big one for me at the moment and just trial Yeah, like I've been doing tape tape every week and every every match the same as I can.

Daniel Kiernan  54:20

And last question we for our famous quick fire round right? What would life after tennis look like for you after tennis player? Not that I'm trying to wish your career away. You're still you're still a young pup I mean, that fed already retired just last week at age 41. So you've got plenty more plenty more legs in this career. But yeah, what what could you see yourself doing after life as a tennis player?

Ryan Peniston  54:48

I get asked that quite a lot. And it starts to make me think oh, maybe people will think of giving But no, I mean, a big one that draws draws passion from me. I mean, a lot of people say, but I love food. I love, you know, cooking it and just the different cultures and how they so suddenly that I had something related to that, I think would be awesome. Whether it's travel blogging, or even having maybe even like a food show in the future, I think it'd be amazing.

Daniel Kiernan  55:35

We'll have to get thinking maybe at any, any of the listeners got any ideas, maybe some brand names, or, you know, this is an auto going on for a while, but you get some downtime as tennis players. So now's the time to to also be be using the brainstorming before before when you're fully in and your time's eaten up every minute then you won't have the time. Ryan You're a star I've I've I've loved chatting to you you know and I I know you're in Korea right now so I really appreciate you you've given me the time and you know given the listeners that insight I'm sure everyone's absolutely love listening to you. So before you go quick fire round Are You Ready? Ready? What does control the controllables mean to you?

Ryan Peniston  56:23

It means focusing on the things that you can take care of there's that are outside of the box that you have no control over no care of no control. Don't put any of your mind towards them.

Daniel Kiernan  56:43

And what are those things for you? Called a quick fire? What are those? Those things that you're controlling on a day? You've said it a few times and I love that day in day out? What what are those? What are those key things for you?

Ryan Peniston  56:56

Key things are how other people are acting, how other people are playing behaving. The number one thing that you can control yourself is your attitude and your mindset towards things you can't control necessarily some what someone else is thinking. So putting your energy towards that it's not going to be useful to you

Daniel Kiernan  57:22

forehand or backhand

Ryan Peniston  57:27

Forehand

Daniel Kiernan  57:28

Serve our return

Ryan Peniston  57:29

return

Daniel Kiernan  57:30

singles or doubles.

Ryan Peniston  57:33

Singles

Daniel Kiernan  57:34

college or pro

Ryan Peniston  57:36

college

Daniel Kiernan  57:38

refer or Roger

Ryan Peniston  57:40

Rafa

Daniel Kiernan  57:42

Come on You can't say that in the weak that he's retired.

Ryan Peniston  57:45

Sorry.

Daniel Kiernan  57:49

Your toughest ever opponent

Ryan Peniston  57:55

Opponent tough one for me who jumped out and can't say Ruud?

Daniel Kiernan  58:04

Why? What was so tough about him?

58:07

Just feel his level was was pretty high his base level?

Daniel Kiernan  58:12

Davis Cup or ATP cup.

Ryan Peniston  58:15

Davis Cup

Daniel Kiernan  58:16

Net cord or not?

Ryan Peniston  58:19

netcode.

Daniel Kiernan  58:21

So you'd go college rules? Would you

Ryan Peniston  58:24

Gotta go college?

Daniel Kiernan  58:27

Medical timeout or not?

Ryan Peniston  58:31

No. Not at all.

Daniel Kiernan  58:34

But you're the first player that said no, every other players said yes. Everyone said yes. Every player. Everyone  who is not a player said no. So people that have committed will timeout. Every other player has been honest, said they should have. So let me rephrase the question. Should you be allowed medical timeouts or not? And all players have said you should be allowed them?

Ryan Peniston  58:57

No.

Daniel Kiernan  58:59

I stick to and I'm with you. I think that's played I think it's too I think it opens up too much of a of a an area that can be can be manipulated. I really do. And if someone's if someone's that injured or that injured, if somebody needs medical help, they shouldn't be playing a tennis match. Go into the locker room have medical help. Yeah. What's one rule change that you would have in tennis? That's not the medical timeout rule. Or the lateral or the lateral? I'm not letting you checked we've answered that.

Ryan Peniston  59:33

Stick a short deuce in there.

Daniel Kiernan  59:36

This is listen to this one. This is what somebody said the other day and I loved it. It was Neville Godwin actually that said this. He said lefties should start Service Games serving on the ad side. Interesting and and II said the big points on the ad side. So it's an advantage being a lefty and is the first time I've heard it, but I agree with it. So what what are we saying? I'm speaking to a lefty? Is it an advantage? Do you feel it's an advantage? And would that take the advantage away?

Ryan Peniston  1:00:13

I think it is an advantage. And yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:20

Don't speak too loudly up or listening.

1:00:25

So as as a lefty, don't change that. Thanks.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:29

And in who should our next guest be on Control the Controllables you are you are taking over the role of the agent at this point. So you have to produce Okay, don't just don't just fire just don't like people are firing out like Roger Federer and that is not getting them. You know what I mean?

Ryan Peniston  1:00:45

Okay, now I'm a fire someone I'm trying to ask Alistair Gray.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:51

Alistair Gray Let's get it. Let's get it on. It'd be it'd be it'd be a great, great guest to have. So I'll be in touch with you, Ryan. After that. We'll get Alistair Gray on in the next few weeks. But all the best I know you're out in Asia the next four weeks? Yeah, for me, my big takeaway here. I love your mindset you're in you can tell I can always tell when I speak to you guys. Where mindsets are at you know, your, you're content, you belong at this level, the ATP level and above. You know, keep rocking it. You know, there's a lot of people that are supporting you that you won't even realize and I'm one of them mate. So thank you for coming on and all the best.

Ryan Peniston  1:01:31

Thanks a lot for having me again. It's been awesome.

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:34

And I hope you feel as inspired as I do listen into Ryan's story. In an incredible story. And and only the beginning for Ryan, you know, I have no doubt he's going to keep going with his tennis playing career but also beyond. And we need to remember that this is not just about what a ranking is at the end of a career. It's about where you continue to grow. And as we talk about continuing to grow, Last week saw Roger Federer come to the end of his playing career which gave us so much and as we discussed in our in last week's podcast has given so much to so many people in the tennis world. And we got to celebrate we got to watch to laugh, to smile, to cry and cry and cry as as he went through his retirement and I know someone who was sat watching it next to me and certainly cried a lot and watched a lot and I think went through the memories as well. Have you Have you recovered yet? Vicki from from the Laver Cup experience? Oh, it

Victoria Kiernan  1:02:39

It was rough. I thought I was prepared but it was way worse than I anticipated it was seeing all the other players. I mean, I said in the last episode, we had a Roger Federer retirement special which is if you haven't listened to it yet it was a great listen lots of guests on loads of different stories. But I said then at the time I wasn't sure about his decision to be retiring then but actually on reflection it would be really special to have all the people around him playing on court with Rafa and why was it special off seeing Rafa in in such a state that was that was me gone finished me off, as I think it did a lot of people.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:18

And I think the subtleties of it, as well. And I don't think that can ever be recreated. I saw, I saw an interview with Novak Djokovic yesterday and he said that he would like when he eventually retires, you know, to have all his rivals around him as well as his family, but the way that it kind of organically happened, and, and the little clips that are coming out and even the one I saw today, you know, when Rogers children came on to the court, that was the one time that Novak jock which completely went you know, his head was in his hands. You know, there's lots of suspension naturally,

Victoria Kiernan  1:03:53

He mentioned that when he was interviewed after his singles match, he said that was the moment that really got to him.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:59

And I think it's just good for us to remember that there is more to life than than hitting a fluffy yellow tennis ball over the net and in between the lines and sometimes we can get so caught up in that world that we think that is the most important thing. But it ultimately will come down to Connections relationships, and to see that flourish with such vulnerability I think in front of our eyes was was very special. And we once again wish obviously Roger Federer the very best is going to continue giving the game a lot but if I bring it back to Ryan because Ryan gave his time and he was out in Seoul in Korea and he did actually go on he did last and last round qualifying got in his lucky loser and he's he's having a fantastic year. So many things to take from from the conversation. And you know, you said to me Vicki often when these When these episodes start with talking about people's stories, which is great to hear, but this one got us from the word gall.

Victoria Kiernan  1:05:07

Yeah, to hear about Ryan talking about his cancer diagnosis at such a young age, I mean, in some ways fortunate that he can't remember too much about it. But, you know, he talked about the side effects from that in terms of his delayed growth, and that the impact it had on his on his parents and how that has maybe strengthen their relationship. I think it makes his journey from being so ill at such a young age to now a professional tennis player even more impressive. And like he said, it's made him who he is today, you've just said as well done. You know, there is more to life than hitting a yellow fluffy tennis ball around the course. And having the perspective that he's had on life having been through that, I wonder if that is giving him an advantage now?

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:51

Well, I think I think trauma in general, does, you know, whether we, whether we like it or not, you know, you just got to look, look at the history books, in some ways. There's, there's, there's a lot of people that have come from quite traumatic experiences, that have then developed mental toughness, and I'm not just talking about tennis here, talking about in life, that, that and that's not to say you can't be mentally tough, if you if you haven't had a trauma, but But quite often these things can be to the advantage of the person if used in the right way. You know, and I think perspective is the right word, you know, tennis, the perspective is, is everyone actually because you're unless you are a generational talent to who gets everyone put on a plate from a very early age, because you just saw good, you are going to go through hell and back, you're going to, you're gonna, you're gonna have such difficult moments. And you're gonna have so many doubts and fears and questions, and why am I doing this? And is this the right thing for me and why I don't have any money, and I'm wasting my money, and my friends are doing this, and my friends are doing that. And you're going to challenge it. And, and I think people that tend to have a bit of a bigger purpose, a bigger, a bigger picture that they are playing for, tend to be the ones that find that inner strength. And, you know, that brings me on to probably my biggest learning from from this conversation is, is this whole concept of life being a continuum, you know, and continually learning continually getting better. And, you know, if we go through Ryan's ranking, which is a byproduct of the work that's put in his his ranking has gradually progressed each and every year. And, and he talked about it a lot day in day out, you know, can he get a little bit better today a little bit better tomorrow. And and continually doing that, and, and when the playing career comes to an end? It's the same thing, because it's not then a big dramatic change. It's just okay, well, I continue to get a little bit better. And the next day comes along, and I keep putting that work in. And I have no doubt that somebody like Ryan Pennington, will, will go on and have a fantastic career after his playing, because of that perspective, because of that mindset. And that outlook, that he's not catastrophizing, things, which we can all be guilty of doing. So I think that that mindset that freshness of mindset was was great to hear. I think we learn a lot about the mindset of a player from an interview. And I certainly see him continuing to make those progressions on the court. And when eventually time comes for him to move into a different area. I'm sure he's going to continue to be successful and progress as a person, as well as a tennis player.

Victoria Kiernan  1:08:51

Well, we'll certainly be following and backing him from afar. And I'm personally looking forward to seeing the hashtag screwing you down.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:59

Yeah, me too. Me too, as well, you know, I get I get paid. Well, I don't get paid actually to do this. But if I did get paid, I'd get paid to make an ask those questions. You know, and I think it is, as Ryan said, it's a valid question. You know, there's been plenty British players over the years that have made their name on the grass courts. They've they've had their big results. Now granted, it's often just one big result. You know, Ryan has 678 to build on and, and I personally think I will be seeing screw you down because I think he is the real deal. I think we're going to see a top 100 player for the next few years. And in order to do that, you have to do it on the different surfaces. And Ryan, I have no doubt I have complete faith in you. But I am expecting still to see the hashtag.

Victoria Kiernan  1:09:48

And as Dan said at the start, it's international podcast day to day which has given us a couple of minutes just to kind of take a step back and have a chat about our year and how much we're still enjoying the show. and how much Dan's chats were, how much we're getting from them really and learning all the time. And just an opportunity as well to say thank you to you for listening and tuning in. And I hope you're learning as much as we are as well.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:14

Next week, we have Eric Butorac coming to the show, and when we talk about continuous progression, he's a great one because he's a few years ahead of Ryan Pennington, but a similar sort of story, you know, went went to college US college, actually went to a division three US college, went on to be a Grand Slam finalist in In doubles, you know how to fantastic doubles, Korea and has then gone on now. He's been tournament director in Cincinnati over the last 12 months, and also as the director of player liaison manager for the USDA. So someone that continues to grow will bring a brilliant insight. So that's the one to look forward to and as ever, lots more guests coming your way. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan. And we are control the controllables