Olivia Nicholls: A Different Route to Success in Tennis

DISCLAIMER: Please note we use a transcription service, so there may be some errors in the following transcription of this episode. If you can, please refer to the audio for exact quotations.

Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 217, of Control the Controllables. And whether you are new to the podcast or you are someone that has been listening for the last four years, I have to start today, I can't wait to tell you with the exciting news that Control the Controllables is going live. We're going in person, we're doing our first live show. Now, if you have a pen, if not, remember this date, April 19th, 2024. And we're going to be coming to London. But fear not, if you cannot make your way all the way to London, or you are just not in the UK at that time. We are also going to be offering the ability to streaming live with us in our live show. And you ask what is this live show, what are we going to be doing? Well, we're going to be us we're going to be control the controllables. And we're going to bring an amazing panel to you. And the topic is going to be 'The Big Tennis Shake Up': Is The New Elite Tennis Tour Good for Tennis. And we are going to have so many guests that are coming on, we've got a few surprises up our sleeve as well, for different people to be part of this, the next stage the next chapter of Control the Controllables. And you'll be hearing lots about that in the coming weeks. But get your tickets because there's only going to be 60 to 70 Tickets available in person. And then obviously as many as possible online. So look out for that and get your tickets fast. And I hope to meet some of you in person in the very near future. Now as for our show today, we have the amazing Olivia Nichols now some of you might remember Alfie Hewett who was on the show a few months ago, he went to school with Olivia and he recommended her further podcast. And she comes on and she tells her story. It's not a typical tennis story. It's some fun, you know, she didn't have ambition to be a tennis player. But here she is. She's a top 100 WTA doubles player, she's been as high as 59. And high north Olivia has gained pretty well she's gonna go higher. You know, this girl can seriously play. And she is a fantastic, fantastic personality for British tennis to have. So sit back, you're gonna take loads from this story, and I'm gonna pass you over to Olivia Nicholls. So Olivia Nicholls a big welcome to Control the Controllables how're you doing?

Olivia Nicholls  02:50

I'm good. Thanks, Dan. Thanks for having me on.

Daniel Kiernan  02:52

No, it's It's an absolute pleasure and your your second appearance, but you are you don't have the crew around you this time. So I can I can delve into a little bit more than I was last time.

Olivia Nicholls  03:05

Yeah, you can get stuck in

Daniel Kiernan  03:07

a big well done on your starting, you know, winning, winning a tournament with with Beth Beth Greer in in Portugal at the start of the year. And then. And then you managed to delve into 250, I believe. And I guess my first question, Olivia is just told them and how is that for the you know, the players that are playing the Australian Open? And then it's pretty clear what their tournament scheduling is, you know, the tournaments are kind of written out for them. But as you are grasping for those ranking points to get to that point, you know, what, how does that look, I guess to somebody listening, give us give us the realities of how that how that looks and how you're jumping from continent to continent and trying to find the opportunities to play or waiting to see the cuts that are coming out finding partners at the last minute, there's a lot more to it than maybe meets the eye.

Olivia Nicholls  04:06

Yeah, I mean, towards the back end of last year, I think I knew that I wasn't going to quite make the cut for Australia. So I made the decision to play late in the year. And yeah, decided I was going to do my preseason in January when everyone else was was in Australia. Yeah, so ended up playing, as you say jumping continent to continent, playing an indoor hardcore tournament in Andorra, followed by outdoor hard in Dubai, followed by indoor hard in France to finish the year so not easy changing, you know, conditions and stuff like that. But as you say, when you're not sure of your tournament schedule and what you're going to be making cuts for etc. You kind of just gotta take the chances and opportunities when you get them

Daniel Kiernan  04:50

and how do you deal or in that situation where we're going right? The obviously spending some decent amount of money to go somewhere like Dubai, you know, You're, there's an investment that's gone into it. You're you're thinking, right? Well, if I can make final of this event, maybe it covers me, it certainly gives me the ranking points I need. I guess it could paralyze us, right? If we're starting to overthink, we all know that outcome focus doesn't necessarily work in this sport. So how are you able to deal with those demons that come along? With with with that with being desperate well not desperate, but having the obsession of trying to get the ranking up? And also the financial gain as well?

Olivia Nicholls  05:37

Well, I don't think originally, I planned to go to Dubai. But the opportunity came for me to play with Heather. And obviously, like, great partner, great person. And yeah, that was just one that I couldn't turn down. So we ended up having a really good week there. And we had a lot of fun off the court as well. So yeah, that is probably one huge, hugely important thing is if you can make sure that you're switching off around the actual tennis time, then you're probably more likely to do better in your matches and on court anyway. Yes. So that's what happened at the end of last year.

Daniel Kiernan  06:14

But if I look at that, though, let's take that example. Because I think this is important for people to understand. I want people to understand the realities. Not only is it difficult that you're traveling so much, but how do you have a normal life? Because I guess how long in advance of Dubai, Did you make the decision that you're going to Dubai?

Olivia Nicholls  06:34

Actually that one I had a bit of time because yeah, Heather said she was definitely going to finish her year there. And she wanted to play doubles. And yeah, that one was actually locked in pretty early. It was the ones around it that I wasn't sure about. But yeah, sometimes it can be so last minute, especially with ranking cuts. You know, you don't know if you're gonna be playing a 250. Or you might have an ITF as a backup, and it could be as late as the Saturday two days before the tournament starts. So yeah, is I mean, it is tough to have in inverted commas in normal life, because everything is so last minute, but I think as tennis players, that becomes the norm almost like we always find it weird how, you know, my friends in London, their diaries are, you know, chokker for the next four weekends, because they've got everything planned out, and we're like, oh, really like everything. They're the strange ones, not us.

Daniel Kiernan  07:33

And do you book your flights? Or do you have a travel agent that helps?

07:36

Oh, no, I do it all myself. I'm pretty savvy with I think like on the whole, like good at finding cheap flights. So I haven't got many air miles, I think because I'm always getting the budget ones.

Daniel Kiernan  07:50

Give us the best bit of advice for last minute bookings of flights?

07:56

Well, I mean, if you don't have Skyscanner, are you even a tennis player? That would be my main one. Me and Lissey had a really good one last year coming back from Guadalajara. We were really struggling to get a flight back and ended up on a 300 pound TUI flight from Cancun full of holidaymakers which was

Daniel Kiernan  08:19

I was on the same one. I was when I was the Cancun for the WTA finals. I was on that flight.

08:28

So yeah, that was an interesting one. But we were happy because yeah, last minute and quite cheap. So we'll take it.

Daniel Kiernan  08:34

Well, I reckon, he's not on this call to defend himself, but I'm going to big him up Harry Heliovaara, who I was working with last year who anyone that knows Harry in the world of tennis, he wanted to be a pilot he is obsessed with with planes, pilots, like he will Yeah, he I'll let Harry defend himself on that. But let's just say he's a big plane lover. And not only that, he is the master at finding flights. So what he does, he actually never actually seems to have a flight going to the final destination that he wants to so let's say he wants to get back to he wants to get back to Helsinki. He will have a flight that is on its way to St. Petersburg, Russia. And then he in that to cheaper he finds a cheaper way of doing that. And then he jumps out at Helsinki. So like he's always he's, I think Skyscanner isn't isn't up to speed with that. Actually, I think there is we can maybe set you up with a drop Harri a message. I reckon you can save a few more pennies, but like I like looking at my ticket, alright. Malaga then. Latvia and I'll be like all right, cool. But he did just fine. Just get off and just get off in Malaga. I do it. I do it all the time. It's 150 euros cheaper. So he's he's got the got the system. Absolutely absolutely down. So he is the man to talk to. But Livvy me I want to I want to jump in because then you're I don't know your story and I'm looking forward to hearing a bit more. I do know you went to school school with Alfie Hewett. And obviously, Alfie put you forward for this. I, I also know that you weren't the the journey that we often see, you know, people often look at that journey and go, Oh, my goodness, you played all of those tournaments and top 10 of the World Juniors and then went on to do this. And I think that is that's a great story to hear. And before I hear your story, do you think because of that, you then have a bit of a different approach now to your professional career, because you may be not ground down by the years and years and years of traveling and, you know, trying to desperation for ITF points and Tennis Europe points and the kind of typical journey that juniors have.

10:56

Yeah, definitely. I didn't play one Junior ITF. Wow. So yeah, and to be honest with you is never even in the plan, or I didn't have aspirations to be a professional tennis player when I was young. So I think in that respect, my journey was very different. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  11:29

But I bet you had a parent who was a tennis coach, or you live near a local tennis club, because everybody does.

11:36

Yeah, so I was really fortunate. As you say, I went to the same school as Alfie. In Acle, which is near Norwich, my mum was the head coach at Acle Tennis Club, which was literally a stone's throw from our house. So yeah, I would go down there a lot with her just do baskets, playing a lot of outdoor tennis. And yeah, that was where a lot of the hard yards were done for me. Yeah, and I went to school right the way through to Year 11. I did all my GCSEs. I then went on to Sixth Form College to get my A levels because the big thing for me was getting to Loughborough University. I just had my heart set on going there. So yeah, my goal was to get the A levels I needed to get into Loughborough University, which I did. And then that was really the place where my tennis progressed, I would say.

Daniel Kiernan  12:34

So. So when you say you didn't have the, the aspirations, and you didn't play an ITF, Junior year event? Okay, I can, I can, I can see that. But your mom's a head coach, at a club. How much tennis were you playing? And I guess, give me a bit more of a feel like in terms of junior wise, well, you know, ranked within the country ranked within the county, you know, where you're traveling around the country playing tournaments, give give me a little bit more feel of that.

13:05

So I played a fair amount, like, of course, I played a fair amount like all of the my summer holidays, I was spend playing the grass court tournaments that were sort of like grade threes, local to East Anglia. So Felixston, Frinton, Cromer, all of these kinds of tournaments. But it was more of a kind of fun, sociable feel. Ranking wise, I think I did get to like top 20 in under 16, under eighteens. And I would play like national events, but I was certainly not playing and putting in the hours that the other girls were. And I didn't play nationals. I played maybe once or twice, but we tend to go on holiday that week, because it was the last week of the summer holidays. And we'd we'd go on holiday as a family. So I would play the whole of the summer holidays, but maybe not the level that my coach at the time would have liked. Because it was maybe the kind of easy option, local option. But you know, I enjoyed it. I was traveling with my best friend, and both our brothers and that was our summer holidays. And we had a great time.

Daniel Kiernan  14:24

So how did you how did you avoid the spider's web? That is the world of tennis or the or British tennis, that kind of grass people and and all of a sudden you start comparing yourself and comparing ratings and rankings and possibilities and who's doing this and what who's going to do that and who's getting this funding? Did did that pass you by? Or were you just able to allow it to wash over you?

Olivia Nicholls  14:50

I think I had quite a mature head on me when I was young. And yeah, I didn't get bogged down with all that stuff. Um, I like to other sports, I did other things. So like tennis wasn't everything. Education was really important. Worked hard at school, maybe tennis wasn't everything. And I think my parents probably handled it pretty well as well, like they were supportive. But I think they just wanted me to stay in the game as long as possible. You know, there's such a high dropout rate in teenage girls, I think, more than anything, they probably just wanted me to keep playing to be active to keep playing the sport. And yeah, so maybe I just didn't let it get too intense. And my parents didn't allow it to get too intense, because I think probably around like 15 1617 I wasn't enjoying it as much because of all of the aggro with, you know, parents and everything that you know, cheating and the environment, you'll have seen it firsthand. It's not the nicest environment Junior Tennis. So I kind of took a back step for maybe didn't compete as much didn't play as much. But then when I went to university, the age of 18 got really stuck in again, and really pushed on from there. So I think I was lucky in some ways with my journey through my teens, because I think I could have easily dropped out. Had it have got too intense.

Daniel Kiernan  16:17

And now you know what, you know? Yeah, 28 years old, I believe now. So you've been a nine? Nine? Okay, so you've been? You've been out of juniors for 11 years? 11 years since you went to libre. Would you do anything different? In your junior days? When everything up? Or? Or do you believe that? You and your parents got it? Right?

Olivia Nicholls  16:46

I think for me personally, it probably was the right way. Because I think I could have easily hung up my rackets. If not, I think if it had got too intense, too young, I could have called it a day. I think that being said, you know, you've got girls that have done the journey differently, who've probably banked a lot more hours on court. And maybe that's beneficial now. Like, I think I have a generally like a good feel for the ball and stuff like this, but maybe didn't bank those hours that a lot of girls did younger age. So maybe that part was missing. But I certainly wouldn't change my journey.

Daniel Kiernan  17:25

Yeah. And then and then one of the things I want them to jump into, because we've talked a lot on this podcast about US university, you know, obviously, we're seeing now Australian Open, try and get the stats exactly right. But there was really there was 90 males, singles players, in the in demand draw the Australian Open, there was seven women's singles players, which is fantastic. Because we haven't seen those numbers before. There was 44, men's college US college players in the main draw of the doubles at the Australian Open. And there was 16 in the main draw of the women's and those figures have even gone up since US Open 2023. So that's been like, that's a legit pathway, you know, whichever anybody can argue it. Now that they can now pay the athletes, this NIL that they've got in place, it is a legit pathway to being a professional tennis player. Now, when we talk about UK uni, which we've had Ewan McGuiness, come on. My last guest was Colin Fleming who came through the University of Stirling, we do have some stories, but there's not as many it's not kind of the path hasn't been led, as greatly. So my question was going to be why UK university or the US university, but it seems like that was quite an early decision that you had made due to the course that you wanted to take at Loughborough.

18:55

Yeah, I think, not only the course, but also the fact I was a bit of a home bird, to be honest, at that age, I don't think I ever looked into America, because that was just too much of a big move for me at that age. I grew up in, you know, small village had, you know, family friends that I was really close to, and I just wasn't ready to make, to do that. At that age. I wanted to have the comfort of knowing that I could be three hours from home if I wanted to go home. So America was never really on the cards for me. That being said, I do think there's a lot of positives to going to America. It's very different to the the English system. I think the kind of team aspect and the level of matches that you're getting is I would probably say higher in the States, especially in the division one or the top division. Yeah, for sure that the level and the amount of matches you're getting is greater but I think where the British university is good is that and this is where it was big for me was I was exposed to playing ITFs. Yeah, all of the domestic ITFs in that first and second year and doing well in like 15 to 25s. And then that was a real kind of moment for me to realize that actually oh, you know, maybe I'm maybe I'm good enough to go pro and give this a crack because I think if I had gone to American uni, I would have just been surrounded by so many great players that I might not have even considered that I was good enough to go pro, whereas to actually be winning pro tournaments, whilst I was still at uni, was like, Okay, maybe, maybe I should be considering this as a as a career.

Daniel Kiernan  20:45

Yeah, and that's and I don't know if you remember this, but I certainly remember seeing you play with Beth somewhere. And I,

20:53

It was at Bath. I remember having the conversation with you on the balcony.

Daniel Kiernan  20:56

Right, so there was and I remember watching you. And now that I know your story. I'm amazed how good you were. Because, because, because you massively massively stood out to me. And if that was that would have been at the time where probably you were only a couple of years into university. So you kind of hadn't done hadn't done the junior and I was absolutely convinced. I think I told you this when I was convinced that you were a top 100 if not higher doubles player, which well done. You've proven me right. Thank you. We've been as high as 59. But I'm also convinced that you're a top 50, top 40, top 30 doubles player. So you're not. So you now need to go and prove me right on that as well. When you do, we're gonna get you get you back on the podcast. But the thing I just want to say on that Olivia is, it seems to me like the UK university system, because there will be someone listening to this that, you know, looking in, and I think people absolutely need to have their eyes open. But not just, I'm a big believer of US college, but it's not right for everybody. You know, and I think and I think we got to be a little bit careful, actually, it's getting a little saturated. So there's a lot of players that maybe don't quite have the level that are just gonna, that's what I have to do, because that's what this player did. And that's what that player did. But yeah, but it might not be for you. But I just I get the feeling and I haven't been through it myself. But I get the feeling that UK university for it to work, you have to be quite intrinsically motivated to make it happen. Because the support systems aren't quite as strong. The budgets aren't as big. The coaching teams aren't as big, you know, the practices a little bit more free to but but if you have that intrinsic motivation, as we've seen with yourself, Colin Fleming, Jonny O'Mara, you know, some players that jumped to mind, there is some real opportunities there as well.

22:55

Yeah, I think that's completely fair. From what I've seen, when you go to American uni, there is a lot of kind of pressures to, you know, be at this many training sessions. And this fitness session at this time. It is certainly more relaxed, or it was when I was at Loughborough. And it's kind of coming off your own back. And, you know, the opportunity is there, the trainings there if you want to, but if you if you can't be bothered to get up, you know, get out of bed for 7am training, you know, that they probably don't have the depth of player to kick you off the team, because ultimately, they need to put four players out for a BUCS match on Wednesday. So it certainly

Daniel Kiernan  23:34

Does anyone ever train on a Thursday, after Thursday training? I mean,  Wednesday nights, Thursday doesn't happen.

Olivia Nicholls  23:44

I mean, yeah, I can come on here and say how intrinsically motivated I am and all of this, but I certainly wasn't training on a Thursday morning when I was at university. That's for sure.

Daniel Kiernan  23:55

That's just that's just a no go. So that brings me into the next bit because as you then and you're winning those events in university, which gives you that feeling which which we all need, you know, that feeling of belief, that feeling of, of confidence that we can that we can do something. I've got a theory that when people and I'll share a little story I remember walking into Wimbledon with Liam Brody and Lloyd Glasspool and Liam had obviously been to three I don't think he ever made one and I'm doing you a disservice maybe Broads if you were but he was right at the top of the junior game. Lloyd never really played many ITFs so I think he was like 1000 And as we walked in, I think it was Kyrgios was shouting Broads, how're you doing you probably Fing this and fing that and then Dominic Thiem was like, and I think he just made final a French Open and he was like, hey, broads, you know, how's things I remember seeing Lloyd kind of just walking in. And Lloyd was definitely experiencing a bit of imposter syndrome, you know, walking into that into those events. And I guess, that's my theory that that sense of belonging is a massive part of tennis, you know, when we might have all the same skill sets, we might have ever everything, but if we don't feel like we belong, or we have a bit of imposter syndrome, it's hard to bring out performances that we're capable of. So you when I take your story, I guess you're a prime candidate for someone who would experience that, you know, because you didn't have a necessarily a name in the country, nevermind in the world, in the world of tennis. So all of these new experiences and then playing your first WTA events and then playing your first grand slams. Have you experienced impostor syndrome? And and how have you been able to overcome that, to start feeling like you do belong at those levels?

Olivia Nicholls  26:05

Without a doubt, I remember my first obviously, I was in Lyon in 2022, I think. And we actually out of nowhere made final. So it was a crazy week. And I remember the supervisor coming up to us and being like, look, I'm really sorry, but because of the way the schedule is gone. You're gonna have to wait two days to play the final. And I just had a massive grin on my face, because I was I was just so happy to be at the WTA. Yeah, I was like, this is literally incredible. I was like, I get two more days of experiencing this amazing event. I was beaming. And I was like, Don't worry, not a problem. But yeah, I mean, the final big stage, and we played Siegmund Zvonareva. I mean, for me, like, I'm pretty sure I'd watched Zvonereva in the Wimbledon finals however many years ago. So without a doubt, experienced it there. But I guess the more you're exposed to playing WTA is playing the slams. I think that's definitely a thing of the past now.

Daniel Kiernan  27:09

That's good. And that, and that's great. And that, but that also shows the importance of giving it a go over a period of time as well. You know, like, you've got the experience under your belt now. And I think so many players. Again, I hate it when players say I'm just gonna give it a year, it's gonna give it a year to see. And what can really happen in a year, you know, we're kind of throwing a Hail Mary a little bit. So the fact that you you've, you've put your time in, but tell me I tell, tell that tell the listener, you've been as high as 59, you've dropped slightly outside of 100. Now, but you're in that kind of that space? What is the difference between that, and the next level that you want to be at, you know, playing regular slams, being seeded in slams? What's the difference from a, from a tennis perspective, if you don't mind sharing? If you have have something on that? But then sec, but then secondly, the ranking system of WTA, which is what we're talking about, what are the challenges of that system in order to accrue the right amount of points to move from, what seems close? Right, 60 seems pretty close. But actually, we know 60 to 30, where you started to get into all of the events is actually a lot further away than a lot of people realize as well.

Olivia Nicholls  28:40

Yeah, I mean, I'll start with the first bit, I think like level wise, I've actually got a really good example of that, because I've literally just come off the back of playing a 75, followed by a 500. And we talk a lot about, you know, the value of matches, which I completely agree with, I got four, you know, four matches in Portugal, which was brilliant, and came away with a title. But then to go from that to a 500 to play an established top 50 team. You know, it was like, we were suffocated from point one, you know, there's no letup we were being hit from point one, you're getting punished for lack of surf accuracy, predictability, there's so much doubt created from the other side of the net with their movement, their plays, the amount of space they're allowing you to hit into. There's no question that it's very noticeable when you go from just outside top 100 level to team that is in the top 50. And then in terms of the sort of point structure and opportunity and making that breakthrough, I don't know how much you've seen about how they've changed the point structure even more this year, but it's certainly kind of top heavy. And well, for a start, there's not that many opportunities at a lower level, or sort of at the level that I'm at right now. It's it's almost like you're either playing 75k Or you're playing Abu Dhabi, Doha, Dubai, or whatever the 500, 1000s that are coming up

Daniel Kiernan  30:10

To win a match in a WTA 500 event? How many points do you get?

Olivia Nicholls  30:15

Ithink it's over 100. Now, I think it's just over 100.

Daniel Kiernan  30:19

So let's say 105. To, to win, to win the tournament at the 75k? How many points do you get?

Olivia Nicholls  30:28

75 Now, they've matched it. So, yeah, not easy.

Daniel Kiernan  30:33

So what what is this? What does that reality look like for you your ranking?

