Jamaica Inn: Where History Whispers and Legends Linger

There are places where the landscape seems to become part of the story.

High on Bodmin Moor, the roads disappear into mist, The land stretches away, rugged, beautiful and ancient, and through the cloud and old inn emerges.

When you come down the A 30 over the side of the hill, Brown Willy, which is the highest point in Cornwall, and you see the Jamaica Inn, and if it's foggy, it looks as if it's an island with a sea of cloud.

It's just exquisite.

But also Cornwall is such a mystical place.

There's so much to see and do there.

Jamaica Inn, a place shaped by isolation and weather, by travellers crossing a landscape that was once little more than tracks through Martian bog, by centuries of lies lived within its walls.

And then there are the stories that refuse to remain entirely in the past.

A.

Lot of shadows, cold spots, knocking, tapping.

Footsteps, voices, figures glimpsed where nobody should be.

Stories passed from one generation to another until history, folklore and haunting become almost impossible to prize apart.

But perhaps the real story of the Jamaica Inn isn't simply whether it is haunted.

Perhaps it is about the extraordinary hold that this place has upon those who encounter it.

For for me personally, the first time I ever visited there, which was quite a few years before, the only way I can express it is to say I felt like I was coming home.

In this episode, I'm joined by Corinne Besant and Lisa Holman, paranormal investigators, researchers and co-authors of Jamaica Inn, the history, hauntings and folklore to journey into the history of the Inn, the people who have passed through its doors, the folklore that has gathered around it, and the strange experiences still being reported there.

Because on Bodmin Moore, the Jamaica Inn doesn't simply feel like a building with the past.

Sometimes it feels as though the past is still inside.

So before we kind of disappear into the the Wiles of Bodmin Moore, do you want to maybe just take a little bit of time to introduce yourselves or anyone meeting you for the first time on the podcast and tell us a little bit about your individual relationships then with the Jamaica Inn and the paranormal?

So I'm Carrie and I'm a paranormal investigator for too many years to I want to remember.

I'm also lucky enough to for 11 half years run the Jamaican paranormal team and I'm their historian because I I'm such a nerd about the place.

I love it.

But myself and Lisa are also paranormal consultants.

We help a lot of charity places when they want to open up for paranormal hire, so it's done with integrity and especially protect the history and the brand.

OK, so I have been a paranormal investigator for nearly 15 years and I've been part of the Jamaicaan paranormal team since 22,000 and 18.

So so eight years now.

I'm an author as well.

This is the third book that I've written and I've designed lots of different health journals and Diaries and paranormal log books and things, so I'm in my happy place when I sat at the computer.

Before we talk about the book which you co-authored together to make it in the history, hauntings and folklore, I want to ask you both about the place itself because this clearly goes far beyond simply researching A historic building.

What is it about Bodmin, Moore, Cornwall and the Jamaica Inn that has got under both of your skin?

What keeps drawing each of you back and makes you want to keep uncovering its stories?

For for me personally, the first time I ever visited there, which was quite a few years before, the only way I can express it is to say I felt like I was coming home.

When you come down the A 30 over the side of the hill, Brown Willy, which is the highest point in Cornwall and you see the Jamaica in and if it's foggy, it looks as if it's an island with a sea of cloud.

It's just exquisite.

But also Cornwall is such a mystical place.

There's so much to see and do there.

It's so rugged, it's beautiful.

And the Jamaica in research, even 2 weeks ago we were dropped a bombshell with the possibility that Churchill may have been there by a guest.

Lisa, did you want to add anything?

Yes.

So I am originally from North Devon, so going to that part of the Cornwall, Devon and Cornwall specifically, it just it feels like I'm going home.

And I think for me, when we reveal new parts of the history of the Jamaican, seeing Corinne's enthusiasm is just, yeah, it's just something to beholden.

It really is.

I mentioned earlier that we're really here to celebrate your book, to make it in the history, hauntings and folklore.

Where did the idea of finally putting all of this extraordinary material into one book come from, and why did you feel that now was the right time to do it?

So Corinne is obsessive and very protective about the factual history of the inn being put out there.

And whenever she sees someone mention the inn or do amazing podcasts or YouTube videos of the inn saying about the history, if they get something incorrect, she very likesly.

She very nicely comments that there's an amazing work, but can she just correct a few things?

So in a nutshell, I kind of got fed up with a daily phone call of her moaning about they've done this wrong and they've done that wrong.

And I said, well, just write the book then.

And she kept saying no to there's more to discover.

So it's about a year of her moaning, people putting the wrong stuff out and a year of me saying let's write the book to eventually I said, look, let's just get the book done because no, you know, no one knows what you know about the end because you've researched it for so many years.

You are kind of like the font of all knowledge for the Jamaica in Why don't we just stop saying there's so much more to discover because there's so much to discover.

You'll never get it done in your lifetime otherwise.

Let's just get the book written and it's done then.

And then you can stop moaning at me about people getting it wrong because you could say read the book.

So it was kind of me instigating it for about a year before we actually did anything.

I didn't think it was possible to put everything that I wanted in.

If I have my way, it probably would have been four times as thick.

But it's Lisa being a fantastic writer and having the experience of writing books.

Every time there was a section that she would just say irrelevant.

So she condensed it down beautifully and I hate to say it, but she was right.

You know, sometimes you can put too much in, but to have the information, the way she's let it out is, is truly stunning.

And the book itself has been divided into these brilliant strands, you know, history, hauntings, folklore, very much what it says on the tin In terms of the title of the book.

Do you want to just take us through what readers can expect to discover?

And how important was it that none of those elements existed in isolation from the others?

So the reason we start with the history is because the world we live in now, at the time when the inn was built in the late 18th century, it is alien by comparison.

And the way we spoke, the way we dressed, the way we greeted each other, everything was different.

So for me, in a way, starting with what the Bob Minmoore looks like back then there was no roads, it was dirt tracks leading across the Moor, which in some senses were quite perilous because you had Bosch in the bog land.

So it to me it's important to understand what a feat it was for Captain John Board to build the inn in that time period and turn Bob Minmoore into arable land.

It was all done by through blood, sweat and tears.

So for me, it's very important that people understand what an amazing feat it was.

And then when you go into the hauntings, the idea initially was, well, this has been reported here and we believe this is the spirit.

But we're very aware that it's very easy to implant in someone that they are having a paranormal experience.

We know ourselves because we've done psychological experiments between us making people think that something paranormal has happened to them, what is about to happen to them.

So by leading people by the hand is this has been reported here and we believe this is the spirit.

We can't prove that it is that spirit.

So we can't just scratch that format in a way because we wanted people to make their own minds up rather than us telling them what what spirit's doing what, where.

I I think also that with the folklore, so much folklore is built up and usually folklore is based on a segment of truth, but it's very important to be honest about what the folklore is there.

Like Hannah in room 5, the smuggler that was lured out on the Moor.

The early reports are of a sailor, and now a sailor would make sense coming back from a voyage, a bag full of gold, ETC.

You're more likely to be mugged for that.

But we don't know if it's true.

So again, this is this folklore, but we, we want to make sure that people have exact correct information, same as like the window of a candle being put out so it's all clear for the customer.

And it's a great folklore, but it is it based on fact, Maybe a tiny bit, but we can't prove it.

And that's the important thing, is the honesty.

And just to kind of add in to what you both said there, I think what you've done so masterfully with this book, and I genuinely, genuinely mean this from, you know, every every kind of fiber of my being.

I think what is so masterful about this book is that that shaping of the history, that shaping of the folklore, everything that you put into the book on every single page creates this connection with the book, connection with what you've written.

So that as you're reading the book, as you turn the page, it's almost as if you are stepping into that place or that somehow the the location steps out of the book itself.

Suddenly it's this breathing character.

You understand the history in a very real way which connects with the people.

You understand them more.

You suddenly see them in colour, you suddenly see them as living beings, almost, that you're walking side by side as you enter the inn alongside them.

And you almost lifted the history out of the place, the folklore of the place, out of just concepts, if you like.

Words that we might say and transformed it into the book in a way that it almost feels like this breathing entity, a living thing in its own right.

And that is so incredibly immersive and so enjoyable and so rich.

You just almost get lifted out of your seat wherever you are reading the book, laying in bed, sitting by the fire, And it's almost like you're being taken through the air, transported through the air at breakneck speed.

And suddenly you are right there in the inn, by the fireplace, standing outside of the inn itself.

You are walking the same steps and I just think that is absolutely wonderful.

It's brilliant.

So well done to both of you.

Hats off for doing something that I think is truly incredible.

Thank you so much.

It's again, you know, Lisa has this amazing knack of turning this information and you feel like you're there just watching them live their lives, but also getting to know the people.

Yeah, they just get under your skin.

They genuinely feel like the real people that they are.

And we mustn't forget that.

It's almost as if they are in the room with you and you are in the room with them.

And that's just such a rare feat, I think, in quality book writing, to get that kind of experience where you feel as if you're almost living it alongside them.

And that's what you've done with the book so brilliantly because you are taking an awful lot of history, an awful lot of information, and putting that into the book.

And none of that gets lost from page to page.

That experience is there in every single page alongside the factual understanding, the factual history and the context.

And again, it's just a sign of the real quality of the writing and the effort that was put in by both of you to help bring it to life.

And I think that stems from the fact that you are both so passionate and care about getting it right so much that you really have done everything you can to just put that onto the page, to really bring the life of this place to everyone's understanding, to their imagination.

It's a part of who you both are.

And that integrity, that love that you have for the place just shines through.

It's a brilliant book.

It's one that I cannot, cannot recommend highly enough.

And I think it's one that so many people will love for different reasons.

And that has been the feedback from people that have bought it.

It's completely stunned us.

Someone say I started the book.

Haven't read book for years, but I had to read all about.

I couldn't put it down.

And you know, well done to Lisa for taking the madness out of my brain and making it into coherent words.

It was a challenge.

And I was going to come and ask about that because obviously you both bring very different skills and interests to this project.

And I don't know if you each had that sense of something about the, the book that felt particularly yours in the sense that, you know, things that you brought into it that you feel really kind of helped to encapsulate your interests or the things that you feel that you can, you can bring to life in terms of the project itself and the book itself, if you know, through the research and the writing or the talking about it.

Like I said, if they were just things that meant that this was a good fit in terms of what you could both bring.

For me, I, I've learnt so much, not just about the Jamaican but about England in that time frame and that time period, what was involved and who was involved.

I mean, I've, I've listened to loads of Quinn's talks about the Jamaican and there's so much that I didn't know that she's in her talks, she's not included.

So if for me, it was an honour to work alongside Corinne to create this.

And I, I never did it for, for me, I, I never had any inclination of putting my name on the book.

And even now I threatened to get a sharpie and put across my name.

Actually, I've got to do all these things I've got to do because it's, I'm happy to write the book.

And that's me Dan, that's my input.

And I'm quite happy to sit on the on the sidelines and not do anything else with it in a way because it just puts me on my comfort zone.

So I wanted to do the book for Corinne because I just think she just so deserves to be recognised for her sheer passion, obsession, protectiveness and weirdness about the inn.

Because and everything that she knows about the inn, most people would write it down somewhere and then forget about it.

But she keeps it all in her head.

So trying to extract some of the information from her head because we had a spreadsheet where she'd start writing something and then I'd have follow up questions.

We'd have to go on a video call so I could keep an eye on what she was doing.

Because when she's answering the question, she's like, oh, I just need to check that.

And she'd be down a rabbit hole that she wouldn't, shouldn't be down at that point in time.

So I would look up and go, what are you doing?

No, no, no.

Answer the question.

Then you can go back down the rabbit hole because we need to get this section finished.

Because it was very much the time period or the time constraint that Corinne put on us was six months, which was a very short time frame.

I've never written a book so quickly and it was very much a case of we all need to sit here for the whole weekend and do this and you can't do anything else.

You no cups of tea.

Just get on, get the information down because I can't do this section.

Finish this section until you've put it down and extract it from your brain.

I think in some respects if she hadn't made notes and just given me the notes, it would have been a lot easier, but it didn't work that way.

I think she would have lost the notes if she'd have done that and then that would be it.

That is part of his be gone.

So it was, yeah, an absolute honour to be involved in in the project, it really was.

The The thing is, like you say, you, you remember so much.

We love a subject.

It's easy to to keep that information.

But once if you start putting things on paper, suddenly you think, well, I wonder about this.

And then the next minute you find out a little gem.

So Davidstow Airport, the famous case of Trevor Howard, the famous government of the wind star who was lost at sea over the Bay of Biscay.

So during the Second World War there was a flight from Whitchurch Airport, which is 2 minutes drive from where I live, was the only Municipal Airport during the Second World War.

And you would have the German and English spies get on the plane and fly to Lisburn in Portugal because it was neutral.

Well, there was talk that perhaps Churchill was on this plane and the Luftwaffe downed it, but it was an aeroplane from Davistow that went to look for survivors and wreckage and find nothing.

So you have that connection.

Every time you find new things out it, it just feels as if you're intertwined with the Jamaica Inn in every aspect.

It's it's quite bizarre.

And just kind of following on from that, I mean, I think the the point that you just illustrated there in terms of this new, some of the new information that is always coming out.

I mean, it's something that you and I have talked about personally before in other interviews, whereby, you know, the end just seems to be this place that never has this finished piece of history.

There are always, you know, constantly new things being turned up, new documents, new new information, new records, things that you find in the oddest places.

I might say as well with the, the kind of the research that you do, it's just this story that never has an ending point.

And I think that's part of what makes it such a fascinating and mysterious place that it does feel as though there are always things still to uncover and things to bring out events, people, etcetera.

And I don't know if from the research that you've done, if either of you have had moments where you've just come across something and you've just had that moment of I can't believe we found this out.

I can't believe that we have this piece of documentation or this piece of evidence.

For me it was the Charles Laughton photograph.

So there was a wonderful chap who you know was getting on in years called Brian Abbott.

He is the great nephew of the Horrels who were tenants there from the 20s to 1939.

So when Daphne du Maurier first visited they they had no idea she was writing a book.

And he contacted me and said my family's never been recognised and then sent us these photographs.

The information.

So we all know about Hitchcock's 1939 film Jamaica In.

What we didn't know is that Charles Launton, the major star, actually sent a signed photograph to the Horrels saying to the real proprietor of the Jamaica Inn from the Wicked Squire.

Charles Launnton and Brian sent us a picture of the Ringer Bells, which was the pub they went to after they left the Jamaica Inn.

And the third on the right, you can just make out the image of Charles Lawnson space.

So that means though it was a film they, the stars knew about the real Jamaica in.

And did they ever visit there?

You know, there's still that hidden mystery to uncover.

But thank you, Brian, because without the Daphne du Maurier letters, this would have just died with him.

I think it was where we had gone down to the inn and for the weekend and the plan was to read the final draft, although it wasn't the final draft because more things were discovered and added.

And we were having breakfast that the morning we were coming home and we were speaking to the one of the lovely waitresses down there and we said talk was doing.

She went, oh I know Martin Watts, his pet, his pets were here, the Wattses.

So put us in touch and he sent so many family photos and things like that.

It's just for me it's the personal element where people have been so kind.

Brian Abbott with the Horrel sending us the staff and Martin Watts is still going to go visit his mum and go through the boxes in the loft and and cover more stuff for us.

It's just people's kindness to help really helped bring this project to life, their personal experiences.

To me, that's what's made the book.

Although Quinn and I wrote the book, it's their book as well, because without their input, we wouldn't have the information that's there.

So it's just people's kindness that really sings out to me.

And I think it kind of echoes what we've talked about a little bit already, which is that the book gives this wonderful platform for you to share the stories of of those for whom the inn has really touched their lives, however infamous they are, or however ordinary the person is, how ordinary the people are who've had a part of their story tied up with the inn.

And I think it makes it very personable, and I think it makes it very relatable.

And again, you just see from page to page, just connection to people, the relationships that they had with the inn, their own passion and love for the place, the fact that they've cared about it for so long.

It's just a place that's touched so many people's lives in so many different ways.

It's incredible.

Also we have to thank the staff as well as Katie the manager that a put up with us.

So every time a new staff member joins, they explain they have a paranormal team and as one staff member quotes.

They're weird, but they're very nice.

Yeah, they're lovely, but they're very weird.

Yeah.

Was there any, any one particular person that you just really loved bringing their part of the story into the book and really just giving it that space to to share their story with anyone who reads it?

To be honest with you, for me it would be Captain John Board who built the inn.

So when we discuss the history of the end, we go through what the more was like in his time, in his time period, what he gave up because he's a merchant sea captain.

So we've gone into what was involved in him getting to that qualification.

It was a career for life.

You you joined and you were there till you die.

That was it.

You didn't do anything else.

But the fact that he gave up his career to raised his boys who were orphaned.

And then we go into how he a lady was at the inn and she had a bastard in a way illegitimate child instead of the through the poor laws, the parish paying for the child.

He said the child can she can stay here with a child and he will financially support having a child.

So that to me just screams of the kindness of this gentleman.

And I would love to meet him.

Just sit down and have a drum of rum or whatever his tipple is and just talk about, you know, why, why did you, you know, there's so many questions.

Why did you do this and why did you do that?

And, you know, was Jane related to you in some way?

Because we can't find any proof that's not.

No, that doesn't mean to say that he's the distant relative through a marriage or a cousin or something.

But to me, it's just the kindness of the man and the strength of will that he must have had to accomplish what he did in such a short frame of time.

I think for me it's that the one I look up to is the Mary Downing Lady who sued Thomas done to recognise their legitimate child.

So she sued him with the parish and he was ordered to to pay child support up to the child was like 7 or 8IN.

But she wasn't, she wasn't tarnished like most women would have been.

She was referred to as a gentle woman.

And it's it's incredible the perseverance and the strength that woman had when you think the landlord Thomas was married, his wife Annabella gave birth the same year.

So you can imagine the atmosphere in in the inn at the time.

But also, you know, we don't know what happened to Mary.

Did she go on to marry someone else, have more children?

There's still that missing element of her story.

But what a survivor in a time that women were labeled of ill repute if they got pregnant out of wedlock.

And this does link with something that we were talking about earlier.

You know, the figures who've been part of this story, they just come to life.

You do get to experience who they were like as individuals, their characters, not just their main feats of accomplishments, but the challenges, the things that were difficult for them.

You get to see and understand their day-to-day lives by the different details that you bring out.

And again, it's that sense of belonging and knowing and recognising who they are.

It's just something that makes the book so incredibly well-rounded and put together.

That depth of coverage that enables you to understand the history of the inn, the sense of character of the place and the people in it so meticulously.

And I think something that sits alongside that is a brilliant stroke of detail was the decision to include the floor plans and things like first hand testimonies of people to understand the different versions of the building, to really see some of those changes that have happened, to recognize how it's grown where things used to be, where passageways used to be in rooms and bedrooms and so on.

That evolution in visual form, as well as through testimonies, written records, perspectives of people who you know in the future may not have, may not have been recorded and written down without you doing something like this.

It's just that real insight into the changing history of the inn.

But again, on top of it, it sits so beautifully with the book.

You're able to visualize the history that you're writing.

Again, it adds that sense of colour perspective to the people that you're talking about, to the folklore, to the history and coming back to who you were mentioning, Lisa, you know, by sharing things like those floor plans, you can start to imagine and understand and realise the sheer skill and determination and effort that someone made to bring it all to life, to create everything, to see the hard work, the blood, sweat and tears.

You know, at a time when the the technology to help them get such an enterprise off the ground just wasn't there.

This was sheer graft.

And again, it becomes something that is so much more visceral.

And I don't know if that was your intention, but it's fantastic that you've included these details, you know, things like the maps, etcetera.

Certainly as a reader, I appreciated those those little touches, those extra details that really made this book rather unique.

So for me and Lisa, we chatted about this and we think it's the only book for a paranormal investigator that contains the history, the supposed paranormal, the folklore.

So when they come down to investigate, they have that information all in that book and the plans.

And I don't think there's anything else in the country like it.

You know, I would love to have to have that if I say go to a castle, to have that at my fingertips.

So we were hoping that, you know, the paranormal community will recognise that side of it as well.

So lovely guy called Glynn, poor sausage.

He came down, I want to say in January on a private investigation and we, me and Kim were there and we were working on the book opposite with Appa's restaurant with a laptop.

So from working on the book, trying to get as much done as we could while we're face to face because everything was done by the cloud really, because we're about an hour and 20 minutes apart from each other.

So it's a case of try and get as much done.

And then in the break, the guests come down and they want to say, you know, talk to us and say what they've picked up on and what's happened.

And we're like, Yep, Yep, you're right.

Yeah, keep going down that route.

So we confirm if it's been reported before, but we don't go into detail about who, why, what, when we let them find the information themselves and we'll confirm if it's been reported before or been known before.

So he, this, this lovely man called Lynn was talking to us and Karen goes, oh, guess what we've got, guess what we've got?

And he, she showed him the plans from the 1970s before they did the major refurbishment and put the bedrooms above the stable blocks of rooms. 11:50 And she said, Oh, we're going to recreate this and put it in the book.

And he went, I'm a CAD designer.

We're like, oh, so he designed the plans.

He come down the private investigation and got accosted to do these six plans.

So when he sent them through to us, I looked, I thought if we reduce them in size and put them into the books, they are, they are part of the book.

You're not going to have the information.

It's going to be so small.

You'd have to walk around the magnifying glass to be able to read it.

So next big idea is we'll have them a three size and a four for the original.

But it's not so much landmass that the intake Subs, it's just the farmhouse.

So for every book we have to sell, fold 4A44A3 plans twice, then 2A4 plans once, put them in the plastic bags and put them ready to go with the books.

And then the books that we that the Jamaica in have the plans are put inside the bag with the book so they're all on the shelf together so nothing gets missed.

So that takes a long time to organise the books with the plans.

And it's numerous gallons of tea or coffee, depending what you know, who's who's making it.

Yeah.

So it's it was a lot of work.

And because of the way the book is designed, it's going to be ongoing for every order.

We're going to have to fold these plans up.

But I wasn't changing it because there's some panel investigators, Corinne said.

Having the plans there.

So if you're having evidence, you can say, well, what was here?

What time frame do we think it is?

What time period?

OK, so in that time period, this area was a shed or this area was a bedroom, or it wasn't this, it was a lounge.

So it gives people an insight into the spirit that they might be communicating with.

It's an incredible resource.

I mean, like you, you said, I don't think though, I've ever seen anything like it.

And how useful a document it could be for someone trying to track and place paranormal reports and experiences or just, if you love the history side of it, just to be able to understand the evolution of the inn and how it's changed.

I mean, you can see how so many different people with different interests and how they're coming at the inn are going to find something like that truly fascinating and just such a brilliant resource to have.

I mean, it's a genius, genius idea to include it because it's just so uniquely placed, but so worth it.

It's incredible.

Thank you.

We're just fussy.

Oh, Glenn.

And following on from that, you were just mentioning how, you know, you can use the paranormal reports alongside these maps, these floor plans to help track and place and understand what was what was kind of in that particular area in the past, what might be being experienced in that particular spot in the present.

And in the past, we've spoken on other podcasts about some of the better known ghosts of the Jamaica Inn.

So without kind of touching on that huge archive of discussions and the many, many different accounts that you have at the inn, I mean, it's it's quite an incredible catalog of different reports and experiences of the paranormal, these recurring figures and so on in particular places.

Just to kind of have a, a snapshot of some of that when thinking about the book and bringing all of that information together, just that vast amount of paranormal history.

Was there a particular place that you just knew you had to write about, or a particular sighting and figure that you just knew had to make its way into the book because of just how important it is to that paranormal history of the inn?

For me, it the Pilgrim that one night manager Christian christened Gandalf.

I think it's remarkable that you have a Pilgrim that haunts a place that didn't exist for another 2-3 hundred years.

And he's seen in not just the old part of the inn, but in the extension of the lower restaurant.

But he's, we've only got about 3 or 4 reports, so he's not seen very often.

But what a fascinating character.

We could pin him down and find out all about him.

That would be amazing because he's certainly interested in in the people there, that's for sure.

So for me, it was Gem, who's on the team, her report of being upstairs and all the guests had come down for their break and she was just making sure the doors were locked and all the equipment had been gathered up.

And she's walking down towards, so past the hallway area between rooms three and four.

And she heard behind her down the very end.

I look at a corridor by rooms 5 and 6, a very coolish lady saying here, I'm down here and she's turned around and there's no one there.

And there's a guest, which goes, well, did you hear that?

The guest didn't hear it.

So for me, that is remarkable because we, we, we're accustomed to the end.

We, we know you get a lot of shadows, cold spots, knocking, tapping, and people seeing the spirits.

It's very rare that you get an audible that is so clear that they actually speak to you and you can hear it with your naked ear.

You've not got any of the parabolic ears or you're not on the asterisk experiment, just walking around and they're talking to you.

I find it absolutely amazing and I'm gutted.

Well, I'm not gutted.

I'm jealous that they did it to her and not me because I wouldn't do it to me as well.

Just not fair.

Me and Jim have heard her singing in the corridor and you you go out of room 3 and there was no one there.

But it's the accent, you know, a proper Cornish accent, which to me is like mine, Bristolian but slower.

When someone say no, be down here.

But this is where I think, you know, I really want people listening to the podcast to really appreciate what people will get if they if they purchase the book, if they read the book.

Because you know, just from the introductions that you both gave of yourself, you have been part of the paranormal team and the Jamaica Inn for a number of years.

The access that you have in terms of the paranormal reports, personally, the experiences that you've had as part of the team, but also.

What you are able to understand from, you know, others there the the witness reports, the history of the witness reports, the access that you both have is unbelievable.

And, you know, there's a lot of teams that would quite frankly, probably fall over themselves trying to get hold of what you have access to when it comes to the Jamaica Inn.

The the depth of knowledge that you both have, the evidence that you have and how carefully you have both collected and collated that evidence over the years.

It's making its way into this book.

This is what people are getting access to in a way that they never have before.

And, you know, part of what makes what you're doing so fascinating and what you've always shared are just these really intriguing, fascinating examples of witness statements and cases where you can start to see patterns and trends and see how something has been experienced by multiple different people.

And you get to have those moments on a regular basis and have those moments of thinking, hang on, someone else has described something similar to this.

You know, that recognition that we might have something here, that's what you get to experience quite frequently when it comes to the paranormal reports of the Jamaica Inn.

I mean, again, it must be incredible to have those kinds of moments.

And again, that kind of knowledge is what is making its way into the book.

And it's that openness in sharing what you have, which again, I think provides for a really interesting read of anyone who has an interest in paranormal history, The Jamaica Inn, the folklore of the the Jamaica Inn.

You are putting that all into this book in a way that just gives people that access to what you have and what you've been able to research, find out, experience.

It's all there in in each page, each turn of the page, you know?

We have a smugglers board, so as we say to people on the public nights, they are paranormal detectives.

They might report something or have an experience that we might not have put out in the public domain.

But that's why it doesn't matter when Lisa says them.

If it's a feeling or you think you know, you're going mad, write it down because everything is valid.

And then we collate it.

And you know, to, to have interviewed people going back over 76 years of the Jamaicans history.

Personally, it's it's such a great thing.

And we don't know how long we have left there because obviously I'm 61.

Lisa is a youngster.

She's only 51.

But.

Who do we turn the mantle over to?

The next person that will love it as much as us.

That is going to be the biggest decision.

One day, you know, we will have to let go and it's it's not about us.

It's big shoes to fill for the Jamaica Inn.

So without wanting to kind of out you too much, Lisa, I know that you have a unique relationship with Ian because you yourself are sensitive.

Do you want to talk a little bit about that and some of your experiences?

So James I, I I am biased.

He is one of my favourite spirits.

When I first encountered him he came across as a very aggressive my way or the highway kind of attitude.

Quite bullshit in a way.

And he didn't like strong women and I am quite a strong woman unfortunately, so he didn't particularly like me.

But then talking to him and showing him that we are very respectful and there are rules in place for when people come to the inn and investigate particularly there are no demons, there's nothing demonic, there's nothing nasty.

And we, we do stipulate that quite a lot if anyone wants to come down.

And we are very aware that we are the custodians of the inn and we are the custodians of the spirits.

And we don't want anyone to do anything that would upset our spirits because they were at one time living people like everyone else.

So I'll tell you a few of my encounters of James when we after we became friends the first time.

So recently Corinne was here and we'd had a problem with the print for the book.

The day they're supposed to be arriving.

I had an e-mail saying you're not having them, we're not bringing them.

So we had to find a new printer and it's a different size standard.

So we had well I had to re paginate the book and I phoned Corinne.

I went oh bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep.

Anyone that knows me knows that I have a potty mouth and I said you are going to have to come over and keep me saying bring chocolate.

So she came over and she sat next to me and was really paginating the book.

And we both heard footsteps coming up the stairs coming into my office.

And we could feel someone standing behind us, but between US.

And we both looked at the same time thinking my husband had come in and there's no one there.

And I said to Carell, I went, that's James checking up on us because we'd promised him before we went to print, we would tell him, read him.

He's part of what he's what we've written about him in the book because there are some things that he has told us about himself which are personally promised we would never divulge to anyone.

It will go with us to the grave.

And then we can question him properly about is this true?

And then when we went down to the release date was the 22nd of August.

But because we were going to be at the asset conference for the book launch, we wanted to make sure that the Jamaican had their own stock of books.

So the week before got a quack of dawn, drove to the inn with with their books, met with David, the development manager.

Development.

Retail development.

Retail development manager And we sat in the conference room and we were talking to him and I said to Crano, Aunt James has stood over there, he's really not very happy with us.

And she said, well, I said, because we should have gone to see him first and we didn't.

We should have gone to show him or read him what we've written about him before.

We come to see Davis's not a happy chapter at all.

And then he just said I've been the museum.

So he went to the museum and coincident there like we must look to anyone walking past.

We must look absolute idiots.

I'm their lean gets the wall and Corinne's there reading James's excerpt from the book to an empty room and people walking past and looking at us.

She's and Corinne goes don't mind just reading to the ghosties.

It's fine.

They look they look just like quick fun.

The men in white coats, because something's gone really wrong here, because these two middle-aged women stood in an empty room talking to thin air.

Yeah.

So that that is James.

He is a character.

But you said his reaction seeing the picture of his grandson.

Yeah, so he, I obviously we don't know how the spirit world works, but when Prince said, look, this is your, this is your grandson, he went to Canada.

He said, I didn't know he, he didn't know that he's that he, if he didn't know he had a grandson or he didn't know his grandson had gone to Canada.

And he got quite choked up.

And when we showed him the cup of the book, we said that is what we think your dad looked like.

And he just chuckled and he said he wasn't as unkempt.

And he can't wait to tell his dad.

Yeah, he, he, he said he he wasn't as look dirty looking as like we're like, well, this is just what we know, our representation of what we think your father looked like.

Yeah, but he thought it was he.

He did.

Oh, and his beard.

His beard was shorter.

His beard.

Was short, he wasn't as his beard wasn't as unkempt his he was.

He wasn't clean shaven, but it wasn't as long as what we've portrayed.

So yeah.

Gosh, I'm chuckling away.

That is just such a brilliant that.

Told off by one of the residents saying you know, but.

The one we were there because we didn't invest a panel investigation after we'd spoken to James, he obviously he wasn't annoyed with what we'd written because we were very respectful and we didn't write down everything we know about him or what we assume we know about him because again, we can't prove it.

And he did.

He did come out and speak with some of the guests.

So we we've not annoyed him, which is quite nice.

But it's no, when we think about what we've touched upon, though, it is just this care.

It's this, I mean, you use the word custodians for, you know, the ghosts telling their story properly, you know, respecting them.

It you can just see again, with everything that you've done, there's just this attention to detail, this real consideration and care.

Not to sensationalize, not to change things, just being really honest and sharing what you have in a way that is open, that doesn't try to fill in blanks, and is respectful to the ghosts of the inn.

Again, I just think it shows the care that you put into what you do every single day, and you don't take that job lightly.

I always have an unwritten will that I try to encourage the guests, but you, you can't force your beliefs on people.

I've got an unwritten will that when I'm investigating, I never ask a spirit, how did you die?

Because I know when I pass, I don't want to talk about how I died.

I want to talk about how I lived.

I want to talk about my loves, my family, my hobbies, my friends, people and and my memories.

So I always try to encourage the guests.

Don't ask how they died.

When you go, is that what you want?

Someone to focus on how you pass or how you lived?

So have you spent so long then bringing all of these different things together, the different strands, the research, the the photographs, everything that you've poured into the book, all the love and the attention?

What do you kind of hope somebody will feel or understand differently when they close that final kind of part of the book, when they turn that final page?

Is there a particular hope or feeling that you hope that the reader is left with by the end of it?

I I think from, from my point of view is why have ghosts got to be scary down there?

Particularly there's a great pranking tradition on unsuspecting guests, but also to respect someone's home because it is a home.

It's just they are dead people, but it's still their home.

I hope once people have read the book, it will help them see the Jamaican in in a new light.

As Quinn said, it is someone's home and it's still the spirits homes, but not just the Jamaican.

You know, wherever you go, be respectful of the past, of that building, of that property, of the people that lived there, people who may have unfortunately passed there.

Just walk around and don't be head down thinking about your own lives.

Think about other people that passed before you.

That allows you to have the life you have now.

So I hope it just opens people's eyes to there's more to history than what you think.

There's things that you know.

You just need to turn the page, the book and discover something new.

For me, I just think it's going to be a book that opens so many people's eyes because, you know, if they've, I only got knowledge of the inn through a particular perspective or a particular lens.

Whether you know, that's Daphne du Maurier's book or if that's from something that they've seen or heard, you know, misinformation elsewhere, or you know, if they've had the the chance to visit when they were a young child, for example, you know, they may have a very unique perspective that's individual to them as to what they think the history of the inn is, what it's like, what the ghosts are like, what the stories involved are like.

And suddenly it's like you give them that aspect, but then it's like you've opened up every single archive and it's just like stepping into this total new world where you just really understand and feel just the full weight of that, of the place, the mystery of the place.

You give them so much more than I think people would expect.

And you know, I think you just get that sense of you for the first time, You really do understand and know the place, which is again, just as a credit to you both as the researchers and the writers and how you brought this together that it is so, so well written.

It's the, the, the layout of it, the, the threads that hold it together, the, the way that the timeline builds.

You just suddenly come away with just this much richer, deeper understanding of the people, the place, the sense of the, of the, the mystery and the character of the building.

Everything is there.

And by the end of the the book, for me, it's just that wonderful sigh of, you know, wonder and awe, you know, the one, that kind of the sigh that warms your body and you just think, Oh my God, I want some more of that, you know, when it's just, you know, you've been given everything and you just think I'd love some more of that because it's just wonderful.

Well.

This is not the end.

And I was going to ask you, I mean obviously since you finished the book, do you have any follow up plans?

Do you have any other things on the cards that you are hoping to to kind of come out with?

So as you can imagine, writing a book that, so the history part to me was the hardest part to write because everything in the history part can be fact checked.

So to me that was really difficult to write and it's very important to get it correct.

So it was very stressful doing it in six months.

And I said to Corinne, I'm never doing this again.

I'm done.

I don't want to do any more books about this.

I just want to right some fictional books.

So I have actually started my next fictional book.

And then once we'd finished it and the stress had gone, I said.

I've had an idea.

She said, well, I said there's going to be another two books.

She goes, really, I'm like.

Yeah.

So I won't divulge too much into what the ideas are possibly next Christmas, although I'm not being held to that cringe.

Just to let you know, there's no time frame.

Possibly next Christmas, the next book will be released and then sometime the following year, possibly spring autumn time.

The following year, we will release the following book depending on how it goes.

But for the time being I just want to concentrate on another project that I've started before I dive back into the Jamaica in because I'm not sure if it's given me PTSD writing the book or something, but I just need a break.

You need biscuits and chocolate.

Absolutely, and cheesy crisps.

But the book is doing so incredibly well.

I mean, people who I speak to and feedback that I've had because obviously I've written about it for the, the podcast website on its blog and I gave my own take on the book.

You know, I know other people who since then have have bought books and read it and I get feedback through the website and they are just blown away.

The, the, again, the care, the attention, the research.

And for anybody who is at this point on the fence about whether they want to pick up the book and have a have a read, I just want to say it may be one of the best decisions you make because it is a really, really wonderful book.

And I read a lot of paranormal books.

I read a lot of paranormal history books.

I read a lot of history books.

I just read a lot.

And this is one of the best books I think I've ever read in terms of just that sense of like I was trying to to share earlier, just that sense of you feel as if you are being taken right back to that moment.

You just again, I'm kind of lost for words.

It's just that sense of it, it starts to run through your blood, you know, you're breathing the, the history with those people.

I mean, it's just incredible.

And I'm getting quite emotional as I say that because genuinely, I'm saying that with every fibre of my being, like I said.

So we have to finish with you telling us how we can get copies, you know, our hands on a copy, if we haven't already, where the best place is to go, where the best place is to to kind of follow what you're doing to see what is coming in the future.

Just where basically we can find out as much as we can about this wonderful book, what your plans are and how to get maybe several copies for ourselves because, you know, it's that good.

So you can buy the book on my website, whichislisaholman.co.uk and we will sign it for you.

And if you want it personalized, we'll do that for you as well to keep up to date with any future release that we're planning.

It would be on my Facebook page, which which is Lisa Holman, hyphen author, and that's where you'd find you'd find any future releases.

Also the Jamaica Inn gift shop.

Yeah, and they're available in Jamaica.

They're.

Selling out it's.

Yeah, they've been very popular.

But Lisa's designed some new covers, especially for Halloween, Christmas and birthdays.

Special occasion.

They they're stunning, they're hardback and they're absolutely stunning.

And This is why I was saying, you know, don't be afraid if you want to get your hands on several copies, because I'm not kidding when I say I look at them and I think I need one of every every single one design.

I mean, they just pop that, that kind of change, that little slight subtle difference with the colouring, but then also the obviously the metal frames in the corners.

Again, people who haven't seen them will not know this.

They just look exquisite.

So this is where I would say just go and have a look at Lisa's website because when you see the the books again, you just see that care and attention, the cover design, the lettering, the the changes that you've made for these special editions.

It, it just shows the love that you've got for the book and the place, you know, it's just incredible.

And like I said, it just makes me, you know, wish I had a lottery ticket because I think I'd buy all of them.

But then in multiple copies, you know, but you can't.

You've got someone, some books that you just don't want to bend the spine.

Do you know what I mean?

So I'm hoping listeners will be thinking, yeah, I get, I get what Michelle is saying.

You just don't want to spoil.

The you also, you get them from the website, you get a lovely bookmark that's designed by Lisa as well.

It's she's just so clever.

It all of it is so annoying.

I, I will make sure to include those links.

So again, I'm just hoping that this encourages you if you, if you are on the fence about taking a look, buying a copy, just click on the links, have a look.

You will not be disappointed.

They will make a wonderful gift for yourself is what I will say first and foremost.

But you know, we've got Christmas, we've got Halloween, we've got birthdays.

You know, this is a book that I know so many people will treasure and love.

So there will be someone in your life, I'm sure, who will, who will be eager and thankful for a little gift of of the book in their stocking or something.

Is it worth adding that the Christmas cover and the Halloween cover?

They'll only ever have to be 50 copies printed.

That's it.

So very limited.

Very limited, yeah.

So get your hands on them very quickly then is what I would suggest, because your books are quite literally selling out like hotcakes, aren't they?

Yeah, pretty soon, pretty soon we will need to send support care packages because most folding of those maps could finish you off.

It's a main.

Diet.

It's honestly because some sweet cake as we're doing it.

Yeah, it's it's amazing how many Malteses you can stick in your mouth when you're folding a plan.

Whatever gets you through the task, ladies, Whatever gets you through the task.

If you haven't tried them, those lovely Marks and Spencer's versions of the the Maltesers are delicious.

Have you ever tried them Multiples.

Oh my gosh, they are divine Marks and Spencers.

If you're listening, I will take them in bulk.

I'm not joking either.

They are divine.

They are really delicious.

Yeah.

Honestly, thank you so much for your time.

I I, I'm so enthusiastic about the book.

I just love it.

And I think you have done such an incredible job.

So thank you for just kind of coming along and sharing more about it so that if you know, people listening haven't seen it, haven't heard about it, you know, I'm hoping they they come along and, and see what it's about and take the time just to click on the website and have a look because, you know, as I said a few times, it is a book so worthwhile, so, so worthwhile picking up and buying.

So thank you for for coming along and talking about it today.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Yeah, it's been an honour.

Thank you so much.

Bye everybody.

Thank you for joining us on this journey into the unknown.

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