How to Nurture the Next Generation of Great Tennis Players with Justin Sherring

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 219 of Control the Controllables. And this time I'm coming from Miami as we start the second tournament of the sunshine swing with Carla's Alcaraz and Iga Swiatek, our winners of the singles titles over the weekend. And arguably bigger than that is is The Big Tennis Shake Up that is happening. Anyone that is following the news would have seen that the ATP and WTA have got a big deal on the table with the Saudis. We've been talking for years. When's it going to happen? When are we going to follow golf? You know, it's an emotive topic. But we can't argue that it's not a fascinating topic in our industry. And that's hot off the news that we had a few weeks ago, coming out that the Grand Slams are trying to align to set up a new Elite Tour. There's many things, if you've been listening to the last few episodes, we have been drip feeding some of this information to you. And later on this week, I'm going to be getting together with John Morris, who is the agent of Andre Rublev and Linus fitta. Lena, born a church and used to be the agent of Nick Kyrgios. And we're going to share a little bit more information on that. So look out for that episode. And then we've talked about it but it is happening April the 19th. In London, our first live show and we're getting our panelists together, I can announce that also John Morris is going to be on the panel. And then our amazing Freddie Nielsen, who has been with us for all of the previews and reviews of the grand slams the 2012 men's doubles Wimbledon Champion, and then Gabriella Dabrowski. Gaby, who I've been fortunate enough to be coaching over the last seven, eight months, three time Grand Slam winner two mixed doubles, and then joined Erin Routliffe as she won the US Open last year. Gaby is also a board member at the WTA and brings a great insight. So those are first three panelists, and we're going to be unpacking that the whole tennis shakeup. You know, is it good for tennis, you know, we're going to be talking to you guys discussing that. And it's going to be an opportunity for 70 or 80 of you to have a ticket to come and meet us or to ask your questions in person to meet with us to have a drink with us and talk about tennis. There'll be plenty of opportunity to interact in questions and answers. And we are so excited. So if you can't make it in person, then we are going to have a live stream there so you can still interact with us live as it is happening. So that's coming up. But today's guest, Justin Sherring. And you might ask who's Justin sharing for some of you you might not know well, I'll tell you who Justin Sherring is, he's been coaching Joe Salisbury for 20 years plus now from, from a young boy all the way through to being a multiple Grand Slam champion and he is out here in Indian Wells and now Miami with myself. And these does an amazing job. He was Jack Draper's coach, he developed him all the way through and still plays a role within Jack's tennis. He coached Johanna Konta, as well for a few years and recently, Mark Ceban, the young British player that won the famous elusive title in Tarbes in France last year, if you win the under 14 event there, it's a really good indication that you're gonna be a tennis player. And Justin is amazing. He's brilliant. I love the conversation. You guys are going to be to I promise you, you're going to be bouncing. You're going to want to get out there. You're going to want to play tennis. He is a really inspirational guy. So I'm going to pass you over to Justin Sherring. So Justin sharing a big welcome to Control the Controllables, how're you doing?

Justin Sherring  04:16

I'm great. Dan, what a pleasure this is and congrats on being the Best Tennis Podcast.

Daniel Kiernan  04:22

Subjective!

Justin Sherring  04:24

Congrats, mate.

Daniel Kiernan  04:25

Thank you and it no and the honor is all mine. You know and to, to have you come here and talk about a subject that you know so well. And you know that as as the coach of Jack Draper for many years from from a young age, Joe Salisbury all the way through, and I know Jo Konta for a couple year period. I know many players along the way that have benefitted from your knowledge experience passion, and there's That's, I guess what the main stare of this chart I can't have you on without jumping into your coaching philosophy, but as we always do Justin, to give that context because I often think actually people's start into tennis can often then link into what their coaching philosophy becomes, you know, and obviously, you're you a very good play yourself. So give us a bit of an overview. How did this sport get into your veins? When did it start? Where did it take you before we go along the coaching journey? Yeah. Well, thanks,

Justin Sherring  05:32

Dan. I'll tell you what I've got really, it's quite a funny story, actually. Because my, my parents split up when I was young, Brenda, I used to spend weekends with my dad, and he was a Import Export big business guy. And I'd sort of wander down to his warehouse. And when I was seven, he had a warehouse full of skateboards. And he was one of the first guys to bring fiberglass skateboards into the UK. So, you know, my dad's working, he's busy, I've got a week with him or whatever. And I jumped out on the skateboard, and I'm playing on a skateboard. And next thing I know, I'm hooked on skateboarding. And I become the British champion under 10 British champion of skateboarding, right, first of all, so I get into skateboarding and love skateboarding. And I you know, I always say to people, I'm just glad that it wasn't a warehouse full of Barbie dolls, because they're different, you know, different styles alive but anyway, I got into that and then

Daniel Kiernan  06:25

Justin, very quickly because I have to be honest on this I had a cynical question came to my head and I and that's that's actually not me. I know that people love jumping in and bashing the LTA, British tennis, Federations whichever country it is, and I'm certainly not that. But the cynical question that came into my head is, were you, were you receiving funding? Or were you? Were you going through a whole kind of talent ID scheme and these things, but there is a, I have caught myself on that asking that in a cynical way. I'm asking it more in the way of it is interesting, because if you were the British champion of another sport, I guess the comparison, in contrast between what you've experienced in tennis, and what you experienced in skateboarding, are there any similarities? Is it completely different as a setup? Was it easy to dividual? Sport, right?

Justin Sherring  07:24

Well, it's interesting. Yeah. Because if you like I'm at a mini tennis age, seven years old, there's no structure of skateboarding, and this is in the 1970s, late 70s, that would have been like 1977 78, no structure. So you're literally left down to your own love and passion and literally unwrapping these skateboards and going, Well, this looks pretty fun. We're having a go and then dad saying would you want to go down to skate city and we go down to skate city, and then you get into and you love it and and you really pick up and I think it's important to sort of say this was my beginning because it could have been transferable into what I did. You know, a few years later, I sort of rock up at my dad's business again, I go into the warehouse and what's he got? He's got the first shipment of aluminium tennis rackets. Okay, he's got the this place is like floor-to-ceiling in aluminium rackets and, I go down, I grab a racket out I go to the shop, I buy one of those balls that you even your dog would say I'm not doing that anymore. I'm not doing that. And he had this this wall again around the back of his where we used to park the cars. It was a long long wall. And I just used to hit against the wall when my dad was working all day and it got so into my into my rhythm into my life. And I'd hit and hit in it against the wall and luckily you know this in North London in the Eastern Precinct. It was not there was not the most affluent area in the world and, and this guy was taking his groceries back to his car one day and he walked and he stopped and he watched me hitting the ball against the wall. And he goes, Can you do that, pretty good. You like as? Yeah, I like it. But you know, kind of be nice if I could play a bit of tennis that was funny because I run a I run a Tennis Park Program down the road. A little place called Gladstone Park in North London, run by a guy called David Sims, who's a pretty, the David Sims Park Tennis legend of all legends and, and you get lucky in this life. So you put you put a little bit out there. And you put a little bit out into the into the universe and the universe says quite like what you're doing quite like that. So guy came along, he said, Look, come down to Park on Sunday morning. I hook up with a bunch of guys. I'm like, wow, you love this thing as well. Because, you know, there wasn't much tennis on television. You'd be lucky if you watched a little bit on Sunday finals on grandstand or something but nothing. It wasn't all over the place. It was kind of it was all about football and rugby and cricket, which I also love. But certainly it just got me hooked. And my dad would say to me, we lived it. We lived we lived in the back of the park. So I would run down the end of my garden jumped over the fence. I'm running up into the park and that was spent every evening in the park with a guy called hurryin, who was a good buddy of mine who ended up ended up running his own Um tennis program about 15 miles away from me so we have a laugh about that. It's amazing how these early years can really influence. And yeah, I spent all summer and, and I think ultimately we talk about philosophy I think, you know, wherever I am whoever I'm with, it's like well I actually I love it I actually want to do this because you can bet your bottom dollar there's a bunch of guys out there that are going to love it more than you so whatever happens, you better love it. So that's my early start. And you know, I was winning football trophies and winning cricket trophies and and playing a lot of rugby and, and my dad said, Well, what do you want to do? I said, tennis is my trophy, football we shared the trophy I want my trophy so I quite liked that quite like that individual expression ability to and I wasn't very good. I wasn't a very but I tried very hard I always remember I tried very hard. And I spent a lot of time playing and I you know got to Middlesex County level and, and as a junior and that was a you know pretty much it in this country and played a little bit. I played in an inner city match that David Sims organized in 1985 against against Inner City New York. And it was a big inner city GLC involved in 85. And you never believe the captains of the US team? The captains of the US Nearly you're not you're not far off me. You're really not. Captain of the US team was one Arthur Ashe. Wow. I know. Right? I know. Right? So. So we got Arthur Ashe. His assistant when by the name of Vitas Gerulaitis. So, you know, we're playing in Inner City Tennis in Brixton in Brockwell Park. We're playing against the American inner city team. And we lost 15 and 1, and how old were they then? I just want to know who the one was, that might have won that

Daniel Kiernan  11:57

Must have been a walk over.

Justin Sherring  11:59

Well, do you know what I'm six four down in the third set, tie break and break the last string on my racket. And my buddy sends me over one of those rosin or rackets? Yeah. 100 rosin or rocky and I've never seen this thing in my life. And I'm like, six, four match points down third set breaker. And I managed to win this tie break eight six

Daniel Kiernan  12:20

Clean sweep.

Justin Sherring  12:21

I know right? So so you know, so I was very lucky and really good people around me. You know, a big shout out to someone like David Sims, because you know, if you if you do what you do in your life, Dave and I Dan and I do what I do in my life is because we we want to influence you want to inspire people and make them feel amazing and and make them feel like they've got you know, got a purpose and this sport can give so much so, without someone like David Simms in my life, getting me started getting the kick started from the wall, I'm still going against the wall, probably right now. So that's, that's the best start for you,

Daniel Kiernan  12:51

then I tell you what, I considered not asking you. And I'll tell you why. Maybe it's my wife that tells me this because she admits them. She says sometimes we go on a bit too much at the start of these chats, before we get into the real meat of what the conversation is about. And I know that I want to talk to you about your different philosophies and, and your journey as a coach because you, you've got such a range of what you've done through through the ages. And obviously, it's with players that we know as well. So people want to know, you know, how have you have you been able to help them. But never again, when I doubt myself about asking the start of someone's journey, because that is a pretty special start, you know, and you can see how that set you up to do what you do. But the question that is in my head what what happened to the skateboard and because under ten GB skateboarding champion 1977 I knew that by the way, it was out there. It's on the it's on the notes. We've got it. We've got it on there. And it was 1977 is what my notes told me, not 78 What happened where did the skateboarding go?

Justin Sherring  14:05

With you know, my, my my my dad's business kind of went a little bit wobbly. Do you know what I tell you what happened? I'll tell you exactly what happened. I I got into tennis. But I always used to run up to the tennis courts in Gladstone Park in North London, in Doles Hill. I used to run up there, but I used to have my racket. And I said my skateboard and I used to skateboard home and the way down the hill. I was pretty, you know, pretty decently accomplished. And for whatever reason, I ended up going too fast on the way back, and I took such a tumble that there's these wonderful ladies who will help me I'm full of blood and we'll be back to my house and my dad's like, oh my god, what happened to you? Have you been attacked? I said, No, it happened eventually I fell off a skateboard and a bit like falling off a horse if you're going to if you're going to carry on riding you need to get back on straightaway and I and I didn't and tennis sort of took over and I I found it you know marginally saved from the skateboarding down steep hills. So that's pretty much it Dan.

Daniel Kiernan  15:03

Your first, your first experience of momentum. You know, Louis Cayer has probably told you a bit more about that over the years. But as you are flying down that hill, he will be loving the momentum that was being created. And that happened.

Justin Sherring  15:18

Not too much control. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. But that's, yeah, that's it. And the and the amazing thing is my, you know, my boys and my girls have been skateboards and they say, Come on, and jump on it. And it's weird, because I stand on a skateboard now, and it's, and I have no idea, no feelings for it whatsoever. Not something that has stayed with me. So

Daniel Kiernan  15:36

Well, my theory with languages because I've got three young kids here in Spain, and my goal with them educationally was to, they had to nail Spanish, you know, if we're going to live in Spain, they're going to be bilingual. And what I'd heard is you need to get to about 12. If you're, if you're fluent up at 12, it sets and it sticks pretty much for for your life, then. Maybe that's what skateboarding is, as well, you are maybe 12 months away from having the skateboarding skill for life, you know, the way the neuroscience behind it I don't know, what about your playing career, you know, because it's a very organic way that you've learned to play. And, again, I asked that question with everyone. And it's really nice to get a bit of a unique story, because it's often Yeah, my dad's a tennis coach, or my mom was a tennis coach. You know, I lived right next to a tennis club. And, and I always think there's got to be more creative ways that we get people into our sport, it feels a little bit of a, an old boys club in some ways that it just gets passed on. Again, it's over in your family art's not so the fact that yours is a very unique story, you know, in a factory and picking that up. So where did the tennis plan take you to you said Middlesex County, but you ended up playing properly. Did you? Did you play any international tennis? What what level eventually did you get to? And when did you then make that transition from that into coaching being a career you wanted to pursue?

Justin Sherring  17:15

Yeah, well, I'll tell you what my passion was tennis, but I just wasn't, I just wasn't good. I just wasn't good. I would try very hard. And I'm the guy that would try until I met I've looked back a little bit and I wonder, I wonder why sometimes I can push this on guys that I work with in players that I work with now. Is that trying your hardest until the until the very end is, it's almost like I don't realize I hadn't realized how important it is. And was, since you've asked me that question. I look back and think about when I used to play wasn't very good. But boy did I try very hard and things like tanking I didn't know what tanking was and giving up or, or not, or being worried about losing it just it just was in my DNA to try very hard at everything. So I probably got as good as I did. And my dad got me a trial with with Alan Jones at Hazelwood when I was younger, so massive influence from the park. You imagine going from David Sims who's got this grassroots, just just inspirational magic about him. I mean, he sets up the first ever Short tennis World Championships in the hall in Neasden in North London. And then when we say, Wow, World Championships is amazing. And then when we turned up and it was all last year, so when I put it out there, no one else is going to come then we're going to call it the World Championships. And he just inspired the feeling of playing and competing loads of competing. And then my dad got me this he said, Man, I'm a dad so so well, maybe you're good let's and Jo Jury was doing very well at the time she was top British player up in the world. And then I go and have a you know, session with Alan Jones and Alan Jones then Alan Jones really picked it up and and Hazelwood picked it up for me. You know, I was around Jo Jury when she was playing the best players in the world and and being down the club and I will always be incredibly grateful for Alan Jones his passion Alan Jones his way ability to tell a story and okay I have a giggle sometimes and it's it could be the same story even now. About Chrissie Every and about Jo and about Martina and about are you like okay are we gonna move this on but the thing is, you can't you can't deny the guys passion and love for the sport but just for people trying hard and doing their best. So it was a great match. I didn't see Alan very much i i saw mostly as assistant I got a role in Carter but the club was the club was full of a buzz imagine, you know being around the club when when when she was just come back and she's played Steffi and she's played all these top players. I mean, it was great. And I've got a slightly funny story actually, because Jo would come back and she'd sell all her Fisher rackets for like 20 pounds with guts string in and nowadays you can't even get a string gut for 20 pounds right So I think I'm the bee's knees. So I've gone back to my park course in Neasden, and I'm playing this match. And my dad's watching me reading the paper. And I bounced one of the Fisher rackets on the ground out of frustration. And he looked up from his newspaper, and he put his paper down on the bench. And he walked onto the court and I was like, what you doing? And he came over and picked up listen to this picked up seven rackets that he had paid 140 pounds for, picked them up, put them under his arm and took them off the court. And I went was embarrassing, and I had to borrow the other guy's racket to finish the match. And I went home and I said to my dad, can I have my racket please? And he looked, he said, sorry, say again? And he said, Can I have my racket? And he said, uh, do you mean my rackets? The rackets that I paid 140 pounds for and I went oh, yeah, I guess Yeah, I guess the eyes is oh no, there's no guessing that there my rackets I bought them I've given them to you. And if you don't look after your equipment, I'll take them back here and you'll never see them again. I'll give them to someone that really needs them and we will really value them always tell that story because it's like that's also another impact if you can have all this nice stuff done well look after right look. So I think I'm a big guy for passion big guy for hard work and big guy for what's he doing? Oh, he cares too much he bounces a racket. No, no, no no no no no no no no no we don't do that. So yeah, so lots of fun times in Alan Alan Jones was imagined I mean everyone I hope everyone knows what Alan Jones is like he's an absolute workhorse. He's an absolute absolute monster and he was the biggest guy in the world and he said look, he used to stop Jo from training and say Jo look at Justin move, because I can move like he wanted Jo to move. But then, well look at the balance the low you know, low center of gravity. A little bit out of my control. Yeah, and Joe would be striking the ball so clearly and Miko just say we'll look Hold on a second you look at how Joe and I could never strike the ball down. I could never strike the ball. I was always I was fooled tennis is a running sport. I also as I touch the ball and run I never saw his his stop and, and strike the ball like so that's I feel that that's always been a always been something I've held on to and now I'm now I'm so big on striking. And I want guys to strike it better than I did.

Daniel Kiernan  22:23

Do you think that there's your stories are great and they're they're sending me my mind like into all sorts. But if I jump on to this one first. Do you think your lack of striking ability? We know players it sounds different? Doesn't it with certain players? Is that just a talent thing? Or is is that an hours of volume thing? Is that? That because you played on the wall? And maybe you didn't have? I'm guessing you didn't have the coaching at a young age? Is there a window if you miss that window of getting the right dexterity and the right feelings and understand that the feelings then it's then hard to then pick that up? You know what, what is that? Because what you're seeing, I guess in quite bluntly is you wanted a badly you tried your best, but you weren't good enough, which is very much. That is the real story. But a lot of people live this story is if you want it bad enough, you'll be able to do it. But if you're just not good enough, you're not good enough. So what what is that when you look back? Why were you not a ball striker?

Justin Sherring  23:36

I think now when I look back and I because I I know now I mean the game is the game is more than ever a game of moving and striking. But my God, the court isn't getting any smaller. So we've get we've got these guys now moving faster than ever, and covering the court better than ever. And I make a slight comparison to golf whereby they're actually thinking of changing the rules in golf or making, you know, making the ball that it doesn't travel as far you know, because guys are driving. Now they're almost I'm not saying they're almost driving par fives but they're getting you know, they're getting off par fives and then having a little a little pitching wedge and and now if we see our sport and the way I teach it now is very different to how I taught it 10, 15, 20 years ago, um, I striking wasn't, was never presented me it was ever presented to me as a really important aspect of the game. And I think I never remember exploring it which is which is kind of ironic, Dan, because a big part of my coaching and anyone that's ever had lessons with me they say, oh my god, does he talk about boxing all the time? Does he talk about fighting all the time because all they talk about is how you connect and how you punch because the other thing that I did a lot of it had a big influence on my life and a big learning of the physicality of the game was that I did a lot of kickboxing and Thai boxing as a kid and I even fought for money. I even had professional Thai boxing fights and and that was something I wanted to move away from because it was going to affect my coaching career, but I learned, I learned more from the art of striking from, from Thai boxing coaches and from punching coaches, because, you know, you're literally trying to stop someone in their tracks. And you learn about the functionality of your body and how their hips move and how their momentum drives. I learned more from that. And I transfer more about technical, biomechanical, striking than I've ever learned from a coaching course.

Daniel Kiernan  25:24

Give me a short workshop, a one two minute workshop on striking.

Justin Sherring  25:30

Absolutely, well, you know, it's the timing of that. It's the timing of the hip. It's the it's the loading of the back leg, which I know we talk about a lot. But it's the sitting down on your punches sitting down, you know, you get guys that come out of the amateurs, and they like jump around, and they spring around there, because they're trying to point score. And the big thing about going to the professionals is that you now we need to stop people, we can't go to five rounds all the time. So sitting on your punches, and being balanced. I think Jannik Sinner is a wonderful example right now getting behind the ball, as if he was already there. And I talk about this a lot, can you, if I feed the ball and close my eyes? Can you make me feel that you're already there, I don't want to see any last little bit last little bit of hustling, I want to see you there and sat down and loaded into his back leg and bang, and striking and exploding into contact. And leaving all the speed in your contact, leave all this, not just after. And that's of course, when we talk about things like rhythm and timing and momentum. But actually, the best thing I've ever done is I taught Joe Salisbury how to kickbox. And I and I used to get the pads out with Jack Draper as well. And I would just get them out and say guys, look, can we feel that? Can we feel that collision? That collision at concept because, you know, with all the best world in the world, unless you're going to be so good. So good. Running around the court and playing tag with a tennis ball isn't going to cut it anymore? No, you got to run right you got to get behind that ball. I mean, I'm even saying guys, how difficult is it to get Sinner off balance how difficult it we've got a new breed. And this is what I think I've been trying to work on but you need you need serious athletes to do this. You need serious, I think you need some serious coach thing as well that you need some serious, I'm not budging on this, I know that Alcaraz can jump off. He looks like he's in the air all the time. But look how many times he's off the air, he's in the air off two feet, he's off the air have to not just starfish tennis, not just lunging off on one side, these guys have balanced, they can feel the earth they can feel that connection with the ground. And then we've got to make sure that the relaxation which Louis talks about, of course, but it just has to has that sound. And the more I coach, the more the sound of a strike the high pitch. I say to a lot of guys that want to know, if you want to come and listen and come and watch a few lessons. And I say the best thing to do is get down the boxing gym. I was in a gym with Thai boxers that were world champions. And I would sit afterwards my lessons. And I would sit and listen to the strike and listen to the sound of contact. Different different. Go listen to the high pitch and the ping and the ping. And if you talk to a job that what I'll always say is the pop of the serve or the ping of contact and I'll ask him Did you feel and you've got no one I said that's the one. That's the one the one you can feel, and there's just firing and it just, and that's what I could never find because I was always moving too much. My body was moving it wanted to move. It wanted to play tag. I'm the guy if you want to play tag for a million dollars at 15. I'm your guy. I argued before even so quick and so fast. And but I'm not going to stay there and explode. And so yeah, I hope that sort of answers a little bit of a little bit why I didn't become good. I think I was quick enough. I think I was mobile enough. But I didn't hurt anybody. I didn't hurt anybody. Ironically enough, when I was told to sit, sit down and settle in my punching and my boxing. That's what I did, my fights never went the distance. I always stopped people it was and I didn't even try to then say, Wow, how do you get the power on? I say, I don't really know. But so I know that power. But I know that in tennis, I get too excited about the movement.

Daniel Kiernan  29:12

Complexity, isn't it? That is the complexity of our sport because it is a running sport as well. It's a running sport that we then need to bring the flow, the balance, the transference of where the strike and then the tactical element and then the mental fortitude and gladiatorial mindset of going one against one. Like there's there's so many elements from so many sports, which is which is what makes I think tennis so beautiful, but it's also wanting to extend it so difficult as well, that we just go back because it's I think it's an important point. You also talked about your dad with the time that you bounced your racket. And and I've got a couple of examples in my life of when my dad spoke to me in a certain way, and he was, he was a genius when I look back at it because it was never, it was never reactive. I never felt reactive, and I'm a parent of three. And one of the challenges as a parent is to not just react emotionally and maybe show a behavior that you shouldn't show, you know, shouting or whatever it might be. But he had a couple of big conversations with me that was so I can, I can not only hear them now, I can feel them now. You know, like, now, maybe this is now a rubbish parent. Or maybe that there's a lot of rubbish parents around. But it feels like that is more challenging. Now that our, our children and I want to ask you this as a coach, because not just our children, but the children that we're dealing with. They're so polluted with so many things now, from Tik Tok to Snapchat to Love Island, whatever it is, there's so much out there. Do you think it is more challenging now to have those impactful moments? Or and you can be brutal on this, Is that a cop out? That, I guess just as I'm speaking, I'm having kind of a reflection, Is it that maybe us as parents are more distracted? And less clear on maybe our philosophies in our messages? Because we're distracted with the world as well. You know, but either way, I guess what I'm saying is, is this distraction getting in the way and preventing us from having those moments? And I guess my last option is, is it that actually we don't realize yet the impact of certain conversations, because our kids are kids, and they won't, they won't realize it until they're adults.

Justin Sherring  31:55

Yeah, and you make a good point there. Because you've got a crew, and I've got a crew, I've got four kids. And I've got, you know, three girls and a nearly 15 year old boy right now. And it's really, it's really interesting, because I have, it's tougher, I find it tougher to deal with my son. Because I don't want to be I don't want to be that reactive. Idiot, basically, that doesn't use the skills that we have as certainly as a coach. And I find myself getting frustrated with him sometimes because, you know, he is doing things which I, I know, I know, he should be doing because I've read all the literature about 14, 15 year old boys. I've been on call with so many 14, 15 year old boys. I've been on quite a mat if you like, a lot of people have said to me, like, you know, I, I chat openly now with Jack, Jack Draper and I, we spent, you know, five to sort of 16 and, and I love the guy I love the guy like he's like, I love the guy like he's my kid. And and I know that I know that it's mutual that we have a lot of tennis love between us. And we spend a lot of time growing up with each other. And, and but it's it's weird. When it's not your child, it's so much easier. It's so much easier. When it's Jack and Joe. I know that tough love is real, tough love is tough love is real. And and I think that one of the things that I think I can do. And I can look at it, not sort of from an ego perspective, but just for literally from a reflexive perspective is I'm able to be as honest. Because I represent such a brutal world. I represent the ATP Tour. Are you kidding me? Hold on a second, if you're going to come to me and you say you want to be a player, if you're going to come to me with that talent, with that ability, with that monster inside you, mate, we cannot we cannot fail. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart, we will not fail. We will not fail, not on my watch. Not on my watch. And I'm almost struck by when you go into the states when you go across the border. There's the sign now with all the names. It's a sign made up saying Not on my watch. And the writing is made up of all the people that that perished in 911. And so that's the message from Homeland Security. Not on my watch. Is anybody coming into this country? And that's a little bit how I feel. Oh, you want to have a session with me? Now you better be ready. I'm coach, educator and mentor to me. He always says are you gonna have sessions with Justin you better be ready. You better be ready for the emotional roller coaster. And sometimes that's good and I think I'm getting better. And I'm jumping a little bit but one of the reasons I'm traveling more with Joe this year is that he feels and he's quite open to tell me you have an impact on my mentality you have an impact on the way I perform. You have an impact, you know, you make a difference. And he did something to me you did something to me Dan which I'm going to try and tell you now without without getting emotional. But just Joe is Joe is a different guy to Jack Jack Jack is like a monster and a very explicit animal when he was a youngster, I mean, the guy is brutal, the guy's a killer. And never been on court with a guy that wanted it so badly and and you feel you feel, may you better not get this, you better not get this wrong Justin, I always felt a little bit of great pressure. I'm privileged to be on call with Jack and I'm so lucky. And Joe was always the opposite. Joe was like, This guy's great. He just needs to know how great he is. It is my job with Joe was to draw him out. My job with Jack was to trim the edges. And don't get, and sometimes it used to tip it over a little bit and wherever. But now we come together and we hug like, and you know, it's not I'm with Jack sometimes he openly says if it wasn't for this guy, there's no way there's no way I'm doing what I'm doing. And, and I say to Jack but if it wasn't for you, I'm nowhere near the coach that that I would be either. But Joe after he won the US Open last year and he was having not the best year. Let's just say that. You know, he's obviously sitting at the airport about to come home. And he's written me a message which, which I still I can't believe that Joe Salisbury wrote, he basically said, you never know you don't know how hard I had to fight for that victory today, I just want to let you know that I had to fight as hard as I've ever fought my life. And he said and that's from you. That's from you just and and I wouldn't have been I wouldn't have been to do without you. And I'm like, and what was emotional Dan was because it wasn't my ego. It was more, it was more, I'm destined to be here to help you. I'm destined to help you become the person that not that I know that I couldn't become that I'm here for you. And the fact that you can feel that I'm here for you. I mean, come on. I had a moment like that. And, and I'm with 200 kids and parents last year and Jack Draper's turned up. Because as part of my role in Surrey is that, I get to invent tournaments. So I can have the Jack Draper Invitational Tournament, And, guess who's gonna be here, Jack Draper's gonna be here. So he turns up at the end of the tournament, he talks all the parents and the kids. And then out of nowhere, he just says, Listen, guys, while you're all here, I just want to say, this guy right here, this guy here. And I'm like, looking at what like me, and he goes this guy. If you want to be good, you need to find a guy like this guy. Okay, if you're gonna have a chance, you need to find this guy, without this guy, I'm no one. And I'm like, and again, you just have these moments, man. And, and you know what you need them along the way. Because if you don't get them, it's a pretty brutal world of just giving, giving, giving. And not just getting back a buzz, but getting feedback, getting feedback, a 20, you know, 22 year old guy that can now express himself and it is at the top of the game is able to look back and share. Imagine what it does to him that he can share with a group of people in front of me how much I meant. And imagine what I then go on to do imagine what that ripple does for me, when I go on court with the next guy I'm working with. Imagine how that makes me feel. Imagine the fact that I can share this with you. And I can share it with people that are listening. I can share it with coaches that are wondering if that's ever going to happen to them or they're ever going to feel that and I'm telling you stick it out. Do your work. Stay tough, stay true to yourself, be authentic, and people will feel you to their roots to their roots they will feel you. So, you know, that just encompasses a little bit of what I'm trying to put out there. But it's tough with my own son, because I don't want him to be my tennis player.

Daniel Kiernan  38:33

Does he play?

Justin Sherring  38:34

No, he doesn't play plays. He plays and I'm so happy that I'm so happy that my none of my kids play tennis because I don't like me sometimes when I coach. It's like, you know Bill Bixby from the Hulk. You know, don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. You know, don't make me coach you. You're not going to like me all the time. You're not gonna like me. But I think you gotta feel me. And I think nowadays an answer to your question. It takes such a big shift to move people away from Tic Tok from Love Island from fantasy, this fantasy that from playing on their Playstations and what I'm about is making shifts in people. I think I can make people shift and I can move them and they can move and they can move teams can make shit happen. And that's what I value myself on doing. And I don't know where it comes from. But I know that there's been some cool influences David Sims, Alan Jones You guys rock it Louis Cayer without Louie Cayer I am no one without Louie Cayer I am no one without Louis I never met anyone that made me feel so like I knew nothing in my life. Like in sport, right? Oh, come on and and you need listen. If you don't have anybody in your life that's going to make you feel that you know nothing. Look harder. Go harder. Search for someone that knows more than you don't think for once.

Daniel Kiernan  39:54

There's a couple there's a couple of things jumping out for me and and personally Thank you for sharing because that was that's powerful the stuff that you're sharing there, and I sat there with goosebumps there. So, it, thank you so much for sharing that. If the second one is, we're not in a world, we are in a world of instant gratification. But what we do as tennis coaches is the opposite. You know, and it's, it's those messages that you're getting 15, 16 17,20 years later, you know, so so it can't, it can't be that we're in it for ego and any young coaches listening, lose that, you know, like you say so well, you know, staying true to yourself, you know, and, and putting it in Dan doubt, and the rewards will come, you know, stop trying to map this whole thing out and play a certain game to get to somewhere, you know, Do do do do the right things. And instant gratification is not is not the thing that happens in our sport. Now that the second thing that jumps out is I can feel your energy strong, really strong. How have you navigated being a tennis coach who, again, a lot of tennis coaching jobs, could be I remember doing 55, 60 hours a week on court, you know, different player every hour? You know, it's a challenge, right? And being able to do that. So I guess a two prong question. One, in your coaching, how many hours have you done over the years on court per week? And how have you been able to bring that unique energy to that one off session that that player is having with you every single time without crashing and burning?

Justin Sherring  41:48

Yeah, I think that's a really good question. Well, first of all, let me let me say where I'm at right now, I'm self employed, I don't work for anybody. I work for my values. I work for my philosophies. And I am horrific. I've done a couple of jobs where I've been employed, I don't last very long. And not because I don't know how to conform. Because, because you can take me home to you know, take me home to meet mom and I'm and I'll be as nice, I'll be the nice guy. But I just feel like I'm trapped. I feel like I can't be myself. I can't be the guy that wakes up in the morning and says, I've got all this energy. I don't know how I'm going to unleash it. But I need to unleash it somewhere. So I think that one, I've got this one, I've got this motivation, and discipline. I mean, how many jobs are there, I got a job as the County Performance Manager. And they came from nowhere, I got the job because I was the most enthusiastic. And I did my homework, I found out everything. And if you want to get a job in tennis, you better understand the politics, you better understand how the counties work, you better understand how committees work, you better make sure you know who runs the committees and not because you're going to do any lobbying, but because you need to give them respect. British Tennis is a funny little animal. But if you want to be your own, if you want to be your own person, it's difficult to get along. Be your own person. And piss too many people. I see too many people trying to be their own man trying to be their own coach. And they just make enemies left, right and center. They just do it the wrong way. Make friends. Do it the right do it the right way. Be true to yourself and carve out look. If it's ladies mornings that you've got a run, run the best goddamn ladies mornings. If it's men's match practice that you've got to run on Sunday night. Make it the best. Make sure everybody knows that you're the best. Make sure everyone knows about your reputation. All you need is a couple of members and you're a lazy guy. You're gonna lose your job anyway. The tennis Head, head tennis coach not going to be too interested in keeping someone in that doesn't keep members happy. I've been head pro at St George's Hill, and I hated it. I absolutely hated these environments where you walk around like zombies. Everyone wears the same kit. You are kidding me? I hate that about tennis. I love St. George's Hill has got a beautiful does a beautiful Sunday lunch. If you ever want to go for Sunday lunch, beautiful. But the atmosphere, the environment, the claustrophobic nature. And I know I'm talking to a guy that runs his own academy in another country. So if anyone understands what I'm talking about, look at this. You're your own man. So if you want our players to be their own man, go be your own. Don't be run. But I also followed a lot of people. When I'd finished, a lot of sessions, I'd go find out what time Colin Beecher was on court. I go sit and listen to Colin Beecher. He didn't even know I was listening to him coach. These guys put hard yards into British tennis. I'd go and listen to Nick Wheel for hours. I sit behind the court when Nick was coaching and pretend to be talking to someone I'm listening to Wheeler say one more ball one more ball cross. That's it. Yeah, before we cross that year, more and more bought one more ball and listen to Beech talk and get the best out of Mark Hilton or get the best out of someone who's working with trying to find your why. No, come on. That's good. That's good that you know it's nice and and really listening to real coaching. I've got an issue with coach education Dan, I think it's turned into a business, I think he's turned to this crazy business. And if you're not careful, you get lost in the business of attending coaching sessions. And I've got a couple of guys that I mentor, I say, Please do your license, please, by all means, but then go sit behind the court. Make sure no one no thing. That's real coaching. That's real coaching, go into a boxing gym with World Champions and listen to the real honest chats that go on. Go and listen to Neil Warnock, coach, a football team at halftime. Don't listen to other sports. Go listen to how people connect with human beings doesn't matter. Or if you can't connect, you're screwed. And people will sus you out. People will suss you out. Joe still looks to me like, like if I say yeah, it was quite good said we'll look at me again and go. It will why wasn't in very good. I'm gonna go up because you didn't ask it to be very good. Just said wasn't good. And I go, yeah, it was okay. It's in the ballpark. He goes, I want to be in the ballpark. Okay, so now we're talking. So you, you got that vibe from me that it was quite good. I just needed to know from you that you wanted to go to very good. And if you want to do, I'm your guy, let's go. So part of being completely outrageously obsessed with, not with perfection but with something that you will is close to your heart is controlling the goddamn controllables if you're not working your butt off, are you kidding me? Right? We're going to stop right there. You know, if you haven't asked me a question, some of the discussions that we've had, I've had with Jack and Joe over the years are just finding out who you are, mate, who you are, who you are, and how far can we push this thing? How far can we push this? So I want to push my coaching. I'm not done yet. I'm 54 this year, I feel as fit and as strong and as healthy. And that's the other thing I would say to coaches too. If you don't stay fit, you're dead. If you don't stay, if you don't look after yourself, you kind of you're kind of dead, you can lose your energy. And if you don't go and go in the gym at the end of a hard day on the tour, you know, it's interesting, I can be in the gym or you know, Vienna or something 11 o'clock at night after a long day. Oh, oh, I see some big coaches in there. Oh, Darren Cahill. Oh, hello, Darren. How you doing buddy? He goes you're doing pretty good as well. So it's like, you know is that all in mentality of our sport is brutal. So we need to that need to be a little bit of brutality about us Dan there really does.

Daniel Kiernan  47:20

Justin, you're like, for me, you're you're you're you're nailing so many of the values that I have myself that I love to see in in a coach and it's absolutely no surprise to me, that you've it's not just about tennis, right? It's you've, you've gone and you've talked about Jack Draper, Joe Salisbury, Jack Draper top 20 We he's gonna be a top 10 player in the world, you know, he's a superstar in the making Joe Salisbury, multiple Grand Slam champion world number one, you know, gone along this journey, and you have been a constant in those journeys. And speaking to you, it's no surprise and, and to be a constant in that journey. That's not because you're a serve doctor. You know, the serve doctors don't last in people's journeys for 15, 20 years. You know, like real shit does, you know and real relationships and real connections. And that's coming through loud and clear. And one of the things I did want to ask you, but I kind of feel like you've answered it is in coaching, people do get pigeonholed. And my pet Oh, like it makes me cringe. Pet peeve is I'm a I'm a performance coach. You know, I don't do that I'm a performance coach. You know, get off you get off your absolute high horse but the pigeon the pigeon holing is that someone, coaches someone under 10 or someone then coaches somewhere between these ages or someone coaches boys and they don't coach girls, or someone coaches girls and and it can be quite easy to have that, or singles and doubles. You know, whatever it might be. So how have you managed that? Because there must have been some challenges along the way. As as you're going through that from I guess if we go back to you know, Joe, I guess you were a relatively young coach when you started with Joe. So how have you managed those shifts because there is shifts and they need different things at different times. I remember Jack saying actually, when I spoke to him on the pod, he said he remembers one day just rocking up and I'm pretty sure you would have been the coach at the time and you'd set the mini tennis court out and and you just and you say okay, get ready. We're going best of five sets in play mini mini tennis, you know, like these, these things that there's such amazing ways of bringing through the competitive skills. But how have you navigated that full spectrum as a journey.

Justin Sherring  50:01

Yeah, that's a fabulous, fabulous question. I'm really glad because I'm still navigating it. I'm still navigating it but what I truly believe is that without the character of Sinner, Alcaraz Nadal Federer Djokovic, Jack Draper, Joe Salisbury if you don't develop the character, so I know that if I go off to the character, and that's I know exactly what you're talking about best of five sets, and I would always beat Jack at that because that just to just to exhibit the brutality of the sport, and the playing through pain, and if you look at Jack over the last couple of years, I mean, he's very lucky as well, because I mean, look, I'm incredibly lucky that I come across this guy. Well, you know what, whenever I coach anybody now I say if you have a little bit of Jack, then you really are a gift from God, you really are a gift because the guy's so talented in that in that hunger, focus, wants it and sometimes wanting it too bad way. So he deserves to understand the true essence of our sport. It is ridiculously brutal. And when I do coach and I say give me one word, and they go fun, enjoyment, participation, relaxation, recreation, I say wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. brutal, brutal, brutal, brutal, brutal, 10 times one is brutal, brutal, brutal, brutal, brutal. It's brutal. So it is brutal to start with, and then just try and be a nice guy as you do that. So best of five, it sounds lovely sponge ball, the slowest sponge ball, by the way, slowest. So you can't put it away, because I knew I was stronger than him but moving around the court and he was cramping. I've seen him cramp at 14 makes them or about seeing him cramp at this age. Now. Same thing with Joe, everything was brutal. And the same thing with a guy called Chris Eaton. I coach for 10, 12 years. He was really my plaything. I know sounds a bit odd, but it was my, I'd get heartrate monitor on him and wait until he was beeping in the dangerous zone. And then we play best of five sets medicine ball in the service boxes with a five kilo medicine ball. I remember calling up our trainer and go I'm a bit worried about Chris. He's on the floor and he can't move and they go, Oh, that's the alright. And this was a guy. He's talking to him and he goes, Oh, that's alright. Sounds that sounds like you've had a good session. I went. Is that okay, Joe, Is that right? Have a good sense. He goes yeah, that's as you've been sick. Yeah. And I go no, he goes, I'll release. All right, then he's, he's fine. Yeah, he's just put his head between his legs you'll be okay. So the idea. You know, you're around Thai boxing a lot. You see the brutality and the physicality. I've been a massive martial arts fan since I was a kid. You now show me tennis. So I understand the character. I understand what it takes to be a Nigel Benn or, or a Michael Watson or a Chris Eubank and I used to go and watch these guys train. And then I used to take it to the tennis court. And I said, Take this character, but the tennis side of it. So hanging out with Louis Cayer for the last six years, I've had to put myself into positions. And anyone that knows Louie, if you don't know something, he'll make sure that you know that you don't know it. And if you don't know it, he'll actually make sure that you perform it in front of other people, so that they know you don't know it either. And I tell you what I have, I have sat with Louis and about a half a lager and he's had a little glass of wine. And I've gone thank you, thank you. Because I've gone home with my tail between my legs so many times, thinking I know nothing about this sport, nothing about momentum, nothing about how to stay sideways on more. So all these biomechanical things that I met, I've made sense of the in terms of doubles. And in terms of park your ego at the door, park it, shut up, you know nothing. And I've just go on court. When I used to work with Johanna, I worked with Johanna for a year and, and this is a wonderful thing. Wonderful thing. I worked with her when she was really struggling for confidence and not sure whether she was going. And her parents met me at the NTC. And they said, look, we've seen how you coach, we like it. You know, she needs someone like you with your. And I was like, what? She's like, 250 I can't do that. They're like, No, no, no, no, no, you can you can we like the way you care about your players and the way that you dedicate and you're into, and you're committed. I'm like, hold on, guys. I can't teach this. So I've learned both ways. I've learned I've learned from Johanna, And she sent me a lovely message when she retired. Thank you so much for being part of my career, you know, in a dad said to me semi finals of Wimbledon in front of all her team. If it wasn't for this guy, we wouldn't be here today, she would have quit tennis. So I know it's not about tennis. I know that much. So I think if you're confident to know that you can care for people, you can ask them how the hell they are, then you can ask them what they think. And I will all say I will say what do you want to do today? And if anyone says Oh, you have no idea, as I say, I've 100 ideas. But I want to know what you think I want to know where you're at, I can meet you where you are today. So as long as you've got those personal skills, and you're really care about the human being, that's what gives me confidence to know I can learn the other stuff. I can learn the odd drill, I can learn how to do return as partner, I can learn how to do service partner, I can learn how to serve quite well at 117 miles an hour from the service. I can do these things. And that's why it's important to keep my short so I can do those things, but what I, what? What a lot of coaches I've seen can't do is what I do. Yep. So how do you guys that had been on the tour? Well, you know, maybe you take certain things for granted. So maybe you can have some empathy and have some. Maybe you can drive your players have that break, and then maybe you can make them feel a million dollars. Maybe you can send them a special message, and just say, just want to say, You were absolutely outrageously amazing today. And they go Yeah, hey, I said no, do you really? You really were. And something I do with Joe because he was introvert. When he won a big match would go into the field outside and we'd shout and scream and celebrate like it just won Wimbledon. Go do it. If you don't fire that guy up, they stay inside. You know, and, and like with Jack the other day he's training here, he plays De Minaur and jumps on the Wattbike trains like an absolute monster. I come off as I see him I give him a big sweaty hug you rubs his face against my face, like two animals meeting and just sharing their scent. And I say to him, Look, are you earning the right to be a monster looking? are you earning the right? And later on? He messaged me 915 He goes, I like what you said today. I like that. Earn the right. I like that a lot. And that's it. I share some of these little gifts because because if you want to be I think if you want to be a good coach, and don't forget Louis' best Louis' best skills that we call his best skills are making people believe they can do something not 100% not a sales partner skills, they you can learn from book, you cannot be around Louis Cayer or that feeling that you're going to be number one in the world not number five, number 10. Number one, you will win grand slams around that guy

Daniel Kiernan  56:45

For me, Justin, you absolutely hit the nail on the head. You know, and I think I think people coaches need to get that into their veins, you know, and it's, I've seen it a million million times that people think coaching is about knowledge. You know, and it's and actually the way that I've always compartmentalize that is literally obviously talks about the performer and the tennis player. And I think that actually goes across all industries, the tennis player, maybe is the more expertise piece. But if you have the performance skills, you have the ability to be good with people connect with people make them believe in themselves. You can you can excel in anything in this world, anything because the expertise bit, you can learn if I need to learn Mandarin in a month to save my family's life. I'll find a way. It's nothing, you know, it's not gonna be easy. But if it's important enough, I'll find a way you know, but I'm completely with you. And it's and that's why I actually think great tennis coaches like yourself, could could be great in any industry. You know, you could go into a business and absolutely help the business by by if you work out then the expertise within that business. I don't know what you think on that you look like you disagree with me. So I'm gonna give you the floor.

Justin Sherring  58:06

You know, the best coach that I've ever seen on court, the best coach and my hero. My coaching hero is Nick Bollettieri.. Yeah, okay. I can see that. Yeah, right. Okay, so Nick Bollettieri is my hero. And I went on holiday once. It's a real funny story, my wife said no tennis, no tennis. I booked this amazing little place in Florida. I'm like, there's, you know, there's a lot of tennis courts in Florida, you know, no, this place is sleepy as hell white beach, so a little place called Bradenton. And I'm like, no way really. And I thought she was joking. She said, No, no, I found this white, white sand beach super little place. Nowhere near St. Petersburg on that side. There's no, I'm like, that's amazing. And I couldn't believe that she said Bradenton. And so we arrived on the Gold Coast in Bradenton. And I said, Look, I'm going to take the car I'm going to explore a little bit and the first thing I did was I went about three and a half miles around the ramp down the road to the Bollettieri Tennis Academy,  My wife had no idea that it was that close. I didn't know Nick Bolletteri, but I was destined. I was damned to get in there. So I went to the gate and said, I'm from England. Can I come in? And no, no, you can come in two days. Three. I'm free. You're not You're not playing today. I'm like, no, no, no. He said, I'm sorry. Nick is busy. And I'm, I'm like, Okay, do you know Red? I'm like, read. A guy's like Red said, yeah, I know Red. I didn't know Red. Red was Red was the crazy coach used to work. But like, guys, all players back in the day, did a bit with maybe with Heather Watson. I just named a coach that I knew and never met him before. And I knew I later found out why he was called Red. And he said, Oh, you know, Red. Okay, so the guy that guy gets a little golf buggy and meets me at the gate. And I think Red is a little scary guy. They don't want to upset Red. So because I know Red. I'm good. I'm in so I get on this golf buggy and I'm thinking And, you know, basically shit I'm in this place now this is amazing. I'm looking around Wow it's a joke. So I go to Red's court and I turn up and go parent this guy knows you Red. I'm like, Red. Yeah, man. He goes, I don't know this guy and I'm like Red, Red, Red, Red, Red,  Heather Watson. He's like, Yeah, I know, those guys I'm like, him member we met member we met in England. And he goes, I don't remember that how he goes up. I apologize. Apologize. I don't remember that. So I said, no, no. Okay, I get it. You meet a lot of people. A great coach that you you may love people. So I said, Do you mind if I watch a little bit goes, I'm just finishing up here, but I can drop you off with Nick when I'm done anyway, I'm like, No way. So I watch a little bit of his hard drills. He's got this big red beard, by the way. It's why it's called red. And he drops me off at Nick's courts. And so I've just killed two birds with one stone with a little bit of bluff and a little bit of what you what you call, get it done. You know, there's a there's a will there's a way. Anyway, Nick is the master of saying hey, England, how are you? Good to see you. Oh my god. It's good to see how boy how's that Maggie Thatcher. I'm like, pretty good Nick, Maggie Thatcher's pretty good. She hasn't been in power for a while, but she's pretty good. Come on, come on. Come on. Let me let me show you what I'm doing here. Let me show what's going on. You know. So so he coached the person. He coached the performer. He said look at this girls's backhand. I never seen the backhand as good. Have you seen the backhand is good. Suddenly, I'm part of the Nick Bollettieri show. Seven is go to back end right back. atcha right back catching a backhand return. And I'm in heaven. I'm realizing how this guy connects how he connects with these guys. And I basic I leave there Nick goes on. No, no, hold on a second. Nick goes, you gotta you got a few minutes at the end. He takes me round IMG. He takes me into his office, we sit down. It tells me that story which he's told 100 people. My Monica Selles This is my Boris is on the wall. This is my Andre, this is my guy. And he's in the office talking me through all his players. I mean, blowing his own trumpet like you wouldn't believe. But I'm the happiest guy and he then in true commercial style. He then drives me off for the shop so I can buy my apparel before I leave before I leave. Check me out next time you're in town. I'm like, Nick, you just made my day. And I go back. My wife says to me, so you find anything interesting as much. Right? It's pretty sleepy place.

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:26

There's a story here, because he was my 100th guest on the show on the pod. And wow, God rest his soul. You know, you actually did actually pass away, maybe six months after I spoke to him, actually. So I had the honor of speaking to him pretty much at the end. And he still had that complete infectious enthusiasm. He didn't answer one of my questions. You know, like, I was like, I did a lot of research before that. And I was I was okay, so he's got three or four stories that he tells in any podcast in any coach. So I'm gonna I'm keeping him away from those. So I was asking him about Nadal's Academy, different things, completely ignored the questions, and just read his stories. I then managed to get him to talk a bit about Kyrgios. So it was a bit of a relevant thing. So that was kind of new content. And then all of a sudden, he turns to me, and this was this was complete classic. And it's it links into your story, Justin. He had his agent there. And he was looking quite frail. But he was he said he was gonna give me 20 minutes. And it's one of the one of my more successful stories of all time, I got 36 minutes from Nick Bollettieri when he said he was going to get 20. And it was just complete genius. And I feel very lucky to have had that time with him as well. I could talk to you for hours, and we're going to have to do it in Palm Springs in a couple of weeks, you know, but the one name I've actually written down as we're talking and as you're telling those stories, and is Roger Draper because at that time of you coaching Jack, not only did you have an extremely talented young player, which brings a weight within itself, you know, you have to be a big character. You said earlier in the chat, don't mess it up. Just don't mess it up. But, but so you've got that but you've also got the son of the the big boss man of the Hall of British tennis at the time, you know, who, which, which again, I guess in lots of ways certainly externally adds a little extra weight to it as well. You know, this guy could have Jack training anywhere with anyone in the world, you know, and they they had him with you, which is a big compliment. How was that? Was there any challenges navigating that particular relationship at that time? Yeah, tell us about that period as well.

Justin Sherring  1:05:13

Yeah, I'm so I'm so glad because a lot of people it's funny how, you know, Rogers got, you know, he's got a certain reputation in terms of business. But But listen, what's interesting is that don't, you know, don't anyone underestimate just how much Roger wants jack to succeed and wanted him to succeed. And I met, he invited me he invited me to the NTC when it first joined as CEO. And he sat down and he pretty much told me I knew him before from the southeast, work in the southeast. He pretty much told me because you know, and I've told Jack that when he wins, Wimbledon, I will finally do my, I will finally do my Roger Draper impersonation, which, which at the time, was everybody said was, it's on the money, so I won't do my Roger Draper impersonation. Now, although I'm inclined to when I talk about people, like I just did with my Nick and stuff, and because it just feels it just feels like I'm more. But basically, Roger just said, you know, hi, Justin, how are you? Yeah, you're going to be so you're going to be coaching my boys. And we're gonna have to, you know, you got to see them, like three times a week. And then we'll do like five squads, and then you'll come to tournaments. And yeah, great to see you today. Um, have a good day. And I went, alright, so into, you know, Billy, Big Boss way. He kind of told me that I'll be teaching Jack. And I'm really glad that he did. And then you know what, honestly, from then on, Roger was if Jack was happy, Rog was happy. Roger never ever did anything against what I said. I cannot believe that because Rog, like all big guys, they have egos. They have ways of doing things. And a lot of people might say this, but But you know, we never we never had a cross word. He helped me so much. He facilitated things. Davis Cup or Wimbledon. Yeah, come in behind the scenes with Jack hang out with Jack Wembley for the Carl Froch you know George Groves fight. Yeah, we've got to take as a Wembley take Jack. It was always always supporting the relationship, but the only time I got in trouble with Rog sometimes was if Raj wanted to hit with Jack while I was working on a little bit of technique a little bit, timing and rhythm, and Rog would be down the other end smashing the living daylights out of a green ball and I'd be like Rog any chance we could take it down a bit because Jack's late anyway on the forehand, we don't want them to be any later you know, and you know, he's about as late as British Rail right now let's try and get earlier so you know sometimes I'd say because Nick would come in and the competitive between the boys and I say the boys because it was always Nick, Jack and Rog. But you know what good is gold you know, Dad and his you know, son have different relationship. But Roger, always amazes me. And you know what bottom line is when, when Jack's playing Novak at Wimbledon, I go and have a little beer with Rog. And we both sit down we both almost hold hands and sort of our eyes a little bit glaze over, and we say almost like not stupid things that we did it but how cool is this, Rog? How cool is this? But I'd say the person that I was on court with every day was Nikki, me and Nikki and Jack. Me and Nicky, Ben and Jack me and Nikki. Nikki picking up balls Nikki asking questions. me asking Nikki questions, us bouncing off each other. Me saying to Nikki tell him to stop being an idiot. Jack you're being an idiot. You're being an idiot or I both think you're being an idiot Ben tell them stop being a goofball. Then tell him how good he is go to so working as a team working as a team. Did I feel the pressure of that? Yeah, I did. I felt a little bit from guys at the LTA Oh, you're okay because you know stuff online stuff being trolled. Oh, Jack Draper's only won nationals, because he's dads CEO, was funny because Jackson born at the end of the year, and even when they changed the rules in British tennis, where they changed the birth date to make it so that not everybody born in the first half of the year was going to be good and get all the funding. But I'd say well, that doesn't sit that seems silly, because Outliers was the book at the time. And there's a lot of stuff saying, but anyone who gets funding does well, the guys who get more funding are born in the first half of the year, first four months. So how can we do that? Let's make sure we've got two times in the year where we make selections. So of course, because Jack's are December birthday, or we only did that because Roger was CEO the time that was even being said within an hour. Yeah, I would like I would like push that off a little bit. But I'd also be a little bit antagonistic and a little bit occasionally. You know, I'd sort of say, well, I hear what you said over there. You want to come and say it's my face because I see this kid working his butt off. So don't say anything about that. You can't put in a little bit of all Roger, CEO magic. This guy still has to win matches.

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:48

You can't be spoon fed to be an international top top tennis player.

Justin Sherring  1:09:53

You can't do it now. Did the drive that came from Roger did the drive that came from Nikki. Nikki was all was obsessed with Jack doing things right with me. She wanted the technique to be right with me. She wanted the technique to be right. She was great. She's fuss he should work, she'd care. She would I'd take him away on trips and she said, I care about his English. Can you make sure he learns three new words today? And you know, and imagine the sort of 1314 Jack's was a little bit different to my word. So but I'd say no, we got to keep it clean my hair. You know, we went to John McEnroe's Academy because he had to do some Aegon filming what a great laugh. We had such a bit of fun and a funny story with Jack we had such a sometimes I felt like a big brother. Sometimes I felt like a tennis dad because it was tough. Roger was always busy with the LTA and a lot of pressure on Jack Don't worry about me about the pressure on Jack. He's the CEO's boys the trophy kid he's the kid that everyone's saying come on then. What you got draped or what you got. What you got all the funding go to court. I'm born in Surrey, blah, blah, blah. So when I was in a second Roger is pretty rough. He's from Wigan mate is from where you from rugby league background. We're not messing around. Nikki is down to earth lovely people, lovely parents, grandparents, amazing tennis, playing background, all tennis. And there's me brought into the family how privileged, a wonderful, I travel with a guy around and and I look after him and sometimes he needs a hug. He's a very tactile chap, he needs a hug and he's that you did great out there. And we'd also do this thing where I pretend to hit him but because like I was trained, I was trying to fight he wasn't trying to fight. So I pretend to kick him and he tried to do the same to me, but it actually hit me. Sometime we're about had these white tracksuit bottoms on. They're beautiful. And we're about to go into John McEnroe's Academy for filming. So he comes out of the room, and he waits and he does like a spinning kick, and lands his dirty shoes. And I'm like, what? Why have you just done? What? Why are you being a goofball? And he's like wipe it off? I want and it's still a mark on it. So I flicked my metal, I flipped my finger just gently, very gently. And it absolutely winds him and you can arrest me if you'd like. But it was a bit of fun. And he's like, ah, and the guys always talk about my hard fingers because they're really hard from press ups. And anyway, flicking my finger and he's like all we don't think anything of it. And you'll be doing all the filming and stuff and he keeps complaining. Like it keeps complaining about stomach. And they're all worried it McEnroe's the worry the physical guy goes, you know, maybe it's got appendicitis. What if he's got appendicitis I'm like, oh my god, what is it? Where's it he goes all around here or around here. So anyway, but the next day doing filming next day filming and then I go Jack you're not really hitting the balls, he goes I can't hit a ball. It's really painful. And then I want to present to me exactly where it is. He lifts his shirt up. And there's a little tiny mark on his solar plexus, where I flicked him gently, and he go and I go, is that right? I flew to yesterday. And he goes, Oh my God. Yeah. So we ruined like a whole day's filming. There was a whole camera couldn't operate the whole expensive because they thought appendicitis and all it was is we're just play fighting. It was big brother tennis coach, tennis dad like a mate. You need to get to the bed now. We're in India. He's just made 75 in the world. ITF 15 years old. Six months quicker than Andy. I'm like, I'm not done yet. I want to win this. No, no, no, we're at the end of three week trip in India. I can't handle it anymore. I've told him he can't bite his nails. I like it. Dad. Do not bite your nose. Oh, boo. I said I don't mind picking up your balls on the tennis court. But I'm not picking up your puke or anything else. After you get ill and India. We're doing things properly. You know, sanitizer sanitizer everywhere. Anyway. I'm like, mate, we're gonna win this match them. I can't I can't move. I said, we're gonna go and get a massage. We goes with Indian massage. That guy has an apron on. He's like a butcher's apron in this poll is that I don't like there's just a lightness to say just get a massage. We'll be fine. He's got his lying in his pants on his massage. And he's getting the massage and it's deep. And I'm like, That's it keep going. It'll be fine. It'll be better. So it'll be a play tomorrow. And Jack's pretty much going. Ah, I can't I can't. And I went like take it down a bit. The guy thought I meant pushed a bit deeper. He's now wriggling and pain and I look over and go that's for flicking me in the nuts earlier. That's because that's the making my white trousers dirty. They go okay, okay. So it was very much there's sort of this playful if you like this rough and tumble that Martin Weston talks about, you know, young players, young guys, they need the rough and tumble of growing up. So it wasn't just a little Surrey boy was to a dad can afford everything gets dropped off in the porch. This was It was rough and ready and I tried to make it sawdust. I tried to make it joke. I was arguing with his dad in the gym, sawdust on the floor. We're here to fight. We're to get tough. And I will say to people look, if you want to turn up and watch Jack fine, but you got to play in the 21 out there hand, a bet you can't beat him. And we would play 20 ones out there and first five forecourt and if he lost, he'd have to run over the fence, run across the field, jump up touch the crossbar run back and it's and I'd say would you want to do now he goes, I want to play again. And I'd look at his grandparents and they'd say He knows is not going to win and Jack would go, I'm gonna win, you're gonna win, I'm gonna win, let's go and he would never win. He wouldn't his interior guy would finish the lesson and say, I want to play and I got another lesson of another lesson, I want to play again and he'd be crying at his mom, I want to play again. So the best thing you can do as a coach as well is learn to play well enough that you can play with guys that you can teach them lessons. Everything is character building your hand a concept character. Come on, Jo, you can do this. You can be the person you want to be. You can do this, your tennis is fine. And then later on great coaches help. But I just want to say look, I work in a team with Joe right now I work with Dave O'Hare, the loveliest gentlest, and most amazing guy couldn't do enough for his players. I work with Louie Cayer, I work with Danny, Danny Stella chase the most. Yarwood Daniyar, with the most amazing physio, we have such an amazing team, that we all bring something and at that I think at the highest level, I bring, I bring what I bring. And sometimes Louis and Dave said to me, just he needs adjusting talk, you need to talk to job, he needs to just talk. And I'll say to Dave, Dave, he needs a coffee, go grab a coffee. And I'll we'll both say to Louie Louie, do something you're not happy about. And he's positioning or the geometry of where he is on the court, he needs to get clear on that, you know, and we say to Danny, he needs a good rub down and a good gentle chat, you know, do that kind of stuff. So, at the highest level, we're trying to keep these guys happy, right? Trying to keep them feeling a million dollars. But the journey is to get them there. One day, a million dollars. Next week, you get kicked in the nuts next, you know, next day we're celebrating next minute, we're saying get keep your feet on the floor. You've done nothing yet.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:35

Justin, I tip my hat to you. I really do. And I've loved listening to you. And my last question was before the Control the Controllables traditional quickfire round Justin, which I'm excited to hear your answers for. You're 18 Again, and you have a couple of minutes to talk to yourself. What words do you pass on to your 18 year old self?

Justin Sherring  1:17:02

It's interesting, because if you're not if you're not worried, if you're not stressed, if you're not striving, if you're not struggling, if you're not feeling all good, then maybe you don't feel you know, end up where I am right now. So I would say just a bit more perspective. Understand that struggle is struggle is okay. Insecurity is okay. I will say, keep playing. Definitely keep playing tennis because I say that to a lot of young people. Now I said, the more you can play tennis, and the better you can play tennis, don't just give up coaching. Don't get, don't just give up playing so that you can coach, the better you can play, the more of an insight you'll have, the more useful you're going to be. But yeah, just just accept the accept the struggle I've heard. I've heard a lot of top coaches sort of saying to players even now I do I do accept to accept the challenge. A team was an interesting time for me. I mean, I'm in the States. I mean, I'm in the USA, my mum's American, she lives in the States. And that junior college I mean, at that time, there weren't too many English accents around that was a popular guide. And you know, I did, I was okay, I was, you know, the guys like the English guy around but there was still a lot of insecurities and love, what am I going to do with my life? And my kids say to me now 20s, you know, 2324 25? What am I going to do? There's all this pressure to be someone to do something, it's like, slow down, slow down, just take your time. Just in you know, really take your time. And just, it will be well, it will be but but without that sort of without that wrestling that you have with amongst yourself with yourself? I don't know, I don't know, if you end up being anything. I think it has to be a tug of war. I think it has to be a little bit weak at one day feel good one day, wake up one day, one day feel awful. I think maybe it has to be like that. And then you find what you're willing to live with and what you're willing to survive on. And what makes you tick. So yeah, I would just say it's gonna be okay. To my 18 year old self, it's going to be okay. Very good.

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:00

I think that's an important message for lots of people to hear, right? Because the people that are trying to control the future will experience quite strong stresses and anxieties. And people that find it difficult to let go of the past will experience some pretty strong frustrations and, and challenges along the way. And it's I certainly will my kids, I would love them to have that message as well. But I am also with you. It's also not just surfing the surfboard are long and thin and life's easy and great and no problem because if we have that then we lose our edge. We lose we lose that a little bit as well that makes us who we are. So I think it's it's well said well articulated. And I think it just takes us nicely actually just an into a quick fire around but before we go there, I've loved it, man. I've absolutely loved it. I could listen to you for hours. I feel inspired. I feel I feel pumped up, you know, listening to you, I can 100% see how you've inspired many players, you know, and many, many people. And yeah, tennis is lucky to have you British tennis is lucky to have you a big well done in, in everything that you've achieved in your own your own world in your own life and for all of those lives that you've impacted me. It's, it's been a real pleasure.

Justin Sherring  1:20:29

Oh, you're in you know what you're incredibly kind. And it's, I was so excited. You know how this came about? I was so excited about even coming on to, you know, now all I'm saying is now two becomes two becomes one, whoever was on that mailout list that, you know, how that came about? You know, because of that, well, there was only two people on this mailout that, you know, there's this, there's this mailing that hadn't been on you. I was like, oh my god, I'm one of them. I wonder, now all I need to know is who the other guy is

Daniel Kiernan  1:20:56

So I'm going to share that because it's going to, you're going to be listening, thinking What's he talking about? So, Louis, who again, we've talked about the great man, Louis Cayer. Louis very kindly sent an email out, when when Control the Controllables won their best tennis podcasts for the third year running. And he said, as Louis again, we go back to this. And before I knew Louis, and you said it earlier. It doesn't need to do that, Louis, you don't I mean, like, this is genius. He's amazing. He's an amazing tennis brand, is he's impacted so many people, and he is known absolutely for his tennis. But when you get on the inside, you realize it's those little things that make a difference to character to relationship. And he is so fantastic. At that, and I feel very lucky that I'm in that inner circle now that he, he does that with me. And he sent a lovely email out. And there was some serious names on that email. You know, I, I showed my marketing team and I said, Hey, we could put a few of these on our marketing list. And when I looked at the list, I thought Bloody hell, there's only two people that haven't been on. I sent my thanks out to everyone. This is going to help us win, win it for a fourth year because this was so good. And we're going to use these clips. But the second person who hadn't been on and this is the world of tennis is bizarre, because the second person that hasn't been on is Luke Hammond. Now Luke Hammond is working with Julian Cash. Now Luke Hammond, my first ever tennis session as a coach, in 2004, 2005. I had four children on the court. And I had three tiny little kids and I had one monster. And, and I said to the kids, I said up, I will watch on him. And I remember it was it was you go it was Lawrence, it was Lucy and it was Luke. So I said, I said to the kid told you and and Lucy said, I'm six. And then you go and I'm six as well. And I said to Lauren and Lawrence when I'm six as well. And then I looked at Luke and I said what the hell is the 12 year old doing with the six year olds? So I said and what about you and he went five. I was like what? So he is the one of that list that hasn't been on? And I'm gonna say this if he is listening. I'm gonna give him a few months a couple of years just to build that story a little bit more and then we'll get done as well. It's been a pleasure now quickfire round Are you ready?

Justin Sherring  1:23:44

Well, yeah, I'll do my best Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:45

singles or doubles.

Justin Sherring  1:23:48

Doubles.

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:48

Davis Cup or United cup.

Justin Sherring  1:23:51

Davis Cup.

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:52

Your favorite Grand Slam?

Justin Sherring  1:23:55

Wimbledon,

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:55

Forehand or backhand.

Justin Sherring  1:23:58

Backhand.

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:59

Roger or Rafa.

Justin Sherring  1:24:01

Rafa

Daniel Kiernan  1:24:02

Serve or return

Justin Sherring  1:24:05

Return

Daniel Kiernan  1:24:06

The men's French Open 2024 Winner

Justin Sherring  1:24:10

Sinner

Daniel Kiernan  1:24:11

And the women's?

Justin Sherring  1:24:13

Iga

Daniel Kiernan  1:24:14

What's one rule change you would have in tennis

Justin Sherring  1:24:19

I've got an issue with injury timeouts I've actually got an issue with injury timeouts it's part of the game come on and be fit come on and be ready if you if that's where the battle is won the battle is won in the gym the battle is won in your fitness the battle is won in your resilience. So what the hell are you having all this physio timeouts for? I don't get it. So I know you've got a crowd and I know they pay their money. You got to keep the match going. But I'd actually I'd actually have some times where I don't care. I don't care if you're injured, play injured. I don't care. It's my bed. I'm fairly new stronger than you. Yeah. And your timeouts.

Daniel Kiernan  1:24:48

Get rid get rid I'm with you. What does control the controllables mean to you?

Justin Sherring  1:24:54

Well, it you know what, it's absolutely outrageous because I teach a young boys 14 And the mom and he's so into is absolutely into it. And she was just literally asking me questions about really how do I navigate? How do I navigate there? How do I get out of it, get out of it, get through this. And she's had a daughter, she's rushed and she had a daughter that game through rhythmic gymnastics and she won a medal at the Olympics. She was I just can't get I just can't get handle on tennis. I just, it just I just don't get it. You know, one minute he's playing well, next minute, he's sailing, hitting balls out of the back and the tell him it's a long go. And but we've got another tournament to play. Do we play to what do we do this? We do that and I just I literally just said, Hey, just ask yourself is what I'm stressing about? Is this something I can do about it is in your control. And she goes, Okay, and I said, if it is then we go home, we go all in. And we go all in and we make it the best we can. And if it isn't, it never even existed. It didn't even exist. So I use that a lot. And I'm glad that you you brought it into like mainstream circulation, because I love it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:25:59

My last, it's not a question as such, I'm gonna say three names. And you're gonna get and you're gonna give us no more than 20 seconds you have to say what first comes to your mind with these three names. And the first one is Joanna canta.

Justin Sherring  1:26:17

Awesome.

Daniel Kiernan  1:26:18

Joe Salisbury

Justin Sherring  1:26:20

Monster,

Daniel Kiernan  1:26:22

Jack Draper

Justin Sherring  1:26:23

Warrior.

Daniel Kiernan  1:26:25

And who should our next guest be on control the controllables Wow.

Justin Sherring  1:26:30

So you've already had Jack and you've already had Joe right? Is there an is there like an age limit on this stuff? I love the maturity I know she's only 14 But I love the maturity of someone like I had a hammock gloveman.

Daniel Kiernan  1:26:42

I think Hannah would be a great guest.

Justin Sherring  1:26:44

She's amazing. And she's 14 going on 25 So it would be lovely to have like a Yeah, have it sort of a pre champion chat because I feel like that's what you're having and I wish her all the very best and I don't want to put any markers on her at all. But I mean the the girl is the girls remarkable. She's She's amazing. So if we want to know what it would have been like to be around a Tracy Austin or Andrew Yeager or Jennifer Capra, you know all of these all of these young phenom then you get the opportunity to get inside the mind get into the brain of someone that feels because I think it would have been an interesting chat with with Jack at 1415 when you know when I showed him a picture of Juergen melts his backhand because that's what we're going after as a lefty and he says, What are you doing? What are you bringing me mouse's backhand for mouse's and in the world? What are you doing? And I said, What do you want me to bring Rafa? And he goes well, of course Rafa, why are you bringing him outside? So I was like, You need to get that they're quite something. They're quite something. But listen, I just want to say I just think you're incredible for what you've what you've done and what you set up, and what you do. And I and I really hope that we do have that catch up in Indian Wells. And I'd hoped that we have a bunch of catch ups because I loved I love talking to a lot. I love the way you communicate your passion your you talk about you could do anything, not just tennis. And I think you're just a living, you know, the living example of that. So I really enjoyed chatting to Dan, and I think I think you're really great guy. And I just I just want to know, how much do I owe you for the therapy?

Daniel Kiernan  1:28:16

Thank you just not a not a single penny. It's been my privilege. I will be in touch because part of the small print is that you pass the baton on. So your job is to have the word with Benny Haron to get Hannah to come on obviously I wouldn't want to push that without going through the right channels. But I agree I think she's she's absolutely fantastic. And I think having a chat with with her at this age and stage I think a lot of people would learn from it, but just the top man, thank you so much. And we will have to do this again. I think feel we've only scratched the surface of what we could delve into. So let's call this one part one.

Justin Sherring  1:28:57

You got it down. It's been such a pleasure and a privilege and I'm so glad that I got back to you about wondering who those two were knowing darn well that one or that was me. So thank you so much my friend and I see at sea in the sunshine. See you

Daniel Kiernan  1:29:10

soon. Thanks, man. What did I tell ya I told you that you would love it is honestly I came away from that conversation. Just buzzing I was apart from both from his phone or from his phone battery going near the end. But I really did II just was so infectious, the storytelling, the inspirational way and it's so easy to see how is impacted so many people's lives through the vehicle of tennis. You know, that is my big philosophy. That is our big philosophy at the Sato Tennis Academy. And yeah, before we even start talking about forehands backhands before we start talking about tactics and how to play the game, if you are an inspiration if you are able to bring the The best out of your players and demand through how you are as a person and build these amazing relationships. You are already one hell of a coach. And that just, I would love if I was to ever play tennis again, Justin is my man, he's my coach, because he just has that ability to bring the best out of people. And you do get that feeling when you're with him. I've been fortunate to spend a little bit of time with him again, here the last couple of weeks out in the States, and he just brings a big smile to my face. So Justin, if you're listening to this, you're a legend. You're a top man. Truly I love the conversation. I'm sure you guys did too. And as ever, a big thank you to you all for listening. And on a more somber note, we've we've all woken up here in Miami to the quite shocking and horrendous news that world number two arena Sabalenka her boyfriend Konstantin Kotsov of as died. And as died so suddenly. And yeah, it's hard to really find the words of what Aryna and her team are going through. We were anyone that's been here in Miami will know that the Hard Rock stadium where the Miami Dolphins play, they've made half of the stadium, the center court and then the other half, a big kind of artificial grass area where all of the players are warming up, you'll see various people doing different things. I think we saw Johnny O'Mara hitting golf balls for Andy Murray to catch on social media over the last couple of days. But it's quite a nice area because you you're interacting with the players and it was only yesterday morning as we were warming up for our morning session. That Aryna was there with her team and I don't know arena personally, but I know there always seems to be a lot of joy. There seems to be a very tight knit group within her team, you know, they're always doing something funny with each other and I just can't quite imagine that only only a few hours later. This devastating thing has happened and, uh, my my thoughts, my prayers go out to Aryna, to Konstantin's family and I just yeah, it just brings home for all of us guys, you know, hug your loved ones very tightly. You know, it brings a perspective to what we're all doing. Wishing you all very well wherever you are, as I said, hug your loved ones tightly. And we will be back as always, but until next time. I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables