Colin Fleming: Playing, Coaching and Commentating on the Best in Tennis

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 214, of Control the Controllables. And it's a big hello from Melbourne, Australia as we move into week two, and the quarter final stages here at the Australian Open 2024. And the weather has cooled down after an extremely hot first few days at the open, the crowds continue to grow. The intensity is rising as we get closer to finding out who our champions are. And we also have the champions of the future that are playing, whether it's Hannah Klugman from Great Britain who is an exciting star to watch. Or as we saw, at last year's Australian Open Mirra Andreeva, who was then had an incredible run to the last 16. Here, in the real event, there's so much tennis to watch. And if you want to know who we picked our star panelists here at Control the Controllables Episode 213, you'll be able to see our picks, see how we're doing. And you may be might even be able to check out my little dark horse for the women's title who may or may not still be going. And there's certainly been lots of banter flying around on the Whatsapp group with the panelists and my dark horse is in the quarterfinals. But they're not giving me that as success yet. So before I move into today's fantastic guest, I just want to have a last little shout out. If you get two minutes, if you feel that we deserve it, we will leave a link in the show notes because we have been shortlisted for the Sports Podcast Awards to be the best Racquet Sports Podcast of the year. It's an award that is very special to us. It's an award that, yeah, if you feel that we do deserve a vote, if you take a lot from these episodes, then we would truly appreciate you giving us a couple of minutes of your time to show your support for us. And as for today's guest, he's a cracker actually someone who I've known for many, many years, anyone in the tennis world who has come across Colin Fleming will know what a great guy is, first and foremost, you know, he's now doing a fantastic job as a broadcaster on many different radio and TV stations. And he was as high as number 17 in the world as a men's doubles player. He's got a different story, but a story that I think is important to be told because you'll hear me talking a lot about role modeling in tennis. And we often pick the superstars that we see on the TV. Well, Colin Fleming, you'll see from his story, he went a different way around. And it wasn't always a direct way to being a top 20 player in the world. And he even called it a day at one point and for him to talk through that in such good detail. He was a partner of Andy Murray, in various stages of his career. And I won't tell you how many Control the Controllable guests he's played doubles with, because that is part of the episode. But it is a few and he shares some stories on those. And we delve into the future of tennis we delve into many different topics. And I know you're gonna love it. So I'm gonna pass you over to Colin Fleming. So Colin Fleming a big welcome to Control the Controllables How you doing?

Colin Fleming  04:05

Yeah, very well Dan. Thank you. Great to be great to be on with you. I was wondering if I might ever get the call. So here we are. We're on the other side of the world, but great to be with you.

Daniel Kiernan  04:17

You've been on a long list for for a long time. You know, this list has just been kind of whittled away. But I heard with your technical issues. I also thought maybe we weren't going to get it going today. So finally you got the Zoom working and I guess a man of your stature now Flembo You don't normally have to deal with your own technological issues.

Colin Fleming  04:40

If only that were true, well that will do it and listen if you're running out of people and you've ended up with me, it's okay you can just tell me

Daniel Kiernan  04:47

And we're both in Melbourne which is pretty cool. You know and I think anybody in the in the tennis world that goes to Melbourne once in January I think always wants to be here but because it's just this time of year to the Aussie summer, there's so much going on. I think Europe's kind of the place to avoid in these months. So how's how's your Melbourne experience been over over the last couple of weeks?

Colin Fleming  05:14

Look, Melbourne. It's just, it's absolute pleasure, isn't it coming down here at this time of year, as you say it's freezing cold at home, I think it was minus eight in the car the other day when my wife was taking the kids to school. So I'm trying not to send too many pictures home, that's for sure. But look is a great time of year to come. But the nice thing is having been coming to Melbourne for so long now that I kind of feel not at home, but very familiar with the place. So I'm almost like pretending I live here for a couple of weeks when I come rather than doing the tourist thing and seeing the sights. But it's more than just the weather, isn't it? I mean, the Australian Open, the lead up events are great, but the Australian Open now is just quiet. It's incredible what it's become even it's unrecognizable from when I first started coming, just the changes made to the site, everything they do for the fans. And now coming here as part of the TV broadcasts, I mean, we get we get so well looked after the tennis has been phenomenal. I think so far. And I've got about what I think I've got five or six more days of covering it Dan, so just looking forward to doing a good job over those days. And then it'd be back to the call in Scotland.

Daniel Kiernan  06:20

And as we get to the business end, I had a little look, look beforehand, because I thought there's been in the men's side, I was like, oh my goodness, how many five setters? It feels like every match has gone down to the wire, certainly the the evening matches as people are kind of starting to consider going to bed and a little look. And there's been 29 so far. And I thought okay, well, is that a lot? I'm not sure. So I looked at it. And over the last six Grand Slams, the average is actually 24 over the tournament. So we are above average on that. It feels as if, as we get towards the end of the tournament. And so I thought that often doesn't bring five setters and I looked at that the average is actually only two per tournament in the second week of a Grand Slam. And people are talking we bring this question up in the quickfire round normally, but I'm gonna ask you now, men's tennis, three sets or five?

Colin Fleming  07:22

That's a great question, isn't it? Because it's a loaded question. Can I justify my answer? Or did you just want a quick answer?

Daniel Kiernan  07:28

No, you can justify away. Look,

Colin Fleming  07:32

I think I think it's the ultimate test specified in the slams. And I think the nice thing is, as long as we play best to fight, we can somewhat compare eras. So we can see what Java which is doing now is comparable to players that have gone before because it's the same format of the game. So I think I'm I think I'm still best of five, but maybe not as strong than that as it might have been a couple of years ago, because working in the sport from a, you know, a broadcast side now. And as a fan, as well, the sport's getting very long. It's getting very slow. I think that you know, I don't necessarily sit here with all the solutions. But I think all the evidence is out there that the average length of matches is going up. And it's great if you've got time to sit and digest the full sort of five set or isn't it? But you know, it's tough to sit down for five hours. I mean, I've commented on two matches already here Dan that were four hours 59 They're epics, but it's a long time, isn't it? So? I'm best of five. I'm still in that boat. But I think I think we've got to look at maybe just trying to speed things up a little bit again.

Daniel Kiernan  08:43

Yeah, it's certainly a long time when it finishes at 3:39am. You know, that's, that's completely mental. You know, and I think I think that were my I know a lot of people have said second week, make it five sets. And like I said, those stats show quite often. The second week doesn't bring the five set thrillers that we that we're after. I did see a tweet from Mark Petchey yesterday, or maybe even earlier on today saying that, look, we can't lose the history and the tradition of the five sets. But we have to find a way of people not sitting on their backsides for so long in between change of ends, not taking so long in between points. Obviously, as coaches. We're trying to teach our players use your time use your routines, but as a spectacle, that certainly drags it out.

Colin Fleming  09:32

Yeah, and I think you look at some you look at two players that comes to mind for me, Daniil Medvedev for watch last night when he's he's getting to the line with 20 seconds still on the shot clock. Yeah, Andre ruble, as well. You know, they play with such flow, such a rhythm. I think the shot clock has slowed things down. It's still very subjective when the umpires start that the reality is it's probably more like 30, 35 seconds. I would say it's probably on average 30 seconds between points most matches, and it's supposed to be a 25 second rule. So I think that needs addressed that slowed things down. Even things like after one love played play was supposed to be continuous, it's now at least a one minute sort of change over, the whole game has just just really slowed down. And you're right, from coaches and players point of view, you want to use that time to optimize your performance, don't you, but I find it frustrating. But look, I don't want to sit here and kind of be negative about it. Because the tennis is phenomenal. The reason we're getting the five setters is because the depth and the game has never been better. I think the level of the sport continues to increase. big believer that sort of the champions are tomorrow about the champions of today, I really feel that, you know, the players are going to continue to take the game to a new level. So that's exciting. But I think we just got to try and keep things fresh, keep things punchy and moving when we get these matches going. Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  10:55

it certainly feels like the gap is not as big as it's ever been, you know, it feels like I mean, look at all of the seeds that are falling look at the young guns that are coming through, we often see it start of the year. You know, I always think that's an interesting time. You know, people have finished the 2023 maybe played the Davis Cup finals in Malaga maybe played the Billie Jean King Cup finals in Seville, maybe not 100% prepared mentally or physically, I think we saw that with Jess Pegula, probably, you know, all the player in 2023, where some of these young guns have maybe been having a bit a little bit longer to prepare, and still have that kind of freshness. And often as the year goes on, it steadies into the names that we know. But I just want to take in Flem, but before we start looking into you your your story as we as we always do on the podcast, you mentioned the broadcasting and you do a great job. And I'm not just saying that, you know, I always, always enjoy your commentary. I've I've I love on court interviews. It's something I think Jim Courier brought to us a few years ago at the Australian Open and I've seen you've been doing that as well this year. So tell me about that. You know, how how's that been going? How are you preparing for that? How do you get your questions right? You know, you're dealing with a player, I guess what I love about it is you're dealing with a player right at that moment where the emotion is high, that raw emotion and you can you can get some little gems out of them because of that.

Colin Fleming  12:24

Yes, good question. It's not something I've got a huge amount of experience with Dan, if I'm honest with you. I think I first started doing that here in Australia. They do a lot of stuff with the broadcast here. That's a lot of fun. Actually. You know, I work as a freelancer mainly on sort of world feeds in the sport. I do a lot for the ATP tour. I work here in Australia, USTA for the US Open and for the BBC at Wimbledon, etc. But here in Australia attempt they like to do a bit different so we do a lot of court side commentary. So we've got two commentators in the in the in the booth, I'll be courtside and I've tended to get that role a fair amount. And that tends to come with doing the on court interview as well. So I feel more comfortable doing it now than when I first did, let me tell you that I used to sort of be like, you know, mind blanking, because I didn't want to stand there with a bit of paper and looked like a complete rookie. So I felt quite, I felt quite rigid with my pre prepared questions, and I was gonna stick to those. But I think the best advice I've had and the best interviewers is it's a little bit more of a discussion. So I tried to go in there with I tried to strike the balance between being pre prepared and going with the actual conversation in the interview as well. Now, hopefully that comes across, but I'll probably have three or four questions up my sleeve tend to ask them a very standard first question about the match or how the feeling to have achieved something for the first time or whatever it might be. I try to get something specific at the match because I don't just want to go on there and ask them straight away about their latest Instagram story. Or, you know, I like to I like to hear something from them about the match. So for example, we're recording this the day after Cam Norrie's great win against Casper Ruud, and he came to the net so many times and he was mixing in the drop shot. So I wanted to ask him about that you know, I wanted to hear from him about his game. And then you know, try and have maybe take it off the back of where they go or stick to some pre prepared questions about possible fun stuff, what they've been doing about the city but try and keep it try and ask the relevant questions to the match ultimately and not just be too prepared and robotic with like I'm going to ask you this no matter what's happened so look, I'm still considering myself inexperienced of getting more relaxed with doing it. I enjoy it. So I appreciate the kind words I'll keep trying to keep trying to improve on that one.

Daniel Kiernan  14:48

Where do you take this one? So I was I was doing a little bit of commentary the other night, the Mannarino, Shelton match and as it finished, I don't know the name of the guy yet an Aussie guy came on the court, he said to Mannarino, good question, you know, look, you're 35 years old. In the last 12 months, you've won more tournaments and had more success than the previous 12 years. What's the secret? And he said tequila, it was, in the on call individual, you could see was like, oh, where? Where does this now go? He wasn't quite sure. So I'm putting that to you. You got Mannarino in front of you. You ask him that. And he tells you that tequila is the reason for his for his turn in form over the last 12 months.

Colin Fleming  15:36

Yeah, I think. I think that's where, like, I see you've got to, you've got to be listening to what the player is saying, you can't just have you set questions, because that will really throw you if you're just like, Oh, I just wanted a good answer and move on to my next question. So where would I have taken that? I probably would have taken that try to try to make a joke. It means a fun situation, right? You got to have some fun with them and maybe say, You know what, we'll see you on the, on the beach bar after the match or something like that, you know, have a bit of fun with it. Because, yeah, it can it can throw you it really can and your worst nightmare in that situation is like a one word answer. You sort of think if I ask them that and they just say yes, or you know, whatever, but the reality is, they, they, they want to, they want to look good, they want the crowd to come into it. So most of the players are very, very good and sort of even help you if you find yourself in a little bit of a hole so on the whole I've not had too many or any bad experiences yet and I'm hoping that lasts

Daniel Kiernan  16:35

Keep up the good work on that. I think that's brilliant. I think that's the sort of stuff for me that actually brings eyeballs to our sport as well you know, I think these these type of answers like I love Cam as well talking, you know, getting the crowd involved and telling them they've obviously enjoyed their beers in on the Saturday afternoon you know, these This opens up the sort of things that are what opens up the more normal casual fan into the sport so I think I think you do a great job, the guys at the Aussie Open do, but I now need to take you back I need to take you back to to a cold country where we're in the summer here in Melbourne but life didn't start in the sun for you you know life started I believe in Scotland. I believe you're born and bred obviously had a successful playing career yourself. But give us a little overview. You know how How did tennis get into your world? How did tennis get into your blood?

Colin Fleming  17:30

Yeah, sure. So yeah, absolutely right. Born and raised in Scotland in a town called Litheroe, just west of of Edinburgh and the central belt between Edinburgh and Glasgow. And crucially within about a 30 minute drive from Sterling, University of Stirling. So I'll take you all the way back and try and fly through it. But I started at my local club. My dad was, you know, a member he was on the tennis committee and he loves to play. I've got an older brother four years older. Michael who some people might know played, got got to sort of county level for the north of Scotland. And an older sister Laura, who also played county tennis and she's six years older. So I always had lots of people to play with. I was always hanging around the club. My dad actually I remember the back of our house. I was always, you know, begging someone to take me to play tennis. We had a set of sort of split level house. So there was quite a big wall at the back and he took away the whole lawn and paved it. And we drew a net on the back of the house. And I still think that I still think like why did I end up kind of with the skill set of got at the net volley and I think it was spending time on that wall just playing on that, you know, gave me that feel for that sort of stuff. But anyway, I digress because I then really went through sort of playing playing locally got picked up quite early into central district which covered sort of north of where I lived through up to Sterling Dunblane, crucially, you know where this is going, but at that time, Judy Murray was obviously the district coach, Central District coach she I still remember she had a lot of things like a Vauxhall Astra with the central district tennis sticker in the back window. And we started going to maybe one session a week that was that was at Sterling University. I think the indoor courts then were built there in 1994. If I'm not mistaken, I.

Daniel Kiernan  19:22

They've got some use of them those courts.

Colin Fleming  19:25

My goodness. But I mean, what they've what they've, I mean, it's the perfect storm, because that's where we trained, you know, myself, Andy Jamie. And then eventually Judy went on to be the national coach, I moved through that journey. And, you know, David Brewer, Jamie Baker, on the boys side. You know, a lot of players Karen Patterson, you remember, you know, Nicholas Slater, we had a whole load of Scottish players. Apologies to anyone that listens to this and I've left you out because we're a great group. I kind of move through that then. But I wasn't like a standout International junior like a lot of these even some of the names of named there were or a lot of professional players and being able to sort of very good Scottish level, decent British level junior, to give you a feel, I think I lost first round of 18s nationals and made the final the consolation, something like that, you know, I was I was okay, I played a handful of ITFs in my time, but I never really thought I was going to have a career in the professional game and I went from from school to Stirling University again here on on a scholarship and I kind of developed quite late physically and that's when my level really improved through that physical development and working hard on the courts there with Ewan McGinn as the coach still is or is still around that that set up you know, Tennis Scotland but and it was two or three years into my degree that I really started to make an impact on Futures and, and then you know, went from there initially took a couple of years out to play full time, got to a decent level got to about 360 singles, 180 in doubles. But I was absolutely miserable Dan I was I was totally burnt out depressed, didn't really think I was going to make it traveling alone. Maybe I was just too young to I don't know. But I decided to basically stop playing altogether, go back, finish my degree get a job, which which I did this was in 2006/0, it was only about 10 months into a graduate job down where I decided I want to give tennis a proper golf. So I came back in 2008 and played all the way through to 2016 full time and managed to make my way on the main sort of tour playing doubles. And that was that was kind of my plane journey, I still pinch myself that it actually happened. Because I just I just followed a passion. I wasn't sort of setting out to be a pro. I just love the game still do love the game. And I've sort of gone on from from there. 2017 January 17, I took up a role at Tennis Scotland when I first started stopped playing still kept a bit of commentary on the side. Because I've always enjoyed it, I'd started it while I was while I was sort of in the last couple years in my playing career. And since finishing with Tennis Scotland, I've gone pretty much full time into the commentary and the broadcast side and and here we are today. So it's been quite a journey. consider myself very lucky to still be following your passion, like I say and working in the sport.

Daniel Kiernan  22:22

I don't need to ask you anything else you've told us at all.

Colin Fleming  22:25

Apologies for that. Fire away any questions. It's quite a different journey.

Daniel Kiernan  22:32

It is, and I think the thing for me Flembo. And why I have been so keen on getting you on is I think it's the perfect role model story. And anyone that regularly listens to Control the Controllables knows I'm big on this. As much as I love Carlos Alcaraz and Iga Swiatek, I think they're a problem for parents and youngsters, because they are role models. Of course they are because of the way they handle themselves the way that they are. They're fantastic young people who you know, just, but they're also generational talents, you know, and it's not the story, it's not the story that you can copy and paste, yet we kind of hold ourselves to that. And then always feel like we're failing. You know, whereas we take your story, and there's so many things I want to jump into, from what you've said, and hopefully, I'll be able to do it, I will be able to do it in a way that people take a lot from. But that is more normal, you know, you've picked up a sport you've you've and that's probably the starting point for me, I've got a big thing on third child syndrome, I was the third of four. And and I feel there is a bit of an advantage there because you start things a bit earlier. You know, you you know your brother or your sister are doing things and I'm quite big on constraints led approach. And I think when you're the third child, you're naturally developing skills without knowing you are because they're, they're throwing balls around and you at age one are trying to catch balls and do this with that might come a little bit later if you're the first child. So that's the first bit that I picked up on and I had a little smile. I thought great that fits into my theory. You know, probably 90 said doesn't but that's okay. Well forget that. The second bit is I listened to, I listen to a lot of podcasts and I listened to a podcast about three or four years ago that really kind of struck with me and it was all about constraints led approach. And this guy had gone around I guess and become an expert in that field. And he talked about how the issue in households nowadays is that parents are always saying no, they want whereas actually the best developmental playground is actually a messy house, a house where kids are able to do what they want and which obviously there's got to be a line. But I think what you described on the wall was exactly like mine. I remember like watching, pretending I was Steffi Graf or Stefan Edberg or Boris Becker. And we actually had grass on my on our wall. So I couldn't really let it bounce if I did let it bounce was a bad bounce. So the dexterity and all of those little things that you you had to do to pick the ball up or pretend I was Boris Becker dive in to make a, an angled volley or whatever it may be. And my son, I remember, we had a fireplace when we were young. And he always worked, we'd have a softball and be hitting the ball off above the fireplace. And my wife had gone, he can't do that. And when she was out, I was just like, No, no, I'm gonna let him do it. Because I'm literally like watching him have to open the racket face and change the angle and do this. And actually, my son now plays tennis. And the one thing he has that not many kids his age have is he has a nice slice. He has real nice feel at the net. And I'm absolutely convinced that comes from the environment that that you're in. And I guess you as if I'd throw that back to a little bit you as someone who is a very good coach. And again, you you won't say it but you that your reputation as a coach is also very good. And that's someone I want to get to it a little bit down the line, as a coach and as somebody who has an impact has a voice within Scottish tennis. What's your solution for that? Because I know Judy was also big on skill development with you guys at a young age. Whereas maybe the game has gone a little bit more repetition volume, you know, only play tennis when you've got a coach on court. And we've maybe lost a little bit of that.

Colin Fleming  26:48

Yes, a lot of interesting points. And one was sitting here as a father of a nine year old daughter and a seven year old son, um, I was reflecting on things as you talk there as well. And I definitely think it shaped me. I mean, I was the same when I was young. We had this we were short tennis, then didn't we the sponge balls and the plastic rackets and I've talked about the wall outside, but if it was raining, I'd be inside playing against the sort of living room wall and hitting balls and just had that passion for it. I think just bring it back to my kids journey. My daughter now is really into gymnastics and I love I love watching her she's just in the house just cracking on doing it in the same way I was, just got that passion. And that we've now got this gymnastics beam beam in the hall, which I'm sure I'm going to trip over one night in the middle of night, I'm going to come down and go head over heels on this thing. But I love just leaving it out there and letting her play.

Daniel Kiernan  27:37

Probably not, probably not as athletically as she does

Colin Fleming  27:41

Exactly, yeah, she lands on her feet. I'll be landing on my head, I'm sure but yeah, I think I think the environment in that respect is is really important. I think, you know, you mentioned Judy there. I mean, I think it's fair to say she was big on the ball skills over drills, I'm sure if she would probably put it or something like that, where it was, it was more about like setting setting tasks or set setting situations and figuring out ways to solve it, rather than being taught how to hit a lot or something like that. It was like, you know, figuring out and and being in that situation and having to develop that skill. So yeah, I think I think it's an interesting one, because I think your point about Alcatraz and Sinner, and I would say Andy Murray, you know, coming from from Scotland, who is a world number one, I totally get your point that it's hard to relate to his people that are that far ahead of everyone else that for everyone else. But I do think if you can try and I think when you're young, of course, you have to dream, but I think you can understand that these these players are putting in so much hard, smart work as well, you know, to develop their games and follow their passion. It's not like they just get there by just, you know, nobody teaches them anything, and they just, they just play and they're eventually going to get there, you know, it's still to this day, the amount of work and dedication they put in is quite extraordinary. You know, it's so I think understanding that they're normal people as well, they are but they just you know, they have that ability and sort of passion and capacity for the work and the ability to do things quickly. I think it's as important.

Daniel Kiernan  29:17

To jump in on that I am completely with that. And just to I guess clarify my point. I think my point is more around. There's there's layers of success and there's different success measures for me you have had an incredibly successful tennis career. And it's now it's now taken you to Melbourne and the heights of the game in a broadcasting capacity you've you've worked with Andy you know you've worked on the Billie Jean King Cup team you've worked at the very highest levels as a coach as a broadcaster and as and as a player. You probably don't have the same bank balance as Carlos Alcaraz, you know, but it's like, it's I think it's important that people know that there's many ways to succeed in this journey and in this sport? Yeah, absolutely not. And that's I think the point that I'm certainly trying to bring through within these podcasts of saying, look, there's all of these different stories. If you get your head down, you work hard at something, you have passion, you have determination, you throw your heart and soul at it. There's you almost can't not succeed, you know, and so, but success, success will look very different to every different individual. And that's the point I'm making on on the role modeling of someone like yourself, I think it's a really important role modeling story. It's certainly not putting down what these amazing athletes have done.

Colin Fleming  30:44

I agree with you Dan, I sit here and think that what I achieved in the sport is achievable. For so many others, I don't see myself as like I was anything special. You know, and I've had a good career in the sport. A big, a big moment for me is a lot of it's Dan, I think to do with your own self belief, and where you see yourself going. And then also the people you have, in your circle, if you like, it might be a coach, it might be a parent, it might be your best pal, it might be a girlfriend, or a wife or whoever it is that helps you to really believe in yourself. I mean, for me, the biggest, standout person and moment for me was when I first first ever met Louis Cayer, that was when when my sort of whole career changed. It was it was Jamie Murray and I 2006. We met him at the Chelsea harbor club in the summer, just before the grass court season. So he moved over to the UK, I think we were maybe the first players that worked with him in the UK, he'd come over, and Judy put us in touch with with Louis. And it's sort of like, Jamie and I were very similar. Guys were quite similar personalities, you know, we were probably better players than we realized. At that time, we're ranked like 120. In doubles. We're doing all right, in some challengers and still trying to play singles and stuff. And we met with Louis, and he's sitting there at reception in the Chelsea Harbor club. We just sat down and had had a meeting there before we even went on court. And he said, so guys, you know, what's your goal? almost straight away. And we were so lucky that we were just little boys, then, you know, we were so timid, you know, we're sitting at 120 in the world and doubles and I think we looked to each other, we're like, maybe top 100? You know, and it's like a Louie, Louie, literally, I think he might even have physically got up and he said, I'm not interested in working with you. And we were just like, Oh, my God, you know, this is like, I never felt so out of my comfort zone, you know, and he's like, you know, I've watched videos of you play. I know, the level because I've worked with, you know, the Nestor's and the players at the highest level that have won slams had been more on number one. And I'm only interested in working with you, I see the potential, but I'm only interested if the goal is number one in the world, win slams, Tour Finals achieve these things. And we were so afraid of that, you know, we're so like, Oh, my, it's not really a British thing. But it's definitely not Scottish thing to talk in that way. I'm going to be this and that. And you know, I mean, we were so but then to be able to work with someone like that, who knew the level and was telling you they believed you could get to that level? Suddenly, it was like, you know, I can be like, I can be that I can I can go and do that. And then that's, I think in British doubles. Talk about a well trodden path now, there's such a path to go. Well, I really hope that people look at me and go, well, Colin did pretty well, but it's nothing special. I don't think I wasn't as special Why can I not get to that? Why can I not go and do that. And people should be looking at the current players now you know, that are playing singles, doubles with right work, why can I not go and go and get close to that and believe in yourself, but you need people around me as well. So I was very fortunate in that regard with Louis,

Daniel Kiernan  34:00

Thanks for sharing that because I, I have it not that I have regrets because life is life and it didn't and I love my life. And it's taken away. It's taken me. But I stopped playing the summer of 2005 as British number one doubles player. And I was probably taking that path along the line to where you need to be 130 in the world to be British number one. hope no one else catches you then you get your wild card into Wimbledon each year. Then you rock up and do all right. You know there was 100% a ceiling in place. You know and and I get there's a lot said about Louis and Louis is the impact he has had on so many of us. It's just off the charts. But arguably the biggest impact he has had is exactly that, I think is the removal of a ceiling. You know and a culture and I think there's so much to be learned and you know, I think certainly Andy has helped with that on the singles as well within British tennis. You know He's, he's been relatable to the other players and he's kind of dragged a few along with him as well. Whereas maybe in my era Henneman and Rusedski were almost untouchable, they weren't really a part of the group. So it was happening, but it wasn't really doable for anybody else. And I think that's such an important point that you make, and I think we can all relate that to various forms of our life. You know, and it's Yeah, long may it continue because there is just an absolute line and a conveyor belt now that you guys have led. And Louis', obviously, just been dragging that along. And it's really impressive to see But Rob, I want to take you back to what you said and this is this is probably the from a personal standpoint, probably one of the biggest things that I am curious about with you because I know you said that you know you were struggling almost almost getting depressed with it tennis was wasn't going the way you want it to go even though it was it was okay. You were you were doing okay probably when when you when you look at it, and then you decided to say take some time away from it. What was it that changed and I want to almost use a little bit that I've looked into it from and how I've looked at it myself as from Giffnock to Queens and why I say that is you know, I don't believe you're a professional tennis player but you are playing you know, helping Giffnock, I guess your club win the Scottish Cup, not not not an overly extensive global event. But you know, something has happened in in Scotland and then 12 months later you and Ken Skupski are beating arguably the world's best ever doubles team in the Bryan's that seems it seems mad. So what what was it that happened? How did you go from that kind of dark place to this to this new place that allowed that to happen?

Colin Fleming  36:57

Yeah, it's a good question, Dan, I think I think I mentioned prior when I talked about my story and not being a sort of top international Junior, when I first started to play professional events, which was in a went to university as a 17 year old, in 2001. After two years on a scholarship at Sterling, I remember going to Tunisia, qualified and made semis of a 10k. And that was me like, my first ever ranking points, that's me. Like, I can play Futures now. I went on that went on that journey. So I went back to my third year, third year of a four year degree, kept playing some futures. And at the end of that year, the university were great and came to me and said you can take a year out from your studies, you can still train here for you know, without any cost. You can access Ewan McGinn's coaching the S&C, just represent the university, you know, as an ambassador and sort of wore the patch and tried to promote what that program was when reasonably well took another year out and continue to progress. But that took me up to 2006 Dan which was the summer so Jamie and I met Louis that summer. Yeah, we played Wimbledon as wildcards in the doubles. And I was starting to touch challengers in singles, ranking was like 360, 370, Somewhere about there. We then went to America after a played the challengers Binghamton, Bronx, you remember those? And I think the Bronx is actually my last tournament, I was in a hotel in New York. And I just, I think looking back, I was I was young then. So I'm still would have been sort of 21 and I didn't really I'm very grateful to Sterling Uni and to Ewan McGinn, my coach, who I still consider probably had the biggest influence on my career along with with Louis. But, you know, Ewan wasn't able to travel with me, he didn't necessarily know the levels, I didn't know the levels. So because I wasn't a top junior, because it was always like, this is a year out from uni. I didn't have that belief that like I was going anywhere. I didn't know I didn't think I could make it. So I felt like I was just sort of hitting a bit of a dead end, I felt like I sort of wasn't as good as every one that was out there a bit of an inferiority thing going on. And that's why I decided like this is I'm not going to make it anyway. It's time to do the sensible thing. Go back to my finish my fourth year, get my degree, get a job get on that journey. And that's what I did. But it was it was when I actually you mentioned Giffnock so I kept playing because I still loved the sport. I went back to playing for the University. I kept playing for Giffnock, as you say bit of club tennis,played for a club in Glasgow, I started playing some French league, which was a turning point for me because I went over in sort of the it would have been the spring of 2007 I think and played some French league and I was actually having some pretty good results, you know, still playing a decent level. still beating some good players in singles and doubles. I thought I've not really explored this as far as I'm not only scratched the surface, I don't know how good I can be. And my, my chance to do it is now I can't go back when I'm 35 and go, I want to give it a go now, it's now or never tell you quickly a funny story I was at ScottishPower on a graduate program, a sort of commercial energy trading sort of graduate program and 10 months in, I decided that that was it, I was going back. So I went to see my sort of boss and told him the news, which is a little bit sort of taken aback because obviously they want their graduates to progress instead. And he accidentally copied me in to an email that went to, you know, the sort of higher ups and it's said that Colin has decided to, you know, leave leave the company and go back to pursuing a career in tennis. And then it said the bottom PS, this is not a joke. How often do you get that right in a company this guy's gone back to professional tennis. So that made me laugh. But I think so that was key because it was then it was then like a conscious decision. It wasn't a year out from university anymore. It was like a conscious decision. This is my career. And I've given this everything, I've got to find out how good I can be. So suddenly, it was like I had half my chips in the first time. And now I was like all in consciousness, your vision. This is my career. I want to be as good as I can be. I'd already had that little bit of input from Louis, I had someone that I respected a lot saying you can do this, I had a bit of a feeling. And then it went very quickly from there. Yeah, it took me about a year started back singles and doubles took me about a year to get back to where I was. And I had just the most fun, you can have playing doubles with Ken Skupski, going through Futures, Challengers onto the main tour. It was out of control, to be honest, just just how we rode a wave of good vibes. I mean, we ended up I think in the September of 2009, we we won Metz our first tour event. Then we went the next week or one orally on a one to five challenger, be engrossed John and Olivia passions and the final big wins, then we went straight from there and won St Petersburg Tour event. So we smashed in, like 650 points in three weeks. And it's like, this is just the best thing ever. We're unstoppable. And off we went on a journey. So I'm saying it's, it's key having the right. Exactly, yeah, Alaba, we had to pass once it got made up. I think it's just, it was that conscious decision that I was all in was the difference. And and having some people that really could believe that believed in me and could show me the path were two key things that I had.

Daniel Kiernan  42:28

I wrote a couple of notes down there, because I think it is incredibly educational what you've just said there. And the three things that I summarized, actually were awareness of standards, I don't think we quite appreciate how important that is not just standards of playing, but standards of being standards of habits, standards of you know, daily routines, standards of what you're like on the practice court off the practice, core, all of those all of those bits, then it's an all in thing, it's not a timeline, you know, I'm a massive believer, give it a go for a year is the biggest load of nonsense ever. It never works to give it a go a year, because a year in tennis is just boon. And the second the second that you are timelined to something, it brings a very natural stress and anxiety because you're trying to control an outcome in such a short space of time. You know, and it just, it just isn't something that works from a mentality standpoint. And then my last bit would be also not setting any ceilings, you know, of just like, hey, look, let's we stick to our process. We crack on, let's see where this takes us. And let's not, let's not ceiling it by being like you and Jamie at 120 in the world, or we might be top 100. So you know, let's just see where it takes us. Because you just don't know and everyone else is human beings as well that are dealing with what you're dealing with. So I thank you for sharing that. Because I think that's I think that's a great story to share. Now, I want to just go into a couple of highlights that I've picked up from your career and you you had a fantastic playing career. I have to ask you about you know, 2013 was was a big year for British tennis because sir Andy Murray won Wimbledon, you know, and at that point, it was well, he still is but it was off the charts in terms of Andy Murray was the most famous sports person that we that we have. And you I believe a few weeks after that went on court with him, you know, to play the Masters 1000 event in Canada. You know, I would imagine that was the hot ticket in town whether Andy Murray's playing singles, doubles, triples. Doesn't matter. People want to watch that. Tell us about that experience.

Colin Fleming  44:50

Yeah, that was that was quite something, to be honest with you. I was obviously there I was playing with Jonny Marray in 2013. Because Because my good friend Ross Hutchins was off the Tour with his illness with Hodgkin's lymphoma. And I was playing with Johnny Marrayy that that year, Johnny obviously won Wimbledon 2012. So I think his points had maybe dropped off, just dropped off. And I think I was slightly above him in the rankings. So the reason that's relevant, we were struggling to get into Cincinnati, excuse me, Montreal, we got into Cincy the next week, but we're struggling to get into Montreal. It was the old onsite sign ins then Dan, and I'm sort of like, Johnny, you know, I think I think Andy might be up for playing. I think me and him can get in together. And Johnny being the guy is was like go for it. I'll try and find someone else. So this was 10 minutes before the 12 o'clock deadline. And obviously Andy is with Ivan Lendl, then who sort of I've spoken to a little bit through his his relationship with Andy, but I thought this is a bit awkward, because Andy was on the practice court with 10 minutes to the deadline. So I basically had to run out to his court and stop is practice with Lendl there and I'm thinking this guy is just going to like crush me. Let's see Andy look, I'm not getting in the doubles. Would you be up for playing? And being the guy he is he always wanted to try and give us a leg up. You know, he understood the situation he was up for playing. So that first of all was was was brilliant. And I think when things like that happen, how often does it end up being a good week, because it's sort of like a just a spur of the moment. Expectations are like you're relaxed, let's just have a go. And the other interesting thing about that was Andy lost his first singles match. You remember, so he obviously had a bye. And if memory serves, he lost to Gulbis in a pretty, not great performance. And we were, we were scheduled for doubles the same day, our first round against Leander Paes which is a pretty tough draw. And I'm sitting there going, I don't know how to play this, like, do I go to him and just say, look, and if you want to pull out, don't worry, it was a bonus to get in any way. Or if you want to play the match and just be relaxed, you know, whatever. And I just thought, you know what, I'm just going to do neither of those things. I'm going to go in the gym, and I'm going to do the best warmup I've ever done in my life. So the Andy will sort of see that I'm like, I'm on it and professional because that's the way he works, right? He's no interest in playing with someone that's just going to mess around and not be professional. I'm just going to get in there. I'm going to show that I'm ready. And I've never seen someone play a match like Andy played that evening against Stepanek and Paes. I don't know whether it was frustration from a singles coming out or what it was. It was just lights out absolute lights out. I just had to sort of like, do my bit, get my serve in, make a couple of returns. And he was just going to I mean, it was unbelievable the way he took over the court. Because obviously I mean, I remember the Leander Paes used to stand quite close to the baseline to return and we go I formation on the deuce side and Andy's serving absolute rockets down the tee and Leander's just, he's just watching them go past them every time I was like Andy, just keep doing that mate, we're gonna be okay. Right? It's just incredible. But that's the type of guy he was he wanted to do it for me as much as anything or for Jamie if he's playing with his brother or for for Delgy or for whoever he was playing with, you know, he wanted to succeed for them. And we just we just carried on from there. There was nothing to lose. We were very relaxed. We beat a lot of good teams have not got the best memory from matches Dan, in fact, I get a lot of stick about it. Some people remember specific points of matches. Yeah, I'd be struggling to remember exactly everyone we played that week, but I think I think we played Rojer and Qureshi, maybe in the quarters. And I'll tell you a last funny story. I hope Andy doesn't give me give me a hard time for telling you we're playing the semi finals. This is his sense of humor, right? People think he's dry and he doesn't say anything. We're playing Lindstedt and Nestor, on the Center Court, which I find quite difficult sometimes on these big courts to track the ball sort of pick up the ball and play well. So I was sort of just you know, a little tight. It's a big match doing my thing. Robert Lindstedt started the match, like on fire I think he hit like the first 10 points he hit about six winners we're a break down. Three love them. I'm thinking this is going to be like this is going to be tough if he keeps that up. And then he just lost it. I think he lost the flight of a ball on the Center Court missed the volley and completely fell apart. I think we maybe won the next six games 6-3. Lindstedt takes a toilet break and then I sit down and we're sort of you know doing our thing towel drinking and he turns to me says, surprised he needs the toilet after we just took a dump on the courtou think he's gonna come back? I mean, in that moment, you know, and all the nerves just released just relaxed into the match and felt so much better from there. It just was such a such a dry sense of humor. Sorry, Robert Linstedt if you're if you're listening to this Yeah, he's a good friend as well and I'm sure he wouldn't mind but there was nothing personal just a really a really fun moment. And there are great great memories playing with Andy great memories playing with Andy in some Davis Cup matches as well. There's some of the highlights of my career for sure.

Daniel Kiernan  49:56

Brilliant, and you meant you mentioned Ross and you've I mentioned all of the good guys helping you out. But I think this says a lot about you Flembo Because obviously what Ross went through and the whole tennis world at that time was, was shocked, you know, you don't expect it for, to hear that news from someone who's young, who's healthy, who, you know, all, all of the kinds of boxes wouldn't necessarily go towards someone dealing with such such such a difficult medical situation. But you stuck by him at that time, you know, and when he came back and your ranking had risen, and you were in a position, I would imagine probably Ross wasn't fully ready to play to the level that he was before before the illness. And in in a world a selfish world. You know, it's a beautiful world, the tennis world, but it is people are taught to be selfish, think of your own career. It's a short career. But when he came back, you were there, you jump back on court with him as as his doubles partner, you didn't you didn't flinch. And I just think it's important that we say that on record, what a what a really cool thing. I think that was for you to put your friendship and put your, your relationship before your own personal career at that point.

Colin Fleming  51:13

Yeah, that was very kind of you to say, I appreciate that, Ross was is always will be, you know, one of my closest friends, even though we don't see a lot of each other now, when we do see each other, it's like, we've never been away. So I think I can understand why people might have been surprised at that. But to be honest, it was never there's never a doubt for me. We were a team Ross was coming back to the tour and you know, fully believed and wanted it to be successful again, so don't don't have any regrets about that at all. Ross obviously came back in 2014 but just I just don't think ever quite got back to feeling as comfortable as he had been on the court always prided himself on how physically, you know, fit he was Ross and professionally never gave anything away in terms of if he was feeling anything, just just don't think it was quite there for him. So didn't work out. But I appreciate appreciate the kind words it was It wasn't even a consideration in my mind that we were, we were a team we were we still are great pals. And we could go on and do something. So it's just the way it works out. You know, maybe another time, it could have gone even better. But I'm so proud now of what Ross has gone on to do. First of all, starting at Queens is the tour director. And now the job he's doing at the ATP. So yeah, that says that's the way it goes Dan, just proud he's a great friend still.

Daniel Kiernan  52:30

Yeah. And that's I want to mention it because it's that stuff is stronger, deeper longer than any ranking ever will be. You know, and that's the stuff that that's the stuff that we all remember. And I think it's a it's an important it's an important thing for us to shine a light on.

Colin Fleming  52:49

The backstabbing now Dan that goes on in the double circuit. Apparently worse now than ever.

Daniel Kiernan  52:58

I mean, and I've said it on this on this show a few times. Netflix if they want a show follow the doubles guys and girls and and get it get it raw. And I've said it a couple of times now it's like Love Island on steroids. You know, it's like, you know, the relationships and the changes and the this and that. It's yeah, it's it's not good to see you know, it really it really isn't and that's not all pairs. Of course, that's not all people but as I think as a profession, I think a lot of these players are getting it very wrong actually. Because you know, your investment in people in your investment to your values always pays dividends in my opinion, you know, and that's, that's where the focus needs to be a little bit more. You're going to be commentating on on the girls, Gabby Dabrowski and Erin Routliffe, who I'm out here coaching in Australia on their match later on Margaret court arena. So hopefully I buttered you up to give some nice words, but I do have a I do have a few little things I want to go through. And I have one last question before we go into our traditional, Quick Fire Round, which I've added a little twist for you today. National Academy LTA a few years ago, Stirling and Loughborough were selected, whatever people don't have opinions, it doesn't matter what people's are people will always have opinions on that, which is kind of irrelevant. But unfortunately, Sterling has been announced as closing in the next few months. I know you've had various roles within that. Obviously, that was from afar a big opportunity for potentially for Scottish tennis. You know, it was great to see that. Scotland, I'm a Northeastern England boy and I always felt we were isolated. And you know, Scottish tennis is even further up. Why hasn't it worked up there over the last five years?

Colin Fleming  54:52

Yeah, it's a great question. One I've not really been asked to be honest. Which is interesting. I think, you know, I was involved during my time working full time at Tennis Scotland in this sort of process and the bid to win the National Academy, which we were all very excited about, you know, tennis Scotland's in a tricky place sometimes because they're obviously the governing body for the sport in Scotland but you also have this sort of overarching LTA and they're funded by the LTA along with Sport Scotland. So that was the sort of strategy if you like on assignment Timson, wasn't it the LTE were going down in the sort of RPDCs, and the two national academies, and we wanted to be ambitious. And we wanted to bet for the biggest of the highest level of investment we could get in Scotland. And we felt like why not sort of have British players, you know, that hopefully will benefit Scottish players as well. Why is it why has it not been a success? Well it's a great question, isn't it? I mean, I think I think what I'd like to say on that my personal opinion, I kind of disagree with the strategy, which I know sounds silly, because I'm saying I was involved in the original bid. And now the structure to sort of centralize even more with one Academy in Loughborough, we wanted to bid bid for that Tennis Scotland and like I said, to be as ambitious as I can, but personally, I think there should be more opportunity more, more, I think we went for a place where there was maybe 50 Odd programs getting a very small bit of funding, so spreading the jam way too thin. And then it was like, Let's do these national academies. And we don't want finance to be a barrier to the to the younger, upcoming juniors, we want a pro style environment. Personally, I think there should be maybe six, eight, you know, regional centers that encompass like, full time players, down into your juniors, you know, funding a good coach in those maybe maybe some assistant coaching that needs to be done like a good physical trainer, and not a lot more than that maybe some access to some more specialized people. I think the National Academy was, personally I think it was too much too soon. At the ages, the players were coming in to have obviously coaching to have S&C to have physio to have nutrition to have psychology to have performance, lifestyle support to have a lot of it was like the kids weren't ready to sort of take that on board. This isn't really answering your question, Dan, this is more philosophy, philosophy, philosophical thing. So I would like to see it where there's more programs in Great Britain, you mentioned like the Northeast Northwest, have won in Scotland have some in the Midlands have, you know, a few down South as well, where there's opportunities for full time players down to your best juniors all the way down to like, you know, you're under 14 under twelves to gain access and, and have that sort of training environment that I think can be so inspirational. Stirling, I think, to answer specifically, your question, why it didn't quite work out. I think it was probably geographically too much of a challenge and maybe not enough, probably didn't come at the right time for for Scotland, maybe not enough Scottish players. And it was obviously based at Stirling University where there is quite quite a demand on the facility that's there, the six indoor courts, we had access to some outdoor courts, but no outdoor courts on site. So those six courts were just like, I mean, the pressure on them, you know, amongst National Academy, the tennis Scotland programs, amongst the university programs, any pay and play, there was morsels of that. I think that was a real challenge of continuing to grow the program in any meaningful way and attract players geographically to, to that my big hope Dan is that tennis Scotland and Scottish tennis which I'm very passionate about as I'm British tennis, but being a Scot comes out in a stronger place from it. So obviously the National Academies leaving but I hope that the LTA are able to support a program in Scotland whereby I think there's a really good core of players now. You know, Aidy McHugh, Ewan Lumsden, Jacob Fernley Hamish Stuart, Connor Thompson. Apologies if I forget anyone Ally Collins, Maya Lumsden, then Anna Brogan, you know, full time Scottish players to have a program there that then juniors can feed off that then, you know, younger juniors can feed off other players from Northern England or wherever could come in and access it. I hope that there can be some kind of support for a really structured program and that it will be in a better place post National Academy, and then it was pre National Academy. But yeah, maybe just not the right time. Maybe not quite the right facility. Personally, I think that the philosophy of the program could have been different, but it was a good experience. It was a real eye opener for me to be involved. And I'm sure we could talk about it all day to be honest,

Daniel Kiernan  59:49

Absolutely no, we could and the word that comes back to me I like to talk I'm obviously out of the British system. I have been for 14 years, but I'm still very passionate about it. You know? I'm a, I'm British and British tennis is in my heart. And I've got a lot of friends and a lot of great people that are working within British tennis, I always go back to a conversation if anyone ever gets the chance, and I'm sure you do to speak to Dan Evans on tennis, it's like a whirlwind. You know, Evo comes in and gives a little whirlwind and look, and even if Evo's listening to this, I don't mind because there's always some nice bonds in it, that you can pick out. And I had a big conversation with him at US Open, and it really stuck with me, actually, because he talks a lot about incentive, you know, he's a competitor. But ultimately, we're in a very competitive environment, you know, we're going against people that are competing for their lives, you know, this is the sport, that's what the sport is about. And he was saying, and he's talking more at the very top level within that system, but I think this can filter down as he says, pretty simplistic on his opinions that just No, just you have three coaches, in the men's department, three coaches in the women's department. And if they produce a top 100, player, their salary goes from 60 grand to 100 grand. And if then another, another player makes it in the top 100, then it goes from 100 to 130. And it's up to those three coaches and their fitness team, whatever it is, to just get it done. Get it done. And obviously getting it done will require performance analytics, it will require Sports Science departments, it will require if if needed, you know, and, and I think if there is a little bit more of that, which is kind of, I've been based in Spain 14 years, that's kind of what's in place, it's kind of incentive based in Spain, because it's all private academies. You know, if you don't do a good job, you don't have any players. So you'd better do you better do a bloody good job.

Colin Fleming  1:01:47

I think just just while you're talking, I think that like, the LT is obviously a very well funded, governing body. And I think the the unfortunate thing about that, and the way that is currently run is that entrepreneurship is stifled. Yes, you know, in all different ways. So be that be that I think coaches be that tournament organizers be you know, whatever it might be, I would love to see as a scenario where I talk about six to eight programs. I don't think they have to be run by the LTA. I think right now because all tournaments and all performance training programs are run through the LTA, it stifles entrepreneurship and people with the real passion that want to go and do something, it's then like, from a coach's point of view, like players will then move to the LTA program, and they're sort of like, get the wind taken out their sails a bit. Italy is an unbelievable model, isn't it, you go to an Italian challenger, and it's a business. It's a club that's passionate about it. And they're attracting local sponsors that are putting the whole thing on all our tournaments to sort of run by the LTA. So I think that's exactly what you're describing a bonus system that incentivizes entrepreneurs, if you want to call them that, passionate people to run a tournament to run a program to run a squad. I think I think that would be that would be such a healthy environment.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:09

I couldn't do what I've done the last 14 years in Spain and and created the opportunities for myself but also players and coaches around around me in the UK. And that's that's that's real

Colin Fleming  1:03:22

That's a, that's a real shame. I think you know, you that's a loss to British tennis, I know you still do a lot for British tennis, Dan, because you have a lot of British players that come and you, you've done coach education, you've done it. So it's great, but it's a shame that your program isn't in Great Britain and you aren't able to sort of be incentivised, part funded, part supported. If you can do this, we'll give you a little bit towards it. You could have tournaments going on, you could have you know, you're you're a perfect example that entrepreneurship that you've not been able to do it in Britain.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:53

Yeah, so Flembo I want to quick fire. And if you've listened to the pod, you'll know we have quick fire I'm not going to make it quite as easy for you as that I've got two sections of the Quick Fire and The first section is called the future. I'm gonna say something after the future and you're gonna give me a quick fire answer on that. So we've got the picture for British tennis.

Colin Fleming  1:04:22

Bright, I think I think the highest level I think bright Emma really promising what I've seen here and Jack Draper I think they have the ability to be the leading lights and hopefully there'll be some some players coming along with them.

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:37

Scottish tennis

Colin Fleming  1:04:39

I think bright as well. You know, I mentioned earlier the core of players both on men's and women's really excited to see how they do over the next few years. And again, I think there's a lot of work good work going on now at the the very younger ages. So I think we're starting to trend in the right direction.

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:58

And Charlie Robertson winning his first It's round here in Melbourne yesterday is a nice one. For Andy Murray.

Colin Fleming  1:05:07

Uncertain, I think. And I sit here as a, as a friend now just hope that from now until whenever he, he decides that enough is enough that he can find the level he wants to be playing and the enjoyment off the back of that. But at the moment, it seems a little uncertain.

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:26

For Colin Fleming

Colin Fleming  1:05:27

The future is spending a lot of time with my kids. Hopefully, that's the number one goal for me. But the future is bright, you know, hopefully, on the broadcast side, things started to change. And in the in the UK, obviously Sky coming back on board. I've got to work hard to try and get involved with with that, and continue to love what I'm doing covering the sport. So the future is good. And the future hopefully involves that as much time as possible with my family.

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:55

And for tennis, because we're hearing strong stories of a new tour being brought together, you know, that's starting to kind of leak out here in Australia. So what does the future look like for tennis as an industry?

Colin Fleming  1:06:12

The future at the professional level? I think the future looks really, really good. I have to say, I think on men's and women's side, I think there's so many exciting stars come through, there's always going to be discussions about the structure of our sport. I think that's the Invoke sort of thing, isn't it with everything that's happening in golf and you know, everyone wants to seem to want to follow the formula one model of getting people together and whatever it is, you've got to have the raw materials and I think tennis has got it. I think the future is very, very bright and it's very exciting.

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:43

And for something that's close to my heart and and your heart, the future for doubles.

Colin Fleming  1:06:50

Wo uncertain as well, I think uncertain. at the professional level, again, I'm referring to buy that doubles is always going to be healthy at a club level recreational level, isn't it? People love it. It's so social. I think at the professional level. I would like to see it promoted more I'd like to see it cover more, but I'd like to see more top players playing. But until those kinds of things happen. I'm a little unsure about how it continues to go from from strength to strength.

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:20

And moving into our traditional quick fire round your favorite Grand Slam.

Colin Fleming  1:07:28

I'm sitting here employed by Tennis Australia for two weeks. I feel I feel a little bit awkward answering that question. I'm going to remove myself from that. My personal favorite Grand Slam is the US Open

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:47

Your favorite doubles partner. Get off that fence.

Colin Fleming  1:07:55

You want me to pick one?

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:57

I want you off the fence. Man. I want you off. This is you know, I don't want any fence stuff. I don't want any diplomatic political stuff. I want your favorite doubles partner. Whoever doesn't get picked can deal with it thicken their skin.

Colin Fleming  1:08:09

My favorite favorite doubles partner was Ross Hutchins loved playing with all the guys Dan but Ross for sure.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:16

The winner of the Australian Open Men's and women's singles this year your pick where we're going into week two? Who's coming out of it.

Colin Fleming  1:08:25

I'm gonna go for Coco Gauff. Yep, I like that call. And I'm gonna go for I think it's Jannik Sinner's time.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:34

Jannik Sinner's only chance Flembo is by wearing on court glasses when he plays against Novak Djokovic, I saw a story today, Novak Djokovic has not lost in 10 years in Australia, apart from to two players who both were wearing on court glasses in Chung and Istomin these. So Jannik Sinner needs to get used to wearing on court glasses, if he's gonna get past Novak Djokovic about.

Colin Fleming  1:08:35

Yeah, I think the level he played Dan at the end of last year was just incredible. It was it was indoors. So that's what I'm interested to see. Can he produce that same level in the latter stages here outdoors? But I think he's good

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:18

A little quiz question. How many of your former partners have been on Control the Controllables and who are they? You might be surprised that this this answer.

Colin Fleming  1:09:32

Ross has been on? Has Ken been on?

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:43

Yeah.

Colin Fleming  1:09:44

Former LSU Tiger you must have had him on.

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:46

He was my roommate, He was my roommate for a year or two.

Colin Fleming  1:09:49

Johnny Maz must have been on

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:52

First ever episode you've got him and Freddy Nielsen.

Colin Fleming  1:09:55

Yeah very nice. struggle to remember who else I played doubles with. Not like play doubles with cheese. I don't know. I'm, I'm gonna go for bass and I've got three. I'm gonna add a couple of say five.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:08

It's eight.

Colin Fleming  1:10:10

What? How many people did I play with

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:14

Andy Murray Jamie Murray. Johnny Marray Ross Hutchins, Ken skupski, Dom Inglot, Rohan Bopanna and Eric Butorac.

Colin Fleming  1:10:25

Very nice. Just to go back to what we said at the start, you really are running out of people.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:30

So there we go. But you did you did preempt that a few minutes ago and you said you're not very good at remembering matches. So I'll let you off that forehand or backhand.

Colin Fleming  1:10:45

Backhand,

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:46

Roger or Rafa

Colin Fleming  1:10:48

Rafa.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:50

Andy or Jamie

Colin Fleming  1:10:56

Well Jamie likes to play golf with me. So I'm gonna go Jamie

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:59

One rule change you would have in tennis,

Colin Fleming  1:11:05

Get rid of the shot clock,

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:07

Singles or doubles?

Colin Fleming  1:11:10

Good question. Right now, as I sit here, I would rather play singles. While but I love that. It's

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:17

A big call. It's a big court

Colin Fleming  1:11:17

I love it. I love the game I love.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:23

I love the game on half a court. I think nowadays, Australian Open 2024 has 17 men, and nine women in the singles draw who were US college players, and they have 44 men and 16 women in the doubles. It's becoming a legit pathway into tennis. There's now the NIL, where players can get paid to play. Is this now the true established pathway into the sport outside of the generational talents.

Colin Fleming  1:12:00

I thought you were going to ask me to name them all for a second. I was panicking.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:05

I gave up on that a few minutes ago.

Colin Fleming  1:12:07

Yeah, it's a legitimate pathway. Of course it is. And I think just to go back to what we're seeing my own journey, Stirling University entrepreneurship programs in the UK, Why could it not be a legitimate pathway, they're still to have full time players that are able to continue a bit of education and grow the whole health of the sport. But of course, yeah, absolutely legitimate pathway.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:33

What does control the controllables mean to you?

Colin Fleming  1:12:38

Well, it means you know, it does what it says on the tin in many ways. It means controlling the things that you are able to control and influence and not worrying about external factors. You know what people think of you how people perceive you. It's making sure that you are true to yourself and prioritize and do the best you can in the things that matter to you and the things that are important to you and not worrying about external factors.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:05

And who should our next guest be on control the controllables you are responsible for bringing them on before you fire out some

Colin Fleming  1:13:15

You've got to give me gotta give me a framework here. Yes, so I've got to get them on? Depends when you're releasing it. Why don't you try and get Andre sir, get a Tennis Australia perspective. I can have a chat with Andre

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:28

Yeah, well he My first question is Do you remember playing me in 2004 Barcelona Challenger in doubles? Because I managed to get a win over him. So I like this one. I like this one. Brilliant. Flembo You've been a star man. I loved it and like genuinely could chat for hours with you. And well done on on all you're doing. You're doing a great job. And let's Yeah, hopefully this Melbourne dream continues for us. And if it does, let's try and grab some dinner over the next few days as well. Cheers mate

Colin Fleming  1:14:02

pleasure down and listen all the best here in Melbourne. Hope the girls do amazing. Go all the way and keep up all your great work with the podcast and your coaching and the Academy. Everything you're doing is superb. So thank you

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:13

And Colin is here with me in Melbourne. We didn't do it face to face. Maybe it's a technology thing that I need to sort out to do that but I find it a little easier that we do these talks on videos Video Chat until I get the relevant technology but we could have talked for hours and a proper tennis man is someone who shares my passion for the sport and he really does do a great job. You know if you you might have seen him on court interviewing players during the Australian Open. He's got that Scottish voice. Fantastic voice that comes through and his intelligence of the game also comes through as his warmth for people does as well. So loved, loved having him on. And I just want to before I I head off it's, it's late here in Melbourne. And I just want to, I guess, share a little bit with you because that tomorrow is a big day for myself and the players that I am here working with Gabriela Dabrowski. And Erin Routliffe, as they have continued their great vein of form into 2024, they've moved into the quarterfinals here in Australia, then also Gaby alongside her partner, Nate Lammens, have moved into the quarterfinals of the mixed doubles, and they, they play both of those matches tomorrow. Now, it's often not talked about doubles. And this is certainly not a complaint, it's just the reality of the sport that we quite often don't see. It's, it's long hours, you know, we were there for 12, 13, 14 hours every day. And that's just for a one match. You know, by the time you get there, you're you're going to maybe Scout potential opponents in the next round, you're making sure that the warm up is done correctly, you're making sure everything is in place, the plan is in place. And then the match finishes. And that's happened this evening, actually, the match finished, that mixed doubles match finished at 8:30pm. And we only left the tennis about an hour ago, you know, because you come off the court, the girls and boys will have their press that they have to do, obviously you're then eating your food and then you start to scout and get real detailed plan for the next day as in our case, it's a next day match. You're making sure that you're fully fueled, having your massages, ice baths taking care of your body if there's any extra treatment that needs to be done the rackets are in to get restrung for the next day and I love it. It's there's a real buzz to it. But sometimes I think we forget how much actually goes in with these top professional players to make sure that they are in peak performance. And yeah, I It's I'll be up probably an extra couple of hours now to make sure that the game plan is watertight, we feel really clear. And then a few hours later the alarm will go to get on site and as a coach. I like to get on site early as well. I like to do a little workout in the morning. You know, make sure any nervous energy is out. Starting to feel clear minded, making sure that all tickets are taken care of for the players make sure their rackets are picked up and ready and stencilled re gripped and ready to go. And then bringing little notes together for them as they go onto the practice court to warm up and obviously keeping that nice relaxed feel before the final preparations are done. And they step out onto the biggest stage you know, which here at the Australian Open there. They'll play on Margaret Court Arena tomorrow. And it is one of the biggest stages you can play in the sport. And it's it's exciting, but I'm sure it's also nerve wracking for these players as well. You know that there's big stakes at hand. And our job as coaches is to make sure that there's no stone unturned that they've got the absolute preparation on point. They know what they're doing. It's about them then going and committing, performing and trying to embrace whatever challenge comes their way. Which there's no doubt there will be some challenges for all players that are out there. And I feel very privileged to be a part of it. And I just thought I'd maybe share that as I'm living that moment right now. with you guys. And wherever you are in the world. Wherever you're watching. Enjoy the remainder of the Australian Open. Please don't forget, check the link in the show notes if you feel we deserve your vote, the Best Racquet Sports Podcast of the year and we will be coming to you in the coming days with more amazing episodes from Control the Controllables but until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables