#168: Ross Hutchins - Inside the ATP

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 168 of Control the Controllables. And wow, what a Wimbledon Championships we are having. As I speak to you, we've just reached semi final stage of the women's event and the men's event. Today is women's semi finals there and Ons Jabeur, someone who I picked in the preview to watch, she's still my pick for the title is still a couple of girls that stand in her way. But it's going to be exciting all the way to the end. And then on the men's side. I mean, Could you Could you hand pick for more exciting players, we've got the British Cameron Norrie, to keep the fans excited. And again, Cameron Norrie was someone who, in the preview, we picked someone to watch someone who at 11, 12 in the world doesn't quite get the plaudits that he deserves. But can he get past Novak Djokovic tomorrow, and go on to be the first British player since Andy Murray to make it to the final of the singles. Cameron has been on the podcast a couple of times, but most recently, three or four weeks ago with his amazing coach Facu Lugones, that's another great episode for you guys not to miss. And then in the other half of the draw, Nick Kyrgios. Finally the man with the talent, the man that maybe steps too far at times, but his skill, his talent is undoubtable. And you could see it you could see it when he played Tsitsipas in the third round. He had the bit between his teeth. You know, he wants he sees he saw the drawer open in our plays an injured Rafael Nadal in the semi finals tomorrow. And I can see him getting past him and potentially having the final on Sunday against Novak Djokovic. So let's see how the next couple of days goes. And I have to give some shout outs as well to two of our guests Desirae Krawcjk and Neal Skupski. It was last August when they they promised to play with each other and defend their Wimbledon title. And they've moved into the final of the mixed doubles as well. I've been having a little bit of chat with them on WhatsApp. And I've said you guys have to promise to come on and speak to us again. And make that make that decision and that commitment to be playing together in 2023. And give us another Control the Controllables exclusive. And then in the men's doubles, Joe Salisbury and Rajeev Ram, two of our ex guests that have been on the show as well. They continue to go from strength to strength in another semi final at Wimbledon, and they have our backing to go and win the men's doubles title. My last little mention is Jack Draper. I know he lost second round to Alex De Minaur. But he showed us what an incredible plan that he's going to be carrying the British torch for the next few years. And again, I spoke to him only a couple of weeks ago. So you've got some amazing guests to flick back on to see if this is your first time on Control the Controllables welcome. If you are an old timer then welcome back and thank you for your support. There is 167 other episodes to listen to. So make your way through lots for you to listen to lots of amazing insights, funny stories, emotional stories, and so much more. But on to today's guest and on the theme of Wimbledon. This man comes from a Wimbledon family. He's lived in Wimbledon all his life. His dad was on the GB Davis Cup team, a big big part of the old England Club. And now he finds himself in a position for the last eight years where he is third in command at the ATP. Now this was a great conversation with Ross. Ross has had an incredible life including some big medical difficulties that he goes into the depth of throughout this story is in lots of different positions. He's been a good friend or is a good friend of Andy Murray and many players on the tour he was 28 in the world as a doubles player. He then after his medical difficulties moved into the position of tournament director at the Queens Club before moving to the ATP. Now we hear so much about the ATP. Good, bad, indifferent. You make your own mind up. Ross speaks to us here today. And he's a brilliant guest on Control the Controllables I'm going to pass you over to Ross Hutchins so Ross Hutchins, a big welcome to Control the Controllables. How are you doing?

Ross Hutchins  05:06

Very well, Dan, thanks for having me.

Daniel Kiernan  05:08

It's good to have you here. You've not been an easy man to nail down but I've finally finally got you. And and I want to jump into so many things, Ross. But as as with the way that this podcast has worked, there's so many amazing stories out there. And and yours is certainly a fantastic story for people to hear. It originated from tennis royalty in the UK, you know, and anyone that knows the Hutchins name will will know that. At what age did you realize that you were that you were part of a special tennis family?

Ross Hutchins  05:46

A good question to start. I have to think back now it's 37. Now, so probably when I was starting to play for the country at the age of 10 to 12, I started realizing that I have an opportunity to try and progress to some level in tennis in the upcoming years. In your I guess in your low teens. Knowing I was from a family that my father being Paul Hutchins and knowing at the time when you could start registering his connections in tennis and how he I guess, maneuvered his way around tennis being connected to the All England Club being connected to the LTA being former Davis Cup Captain national team manager, the people I was able to work with on court and spend time with off court, I was in a very fortunate position, and a very thankful position that able enabled me to, I guess, be educated well in the tennis environment to to deal with experiences quite well to be honest, and so that when I was privileged enough to play for my country, or get invited to national academies, or get or get involved in playing with better players, and probably I was at the time, it enabled me to progress, my tennis ability and also my understanding of the game faster than other people around me, which I was fortunate of. So I'm very thankful to, as you said, tennis royalty, my dad, and my and my brother and my sister who also played to be able to help me progress quickly. And I think I was able to deal with losses, probably better than some other people at my age, mainly because of my father. And also having an older brother, an older sister who you know, get on with my sister very well, I was able to learn off them and play with them and watch them and try and understand them. Which have probably matured me quite quickly at a young age to be able to deal with with the situation of trying to try to explore tennis really, I played a lot of other sports at a young age. My dad was very big on that I stayed in education also, I spent a lot of time at that school. But I assume that probably at 10 to 12 I realized that I was I was fortunate in a position to have the people around me that I did.

Daniel Kiernan  08:08

And that's the I guess that's the positive side of that, you know, of, of coming from that but is there is there another side of that that there's pressure that goes with it and there's there's more eyes are on you there's I laughed as the watching the Jubilee you know, Prince, Prince Louis, you know, as he's kind of like slapping his mom in the face and and doing what all little children are doing. There's such a there's such an eye on it. Is that something you felt as a young age? Or were you protected well from

Ross Hutchins  08:40

I wasn't really and I'm certainly kind of no comparisons of Prince Louis but again, the royalty connection is it's flattering. I I wasn't actually I never felt the pressure of expectation with regards to what potentially I could become based on the family I came from all the places that I was playing or the results that I was achieving. I wasn't you know, I was never as good as someone like an Andy Murray or even a Jamie who always playing one or two years above them. In the junior ranks. I was always a very strong national and international player in my age group. But there was always the international guys like the Rishard Gasquet's, Rafa Nadal's Gael Monfils', Tsonga's, Berdych's, these type of players were always playing one or two age groups above themselves. And so I was never put on a pedestal by whoever I was playing with the background. I had all the type of results I was getting. I was I was doing well in my age. So I never felt that there was a huge expectation or pressure on me to deliver because of because of the people around me. And I think there would have been more pressure on someone like Andy and Jamie because all the spotlight was on them. You know, I was one of many good players at that age, a David Brewer, a guy Thomas these type of players who were, who were good players around me and more. And the reality is, I soon learned that the transition rate from being a good Junior number one, two or three in the country, in your age group, to then making it whatever making a means in the pro circuit, it was actually very difficult, very, very difficult. And actually the transition is not something which is flattering for our sport is a very difficult one for for parents and people at that age to judge. Whereas maybe other sports, there is more of a transition rate to becoming a good Junior into becoming a good a good professional athlete. So I think I was quite realistic. And I never felt that type of pressure, that it had to be had to be something I was more just taking it month by month match by match practice by practice, and trying to enjoy it and and see how it went. And fortunately, it went well for for large parts of my life.