Olivia Nicholls  30:40

Well, I don't think I moved after winning. So I'm currently 105 or something like that just outside 100. And realistically, I mean, I don't like to sort of put pressure on or look at points and all of this. But I think you know, I know that you need a good run at least in a 250, or win a round or two at a 500 to be making some decent progress.

Daniel Kiernan  31:05

And the five hundreds, what percentage of five hundreds at your ranking? Would you get in if you're playing with somebody similar ranking?

Olivia Nicholls  31:14

Not many. I think last year, obviously I was ranked a lot higher was about 65, or 70. Only got into one. So yeah, I was kind of lucky to get in this week. But then for the rest of the year, I won't, I probably won't get into 500 unless I have a good one and make one at the end of the year. But the opportunities are sparse, because you need to be top 55 I'd say to get in. So 110 combined, probably.

Daniel Kiernan  31:43

So how do you so because also the money isn't great. But those levels we know that we know that people say in singles at those levels, but doubles is probably a 10th of that. So how does someone like you keep going?

Olivia Nicholls  31:59

I mean, I was lucky 22 and 23. I played all of the slams, played Billie Jean King Cup, which was a decent paycheck, especially when we made semi finals. And yeah, had a run in the mix at Wimbledon. So yeah, I mean, I've actually done pretty well, to be honest, I'd say in the last couple of years financially, but maybe at the slightly lower ranking of like 130, or, yeah, you're struggling a little bit more for sure.

Daniel Kiernan  32:31

But that's also you being British, though, isn't it that you've been in a Grand Slam nation? You know, so yeah, you get those opportunities, obviously. Billie Jean King Cup, you've earnt, but again, that's not always going to happen in every single country, and maybe not all countries are paying that as well. Which then brings me on to the next bit, which is we talk about the importance of support team, you know, and like we're given that advice all the time, right. You know, we've been running a female empowerment campaign, and we've been speaking to lots of lots of different women out there lots of different tennis players, coaches. And and that's one of the biggest bits of advice that's given is, get the right team around you. And I find myself giving that advice as well just make sure you've got good people around you people that care people that know what they're talking about. But that also costs money to have the right people around you, you know, so. So it's not quite as simple as that a reality that not everybody quite understand. So how, how have you been able to manage that? Are you Are you someone that's been fortunate in some ways, and you've been able to get that team around you? Or is that something that you don't always have and something that you crave? Or is that something that you think well screw that on my own? And I can I can, I can push through and I can I can make this work?

Olivia Nicholls  33:59

No, I think I've been very lucky with the team that I've had around me. I've worked with Tom Kiesel, who was the coach at Loughborough ever since I was there, and I'm still working with him now. And yeah, I have to say that he goes above and beyond to support me and does countless hours of work that I don't pay him for basically, any opportunity for him to be able to watch my matches and give me feedback he will do. Yeah, it's a shame he can't travel with me a little bit more, because you still heads up the program at Loughborough. But yeah, I'm just extremely lucky to have him as coach still going up there. Kind of for a few days, every month, I'd say. And he still does a lot of work with me remotely. So yeah, and all of the grass court season he'll do with me as well. So very lucky to have him and then working at NTC with Craig Veal as well, who's obviously very experienced and is a very good coach. He worked with Alexa, Grouchi. And he's currently working with Jody barage, and Lily, my Zacky as well. So he's very good coach and good person to have on board. So I'm very lucky with my coaching team. And then Laura Dagmann, who's a good friend of mine does my fitness as well. So, I'm, yeah, I'm more than happy and very fortunate to have such great coaches, but also great people around me.

Daniel Kiernan  35:32

The people can't see me, but that's me tipping my hat to Tom, because I think that's, again, it's a conversation I've had with lots of people on this podcast. It is a challenge. It's a massive challenge. But I also think people cry the finance challenge too much at times, but you know, it because I do think if you are a good person like yourself, who is showing, showing not not just the potential, but showing that you've got the skills, performer wise, you've got the determination to have success, then then there is a lot of good people out there that will take chances on players. And I know that's, that's a little bit too, idyllic in concept, you know, and it's not always it's not always the case. But people like Tom that are giving their time up and given the extra and spending the time it goes so far. I was once upon a time a player, you know, and I've still fortunately got Michael John Willis, who I still look at him look at him as my coach and the countless hours and time and care and you know, all of those things go such a such a long way. So we have to I'm pleased that Tom's got a shout out and we literally give him give him a big shout out as well. And I also think, at this point as well, we need to shout out British tennis as well. And the LTA who come in for a hard time as well, you know about providing that that service. And again, Craig Veals, being on the on the pod before Craig's a great, great guy, great, great coach as well. But that that resource that's been provided by the tennis federations is massive. And it's, and it's something that not so many nations have the fortune of having as well.

Olivia Nicholls  37:20

Yeah I mean, I was speaking to Elixane Lechemia, who I played with last week, who's a French player, and just kind of discussing the Federations and where they're all training and stuff like that. And people are quite quick to say bad things about the LTA, I think but actually, if you compare it to other nations, you know, we're all there, we're all putting hours in, we're all training together. There's a great vibe now. NTC with all the players, you know, we get good support. I think the tournament bonus scheme is a fantastic initiative that other nations don't do.

Daniel Kiernan  37:56

So for example, tell us more about that.

Olivia Nicholls  37:59

So, I mean, I don't know the ins and outs of the singles bonuses, but for winning the ITF. Last week for the 75. We got a bonus of 500 pounds. Yeah. Which, you know, when you add it up, or add it on to the prize money that you're getting kind of makes it, you know, you've had you've had a decent week's work, shall we say? And, yeah, I think I think it's a good way of doing it, because you're getting rewarded. You know, you're not just being handed the money on a plate, okay, maybe there's other parts of, you know, how they run where they do give sums of money, whatnot. But I think the bonus scheme is a great scheme, because, you know, you've got to go out there and earn it and you're getting rewarded for for winning, which is what it's all about at the end of the day. So yeah, we're lucky to have that.

Daniel Kiernan  38:47

And also, I think the, the respect, the respect level of doubles, in our industry is appalling. It's like, whatever the second class third class citizens, I want to actually get into that in a little bit about on the biggest scale, there just isn't the respect level. So the fact that a baller system like that also takes doubles players into consideration. I think also, the LTA deserves a lot of credit because I think a lot of nations might have a system like that and or the Australian system is currently looking at the British system on that. And I'm a big believer I like incentives and the way that it works were but competitive beings, right, and I think, you know, certainly after a certain age, putting those things out there is a great way to distribute funds. But the other thing they have we've talked about Craig veal. I want to then jump into Louie CK if because Louis is a genius. He's got a CV that's just off the charts. You know, I wouldn't even dare imagine talk about how many grants slam winners. He's been a part of a world number ones and all of these things. But Louise tend to have spent most of his time with male doubles players. And that's I'm of the Louis Cayer book of doubles. You know, I've he's been a mentor to me is, you know, that's the system I've learnt. But then I've been working heavily in women's doubles on the WTA. Now for the last six or seven months, and it's been really interesting for me to see how many of the concepts, the ways transfer, you know, and obviously, it depends a little bit on game style game identity. But for you as a player, and also a forward thinking doubles player, someone who's very good at the net. How much of Louise system do you think is applicable in in the women's game? At the top end?

Olivia Nicholls  40:52

It's a great question, I think, Well, I'll start with myself. And when I was playing with Lissey a lot, there's no question that we were using it. You know, I haven't worked with Louis directly. But Tom did his level five with Louis. So he learned a lot of it through him, we were playing a lot of eye formation, you serve here and I volley here and we know exactly what we're doing every single time. And if we do it, well, it doesn't come back. But in terms of how much it's being used at the top of game, the women's is slightly different, because you do have some set pairs, but there's probably less would you say than the men's? You know, some of the girls like a lot of the girls who don't have a set partners mixing around a lot. So I think it's not used as much for those teams when they're playing with different partners each week. But for the teams that are, yeah, established, I think it's Yeah, is used a lot. But there would also be teams that are effective without using it. There's there's different ways of playing as well, there

Daniel Kiernan  41:57

1. And I think I think what I've seen, actually, I would say, if you're a club player watching doubles, I actually think women's doubles is a lot more exciting. And I also think it's more relevant to what you're what you're learning. And because I think the system, Louis systems, that's absolutely fantastic, which is all built upon providing stress to your opponents, you know, through through the way that you're moving through the positions that you're taking through the players that you're calling from forcing them to play shots, they don't want to play and ultimately, ultimately tennis as a muscle relaxant sport, what I've seen is the ball gets into play a lot more than women's doubles, the server's less dominant, and the return is more dominant. So so if you're serving at 125 miles an hour, and you're hitting your spot with quite vigorous spend into the corner of the box, if the return comes back, it's pretty much going to come back in the middle of the court, and the players just going to knock the volley off. And in actually is quite boring to watch. Actually, if we're being brutally honest, you know, and I've worked in the in the men's doubles game as well, there's obviously a lot of exciting matches as well. But when it's executed, well, it can be quite boring to watch, what I'm seeing is, there's a lot more balls come back in play. And you can't predict the returns as much because the server is not as dominant. So so it's if you miss your spot on the serve, or the server isn't quite hard enough. I'll give an example a body surf and I'm getting a bit technical here. But if we talk about a body serve, at 120 mile an hour on the ad side, into someone's jam them up on the backhand, it's almost impossible that that player is going to go down the line of that return. If you hit a serve at 95 miles an hour into the back end, well actually they can step away from it. And hence, Eva, play a line cross lob, and it becomes a little bit more challenging. So then you have a lot of players, obviously the lobs a lot more prevalent. You know, you mentioned Zvonareva and Siegmund, you must you had a sore neck after playing those guys, because, you know, it's kind of non non stop lobbying. But it's it I found it fascinating and a lot more cat and mouse actually. And then I then I'd realized it's maybe a one actually, I need to sit down with Louis and discuss but I guess I just wondered how much of what you guys have learned is that is that system, and maybe some of the things that you've needed to adapt to suit maybe the pace of the game that the fact that the serves aren't quite as dominant, and the fact that the returns are a little bit more dominant. I think that will be interesting to understand.

Olivia Nicholls  44:52

Yeah, definitely using Louis' system. I think my biggest strength is probably as service partner And from eye formation, like, I feel like if my partner hits their serve spot, that and I touch that ball through, like, I'd like to think that probably nine times out of 10 The point is done. But then, currently, I haven't got a set partner, so I'm having to be a little bit more kind of adaptive and playing off instincts a little bit more, maybe using eye formation less and, and the plays aren't as regimented. You know, you have to play off instincts a little bit more sense. And stuff like that. So yeah, I think naturally, or I kind of got to where to, I was obviously partnering Lissey all of while for two or three years, and we were quite regimented with our plays and patterns, and that was very effective. But now, now I'm mixing partners, maybe maybe the partners I'm playing with don't even know anything, don't have the knowledge that we have. So you do have to be Yeah, do you have to be more adaptive, and yeah, play off instinct a little bit more.

Daniel Kiernan  46:04

How does that process work? You're going you're rocking up to a tournament, you're, you're playing with someone? At what point a deciding who's playing on which side? who's serving first? What you how you're going to play? Are you serving and volleying or you're not serving volleying? Are you using the chip lob? Are you hitting in coming in? What energy do you use hand signals or not? You know, what point are those discussions and things been sorted?

Olivia Nicholls  46:33

him still learning right now. I think generally people know if the girls are a deuce or Ad court player, to be honest, that does seem to be sorted don't actually know about the men's but that seems to be quite set in, you know, you wouldn't play with them because they're an Ad court player. So that's already

Daniel Kiernan  46:55

depends how big their ego is. Because if you speak to a male, who tend to have big egos, and you say, What side do you play? Well, I can play either side when the, a return's a return. I've heard a lot of that in the men's game as well.

Olivia Nicholls  47:11

Well there you go. Doesn't surprise me. But yeah, I mean, it's actually funny, you should bring that up. Because I said to Craig, on court today that I felt my second serve accuracy dropped a little bit because the week with Beth, we were calling first and second serve before we we went up to play in the past have been used to calling second serve after the first serve's missed. And then last week, it was a bit like, sometimes we were calling both, sometimes nothing was being called. And then as a result, my serve accuracy maybe dropped off a little bit. So yeah, you do need to have these conversations and, and maybe I need to write like a tick, like a list of things that I need to tick off that we've discussed. So we know exactly what the plan is.

Daniel Kiernan  47:57

I think the way is, is you have your non negotiable checklist before you decide to play with them. They have, they have to sign the agreement. You know, if you're gonna play with me, you must hit the tee serve on Add unbelievably well at at least 180 kilometers an hour, so that I can come up in I formation and knock the volley off. Otherwise, do not sign here. You know, because that's, that's the number one secret number one secret doubles. Pick the right partner.

Olivia Nicholls  48:28

Yeah, this is true. This is true.

Daniel Kiernan  48:31

Well, while we're bashing men, well, I am you're not male eagles. Again, one of the things that has disgusted me, and this is no, this is none of the players fault. But one of the things it's disgusted me since I've been working on the WTA side, is how poor the tournament structure schedule is, compared to compared to the men's side, you know, and, obviously, we talk a lot, there is comparisons, equality, pay, you know, all of these very important subjects that I that I think we're getting more and more right in tennis, you know, and that, and I'm proud of tennis for that. Probably a bit of an unseen one is the importance of the number of events, you know, because if you have very few events, and you've talked about having quite a big gap between you know, you have you 75 cares you when you win the tournament, you get 75 points, and then the next tournaments or 500 cares where you've actually got a, you know, you've got the five hundreds where you actually have to win one match, you get 105 points as an example. And there's a quite a big discrepancy there. So what ends up happening is, it's just kind of common knowledge, I guess and rationale is that there's those events, those lower level events become a higher level, because no one's got anything to play. Whereas when you have multiple events during the week, then you have more opportunities. You also don't often have to travel as much you can do your scheduling a little bit more localized, play three, four events in the similar sort of place rather than going from America, to Japan, to Dubai, to wherever it may be. What are we going to do about that? What can we do done about that? And? And what's the reality of how I guess you guys, the players feel about that as well?

Olivia Nicholls  50:25

Yeah, I mean, the schedule, particularly at the start of the year, sort of, I'd say, especially in like, February, March, can be very challenging, because if you're not top 50, top 55, and making the cut for Dubai, Doha, Indian Wells, Miami, then the actual options you have available are very limited. I think I could maybe play one 250 in America in that time. And if I'm not going to make the trip for that one 250, then I'll be playing 75s again, which, you know, it's fine. But it does mean that I probably can't make the progress, I want to in a short space of time, because realistically, even if I'm winning them every week, I'm not going to move that much. But in terms of actually what there is to do about it. I don't I don't have an answer for that. There was a lot of talk about how they were going to be putting on this schedule of 125s this year to kind of bridge the gap as you like. But they're not actually on the schedule until April time. Really, I think there's one in Mexico coming up, which I potentially was gonna go to, but then I saw it was eight draw. So you know, that's a that's an advanced list of four, you know, and you're not taking a chance on going to Mexico for a 125 It's just, it's not even financially viable

Daniel Kiernan  51:54

Even for the TUI flight on the way back.

Olivia Nicholls  51:59

Yeah, I mean, maybe I can get some kind of loyalty with with TUI. But yeah, so is is difficult, but I think, yeah, the opportunities do open up as the year goes on. And that's where it's important not to kind of push too hard too soon, and burn yourself out. Because I think it's so easy for everyone to kind of finish their year. I'm done, I'm exhausted mid November, when actually there's still quite a lot of good opportunities to be had late November and December. So yeah, it's frustrating that there's not more going on now. But yeah, it is what it is. And you just gotta be patient and wait for the opportunities to come when they do.

Daniel Kiernan  52:41

Yeah, we're all human beings, right? Playing for 12 months or peaking for 12 months, every year is not not reality. Yeah. So you know, you have a good three, four or five months, you know, that's that's normally enough to to continue progressing your ranking. And I think having that longer term vision, yes. And development and being able to see that I think it's that mature, that mature head of yours again, Olivia that you had when you were coming out. I want to go a little bit lighter. Olivia, and we're getting into the closing stages, but gone a little bit later about your career. And you know, just a couple of little questions around that. And I guess the first question is your best share with us your best career moment to date?

Olivia Nicholls  53:31

Can I can I limit it to three? Because there's three that stand out? And two of them came in 2022. And one of them came last year. So yeah, Leon Leon was a minor lyses first WTA. We ended up making final there. And yeah, that was just an incredible week because it was yeah, it was a huge breakthrough week, I'd never played WTA before we went there with the intent, you know, we were going to sign in, see if we got in. And if we didn't play there, we had a backup of going to play 25k in France. So you can imagine, you know, the excitement of just getting in no expectations. And yeah, to just you know, go on to make final, I think in the semis as well. We were six love four love Sudden Death deuce down and came back to win. So yeah, just like kind of playing with so much freedom. Yeah, and to make final there that was, you know, that was where it all started, to be honest. So that was a that was a huge highlight, and then playing Wimbledon for the first time in 2022. Again, like it was both walked out onto court, beaming just enjoying every minute. And we won our first match there. And I think we reacted like we'd won Wynwood and to be honest, it felt like that at the time. Yeah, so that was a huge moment.

Daniel Kiernan  54:54

I mean, why not?

Olivia Nicholls  54:55

Yeah, why not? You know, we had both of us, me and Lissey had all of our fun friends, family, I mean, I, I pretty much had the whole of Acle on the side of the court, she had the whole of. So it was a really incredible moment. And yeah, it was really good, good memories there. And then, the end of that year, we both got selected to play at the BJK finals in Glasgow, and had this dream run. The team went two nil down against Kazakhstan. And we we won the doubles rubber to make it two one and keep us in the group. And then the team needed to beat Spain three nil to qualify to move through to the semifinals. And we did that and we won that deciding doubles rubber. And yeah, it was just incredible. Like, the atmosphere, the home crowd, friends and family there, you know, representing your country, you, just stuff that you if you'd have told me when I was a kid, like you just wouldn't believe it. So to have played for my country, and had that experience and to get through to the semi finals for the first time in however many years it was, was incredible. Yeah. Because

Daniel Kiernan  56:14

I watched that and, and you girls were amazing. And like, it was such almost like a connection, like almost like childlike joy, that, that I think that I think sometimes tennis takes us away from. I had this conversation with my wife actually in Australia, that when the girls Gaby and Erin won their third round, they've just won the third round Australian Open. And the feeling I had was relief. And they just moved to the quarterfinals. And I hated it. And I was very aware of the feeling that I had. And I walked into the into the changing room to see them and, and one of them said Phew and the other one went Oopsie.

Olivia Nicholls  57:02

I can tell who said what.

Daniel Kiernan  57:04

Because they went a set down. And actually it's the other way around. Oh, really? Yes. And and it was this like moment of like, Oh, don't tell me we've lost this joy this because US Open was that run for, for them, for me to be a pleasure to be a part of because it wasn't, it was so unexpected. And I think the expectation and the weight of expectation is it's so horrible. I don't quite know how to stop it. Even though we try to and you know, that was talked about a lot like Australian Open and the girls who just made the semi finals and it's like, oh my God, I've come back not feeling like the mid made semi-finals as I've come back on oh my god what they should have done that not only that, it's it's this sport is the devil when it comes to that so so back to you guys in Glasgow because that feeling was such a, I think it's so infectious when you watch it. You know, and it was such an infectious feeling watching it. It just beamed out at the screen. So describe that moment when you've won. The final point you've won to beat Spain to qualify for the Billie Jean King Cup semi finals, out of nowhere, you know yourself, Lissey, you've not been you know, that hasn't been your journey for the couple of years before? How did that feel?

Olivia Nicholls  58:28

Yeah, I mean, it felt amazing. I think I remember there being a lot of articles afterwards about what you've just described kind of this infectious feeling of how much we're enjoying ourselves. But yeah, I think a lot of that, you know, it did come down to the fact of like, what good friends we were, what good friends we are. We spent a lot of time together. We're on this journey together. And then it was like the icing on the cake to be paying for Great Britain. And then yeah, that none of that was it was just happening. None of that was anything we were thinking about. It was like you know, the team vibe had been amazing. Everyone's getting on really well. That was kind of where I first got to know Heather. And we just hit it off like just connected. So I remember like I think it was like we won the sell something like a serve and volleyed, but I knew the return was going out. I'd like sprinted to the to the change over to the seats that high five the team and was just loving it. And I know what you mean about kind of what you're saying about the girls and you know, sometimes you do feel like on the Tour, you can't quite express yourself in the same way. And I've spoken a little bit with my team about this because I feel like in that environment, in that team environment. You're playing with your friend, you're on a team with all your pals. You can kind of like express yourself a little bit more and try to just allow myself to do that when I'm on the tour as well because I think it can get a little bit, you know, or you're worried about what people think or if you're being arrogant or if you're doing this and doing that, rather than just being yourself and enjoying it a bit more. But yeah, going back to that, you know, the Billie Jean King cup, I think. Yeah, just all of those things of the team aspect. Everyone getting on really well wanting to do it for each other. Enjoying being out there enjoying the moment. You know, it just kind of all happened quite quickly and just fell into place. Really?

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:32

What's your biggest regret tennis?

Olivia Nicholls  1:00:34

I don't have one.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:37

I said I was gonna go lighter. We weren't lighter. But there's so many. There were so many lighter, nice stories. And it's such a smile on my face with those stories. I thought I'd bring you back in to so that's a good, that's a good answer. I haven't

Olivia Nicholls  1:00:52

I haven't told you my last laugh. Oh,

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:54

you got what you've told me. You got one more. This is an I know. This must be. Yeah, exactly. So we got to hear about that. I have to

Olivia Nicholls  1:01:05

I have to mention it. Because that that whole kind of experience with Johnny was the most joyous, funny, unexpected couple of weeks. Yeah, that you could imagine. Just because of the circumstances. I actually never planned to play with him originally. I don't know if he knows it or not. But I was gonna play with Henry pattern. And then he obviously got the injury. So he couldn't play grasscourt season. Johnny hadn't really been playing that much already. He only rocked up for the grass court season. And I didn't know if we'd get in because of that. But yeah, we did get in he was obviously working with Andy as well. And yeah, we we just went on this stream, basically. Which was which was incredible.

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:55

And Johnny is like I mean, he's got a serious gift that boy you know for for playing for playing tennis. But he's also got a serious gift for, for playing a crowd. And for that environment. Like he's the almost seems to me like he's the perfect mixed doubles partner.

Olivia Nicholls  1:02:15

This is what Tom my coach was saying. He was like, he kept saying to Johnny, you're a top 10 in the world doubles just because, as you say, he plays the crowd. He can come up with these incredible shots that, you know, get the crowd going. And I think what he does best that maybe a lot of guys don't do in mixed doubles is makes his partner feel so at ease, you know, he makes you feel so comfortable on the court so relaxed. She probably wouldn't mind me saying but Leylah Fernandez played with Wes Koolhof. And we played against them. And I don't think she was at her best because of how nervous she was playing with him. Yeah. And I obviously didn't feel that with Jonny because he made me feel so at ease, you know, just having a laugh. Before we went on for our first round match. He was still in the box watching Andy Murray play Tsitsipas 10 minutes before. So, you know, everything was very relaxed and very laid back. And yeah, it kind of took the pressure off. I guess.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:20

There's a couple of things. I want to ask you about that, One, did Andy come and watch you guys?

Olivia Nicholls  1:03:25

No, he didn't. But Judy did.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:28

Well, that's, that's a good substitute. And, two, because we hear it all the time. And there's a sweet spot, right? There's a sweet spot. When people retire, I definitely my best tennis was played in US college. But then my second best tennis was played the 6, 12 months after I stopped playing. You know, I actually beat a Wimbledon champion, that someone called Steven Huss, who had just won Wimbledon the year before, six months after, beat him in doubles playing with someone else who was 30 in the world, and I didn't have those wins when I was playing. You know, so I there's a sweet spot of, of giving a shit but not giving a shit. You know, so you know, you've gotta have that give a shit. Have the right discipline, take care of your body, take care of your mind, but you get your reps in, but then find that sweet spot of performing like you don't give a shit. You know, and it's a really fine balance because, you know, and the example I use, like, Kyrgios, his island on that's quite small. But our Benoit pair, you know, but on his day, they're dynamite on their daily absolute dynamite. But then the most tennis players give a shit, but they also give a shit. And that's then the ones that get very tense and it's hard and it's hard to perform and it's hard to just let it happen and let it all come out. And then you've got the I'm still gonna say it the The greatest of all time on the men's side, Roger Federer who took care of everything, but he played with this elegance and this grace that he kind of, and he often said it, you know, you had a tolerance for failure. You know, okay, if I, if I lose this match, I still go out to dinner with my family. So I can tolerate failing, which is quite powerful. How do you get that balance? Because Johnny O'Mara in that week, like you say, top 10, mixed doubles, but maybe even a top 10 does mean he was hitting late returns, like, in moments like, whoa, where's that? What is going on here? But it's not easy to maintain that right.

Olivia Nicholls  1:05:38

Yeah, I mean, starting off, we played. So I was playing Deuce court in the first round for a set. And he was playing Ad court, and I normally play on the edge. But I just said to him, Look, you know, you're, you're the strength for this team, you play where you want to play. So we so I started off playing on a side that I'm not used to, and we lost the first set 6-1. And I think in normal circumstances, I'd probably just stuck with it. Because, you know, there's a long way to go, whatever. But he was like, oh, let's just have a bit of banter here. Why don't we swap sides. And I think everything kind of stemmed from, you know, him making these kinds of calls and keeping it so light. So we swapped sides, we snuck the second set on a tie break, and then we won the third. And, you know, that just kind of opitomises what he was like, and I probably wouldn't have done that. And the whole week, he was checking out what whole fortnight he was checking out of his hotel every day, because he was like, it's a win win. Because if we win, we're in the next round. And if we lose, I get to go home and see my dogs. So he just constantly spoke about Win Win situations. And I think, you know, by modeling it like that in his brain, it actually worked really well. And it's, you know, he was able to find that sweet spot like you've just spoken about. So I've tried, you know, I've tried to be a bit more Johnny in the last six months or since that run and yeah, Dubai being an example. You know, if we lose first round while I'm in Dubai, and I'm going to make a bit of a holiday of it, or you know, this type of thing and Porto of 75 I'm just here for matches if I lose was only an hour, hour flight home and you know, and then you go on and you end up having a good week. So it's it's constantly trying to create these situations in your in your mind where if it doesn't go so well then it doesn't matter because you know, there's a silver lining. I like so good learning for me for Johnny from Johnny.

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:42

I love Johnny but when he played he wasn't like that. But but that's what great learning and he's you know, let's see. So obviously, in Andy Murray's corner now as well. And you know, that's, I'm sure that's one of the big reasons Andy loves having him around as well. He is a great guy to to have in your corner. So I'm pleased you jumped in and added I thought that was a fourth story. I thought you said three. Sorry, I could only limited to four. Sneak the fourth, but all well worth listening to. Now, this next bit, I'm gonna say a name or I'm gonna say a statement. And then you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna talk. Okay, Aryna Sabalenka

Olivia Nicholls  1:08:28

Powerhouse, champion.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:32

Alfie Hewett

Olivia Nicholls  1:08:34

Norfolk legend.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:36

So what you're doing I like what you've done here. You've changed. You've changed the game, which is great. I've obviously you know, not explained this well Yeah, like you don't? Like you? Look, you look like you're playing some game on Christmas Day. Where you're, like afraid that someone's gonna press press a hooter or something if you say the wrong word. So I'm gonna take it for Aryna but when you went to school with Alfie I'm not just having Norfolk legend. Yeah, come on, give me more.

Olivia Nicholls  1:09:16

Okay, so a bit about Alfie. Alfie is a great guy. I've known him since we were really young. He's a couple years younger than me. But we went to the same Secondary School Acle High School, give them a little shout out. But yeah, he's a really good guy. He's been through a lot in his life. And he's worked extremely hard to get to where he's got to. I really admire him as a person and as a tennis player. He's Yeah, he's achieved a huge amount and yeah, enjoy spending time with him off the court as well. We're both big Norwich City fans. So we've been to a few games together. Yeah, he's he's a top top guy and I hope the best hope for the best for him. And yeah I know how much it it means to him to win a Wimbledon title so I hope he's able to achieve that

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:08

I'm still I'm still smiling because I can't believe how that game started I can't I can't get it off my head the way that you were so thinking about the one that one or two words to say but what what was coming into my head as you were speaking about Alfie was how cool would this be? Not only mixed doubles but a mixed ability doubles as well you know.

Olivia Nicholls  1:10:31

You know what we've we've spoken about it because obviously his partner is Gordon and Maia Lumsden is female doubles player. They're both Scottish. We're both from Norwich. So we're trying to Yeah, we've thrown the idea out there to to get some kind of mixed doubles event going, you know

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:52

I would absolutely love because like that, again, like, I like watching wheelchair tennis. But if I want to singles, singles doesn't get me really. But the doubles. Oh, my goodness, the doubles is like, I don't know if you saw it the other day, there was a two minute rally in one way. In one of the matches in an Australian Open. There was two minutes. I mean, and it was just like shot to shot to shot and then you get the you know, someone plays the drop shot. And it's I think it's fascinating, but I think that would be a mixed doubles mixed ability. I think I think there's legs in that. And I think Yeah, agreed. It would be really, really cool to see it. My next my next one we've we've talked about doubles to a degree but the future of doubles in the tennis world. Where does the future lie?

Olivia Nicholls  1:11:47

I hope that the likes of Yeah, the United Cup, Olympics, you know, might give it the exposure that it needs to maintain its place in Yeah, in the tennis tour, because it is important and very entertaining. And it'd be a real shame if, if it, you know, kind of downgrades as it were. So, I hope that it's gonna keep pushing on and there's going to be more opportunities for doubles players.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:19

Quickfire round the traditional quick fire round, it control the controllables Are you ready?

Olivia Nicholls  1:12:26

I'm ready

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:26

Singles or doubles,

Olivia Nicholls  1:12:29

Doubles

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:30

Serve or return.

Olivia Nicholls  1:12:32

Return.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:33

Forehand or backhand.

Olivia Nicholls  1:12:36

Forehand,

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:37

Your favorite tournament?

Olivia Nicholls  1:12:40

Wimbledon's the obvious one, but non obvious one, Charleston.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:44

Oh, a few people have said that actually. Been there but I need to get it on the list. Medical time out or not?

Olivia Nicholls  1:12:55

Not strongly.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:59

Rafa or Roger?

Olivia Nicholls  1:13:02

Roger

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:03

Serena or Venus.

Olivia Nicholls  1:13:05

Serena

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:06

The best of three or sudden death games and a match tie break?

Olivia Nicholls  1:13:13

Best the three?

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:15

What's one rule change you would have in tennis?

Olivia Nicholls  1:13:20

The entry list for Grand Slams for doubles is done on doubles ranking. You can't get in on your singles ranking. Or at least there's some kind of rule where you have to have played eight doubles tournaments a year. You can't just walk up for the slams on your singles ranking.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:38

I like it. And I agree. What does control the controllables mean to you?

Olivia Nicholls  1:13:43

I guess recognizing that not everything is in your control. But the things you can control. You do control and you don't worry about the rest.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:56

And who should our next guest be on Control the Controllables?

Olivia Nicholls  1:14:00

I think someone that would have a really interesting story. I don't if you've had them on already is Billy Harris. Have you had Billy Harris on

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:08

I and I have to actually stop. Before I answer that I've literally just had a message come through and I'm going to share it because I've just seen that we've been voted as the Best Tennis Podcast in 2024. That's literally just front of it. So congratulations. For the third year. I literally can't believe that I thought we there's no way that we can win this year. So Wow. So thank you to everybody. Anyone who's listening. That is unbelievable. Amazing. Sorry. That's completely distracted me. But I had to share Billy I absolutely want on so I coached Billy for a while Billy was out at the tennis academy. I think Billy's story is incredible. I have been in touch with Billy and it was back in October November time and he said I don't really have a story yet. Yeah. And he does have a story. It's an incredible story. But he was of the mindset, I think at the time where he wanted to qualify for Australian Open. He wanted to get the ranking. I don't think he wants to practice. I understood. I understood that completely. Yeah. So he's someone that I definitely want to revisit, because I think it's a really important story. And anyone who doesn't know Billy Harris basically traveled the whole of Europe in a in a campervan for many years and has done tennis the absolute hard way. And he's got himself into the top 200 in the world. It's a really motivational, inspirational story. So if you can persuade him, then the baton is passed. If you can't persuade him, you need to give me a reserve name just in case.

Olivia Nicholls  1:15:56

Think Maia Lumsden had a has a very good story as well. She had long COVID and managed to come back from that and then obviously made the quarterfinals for Wimbledon last year. Yeah, she's She's a great girl. I don't know how keen she'd be to come and speak on a podcast, but I could try and persuade her. But yeah, we'll see.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:19

Two great suggestions. And Olivia, a big, big thank you for for you coming on. It's great to hear your story. And it's only halfway through, you know that I have no doubt like I told you on that balcony above all those years ago, the future's absolutely bright for you, I know that there's if there's one thing I know, I know, the doubles game. And I know a proper doubles player when I see it, you know, and it just, you know, you keep getting your head down, you keep doing your thing. And there's, there's lots more, you gave me four stories on this podcast, you sneak up on him, you know, you're only supposed to have one. But that's fine. But you're the next time I have you on I want for fresh stories. And I have no doubt that those stories will be it will be exciting to tell. So all the very best over the next few weeks in the show. And hopefully, I will see you out there somewhere along the line as well.

Olivia Nicholls  1:17:15

Thanks so much, Dan.

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:16

So there you have it. Another great story coming to us here at Control the Controllables. And my big takeaway look, anything is possible, guys. And if it is possible, as long as you stay the course and I talked about that with players, whether that's in a match, you know, the beauty of a tennis match is you could be 6-1 4-1 down. If that was a football match, if that was a rugby match a basketball match a hockey match, you would be done right? You'd be seven nil down it one down basketball 100 to 60 down with five minutes to go the matches done. It's not physically possible to get back in. Now, if you're being beat up on the tennis court, you have good, a good 10 minutes at any point you are back in the match. And that's what I always always love about our sport and our scoring system. And Olivia story is similar, you know, you go back to her being 16 1718 years old, she was 6141 down, she wasn't going to be a tennis player. But she stayed the course. She stayed humble, she kept working. And then opportunities start to open. And you never quite know when you start to mature a little bit more you never quite know when you get the bug even more and get even more inspired to do things the right way. And I just love hearing from Olivia and how she's doing that and how she's done that. And now she's in the big leagues and she's playing on the big stages. And as I said at the start of the show, I really believe in Olivia I really do I think she's got a fantastic future ahead. If you get a chance to watch her play the her ability and and she plays doubles the right way. You know what we used to know as doubles coming to the net, looking to knock the ball off, you know, as she really is a fantastic player to watch. And I wish her all the very best as she continues to rise up the rankings. But my final thing I said it at the start and I'm going to end with that I have to because I am so excited. Maybe a bit nervous, you know to stand in front of you all and and bring our Control the Controllables to you in person. It feels like now's the time. This is the right step for us to take. And I just can't wait to meet you all. Can't wait to show you what we have planned and really we we do have some amazing panelists. There's lots of conversations going on right now. But John Morris who has been a guest on the podcast, John Morris was the agent to Nick Kyrgios and is the current agent to Andre Rublev. Elina Svitolina to Daria Kasatkina to Borna Coric, and he is working very closely and understands the ins and outs of where tennis is going next, we are in touch with Craig Tiley about being part of the show. Let's see, let's see if we can get Craig, who is the big person behind this next move of the Grand Slams coming together for the next phase of tennis. We're in talks with players coaches, and I can guarantee you it's going to be an amazing discussion. And on top of that, we're going to have a lot of fun on the night. And I really hope that you can join us, wherever you are in the world, you know, this up to date technology that now is going to be able to stream that into your home and make it interactive. Just yeah, I can't tell you how happy I am that we are doing this. Like I said, All the details are in the shownotes. And if you're not following us yet on social media, come on over CTC podcast on various platforms, or SotoTennis, you'll also find us as well. And we're going to be sharing all that information. And I want to say a big thank you to you all for your continued support. As we're moving through 2024 it's all exciting. I go off to Indian Wells to Palm Springs next week. So what do you want to hear from me from there? Who do you want me to try and speak to whilst I'm out there, so many more things that we can do and so much more we can bring to you but until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables