Episode 110: Tom Gullikson - Captain Gully

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to control the controllables I'm Dan Kiernan from SotoTennis Academy in Spain, and we teamed up with Max Tennis Academy in Ireland. We brought this podcast together to entertain, educate, and energize the tennis community through the different lenses of the sport that we love. From Grand Slam champions to those at grassroots level, from sports journalists to backroom staff. Our aim is truly to get under the bonnet of the tennis world at all levels. So sit back and enjoy the show. Welcome to Episode 110 of Control the Controllables if you are a fan of 70s 80s 90s or noughties, tennis then this is an episode for you.

Tom Gullikson  01:01

He serves like hard slider down the tee and he hit it right on the line sparks did fly. You see me stretching you know for a forehand return and just missing the ball. I had the short shorts and the big hair and the whole thing at all rockin pretty good there. And then you see McEnroe going off at this English, old English umpire. You cannot be serious it's like flew up. He was changing sides and then yeah, the whole thing you know,

Daniel Kiernan  01:33

And that was of course Tom Gullickson Tom Gullickson, the captain of the Davis Cup 1995 USA winning team. We had Andre Agassi and his team Pete Sampras, Jim Courier and Michael Chang. How did he manage all of those characters. He was a Wimbledon finalist with his twin brother Tim. He was a mixed doubles winner of the US Open as high as number four in the world in doubles, 34 in the world in singles. He is one of the best storytellers that I've ever had the pleasure to speak to. And when he's telling story after story about beyond Borg and Jim Courier and Jimmy Connors and Pete Sampras and his late brother, Tim Gullickson, who he was so kind to share so much emotion and so many great stories about, I just sat back and listened, and just was so highly entertained throughout this podcast. And I know you guys will be as well. So I, I would fully recommend, whatever you're doing, sit down, get the tissues by the side up by the side, because you're going to have a few tears in this one. And also get ready to laugh a lot. Okay, so enjoy. Tom Gullickson. So, Tom Gullickson a big welcome to Control the Controllables how're you doing?

Tom Gullikson  03:03

I'm doing well, Daniel, thanks for having me.

Daniel Kiernan  03:05

It's great to have you on it. I almost feel a bit guilty that we're now jumping into the show because we've just had such a good chat there off air. I maybe should have pressed the record button a bit earlier.

Tom Gullikson  03:18

Well, you know, we we could have told some stories that probably the people shouldn't hear. Ya know, that was a good chat. A good warm up.

Daniel Kiernan  03:28

Absolutely. And, and like any of these podcasts that we've done, like I said, Tom, you're, you're well in the hundreds here now on the podcast. It's been it's been a brilliant experience. We'd like to start with where the whole tennis passion started. Back in the day, you know where your journey your tennis journey started?

Tom Gullikson  03:49

Well, that's that's a simple question, Daniel. When my twin identical twin brother Tim and I were five years old. And identical twins. We had it we were bringing a lot of energy to every day. My mother was pulling her hair out and she looked right across the street about 30 steps. Straight across the street. There was eight tennis courts and a practice wall at the University of Wisconsin lacrosse. So we were born and raised in lacrosse and on Alaska, Wisconsin, not exactly a tennis mecca of great you know, professional players. But so yeah, when my Timmy and I were five my mom took us across the street. They had a summer recreation program where the high school tennis coach Bill Baker would would teach lessons to the kids in the in the Recreation and Parks program. So we started chasing balls around for the kids and then Naturally grabbed a racket, and we started playing when we were five years old. So I hit my first tennis ball when I was five. And we totally fell in love with it. And I had my built in practice, partner with twin brother Tim. So I never had to go scrounging around for a hit. And by the time we were eight, we were very, very good. And, you know, people always say, well, when did you turn pro, and I have to say, I turned pro at the age of eight, because two doors down from us. There were seven college guys living in this like three storey house. And on Friday afternoons, they had a college PE tennis class, that would get over at three o'clock. And a lot of the kids that take the tennis class would stick around and practice and play. And my buddies, you know, we're looking to make their beer money for the weekend. So they call this TimTom because they couldn't tell us apart. They'd say, Hey, Tim, Tom, let's go over and find a couple of suckers over here. So they would take us across the street onto the tennis courts and walk up to the two biggest guys they could find. And they'd say, Hey, I bet my two little eight year old buddies, they'd beat you two guys in tennis, you know? And they just, they would look at us and they're like, four foot nothing. And they would say, Sure, let's, they would have their their wager. And literally, Tim and I always won, we always won. And they would pay off their bet. And they would, they would give us a quarter a piece. Our cut was 25 cents apiece, and we get on our bikes and go down to the ice cream shop at the you know, a couple blocks away and buy an ice cream cone. So I basically was taking money when I was eight years old. That's when I really officially turned pro.

Daniel Kiernan  07:06

Tom we're done this the best story out of all 110 podcasts. We don't need to go any further.

Tom Gullikson  07:13

Yeah, yeah, those were those were good memories. Those are really good memories.

Daniel Kiernan  07:18

That is amazing. And with Tim, one of the and I'd like to get into speaking about Tim and certainly into your older, older kind of tennis, tennis age groups after but how much of an advantage and you've already kind of touched on that, but to have a twin brother who, who had the passion for tennis that you have, how much of an advantage was it to have that like you said, live in sparring partner,

07:45

it was a massive advantage, Daniel. And, you know, I will say, you know, a lot of people would try to pit us against each other. And we were so close, you know, being identical twins that and we were very, very even growing up. But we would typically in the Wisconsin state tournaments, we would play in two age groups, like like the 12, and under and 14 and under. And I would win one and then he would win the next. And it was always worked out where we would split. And I think it was an unconscious thing where if I won the first one, I would feel kind of bad for him. So, you know, I wouldn't let him win. But I wasn't unhappy when he won, you know. And, you know, we we kind of pushed each other and we dreamed a little bit. And we knew there was something more in the world rather than just being in La Crosse, Wisconsin, which is a beautiful town. But we knew hopefully there was something bigger and better for us. And my my father was a barber and my mother was a homemaker. And she kind of worked in a grocery store a little bit. So we we really grew up with like no money. So never played in the National Junior tournament. Never took a private tennis lesson. And Tim got up to 15 in the world. And I got up to 23 I think and we did pretty well in doubles. So yeah, we never ever played a National Junior tournament. And we only got one college scholarship offer from Northern Illinois. We you know, growing up in Wisconsin, we of course, wanted to go to University of Wisconsin. And at the time, one of the only indoor college facilities in the country was the AC Nielsen indoor Center in Madison. So we used to play a lot of high school matches there. And unfortunately, it didn't offer us a scholarship. So we couldn't go to U DUB. So we ended up going to Northern Illinois and DeKalb which was Division One.

Daniel Kiernan  09:52

Was it looking almost like a different way and I know you've gone on and you've you've worked for the USTA You've been involved at the very highest level of the sport, was it in some ways on reflection an advantage that you didn't have the help that you didn't understand what was out there and you just had to work, I guess for everything almost in quite an authentic way. Rather than maybe the kids that are picked up by Federation's from an early age, have a heap of pressure put on them, and they have all of these things I get. How do you how do you reflect on that now?

Tom Gullikson  10:30

Yeah, well, when you know, I think when Tim and I were playing on the tour, we basically played he played one year longer than me. He, he was teaching in Dayton, Ohio, right after college. We graduated in 73. And he went to Dayton, Ohio took a job at a club there as a as a head Pro. And he met a guy by the name of Hank Jungl who was actually from New Orleans. He played number one at Tulane. And he was a lieutenant colonel in the Air Force, and he was winning all the kind of prize money tournaments around Dayton and Cincinnati, until this young guy from from Northern Illinois from Wisconsin, Tim Gullickson, showed up and he started winning everything. And he, Tim was a really good athlete. And, you know, because we didn't have the funds just to play tennis full time. We were all state basketball players. We played one year at Northern Illinois, we played on the freshman team. We played baseball, we played all the sports growing up. And looking at it now I'm 69 years old, I've never had a surgery. I've got all my own body parts. You know, I was at the US Open three years ago, and I'm walking in to the, to the building their Players Lounge and I hear the Hey, Gully, what's going on? It's Jimmy Connors. And Tim and I were good buddies. And I played him a lot. And we practice with Jimmy and have a few beers with him and go golfing with him and stuff. And we're like talking and reminiscing. And he goes, Yeah, I'm on my third hip. He said, I got two hips in me and I got one hanging up in the garage. I said, How you doing? And I said, Well, you know, I've got all my original body parts. And I've never even had a surgery which for a pro tennis player. It's pretty amazing.

Daniel Kiernan  12:21

And you and you would put that down to the playing the other sports as well.

Tom Gullikson  12:24

I think so. Yeah. You know, when when you play other sports, your your kind of body kind of evens out and you learn like in basketball, we played a lot of basketball, which is a lot of stopping and starting and dynamic, you know, explosive movement and dynamic jumping. And you need obviously in tennis, you know, one of the core principles of being a good tennis player is is loading and using the ground virtually every shot. So, you know, you know, playing basketball was a great kind of training ground for tennis in terms of the cross training, if you will.

Daniel Kiernan  13:01

Absolutely. And I have to just pull you back there a little bit. You mentioned that Tim after college was a teaching pro and is so so was it not a case of you went to college, played college and then now we're going on the pro tour. It sounds like it was actually went in golf got jobs and then fell into being professional tennis players. How did that work out?

Tom Gullikson  13:24

Yeah, well, you know, because we didn't play the National Junior you know, guys, kind of Rh American guys were like, you know, Connors. Eddie dibs Harold Solomon, Roscoe Tanner, Sandy Mara, dig Stockton, Brian Godfried. In the year, Timmy. Timmy finished 1979, 18 in the world. And he was 11 in the US.

Daniel Kiernan  13:51

Oh, wow.

Tom Gullikson  13:52

When I was interviewing for the head job at the USDA said to Gordon Smith, who was the executive director, I said, Gordon, Tim and I played in the golden era of men's professional tennis. In 79, Tim Gullickson, was ranked 18th in the world. And he was 11. In the US, he wasn't even in the top 10. And now our number one player in the US has ranked 25 or something in the world. You know, is there anything?

Daniel Kiernan  14:20

Why? Why though? That's a That's a? I can't I can't let you go on that because that's a that's a massive topic. That is you know, if we talking about the dominance that it was then compared to for the size of the USA, the relative success that it does or doesn't have now,

Tom Gullikson  14:38

in my mind, every every kind of country, it has its own brand. You know, us isn't going to be Spain and Spain is not going to be the US and England's not going to be France you know, and the lot of the Federation's have tried that they've hired people from other countries to try to inject kind of their kind of culture and brand, if you will.

Daniel Kiernan  15:03

I was gonna say I thought England was Belgium for a while.

Tom Gullikson  15:07

Exactly. And it doesn't work. And I told this to the USTA so listen. You know, we were playing and we had all these great American players to battle with, you know, all those guys I mentioned, you know, Connors, you know, McEnroe dibbs, Solomon, Godfrey, tenor, you know, you name it, Stockton. And, you know, we had a brand new American tennis, what did it mean, to play an American American guys were really good athletes. They were great competitors. They were tough. They had really good kind of aggressive games, you know, even within whatever style they play, they were playing to win. They were not playing, not to lose. And so that was the brand. And I think a lot of places, they don't have a brand, you know, and Americans by nature are kind of aggressive, they're hard working, they go for it, they dream big. They, that should be kind of the baseline of how you want to structure a program for American players.

Daniel Kiernan  16:20

And I feel that actually, I mean, obviously we spoke off air. I went to LSU. And before I went to LSU, I was probably ranked 50 or 60. In the World Juniors don't singles and top 10 in the world doubles. I thought I was rubbish. In I was in an environment where we had Martin Lee who was World Junior number one we had, you know, we had we had good good players who I was training with. And I think probably the UK there's, we downplay things, we're a bit dour on certain things. And I went to America and everyone was like, so upbeat. And so like, and I remember after that, then it worked worked for me after like three weeks. I was like, Oh, my God, I'm I'm good. I'm really, you know, I felt it. And that brand that you're talking about? It was very clear to me that was also what a college player did. You served big you came forward? You know, you look to hit big forehands. You look to finish it, the net, you were aggressive the way you played doubles. And that was what back in '98. And again, that massively suited me. Do you feel that that's not there anymore?

Tom Gullikson  17:32

Well, I think people have kind of lost their way a little bit. It was interesting. I love listening to Federer and Nadal, I love listening to all these kind of interviews. And you know, I love getting the players thinking it's one thing to watch them play, and they're all amazing players. But I love the process. They go through the thought process and how great their minds are, Federer said something really interesting. And he's 100%. Right? I think the question was, why aren't these guys beating you now? I mean, you and Nadal, you know, you're 38 or 39, and Nadal's 34, 35 and Djokovic is in his early 30s. These Young Guns should be beating you guys. You know, just like you started beating him, the older players when you were coming up. And he said, you know, most of those guys hit the ball great, but they have no clue how to transition or finish at the net. You know, they have a very kind of one dimensional game. And, you know, one of my own personal coaching philosophies. And when I was director of coaching for the USTA when I worked with the pros. My goal is to help create players who are aggressive, all court players, and I call it the three C's. I want you to be competent, confident, and comfortable in all three parts of the court. The back court, the mid court, which is a big mystery to a lot of players, and also the front court, which is normally where they go to shake hands and pick up the big cardboard check at the end of the tournament. They have no clue what the front court is about. They have a little bit of mystery about the mid court only hitting winners from the mid court maybe they can step off and whack a big forehand or something. But, you know, most of our junior players now you know 95% of their tennis experience is just at the baseline whacking balls as hard as they can with a set of blocks along and you know, strung kind of loose and swinging hard and ripping big topspin balls and maybe flattening out a higher one. But you know there's I don't think coaches and academies and Federation's spend enough time in skill development. When you look at Federer or, you know, he goes to a court if you compare him to a bow hunter, okay. He goes out bow hunting, and he's got 20 arrows in his quiver. And if one arrow he misses with one, he grabs another arrow and shoots another arrow. So when he walks on a tennis court, he's got 20. So this is something I learned from my late brother Tim, he was big on this quiver thing. He goes, You know, I want you to have a lot of arrows I want you to have more arrows and the guy that you're playing against and you know, Timmy coached Sampras for five years, and got him winning Wimbledon every year. Pete's record before he started working with Tim was two first round losses and one second round loss. He had no clue how to play on grass, before he met Tim Gullickson. And, you know, Tim played me every day of his life. So nobody was better at returning a lefty serve. Because I had a good lefty serve. To him. He played me every day. He had a great backhand return. He had the block, he had the nice chip, and he drove the ball but he'd stay on the plane of the ball. He wouldn't come up on it too much and Sampras, he would try to turn against the lefty serve and his swing plane on his backhand return was almost straight up and the ball's coming 130 on a on a on a horizontal plane and your racket is strings are going vertically up. The chances of those two meeting are not very good. So you know, Timmy taught him how to return serve against a lefty and he won Wimbledon seven out of the next eight years. So not not not a bad not a bad result there for young Pete Sampras and Timmy passed away 44 In May of 96. And Pete actually put his

Daniel Kiernan  22:03

Take your time.

22:07

Yeah, Pete put his first Wimbledon trophy in the casket. And he said Tim not only taught me how to be a Wimbledon champion, he taught me how to be a winner in life in Wimbledon was so touched by that. And obviously, they took the trophy out and gave it to the family and Rosemary and the kids. Eric and Megan Wimbledon, who's not in the habit of making it making Wimbledon trophy replicas, they made Pete a replica of that trophy, because they were so touched by that.

Daniel Kiernan  22:45

One amazing, thank you for sharing that story. And in terms of in terms of Tim, and what I think some sometimes in life, we we don't realize what we have until we lose it. And and, you know, we're talking now 25 years, you know, and how much of an impact is Tim been for you over the last 25 years? Through not being here and the lessons that he taught you and your relationship that you obviously have had? It's also been so special?

23:22

Yeah, well, I still miss him every day. Think about him a lot. And you know, there were kind of over 900 people at his funeral. So he obviously was, you know, there's some people you meet that are real impact players. And you know, Timmy Timmy had a real positive impact. You know, he was he was a hell of a player. He was a great competitor. And he didn't have that many arrows in his quiver. But you know, he would win his matches, eight six in the 5th he Beat Ramirez won one year on court two Wimbledon, eight, six in the fifth. He took out Johnny Mac, in 79 4, 2 and 4. And I had lost the Johnny Mac in the third round that year. And so Timmy is playing Johnny Mac in the round of 16 on court two, he's up he's playing great. He always played great against lefties, you know, he's up 6-4, 6-2, 5-1 just toying with him. I 5-2, 5-3, 5-4 serving for the match at five for 1540 he serves a second serve, and he stays back and he was a serve and volleyer of the highest order. Stage back Mac hits that little bump back in return that he used to hit that block kind of bunts Timmy takes a short Ball rips the approach comes in knocked off the volley when site six four in the in the in the third set and people go nuts obviously McEnroe was a second seed I think that your court two of course was called the graveyard court because he didn't like playing there and Timmy goes in the pressroom after the match and he goes, nobody beats the Gully brothers back to back. Brilliant stuff.

Daniel Kiernan  25:33

Absolutely amazing and, and how special was 1983, the year that you guys made a Wimbledon final together.

25:43

That was fun because we had gotten divorced the year before we took a year off. And at two, we had gotten a little stale and my singles dropped a bit. And I think he felt a little extra pressure to do really well in doubles, because I wasn't doing so well in singles at the time. And he was playing much better singles than me. So we kind of took a year off and he kind of played with Johan Creek for a year. And you know,  I played with Mike Cahill quite a bit who was good player from Wisconsin as well played number one at Alabama when he went to college, but in that year was kind of fun playing with different players because obviously, as you know, being a good doubles player, you pick up bits and pieces from everyone you play doubles with, you know, and if you can find one little nugget from everybody you play with you. It just adds to your overall ability as a doubles player. And then we got back together in 83 had a great year. You know, we won the two warm up tournaments, we won Queens and we won Bristol. And then then, you know, we ended up losing Johnny and and Peter Fleming, you know in the final but it was pretty special. You know, we're here we are two boys from La Crosse Wisconsin who never had a private lesson and never played a National Junior tournament, getting our runner up medals from from the Duke and Duchess of Kent, you know, and Timmy looks over at me with this great smile that he had. And he goes, not bad for a couple of small town boys from Alaska, Wisconsin. We we enjoyed that. Yeah, that was great.

Daniel Kiernan  27:33

Nobody can ever take those memories away from your tongue, you know, and it's as an unknown it is an emotive topic. And I think you know, it's so lovely hearing the stories on Tim, you know, and I think everyone in the tennis world followed, followed obviously the story with Pete Sampras so closely and if we, you know, we go back to 1995 You know, the Australian Open, you know, when, you know, Pete was Pete was in tears on the court and right, how, how was that moment? I guess it at the time, did you know how early was at the time what was?

Tom Gullikson  28:11

Well, he you know, unfortunately, and we had, you know, had real fears in 94. I mean, it happened to him twice in 94. He, he he had an incident in a in the hotel room in Stockholm, where he was ordering a transport car and you know, the house phone in his hotel room. They got the grand they were staying was on a like a plate glass table any any kind of had a seizure, and he fell against the plate glass table and cut up his face and, and he somehow, you know, must have passed out but he crawled out to the hallway and Bob Brett who unfortunately passed away recently he was a great guy and a great coach. Bob Brett was like going to his room and he saw him and they got him to the hospital right away. And unfortunately, they never checked his brain. They checked his heart. And like a lot of pro athletes. He had a little bit of an enlarged heart. They thought it was some kind of a heart issue, but they never really did a brain scan. And then fast forward six weeks Timmy's with Pete over in Germany. At the ATP finals. You know, Tim's lovely wife, Rosemary was an intensive care nurse before she became a lawyer. And he was speaking to her on the on the phone from the hotel and he started garbling his words so he she immediately knew he was having a seizure. So she hung up and called the hotel and sure enough, they went up to the room and he was having another seizure. So they got him to the hospital there. So he'd already had two incidents. And then I was actually with him. Because, you know, I was with Tim. And I think Pete was playing his second round match at the Australian and we were in the locker room and he didn't really look good. And right before Pete went out to play a second round, you know, Tim had a seizure, kind of like a, like an epileptic, fit almost, or in the locker room. And fortunately, the hospital is only five minutes from Melbourne Park. So we got him to the hospital right away. And they did take a brain scan. And unfortunately, the doctor gave me the terrible news that he kind of thought it was brain cancer. And those four spots look like four tumors, you know, but couldn't confirm that until you take a biopsy, of course, and take a little piece of it out. And they certainly weren't going to do that there. So I actually stayed in the hospital with him for like, three or four nights. And the last night we were there. You know, Pete was obviously really upset and everybody was upset. Tim, Tim was a pretty popular guy. And we were getting a lot of visitors. And the night before I flew back to Chicago. The doctor said, Well, why don't you? Tim's pretty heavily medicated. He's not really in danger of having another seizure. So why don't you get him out of the hotel, go to dinner. So I got a group of very special close friends like Ian Hamilton, who was a Nike guy who was great friends of Tim and I. And Todd Martin, was close friend of mine and Tim's and coach Todd for a while through the USTA and Jim Courier, who was very close to me and Tim, and Pete and we all went out to dinner. And just to show our support for Tim, you know, and Pete and Jim were playing against each other the next day. Clearly, they were real rivals for Grand Slam titles. So, you know, they were friends, and they really respected each other on and off the court. But they weren't exactly hanging out, they all had their own little teams, you know, that they spent time with and I'll never forget, we went out to the really nice restaurant for dinner, and just Timmy was there. And just, you know, everybody was just there to support him, you know. And the next day, I put him back to Chicago, and then he had to, he had a biopsy to to see what was in there. And sure enough, it was brain cancer, you know. And then that day, that was the day that I think Pete and Jim played in the quarterfinal

Daniel Kiernan  33:08

And such such a tragic tragic story, Tom and I think what a lovely memory that you're able to have to be able to have have that time with with those players. And, and, and one thing that was was that really sprung to mind when I was looking into into your career a little bit more before before this talk was that you then went on to win the Davis Cup with USA in 1995. You then went on to be Team USA Captain when Andre won won the gold medal in 1996. You know how I guess, how were you able to cope at that time with that going on? And then how special were those victories? Almost that I'm sure at the time were very much dedicated to Tim as well.

34:00

No doubt and I leaned on Tim a lot for advice, especially with Pete. Because I mean, Tim and Pete had a really special bond. And only you know the Tim really teach Pete a lot about tennis. He taught him a lot about how to compete. He put the compete in Pete Yeah, the part, you know, and he told Pete one time he goes, You know what the E because Pete was Pete was, you know, he was an artist. He wasn't like a more mechanical player like Lendl or Courier who were out doing drills, you know, six hours a day and, you know, he was an artist, he had to like feel the ball. And he told Timmy, you know, who got up to 15 in the world, being an amazing competitor. You know, he told him when they first started, he goes, you know, you know some days I just don't feel the ball. Oh, you know, I don't feel the ball and other days where I'm not striking the ball. I'm not saying that I accept losing, but I almost kind of feel like I'm gonna lose. Okay, I'm just kind of looked at him and he goes, You have every shot in the book. You're an unbelievable athlete. You're one of the top three or four athletes on the tour in terms of movement and jumping and, and just dynamic, you know, balance and, and you got incredible hands, you can do anything with the ball. He goes on the day, he kind of grabbed he had like a white t shirt on right? And so he kind of grabbed Pete by the collar. He goes. Pete That's not acceptable. As long as I'm coaching you. That's 100% not acceptable. On the days where you're not feeling it where you're not Mr. Artists like striking the ball really clean. He said take this little white house birdies collar off and put your blue collar on and beat the guy being an athlete and a competitor. You're not always going to have your A tennis game. So on the days, you know, there's there's the three pieces right there. There's there's a tennis player, as an athlete, as a competitor. And, you know, you got the actual tennis game. Yeah, but beat him as a competitor beat him with your physicality, be it better athlete than this guy. And Pete really learned how to compete you know, that was one of the great gifts that that Tim added to Sampras' his game other than the technical skills of like how to return surf and how to play against lefties. I mean, Pete couldn't beat a lefty. I mean, in the 91 I think Davis Cup final we lost a France and he lost a lecan and four J both in straight sets, you know, because he couldn't return a lefty serve. Right. And then after Timmy started coaching Pete and teaching him how to hit a backhand return and teaching him how to play against lefties in terms of positioning and the patterns and everything that you totally have to switch against the lefty Pete's record with against lefties after that was like 45 and 0 or something. So he was like, never lost to lefty. So. So Pete, you know, Timmy taught Pete a lot of lessons, you know, just tennis lessons, and then off court stuff as well. Tim, treated everyone the same. He would teach treat Lille, the locker room guy at Wimbledon, the same as Phil Knight, the CEO of Nike. Yeah. He had heard it in a nice word for everyone.

Daniel Kiernan  37:46

Lovely, for other for everyone else to hear those stories, Tom and I know that they haven't been easy stories to tell. But you know, I think I think for for people to be able to hear those stories and the impact that Tim has had on had on so many, you know, is just incredible. And I just if you don't mind, just one more thing to delve in on that. What you said, in terms of teaching a backhand return. A backhand return is a backhand return. I guess it's a skill that I'm not saying it's easy, but the ability to teach someone to be able to compete. It's it's almost like the, the holy grail of being a coach, you know, so. So how do you how do you or how did Tim teach the ability to compete?

Tom Gullikson  38:39

I think, I think when Timmy was working with Pete, you know, Pete, you know, Pete was such a talented player, he he had different gears and I would say all great players have gears. Like I say, if I'm an average player, or you're an average player,

Daniel Kiernan  38:57

Very average,

Tom Gullikson  38:59

You know, we we try to play as well as we can for as long as we can. But you know, like Agassi really described perfectly one time. He told me we were at Davis Cup or something. And he goes, you know, playing Sampras, he said, he said I could be winning my serve at love or 15 every time and then all of a sudden, at five six in the first set I'm serving to get into a tie break. You know, I miss my first serve and he chipped charges and knocked off a volley. And then he hits a running forehand, you know screamer, you know, down the line for a winner and all of a sudden he's very interested in my service game all of a sudden, and he ends up playing a great game and breaking me and he holds easy to first game and then he breaks me again. In 10 minutes. I go from five all you know, kind of right in it to. I'm down seven, five two love, you know, and that was Pete. I mean, Pete. He was it was like a lightning strike, you know, like a cobra. I mean when he sensed that he could really get into you. I mean, he had that that terrific gear and probably the best thing. The best story I could tell about that with Pete was Davis Cup. When I was captain, I had the privilege of being the captain for six years and obviously, I had Sampras, Courier Chang Todd Martin, Agassi, I had three number one and number two and number four. But as I told the guys after we won, at the end of the day, it all came down to coaching. You know, they had no talent. But But But Pete was playing. We're in the semis of the Davis Cup. It was right after one of the US Opens. Patrick Rafter had won because he won back to back US Opens. And Pete and rafter always had a little personal thing against each other. I don't know. I always had a little edge to their relationship. And Pete kind of considered the US Open his tournament because he did win it like five times I think. So Rafter just won the open. We're in Washington DC, playing Davis Cup for the first time ever in our nation's capital. And he's playing Rafter and we're up two one in the match because he had beaten Philippoussis the first day and we were up 2-0 and singles and then we lost to the woods and doubles. So he's playing Rafter and we're up 2-1. And you know rafters playing amazing. Talk about an athlete serving and volleying on 107 kick serve, diving volleys, backhand overheads, stretch flick. Topspin volley. That was though Yeah, I mean, you know, it was ridiculous. Those two years he won the Open has was an athlete coming in on everything and virtually every point and was ending in a winner. Pete had multiple breakpoints. He was up a mini break in the tiebreaker. And he ends up losing the tiebreaker like nine seven or something. And Pete You know, you know everybody's different in Davis Cups. Some guys like to talk some guys don't you know, that Pete kind of sits down. And I said to him, I said Pistol, I said, You know what? Rafter sitting over there right now, realizing he's incredibly lucky to have won that said, I mean, he had all the chances you had all the breakpoints. He made. He made some amazing shots. You played well, on a lot of the breakpoints. You're up the breaker, he kind of hits a net cord passing shot. You know what I said, you're this close to blowing this guy out. So I said if you could just raise your level, raise your intensity level. At the beginning of the second set. You could blow this guy out. And he just said okay 6-1 6-2 6-4 And, you know, shakes hands, Newcombe, who was very gracious. We are talking, you know, he just congratulated me but we were talking over a beer at Wimbledon a couple of years later. And he said Gully, what are you saying to Sampras on that changeover? You know, and I said, Well, I was saying you know, that Rafter probably felt he was really lucky. And if it took to win that said, and you're playing great tennis, if you can just up your level and your intensity level a little bit, you could blow this guy out. And I said, What were you telling Rafter? At that same moment, he laughed, and he goes, I was telling Rafter I said listen, you know you got kind of lucky to win that set. So you know he's going to be coming at you pretty hard because he had all the chances so you better up your level because you know he's going to become an action man, Sure enough Pete did and and Newcombe did say to me out right after the match. He goes Gully, I had no idea how intense Sampras was. Right. Okay, everybody thought he was just real Shy kind of guy. You don't win 14 Grand Slams without intensity. And he goes, You know, I'm typically watching Sanford's play from a broadcast booth, because he did a lot of TV for Australian TV. He said I'm up above the center court wherever, you know, watching and you don't see the little things. You know, like, for example, like when he's serving and volleying. He would hit a big serve and come in and hit the Return. He'd let it go and Pete would just kind of go he'd like blow it out. Little stuff like that. That's kind of fun. And yeah, you know, Timmy really added that element. I think Pete really kind of embraced that he was just athlete and he could out compete somebody that I don't think it ever occurred to him because he was, he was kind of in that Purist kind of ball striking school. Yeah. And he really brought that out in him and kind of gave him a different way to win. When, you know, like Tiger Woods would say in golf, you know, I went with my C game and piss everybody off, right? Pete can win when he wasn't playing his best. And that's a real art. And that's a real skill.

Daniel Kiernan  45:42

He was just incredible at finding a first serve as well, wasn't he? And that, that, does that come from his confidence? Does that come from his inner belief? Does that come from maybe taking a little bit off? Does that come from years of practice? Where did that skill come?

Tom Gullikson  46:02

He's got great technique. Yeah. They said, competence comes first. You just you can try certain things. And you have to have a huge dose of self belief, like you said, but you also have to have a lot of courage or a lot of balls, if you will. How many times did we see him when he won the open the last time? Down break point, you know, on the outside, throw a kick cos over his head and hit a 120 down the tee second, sir. Yeah, that takes a lot of courage. And a lot of belief, you know, most a lot of guys might dry that shot, but most guys would hit an 80 mile an hour kick to the back end and hope for the best. Right?

Daniel Kiernan  46:49

Yeah. It's actually joke. It's quite interesting, because I think Djokovic is trying to add that to his game right now. Yeah, that big second serve down down the tee, you know, yes. These the best of these best players, they're always adding these other and they've always got the courage to be able to put it out there and go back to a comment you made at the start, which actually, we have SotoTennis bracelets that have this very saying on which is play to win. You know that, you know, once you get into the business end of these big, big tournaments, you're better be playing to win and not playing not to lose at that point.

Tom Gullikson  47:27

There's no question. Tim and I were on a practice court with Pete one year at Wimbledon. And we were talking about this very subject that you just mentioned. And, you know, he said to Tim, and I said, You know what? I hate to lose, but I'm not afraid to lose. Yes, in the translation is he always played to win. And lesser players who have a little fear or a little courage, they don't play with the freedom and the absolute conviction of I'm going to play my game. And I'm going to execute at crunch time. You know, a lot of people can execute when it's one all in the first set. But when it's five on the tiebreaker, and you have that exact same shot that you that one on the first set, and you hit that shot at that time. Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  48:17

yeah. I have to ask you as well, you when you're talking about Davis Cup, three, world number one's world number two. And then, as you've also said, you don't get to that ranking with having without having a pretty strong character personality. How, how did you manage all of those personalities and characters at the same time?

Tom Gullikson  48:39

Well, you know, everybody's different. You know, it's really, for me as a coach, what a great living laboratory to be the Davis Cup captain for six years, and have all these great players. And I learned a lot from every player. And they all practice different. They all had different thinking. They all had different things they like to do. And I would always kind of cookie cut each practice and each preparation week. For that specific player. I didn't try to mold them in the way I like to practice if I was out practicing, like, for example for myself. And one day we were in. In Holland we were playing Rotterdam on a pier in Rotterdam and I had Courier and Sampras playing singles, and Richie Brandenburg and Jared Palmer, who are excellent doubles team. And Holland had Richard Krajicek and Jaco Elting and you know other guy who was pretty good. He had the sweet one handed backhand, tall guy who was ranked 20 something 20 in the world or something, but he couldn't hit a second serve thankfully, but remember, oh Shang Shulkin? That's right, a good player. But anyway, great tie, and Courier. You know, was a real workaholic. Unbelievable. I mean, he loves doing two on ones here. His preparation for Davis Cup was he liked to get up early. He was an early riser. And he would take the early court time. And we would do two on ones for two hours. And, you know, I didn't have to say anything, the practice partners because he would bark at them if they were missing too much. So they weren't very focused. So I was like, great gym playing. And he's coaching too. So I don't have to say anything. They were all afraid of Courier. They missed the ball. Sorry, coach. And yeah, so one day where they're on the center court, they're on the pier and in Sampras is going to play at 11 He's going to practice and he would typically only practice for like an hour, you know, so he's watching courier, he comes up about 10 minutes. So 11, and Jim is just grinding the two on ones and, you know, Pete's just looking at him and go, You know what he said, I have so much respect for Jim. He said, There is no way I could put in half the work he puts in the stay at the top of the game. You know, so Jim's practice, he do two hours a two on one and morning and the afternoon, he liked to play like three sets. And then he would go to the gym after that, and just tear up a treadmill and lift weights and everything. And then on Wednesday about lunchtime. You know, I'd be walking past Jim and I would say Hey, Jim, yeah, have you ever heard of the concept of tapering? And he would just laugh, you know, tapering coach. Yeah, I got it Cap, you know, he called me Cap, I got it Cap, that's where you kind of wind down a little bit. So you actually have something in the tank for your first match on Friday. And, you know, Sampra would, you know, he'd practice for an hour in the morning and, and he hit down the middle of kind of feeling a ball, and you have to hit it within two steps of him otherwise he wouldn't run after it, you know. So I had the practice partners, they said two steps on either side, he's a two stepper and the warm up, play down the middle. it to him, he gets a nice rhythm going. They'll take a few volleys and play a few games. And that's pretty much it. I'm good. I got a feel and then Agassi would Agassi like to talk and you'd like to bring energy, you know, he brought a lot of energy to the practice court. He get a good warm out and Gilbert would be there sometimes, you know, talking all the time and and Agassi liked to play like three baseline games to 11. And he looked at the practice partner, you know, some guy ranked 200 in the world or something and he'd go play up play for 100 bucks a game. And the guy would look at me and I got Don't worry, I got you covered. USAA gave me a little slush fund for the for the for the funny money, you know, in fact, it was funny they used to give, they used to give us, you know, some cash they used to give me and the four players and the two practice partners an envelope with some nice cash in there. And before the guys would say, hey, Gully, how you doing? They go where's my funny money? These are all multimillionaires, you know you're worried about your cash. And, and the guys would Agassi, you want to play three games up to up to 11 for 100 a game as a practice partner would like, didn't really want to play. I said, Don't worry, I got you covered.

Daniel Kiernan  53:57

But just as you token that it's like, you could have been describing Rafael Nadal when you were describing Jim Courier. You could have been describing Roger Federer when you were describing Pete, you know, and that's not something I'd be very I've been fortunate to experience firsthand just with players I've coached who practiced with Nadal and practiced with Federer. I can't talk about McEnroe Borg, but it feels as if maybe Borg was a bit more of the ilk of Nadal and Courier. I don't know about Johnny Mac, I guess you've as a player, then as a coach, you've seen so many eras now. Right? What what are the similarities between the eras? And what and what are the big changes?

Tom Gullikson  54:49

Yeah, I think I think the first thing I want to say is that I think champions in any era would be champions today. Yeah. You know, I hate to you know, Who's to say that? Federer is better than Rod Laver, you know, Rod ever played with the wood racquet didn't have the same kind of training and all the information that these guys have today. He didn't have sports psychologist and a trained under Harry Hartman and they did the Jim Courier approach, you know, two on ones for two or three hours in the morning, they'd play five sets in the afternoon, and then they do calisthenics and sprints, and then they go drink, you know, 10, 15 beers at night, you know, that was the Aussie way of training. Like McEnroe didn't really like the practice. He was an artist. But that's why he played doubles. I mean, doubles was his practice. You know, when he would go to a tournament, he would always play singles and doubles. And when Fleming wasn't there, he would bring one play with one of his Stanford buddies like Peter Reynard, or, or Bill Mays, or somebody and he liked playing doubles. And he actually would have a bit of a, he was more relaxed than doubles for sure than he was in singles. Yeah, he could find some things that maybe smile about in a doubles court, you'd never see him smile on the singles court. You know, every era, hopefully, we'll learn from the eras before. And I think that's one of the things that, frankly, bothers me a little bit. You know, I heard Saphan, one time saying something like, Who's this Rod Laver guy? And come on, you know, other than the fact that an arena is named after him? How about? Yeah, how about kind of respecting the history of the sport? I think that's one thing golf does really well, you know, the, you know, when Byron Nelson was the host of the, the Byron Nelson classic in Dallas, he would, you know, as he got older, he'd be sitting by the 18th green, and all the players would shake his hand, say, thank you. And we should do that in tennis to to the Lavers and Rosewalls, and Stan Smith and guys who were really, you know, they're kind of pathfinding for the players today.

Daniel Kiernan  57:01

I feel like it happens with labor more than any of them. But it almost, I often think when I'm watching, where's everybody else, you know, labor seems to appear, obviously, at Australian Open, I think they seem to do a good job. And they've got an arena named after him. Because now the Laver cup, that there's there seems to be quite a bit around Laver, but exactly that I think it's really important that I've got an academy. And we are, so what we do is we put our players into different teams. And we will use greats of the game as the team names. And it's, and it's amazing how many of them are like, Who's that. So for them, the first, the first thing they have to do is they have to research right player, and they have to present on their player. Because we have to respect the sport, if we don't respect the sport, what have we got?

Tom Gullikson  57:59

Yeah, and yeah, each generation should be better than the generation before. Because you can build on what they did. And then with the advances in technology and training methods and everything, I mean, you know, theoretically, every sport should advance. I mean, you look at the, the, you know, the record Olympic records in swimming, you know, I mean, they they're swimming, you know, faster and faster than they've ever done and, and tennis should keep improving as well, you know, really should.

Daniel Kiernan  58:34

Absolutely and to move you into the Federation. And I know you've worked at the USTA spent a lot of time at the USTA. One thing I'm really curious on and we've talked quite a bit on this today is around the individuality of of the sport, you know, like you're talking about the difference in training the difference in communication styles. So then when it comes to a federation, how does a federation get it right? Because I guess I'm a believer that systems as such don't work because it's too generic. So first and foremost, what do you believe a federation like a USTA, what do you believe that their fundamental role is within player development?

Tom Gullikson  59:21

I would say that their first role should be to have a robust tournament structure all the way from the juniors to the pro circuits event. One of the things I think the USTA does quite well and I know Dan, you know, because you played and coached on the USTA you know, satellite and challenger circuits, and you know, to provide competitive opportunities at home. So you don't have to travel to four corners of the world to get the coveted ATP or WTA points. So I think that's obligation number one, I think the USTA has done a pretty good job on that overall. Number two, I think when you have a program programs always have limits. But within a program you should have individuality like you said tennis you should not try to create a bunch of robots who all play the same way. I mean, Borg could have never been McEnroe and McEnroe would have shot himself if he had to be Borg playing from the back of the court and you know, just getting balls back and hitting one more I know they asked Borg one time you know, he was a man a few words. How do you win 11 grand slams in a short period of time and you won like six French Opens and you won five Wimbledon, how did you win all those grand slams? And he thought about it for a second. He goes, Well, you know, most of the time, when the ball would come, I would hit it cross court. And every once a while I'd hit one down the line. Like okay, you won 11 Grand Slams hitting a cross court most of the time and every once in a while, hit one down the line. Yeah. And like I actually got a set from Borg at the French Open in 79 second round, I won my first round match at the French and like most Yanks, I wasn't all that good on red clay. I never hit a ball on red clay till I was 24 years old. So so it's not like I had a lot of experience playing on clay that I just played my serve and volley game and played really super aggressive and so Borg in the first round that your beat my buddy, Terry Moore, who was a pretty good American player, beat him 0, 0 and 1 and he threw him the courtesy game at five oh, in the third set. So I'm like watching this match and going he's very not bad on on clay. Borg just had to give him a game. And I said, I'm playing second round, which is Kids Day, which is Wednesday, and they have all the kids there at the French. And okay, what do I'm gonna do it, consult my best coach, which was Tim Gullikson. And he goes, Well, I can't stay back with the guy and you know, come in second every time. So okay, serve and volley. Every time he misses. The first serve, allow you to hit a forehand or knife a backhand and get in and make him pass me right away. Now, don't get me any rhythm. The only time we're going to have a rally is when he hits a first serve. And, you know, I lost the first set. Like seven, five, I won the second set, like six, four, I think. And then I lost the third set. And, you know, after the third set at that time, if one of the two players wanted a 10 minute break, he could take it. And I had already changed, you know, shirts, like five times and in Borg's not even sweating, you know, I mean, his resting heart rate was 38. Right? Yeah, I mean, the guy was so fit and he was incredibly fast. He was like, 10.0 100 meter guy, you know? So I immediately said, Yeah, I need the break. So I run into the locker room there and shower up and he's literally sitting on the bench with Berglund. They're not saying a word. They're sitting there and they swear the guy hadn't even broken his sweat yet. And he ended up beating me like six, four in the fourth but I got a set from red clay. That was my career highlight on the clay.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:40

Did you beat him once?

Tom Gullikson  1:03:42

I beat him once indoors in Miami. Indoor tournament. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:47

That's a nice story to have as well.

Tom Gullikson  1:03:50

That was a nice win. Yeah. beat Borg. I beat Edberg twice. I beat Nastasi a few times. Yeah. Be Connors twice. Those were good wins because Connors didn't give away anything. Yeah, sure. At any tournament. Yeah, you don't win 109 tournaments. By not being an amazing competitor, talk about a competitor, I think Connors has to go down as one of the greatest competitors who's ever played the sport male or female.

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:19

Incredible. And how good was Borg? Because he stopped at 26 didn't he.

Tom Gullikson  1:04:26

Borg moved unbelievably well. He had a very heavy forehand. his forehand was very good. He kind of drove it. He had some topspin on it but he could he could drive it. His backhand he shanked a lot but it always went in backhand was a little flippy. But he and he could slice it a very good first serve. Second serve was pretty hittable and when you would come in on him he had every passing shot. He had crosscourt. He had down the line and he had topspin lobs off both sides so you know when you come in against him You better come in on a good shot otherwise yeah that's why the matches with he and McEnroe were great because McEnroe was an amazing attacker, and Borg great passing shots and that but the nice thing about playing Borg is he lets you play stood pretty far back in the court. You have to McEnroe and Connors you know they were both up on the baseline McEnroe coming in is whenever he could and Connors playing very aggressive baseline tennis from right on the baseline in Borg stood further back to return so the nice thing about playing Borg was he gave you time to play you never felt rushed. When I was playing kind of McEnroe and Connors, I always felt rushed. They were always like stealing your time whether they were like McEnroe was always coming in at you. So he's, he's confronting you and trying to invade your space, you know. And Connors was playing really aggressive taking the ball early on both sides, forehand and backhand. So yeah, it was a really tough dynamic playing all three of those great champions.

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:15

And what's the truth in that you were the first player that McEnroe said You cannot be serious?

Tom Gullikson  1:06:23

Yeah, yeah. If our listeners want to get a good laugh. After the podcast, go on YouTube. Type in John McEnroe, you can not be serious. And that's me on the other side of this 25/30 second clip. We played on the old court one at Wimbledon, first round, first round Wimbledon 81. And that was a summer of the baseball strike in the US. So there was no American baseball that summer. So obviously Wimbledon always got great coverage, but the whole focus of the US press was on Wimbledon. And we had a tight match the first two sets I lost like 7-6 7-5 and I had five set points in the first two sets. So I could have been up two sets to love. And it was like two all on the third. And the clip is I think he's serving on the on the Deuce court. He served like hard slider down the tee and he hit it right on the line chalk did fly off. You see me stretching, you know for a forehand return and just missing the ball. I had the short shorts and the big hair and the whole thing at all rockin pretty good there. And then then you see McEnroe going off at this English, old English empire. You cannot be serious. Chalk flew up. He was changing sides and then you know the whole thing you know. And so then Fred Hoiles, the umpire, the tournament referee comes out and he has some very choice words for Fred Hoiles. You know, I couldn't repeat on this podcast and you know, that was a year I think. Yeah, yeah, we Timmy and I were divorced that year we weren't playing doubles. So Dennis Ralston had asked me to play doubles with him and my my wife at the time, Julie was going to have our second child you know, any day any day now and I kind of stupidly told Dennis Yeah, I'll play doubles with you and Dennis Ralston was there kind of mainly coaching he was like coaching like Stan Smith and Godfried stalked and yeah like three guys he was coaching and so you know, I lose the third set six three and lose the match and you know, then I said What am I you know, I gotta get home be with my wife and she has our second child so I find Dennis Ralston I said hey Dennis, you know really sorry I need to pull out of the doubles I need to go home and be with Julie you know she's going to have our second baby any day and I don't want to miss it. So he goes that's fine you know I'm doing all these this coaching. That's good good luck with Julie and the baby gave her my best you know this so at that time, you had to go to the referees office to officially pull out the tournament you know. And all Fred oils which is on court one yesterday when emmalin so I go in to pull out of the doubles and walk in and cheese Fred sitting behind his desk there and I said, Hey, Fred, you know, pulling out of the doubles. I've already talked to my partner Dennis Ralston, he's fine with it. And my wife Julie is going to have a have a baby any day now. They don't want to miss it. Oh, Freddie looks up at me. And he goes well, Tom, you know I couldn't find you for because you're not sick or you're not injured. it and I kind of absorbed that for a second. I said well Fred, you could fine me you know for going home to be with my wife who's having a baby I said but I could also tell the press what McEnroe called you on Court Number One yesterday also. Fred looked up at me and he goes, have a nice flight home give my best regards to Julie and good luck with the baby. You're gonna find me pulling out to go home and be with my wife who's having our second baby turned out to be a beautiful girl. Christy, and you should have defaulted McEnroe for what he said to you on court one that day. I called Freddie's bluff

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:49

I hope you get commission from McEnroe because if you'd if you put your hands up and said look it was on the line it was on the line we would have never got the You cannot be serious which her must have made McEnroe a lot of money over the years that that comment Hey,

Tom Gullikson  1:11:05

Danny, there's no doubt I mean, I mean, they got this National Car Rental commercial over here in the states where McEnroe's walking down with a car and as an agent you know, we're walking out in the parking lot outside and McEnroe looks up and you cannot be serious so you can choose any car in the aisle you know? I'm like I should be getting 10% seriously and Nike makes a t shirt You cannot be serious and Rose me I should be getting 10% royalties on all this

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:38

Well let's let's get back payment let's get let's get a campaign going, reparations. I could talk to you honestly all day

Tom Gullikson  1:11:47

you're gonna run actually I gotta go make somebody better

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:50

And that's and that's my thing, but I do have to do my our quick fire round Davis Cup or ATP cup.

Tom Gullikson  1:11:58

Davis Cup.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:00

Should it be best of three sets of best of five at slams for men. 

Tom Gullikson  1:12:05

Best of five

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:06

Forehand or backhand.

Tom Gullikson  1:12:08

Forehand

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:09

Serve or return

Tom Gullikson  1:12:11

Serve.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:11

Singles or doubles,

Tom Gullikson  1:12:14

Singles,

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:15

Borg or McEnroe?

Tom Gullikson  1:12:20

McEnroe

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:21

Roger or Rafa.

Tom Gullikson  1:12:24

Roger,

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:25

Should there be an injury timeout or not?

Tom Gullikson  1:12:30

Yes.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:32

What's one rule change you would have in tennis?

Tom Gullikson  1:12:35

No lets, no lets and no leaving the court after the set.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:44

What, you used to you used to have a shower?

Tom Gullikson  1:12:47

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's out there for five sets.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:53

And who should our next guest be on control the controllables?

Tom Gullikson  1:12:58

That's a good question, Dan. I'll tell you it's pretty interesting as Andy Brandy he's got a lot of stories. Yeah. Coach of your Tigers and he's great. He went

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:11

You have to get him and you mentioned Jim layer at the start of the start off. Is there is there any chance we can get him on?

Tom Gullikson  1:13:18

Legend, Tell him you're in the fog club. The fog Club is a friend of going.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:24

I'm gonna I'm gonna reach out to you to get that connection. And that's how

Tom Gullikson  1:13:28

Got it. I'll send it to you.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:31

It has been brilliant, brilliant talking Tom. Thank you so much for your time. Everyone is gonna love that. That's a one for the ages for everyone to listen back story after story. Thanks so much for giving your time.

Tom Gullikson  1:13:42

Thanks, Dan. Great, great talking to you and good luck with with everything with your academy.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:47

If you ever over this way, there's always a place I'd love to get on strike a few on the red clay courts with you.

Tom Gullikson  1:13:53

Love it. Let's go. Let's do it. My backhands a little suspect. I'm ready to attack it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:01

There's more than my backhand that's suspect.

Tom Gullikson  1:14:03

As long as there was a break afterward, we're good

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:06

Absolutely It's a date, take care. Thanks. All right. See you. But wow, a big, big thank you to Tom for for coming on the show. That that truly was an incredible conversation to be a part of. And as always, I've got Vicki next to me to to unpack this one. And I would imagine that wasn't an easy one to edit.

Victoria Kiernan  1:14:29

No. It was it was incredibly easy and incredibly difficult. At the same time. I don't even know where to start with that. Really. I cried. I laughed. What an amazing storyteller he was.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:41

Yeah, and that would be I guess my number one takeaway actually what an incredible man he was. And, you know, for him to come on the show. It really was an honor for him to share such heartfelt stories about somebody who obviously has never left his side in his brother Tim, and for him to open up like that for him to, to bring story after story not only about Tim, but about himself and about his tennis world was was a real treat. And yeah, and I guess it goes back to that thing again, it's it first and foremost be a good person, you know, he's had he's had massive success as a tennis player, but also as a tennis coach. And as we saw, you know, managing your Sampras, your Agassi, your Chang, you know, your couriers, you know, these difficult characters who are number one in the world. But he's able to do that, because he's just a good decent human being. So not a real a real pleasure to have that conversation.

Victoria Kiernan  1:15:40

I found myself yesterday telling so many stories that he talks about to my friends. And then he said this. And then he was the guy that McEnroe played when he said, You cannot be serious. He's just been involved in so many amazing moments in US tennis history, really,

Daniel Kiernan  1:15:56

He has and I actually sent him a voice note. And we've had a couple of messages since the since the episode. And I thanked him because when I've found when I've been retelling the stories, it's almost as if he's passed on the emotion to me of the stories. And I think that is the sign of a good storyteller. You know, I was with him everywhere. And when I then went to tell those stories as well, you know, I found myself welling up as if I'd been in his position, you know, and really, really powerful the way that he did it. And also very powerful, the way that him and his brother came from pretty much nothing. And I love that story about how they won the money, you know, with the local, the local university boys, and and managed to make it to the top of the world without any coaching, you know, incredible.

Victoria Kiernan  1:16:47

Surely that couldn't happen in this day and age, no individual tennis lessons and reaching the heights that they did.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:53

I think it's it's, it's a, it's a big challenge, I definitely think things have become a lot more professional, the game's advanced in lots of ways. But I think it does bring home to me, getting that balance, you know, and having that balance of valuing every time you go on to the court, and valuing every ball that you do hit and I think we do live in such a structured society now that it's almost like I'm just playing tennis again, you know, and almost going through the motions, because that's just what that's what I do on a Tuesday night. Whereas I would imagine those boys growing up, they were finding ways to get onto the court. And every time they did get onto the court, then it was it was special, and that ability to then put that energy into every single ball that they hit. And, you know, maybe there is some lessons to learn, but no, in answer to your question. I don't think it happens without any coaching, or without any structure. However, maybe we do all need to try and find a bit of a balance on that.

Victoria Kiernan  1:17:56

But the fact that there was two of them, I mean, that must have been such a big advantage. They've got a constant competitor all the time they're trying to beat.

Daniel Kiernan  1:18:03

Yeah, well, you would know that. I mean, you played tennis with your sister. Did was that. Was that a help or a hindrance?

Victoria Kiernan  1:18:09

Well, I was the oldest one. So it was probably I was probably the target for my sister. But she's Yeah, she's the only person that I've ever played against and knowingly cheated. I changed the score. She won the first set six, four. And she went to walk to the net, and I went no juice, knowing that we'd have to go back to school that we agree on. Yeah, that was shocking by me. I didn't admit it many years later, but she

Daniel Kiernan  1:18:33

is that. Is that an exclusive?

Victoria Kiernan  1:18:37

One? I'm certainly not condoning it. It was terrible by me, and I apologize again, to my sister Louise for taking that moment away from you. You won that set fair and square. She didn't win another one now. It's definitely an edge. I think sibling rivalry is a benefit always. I think. But um, yeah, she pushed me. I did not want to give her anything. So I'm sure I pushed her to get better. And she pushed me to kind of keep ahead.

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:03

Yeah. And then, like me for them to go on and make a Wimbledon final and, you know, to have everything that they have. And, and then obviously, you go back to 1995. And it's very, very clear to me that Tom has had Tim next to him for the last 25, 26 years. He's still there with him every single day. It's obviously it was a tragic loss at the time, but they certainly have an incredible special bond.

Victoria Kiernan  1:19:30

Yeah, you could certainly feel the love and respect and admiration he had for his brother Tim. He told some lovely stories about him, didn't he? I was actually trying to explain the other day about that moment when Sampras was crying on the court in the quarterfinals of the Australian Open against Jim Courier. I love that story that Tom said about that they were out together the night before for dinner, before they played the match to show their support to Tim I'm sure many of you will remember that moment when Sampras was crying on court and how the I mean, he wasn't just crying was he was sobbing and the commentators at the time didn't know why. I remember so vividly watching some press. At the back of the court serving I'm sure he still knocked down some aces. And also at the change of ends sitting in his seat just sobbing. And I don't know if you remember, but Courier actually checked to see if it was the right and offered to come back the next day to finish the match. Sampras obviously declined and came back from two sets to love down to beat Courier in five. That was everywhere at the time. And it was lovely to hear kind of the background to that story.

Daniel Kiernan  1:20:46

No, it was and to move into my last thing. I've had a few people reach out to me about the David Mullins podcast, and I know, I had quite an emotive rant. You know, I'd like to think that it was a little bit better than a rant. But maybe it was a rant around tournament structure in Ireland, and I had a plea to, to the clubs in Ireland. And I've had people ask me what what my opinion is on that, you know, and actually, as it happens, Tom Gullikson, who's worked for the USTA also mentioned that we've had Nick Wheel from the LTA. We've had Dave SAML, who talked about that, you know, we've had many guests that have brought that up. And I guess my, my thoughts are being crystallized more and more as I do these podcasts, and my learning is been just incredible, I feel very fortunate to have it, and just to be able to put into my philosophies, and then understand really clearly what I think and I guess where my thoughts would be on tournament structure, it's the starting point of our sport, you know, and I think, when we talk about, if I want to go and play golf, I want to go and play the game of golf, you know, from there, if I'm not playing well enough, I'm losing my money to my mates, then I might go and get some coaching to try and make improvements. But the starting point will always be the game. And, and I think if you are a nation that has the ability to provide a tournament structure and competition structure, all the way from very young all the way through to the professional game, then I think that has to be the starting point of any program that is put in place, you know, that is, it goes almost without saying, for me now, having listened to all of these people, coaching is not the sport, tennis is the sport, let's get our kids playing. Let's give opportunities for adults to play, let's give opportunities for professionals to play. And then from there, the whole ecosystem within your national country that you're from, will start to grow because people will fall in love with the sport, we'll have more and more people playing more and more coaching jobs, more and more jobs in tennis shops and equipment and physios and you know, there's so many other roles that come from it. And and I guess that's would be where my my passionate thoughts do lie on the tournament structures. And it's not just specific for Ireland that certainly in any nation, that it would be so anybody that was curious on my thoughts on that. I hope that helps.

Victoria Kiernan  1:23:26

And we've got an exciting week this week for the podcasters we've got not only a new Instagram page, but also a shiny new website as well.

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:34

And yeah, I mean, it's it's fantastic. And the guys that have brought the Instagram page together and the and the website together, I have to say a big shout out to yourself Vicki and also to Faye from SotoTennis Academy who has done a great job. And you can you can find us as of now, you know on CTC dot podcast is where our Instagram page would be. And our website is www dot control the controllables.co.uk. And yeah, it's exciting, you know, this podcast continues to grow, the interest continues to grow. And I think there's going to be some great things that we're going to be able to come through on the website and the Instagram page. So please do reach out. You'll be able to get a hold of us very easily on that. We'll also be having a new email address which will let you know about in the next podcast. But until the next time. I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables