Sue Anstiss: Empowering Women in Sport

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 218 of Control the Controllables. And I'm bringing this episode to you, from Indian Wells, Palm Springs, California. The tennis gods are very much shining upon us, as I look outside my window and see the blue skies, I see the beautiful mountain range. And the glorious tennis tournament that anyone that's been to Indian Wells, it's called 'the tennis paradise' for a reason. And yeah, my gratitude is stretched out, you know, we think about the tennis calendar. And those players that are competing at the top level, they're going from Brisbane, to Adelaide, to Melbourne, to Doha, to Dubai, to Rotterdam to Palm Springs, to Miami, to Madrid to Rome to Paris. And I think my message actually at the start here for someone who is almost 44 years old, and this is my first experience at this, this top level of the game in a consistent basis. So I have that perspective, I've got that perspective of building your way up and, and the lower levels of the sport where everyone's working as hard. Everyone's putting the same amount of work in. But the locations aren't quite as luxurious as Palm Springs. And yet I see so many players that are still struggling and feeling like it's a hardship and I just want to just shake them a little bit and say, come on, guys, when you look back at this time, look at what you have, you know, this is an incredible opportunity for so many. And I guess like anything in life, we always are looking at the grass being a little bit greener. And so that's my little bit of a rant, but also my show of gratitude for this amazing sport and for the opportunity that I currently have. And the second big thing that I want to mention today is International Women's Day. And we all have amazing women in our lives. You know, whether you're talking about your mom, your auntie your gran. In my position, I am very thankful for so many, my wife who is an incredible woman who's the role model for our children. And then I have to have a special mention today to to my mam who is suffering with dementia right now and is really not doing well. You know, it's a very cruel disease. And thinking of anyone that that has had that disease in their family, it really is cruel. And somebody who has shown me the way 40 plus years, and I just want to give a big shout out and I love you a lot ma'am. I know that you won't be listening to this, but I know in spirit that you will. And what better way to celebrate International Women's Day than to have someone who has championed empowerment in sport for women for over 30 years now Sue Anstiss MBE you know, she's an author, she's a podcaster. She's an entrepreneur, and she's driven change in women's sport now, like I say for over 30 years. She is the CEO of Fearless Women and the co-founder of the Women's Sport Collective and not for profit networking for women in sport. Some of you would have seen the Netflix show or game on which is a series promoting women's sport. And she has her own Game Changers podcast, and her first book game on the unstoppable rise of women's sport she really has been someone that has dedicated her life to influence and bring change and I always say the first step of change is for us to have awareness first to have an understanding and it needs these conversations. To do that. I am proud of what we're doing in tennis you know we make big strides in tennis still not enough still things that need to be done. But when you compare that to to other sports, I think tennis is certainly a big step ahead. And I hope that this conversation will help continue getting the thoughts provoked, getting people being aware of the situations, the subtle situations that are happening on a day to day basis. And Sue is certainly a brilliant guest to do that and I'm very thankful that she's come on and shared her story on control the controllables. So I'm now going to pass you over without any further ado, to Sue Anstiss. Sue Anstiss, a big welcome to Control the Controllables. How you doing?

Sue Anstiss  05:16

Yeah, really good, thank you, lovely to be here.

Daniel Kiernan  05:18

It's, it's great to have you. And as I've just said, off air, we could end up if I go too much about your your life, you've achieved so much and done so much, I think I might get to our 45 minute window. And we haven't attacked some of some of the subjects that I want you. So I'm gonna start and I'm going to start with a with a quote and a quote from your book, Game On. And that is, 'We don't want to take over, we just want to take part.'

Sue Anstiss  05:52

I love when people quote back my book to me, it's like, you have to just think back to it. Yeah. And I think that is, resonates with me, I think is the essence really of a lot of what we do. And I guess that perception that men have had historically. And it is primarily men in that in that space. And even recently, that feeling that women are coming in, and there's less for them, because we're kind of women are coming in to take away from their sport, where it actually is a hugely positive element for everybody, if we've got more equality across sport.

Daniel Kiernan  06:23

And when you say the essence, I guess, when we we look at what you've done over over the last 30 years, you know, there's been a big, obviously a big dedication to the, to this mission, you know, so tell us a little more about that, you know, when we when we look at equality in sport, and in particular, the ability to empower women within that, you know, if we go back 15, 20 years, what was that place like? And And how was that then the inspiration for you to really push for change?

Sue Anstiss  06:54

Yeah it has been, I don't know if it's been a mission across those whole 30 years, but definitely the last, as you say, last 15 years or so I think I've I've really been championing and, you know, keen to drive that change. And it's really in the last two or three years that we've really seen a momentous change in terms of profile and funding and spectators and all that we're all talking about now. So for me, yeah, it's very much a gradual process. And I think there'll be women that have been around. Yeah, older than me even but way back, that saw some of that change. So it's not like it's something that's just happened recently. It's everything building upon the women that went before. But definitely, I think the last, as you say, sort of two, three decades, we've seen a real shift and a shift at all levels. So it is around that leadership, who's in charge who's making decisions right down to the funding that's coming in how much airtime media, it gets, across all of women's sport, is one of those opportunities to be professional athletes, I do a lot of work in team sport. So rugby, football, cricket, netball. And it's easy to forget, it's only in the last decade that we've had professional athletes in most sport. So it has all come, you know, fairly recently and very quickly.

Daniel Kiernan  08:05

Well, I live in Spain and live in the south of Spain, and I have two daughters and a son. And it definitely feels like they're a little bit behind here with that as well. I've got my eldest daughter is 15 later this year. And we've always craved having an opportunity for a team sport, and there just hasn't been many. You know, I think that's probably what we saw in the UK. 1520 years ago, we've actually felt it here in Spain. If you go to the bigger cities, I'm sure Barcelona Madrid, then obviously that's evolved with with the times. But what are some of those other other things in this, more the subtleties, our guests, because it's the subtleties I've also been challenged on. And I hope you're gonna challenge me on even more today, you know, and I think I'm certainly very open to that, because I've realized there was many subtle sexism things that I would say or do without actually realizing because it wasn't, it wasn't in my space. Right. And, and I think it would be good to just hear from you on, if we do go back 15, 20 years, what are some of those subtleties that we saw, being a woman in sports, and the challenges that women have to overcome or girls had to overcome that maybe now as we get to 2024, we're starting to at least see the light in some of those areas?

09:36

Yeah I think it's many and it's not just in the last 15, 20 years, but the last 30 years before so I think it is. A lot of it's just the basic ecosystem and the infrastructure having a place in those sports to play. And I'm conscious that we're talking on a tennis related podcast and actually of all sports tennis is kind of done well in this space historically. So I'll park tennis for the moment but in terms of more For those sports that have had that big profile, the funding the investment except to the big team sports that have been traditionally male. So I think for a long time, there wasn't really a space for women, for virtually in clubs, there weren't teams for them to play, it never didn't have that coverage that funding. So women didn't feel there was a place for them to play sport. And I think that's a piece that has changed. And with that coming leadership, women in decision making positions, and being able to encourage and be role models, not just on the field of play, but also within boardrooms. And in making those decisions to buy to always, you know, I believe that that sport reflects society. So when you talk about that kind of sexism, or what we've grown up with, inherently, a lot of that is just what's in society, but sport kind of magnifies that, it to a great extent, because it is this unique cultural thing that we, you know, it brings us together as communities and we celebrate, we feel those emotions, it's something that's so powerful. So it has the ability to kind of magnify what we see anyway, in society, whether that is around racism, or homophobia or sexism, you know, sexism, the issues that we see often just kind of exacerbated through sport, but, but what has a great chance to drive change as well, by doing it differently to the rest of society.

Daniel Kiernan  11:11

But I actually, my brother got married or go, you'll not forgive me for this, but maybe 10, 12 years ago, and my sister younger sister was, we were very close and age 18 months apart. She got quite upset that that evening, and some things came out about when she was younger, because there was three boys. And my dad, and we were very much we kind of took over the family when I reflect, you know, at the time, I didn't know, you know, we were just kids, but our family was football on the TV. If it wasn't football, it was it was rugby. And it was obviously men's football, and it was men's rugby, and then if you if you can't see it, then it's hard to be it and, and my sister obviously didn't feel connected to that, then we were in the other room playing table tennis or playing snooker. And again, probably pretending to be Steve Davis or Stephen Hendry, or, you know, the people that we've seen on the TV, and she actually reflects on on her childhood, not in such a positive way, which, which really upsets me to think that she went through that actually, without us having any idea, then I kind of fast forward to now. And I see the excitement that my my daughters get from watching the World Cup, you know, and being able to see the lionesses that then actually transforms into I'm a big Newcastle United fans, so they now really fallen Newcastle United as well. And we all watching the football together, whether that's men's football, or that's women's football, you know, and we'll get into that a little bit later as well. And and I think it's, it's really sad, that that so many people have gone through and continue to go through that, that that situation. And people like you bringing it to the forefront does such a good job of making us I think all reflect on our own situations and how we can do things better.

Sue Anstiss  12:45

And it's interesting, I feel for your sister because I had three brothers and a very, my dad was a PTI in the Met Police a very sporty family. So I had a twin brother though, so and I feel actually what I ended up doing was becoming really sporty almost be you know, because of that probably, or that wasn't necessarily football, and I asked for a lot of rugby and other sports on television all the time. So I do feel for her there. And I think of us that's really important what you said there isn't it's just about reflecting on where we are with it. Because I think the more you hear research, there's obviously the extremes in a male audience. And there's that Joey Bartons and they're completely negative, whatever happens, they're gonna hate women and women's sport that's kind of the given. And then you've got men at the other end who a huge allies and supporters of and for me, it's Trump's in the middle that we need to just bring across to him is want to see how it benefits everyone to be more inclusive, the how great women's sport can be. And I think that's where we're seeing the biggest change is people seeing actually it's not it wasn't anything negative on purpose of trying to exclude women, it was just that was how families were how sport was, as you say, it wasn't, you know, we didn't see women's sport. So I think that's where we're seeing a lot of that that shift really is men recognizing, actually, yeah, why why should my daughter not have a chance to play? And then it's a bit of a trope, isn't it that whole I'm the father of daughters, and therefore I support them in sport. And for some in the industry, that's a bit frustrating because actually, you're also the son of a mother and you've often got sisters and people haven't you know, but suddenly it's having daughters that I think does bring men more awareness of like, oh my God, I've got this daughter and she's gonna miss out on all these things that I had. And sometimes it's having a bringing someone in the world that makes you recognize actually it's not equal but but you almost as a young man Going up might not have appreciated that

Daniel Kiernan  15:02

one of the names I've got written down a little bit later but I want to jump into it now because you've mentioned him Joey Barton and not that we necessarily want to give Joey too much airtime you know and I'm a big Newcastle United fan and he played for Newcastle as well but I had two, two men written down Andy Murray which I definitely will touch on but then Joey Barton and my thing I wanted to bring up on on Joey Barton or a like minded person to Joey Barton who like you says kind of he's made his mind up right? That's that's how that's how he is he's very strong. However, I just wonder in my own head by having the Joey Barton's of the world making these bold comments and crazy comments and stupid comments at times. It does bring an emotive, an emotion out of not just women, but out of a lot of men as well. And it brings them to the forefront and more of an awareness and more more conversation around it. I don't know what you what you think on that?

Sue Anstiss  16:08

Absolutely. Absolutely. I do feel, and is how much of social media isn't it and politics become so polarizing? I don't even know that Joe Barton does believe all the things he posts I think he's just trying to get more traffic to his social media and his new podcasts and all that stuff as well. I think a lot of it is your you know, find whatever popular opinion is go against it to try and kind of generate that reaction. But I do agree to I'm really feel for Eni Aluko and those that have been kind of head of all that horrible hatred and vitriol that's come out of the comments that he's made. But it has made us go and have those conversations. And absolutely this man met so many amazing men that have and actually when he's then moved on from women to start, it's kind of racist rants and homophobic rants and everything that actually more and more have come on board as well to to say, Absolutely. This isn't acceptable. I saw something recently that I heard something a podcast around, there is a bit of a danger or we talk about it as if it's normal. So Andrew Tate, Joey Barton, that that whole extremeism of men and young men, but actually that isn't the norm like that isn't the norm for most men that I know and kind of guys in university and young boys coming through school. But actually, if we always talk about it as if that is acceptable the norm, then will others begin to adopt that behavior. And actually, if we can make more noise, we can have more premiership footballers and coaches and others coming out and supporting women's teams women's sport work, then actually your human nature is to align yourself with what popular culture is saying. And actually, we need more men, because as you said, we've all mentioned Andy Murray, I talk a lot about Andy Murray in the book and on podcasts, etc. But he's one of very few and it's a long time ago, you know, he's constantly been an amazing male ally for women's sport, but But why am I still talking about him when that I'd like to have 100 men to talk about. Ian, Wright, Andy Murray like they're, they're few and far between. But actually, How amazing would it be if it was just the norm and everybody spoke out in the way that he did?

Daniel Kiernan  18:09

And I think that's, that's a really fair point. And I think that's a point I hope we all take on as well. Because I go to Andy and Andy someone I actually grew up playing against, I have a few years on and but at the end of my playing career was the start of his playing career. And I've always massively looked up to Andy, because he's a British player who has achieved so much on the world stage with tennis, tennis is my thing. It's my passion. That's what I've done. But where I've actually learned to look up to Andy, even more in recent times, is the fact that he's got these words out there and he's got this brought awareness to this issue. And I would say definitely, personally, when I talk about subtle sexism, you know, I think you know, he's had a few and I'm sure you've talked about it, but, you know, Novak Djokovic has won the most ever grand slams, well, no, he hasn't Serena Williams and Margaret Court have one more, you know, this whenever, you know, these little things that journalists talk about. But the point that I want to bring up on Andy, because I asked him about this when he was on the podcast. And a lot of people think it's from Judy. And Judy is amazing, and is such a massive advocate, and it's empowering women in sport, whether that's coaches or players, but he actually said it was Amelie Mauresmo, and it was his experience of of having a female coach with him, where he almost couldn't believe what he was hearing and seeing and reactions that were happening towards Amelie and like, again, like it he actually went on and he said, You know, when I lose a tennis match, normally nobody mentions my coach. And then here they are, everyone's talking about Amelie and it must be her fault. And he even said that, you know, people in his team were questioning it, which they were not question that if that was Ivan Lendl or if that was a world number one male tennis player. But I guess that the bit that it gets me reflecting on Sue is, it's really hard to have strong opinion, and it takes a lot of understanding, empathy, to have such a strong understanding of people's lives that you don't live and don't feel. And it almost seemed to me that Andy's strength in this area came from actually having this personal experience with a female coach. And you've mentioned there a lot lot of fathers sit around having daughters, because all of a sudden it's in their world. So how do we, how do we get it into people's world? And this is not just about equality from sexism, this is obviously there's there's there's a whole diverse range of things that this fits into. How are we able to do that without people actually personally experiencing it? Yeah.

Sue Anstiss  21:07

And it's hard, isn't it as well, because I do feel there's an element of that kind of pushback then against what people might term as woke I would class as being kind and compassionate and inclusive, I'm very happy to be all of those things. But there is a bit of a pushback, because people feel it's being forced upon them. And that's the challenge, isn't it, we don't want to say people, you have to have this because it's the right, because we're saying you have to have it actually, you want them to come on board, because they see it as is the right thing to do. But also, it's good for everybody. And I think there's definitely an if we're talking specifically on the sports side, there's an element of people feeling the pie is only so big. And if we give women more Sports coverage, or we give it more funding, or we give it more investment, there's less for the men sport that I truly love and want to pay my Sky subscription if I don't get to just watch more men's football, I don't want the women's football is an example that I hear a lot. But actually, it's explained to people that it is good for everybody, but it's good that will benefit for them in the long term. So that may be that it's a financial benefit, but actually equality benefits all people, it isn't just that the smaller party that get more from it, or those that have been deprived of it for so long. And that's the other piece, I think, that people are becoming more aware of too. But you know, there's a reason, women's sport has had less audiences and has had less visibility, because it hasn't had the investment that men's sport has had for hundreds, hundreds of years, 150 years or so. So there is definitely that redressing the balance. And that can be I think, uncomfortable for people. So success of the Euros, and it was talking specifically football and the World Cup and that you know, Arsenal, the Emirates having pack stadia, you know, we can suddenly overturn these arguments of no one's interested in women's football, the skill is not there, the audience is not there, clearly, we can see that it is now and I think that it's demonstrating that it is as good if not, in some cases, you know, more entertaining to watch than than some men's sport. We don't need everyone. Everyone doesn't have to love all us or we don't have to love all of women's sport. It's just giving women an opportunity, the same opportunity. And in some cases, it's not about equality, it's about equity. So it's investing a bit more in the women's game because a women's sport because it hasn't had that investment has been deprived of it for so long.

Daniel Kiernan  23:21

Absolutely. I actually marked some of my favorite sporting events to watch like, really? I love these events are mixed events. Absolutely. They either the triathlon mix really Yeah, like amazing. And I love mixed doubles in tennis as well, you know, they have this United Cup that was on at the start of the year. And, and the most exciting matches were the mixed doubles, you know, and I've been fortunate to coach some players that have played in mixed doubles events at the big grand slams. And the contrast the contrast of, of games, and how and the contrast of, of styles in the whole way that it comes together. I think there's a space there that isn't isn't used in in the sporting world anywhere near enough. And but Sue I want to I do want to jump into tennis a little bit more. And you said at the start, and I've always been an advocate of this, and I've always been quite proud of our sport for it. Even though we've got to push for more. It's not it's absolutely nowhere near where it needs to be. In a classical sense, we measure rightly, well, it's not, it's wrongly that we measure it often in prize money and viewership. And there's obviously a lot more complexities to it than that. But if we purely look at prize money, you know, Forbes salaries study come out 2023 And nine of the top 10 Highest Paid female athletes were tennis players. And I think that's quite That's quite normal. I often use the one name, name your top 20 female athletes of the last 20 years and you normally have a very high percentage of tennis players. But then there's also the element that I look at the sport and they say, Well, is it doing a better job than most sport? Yeah, probably is in lots of ways. But then they're about to go in with Saudi Arabia. You know, the WTA Finals is, is it looks like it's gonna happen and move to Saudi Arabia, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova have already penned an open letter to the WTA on that, you know, how can we be gone to a country that that there's so many concerns around women's rights? You know, is that a step downwards? We still see the journalists very much talking about you know, somebody who's gonna win who's gonna win Wimbledon? Novak Djokovic. Well, what? You know, like you know, these kinds of things are still absolute absolutely there in terms of the yes camp from my side. And then it's the floor is yours. You know, viewership, you know, Emma Raducanu winning the US Open viewing figures, you know, off the charts, you know, the we are seeing the view and figures on the tennis side, in many matches higher than that higher than the men's the prize money now has a quality at all the grand slams, and all of the joint events. But I think it's pretty much all I think maybe Indian Wells haven't gone there yet. But but there's obviously if we compare it to some sports, yes, they're doing a great job. But inside the sport, there's still lots more than that can be done. What's What's your take on how, how we're attacking this issue within the sport of tennis?

Sue Anstiss  26:44

Yeah, I think you're obviously right. I think for me, I look across an umbrella view across all of sport and women's sport. And I think you're right tennis from way back when with all that Billie Jean King fought for in terms of WTA and equal prize money, like so much farther ahead than so many of us, you know, the conversations we're having now around cricket and football and others in terms of prize money, the FA Cup or for The 100, or that women are still 2024 and we're still having the conversations that were being had in tennis over 50 years ago. So that's a really positive place that tennis got a massive jump and brought some of the sports with them, but actually many still playing catch up. So I do feel from that side, it is positive, as you've said, there are there are still issues as I've made this and issues around clothing around women, women's clothing for tennis, and whether why we're not you know, that whole skirts and dresses, and obviously why it's that women are now allowing dark on the shorts, but that 2023 has taken a long time because of tradition and, and what we've always accepted. So I think there's elements around that. And I guess then that comes through to the positioning. And again, it's that piece of society, reflecting sport and sport, you know, magnifying what we see in society, but, but the issues of those women historically who have been more successful in terms of sponsorship and endorsements, typically, you know, looking like traditional women, like we want that overly feminine look and feel obviously Serena and Venus note that kind of history. We won't go into all of that now. But you know, that kind of highlighted that, but how amazing that they've driven change. And we've kind of celebrated kind of women from all backgrounds and all kinds of women in having success in tennis too. So I do feel as you say tennis is the one that's often in the spotlight because it has had much more funding and more profile and those kind of women have had huge success. And it's also had to fight quite hard to lead the way in terms of some of that change. Whereas in a sport now that we're seeing growing like rugby as a lot of working with rugby, where you've already got a real diverse mix of women taking part competing, you know, it's kind of celebrated for that anyway, whereas perhaps tennis historically, a bit. My mum played a lot of tennis actually with that whole elegant lot of backline tennis she was playing in the in the 50s and 60s, very graceful, elegant background of that. That was kind of how she played tennis. I remember, never wanted to play my dad, he was a little chippy shots and volleys and that wasn't how she had been taught to play tennis. You know, that wasn't how women play tennis. So I think we've we've obviously seen a huge shift in that in recent years.

Daniel Kiernan  29:20

Sue, I was actually the other way. So I'm from just outside of Newcastle and I played I played football and I played tennis but the tennis I didn't know it then I was doing well. I was just playing tennis, but I often missed football matches. Now you imagine the Geordie missing a football match to go and play a tennis match. And I was called a sissy and you're big this and you're big that and I actually experienced that the other way. Which which is quite interesting what you're saying there as well.

Sue Anstiss  29:55

I think isn't I think is interesting, I guess in terms of the WTA goes to an investment, where their private equity comes from. The whole of sport is is complex and has many challenges in terms of wherever corporate or investment is coming from. There will always be questions asked, I feel but But 10 It does feel like tennis has led the way on many of those conversations and rightly celebrated for you know, I guess on the Emma Raducanu piece, I think the negativity and the vitriol that she got for the sponsorship and the opportunity that she had post the the US Open win you don't see that for male tennis players, I think that there's lots of inherent sexism that we can see. And that's just one example, in different ways to as you say, the whole assumption that it's the men's game, that the men's championship, that will be the main one, I see something that I was I was touching some awards, I've pushed didn't show here. I was judging someone was that it was a competition they'd done for kids. And you could win a pair of tickets to the, you know, the men single gentleman's final set. Yeah, well, why in the 24? Why is it not the women's final? Well, I don't even want to, you know, I'd rather go to the women's and the men's. But there's still to build a little element of that, that that's the highest part. And the women's is slightly secondary. But we see that less in tennis, I think then we do many other sports, which is to be celebrated.

Daniel Kiernan  31:15

Yeah. And but not as less as you think. No. Yeah, exactly. And as someone who my, my tennis playing career was, I'm I was, I'm a man. So I played in the men's events. I have coached just tennis players over the years. So I've coached lots of lots of men, lots of women, lots of boys, lots of girls. But my, my predominant coaching over the last seven, eight months has been on the WTA Tour. And, and it's been a real eye opener for me, it really has, you know, from lack of tournament opportunities, you know, lack of lack of marketing opportunities. It's just just general. Yeah, just general comments that are made, you know, like, and we actually we, in tennis, you've got second class citizens as doubles, players, the singles players. And then second class citizens is how it feels is the women to the men. So as a coach of a women's doubles team, it's like, you won a grand slam in women's doubles. Okay, kind of whatever, you know, and when you think about how it's celebrated, you know, from a from a male, I mean, a male singles will be number one, women's singles will be number two male doubles would be will be number three, and then women's doubles would be number four. And that's, and that's then not even going into wheelchair tennis, blind tennis, you know, so there's this, this whole whole hierarchy, but I think we have to take, take the wins while we can. But just a couple of more specific questions on that. You don't mind Sue. But like, you know, so what do you see as some of the main areas that are still seeing clear gender equality inequalities? And then what can we then do to improve that?

Sue Anstiss  33:06

I think coaching is a huge, huge issue in tennis, but across sport, too. And actually, I say that whole, you've had Andy I had Judy on my podcast, and I think talking about, it was eye opening for me almost as to why we don't see more women coaching in terms of those higher levels, but in terms of not being able to knock up and be the kind of training partner to the most senior women on the tour, which I hadn't even thought about that whole, giving that kind of background to me, but in other sports, in tennis, but also in other sports too, why do we not see every 10% I think 10 or 11%, of coaches at Paris 2024 and the Paralympics will be women, whereas it's 50:50 in terms of competitors. So that whole area of women as coaches because I do think it's not just about women as performance coaches and be able to celebrate them, but but many young girls coming through wanting to be coached by women as well, too. And it does make a difference in terms of access and those taking part as well too. So I do feel that female coaching, and how we begin to change that ecosystem. And it's not a quick fix. But that's really important across many, many sports and women and within leadership, I think, you know, there again, sporting him done some great stuff in terms of the code for sports governance and trying to get more boards to have at least 30% of each gender on a board. But also senior teams and the executive teams are the people that are making the decisions in those big Federation's so UEFA, FIFA, you know, who's around the table making decisions around investment funding, access, opportunities, media coverage, you know, and that so that still hasn't changed enough. So I think there is almost for me at that top level, beginning to shift that and not just gender but all inclusion across different diversities that will enable them to reflect more of society and make sport more equitable for, yeah, for all people that want to take part

Daniel Kiernan  35:02

I actually, I was out in Australia and I, I bumped into her at the practice courts and had a great chat with her. But, you know, she, she was really excited. She was doing something in Australia. And there was this big kind of enthusiasm behind all about getting more women coaches getting getting the sport from from a grassroot level, whereas the the mishits that she'd had going on in the UK, she seemed a little bit downbeat, that it hadn't quite taken off as much as she first felt, actually, and maybe, maybe that the commercial element element had come in. And that's, that's also I think, something that's some often unseen when you're looking for sponsors, or you're looking at ways of developing these programs, that you don't just have people coming in to tick a box. And go yet we're helping women's sport. Yeah, we're helping this. No, no, are you really like Judy's hands on really helping and getting other people in these positions to do that. And that's, that's something that's definitely a challenge. I think, within within Federation's organizations of how it doesn't just become this tick box thing, it is about creating the best people for the best jobs and giving the the opportunities to everybody, not just saying that we're doing it. And I don't know if you've got any thoughts on that?

Sue Anstiss  36:29

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the same for I say we're talking coaching, but just generally in terms of investment and profile, I think we we need more of that insight and the data that shows the impact that that investment in those things can make in organizations like women's sport, trust, charity, constantly now releasing figures about who is the audience who's coming into the sport? You know, what, what, what's the makeup of fan base? What is the result that sponsors are getting, and I think that sharing more of that data, so because often, again, it is those brand managers, or it's the rights broadcasters who are buying the broadcasting rights for properties too, we're beginning to see and understand more of the fan base of who that audience is. I think we've been seeing a lot of that in the last few years. And that's very powerful. But we'll, I sometimes feel almost like a little bit ahead of ourselves. So there have been some fantastic sponsors that have come in to this sport across different sports. But actually, we haven't quite caught up with where the growth is just yet. But But hopefully, you know, the next five years, we will see more of that pickup.

Daniel Kiernan  37:29

And before I move into the future, which I because there's so much more we haven't scratched the surface, right? Is you work with teams, you've done quite a bit of work with teams, you mentioned there, the rugby. And as part of I guess I'm talking about the youth right now, people involved in youth teams, what can we do and this there's people listening to this right now that are going to be taking this message on board. What can we do to make them feel more heard more seen?

Sue Anstiss  38:00

Coaches or the athletes?

Daniel Kiernan  38:03

 The athletes

Sue Anstiss  38:04

Yeah, I think that often, it's just making sure that facilities are there for them. If I think about rugby, specifically, as a huge actually, kind of positive piece has already started with the RFU around the Rugby World Cup in 2025. And a massive investment of about 8 million has gone into changing rooms, which feels like a really simple, not that sexy, what have you but if you think about the facilities, the traditional rugby club not having changing rooms, not having any sanitary bins within the toilets, not having showers that are clean and accessible, not having enough change rooms. So women can also play on Saturday alongside the men so sometimes I think it is almost those what feels like kind of not boring, but but not that it huge investment and whatever but just equipment, coaches, facilities, etc. So making sure it is accessible, truly accessible, when we go women and girls wanting to come down and play. So I think we are seeing some changes there. And the thing that I do love is we do see a bit of a domino effect of you see one sport, doing it really well and almost shining a light on what can be done and then perhaps other sports looking and reflecting about how they can make changes to to make themselves more accessible for women and girls.

Daniel Kiernan  39:10

It's funny, though, those aren't the things that you necessarily think about it's changed or have just changed share a really quick one actually, when we we were looking at building a facility many years ago, I did a research job looking at many different facilities and speaking to many different people, and the changing rooms was something that came up actually all those years ago. And and and they were talking about the the importance actually of making sure that the changing rooms are a place where where women and this is actually slightly a little bit subtle sex as to what came out of the report, because it was where the women will go with the children.

Sue Anstiss  39:56

Yeah, but it's it's life also, isn't it? That is sorry. So is also that is good. I think that there's a piece around toilets and changing rooms that often it's supposed to be about being at Twickenham at the weekend for the England Wales game, that actually the toilets, actually women, if you look at the science that women take longer need more space take longer because they've got caring, generally they've got children or they've got older parent caring for parents, whatever, and they need to take longer, because, you know, God forbid, we might talk about periods, but women have periods they take longer in toilets to. So actually they need more space and more stalls than than the men do, too. So I think just on a closing, but I think sometimes we are where, you know, worried about talking about those things. That's the essence of making a place accessible for all and actually, periods and girls not playing you know, 40% of girls saying their parents taught them playing sport in schools or not going to play sport. Actually, what's amazing in the last three to five years is we are having these conversations. I'm on your podcast talking about it. And we're beginning to have you know, I think it has society makes it uncomfortable for us to talk about those things historically. But we are now beginning to have those conversations and that I've jumped foot forward now, that excites me for the future, that we're opening up and having some of those conversations.

Daniel Kiernan  41:10

And do you think when we when we talk about the subject of periods, do you think that is something that you're seeing it we're talking about 50% of the population and how that's how that's ever viewed, viewed as a taboo topic is beyond me. But do you think what you're seeing, and obviously, your ears are close to the ground with coaches and athletes? And is that something that is as normalized as it should be now? Or is it becoming more and more normalized, certainly, in my world, as a, as a coach, I feel it is, you know, like, if I'm, if I'm working with a female athlete, now, I'm not gonna push that, but it is such an important part of understanding from a from a training standpoint, from an injury management standpoint, from from so many different, you know, training loads, it's now very normalized within our Academy. That's part of the process, which it absolutely should be, and you might get some people that aren't so comfortable with it. But in your view, is that now a much more normalized topic lately?

Sue Anstiss  42:21

It's better, I absolutely wouldn't say it's normalized at all. And there's some incredible work, so the UKIS,so what was the EIS had done some great work in the space, the Well HQ, working with coaches, and primarily and that sort of thing, coming back to the whole 90% of coaches at the Olympic Games will be male coaches. So performance directors that have been around forever that may not have had taught me, even if I had daughters, I've not talked to them, their wives and girlfriends, it has been that taboo subject, and I think it's not wanting to talk about it not wanting to appear weak or to put excuses, you know, all those all those conversations. So there's a lot of great work that's being done to educate people to make more normal and more accepted. But I think we're, we're still away from where we should be. But the fact that so many sports and clubs are now allowing women to play in dark shorts, or beginning to change clothing. That's only in the last 2, 3, 4 years, we've seen that shift. So you know, so yeah, let's like it's really easy to look negatively at where we are. But let's be excited for the positive change that's coming. That's kind of my approach is actually we are at the cusp of things changing and often, it takes a little bit and then more sports will come on board.

Daniel Kiernan  43:30

So another quote of yours from somewhere, I think I saw. I actually think I saw it from an article you did in The Guardian. I think it might have been the headline, actually. But how long until we see this thrilling spectacle not as a women's sport, but simply sport.

Sue Anstiss  43:51

If it was in The Guardian it probably wasn't my headline, someone probably wrote that headline on the basis of my article. Yeah. And it's like, well, we will we ever I think for some sports, we absolutely will. And I do think I guess bring it back to tennis and I think about those Olympic sports and, you know, swimming and track and field and triathlon, where actually we just go and watch the sport because it is just great sport, whether it's men or female. So I think that the challenge there is in those really inherently male sports of the team sport so football, the world's largest sport, you know, the challenge we have there with cricket and rugby, and those are where they become just bought rather than men's or women's. And I do think as simple as a bit of a challenge isn't there like I'm, I come and talk to people. I'm the specialist in women's sport. But Blimey, there's an awful lot of sport out there. You wouldn't expect a man to come on and know everything about all sport, but I come and talk in this generalist term about women's sport. I don't want to do that. As you say, you hope for the day when it is just sport and there are some women to taking part in it too.

Daniel Kiernan  44:53

Yeah, because even we would and I think you said in that article and I completely agree with this by calling tennis tennis. And women's tennis, women's tennis or by calling Chelsea and yeah. And then the Lionesses you I think you mentioned in the article as well. It's exactly right. And if you will, we'll even go around before every grand slam our marketing team will will go around the to boys and girls and say they might let this remember a year ago they said who's gonna win who's gonna win Wimbledon and even actually that a lot of the girls were saying Novak Djokovic, it's like the third like that thirst it's such a you know, so I I agree with you because again, what you said in that article was if you call it football, there doesn't need to be a differentiation because there's there's different forms of football. But by calling it men's football or women's football, it seems like it seems like a better place.

Sue Anstiss  45:57

It's not ideal but it's where we need to be World Rugby did try for a while they got rid of the gender allocation as they just had the World Cup but they found even after two cycles and people were still talking about the next World Cup in 2027 It's actually know that it's the Women's World Cup 2025 So now they brought back in again to differentiate men's and women's so I do feel you know, we're never gonna have someone on BBC Radio talking about Manchester City men's they will still talk about Man City and Man City women. But but but actually that is needed that that differentiation I heard something in the summer because obviously they had the fantastic the ECB had Ashes to Ashes like the two championships happening alongside each other not exactly in the same place in Australia. But someone talked to me about the Washes What do you think that the Washes, That the W Ashes are gonna? Are we gonna call it the mashes? Is it the Men's Ashes mosh pit? It says a ridiculous isn't it? But I think that placing a W for some people. That's it's really uncomfortably so W series WNBA WNFL. But actually, we can sometimes we do need that because that it needs to stand apart. Otherwise, people will always assume when we talk about Chelsea or Arsenal, or Newcastle that we're talking about the men's team rather than the women. So yeah, it's not always black and white.

Daniel Kiernan  47:12

I like what you did the Newcastle and then you went black and white. Very clever. Very clever. And you're gonna say you didn't mean it? I know. That was all planned. In terms in terms of the future, yeah. So what's, what's next? What needs to happen? What? What are the messages to someone like myself, you know, how, how can I play my role day to day in empowering women in sport?

Sue Anstiss  47:45

I think keep doing what you're doing. I think you're doing a good job. You know, anyone I think there's definitely an element of not always berating and criticizing. I think there are some amazing men and amazing organizations trying to do the best that they can do. So I think that we should celebrate that also, I do feel as we as more funding comes in, and we're able to demonstrate, you know, sadly, whether you like it or not such a capitalist, we live in a capitalist society and sport very much is in that space, too. So So actually, the investment coming in, we're seeing the growth as women as people make more money from women's sport in the way they have men's, I think that that will change that's not necessarily a good thing. And there is the whole question of whether women's sport should be trying to emulate and mirror men's or whether we can go on a different path, and not have to do everything in the way that men's sport has, because it hasn't done it perfectly, in many cases to so the chance for women's sport to do it, differently and better. But in terms of my I guess it is just having an open mind and taking a moment to think about whether that is around language, whether it is around how you're describing things whether and sometimes it is just needing to be prompted or to think so just as again, I started when we started really I don't think people are doing it from a malicious perspective. I think it's just what's always been that sports traditional. That's the way we've referred to sport or teams or the language that we've used. I think it is just people being a little bit more conscious about the way we talk about sport and the way we enable women and girls to access it equally.

Daniel Kiernan  49:13

And what about the future for you we've had books Netflix shows podcasts journalism what's what's next for you?

Sue Anstiss  49:24

Yeah, more of the same or the same that would be support collective continues to grow as we've got 7000 Women now that are part of a free community for all women working across sport and that's been amazing to see that grow and I think it will just continue to get bigger and do more which has been amazing. I'm making another I just finished another documentary with a rugby player who had a baby in July and came back to play in their premiership women's rugby in November so we're out shopping that around for a home so hopefully coming to a screen near you soon. Yeah, and other got other books in mind too. But yeah, really enjoying it's an exciting space to be in at an exciting time as well to be helping to be a small part of kind of driving that change. It's a great place to be.

Daniel Kiernan  50:05

Well, you do an amazing job Sue and before we jump into our quickfire round, which is our Control the Controllables tradition, I just want to say yeah, big A big thank you one for coming on. And two for driving this change as well. You know, I think it's we need people like you that are trailblazing I know you. You talk about people that are trailblazing they come on to your podcast. But you are absolutely trailblazing with with this subject. And it's massively important for all of us to jump on board, you know, and go along with it. So big well done to you.

Sue Anstiss  50:40

Thank you, Dan. Thank you.

Daniel Kiernan  50:43

Are you ready quickfire round? It's it's slightly different than what the listeners that are used to they're used to the certain questions. I've changed the questions a little bit, but the first question, do you play tennis?

Sue Anstiss  50:58

No, but I'm about to start playing padel or pickleball so that that's in my I don't know. That's in my next few months ahead. They've both approached me and I'm gonna go and try both.

Daniel Kiernan  51:09

You can't be saying that on a tennis podcast. Do you watch tennis?

Sue Anstiss  51:18

I do watch I watch Wimbledon and I watched the Open the I've obviously watched, can't remember the name of the Netflix show now?

Daniel Kiernan  51:27

Break Point. What did you think of it? Honestly?

Sue Anstiss  51:33

It was disappointing. Not as good as I'd like, I enjoyed it. Watch them all because I will I ever watched him in sports documentaries. But they weren't as good as I wanted them to be.

Daniel Kiernan  51:42

I haven't even watched the second series. And I love tennis. Yeah, and everything about tennis. And it's not been a conscious decision but I haven't so that that I think says it all for me a little bit you know it hasn't it hasn't brought me in. So forehand or backhand.

Sue Anstiss  52:02

Backhand

Daniel Kiernan  52:04

Serve or return.

Sue Anstiss  52:06

My serev's pretty crap so that will be return.

Daniel Kiernan  52:09

And who would be your ideal doubles partner?

Sue Anstiss  52:14

Andy Murray.

Daniel Kiernan  52:15

What's one thing that tennis could do to empower women more?

Sue Anstiss  52:21

Not make them play in dresses and skirts

Daniel Kiernan  52:24

This is an interesting one than this I completely hold my hands up on this and please be brutally honest, we've had 220 episodes of Control the Controllables nowhere near a high enough percentage of females I have found it challenging to especially tennis players actually to access them. You know I I've equally equally asked as many females as males to come on. I've what I've found is something like a Cameron Norrie, has come on to the show, Cameron Norrie was top 10 in the world at the time, 18 hours before he played a match at the US Open. Whereas someone 250 in the world on the women's side has told me to speak to their agent that it's been I've found some some barriers in that. What could we do better to attract women onto the podcast?

Sue Anstiss  53:22

Well, I was invited on by a woman to your podcast. So I wonder whether you need to use more women to help you to access women? I do. I do feel like what you're saying is not just around podcast, it's getting women on panels, women as judges, women to speak to you. So I think women don't step forward don't have the confidence in the way that men are happy to talk about everything, even if the knowledge or the expertise, big generalization. But we do find that, you know, men applying for jobs when they don't necessarily have the skills and women won't do unless they have them all. So I think that is inherent. And that isn't about the different genetic differences in men and women. It's what we've been socialized to believe about ourselves and ourselves in the working environment. So I would definitely say perhaps a different approach or or utilizing women utilizing the guest. You've got to bring other guests on.

Daniel Kiernan  54:10

You'll see that question in a minute. Oh, it's always our last question. But what what does control the controllables mean to you?

Sue Anstiss  54:19

Yeah, I guess it is almost being accepting that you can't control it all and celebrating the things that you can do. I think that I'm old enough now to know that that's the case. And yeah, that for me is about the recognizing it's not all in control.

Daniel Kiernan  54:36

As ever our last question on the podcast, but before you answer this you must know the small print means that you are the person who passes the baton. Who should our next guest be on Control the Controllables

Sue Anstiss  54:53

Let me think I think somebody amazing is for someone like a Catherine Granger or Sally Mundy and the UK Sport or somebody that's really at the top end of British sport, are gonna have a look at my black book and come back to you with some recommendations.

Daniel Kiernan  55:09

It's your, it's your choice. And all we ask is that you that you set it up, that's all we ask.

Sue Anstiss  55:14

I love that. That's a really good approach is now I'm gonna try that on my podcasts in the future. Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  55:19

It's a great way to work for you. I'm still waiting for Andy Murray to get Daniil Medvedev on. If you come across mr. Murray, he's still He still owes me a pass of the baton. Sue, you've been a star. Thank you so much for giving your time up. And we will, yeah, we'll be in touch for sure. Because I love everything that you're doing. Thank you. Lovely, thank you so much. And a big thank you to sue, for jumping on the podcast, I appreciate just how busy someone like Sue is. So for her to give her time up is an asset to Control the Controllables. And for all of you listening a big, big heartfelt thank you Sue, and if you want to get more information on Sue. And as I said at the start of the show, you know, Sue has her own podcast. It's fantastic, fantastic conversations that are happening on Game Changers. So check that out, check out the Netflix show Game On and have a look into Fearless Women, which is her not for profit networking, for women in sport. And for anyone that is having challenges any women that are out there that are haven't challenges in sport, that are coming across barriers, the more that we talk and we speak to like minded people to us, the better. So you know, take advantage take advantage of what Sue was set up there. And yeah, we keep we keep moving forward, you know, definitely in the world of tennis. As we said at the start, we are doing a better job than in most sports, but there's still a long way to go. By having these conversations by continuing to stay aware of our situations. It can only be a good thing and, and talking of awareness talking about awareness. Anyone that missed it in the last episode, we have an incredibly exciting. Yeah, I guess an exciting addition to the podcast on April the 19th. In London, you have a chance to come and meet us and our amazing panelists and ask your questions direct to myself to Vicki and to the panelists that we're going to have in place as we start to bring an awareness to the realities of what is happening in our sport, you know, and there's very much a big shake up happening in tennis right now. On the ground tea and Indian Wells and having conversations whether it's Mark Pesci, whether it's Liam broady, whether it's Eric Buddha RAC, who is in charge at the US Open, and we want to bring that to you, we want to bring that discussion to you. We're going to have a great night, we're going to discuss it with the panelists, we're going to open up opportunities for you to get involved in that conversation as well. There's going to be enough tickets for 70 of you to come and join us in London, April the 19th. If you can't make it to the venue itself, we're also going to open up the opportunity for you to jump on the live stream and join us and for you to be able to still get involved in that conversation. You'll be able to see on our social media over the next few days. I hopefully within the show notes as well as the opportunity going to be opening up we're going to be releasing the tickets, make sure you fast you don't want to miss out there's only going to be 7070 in person tickets available. And I look forward to meeting many of you that I haven't met before on April, the 19th. That's all we have for now. We have many many more fantastic, thought provoking guests that are coming up for you in the coming weeks. But I'm off off to prepare Gabi dobrowski and Aaron Ratliff as they start their campaign here in Indian Wells tomorrow. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan, and we are Control the Controllables