446. What Every Podcaster Can Steal from 'How I Built This'

0:05 Good morning podcasting Morning Chat. Today is Tuesday, February 3rd, 2026, and today it's our Obsession Worthy podcast series where we're unpacking why How I Built This is so bingeable and what everyday podcasters can borrow from its storytelling and its strategies. So if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button on the left hand side of the screen and share it. However, Clubhouse lets you. And if you're catching us via podcast, YouTube, LinkedIn, etcetera, please share this with a fellow podcaster. And now give us about 30 seconds and we'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here.

1:20 Good morning again podcasting. Morning Chad. Thanks so much for being here. I am your host Mark Ronick and on stage with me here on Clubhouse. My Co hosts we have Ralph Estep, Jonathan Howard, Ashley Feller, Nick Nalback, Sid Meadows, Dr. Fay and BC Babbles has just joined us over on the Riverside feed today. You may realize wait, it's Tuesday. Where were you guys yesterday? Well, as you may have may know or recall from last week, Friday I took off because I was at a retreat. I'm a volunteer for a summer camp that is part of the CMTA. This is an organization that is raising money and building community for those that have this disease called CMT Charcot Marie Tooth Disease, and it's a disease where it affects people. It's a neurological disease that affects people's extremities. Basically, their brain doesn't send the right signals to wrists, hands, fingers, ankles, feet and toes. Once that happens, the muscles start to kind of deteriorate because they're not really being used properly. So that's the disease.

2:42 And I am a volunteer at the summer camp. I think I'm going to be doing it twice this year. It's a week long summer camp and this past weekend it was a retreat to plan for this coming summer and everything went smoothly as far as getting there. I left Thursday, got there, everything ran on time and had a great weekend. And then came Sunday. I was supposed to leave Harrisburg, PA Sunday at 12:14 PM was the scheduled time. So I got on that plane and that was going to take me from PA to Charlotte and then I was going to have a 2 hour layover and then go from Charlotte to Asheville, NC. So I got to Charlotte no problem. Flight took off relatively on time, got to Charlotte, prepared myself for my 2 plus hour layover but I should have prepared myself for something a little bit longer. The flight, I can't remember the exact time, I think around 445 was the scheduled take off and it was first delayed about 1/2 hour.

3:52 Which whatever, that's fine I can handle that. Then we got on the plane and sat there for a while. I actually took notes so that I can be as succinct as possible. What ended up happening was the pilot gets on and by the way, super friendly pilot almost to a fault. It felt like that he could have a podcast, very personable, felt like he was talking directly to you, but man, he was taking forever to get to the problem. It was kind of like, hey, I have good news, bad news. And then he sat and talked and talked and talked about the good news and what was delaying us but eventually got fixed. But then there was the bad news.

4:37 The bad news was the fuel tank was over fueled. When you talk about the fuel plus the passengers and all the things the pilot says, this is usually an easy fix. We send out a truck that will remove enough of the fuel so that we can be at weight, but that truck was broken, so we had to get off the plane and then board another one. I'm going to pause right here and just say if you're new to the podcasting morning chat, I want you to know that this isn't normally how we do things. We do normally just get right into it with podcasting stuff. But I wanted to give you an idea of my weekend, why we didn't show up here yesterday.

5:25 So we D boarded the plane and they told us it would be relatively quick. And I take that with a grain of salt because how quick can it be to roll another plane up to our gate and be able to just jump on? And I was right. I think it took maybe upwards of almost 2 hours to get the new plane. We get on that new plane, sit down and again it starts feeling like we're waiting a little too long. The captain friendly guy comes back on and he says well we have a new issue with fuel. This time we have enough but it is lopsided. So he says no problem, we're going to bring out a truck that will balance things out, fill up the other tank and then we'll be on our way.

6:15 He also said we might have to de ice at that point too because in Charlotte they had record-breaking winter weather. At this point, I don't know, It's probably 7:00 PM. So we're waiting and waiting. Eventually, I'm talking about at least 30 minutes, the truck comes and does its thing to fuel and make everything. Even then, we had to wait for that de icer. Oh, side note, the reason why it took so long for the fuel truck to come, it got stuck in the snow and ice. So then we had to wait for the de ICER. Why they didn't have it there, I don't know, but maybe it was de icing other planes.

6:56 That took another 45 minutes. By the time they de iced it was 831. The pilot gets on at 836. Ladies and gentlemen, the good news is we are fueled up. We have been de iced, but unfortunately we can't go anywhere because I have timed out. In other words, pilots have a certain shift that they have to stick to and they can't go anytime longer than that shift. He had been on since 5:00 AM. And FAA regulations say after your 12 plus hour shift, whatever that number is, is, I don't know what what exactly that number is.

7:42 After that shift, they the pilot is no longer allowed to fly because it's unsafe. They might be too tired at that point. I'm surprised at the transparency. That's something that you don't really associate with a pilot saying I've timed out he that's very transparent of him. And maybe he really had no choice at that point because there was a pretty frustrated flight of passengers. We were not happy. Although there are some people that seem to be fine and laughing throughout the whole thing. I guess just because it's so comical. The series of errors we literally missed his window by roughly 2 minutes from when they finished de icing and gave us the go ahead. So ladies and gentlemen, we have to de board and we're going to find you a new captain.

8:31 The rest of the crew is actually OK. They have not timed out yet so we're going to try to find you a new captain and we'll let you know but you are going to have to leave the plane. So we de boarded once again and now you have a large group of people who are up in arms really upset trying to figure out what's going on. A bunch of us are just kind of grouped at the desk by the gate asking for answers. And they're telling us there are two people there and they're telling us, ladies and gentlemen, please, you know, be patient. We are working on it. There is a new crew that's coming. Now we we can't tell you exactly what time they'll get here, but they're coming. Meanwhile, behind them is that screen and it says this flight, Flight 177 is taking off at 9:00 AM the next day.

9:20 But they're sitting there saying no, no, there's something, you know, we're we're going to bring a crew here. Somebody eventually points out, but why does the app say that we're not leaving until 9:00 AM? And they kind of look cock eyed and wait what? And at one point I'm like, yeah, look at the monitor behind you. So then they start scrambling. They go and talk to other, I don't know who they go to talk to and come back and they say, Oh yeah, we can't get you another crew. The flight is delayed, quote UN quote until tomorrow morning, 9:00 AM. Now, to me, that is not a delay anymore. That's a cancellation. But because what they're doing is they're saying, well, no, this is a delay because it's the same flight. It's 1777, it's American Airlines. Yes, I'm calling you out, American Airlines. And because of that, tomorrow it is just a delay. It's not a cancellation.

10:15 So therefore, you know why they did that? Because now they don't have to give us any hotel vouchers, pay for our hotel overnight. They don't have to give us food vouchers, which is usually what happens when a flight gets cancelled. That's usually the common practice. So it was just such a lousy move on their part. I feel they could have done something. Now, I don't know. The last part of the story is they encouraged anybody who wanted to maybe switch to a different flight or just complain. They invited us to go to the customer service counter, which was just down the hallway. And I walked over there and it, you know, there was like probably 50 people in line and I have a feeling maybe they were doing some compensation sometime, but I did not want to stay any longer. I'm going to pause there because I think Dr. has a question. This is usually the time when people start getting on Twitter and start, hey, American Airlines, you know, and then all of a sudden American Airlines has this great epiphany, hey, here's a thought.

11:24 Why don't we just comp all of you or something like that. You know, usually Twitter is the thing for that. Yeah, it is. And I didn't feel like dealing with that. I know I could have. And I don't like being that person if I don't have to be. And at that point, I knew it wasn't going to change anything right then and there, and it would take a while if they were going to respond. So I got a hotel in Charlotte. Now, some of you might be saying, but Mark, Charlotte and Asheville aren't that far away. Why didn't you just, like, rent a car and just drive home? The roads were still pretty lousy in Charlotte and in Asheville as well. And I wasn't going to risk driving late at night in a rental by myself in bad weather conditions.

12:07 And my bag was on the plane and I didn't want to deal with trying to get it back and spend probably another two hours or something like that in the airport. So I got a hotel and thankfully and very kindly, the organization, the CMTA organization, they paid for my hotel. I got to my hotel room probably by like 11:00 PM. Meanwhile, I was supposed to be home at like 6 O clock and I had nothing on me, no toiletries, no change of clothes. I got myself a toothbrush and toothpaste from the hotel. I took a shower, went to bed and I did change my flight. By the way, I didn't leave at 9.

12:48 AMI decided I'm going to sleep a little bit and try to catch up on sleep. I got the next flight out, which was at noon and I was watching by the way, flight 1777 to see if they got out on time. They were delayed two hours, so they didn't even leave at 9:00 AM. They ended up leaving at 11 AM. So those people on that flight must have been beside themselves. So that's why Monday didn't happen. I didn't ask the team to take over. I just thought let's just all take a day and we'll start fresh today. So thank you for listening to my story. Like I said, don't normally go into a long winded story about a personal story, but every once in a while I'll share something and I thought this one was worth sharing. Yes, Ralph, you have a question.

13:36 So well, Mark, we're happy to have you back. First of all, got a couple comments from people who missed us yesterday and it's nice to get those comments. But I guess here's here's a take away. What can we learn from this? What customer service benefit could we learn from this? Because I love your story, Mark, but there's a lot of customer service benefits in there that we could apply to podcasting. If we're offering our listeners something and we're not delivering, that's kind of what the airline did to you. They offered you a flight from one point to the other. What is the big take away Mark that that all of us can learn about customer service related to your excellent adventure? On one hand, I think Dr. called that out, the transparency, right? Like I'm being transparent right now with my audience, and I'm not even talking about the subject that we're here to talk about yet, right? Like I'm just being transparent so people understand why we weren't here for them as usual on a Monday morning. So I would say the transparency is probably really helpful in some ways, even though I by the end of Sunday night had just lost my mind.

14:38 But I was able to be patient, I believe longer than I would have been normally because of that transparency. So that would be 1 big take away for me, Ralph. I don't know if anybody else has any takeaways from that, but there you go. So with that, I'd say let's get a let's wipe the slate clean and dive into this week's Obsession Worthy Podcast series. So this is what we do every week on the PMC. We've been doing this series, like I said, called Obsession Worthy Podcast. This is where Jonathan Howard and our team breaks down podcasts that people genuinely can't stop listening to.

15:22 And it's not to critique them, but to understand why they work. So we look at things like storytelling structure, emotional hooks, and the small decisions that keep listeners coming back episode after episode. The goal is to translate what makes these podcasts binge worthy into practical ideas that indie podcasters can apply to their own shows, no matter what size of their audience. This isn't We don't believe that the How I Built This or the other shows that we break down. We don't believe it's just because they're big and popular and that's why they do well. They had to get big and popular. We're breaking down really what works so well for those kinds of shows.

16:05 And I'm going to hand the baton to Jonathan and ask Jonathan, please tell us a little bit about the show that we're going to be looking into today. We've got clips to play and all that good stuff. Go for it. Today we are we're talking about how I built this and it's Guy Raz's actual podcast and it's a business podcast about iconic brands and how they've built their brands up, what they've done brands like Airbnb, Spanx, Warby Parker, and today's episode is about Taylor Guitars. One thing that we're going to do today a little bit is we're going to look at some of the lessons from the podcast as well, because it's a business podcast and then what we can take from the podcast, but we are going to be talking about Taylor Guitars today.

16:47 Each episode is really a deep dive into the ordinary people that build these extraordinary businesses, and it's a very almost cinematic dive into what's happening, what's going on, the failures, the pivots, the strokes of luck, all of those moments. So that's what we're going to be talking about today, How I built this by Guy Raz's podcast. And the one thing that this podcast does overall, which helps its stickiness is it has an emotional hook. Every episode has this emotional hook, and it really is hope because that reminds the listeners that every success story starts an uncertainty that requires grit, and it requires people to actually, you know, work hard to get to where they're going. So it gives people hope.

17:33 And that is the one thing that is definitely throughout all of his podcasts. We're going to start today with the cold open. So that's clip one. All right, let's do it. One of the surprises Taylor Swift pulled off during her era's tour was to play an old guitar that, for many of her fans, was instantly recognizable. It's painted bright blue and decorated with orange koi fish swimming around the center and down the. Fret board. That guitar is so distinctive that for a time it was on display at the Country Music Hall of Fame. It was the guitar Taylor used. To record her. Album Speak Now, but when it quietly disappeared from its display case right before the era's tour launched, Swifty's had a hunch that Taylor would bring it out on stage.

18:20 And when she did, it was a big deal, especially for today's guests, because they made that guitar and gave it to her as a gift. And as you will hear, the connection between Taylor Swift and Taylor guitars, No relation by the way. Goes way back, back before stadiums, before sold out tours, before most people knew who Taylor Swift was. And we'll get there. What was really good about that cold open that we can take from it is it starts with something that the audience actually already cares about. And that was the key in that and what actually helped us get interested in. Not us, but, you know, more people interested in the episode because it's opening with a story about the distinctive guitar Taylor Swift. It's pop culture fans are all about that. And that opens up the audience for this podcast because if you just talk about Taylor guitars, you're talking about having OK guitar people and a couple other gearheads, other musicians interested in the podcast.

19:26 When you start with something that's pop culture and iconic, you're opening up the audience to a whole lot more people. It also creates A curiosity gap, which is something that's really important in podcasts. But go ahead and Mark. Yeah, I mean, Alex was just putting in the chat here. It's about Taylor. That's the hook. And yes, of course, I think there's something to be said about that. And it's more than just about Taylor, though. And I think what's cool about the cold open and what they're talking about is it actually is less about Taylor and more about the guitar, right? And sure, her fans are going to be really interested to hear about that. But I also believe that musicians and fans of this show in general, how I built this, fans of that show, I think that it the cold open builds this intrigue. It builds this interest in.

20:15 You know what this story is behind the guitar. So I think it's a little of both. But of course, we can't deny the fact that, you know, if Taylor Swift is mentioned in this and this is about something that she owns, that her fans know very well, of course there's going to be a draw in that regard as well. As a business guy, like this was really intriguing to me because I help people every day do this kind of thing and create a business and see the vision come to light. So to me, I was engaged from the beginning. I was like, this is going to be great. I want to understand and I could, I understand the nuances of building capital and figuring all that stuff out. So that was it was really cool for me. So it was it really connected because I'm not big, I'm not really a musician, but from the business side, it really connected to me. So that's why I think this is a great podcast. Ralph says he's not a musician, but we know that he's been creating songs using AI to help him. But I know you're also writing the lyrics. So I would say that, Ralph, that would make you a bit of a musician now.

21:13 I used to play bass guitar in tuba, but I do write some lyrics. And thank you for bringing that up, Mark. Thank you. I appreciate. That no problem. Tuba in what? Bass guitar in tuba, when you're a big guy, when you're young, the band director looks at you and goes, you could play the two. I'm like, why? He's like, well, because you're the biggest guy around, so you can carry the so by default. Anyway, let's get back to it, shall we? Go ahead, Jonathan. The cold open, it creates curiosity and that curiosity keeps people around and the other thing is this is the cold open, but it is also the story really doesn't happen. This story doesn't happen until about 55 minutes into the episode. So people know it's coming. They can.

21:54 Those that may have just tuned in to hear that story are going to have to stick around and wait for a little bit. But it is to something that keeps people interested. And then, you know, with it being a pop culture kind of thing, that's signaling that it's not going to be a boring episode. That's one of the things that it does, is it really signals that it's not going to be boring. Can we get some clarity real quick? You said that they don't get to the story until around 55 minutes in. And so that would somebody who hasn't listened to this whole episode might be wondering, well, then what the heck are they going to be talking about for 55 minutes? And you know, is that almost misleading your audience? It's not misleading because it's really talking about what they talked about in that cold open is the guitar itself. And we're going to learn all about how this company started from the ground up and started making guitars and how these kids that were in high school started this business and then all the way up to when they met Taylor Swift, who was before Taylor Swift was famous.

22:55 And that's kind of where the story with that starts. So that's about 55 minutes in their process here. And I'm. So we're going to hear a lot about the business. Yep. OK, cool. And that makes a lot of sense. And especially regular listeners of this show would understand that coming in that, yeah, we're going to learn about all about the business itself. And yeah, we'll get to that, that part of the story as well. I get that. And by the way, I wanted to say BC chiming in BC you were a choir guy. I got into choir junior year and the same thing for senior year, and I kicked off my high school's show choir, which was a lot of fun and elevated into opera and undergrad. But yeah, no instruments for me.

23:36 Wow, no physical. Instruments, well your instruments are is your vocal cords I would say. It's very true, yeah. That in the surprise, I'm always curious to, to learn about people's musical talents and I, I don't know why BC I just wouldn't have thought you were a singer. But now I'm curious and I'm going to want to hear something at some point. I remember a few years ago when Dr. was newer to the community, I remember we ended up learning that she was a singer and we even got her to sing a little bit for us. You are crazy. When I was in 7th and 8th grade, I was the lead singer of the jazz band that our middle school had and we travelled all over the place, went to the Kennedy Center, we went to, we went to everywhere.

24:22 These little kids just blowing trumpets and singing their hearts out. It was crazy. Very cool. All right, we're going to pause real quick because we have a couple of people that have joined us or want to join us on stage. Want to just make sure they didn't want to add anything or they're just up here to contribute during the rest of the show. Janae, you're first. Go for it. Good morning. Pretty cool, cold open because it really intrigues and pulls people in and I love the direction they're going. And yes, I did sing back in the day as well. Oh. Wow, we got lots of singers here. OK, fair, cool A. Lot easier for me to sing than to play guitar like that. That was a lot harder. Oh yeah. To learn, yeah. What was your go to song that you sang? What was it?

25:05 It's Kryptonite by three doors down, OK? Or Bon Jovi's living on the prayer. OK. There you go. Love it. All right, I'm going to hand the baton back to Jonathan. By the way, good morning to our live audience. Lots of people here this morning. Great to see all of you. Thanks for being here. And Jonathan, the floor is yours again. One thing that I wanted to talk about with the cold open is how we can make a cold open with without a celebrity connection. But it's cold open really work for us because it allows us to create this repeatable strategy at the beginning of our shows. It makes your content shareable and it get creates relevancy in your in your podcast right off the bat. So it can make your show feel bigger, sharper, more connected and more current.

25:53 So trying to come up with a cold open that's going to connect with people. I think it's very important for us us to do in our shows so that we can have something, one that's a repeatable strategy, so we can always have it there, but also something that allows us to connect with something bigger than our show necessarily. I definitely wanted to point that out for people. And then we can jump into Clip 2, which is really every episode of How I Built. This is a version of each company's origin story. So we're going to get the origin story of Taylor Guitars, but we get this origin story in a really succinct way. So that's the next clip. 11th grade, 2 weeks into it I had seen a guitar that I wanted to buy at a store.

26:38 It's cost 175 bucks. I didn't have that money so I thought well heck I'll just make a guitar. So I went over to the wood shop and asked the teacher if I could join late and I made my first guitar there. So there you go. That is the origin story of where he made his first guitar and it adds a human level. So I didn't have $175.00. So I thought I'd make a guitar that is the origin of Taylor guitars. And that's an impressive origin story in in that quick of a time. But go ahead, Ralph. All right, I just want to paint a picture for everybody who's not watching this on on on YouTube because you have to do this at one point. Jonathan is sitting here, he's got a beautiful little dog on his lap, little Husky.

27:22 And this Husky is having a great time while Jonathan's trying to talk. So I want to encourage everybody come join us where you can actually see us because it is a very cool thing to watch Jonathan do this as he's got this Husky in his lap and the little husky's looking up and saying, daddy, what are we doing here? And and Jonathan's being so patient with him. So anyway, I wanted to give everybody who doesn't hear this or doesn't see it on video the audio to go look at this because this is very cool. Yeah, that's Jack Frost, the dog. Jack Frost is here this morning. Hey, Jonathan. Are we talking about like a cold open? I call it a Stinger. Are we talking about the Stinger of the show? Well, that leads me to a question because I have a couple of clients that like those stingers.

28:03 How long is too long when we talk about a Stinger? Specifically from clip one the the cold open that we played. I'm asking also for my own sake because sometimes mine have to go a little longer in order to get the jest of the of the story. If somebody were to ask me how long is, should a podcast episode be my answer? Well, yeah, it depends. Or as long as you can keep people's interest, if you are a really good storyteller, you could make that much longer than the cold open that we heard a few minutes ago. But ultimately, you know, you got to make sure that you're keeping interest and you are keeping things moving too. You'd, I don't believe dragging it out is going to be any help to you or your audience.

28:52 So I would say, I don't know, 2 minutes at the most at the most. Oh, if you're actually doing an intro to your episode, yeah, I feel like that's. Appropriate. That feels long to me. I'm trying to keep it under thirty 3540 seconds somewhere in there. That's what I'm trying to keep it. Admittedly, I edit the fire out of that. I'll take some stuff out that they'll hear later on in the show. My rule of thumb is I usually don't like anything in the 1st 5 minutes. If I'm going to use that Stinger to open up the show, I will look beyond 5 minutes of the opening of the show and start looking for the Stinger there and then put it in front.

29:34 Just to be clear, I did say 2 minutes at the most, right? Like, I don't, I don't think we want to go any longer than that. But yeah, I think 30 to 60 seconds is ideal, OK. Thank you. DRI would also look at like a show like 2020. I mean they do the best at this and like Mark said, you can go 2 minutes, but it's about the clip more than it is the length. You have to find that great breaking point. I would look at other shows like that and see what their times are because I don't know if there's a necessarily the right time. But yeah, it shouldn't go forever, but a couple of minutes won't hurt it, I don't think. Yeah. And some people may be saying, oh, that's interesting that Alex is suggesting a TV show. But I think there's a lot we can learn from intros, from lots of different mediums.

30:22 And I yeah, I agree with you. I think 2020 does a fantastic job of that. And Nick just put in the chat Diary of the CEO crushes it with their intros, which is a lot different than the one that Jonathan played earlier. That's more of a montage of the episode itself with lots of like rapid fire questions and some pieces of answers, etcetera, where this one is a narration, this one is the host giving us a setup before diving into the episode. So yeah, you got to find different styles and adapt the one that speaks most to you and go all in on that and see see how that works for you and your audience. Let's go to Janae, who I think wanted to chime in as well.

31:04 You know, the cold open is again, for the audience that's already subscribed to the podcast. Or maybe is it for attracting new people because somebody that's already subscribed to the podcast, they're going to sit through everything because they love the podcast so much? So what are we? What's the purpose we're serving with that cold open? I think that's something that we need to think about and put that into mind. Thanks. And here's where I'm going to put on my video versus audio hat because I think you have to understand whether you're audio first or video first. If you're video first, I think you got to scrunch that cold open and make it much shorter. If you're audio first, I think you've got a little bit more liberty there.

31:47 But honestly, if you're video first, I think you got like 15 to 20 seconds. I think you need to narrow it down. But but again, know where your audience is first. Like what is your intention? I just feel like we've got some people that do both audio and video. I just think it's important to bring that to mind because it depends also on where this is being released. Absolutely. Thank you, Ralph and Dr. Did you have anything else you wanted to add? I saw you had your hand up for a second. I forgot what I was going to say. No. Problem. No problem, Yvonne, did you want to say something? Welcome to the stage. In response to Janae, I think that cold open is just to set the scene for what that episode is.

32:27 I appreciate it even on the podcasts that I listen to or watch where I'm a regular listener and I love what they do all the time, but it gives me instant context about what I'm going to be watching. And so the juicier the better. I find that a lot of the ones like Diary of Aceo, they will, they'll clip several little juicy bits together and then they and then a lot of the the podcast that I'll watch on YouTube, they'll come to a thing where they'll ask a question and then the guest starts to answer and then they cut it off and leave you hanging. Absolutely, yeah.

33:07 And I love that move. I mean, it's sometimes might be a little frustrating for a listener, but at the same time, that's the idea. It's it's building the intrigue, the mystery, and they're going to want to wait and find out with the rest of what that guest had to say. So yeah, it's a good strategy for sure. And people still want to chime in here. So we will keep it going. BC what did you want to add? I wonder from a technical standpoint if it would be a fun idea one day to have people who do audio and video submit their openings and we can reflecting me. Like does this work for both iterations? That could be a fun topic for a future Episode I. Love that idea. Yeah, absolutely.

33:48 Thank you. BC Let's write that one down, team and we'll play with that. I love that idea, Dr. Go ahead. You remembered. OK. I do remember Janae had asked the question, is it for the new listeners or is it for your fans? And I don't think there's an either or. I think it can be for both. When I do one of those stingers for my clients, I kind of have a formula that I work with and I usually put anything that's contrary. So anything that starts with, you know, most people or I used to or something like that where they're going to talk about this, but they do that something like that, right?

34:32 So that's, I usually like to look for something like that in every episode where, you know, I have to put the Stinger because I always think that's a, that's usually a pretty good open. But As for Janae's question, I think it's to entice people to stay around and also for the new people to kind of get a feel for what you're going to hear. I think that's fair. And I want to just say, Janae, I, I kind of was feeling when you were asking the question that it was rhetorical, but I maybe I misread it. And so please forgive me if you were looking for an answer. And thankfully, that's one of the the beautiful things of having a community being a part of this podcast is that others can chime in as well.

35:16 OK, Jonathan, going back to you, I know I realized we played clip 2 and we were still kind of all in clip one mode. So really that clip was about I didn't have $175.00, so I thought I'd just make a guitar, which was the start of the entire business. So this story is kind of where everything becomes human. It's not about a big business, it's about one person and what they did. And when we talk about the human aspects of stories, that's what keep people actually interested in the stories. So we have to remember that for our podcast is that people connect with the human part of it. So the more human, the more people are going to connect.

35:58 And this is a real life story. This is a kid, a teenager saying I'm going to build a guitar. And that's where his business literally started. He built several guitars while he was in high school from in woodshop and that's where he learned. That's why his guitars are actually different. It's a real human story. And those moment moments of humanity is what keep people listening. That's the main thing on that clip. All right, so last week we talked about the messy middle and song Exploder. And this podcast uses a a specific format of a story as well, where a lot of the nitty gritty is in this messy middle, as it was called, and songy exploder. But really what it is here is the messy moments.

36:38 It focuses on moments of failure, reflection, and things that lead to the final breakthrough. So in this third clip, we're going to talk a little bit about that one of those moments. Ours brace tops for 10 guitars, then move all 10 to the next step. And the idea being while I have my bench set up to do this work, I want to do a bunch of it because it's going to be more efficient. And I met an older gentleman that made guitars one at a time. He he did. He would start a guitar and then a couple days later he'd start another guitar. He had this little miniature one man assembly line to where every couple days a guitar would come off the line, another guitar would get started and five or ten guitars would all move a step forward.

37:21 And I'd say, well, OK, you want to make the bridge for the guitar? How many bridges do you make? He goes, well, if I need one, I make one. You don't make 10. I don't need 10. I need one. Yeah, but Auggie, you know, when I make a bridge, I set up and I make all of those, I get almost nine of them for free. And he just looked at me and he said, Bob, what would you rather have, 10 half done guitars or one done guitar? And that changed my life. It changed how you how you start to make guitars. It changed everything about. That's really interesting. And what I'm actually appreciating about that clip, besides the content itself, is I like the background music. I think it adds something. I I think it helps keep things moving, keep things engaging. But a couple people want to chime in as well, Jonathan, and then we'll get your take.

38:09 Ralph, did you have a question? Yeah, the thing I wanted to point out to content creators is what he's really talking about here is building a system. And I think we all can learn from that. He's he's looking at ways, he's doing things now and he's saying there's a better way to do this. There's a there's a more refined way. And when I work with people every day, that's what I do. I help them build systems. And I think that's a huge take away for all of us. Understand the system, be willing to tweak your system and really work it. Try to make it work best for you because you may be doing it one way and then you're saying, wait a minute, but there's a better way. And we always have to be willing to challenge where we're at it. There's a great book out there called Sacred Cows Make the Best Burgers, and a lot of us live in that sacred cow space. And then what we find is that sometimes there's better ways to do things.

38:53 And that's what I loved about this clip because he's being vulnerable. He's opening up about this is the way I was doing it, but now I'm realizing that there might be a better way. And I just think that's a huge take away for any of us in the content creator realm. Leave it to the guy who owns Angus cows to mention a sacred cow book. Thank you, Ralph and Dr. Did you have something? I put my hand up even before you mentioned the music because I I wanted to mention the music as well. I think it would have been more effective if it was acoustic guitar music. I didn't get acoustic guitar music from that tiny little clip. And that's a fairpoint to try to keep it to the theme itself. Yeah, I like that.

39:39 Creatively speaking. I think that's a that's a smart idea. Thank you, Dr. All right, Jonathan, So what do you want to share about that clip? A couple of things about this clip. One, the music was one of the things that I was going to point out because he does. Throughout the episode you will get little clips of music that move the podcast along, that keep people interested with a little bit of something extra to listen to. But what I really wanted to talk about is would you rather have 10 half ton guitars or one ton guitar? And I wanted us to change that because this is a backbone principle that works for all businesses. It's not inspirational. It's like operational. It's what makes cash actually happen in this business. So what I wanted to ask was if you change guitars to podcasts? And you know, what can podcasters learn from this? Most people think quality scales by trying harder, but this wasn't the case.

40:33 This was quality scaled when you reduce the chaos. So can you reduce chaos in your process? Can you create, as Ralph was saying, can you create a system in your podcast that's going to help you really do things better, get rid of the chaos and things that we're doing? Because I know, I know, even in my podcast, I've got chaos that happens. So what could you do to reduce chaos in your podcast? Well, look, we've had a little chaos here today, right? And I'd say the first place you can go is to your editing software and tighten things up, remove the things that feel a little chaotic like we will be doing today and make it sound a little more smooth that way.

41:15 So that's one way you could certainly do that. As far as additional chaos, that's a I'm not sure how else you would do that. I feel like editing is probably your best place to go. And guys, you're you're missing the underlying tone of the whole entire thing. This is DRS wheelhouse. This is the whole thing of batching. She wants to batch. That's the moral of the story. What? Not quite, but yeah. I'm giving, I'm saying a hard time, but I mean like when you're making 5 whatever bridges versus one. I'm just thinking Dr. wants to batch, that's all. Got it. Okay, whatever that meant. But there's a problem with that though. And if you're doing that for your podcast, that can be problematic because you might not be as sharp as you need to be.

42:04 You not, you might not be ready to go as you need to be if you do this batching, because I'll be honest with you, I do a Daily Show. One of my shows is a Daily Show, and I try to batch record those. And I'm finding that by the time I get to that seventh episode of the day, I'm worn out. And so I've got to think about the system and say, is my audience getting the best Ralph at that point, or should I break this up into a couple pieces? Sure. From a production standpoint, that's great. You know, bang, bang, bang, bang, they're all done. But at the end of the day, is that system working for the audience? Because that's what we really need to be focused in on. Is the system working for the audience? Ralph, at what point do you feel that it was a little less than the episode before?

42:46 When you're batching 7, do you get to 4 and say that wasn't that wasn't as good as three, you know, do you know what I'm saying? At what point do you start? Sure. And it's it's funny you mention that because I'm working with the speaking coach now and her and I were going through this and she said one of the ways you can change that dynamic is to get up and move around in between. So one of the things when I was recording yesterday, DRI intentionally said I'm going to put 10 minutes between now. My shows are between 10 and 15 minutes per show. But I literally got up, walked around my studio, took 10 minute break, throw some stuff in the D script and all that sort of thing because it made me more fresh. And So what I noticed yesterday Dr. is I didn't feel that same that that lack of energy.

43:27 I didn't feel like I was neglecting that. That last show, I actually felt pretty energized by it, but it was just changing. But again, it was a system. Instead of just sitting in the chair and just keep rolling, I got up, I moved around, I walked down the hall, got a couple water, that sort of thing, just to change the dynamic, change the system a little bit. And I think that's what we all can learn from is our systems. The way we do things are great, but sometimes tweaking them a little bit you might get some real benefit from that. Yeah, agreed. Take it away, Jonathan. All right. So the last thing that I was going to say for all podcasters is as a podcaster, do we want more output that Neverlands or less output that's quality and completed? Because completion creates the feedback that we're looking for and that allows us to improve and improvement obviously leads to higher quality. So, you know, we got to ask that question to ourselves. Do you want more output that might not land, or do we want better quality output?

44:17 And that's where when we get better quality output and actually get completion and improvement, that's how Craft becomes a brand. That's a great point because I'm thinking about nowadays with all the different podcasts that are out there, I now more than ever I believe quality over quantity. Yes, if there is an advantage of making sure you know you're putting out a lot of content and it's might be helpful for the algorithm, etcetera. But ultimately, if you're creating high quality content, the algorithm stuff will fall into place and you don't have to focus on that so much and just focus on serving, giving your audience the best possible content that you can. I think that makes all the difference in the world. I'd rather see people put produce less episodes at higher quality than more at lower Janae I think. Wanted to chime in, go ahead Janae. I'm sorry guys, but I disagree.

45:15 Here's why. Let's say you want to be an Olympian runner. You're not going to get the best quality till you put in the reps Michael Jordan, Steph Curry, how did they get to be the best shooters, best players, They put in the reps And so I, I will go back and 100 times and say, no, you need to output more quantity before you can get to the quality. I think that that's a fairpoint, Janae. I think it's a fairpoint for newer podcasters. So yeah, kudos for bringing that up because yes, I think when you're a new podcaster with very little, let's call it media experience, I think putting in those reps is really important. I think once you're a podcaster that's been doing this for, let's just make up a number for 100 episodes, yeah. Now you might be somebody who gets it, who feels more comfortable and can now start really focusing a lot more on delivering high quality content.

46:18 Actually, I disagree. Again, I disagree. Here's why, right? We as human beings, we are evolving and changing every single day. So after those 100 episodes, you've got some kind of grasp of what it takes, but you still not an expert. Even people like Pat Flynn, even people like Tony Ramas, they're constantly working on their craft. Even though they've done hundreds of podcast episodes, they've done hundreds of speaking engagements, but they're never ever to a point where they have arrived because we've never arrived. We're constantly continually growing with continually getting better. And I don't think we should ever say that we are at the point that we are have the best quality because we're not.

47:01 We're human beings. We're constantly going to grow. And I think quantities could surpass quality every single time. You got to go past the 10,000 hours. You got to go past the 30,000 hours. Taylor Swift did not get here because she's like, I've done this song, I'm good to go. No, we got to do quality. Michael Jackson would do 660 plus takes on the one song. And you say, you know what? There's still something missing so you can't know what the quality is till you get that quantity level. Sorry for being so enthusiastic about it, but it's important. Janae, I appreciate that. I see your point and it does soften my my position there. I still feel like at some point it's more important to focus on the quality versus just spitting out episode after episode after episode.

47:57 That's just that's my opinion, right? And that's the beauty of this show is that we can all share difference of opinions and our audience, the listener can decide what resonates most with them. And I know that Dave in the audience who does lots of podcasts, he's agreeing wholeheartedly with you, Janae. So I'm not, I'm not trying to sway anybody here. I'm just sharing my opinion. Sid wanted to share his. Go ahead, Sid. I'm agreeing with Janae. I'm going to reframe what he said to a degree, which is the term mastery is something that, you know, people look like I'm going to master this. I'm going to master being a coach. I'm going to master the art of editing podcasting, right? I'm going to master something.

48:40 And in theory, that means you're an expert in things. But to become a master at something, to become a master at your craft is a journey that has no destination. To be a true master, you continue to grow, you continue to learn, you continue to reinvent yourself in order to master that. So that's really what I think Janae's talking about is that this has to master the craft of being an excellent podcaster. You have to continue to invest in yourself, continue to learn, continue to try new things, to continue to grow because master true mastery. Achieving that has no true, no destination. It's something you're always working towards. I appreciate the reframe. I'm going to go to Yvonne and then BC. Go ahead, Yvonne.

49:23 I think this is all of a big yes. And, you know, yeah, you want to keep working towards mastery and yes, get in the reps And for me, I, I really adopted the idea of trying to get a little bit better every time. Just, you know, address maybe one thing that I'm going to work on for that next video or or podcast episode. I'm going to try to get my cold open tighter or some aspect of it to try to get it better and and just work on that one thing for that one. I think it's an interesting paradox and that and I think unless I missed it, I don't know if the argument was to ever claim that wherever at the pinnacle of absolute best possible quality, going back to the original topic of what's best for what you're providing to the audience. It's not so much to say that you ever stop learning or stop getting better.

50:22 But to Janae's point, yes, putting in the reps helps you elevate the quality, but when it comes to what you're providing to the audience, you're not providing those. You're not marketing to them with that earlier version of yourself. So I think there's a sense in what Janae's saying with putting in the reps to elevate what you provide, but ultimately your marketing with that quality. Because for me, if I do a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't provide anything of quality to the audience, I'm not going to market myself with that from a marketing standpoint. But it's with that quality content that I can make a lot of use out of that I'm going to push myself with. So it's an interesting dichotomy paradox kind of thing.

51:04 It is from my perspective. Thank you BC and thanks for everybody for sharing their opinions. And Janae, if you don't mind, I want to, are you OK with me putting you on the spot for a second and calling out something, an observation? I know that's a little vague, of course. OK. So listen, I get of all people on this stage and joining us now, I, it doesn't surprise me that that's something that you would encourage is the fact that, you know, getting in the reps and the quantity over quality. And I'll say that you're also probably the person in this room that has the largest backlog of podcast episodes out there. And I'm pointing that out because how do you know if you're improving if you can't keep up with the content that you're trying to put out all the time, right?

51:52 That content needs to be out there in order for you to learn what's resonating with my audience. Or is this a highly downloaded episode? Is this a highly listened to episode? You meaning duration. There is a point where too much quantity it might not be serving you if you can't get that content out there to learn from it. Absolutely. But that's the thing, right? I've already learned from it and that's why the next episode is better. Only to a point, in my opinion. You've learned, right. You've learned the production and how to put it together, but you don't know if the way that you did it is going to resonate with your audience. If you can't, if you can't, output the content as much as you're recording it. I totally understand that.

52:35 And that's the audience's problem, not mine. Yeah. And to the point of Taylor Swift, right. How did we even discover her? Right? There were people that were listening to her when she first started. She might not have been the best. And it took her two years to learn the guitar before she started producing. Like there's, there's people that follow you for the journey and stick around because they love that journey. And there's people that come to find you. Oh my God, this guy's been doing this amazing things like Diary of a CEO. He's been doing it for 10 plus years. Whereas now people jump and point to him because he's done so good. But he wasn't, he couldn't have gone here if he hadn't done the work prior.

53:20 Yes, there's both houses on this topic. And says in the in the chat says that my point true Mark. And then he goes on to say, but both can be true. And I agree with you, Bez. Thank you. And Bez, by the way, also commented a moment ago. Love this show. Opinions just make make it spicy and flavorful. I agree with you, Bez. We are overtime. I want to make sure Jonathan feels like we have wrapped this since he took the time to put all this together for us. And then I want to tell you a little bit about tomorrow's episode. So go for it, Jonathan. I don't feel like we wrapped you because we didn't get to the Taylor Swift part. But hey, it's OK. I'll put in the Facebook group, actually the obsession worthy, and then I'll say, and I'll put the clip in there as well so people can go to the Facebook group and see it. Awesome.

54:09 That link will be in the show notes. That Facebook group is called Empowered Podcasting if you want to search for it, but otherwise, just check it in the show notes and we'll send you right to it. Jonathan, thank you for putting together another great obsession worthy podcast episode. Appreciate you and appreciate everyone's contributions to this conversation. Again. Oh, let me just, you know what? Before I fully wrap, Tide is on stage, let me give Tide the final word and then I'll tell you about tomorrow's episodes. Please forgive me, Tide. Oh, wow. Go for it. Yeah, I was just going to say that as a fairly new podcaster myself, I've been doing it for four months now. I know that the quality is an important thing and I'm learning with each new episode. So and the reps has really helped me and listening to you guys has been an amazing experience because just hearing the different opinions like someone mentioned a moment ago, it has really helped me to elevate my game in terms of interviewing.

55:00 Also the technology standpoint, which I was afraid of. So with each passing episode, yes, the quantity is is there and it's building. I mean, I'm getting ready to start season 3 after four months. So I've definitely got a ton of quantity, which is amazing, but I can't wait. And you know as this year the first quarter of 2026 passes, my quality game is really kind of step it. Up and I I can't wait to mark. Thank you, Tide, and thank you for the feedback as well. I'm glad that this has been so helpful for you. And I'm seeing in the chat people are saying, oh, I wanted to hear that clip. I I don't know, Jonathan, should I play it or should we just keep the tease and go to the Facebook group Dr. saying play it, play it. I see her mouthing it. All right, we'll play it.

55:43 How What do you think, Jonathan? That's how we'll wrap it up. OK, we're going to wrap it up. And I'll just tell you real quick, tomorrow's episode, we are covering podcast news and commenting on the different headlines around the world of podcasting. A always a fun episode with lots of great info. So come join us, stay in the know in this world of podcasting. And now that final clip, famous guitar which she brought on stage during this last tour, I think is the guitar, a Koi fish guitar you guys made for her. Well, what happened is we started a, we started a series called the Gallery Series.

56:24 And the first guitar I made, I named it Living Jewels and I had koi fish swimming around it. And we had this relationship with Taylor and her birthday is just before Christmas. And I took that guitar out and sent it to her for her 18th birthday slash Christmas present. And she loved that guitar. I remember she called me on the Christmas morning, but she played that guitar and she put it in the Country Music Hall of Fame in her display. And then it disappeared out of there before the Heiress tour. And all of her fans, you know, started online talking about what happened to that Koi Fish guitar. What happened to the Koi Fish guitar? It's not there anymore. I wonder if she's going to bring it out. And her dad actually wrote me on the 1st concert when she brought it out and sent me a little video of just people going nuts when she pulled that guitar.

57:15 Because her fans follow every move she makes. Yeah, she's a force. That truer words were never spoken than the words that Scott Swift said to be on the phone that day, which is every dad thinks their daughter's special, but mine really is. She is. I've actually used that quote myself for my kids, and I believe that to be true. And when I say that, I try not to overhype my kids unless I think it's really truly deserving. Jonathan, any final thoughts you wanted to add about that clip? What led into the clip was how they actually met Taylor Swift. She was been with Taylor Guitars since the beginning. Her first appearance with Taylor Guitars was at a trade show when he when the owner of Taylor Guitars had to ask people to come in and listen to her.

58:03 That's how long they've been together. That's how long that relationship has lasted, all the way to the Eras Tour and her father staying in touch and, you know, giving the information even though she plays Taylor guitars and Gibson guitars. Thank you, Jonathan. All right, so we're back tomorrow, 7:00 AM Eastern live on Clubhouse, LinkedIn, YouTube, Facebook, all the things, and you can get that information in the show notes. So until then, make it a great day everybody. Take care.