Daniel Kiernan  10:50

And in terms of you mentioned that your dad had you playing other sports, which, which I'm certainly a big believer of as well. At what age did you make the decision? Do you know what tennis tennis is the thing that I want to push the sport that I want to spend my my time in? Do you remember that happening at a young age? Do you remember the time was that difficult decision

Ross Hutchins  11:15

Would have been 14, I would say I would always play the crickets and the rugbys in the footballs. But I was I was quite well protected at school as well. Meaning that I could I could choose the type of sports that I wanted to be involved in knowing that I was quite a strong tennis player. And if I needed to, to play certain positions in rugby, where I would maybe be less injured, or if it meant that I could, I could pick and choose and choose swimming instead of athletics, for example, maybe a bad example. But if I wanted to choose something, I had that ability to do so. So I stayed in touch with a lot of sports. But at 14, I would have really focused on saying, I know the next few years are pretty important years for my life, the 15 or 16, I think arguably some of the most important years of a tennis professional if you do want to continue on. And then from 16 to 19, I found those years go so fast. And I found that looking back you are you're always looking at where your goals might be. And there is quite a lot of attention on the higher ranked players internationally at that time. And you'd have a lot of scouts on you have the American colleges looking at you, you have the National Academies looking at you, you're always trying to think about playing junior under 18 versus trying to play on tour at pro at 1718. So I always find 14, 15, 16 where you can create some good fundamentals and you're learning about the process and you can actually grasp a lot of what's happening and the emotions are actually you're able to handle you're having to deal with those emotions. I think it's important that at that age you start really thinking about where's my future without getting too drawn up into into saying well I need to be good at tennis it's more about where the focus should be physically mentally and technically as a as an athlete and whichever whichever field you want to move into.

Daniel Kiernan  13:06

Where were you during those years we would home where we training at Queens through your training at NTC. What was what was the setup for you at that point

Ross Hutchins  13:15

I would have been at at home I had some options to go to UK National Academies under the under the system of the LTA and actually large as my dad's guidance I chose not to other people did not say it was the right or wrong decision. It was right for me. I had a good setup in the UK in Wimbledon area. I had a basic at Sutton and I had a connection to Queen's and I had also had some some connection to Roger Taylor, who at that age was very influential in my technical career who between Roger my father, the LTA setup, and the existing academies which were in place, there was a good setup in my area. So I was pretty strong, strong willed that I didn't want to leave my environment and home environment and I felt it was the best setup for me. So I despite the guest that the offers to move to somewhere in the UK or internationally, I chose not to I probably could have experienced something internationally. I would have liked to my dad would actually encouraged me to and I chose not to at the time to go to Spain or to go to America and do training blocks. It wasn't really a thing back then it's more, it's more nowadays, I think it's more recommended. And a lot of players do it to try and expand parts of your game, which maybe aren't as strong at the time. And I think I could have it could have done me good to experience different types of players because I've been played with the same surface the same players with the same, same mentoring, the same coaching. But I think something like that might have expanded my game style a little bit and it allowed me to improve maybe where I struggled. But that was a choice that we made at the time but I was very pleased with the setup and you know National Academies can work for people but it also So it might not work for people. So and for me, I certainly think it was better for me to check the tape take the path I did take.

Daniel Kiernan  15:06

And in terms of now, you know what, you know, you know, you've been around the sport at all the levels around some of the world's best now working working for the ATP. On reflection, is there anything that you would have changed in your developmental years?

Ross Hutchins  15:28

You know, I often think that when people talk about their children who are 1213 1415, and I often relate to it by saying, Please don't focus on the results too much at that age, we're working on your game in a far bigger way. And I think the better players do that, and they get the balance between knowing the importance of being a good player to have the funding from whoever might be funding you to have the necessary results to playing enough competition, which I think it's very important to play competition and learn how to deal with wins and losses, and competing on different surfaces. But I also think that it's important to know based on your physique, based on your strengths based on your mentality, the type of areas which you're you're going to need to have when you're developing yourself at 16 to 19. So I needed to define my game style better, did I need to have a big weapon? Did I need to cover because I'm six foot three, and I didn't move as well? Did I need to have a weapon of a serve, which was unreturnable? Did I need to? Did I need to focus on my transition game from from ball three, and being able to move to the net? I think I was more of a rounded player without actually specifying where is my career going to go to? And what do I need to develop at that age, in order to maybe not focus so much of being number one or two in the country, maybe not focus on qualifying for a certain tournament, but actually develop my game more so that I knew that at the age of 17, to 20, that I wasn't going to be falling short, based on something I didn't do between 14 and 17. So that's probably the most most profound advice that I can give someone, because I think that, that everyone gets very worked up about how good someone is, at the time, when actually, it's more about doesn't matter whether you're one or three, internationally or nationally, at 14, it matters about how you're going to be performing at 19 to 22. Really, and making sure you're healthy and strong, and have a good mentality and a good base of which you know what your game style is, it's very important for someone to be able to know.

Daniel Kiernan  17:36

I like it Ross. And that would be my message as well. But I did, I did read something this morning, actually, that was found quite interesting. And it potentially challenged my views a little bit. Not changed my views, because I think still absolutely you can do both of these things. You can do the development, and you can have the results as well. But I saw a statistic that and I believe it was an ATP statistic that 50 of the current top 100 were inside the top 15 in the world, juniors. And then somebody else went on to there wasn't there was another statistic that was even more compelling than that, which I don't have off the top of my head. So I guess if that if that's taken at face value, you will get players, coaches and parents that will go Yeah, yeah, development. Yeah, yeah. Process process. Yeah, yeah. But you my kids got to get results. My kids got to be this because if they're not this, then they're not going to be that. So what would you say to those people?

Ross Hutchins  18:45

Well, I think you can achieve that at the age of 17, or 18. When your junior ranking comes into play, I think the key is at the age of 14 to 16, personally, that if you are of a certain quality, or you are trying to target that period of time, and let's say your target and your goal is top 50 juniors, okay, well, then that's the goal. And you know that it's 17 to 18, you've got to be top 50 juniors, to really try and have the ability or the likelihood to be able to transition well, then you're 14 to 16 needs to be able to position yourself well to be in that category by the age of 17 to 18. So I think that you've got to learn how to have your base level be good enough to then be able to have your ability to be able to have the results because a lot of people at a young age when they're not quite as good. At the younger age, they will talk too much about development. I don't need to play matches because I'm developing myself I don't need to compete because I'm developing myself and I lost that match because I'm developing myself. Not sure that's really accurate either. You've got to be able to have results. Play and not be afraid to play, lose some matches potentially by playing the right way and moving forward. But you still got to learn how to win and you still got to have that competitive fire in your belly to not want to lose was, and then you've got to be able to continue to transition yourself in these blocks. So that when you are a good junior, and you are playing the juniors, not everyone comes from there, but the majority do you're right, those stats are accurate, you are able to have the results and also the development in those younger years.

Daniel Kiernan  20:17

And you what was your highest Junior ranking ITF junior,

Ross Hutchins  20:21

I can't actually remember honestly, then it wasn't that high. I was injured with my hips for for a long time over that period of time. But I was never at the top of the game at the juniors, I, I would have struggled probably when I was 17, both injury wise and game wise to really keep up with the better players of the national-international range.

Daniel Kiernan  20:41

And so why was US college an option for you? And if so why didn't you go down that route?

Ross Hutchins  20:49

I would say it was I remember a conversation actually down in East when I was playing county week one year. And my dad actually came up to me and said, Look, I think we need to have a chat at 16 about what I'm going to do when I'm 18. And think about US college because there were some very appealing offers to try and develop my game to try and keep education and I strongly considered it but actually, at the time, I would have been still in the mindset that I was good enough to go far in the singles in the singles world. And also, I think I just won national doubles championships. I think we even played you that in maybe it was in the final in the semis. And that 16 I managed to win that. So I was always on a good path at 16. And then injury hits. And I would say a lot of players then passed me in those next couple of years. So I was not against it by any means it could have been a good system for me. But I think I was probably still believing at the time. I think probably rightly so at the time, that the right path for me was to keep going with education in the UK, which I did. I took my AS and A levels whilst still playing on professional tennis at 16, 17, 18. And I felt that again, probably similar to the decision when I was younger not to go to a UK Academy, I felt that the environment I had around myself here was was the best possibility for me to try and give my best self the best chance at 17, 18, 19, 20. And then I faced a lot of injuries, a lot of illness and my level of of actually having the firepower to be able to keep up with some of the better players. People like Andy and Jamie Baker and Alex Bogdanovich, these type of players that some of some of the listeners might might know, though they were they had a better game than me at the time in the singles court.

Daniel Kiernan  22:36

And so then as you you've made the decision to play, I want to get us up to 2012. But before 2012 When, obviously the news of your of your illness came crashing down, but before that, in that in that period, when when you were playing and doing okay, you know, a very, very good player, you know, absolutely do it okay started to do obviously much better on the doubles court, just just just for the listeners who, who think sometimes that playing on the tour and getting wildcards and playing in this event planning in that event, is all rainbows and, and cupcakes, you know, tell it tell us about that period, some of the and also some of the dark times, you know, I'm sure you've had lots of lots of great experiences, but start us off with, with some of the dark times that you go through as a as a tennis player.

Ross Hutchins  23:34

It's not an easy transition in our sport, something that actually in my current job, which maybe we'll talk about a little bit, we're working very hard on trying to improve the possibilities of players once they leave the junior circuits or once they are facing troubled times on tour at whatever level or or situation in their life they may be at. And it's something which certainly we haven't managed to crack fully yet at ATP. But it's something which we have a big goal to try and to focus on about what is the right number of players that should make a living? What is the transition from juniors to the world tennis tour on the ITF circuit to the ATP challenger tour and on to the main tour. And that circuit, it's not pretty on the ATP World tennis tour. It's, you know, the 600 tournaments around the world. At the ATP on the ITF World tennis tour. There's there's 170, 200 challenger tournaments and they're not luxurious. They're a platform to try and move up the rankings. And we do our best to try and deliver a good circuit to be able to have the opportunity to progress forwards. And it's an it's it's an ongoing challenge to make sure that expenses are remaining a low amount for players opportunities to earn points and money in the game is there to be able to play and also that those tournaments can survive sustainably to keep Running for players to be able to have the opportunity. But I remember playing what they were called at the time satellite tournaments where you had to play four weeks in a row in a location or a country. And you could walk away with zero ranking points, zero money, and actually a lot of losses. But you had to play the four weeks, you remember playing the satellites, I played them in Nigeria, I played them in India, I played them in in Egypt played them in Israel, I played in Belarus, all these places, which no disrespect to any of those countries. But I had to move outside I guess the comfort of of local European countries, because they were strong tournaments, and a lot of good players inside 200 in the world would play these tournaments. So I chose to try and find ranking points by maybe playing slightly weaker tournaments, to try and help myself boost up the rankings to be able to get into higher ranked tournaments to them where you have more opportunity to earn more money and earn more points. But you are sharing five in a row, sometimes sleeping on chairs, quite honestly, I remember traveling one location to the next driving through the night, spending nights in airports.

Daniel Kiernan  26:04

Did you enjoy it? Did you love it? On reflection,

Ross Hutchins  26:09

I would say that you you enjoy the times. And you remember the good times because you develop some very close relationships, because you can't travel with a coach, a fitness trainer, a stringer, an agent at that time. But I would say that I struggled a little bit at that time. Because I think that you have to love the sport so much at the time to be able to go out there and play 10,12,15,20 weeks away from from home at the time. And I would say that when you are away from home that many weeks in a row, and I hadn't been that type of person from a younger age, then I didn't enjoy so much being away as much as that continually. And there's a lot of players nowadays from Australia and Asia and, and even even the States who have to be away from home for six months a year. And I think at a younger age, I didn't enjoy that much because because largely I wanted to really try and progress through. And I wanted to try and play on the tour because that's always what since the age of 1314, you've been trying to trying to fulfill your potential. So I would say that certainly the the future satellite store at the time, I didn't love at all. And then I was also facing some very big challenges physically and medically on tour when I traveled away and played singles. And so then I really did enjoy that part of being very lonesome and and traveling on your own the whole time and trying to meet people and and find a way to keep your expenses low. I didn't enjoy it so much at that level now, quite honestly,

Daniel Kiernan  27:48

Whilst we're on the subject, how many players and we're talking ATP now, we fully fully respect WTA. And what's happening on the women's side as well. But in your opinion, how many players should be able to make a living? Singles,

Ross Hutchins  28:12

I would say that we should be providing an opportunity for 350 players to be able to play week in week out at the challenger circuits and higher. And that's really by giving opportunities to to play high level challenger tournaments by putting on more tournaments, how are they sustainable? How can those tournaments put the money up to be able to run to be able to pay the tournaments, and to be able to pay the players that prize money. So I would say that that should be a first goal of ours. And largely the cuts, the ranking cuts for Grand Slams are 250, 260. And I think there should be a churn inside of those cut offs for another 100 players. So therefore, we would say every single week 350 players could play if they want to play to be able to do well that week on the ATP circuit to be able to progress forwards. If they're successful, they rise up the rankings. If they're not successful few weeks, they lower down the rankings. And there's always an opportunity for them to go up and down the system.

Daniel Kiernan  29:13

And right now as it stands, how many do you think Do do you think you're close to that? 350?

Ross Hutchins  29:20

No I don't think we are yet I think we will be fingers crossed in the coming 18 months? I would put that a year I would say I would think currently there would be 150 to 200 players I would say at the moment And largely that's us working with our tournaments on redistribution of prize money meaning when someone loses first round qualifying or first remainder of the ATP tour level tournaments and the Grand Slam tournaments, the focus on the financials for those players to be able to have worked all year to play in these tournaments. You're then rewarded for competition it's not always based on winning, winning, winning. So that's really a funding mechanism. We also have travel grants for players inside of the ranking of 400, where we support them with with travel grants to try and help them travel on their tours, and also with pension contributions as well. So it's different ways to try and support it. But I would say at the moment, we are way short of that, but it's a collaboration across all the sports which needs to happen, so that wherever a player is playing, they're able to earn sufficient money and have and have sufficiently low expenses to be able to break even and have a net positive earnings in that given week, despite having good or bad results for that specific week.

Daniel Kiernan  30:40

It's a fascinating topic, and, and I want to I want to touch back on it a little bit later. But the question that I want to ask now, and if you don't mind, I'm gonna share a really small story. I remember a few years ago, one of the juniors was hitting with Novak Djokovic, and Djokovic shared a story where he said, You know, when he was younger, he lost in a couple of first rounds. And his dad had actually kind of pushed him to go and sign in for an ATP challenger event, I think, in Belgrade. And he kind of trooped off to this to this tournament, thinking, why am I going here? I've just lost like, first round futures the last the last three weeks. And he ended up qualifying and making the final of this event. And his words and how true this is. I don't know. And I'd love to know your opinion. His words were, if that hadn't have happened, maybe I wouldn't have I wouldn't have built the confidence up to believe that I belonged at that level, and and ended up having a career, he said, there's lots of players as good as me, that gets stuck and don't get through. Now, we're talking about 20 Time Grand Slam champion Novak Djokovic here. The next point is I had Cameron Norrie's coach Facu Lugones. On the on the show. And he was telling me that in Argentina, it's there's no money, it's very difficult. But he believes that if you're good enough, you're good enough, you know, and these players find a way and he said it might take a little bit longer, may take a little bit longer to get there. But you're Diego Schwartzman is you know, these players that have come through from very difficult backgrounds, if they've got a will, and they've got the ability, they will get there. If they're good enough, they're good enough. Do you think if you're good enough, you're good enough and you find a way through? Or do you think the current industry and structure set up potentially stop some players from finding their their way through to be kind of a fully fledged ATP to a player,

Ross Hutchins  32:49

I would say that the the best guys would progress through they find a way they would, they would be given opportunities either through their own ability to win. And therefore the opportunities comes from their ranking, or through wildcards because tournaments would like to give opportunities to good young players. So I think that the best players barring injury, or struggles physically, mentally, they would they would progress through, there's a lot of players in the world who need some help, who need some help to to, to be able to have dips in form, to have injuries, to have mental struggles to have coaching problems or family issues, which then may be six months to a year, which is a very long period in someone's life, because a lot of people's retired by the time that 25. So if you think in your seven year career between 18 and 25, if you take a year off from an injury or travel time, so that's that's one seven of your your career gone. So I think that, that some people need some help where it might not come as easily or as fast. And that's where the ATP or the Federation, or means of an individual themselves, which is difficult needs to try and prevail. And we need to try and help those players to be able to hang on in there during those tough times to be able to reap the rewards of their their desire since they've been playing since the age of five. And now they are maybe facing some challenge that 20 to 23. And a lot of them do need those year or two years to be able to be supported with the structure, the system the funding the support, to be able to come through it 2627 28 Because it's not too late. A lot of players are playing as you know, down until they're 35 to 40. Now, because there's more financial resources in the game, there's more support medically on site, there's more. There's more opportunities once you are in your latter 30s Now that it's not too late to progress at 26, 27, 28. But you also need to be able to one be good enough to have the desires to hang on in there. And then and then be able to hold hold firm that you are good enough in your belief Then when you are turning up and you have lost for a couple of years, at a certain level that when you do turn up that need to be challenged or need to be to have an opportunity, you can get on the run. And often when you do get on a run, winning becomes very easy. I mean, you can win, anyone can win when they've had a winning streak or 5,6,7,8,9 matches, it's when you've got a loss of 234 weeks and you're facing some real downtime, is when you've got to try and snap out of it and get on that winning mentality again. So I think I think it's our our right to try and support players and our duty try and support players in as as a tour and as a governing body to try and help the system. And, you know, as I've said before, we're doing a whole review of the challenger circuit and what is the right number of players coming through? Should there be opportunities through US college? Should there be opportunities to the best juniors? Should there be opportunities every week for players that have struggled for whatever reason that might be Should we try and help boost some players, how we do it still still TBD, to be able to get through the system in a system, which is very difficult, because you're always competing against someone that wants your winner, and someone else that is trying to take that result from you. And it's not easy traveling around the world and, and dealing with all the emotions of travel and a one on one sport to try and to try and get some momentum and try and move up the rankings.

Daniel Kiernan  36:18

I said I was gonna move back to your personal story, but I were in the subject now and I have to ask the question, you you mentioned about having a collaboration across the industry across the sport and as I mentioned to you at the start this is episode 165, 166 of the podcast so a lot of lot of lot of tennis brain has come on and and a lot bigger than my brains and is filled my head with with many things and challenge my philosophies and you know, proved my thoughts, right prove my thoughts wrong in all of these bits. But one of the constant messages that people talk about is this this fracture within the sport you know, tennis is tennis, but there's ATP WTA ITF grand slams, there's there's many there's many parts to it, many moving parts to it, what's on the inside, what is going on to bring that together so that we're we're talking a bit more about tennis, and we're not necessarily pointing fingers of blame it that which that which organization within tennis it is that is made some decisions. Worth it? I

Ross Hutchins  37:32

think it's it's a very necessary topic of I can say that first and foremost because we are a sport, which is phenomenal. And we all love tennis. Hopefully everyone listening, loves tennis and how can appreciate tennis and what it's trying to bring. Under the leadership of our chairman Andre Gaudenzio, now CEO, Massimo Calverley they have really tried to drive this mindset with the other governing bodies and I call the other the governing bodies, the seven bodies of tennis, which they're not all governing bodies because the four grand slams are are the four grand slams. And they could be tennis Federation's or Wimbledon, which is, which is a private member's club. But the governing bodies of the seven of them, including WTA, ITF, and ATP have been working together every couple of weeks to have discussions about how we can progress forward together in a in a less fractured way. We are too fragmented the how we commercialize the sports how we how we approach rules and format, I should say we have been very fragmented. And I would say the last couple of years has been a real efforts to try and to try and align across key pieces moving forward. Are we there yet? Not yet. But clearly in this in phase two of the ATP strategic plan. And I think in general, the governing bodies plan moving forward, phase one being sought out our internal house at the ATP, which we're very pleased that that's been successful. And now we look forward to implementing that. And phase two is now making sure that moving forward we do work together to make sure that this fragmentation of which the fan something which our our leaders of our sport are really trying to have everyone internally in each organization focus on the fan and the consumer and that people wanting to to live and breathe tennis are the focus points and the fancies tennis is tennis. They don't see the difference between a tournament at Queen's for example, versus a tournament at Wimbledon. They don't realize that Queens run under the ATP structure and women's run by Wimbledon which is a Grand Slam. And the same thing with our biggest tournament the last 1000 tournaments and he was in Miami, in Shanghai in Paris and Canada, these major cities around the world. We want to try and raise the profile of those tournaments. So there isn't such a gap between our highest level tournaments and the Grand Slams that are phenomenal tournaments monsters of tournaments, brilliant tournaments. And also the fact that the Olympics is run by the ITF, which is which is separate and the Davis Cup is with the ITF. But ATP Cup is with us. So there's there's, there's, there's too much of, of this separation between the governing bodies, when actually, when we look at a calendar from January to November of tennis, or December, if you include the challenger tournaments, really everyone wants what we've discussed so far, the last half an hour, which is an opportunity to move up and down the rankings for the players, for the fan to be able to understand how someone can move from one ranking to the next ranking for one tournament level, to the next tournament level. And when someone is able to be successful, they see them rise up the rankings. And you can also learn about those individuals off camera behind the scenes, not just what you see on the court, but also short form content and what happens in their personal day to day lives and the positive and negatives of being a professional athlete. So we are collaborating very closely with WTA. Now across marketing, sponsorship, commercial rules, and a lot of our approach towards situations which has been phenomenal. It's been brilliant. It's been a real breath of fresh air and we're enjoying collaborating, I'm sure there'll be more collaboration there. And we've got great relationships with the, with the grand slams, and the ITF, which are developing stronger and stronger, I would say by the month. So that is definitely a goal. But I think it'd be right for a lot of people that would have talked about in the past in saying that it has been too fragmented because largely, we all have our membership groups, the ATP members of the players and the tournaments, the IETF members of the nations, the Grand Slams are individual tournaments that are working for their Federation's. So when everyone has different boards and different structures, everyone does have to, in the end, look out for themselves. But what what we're trying to do and what the sport is trying to do is look out for the sport, and trying to think first about the sport and the fans before thinking about necessarily your members or your individual boards.

Daniel Kiernan  42:00

And where does the PTPA fit into that, too. They are they like a fly that's flying around, and you've got to just swat them away because they're, they're causing problems and focus away from from what you're doing. Does it play a role in the fact that it creates while you get rid of any monopoly? It creates a challenge, you know, and often with challenges and you know, comes a little bit more reform and a little bit more focus focus in certain areas, how have the PTPA been viewed?

Ross Hutchins  42:38

Well, I think generally the ptpa have covered worked very hard the last couple of years, we talked about the different governing bodies, and and how they are have to think about themselves, but also about the general wider sports. And there is a focus on on the PTPA for player representation. I think being head of the players division previously and exclusively as my role and now being overseeing the whole tour of the men's professional game players are a enormous priority for the ATP and for the sport in general. They are the talent, they're the athletes, I was one myself, I have the utmost respect for them admiration. And I think the show that the players put on in these incredible venues is just breathtaking. It's absolutely incredible knowing what they have to go through from a younger age physically now, I think as athletes, competitors and individual mindsets, it cannot be underestimated how strong they are, and how how much respect myself and ATP would have for the players. There is a structure inside the ATP where the players representation is, is just as high as anything. Because the way it was that some people don't know but the players are 50% of our ATP organization. And they have a seat on our board, which is the only decision making of our whole sports is made by the ATP board. And 50% of our boards are elected representatives of the players. Whereas in other sports structures where players may have a union or independent decision making power, they don't sit at the board decision making level. They sit at a different level where they have to then request for for certain things to the decision makers, whereas in our sport, they are the decision makers things are 50% players 50% tournaments and our chairman that's our seven person board. So what I would say is it does showcase the importance of players but that was always been the case for the ATP and the WTA. And we think that there is there is very clear defined representation for the players and we do have that knowledge of the players we have a player Council structure of 10 individuals including Roger and Rafa and Kevin Anderson, Bruno Soares, a lot of players over the years that are are involved in our play Council. And we have those players elect our player board reps that are the ones that make the decisions. So we feel that that it's a very positive structure, that it can work very, very well, that it does work very well. And that the representation of the players, which is largely what the ptpa are asking for, in a lot of what of what they request is actually handled very well. And in a very good structure to be able to, to be able to fulfill tennis's potential at the ATP tool.

Daniel Kiernan  45:30

I think my big thing was, we could talk for hours on it, and I'd love to talk to you more on that. But I also want to say thank you for coming on and talking about it. You know, I think, I think that's also a massive step for, for us as fans, coaches, you know, players out there, you know, to, to know that their voice is being heard, to know that there's openness, transparency, you know, and, and bringing these conversations to the table, you know, and I think one of the big things I took from it, the acknowledgement, it's not perfect, but we're trying and, and I think there's a lot to be said for that. And, you know, well done to yourself and the team for continuing to try and drive drive those those things forward. You know, we do have an incredible sport and we a sport that we're all very proud of a sport that we all love being involved in. And and I'm sure it'll continue to go from strength to strength, but I do, I, we jumped into that topic, it wasn't necessarily my plan to jump straight into that topic. But I want to take you back to you to your journey to Ross actions, the tennis planter, and I want to take you back to 2011 and 2011 I believe to quarterfinals of Grand Slams, you know, Wimbledon, Wimbledon US Open, playing with Andy Murray at Paris Masters, things going very well, you know, your, your career going from strength to strength, I believe as high as 28 in the world in doubles, you know, really starting to establish yourself. And then 2012 I brought an illness, a situation that you don't wish for your worst enemy, you know, and and eventually you got to the bottom of it diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma. And and your whole world changed, you know, so if I take you back to that period, can you talk our listeners through through that period of time for you?

Ross Hutchins  47:32

So it was, I guess a lot of ups and downs really, and haven't really talked about it in a few years, actually. So I need to refresh even though even though it was a very prominent time, my life was probably, as you say, the most successful time on court during that period of time from developing a strong partnership with with Colin Fleming, who was a good friend of mine, and we had dropped down the rankings a little bit or hadn't played so well. Over the probably 2010 period. And then we started actually at the Challenger level went to a couple of challenges at the lower level played in Kazakhstan and and another location where Colin and I went there and thought, right, we need to get some confidence we need to start building again a little bit and start learning about each other. So we managed to build a relationship started to understand each other very well. And started to have some decent results. We moved up from probably at the time we were ranked around 80 dropped from 30 to 80 moved up from 80 to 30. And we were feeling good. Last a couple of heartbreakers in the quarters of the US where I served for the match in the course of the US I remember that. And I think like match points in that match and in the course of Wimbledon was a break up in the fifth as well and lost that match. And then actually in 2012, I think this was we were in the top eight in the running for the end of your masters. So we were feeling good. But throughout that year, I was just struggling physically, I was struggling with back problems. I was struggling with energy I was struggling with just various different physical activities which were quite abnormal. Even though I faced a lot of challenges in my career. These were abnormal pains. So then actually, it became a time where I was actually in La Manga at the time in Spain on end of year training base. I really wasn't feeling good and actually managed to to finally speak to a physio that I trusted very much an excellent physio we've previously had now the last 5,6,7 years of work with with Andy Murray, actually, really good guy who advised that I would go home and get some checks done. So I managed to get some checks done and then fast forward in a couple of months. Had the news that it was very challenging that I'd been I'd been diagnosed with severe and advanced Hodgkin's lymphoma as you said. So then it was really a different mindset then about how to manage the situation. And I think just See the confidence that I built up over over my career that I had, I'd got through difficult challenges both on and off the courts and managed to come through them well, and that all of this with a good six months to a year ahead of me could become a bit of a distant memory, but you had to take it, the unknown you had to take in your stride. And I also saw it as an opportunity to learn a lot at the time for maybe what I hadn't had the opportunity the last five to 10 years to actually educate myself and other elements of of life, or business or of work, where I've been very much tennis orientated over the last previous five to 10 years. And I saw it as an opportunity to learn at the same time whilst I was fingers crossed, getting better. So I had a lot of support from family friends, doubles partner with Colin and, and had opportunities to work with the Davis Cup team, with broadcast and television, with the Queen's Club tournaments, with with a lot of different personal projects that I also took myself upon to try and understand and advance my own career off court, whilst having chemotherapy. And I think, once I then came back to tennis after six to eight months of chemo, and then well, six months of chemo, and then six months worth of trying to build the body up again, I realized that I was a very much more well rounded person, much more advanced in the way I thought about things, and my body was not strong enough, after six months after that, to then be able to continue playing, I just wasn't physically strong enough based on all the treatment that I'd had. So it was then a good chance for me to then move into, I guess, my post tennis career, probably largely earlier than I would have expected at 27. And I would have had seven good years of tour on tour. But most of us present planes or 35, to 40. Nowadays, as I mentioned earlier, but 27 was my time. And so then I stopped playing and had the opportunity based on what I undertook. Whilst I was unwell to be able to step into the next next chapter of my life.

Daniel Kiernan  52:11

It's, it's incredible, and extremely inspirational hearing you talk about how you were able to just switch that mindset, and and see it as an opportunity. You know, and I, I'm a massive believer of when when bad news happens to try and say the word good, because there's other opportunities going to open. But when it comes to health, I don't know whether I'd be able to do that, you know, when it comes to your own personal health and the fear of, of what that of what that entails. So your your your positive spin in the way that you've done, that is incredible. But the moment when you were told the diagnosis, and then the days and weeks afterwards, can you can you explain to the listeners how difficult that was?

Ross Hutchins  53:13

The diagnosis was actually not that difficult, because I actually had sense that it was something pretty extreme. By the amount of checks the amount of tests, I was doing, the amount of concern on the consultants faces. I had a brilliant oncologist, Dr. Cunningham, he was outstanding, someone who I owe everything to outstanding, but it was more around the other people he was he was very, very diligent in how he approached things, but I think I knew it was coming. So I didn't know what it was. And I didn't know what the next steps would be. But I felt that by the time I got a diagnosis, you have to go through so many levels. And so many discussions that I prepared myself for a period of time off the court, then when you know that you have to take chemotherapy every two weeks and to the certain level that it had progressed to you start obviously the the mindset of you know, what's the survival rate or what's the next steps or how do you best come through a situation you speak to a lot of people a lot of friends who gave advice, things either diet or exercise or sleep or dealing with chemo or, or or how best to try and mentally cope with the situation and I in a way just pick and chose some things that I felt weren't going to be beneficial for myself. So I can chose how much I how much I ate or the type of things I changed my diet extremely drastically. I pick and choose how much exercise I did or how much work I did or, or or the type of people I wanted to be around as well in that period of time. And the amount of time I wanted to spend with People, I was, in a way very open to advice. But I also myself and people close to me chose the type of advice that I thought was beneficial. Because often, when you're in those situations with a lot of different medical problems, you get given a lot of information, but actually the advanced consultants and doctors, they don't know how you're going to react to certain treatments, it's a little bit up in the air, you're going to react really well to chemo or you're going to is your body not gonna respond to chemo. So, and the same with other treatments. So in the end, I was able to have a really good team around to try and help me get through it. But it was difficult, especially at the start of the first chemo treatment. And I always had a goal of, of knowing that right, in two months, two months is gonna be my next checkpoint. Then two months after that is my next checkpoint. So I gave myself eight weeks without thinking one year ahead, I gave myself eight weeks to try and find a way that in eight weeks, I was going to have have to have delivered certain metrics or certain achievement points, that I felt that in eight weeks, so I get positive news. And great I've taken next step, if I don't get positive news, then we'll pivot and I'll go down a different direction. And we'll try something else, maybe from the advice that I've been given. So I gave myself short term targets, with regards to all the things I've mentioned, to then make sure that unfortunately, I did react, and the body did react well, for those checkpoints. If they didn't react, well, then, who knows? I don't know how I would have reacted. But I would have hoped that I would have reacted in a in a positive way. Because I think that the mindset to be able to believe that you're gonna get out of this alongside the treatment, helping you is extremely important.

Daniel Kiernan  56:38

Incredibly pragmatic, the way that you you've gone about that, and that the epitome of Control the Controllables. You know, that's, that's what the whole podcast control, the controllables is about that ability to go Alright, well, what is in my control? Where do I put my energy? You know, and there's no bigger challenge than you went through with that. I have to bring in, there's two people I want to speak to before we move into the quick fire round. And the first one is Andy Murray. And, you know, we go on, and I think the first time I heard it, because I don't think it was out in the public was after he played and I think believe he won in Brisbane. And I think memory serves me right up. Grigor Dimitrov in the final. And he got noticeably emotional as he as he spoke to, to everybody afterwards and dedicated it to one of his best friends which which was, which was yourself and that if memory serves me, correct, then the News, the news came out How? How did that make you feel? I guess, hearing that, I'm guessing you are watching on TV? Hearing that on on, on television. Andy Murray. Yes, one of your best friends. But talking about that, globally, and so visibly emotional himself. How did that make you feel?

Ross Hutchins  57:59

Well, it was special, very special, because I didn't expect him to say something I didn't you never know the emotion of summer when it's going to encapsulate someone and I think his care for me at the time, and I'm sure still, and for many of his closest friends and family being such a family person and relationship person that he is, was very special. I mean, it was very moving. I didn't really think about how to announce something or when to announce it. It wasn't planned that he was going to be the one that announced it, I think it just it came out of him. So it then was a little bit of a reaction at the time of what to do next, how to treat the situation because it wasn't as I said, wasn't wasn't expected or planned for. But again, he was he was such a such a support person throughout that time and many times to say his closest friends when they are going through difficult times. Not something that many people or even myself would want to talk too much about but it's it's something which he does care very closely for people that he is close to as, as good friends do as good family, family, individuals to siblings or parents do. So it was special and he and he showed support all through my treatments, through what we did at the Queen's club with the exhibition where we raised all of that all of that money for for the Royal Master cancer charity to wearing the patch at Wimbledon to showcase the cancer charity which was treating myself and giving exposure to this charity and cancer treatments. And also through granting his his prize money from Queens. I think it was that year that he that he won to the same charity. So he did a lot of things to support me and support improving treatments and investment into trying to help other people become healthy again. So him and many people were very strong in this whole process and I'm eternally thankful to him and to many people throughout this time.

Daniel Kiernan  59:58

And the second person we we talked about your dad at the start at the start of the conversation and anybody that that knew Paul Hutchins you know we lost him just over three years ago now and you lost your dad but an incredible incredible incredible person someone who who has touched 1000s of people you know so you anyone that played any British tennis tournaments is saw saw him he will always had a word for everybody always had an amazing wave which I which I think when you are part of an organization like the LTA I think it's hard to, to feel as if you've got enough time to give to people. And and the one thing I would say about your dad he always had this amazing way of making you feel special, and he had time for you, regardless of the level that you were, you know, he was doing it with, with all the players, you know, how much does he continue to inspire you to be with you as you carry that, that legacy on?

Ross Hutchins  1:01:09

Well, he's, he's number one. So to me, I mean, how else to say a tee is the person who had the most impact in my tennis career and post tennis career, even when he was very sick a few years ago, he'd be the person that I would go to for advice and lean on for everything in life at him. And obviously, my wife and my family of people who I would entrust with everything I haven't everything I learned to this day. I think he'd be very proud of of the sport and how it's progressed, and also myself and how I'm continuing to try and do the right thing in our sports, and trying to do the right thing to try and help British tennis International Tennis and the global the global role that I have now, trying to do the best I can to try and improve the sports as we compete with other entertainment platforms, other sports around the world. I think he was always someone as you say a few people have said that to me down, you know, unconnected to yourself that he was that person who always gave time to people. And I think that's that's extremely touching thing to hear. Because it's not often that people who have had relatively high powered jobs, if I can call it that, therefore often take less time with people because they've always got something else or someone else wanting them. And it's something which I would like to learn off him and hopefully have learned off him and continue to, to do those type of things and to, to learn from his best qualities, even though he's not around anymore. And when people talk about him, it does remind me of key things that he would want me to be like, and he would want people that I would have an impact on. But there were people that I would work with or colleagues of mine to take those type of morals and those type of personality traits that he had all the way until he was 73. And all the way working throughout his career that he never lost. And that's something which means a lot to myself and something which people that have spent time with him, would continually remind ourselves internally, that he would expect that. So not to let ourselves down by by not doing what he would expect. So I think about him a lot as a lot of people would certainly have family members, but also people that have worked with him a lot. And he would still be the fundamental person in my head, when I make decisions or when I when I try to put forward the best thing for for our sports, or whatever decisions we have to make on a day to day basis, he would be the person that that would sense check me despite not being around and have a strong impact in the way I would think about certain topics, and how I'd approach certain topics as well.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:49

It's a lovely way to end it's he's the right person for us to end on. Very, very quick, quick fire that we do. Are you ready to one two minute thing you can rapidly go through it? What does control the controllables mean to you?

Ross Hutchins  1:04:06

I believe that everyone has a choice in their decision making you can, you can take an easy decision or you can take a tough approach. And I think that when you do try and try and make a decision or take a decision with your life or with your family, that that you have the ability to make sure that the options you have are done the right way and the approach you take is approach the right way. So I think you have to be able to be true to yourself. You have to be able to be honest with yourself and you and you have to be always thinking about not just what you is beneficial to yourself. But also with with the right approach beneficial to everyone that could be your other family members, your other friends, the other the other people in the world, the environment or people around you in the sports. Not just always what's good for yourself.

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:58

Roger or Rafa.

Ross Hutchins  1:05:04

A mix of both both just off the charts off the charts. Incredible.

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:09

Favorite Grand Slam?

Ross Hutchins  1:05:12

I would say when I was playing it would have been Wimbledon. Because of my connection to it. I actually now the last few years, I think all grand slams, including the French last week. Regardless, I think they've done phenomenal changes. And they've advanced their areas very, very well, Tennis Australia continue to advance US Open the night sessions and the whole enormity of New York City. Very difficult to to, to pick one out of those four, but at the time when I was playing with them because of being homegrown

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:41

Forehand or backhand.

Ross Hutchins  1:05:44

My strength was my backhand return. Although when I hurt my wrists halfway through my career and could only hit one handed backhand in practice, as she helped my forehand improve a lot. But my backhand return was my strength

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:56

server return.

Ross Hutchins  1:05:59

I was as a singles player better return on his doubles player better server. I think that was probably very important to have a strong serve. And I was always the lead server in my partnerships throughout my career. So I'd probably say serve. But there's two shots, the two most important shots from tennis, but I would say it was more of a server,

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:15

Medical timeout or not?

Ross Hutchins  1:06:19

Well, medical falls on the wrist myself ATPs has. So I have to stay with diplomatic answer here. I think there should be medical timeouts. And we're actually in discussion about a rule change moving forward, which is uniform across the governing bodies and across the sport. So that's the most important things that we're all approaching this the same way like we are with with toilet breaks, and with with change of attire breaks,

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:43

And what's one rule change you would have in tennis.

Ross Hutchins  1:06:51

Probably having a uniform rule across tennis would probably be the rule change that I would have. So whatever rules we decide, it should be consistent. I think the confusion at the moment is is too much. And that there is considerable collaboration even recently involving players on our committee to try and get their involvement. So I think that everyone wants to come forward with with ensuring that there is consistency and not a confusion amongst our sport.

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:17

And last question, but think before you answer, because you are responsible for bringing this next person on to the podcast. Who should our next guests be on Control the Controllables?

Ross Hutchins  1:07:34

I would say that coaches are often underestimated in the world of sports. So I would say a top coach would be it would be very appealing. I mean, you're a very good coach down as well. But I would say someone that has worked with a lot of players and someone who understands the mindset of a player in such an intimate way, which many people wouldn't, so not sure who I have. But a coach I think would be someone quite interesting to speak to.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:06

We need you we need you to give a name.

Ross Hutchins  1:08:12

I'll say former coach of of Andy Murray Danny Valverde the current coach Istanbul Rinka,

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:22

he would be a great guest. He would be a great guest. So I'm going to Cheshire

Ross Hutchins  1:08:29

I didn't know the question was Who can I get?

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:32

Absolutely. This is the passing of the baton. And one of the buttons at some point and we'll get you we'll get Danny we'll get everybody we need to be getting this baton passed and Mr. Murray as well. He's He's avoided me too long as brothers come on his mom's Come on, but he's avoid the guests. I mean, sorry, our listeners making the call out. So you need to have a little sneaky word with him at dinner sometime as well.

Ross Hutchins  1:09:00

Okay, I'll do my best.

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:01

Ross Ross, you've been a star an absolute star. I know I went longer than I said. Thank you for being such a sport for for sharing so openly. And well done on the great job you continue to do. And I look forward to catching up soon.

Ross Hutchins  1:09:16

Cheers Dan, thank you.

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:18

Thank you for listening. And I do have Vicki next to me. I must admit it wasn't easy to get her away from the TV. Last couple of weeks. She won't leave that TV watching Wimbledon and maybe a little bit of love Ireland as well. But it's it's been an amazing event the last couple of weeks.

Victoria Kiernan  1:09:36

It's been amazing what a tournament I literally feel like I haven't left our living room. We've had the telly on we can get BBC channels in Spain, but we can't get the red button. So we've had the telly and the Mac on at both times, flicking between all the courts. It's been brilliant. But golly, there's been some amazing matches and some amazing stories,

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:57

because there's not the point where you asked me about my prediction

Victoria Kiernan  1:09:59

I tell Wanna hear honestly, he has been so smug. Even at the start? Well, this was my prediction and Cameron Norrie. Ons Jabeur, I still can't say her name right by the way. I have had this for months. Every Grand Slam he's predicting on. She flops every time so I feel okay you can have you can have that one. She's She

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:19

I didn't even mention this. Moreover, at the start, she had made the quarterfinals. And I really really went big on Novak Djokovic, and I don't want Novak to win it but I just I just can't see him not winning it. I really, really can't. I would love to see Cameron already get past him. But I still stand by the Novak Djokovic prediction. But let's see. Let's see what happens in the next few days. It's it's been such an amazing sporting event. No ATP points. No WTF points. It doesn't seem like the players care too much about that. This moment. You know, the energy, the emotion that everyone is showing. And what a spectacle it really has been.

Victoria Kiernan  1:11:02

And so so many players for the Brits to be cheering on Lim Brody, Jack Draper had an amazing match against him. I know you mentioned you mentioned at the start. He he spoke so well when he was on the podcast a few weeks ago. And Alyssia Barnett and Jonny O'Mara that for me that fifth set tie break. That is the moment of the tournament for me. I said to my dad, if you watch any tennis that day, that tie break had everything when they beat Venus and and Jamie Murray one match. And Liam Brody as well. I actually cried after he won hissecond match. He was there's been some amazing moments.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:38

We can't not mention Heather Watson

Victoria Kiernan  1:11:42

See. So many I can't even remember

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:44

and actually have a I watched the first round match. He was on late on caught one. Very few people watching it was late. It was they were they were playing under the under the roof. And I think they ended up having to come off to play the next day. And it was flat and it felt like championships kind of come to the end. She came through it she made fourth round. Yes, I mentioned the points before I'm sure she will sitting at 120 in the world be thinking retrospectively, all I could do with those forefront points to push me back into the top 100 in the world. But I think in the moment none of the players are thinking about that.

Victoria Kiernan  1:12:22

And in the doubles as well. She had an amazing run, it felt like she was playing every day and just winning every day.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:28

Yeah, no, let's hope she and and all of the players that have that have had fantastic events can take that into the next few months. And we'll be hoping to get a few more of those players onto the podcast as well. But that brings us on to a conversation at the feels a bit strange. We're talking here about the Ross Hutchins conversation because it was so many weeks ago that I actually spoke to him now. And we will get on to the subject. I think and I know you give me the eyes a little bit when I talk about it. But I want us to be true to to ourselves true to everybody that is listening to this. We had to wait for the ATP to give us the ok. There were certain parts that they wanted us to take out of the conversation. And I guess it's been such a hot topic, the ATP has been such our topic. And then I want to differentiate between Ross Hutchins and the ATP at this point, because Ross was a star to come on and give his time and speak so openly. But the ATP haven't filled themselves with glory on the in certain, certain decisions, whether it's Feng Shuai and the decisions, you know, out out in China, the WTA seem to work very quickly and efficiently on that made a clear statement, ATP have avoided that you do hear all the time, the players complaining that maybe they're not looking out for them. You know, Ross gives some great arguments of how they are. But I just think these big organizations and it's it's very difficult. They're like large ships, and it's very difficult to maneuver and turn a large ship around. There's so many moving parts. There's so much that's going on, and all good intentions that Ross talks about within the episode. Let's see Let's see what changes are made. I wish they could be made quicker. It's it's like I say one of the things I struggle with governments and struggle with any big Federation's because it's a challenge to be able to do it. But I must admit I'm not sure I hold my breath, that there's going to be too many big changes made in the near future. Because that balance of business and looking after people is such a difficult one. And in the industry it feels as if everyone's still just looking after their own little business within within the business of or within the industry of tennis. And and maybe the players are the ones that then end up suffering and having someone like Ross on the ball hold someone that's in that position, who was 28 in the world who does have so many friendships? I know that he wants to make these moves. But let's see if he's able to push them through. Yeah, I

Victoria Kiernan  1:15:11

mean, that's what I thought was really interesting, you know, for us your average tennis fan, and we don't get to hear from the ATP directly, much. And I thought it was really interesting to hear that a lot of the things that, you know, a lot of the conversations that we hear being talked about, you know, the distribution of prize money match scheduling, it was, I thought it was good to hear that, you know, they are aware that they're looking at ways of improving things for the players, they are looking at addressing those issues.

Daniel Kiernan  1:15:38

They are, but it's, this is my thing. And Ross, if you're listening, apologies if you if you disagree with this. It's too political. I think I think that's my that's my that's my issue here. I think as soon as you have an organization that isn't speaking with transparency. And even if we take this controller control and listen to by a couple of 1000 people each time, you know, we're not talking about the BBC News here. Ross was absolutely willing to come on fair play to him, I tip my hat to Ross, we need more Ross Hutchins and people like Ross in these positions that are willing to front up to, to speak in a transparent way. I tried to get I've had a couple of umpires that have agreed to come on, they've asked the umpire the they've, they've asked the ATP, the ATP of them said, No, it feels so close shoppi in in these big organizations, it's then very difficult for the normal punter like me and you the the coaches in the world, the players, the communication, that's the biggest thing that I hear from the players and from the coaches, that the communication isn't open, and it's not transparent. So as soon as the communication isn't open and isn't transparent, the first thought is there's something to hide. And, and it doesn't feel then as if everyone's on the same page. So the things that Ross said, great, but we have been seeing those for 20 years, 30 years, you know, he used the 350 players that should be getting prize money and making a living from the sport. It's probably 200. Now, you know, that's great, that that's the intention. Let's see how that moves. You know, I'm not the expert in this field. But I also know, the distribution of revenue, and, and profit. You know, we talked about that in the NBA, I believe it's like 50 55% of that goes to the players. Whereas actually, on the tennis in the tennis world, it's a very low percentage. And ultimately, it'll come down to monopolies in our view, and that's what the ptpa was all about, you know, I was not a fan of how the PTP came out, they've proved to be a little bit of just hot fluff, there's not been a whole lot that's then been backed up from it, and ultimately, just have a little bit more accountability out there. Who do the players currently talk to? You know, where do the players get their voice heard? And I know the argument is, you've got your committee members. However, ultimately, the ATP as an organization is bigger than the players right now. Because there's there's no competition to that. So let's see how it all develops. In the coming weeks, months and years. I the last point I'd like to make is I hope, the ATP can come together with IETF grand slams. WTA and, and form a stronger industry for us all, you know, down to Academy level, club level, we are all linked in the same industry. And I thank Ross for coming on and at least starting to open that conversation. And that takes us into into Ross and what an inspirational story he's had and maybe not surprising with the father that he's had in Paul Hutchins, the late great, Paul Hutchins, who I had the pleasure of knowing very well, quite a special man. And he seems to be continuing to, to pass that on to his to his kids and to Ross on a daily basis.

Victoria Kiernan  1:19:34

You know, when I was telling some of our team at the academy that Ross was coming on the show, the first thing they said, you know, we've got a few Brits on the team. The first thing they said was about Paul, oh, what a great guy such a lovely guy. It was a common theme that they all went straight to him and was singing his praises.

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:54

No, absolutely. And the the impact he's had on British tennis is really really been, has been monumental. And I think even if we go into the cancer, the struggles that that Ross had, and I remember when that came out, it was a January time and it was shocking news to hear. And just to sit and look at him and see his face, the way that he's dealt with that. And, you know, potential terminal illness, which I think scares the hell out of all of us, you know, how we would deal with that situation? Just incredibly pragmatic, incredibly, control the controllables. Okay, what's, what's next? They won't one thing that stuck out to me said, you know, I try I try this medication. And if it works, then great, we continue, if not, okay, we take that off the list, and we move on to the next one, you know, and to have that, have that mindset to be able to do that. And I guess, you sit in any job interview, and you're able to talk through how you've dealt with that in such a way, you know, those attributes, I'm sure very high up on the list of anyone that's looking to employ someone. So it's not surprising to see that Ross has gone on to these big roles, and I'm sure bigger roles to cover as well.

Victoria Kiernan  1:21:14

I mean, an incredibly inspiring mindset. I think the majority of us would go into panic mode and and worst case scenario mode and what how am I going to do what we're going to do, but he seems so practical and methodical, and how he kind of like you said, he broke down, he broke it down into short periods. And I think that just makes that must have made it so much more manageable for him. And for his family, I imagine as well, because it's not just the person who's going through this, that it's affecting, obviously, it's it's all of you, and he's has such a close family. And I'm sure that was a massive support for him that while he talked about it, and they want to support his family were his brothers or sisters and his friends. And it was lovely to hear the support that he had from Andy Murray as well.

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:59

It's nice, the other stories isn't as it is, you know, and that we all I think over the next 2030 years, we're all going to be trying to unpack Andy Murray and what's made him work, you know, because he'll go down as arguably the greatest ever British male sportsman, you know, and I think it is he's done so much for the sport so much for equality in the sport, is someone that we just all want a piece of we want to know, what was Andy like, was only really like this, as you really miserable is Ivana. And I think gradually over the last few years, we've seen the softer side of Andy, and to hear some of those more personal stories come through as well, is really special.

Victoria Kiernan  1:22:41

And he gave us some great insights I thought as well from his junior days. And I always think this is really helpful for young players and parents to hear these stories. You know, we've said it before, there's not one path. There's lots of different pathways and and I think, hearing him talking about how he didn't feel any pressure as a junior based on you know, who his dad was, and the other players around him at that time. You know, Ross speaks so openly and we're so lucky on this podcast to hear so many former players talk about their junior days. It just normalizes it for players that are going through that the moment there's so much inspiration they can take the so much they can learn from them. And seeing where a lot of the players are now you know, he's got a he's working for the ATP has gone on he had a really successful doubles career represented his country won a silver in the Commonwealth Games, and now working for the ATP just, it creates a pathway that I think a lot of juniors can look up to. And Ross is such a good speaker as well, which always helps.

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:41

And I think there's two points I want to make, and I'm conscious. Certainly I've gone on. I've talked about monopolizing, I think I've monopolized this list after after chatter. Apologies for that biggie. But the first point I'd like to make is the normalizing bit I think that's a it's a really important piece because juniors, parents, coaches, we live in the moment. And what we feel in the moment is not always how we will reflect on that period. So I'm sure Ross had days where he felt pressured. I'm sure he had days where he was sick of being called Paul Hutchins and son. But his overarching memory of that period, is that he wasn't under pressure. And I think that's the important bit here. And I think, quite often, players, coaches and parents and we go through it ourselves. We can react on a daily basis, or we can react to something that's happening in the moment. Whereas if we're able to step back and see the global view of things, we actually probably will reflect on that period of time as being very progressive as being, you know, a continued development, whatever it might be for for the tennis player, and the parents and the coaches involved. So I think that's That's important. And I think that's an important point, like you say, so nicely there to normalize, you know, normalize what you're going through, it's not saying you will get crazy to be under pressure, you're gonna have days, you're gonna have days where you don't enjoy it so much, you're gonna have challenges on a daily basis, but over a period of time, I think that is what you know, will, will ultimately stand you in good stead. And then my second bit, and it goes back to what our philosophies are at sort of tennis academy, and why we've set up the academy. Tennis is a vehicle, you know, and it's this amazing vehicle that takes us through life. And, and that might take us to Wimbledon. And it might, it might take us into, into working for the ATP working as a school teacher, whatever it might be, but you can draw on these experiences,

Victoria Kiernan  1:25:50

as Ross Smith said that he drew on his experiences in tennis to help him through, you know, one of the most difficult periods of his life

Daniel Kiernan  1:25:57

100%. And that, that skill, that ability to and you talked about Vicki that ability to ultimately goal set, in order to set small, little steps to be able to say, alright, this is next, this is where I put my focus. This is the process, you know, the outcome is, I want to be healthy, and I want to I want to live, you know, that's the outcome, you know, but in order to get there, there's a process to go there, change the diet, try this, try this new medication, rest, you know, what is it that that you are trying, and I think that is a massive, massive, massive positive, that isn't talked about enough in our sport, you know, the ability to do all of those things, to take those skills, and to put them not just into your next career, but to put them into your personal lives, your private lives, which Ross has done so well. And, Ross, you've been a staff. Thank you. Thank you for coming on. Views on ATP and big, bigger organizations. You know, that's just you know what it is, I think it's a continued work in progress. But as with anything that's work in progress, it has to start with a vision with an intention. And thank you for sharing yours and the ATPs vision and intention over the next few months.

Victoria Kiernan  1:27:18

Can I go back and watch the semi finals now? They're on start for a link straight back to the strip back to

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:25

the men's double.

Victoria Kiernan  1:27:29

Well enjoy a great weekend wherever you are. haven't actually seen the forecast. I don't know what the forecast is like back back in back in London. But hopefully that roof can stay off. And yeah, it's going to be exciting weekend. Whatever happens. We'll see if Dan's predictions do come true. Or he'll be incredibly nauseating on Sunday. I'm

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:48

Sure don't want to make me any more smug. I thought you were saying what's the weather forecast like here because I don't know I don't look for five months of the year what the weather forecasters here. I'm just picking which shorts I'm going to wear. And I'll be picking my whites as we go to a Wimbledon party over the weekend to watch the final with some friends being promised some strawberries and cream. It won't quite be the same as SW 19 But we hope to be back there next year. All the best to everyone and until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables