538. Podcast Discovery and Growth Strategies with Arielle Nissenblatt

0:05 Marc Ronick: Good morning, Today is Tuesday, june 16, 2026 and today podcast audience growth, community building, and content that converse with podcast Hall of Famer Arielle Nessenblatt, sharing the strategies creators can use to attract listeners and keep them coming back. It's been a while, so if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, top right hand side of the screen, and share it however Clubhouse lets you. And if you're catching this via podcast, YouTube, etc. please share this with a fellow podcaster. And now, give us about 30 seconds and we'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here. The podcasting morning chat is powered by Ironick Media, helping podcasters launch, polish, and grow great shows, and by Content Creators Accountant, helping creators content. Good morning again, podcasting morning show. Thank you so much for being here. I am your host, Mark Ronick, and currently on stage with me, we've got a whole mess of people here. We have DR. Fay, Sid Meadows, Ralph Eastep, we have Phil Better, BC Babbles, and I

1:38 think that's all of the usual cast and crew, I'm looking in multiple places here, so please forgive me if.. oh, and Jason Circon, of course, is here. Sorry, Jason, I was looking at the clubhouse screen and not at the Riverside screen. Good to have you here, Jason. Also, Jason: thanks, Mark. Marc Ronick: Sorry, Jason. We also have, of course, our guest, Arielle Nissenblatt, here as well. Good morning to you, Arielle. We will give you an official welcome here in just a moment. First, I do have to say thank you, especially to Ralph Estep for holding down the fort while I was away last week, volunteering at Camp Footprint, a camp that is hosted by the CMTA Charcot Marie Tooth Association. It's a camp for kids with the disease CMT, and, man, what a week.

2:32 And I will not share all the details today, because, like I've said multiple times now, we have a guest today, so I'm not gonna take the spotlight away, but I will just tell you, I had a fantastic time. It is one of the most.. it probably is the most rewarding thing that I do all year long to thinking, having to think about who's looking at them, you know, think I've ever been a part of. So, I will share more with you, maybe tomorrow, before we dive into the news.

3:17 But first, let's dive into this show today, and Ralph, why don't you go ahead and introduce officially our guest, Arielle. Absolutely, good morning everybody. You know, Arielle Nissenblatt is a content strategist, she's a community builder, and an event facilitator based in Brooklyn, New York. She founded Ear Buds Podcast, collected one of the podcasting's longest running well, it depends. Now, that's an event and education company for podcasters and digital creators. Arielle hosts Trailer Park, the podcast trailer podcast, and daily tips that may or not, may or may not help you. She serves on the board of governors of the Podcast Academy, and here's the best part: she was inducted into the Podcast Hall of Fame in 2026 City tour guide and founder of Through speaking, writing, consulting, and events, Arielle helps creators and media organizations grow audiences and to welcome you officially to the show.

4:17 And thank you so much for Arielle Nissenblatt: Thank you I'm honored to be here. Happy morning. This is so nice, a morning show. And also, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate all reading in my entire bio. That was lovely. It reminded me of a few things that I have to do, Marc Ronick: as in maybe update a few things, Arielle Nissenblatt: or like host a tour, because it's been a while. Marc Ronick: m Oh, okay, yeah, I'm really curious about that, but I know, Ralph, you had a, you wanted to kick us off with the first question. Ralph Estep Jr.: I did, Arielle, for you is, I mentioned you were Podcast Hall of Fame. What was the reaction when you got the news to that? Arielle Nissenblatt: Oh, thank you for asking. Because mixed, mixed reaction.

5:02 Number one, I felt like, Who am I to be receiving this award? Another was imposter syndrome, which I guess is related. Another is I'm too young, this is a curse. What am I going to do with the rest of my life? What do I have to look up to? And then another one was, okay, hell yeah, I have done a lot of cool stuff, and it's nice to, you know, be recognized by your peers, and then also by the people who are not in the podcast space, friends, family, LinkedIn connections that are not podcasters. I kept thinking maybe they'll finally understand that podcasts have made it because I've made Marc Ronick: it, at least maybe they'll take it a little more seriously.

5:42 Ralph Estep Jr.: Yeah, and I if you join us on this show. And I was like, 'That's awesome. I love the energy. Arielle Nissenblatt: Yeah, Except I will, like, let me just be transparent. This microphone is not plugged in, Marc Ronick: you know? I was going to tell you that, Arielle Nissenblatt: not working. Marc Ronick: I was going to tell you pretty clearly, so don't worry about it. No big deal. Arielle Nissenblatt: It's just I have limited USB-C ports over here. This is a problem in podcasting. Yes, okay, Marc Ronick: yes, it is. I Arielle Nissenblatt: need to be charging, I need to be charging. Marc Ronick: Yeah, and even when So, yeah, that is absolutely a challenge.

6:29 I was Arielle Nissenblatt: gonna say I feel like it's me troubleshooting my tech, but let issue for the people who are here watching, listening. It is a problem. It's a problem. It is. Marc Ronick: I agree. DR: Well, for me it's always a challenge to see how long I could stay on Riverside before my video goes blank. Marc Ronick: Yes, DR has lots of too that has every single port filled up. Marc Ronick: Yep. All right, so Arielle, you discovered podcasts in 2014 as a listener, from what I understand, and at what point did you realize you wanted to build a whole career around podcasting, not just listen to podcasts? Arielle Nissenblatt: 2016 Marc Ronick: okay? And what happened in 2016 Arielle Nissenblatt: there was a I was living in Mississippi, my first job out of college, and that's when I started listening to podcasts, because my all my coworkers were listening to stemmed from cereal, true crime, sometimes chat shows here and interested in listening to that I was able to synthesize hadn't been in reading or in I really was just able to get the information and deeply

8:00 understand it in a way that I hadn't been able to before, so I felt smarter, I felt more engaged, I felt more able to participate in conversations. It really boosted my confidence when I became a podcast listener, and when I moved to Los Angeles a few years after that, I was stuck in the car a lot because of traffic, and I continued listening to podcasts, but also to radio, and I just became very interested in longer of an ecosystem to understand, and I started going to events that were put on by 89.3 KPCC, 89.9 KCRW, just very interested talking to people, asking them about their careers, podcast feeds, and this is around the time that I said to myself, I don't want to work in communications anymore at nonprofits because I hate it and I'm bad at it, and what if I could find something that I don't hate that I'm good at?

9:10 And it turns out the way my brain works is as long as I love So I figured out that I wanted I didn't have any experience? I had studied geography in college, so I didn't ever work at the radio station. I didn't work in marketing, I didn't work in communications, PR, nothing that was directly related. So I kind of had to figure out my own way in, and I'll stop there, so that you can butt in. Marc Ronick: Well, all right, so it, gig that you, that you started as you started this professional side of podcasting. Arielle Nissenblatt: Yeah, so started occupying was one that I I still run it. You mentioned it, Ralph, in the intro. The Ear Buds Podcast Collective is my weekly newsletter that I've been running since 2017 and I started it because I didn't have experience elsewhere, so it's not that nobody would hire me.

10:11 I'm sure I could have gotten an entry-level job somewhere, booking, you know, maybe doing or marketing associate that. While I was figuring all that out, while I was applying to jobs, I also started this newsletter, because I was listening to a lot of podcasts, and I was talking to friends who were listening to podcasts as well, but they ultimately were stuck. They were listening to their five favorite shows, and then when those were finished, they were like, what do I do next, and there's so many shows out there that they felt overwhelmed, and I felt overwhelmed, that that's a inserting myself as this podcast I have my five favorite shows, you have yours, your friend has theirs, on and on and on, we podcast recommendations, where by a different person, so it's somebody new every single week, and I've been doing that every single week since february 13, we're gonna have a big party, so official, quote unquote, first Did it pay me right away? Absolutely not.

11:24 Did it take up a lot of my time? Absolutely. Did it look really ugly at first? Was I sending it on Gmail? Did I accidentally cc everybody one time, and that's when I said I need to learn how to use an email service provider. All of these things are true. My first official, official job, somebody else paying me to do something. ads, but before I started leverage the newsletter to go to passes to go places. So that was a really cool unlock that I figured out early on. I started working at a podcast studio, actually, it was a co-working space in Los Angeles that I really wanted to have an office at, but I didn't want to pay to have an office there, so I pitched the concept of a podcast librarian.

12:12 I wanted to be the podcast discussion facilitator at this co-working space, so I said, What if I curate a list for you guys, and every week, all the people who are interested in this co-working space can come together to discuss it, because theoretically, you've got all these people working at this co-working space, they don't just want to interact with their people. this. This co-working space that I pitched the idea to was like, I love the idea, can you build us a studio, though, because ultimately they wanted to make money, and I said, yeah, even though I had no idea what I was doing, so then I naturally managed the studio for a year and a half. Marc Ronick: So you helped them build the studio, you actually set it all up, and then what they just like allowed you to use that studio however you wanted, whenever you wanted, Arielle Nissenblatt: pretty much, and they, you know, I was in charge of figuring out what the pricing model was, and how to bring people in, and what sound paneling to use, and really like how we deliver the files, so that all of that was very interesting and challenging, and when I actually, I haven't said this out loud, because I haven't thought about it in a while, it's the first time that I started thinking about how the word producer means different things to different people, because people would be like, "Oh, do you have an engineer?

13:28 Do you have a producer on site? And I'd be like, "Yes, and yes. Question mark, I don't know. So this is a persistent issue in creator spaces in general. So that was interesting, but yes, they allowed me to use the space, and more so they allowed me to host networking events. So I had a lot of fun just bringing friends and friends of friends and people in the podcast space over. I hosted a festival one time with 200 people or so, that was great. I hosted a bunch of storytelling shows, where you know, the soft sell was their podcast about storytelling. overall, yeah, it was a great in the podcast space, and to be able to say, come on over.

14:12 Marc Ronick: Yeah, yeah. And I'm gonna ask a question that I have a feeling may have perked BC's ears a bit. You mentioned how, when you got into this, one of the first opportunities was that you were able to get like press passes and get into different events because of that, and I know that's an area that BC has been exploring and working on, so I'm curious, and I think other podcasters are curious how that works. So I'm going to jump the line from all my other questions and go there first. How would a podcaster go about kind of major event? Arielle Nissenblatt: Yeah, it's a really great question. And just for transparency's sake, I've decided to remove the mic that was not doing any.

14:54 Okay, fair. Do I sound okay? You sound fine. Yeah, just not like beautiful, right? Exactly. Okay. Sorry about that. Yeah, so when I started this newsletter, I was, you know, making it week after week, and I was learning lessons here and there, and I had a friend at the time who ran a website for music festivals. saying, like, this music some news from this music that dropped, and then he would report on it on his blog slash website that cataloged all of so he would go to a music beyond, and I would ask him, all these festivals, and he and I said, What do you mean, word, I'd always heard press what it meant. And it turns out it's just a free way for you to go if you report on it, and I'm putting "report on" in quotes, really. You are reporting on it, you are there so that you can experience it, so that you can write about it, or post about it, or make a video about it, or organizers of the event trust you and want you to get the message out about this event to their, to your audience, and so he was able to go to all these festivals and then write about it on the blog, and I said, What does that look like for podcasters? Right at that moment is when I found out about podcast movement, which was taking place in Anaheim that year, and if it had been somewhere else, I probably would not have been able to go, because I was able

16:26 to drive, and at the time I was not down to be spending my own money flying somewhere to go to a conference, even if the conference was for free. So I drove down to Anaheim with this press pass with a dream and a backpack. I really like, showed up, and then I just was like going to every single session, meeting people whose names I had heard in credits, and really earnestly shaking hands and taking business cards and things like that. And let me tell you, the parking at the parking garage was $50 a day, and you better believe I was like, is there a press pass for the parking garage? It was not, but yeah, I mean, just to bring it back to your question, that's how it worked for me, but it's going to be different for each type of podcaster, you know? If you have a podcast and you podcast about podcasting, yeah, maybe you can try to get press passes at different podcast and media related conferences, but usually what you're going to want to do is talk about what kind of coverage you're going to do, so for example, Tribeca, which used to be Tribeca Film Festival, now they call it Tribeca Festival because they have podcasts and they have games and they have branded content and all these different things, so Tribeca Festival now has Tribeca podcast, Tribeca Audio, and the application process for a press pass is pretty rigorous. It's you have to talk about the stories that you're interested in covering and talk about the people that you want to cover and talk about the different sessions that you have outlined, and you're going to

17:57 show up and you're going to what your coverage is going to So, if you get approved on that, you get a press pass, you get to go to as many events as you want, and then you're going to write about it afterwards. So I'm still, I still have to write it, just wrapped up earlier this week, so I still have to write my press, or write my, you know, recap of the event, but that's a really great way for me to go to one of the most amazing podcast festivals ever, and learn about all these new, new shows, or new limited run series, and that that's really great, but if you have a pod, admit that to who do like figuring out over time who to submit it to, being in the social internet space, and figuring out that this is the person who runs Tribeca Audio. This is the person who does press passes for the general festival.

18:49 But, yeah, I mean, truly, I wish there was a better answer than just, like, who do I But it really is like going onto the website, friending this person on LinkedIn, commenting on some of their stuff, but not in a way that's like, "Hello, I would like a press pass, but more genuinely giving value over time. They see that you are somebody that they want to be in touch with, and then I'm not saying it lands in your lap. I work 10 years on all this stuff, but yeah, it really takes a while. And then, like the example that I often give is like, if you have a podcast about coffee and you want to go to a big coffee conference. If you pitch them or tell them that you're interested in a press pass, maybe you're going to record live podcast interviews on the on stage or on, you know, in a back room, and you're going to invite some of their speakers to join you.

19:39 That's pretty valuable, right? So, a lot of it is like I said, hustling and kind of finding your own way in. I recently saw that there was a newsletter conference in New York, and I really wanted to go because I've been writing newsletters for so long. I love the newsletter space. The tickets were like $1,500 for a one-day conference, and you better believe I'm not doing that. So, I applied for a press. their website. Sometimes they will have that. Marc Ronick: So, I want to stay on this topic for a moment. BC, I know you have a follow-up, and since I called you out, wouldn't be right to just blow by that. So, go ahead and ask your follow-up, and then we'll keep things going. BC Babbles: Thank you. And good morning, everyone. So, just a quick add on to that, I'm curious whether or not your colleague that you mentioned, or if you at any point realized you had to, in addition to being willing to go through these rigorous application processes, did you have to also wait to have any sort of following weight to be able to throw around in any negotiations to get those kinds of press passes to these events Arielle Nissenblatt: I'm usually going, whether or not I get a press pass. I want to go, and sometimes I'm going as a speaker, which is very helpful.

20:50 So that started kicking in a few years in. I went to Podcast Movement 2017 in Anaheim, just press pass 2018 press pass 2019 I started speaking at the conference, and I had started working for Cast Box, a podcast listening app, so they sent me. just decided it was something on. I think a lot of people, people ask me all the time, I go to a lot of podcast conferences, Is it worth it? Some people even want to jump on a call and ask me about the ROI that they might see, and the only thing I can say is it's, it's what you make of it.

21:30 And is it, are you going to see a return on your investment right away? Probably not. Is it going to take six months, and you might not be able to trace it back? Probably not. But I think you have to be BC Babbles: Awesome, thank you. Marc Ronick: Yeah, all right. And let's see, let's go. Oh, DR. You had something, and then we'll go to Ralph. DR: Yeah, so can I get back to one of your favorite subjects, your newsletter? I've been a subscriber for a couple years, and I appreciate that. So, I like to ask the questions that the new podcasters who are listening would ask, and that is, how do you get in? If I have a podcast, how do I get into your newsletter? You mentioned something about someone curating a list, is it anyone can curate a list? How, how do I get my podcast into your newsletter? Arielle Nissenblatt: That's a great question. Do you know how to get featured?

22:24 DR: I do not. Arielle Nissenblatt: You don't. because in every single issue I think that I'm making it obvious that each week is curated by a different person. Anyone can curate a list. I have the curation form linked in each issue of the newsletter, I have it at the top of my website. I think I have it. I think I've made it so clear, but, but you're right, that there's definitely a messaging problem here, because a lot of people, a lot of people still email me, and they're like, "Hey, love the newsletter, loved this issue. Sometimes they'll reply to the How do I get featured? And I'm like, it's literally right there, and, like, look, I'm guilty of this too, where, like, I don't read, DR: so I would have to get someone to curate to know in the curation, Arielle Nissenblatt: and you can DR: Oh, I see. Okay, and that Arielle Nissenblatt: is in the So, DR: okay, Arielle Nissenblatt: if another thing that happens is that people, if they find the submission form, it's like it's work to put together the list, right?

23:25 Because I'm not just asking for you to drop five links and that's it. You also need to write two to three sentences about each episode that you've selected, and I don't want you to copy paste it from the description, and I want there to be a thoughtfully curated list that comes together that naturally fits your episode into it. Okay, sometimes I'll get a submission form that is five episodes of that person's own show, and I reply, and I'm like, "Hey, did you read any of the directions? So it is very easy to find ways to get your show featured, not just in my newsletter, but in others, but you need to be willing to look and read and see what they have featured in the past, or see what types of content they like to put out there, and see if you fit into that, or if you might diverge, but in a way that they're interested in, and I think what a lot of people don't do is give it the time to figure out how they can plug in. Instead, they're like, ah, I can't get featured because I'm an Indeed podcaster, or because of this, or because of that. Yes, you can.

24:29 DR: And is there a cost to the Okay, great. I would never.. we should submit. I mean, Mark, I would Arielle Nissenblatt: never.. get featured in the newsletter, but the main thing that each week is curated by a different Anyone curated a list is free, will always be free. I've now added a sixth episode slot, so you can pay for that if you want. If you're like, so, for example, I'm making the next five issues of the newsletter, the topics of them. That are upcoming public, so now you can see that in two weeks it's going to be a history theme, in three weeks it's going to be politics, in four weeks it's going to be sports. So, if you have a show related to those or an episode related to those, you can pay to be featured, or if you support me on Patreon for like at the $10 per month level, then you can pitch for free. So, great, there's a lot of ways to get featured for free. I also have a community submission form, where, like, if you have news, if it's like you're a 100th episode, or Jason, if you actually, all of you, if there's a podcasting conference coming up, then you can share the news there, or if you've hit a milestone subscriber number, I'll feature that in the community notes section. And then I also write another newsletter called Podcast Plunge that goes out on Mondays, that's that I've received over the past week, I reproduce them, the that people can keep up with what's going on there.

25:55 And if you send me a press release, you can get featured there, that's free. DR: Great, and Arielle Nissenblatt: all of my stuff that we're immunity curated. Sorry, DR: I assume we have links to, yeah, you know, Marc Ronick: I was gonna say that, you know, bad host smacking my hand right now, because I don't have, I mean, I have your main website, which is just your name, right, Arielle nissenblatt.com but is there with our community. Arielle Nissenblatt: Oh, I mean, May I curse? This feels like radio. I can't figure out, Marc Ronick: and you can. It's okay. We'll always bleep it if we feel like we have. Arielle Nissenblatt: Yeah, I really need to get it all together. I, the website is like the closest approximation to the things, but may I say, Wix is and edit, Marc Ronick: agree, so Arielle Nissenblatt: that's why that website is lagging. I would say LinkedIn is where I post all my stuff. Marc Ronick: Okay, cool.

26:48 Here's what I want to do. We have lots of people wanting to ask questions, so I know Sid wants to ask a question, and we're going to go to him next, and I want to also go to Jason to see if he has any questions, because you guys just had a great interview on his podcast, so I want to see if he has maybe either any follow-ups from that episode or maybe just from this So, we'll, I'll come to you in a second. Jason Sid, good morning to you, sir. Did you have something for Sid Meadows: Good morning, Mark. Good morning, everybody. Welcome back. Thanks. I had a comment to make, but we've already passed through that, so which is fine. No reason to go backwards. You can keep moving forward. Marc Ronick: Okay. Arielle Nissenblatt: Oh no, bring it. Marc Ronick: Bring it. Sid, Arielle's requesting. Sid Meadows: Okay.

27:29 Good morning, Arielle. I just was gonna make the comment about the press pass say it to Arielle. If you're interested in going to a specific conference or website will have an area can apply and fill out the pass. And I think it's important for us all to remember that, whether you call yourself or not, because you're creating content and sharing as a podcaster, you are classified as a journalist, and you know, so that's really the position I would take when applying for a press pass, it does give you some inside access and stuff, depending on the conference you're going to, but you know, just go with the, I love the hustle aspect you mentioned, Arielle, but just go onto the events website and you'll find a fill out to get a pass. Arielle Nissenblatt: The reason I didn't say that exactly is because sometimes conferences don't have everything, like Marc Ronick: admittedly empowered podcasting does not. Yeah, Arielle Nissenblatt: right. So it's like, if you are a legit, I mean, not that empowered podcasting is not legit. If you've been around for a while and you know all of the different scenarios, people have have a reaction to that. Absolutely everything, but I think when you're getting started up, you might not have all that set up, so that's where the hustle, that's where the what's the grind comes into play.

28:52 And I think even then, maybe you're classified as a journalist. I don't necessarily think all podcasters should be classified as journalists, and there are podcasters that have said as much. There are a lot of podcasters who have said as much. All this to say, I think even if you have a show, even if there is a press, you know, might need to prove yourself, Marc Ronick: Well, let's, podcasting, let's go to my and yeah, Jason, any questions Jason: Yeah, you were saying that comes out next, not this Thursday. So, I don't want to bury the lead with that. I want everyone to go listen to that episode, because it was just an hour-long master class on, I guess, well, absolutely on newsletter strategy, but I think it was also a slight masterclass on staying on track, we were trying, like, because we both would veer and then catch ourselves, like, wait a minute, we're not here to talk about this, because the idea was to keep the conversation focused, but one question I had about the press pass, or just the press aura of going to these events used.

29:59 Started this years ago, and now in 2026 we know the event space has evolved. Are they asking more now of what you do or what you would do in order to obtain that pass, or is it still status quo from your previous experience? Arielle Nissenblatt: You know, I been talking about press passes this whole time, I would say I'm not the best person to ask, because I'm not strictly press. I go to a lot of podcast conferences as a speaker, and I also cover it as press, so it is not strictly - it is not my only obligation to cover these events. I'm also there to speak on stage, so have I heard from other people, and I would say it's also very much dependent on the conference, as you mentioned at the beginning, Ralph.

30:45 I run a company called Well, it depends. It's my favorite phrase, I say it all the time, because absolutely everything is dependent on something else. Yeah, and yeah, I mean it's really going to be a case by case basis. Like Tribeca was a pretty rigorous process, podcast movement, if I remember correctly, is less so. Was less so. I don't know how things have changed, but I think it really depends on the type of conference and the infrastructure that they have in place. Jason: I asked because of my working in the beer world, we and there were people that would that had, like, maybe one post on it, and then they'd submit, 'Hey, I write a blog, I'd like to come and cover on.

31:26 Oh, really? A blog? Like, well, this was back in 2016 so yeah, that was hip. No, I mean, Arielle Nissenblatt: like, oh, you as the respondent, you're like, sick. A blog, okay? Tell us about Marc Ronick: it. Yeah, Ralph Estep Jr.: Arielle, I wanted to get into a discussion now about one of the reasons I had you on the show, is to talk about audience growth, and you've been doing this for a while now, you've been helping people find listeners and help listeners find podcasts. What's the biggest misconception that you see podcasters have about audience growth right now? Because I think that's one of the reasons a lot of people are joining us today? Arielle Nissenblatt: Yeah, that there's one thing that you can do that'll rocket your show to that all the time. I'm sorry for that cop-out answer, but nothing pisses me off more than when people say, okay, but what really is a good download number, and I'll be like, say it with me, it depends.

32:18 And then, oh, what is.. but what does it depend on? Many different factors that I need to intimately know about your show in order to tell you why you may or may not be growing. I'll say I'm currently mentoring four people for an event or for an organization called the Association for Independence and Radio Air Media, and what I find is that it feels like they're looking for permission. It feels like they, whatever I tell them, even though I think I'm giving them the infrastructure to grow their own show, I'm telling them about the philosophies behind development and audience practical things that I've tried have tried that have worked and I'm giving them resources and tools and pitch forms and email addresses to journalists that they can pitch to and best even then the question is okay how long should my pitch letter be or and the answer is always it depends, and it's all about so it's about figuring out time, or what's right for the to, or what's right for the app that you're pitching to.

33:32 So many different factors go into this, and I think a lot of people, what it feels like to me, the misconception is that if they do the exact right thing at the exact right time, their show is going to boom, and that could be true for one or two people. It could be true for a lot of people. You might be able to strike lightning, but more likely you're going to have to try a million different things and not fail. I don't really see it as failure, but you're going to not see growth a lot, and that has to be okay, and you have to be in it for the long haul, of course. There are, and I really like one of my another pet peeve, another thing that that boils my blood. There's so many phrases for this that I'm sure I'll share, is that you know, I really don't like to give like general blanket advice that is not specific, so we can get into specifics in a second, of like things that do work, or things that you can try, but I always want people to keep in mind that even if I tell you 50 things and 50 of them could be really helpful for you, even if you try them and you quote unquote do them right, you might not grow your show right now, and that's not my fault, and that's not your fault, that's just like circumstances, because there are so many variables that listen to something, that goes in, go into why a listener continues to listen to something, why a listener then likes you so much that they become a paid subscriber, but then you have to keep them as a paid subscriber, so Ralph Estep Jr.: Arielle, one of the things that I hear a lot of co.

35:00 Just talk about was just be consistent, Marc Ronick: yeah. And I Ralph Estep Jr.: hear so many podcasters that said I've been publishing consistently, Rafa, my audience isn't growing. Where do you go when you start to hear that conversation when somebody's saying that to you? Because it just drives me crazy. It's like you can consistently be doing the wrong things and you're not going to get anywhere. That's what I always tell people. I'm a finance guy, that's where I make my money, and, and I was telling you, you can consistently be making bad decisions for your business, and Arielle Nissenblatt: Yeah, you podcast for 1520 years, you can do whatever you want. I think the issue that I have with the consistency, the consistency advice is not, I do think it's great to be consistent, but don't put out content for the sake of putting out content just because you think you need to do it weekly, forever. I usually, I mean, for a while I was like, not just be consistent, quote unquote, but be consistent, sure, and if you need to take a break for a week, or for a month, or you know, if you're going to drop a bunch of feed drops in with an intro from you that explains why you're away, but this is a really great episode to listen to while I'm gone. Great, be transparent with your audience about where you are. You don't have to give all the details, of course, but you you were away last week, you let You, we are with you on that. We want to know how it went.

36:21 I think a lot of this, a lot of it is about your trusting or letting your listeners be excited by building a relationship with you, and if you need to make a change, or if reason, letting people know why that happened. Of course, like I said before, you don't have to go into all the details, but just being when you can't be consistent, be transparent, and I think there's also an element here of it's okay to not publish, or it's okay to put out a shorter episode that is quality rather than a longer episode that is not good, it's okay to kill an episode where you had a guest come on who was just bad, they promoted themselves the entire time. It's okay to say, I am not publishing that. I have standards.

37:08 I also will say, for the past year or so, I worked with a lot of businesses, solo entrepreneurs, small companies that wanted to start podcasts, or were, you know, continuing to make their own podcasts, and, you know they had heard the same advice. I need to be consistent forever. I need to put it out forever. That's how I'm going to grow. Content in and of itself does not help you grow. It's marketing the content that helps you grow. The show has to be good also, right? The show has to be good. People forget this. You can't just put something out. You don't deserve an audience. Nobody deserves an audience, right? You're not entitled to anybody's time. You have to work for it. I lately have been telling people, if you're a business that has a podcast or a solo entrepreneur that wants to start a podcast, you have to decide why you're making the show, other than downloads and dollars, and that there could be so many reasons for that.

37:59 It could be, it could be as shallow as I want to interview these people, so that I can make clips, so that I can post them on social, so that people see that I'm associated with this person. That can be a reason. It could be I love playing around with technology. It could be I like sharpening my interview skills, because I also tech forward to have a podcast in my industry, so I want to have a podcast, and you don't have to be an every week, every day, whatever your cadence is, you don't have to be doing that forever. If you have one big interview per month with somebody that you really want to have on your show, you can ride the clips wave forever. You could even have a situation where you interview people literally just when they say yes of your show lives on social, distribute via RSS and YouTube, but you don't owe anybody consistency, you have to decide.

38:52 I just grind my gears, that's another one. The idea that you, you have to do something because some SEO-laden blog told you that you had to do it, you do what you want. Marc Ronick: Yes, yes, you're fitting right in here, Arielle. Yeah, and all right, so let's keep stay on this a little bit. If somebody, a podcaster, has a great show, but they're saying they have a small audience, whatever, however they're defining that, what are the first things you think that they should focus on Arielle Nissenblatt: first? I would want them to do a self audit of their own show, but in order to do that, they need to plug into the ecosystem, and I lot of people make, is they themselves, or they don't up on podcasts in their niche, their niche. So, usually what I recommend is make a list of other shows, and it can be there should probably be a few within your category and a few outside of your category. You can go to Apple and Spotify and search for your category, choose a few big ones, choose a few small ones, go to the. There's a really great website that I'm sure you've mentioned on the show, called Rephonic.

40:03 Yes, rephonic.com/graph There's a few websites nowadays that are popping up that are helpful here. Million podcasts.com makes Player FM makes really specific lists. Marc Ronick: Hey, how long has out? Because I feel like I'm just seeing it, Arielle Nissenblatt: because it's a little.. can I be real with you? I don't understand it. Marc Ronick: Yeah, me neither. Arielle Nissenblatt: Okay, I'm doing some investigation, so I'll get back to you on that. But for now, the lists are there, so if you are straight up or to listen to, or to.. I don't know, do some landscape tracking, you can use that. They also have a paid service, so I don't know exactly what they're offering.

40:46 Is you don't need to take part in that, so just use it for the listings for now. giving, is you know, you can search, like podcasts about about niche topic, million can find lists of these things. They're usually generated by a backend system that they have. That's a really great way to just find out what other shows are playing in your arena. You can listen to them, you can find out what you like about them, you can find what you don't like about them. Maybe they discuss things in your topic area that you really disagree with, look at that, that's a pulse, you, You can disagree with them publicly, you can start some beef in a nice way, you can at them on social media and invite them to be on the show to disagree with you.

41:34 All of this just kind of puts you in conversation with your audience, their audience, and also the larger landscape that you're a part of. But that's one thing I would do, is self audit, try to figure out where your show stands, how your cold opens compare to somebody else's. Do you need a cold open? That's another thing about consistency. I'm sorry, Jason, you spoke about being on track. You don't have to have a cold open for every single episode just because you've decided that open worthy, do not have a cold open. I think people don't realize this, like don't put a shitty cold open for the sake of Okay, so anyway, all of this kind of goes into the audit process of like, is your show actually good, is it actually worthwhile. Another part of this is pick one or two people that leave comments on your posts and ask them if you can have a phone call with them and see what they like about your show and what they don't like about your show.

42:30 Ask them very specific questions. There is an article from 2023 written by Tom Webster of Sounds Profitable, called What We Talk About When We Talk About Podcasts, and in it he outlines five questions that you can ask to do a mini listener survey, one of them is, is my show too long or too short, and you'll notice that the question there is not, How do you feel about the length of my show, because often when you ask people a question like that, it'll be like, oh, it's good, but if you give them a, is it too long or is it too short, you get one answer or the other, you can ask them, How would you describe my podcast to a friend or a family member? So, what do other people perceive this show is about? All of that stuff will be very helpful, and I would say pay somebody to audit your show, but need to put a lot of work into it.

43:19 Okay, so that's one thing that I would do to start. Another thing I would do is hanging fruit that I would So, what's the name of your show? Does it accurately reflect what your show is about? Is your cover art terrible? Is it ugly? Is it - does it give the wrong impression of what the show is about? Because, again, what you're doing when you are presenting your show, is you have your title out there, you have your, you have your artwork out there, you have a description of your show out there, you have a few visual elements that people are clocking as they're deciding whether or not to listen to your show, and you get to figure out over time, you will figure out if people are, you're promising somebody something based on the artwork and the title, are you then delivering on it in each subsequent step that somebody not? So, a big part of this is the trailer. Does your trailer accurately reflect what's in the actual first episode of the show?

44:15 If not, if your trailer is production budget and you've got whatever, and then the first very confusing for the listener, consistent and makes sense from one to the other is very important to do, that's another thing that I would check out, same with your titles, your they make sense, not only do they actually what people search your show. Yes, this is SEO, but even without getting into the nitty gritty of it, just the because I think SEO sometimes can be scary, but really it's like when people search for a show like yours, what search terms are they using? That's SEO, so those are a few.

44:59 Things that I would do. Another thing I would do is, I mean, the way that I operate when I'm working to grow a show is, I make a huge list of other podcasts, other newsletters, other publications, collaborating with or getting the work is to find contact newsletter, or whatever. Find an angle, so sometimes it's I want to be a guest on the show to talk about this aspect of coffee farming. If I'm a coffee podcaster, sometimes it's there's a newsletter, and a newsletter about coffee, and in each issue they feature a piece of media. Can I be that piece of media? Is it there's an influencer who goes and reviews different, I'm just making this up, so it's going to be a weird thing. Different movies where coffee is like a main protagonist, or like there's an iconic coffee scene in the movie. Can I sponsor that segment?

45:48 So, coming up with interesting ways to get in front of these people's audience in a way that respects those people's audience and also respects the fact that you've actually done your research to find out what this show is about or what this newsletter is about, and how you can plug in. A lot of people ask, how do I actually get a yes from this person? How do I pitch? How long should my pitch be? Blah blah blah. I always say the first thing that you should do, and I feel pretty comfortable saying you should do this, even though I'm usually not about the shoulds and the musts and stuff, is you can always email people or message people and say, hey, I love what you do, I would love to send you information about my show, or I'd love to pitch myself as a guest, but first, before I do, are you open to pitches, and if so, what do you like to receive in a pitch? That's warming them up, it's a pre-pitch, and I think that's a great way to just get them to not hate you right off the bat.

46:43 Marc Ronick: Yeah, all right. more people that have questions. I'm gonna go to Phil Better, who's over on Clubhouse first. Phil, good morning to you. Good to see you. What did you want to ask Arielle after that build up? All right, sorry about that. Phil: Sorry, couldn't find the unmute button. Marc Ronick: That's okay. Phil: You think a podcaster but no. Arielle, thank you very much for being here. But you touched on earned media and owned media in your, in your talk, and if people aren't sure what that means, it's owned as your social media, or newsletter, or the podcasters, the specific podcaster, and then newsletters. What is your suggestions to podcasters who want to use paid media to grow their podcast? Arielle Nissenblatt: Yeah, so I have a few tools that if you decide you want to spend some money to grow your show that I trust, but first I would say figure out why you want to grow your show in the first place, and figure out what, how you want to grow it, because there are some. Yes, you could pay for placement in a newsletter, yes, you can pay for placement on, you can buy an ad on a podcast, but you can also buy on apps, you can buy to get featured on a Box or like Pocket Casts or like There's many others that allow you to buy and some that don't. And I would say first and foremost, figure out why you want to grow, like ultimately,

48:14 and it shouldn't just be because I want a bigger show, it should be because I want more clients or because I want to grow my social, like, have a reason that you want to grow other than I just want to grow vanity metrics. Then figure out how you want to grow, because, like I said before, you could buy subscriber uplift. You can buy guaranteed subscriber uplift. There are a bunch of, there are a bunch of services out there that will say, I will matter what. That's not usually a good thing to do. I know it sounds tempting, but yeah, that means that they're gonna probably be getting you some lower quality subscribers that aren't actually all that interested in what you're putting out into the world. Then there are some places that will allow you to buy based on impressions, which sounds not great, right, because it's just being impressed upon people and they need to decide what action to take, but theoretically the people that are going to be interested are going to opt in, and they're interested in your show, so they're going to listen to it, maybe they stick around, maybe they don't.

49:10 That's where the "your show has to be good" comes into play, but I'll say there's a lot that you can do for free to grow your show that I would pull all of those levers before you start spending money, especially if you're an independent creator, you know. And I shouldn't be saying I would, I would, I would, I would. That's what I would do. make their own decisions. If you're at a network, you have less decision-making power, so it might be, you know, this is the, this is how we're going to spend our budget, and you might be getting placements on don't necessarily make sense, budget, so even if you do end up please make sure that you're marketing campaigns If you do want to spend money, there's..

49:58 I really like.. there's this. Service called Introcast, introcast.io It allows you to pay for feed drops on other people's podcasts, but it goes into the second episode slot, so slow, meaningful growth that actually compounds over time. So that's one that I recommend. There are a few others that I of time, I will pause. Marc Ronick: Awesome, thank you. DR: Yeah, by the way, I am now Podcast Plunge. Alex: Wow, that's such a shock. Marc Ronick: There's Alex Alex: off the road. Sorry, I had to just stick that in there.

50:39 Marc Ronick: And just so you to just the fact that Air, that DR. is quick sometimes to subscribe to things. Yeah, there's gonna be an Alex: intervention soon. It's gonna be Ralph and the rest of the crew, since Ralph is the money guy, because we're gonna have a huge intervention on page. DR: Yeah, intervention. Anyway, that's Alex: a side. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to conversation. DR: So I want to talk about when audit as a producer. Probably my biggest pain point is that when people come to me, they've usually lived with their podcast in their head for at least a year, maybe two years before they even come to me, and trying to get them to guilt. The fact that you know Joe Blow's podcast is probably going to be passed up is a hard, is hard to do, because they've lived with it for so long in their head, they've lived with the image of what they want their, their cover art to be in their head, and I'm trying to, you know, pry them away from from that and have a little bit more of an open mind. It's tough when you ask them to self audit that. Arielle Nissenblatt: Yeah, the only reason I'm giving that recommendation is because I don't want to outright be like you should pay me to audit your show. I mean, I think that there is a lot you can do to be other people to be objective for

52:12 sometimes on like communities, like anybody want to do an audit you're still kind of So I'm not saying I'm mean, I'm just saying I'm, I'm like, here's what's not working. DR: Yeah, you know, we do audits finesse, we've got it down that, you know, compliment sandwich, where you give a give a great kudo, and then an opportunity, and you back it up with another kudo. Yeah, so yeah, there's a way to do it. Arielle Nissenblatt: There's a hear it, because ultimately you need to decide why you make your show, right? Is it just to stroke your own ego? Because if so, that's okay, but you need to know that it may not grow.

52:59 Marc Ronick: Fair enough, Arielle Nissenblatt: if you can admit it, Marc Ronick: and by the way, again, it's Arielle nissenblatt.com and we're going to put a link in our show notes as well, if you want to learn and also I want to, you know, to ask you about new podcasts, you were launching a new podcast What content strategy would you focus on first? Give me one specifically one content strategy you would focus on first. Arielle Nissenblatt: I would really be playing a game of optimizing everything, sharpening all of the messaging around the show, so I really want to make sure that the cover art accurately reflects the rest that the title is what people search for, maybe also with something cutesy thrown in there, because yes, SEO is important, but writing for humans is also important.

53:58 I would make sure that I'm thinking strategically about each of my guests, and I think that means sometimes if you interview somebody and it's not a perfect interview, maybe you don't have to kill the interview entirely, but you instead release parts of it on YouTube, and maybe not necessarily on the feed there, which for me, YouTube is more experimental at this moment. For some creators, it, that's that's their main thing. is important, and that doesn't to be full on video, it just advantage of all that YouTube know your RSS feed can live in There's a, there's a place where you can submit your RSS feed, and then your podcast is available as an audio-only podcast. And I don't think a lot of people know that. I don't think a lot of podcast creators know that. They think to be on YouTube, you need to be full on video. So strategies that I would use, or that I would be implementing, those are some of the things that I. I am interested in, but I think for a lot of people who are new or who are getting started back up after a while, please plug into the wider podcast space.

55:10 great idea. Finding out what's the news out there, how you can use that news, news you can use. Read pod news every day, read sounds profitable. Find out what people are saying, what people are doing, what's working, what research studies are out there that you can leverage. Think about the trust that you build with your listeners, and think about how you can use that to your advantage, and not in a sketchy way, but really just trying to figure out, like, all of the different ways that you can plug into this ecosystem really great way to just make the right reasons, Marc Ronick: yeah. And all right, I'm going to ask you one final question to wrap up. As you're looking at podcasting today, we hear a lot of people worrying about some of the negative things that are happening in this space, but I want to hear from you, what about podcasting today? Arielle Nissenblatt: Oh, I've said this for 10 years, and I will continue to say it.

56:07 We're in the golden age of podcasts. There's so much good stuff out You could be entertained 24/7 all the time, constantly. There's so much good stuff to the point that there's no way you're gonna be able to listen to all of it, but, and that's from a, from a listener perspective, I just really think, oh, you have homework, sure, and that homework is to listen to the best podcast ever. Okay, that's so sucks for you, but no, that's what I would say, from, from a consumer perspective, from a creator perspective, I mean, I just really think podcasters are getting smarter about hype cycles. You know, there's a lot of hype out there. You got to do everything with AI, you got to do everything with video.

56:50 I think there is still so much value in audio focus content. And last year was definitely a year that I was hearing a lot of not doing video, you're not taking your podcast seriously, which pisses me off, but yeah, it's really ridiculous. I know it's meant to sell courses and all that kind of stuff, but I know that creators are getting smarter about being like, no, that's not right for me. So figuring out what makes sense they're at, creators are getting Advertisers are also the hype cycle will overcorrect, meaning you know, at first we're not going to advertise on podcasts that don't also do video.

57:32 Guess what, the people that watch videos don't watch videos for as long as the people that listen to podcasts listen to those podcasts, and that is starting to become evident in research studies, so I have a lot of, and I'm not saying video is not something you should do. If you want to make video, you should make video. If you want to go into a studio and make really beautiful video, you should do that. But also know that the people that listen to your show love you and want to stick around, and usually are higher earners, which means that they're going to spend more on ads, which makes them not to speak about people in terms of the dollar values that are over their faces, but that's there's so much value in audio, and it's also fun. Marc Ronick: I agree with you. Yes, and I'm glad you said that. Thank you.

58:12 Before we wrap up, I know that you and Jason, I know I teased earlier that you, you were on his show, or actually will be on his show, podcasting strategy simplified, but Jason, you guys have another project that's coming up, right? Jason: Yeah, and I'm honestly Arielle for this, because I, venturing into uncharted We're gonna go live on Substack next Monday, so we get to hang out again, and I'm looking forward to that, but Arielle, what does everybody have to look forward to when they join us on that? Arielle Nissenblatt: Yes, we're speaking on the 22nd I think it's at 9:30am Eastern time, and So, what events should people go to?

58:54 We're going to talk about Empowered Podcasting. We're going to talk about how these events come together. What I'm very curious about is, and I, what I know a lot of creators are curious about, is how do you make the most out of your time at a conference? You're spending money to go there, you're spending time. How do you network with people? How do you follow up on that networking? What sessions should you go to? Is it worth it to wander the expo hall floor? Yes, there's a lot of good swag, and so much more. Marc Ronick: Very cool Jason: to it. Marc Ronick: Yeah, yeah, I'm Arielle, thank you so much for And I know this is a maybe a cliche term, but I would love for you to keep coming back whenever you can, because I feel about podcasting, and I would just be great to have your voice So that's an open invitation for us.

59:47 Arielle Nissenblatt: Thank you. I had a lot of fun. Thank you for having me. Marc Ronick: Yep, thank you. All right, so we are back tomorrow with all things podcasting news, so come join us for our news and comment episode that we do every Wednesday, 8am Eastern, you can learn more at Podcasting Morning show.com/join us. So, until tomorrow, make it a great day, everybody. Take care.