519. Monetize Your Podcast Without Big Downloads

0:05 Marc Ronick: Good morning, Today is Monday, May the 18th, 2026 and today it's Money Monday, and we're diving into podcast monetization, from sponsors and affiliate links to memberships, merch, and whether small podcasts can actually make money. So, if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, top right-hand side of Clubhouse lets you. And if you're catching us via podcast, YouTube, etc. please share this episode with a fellow podcaster. And now, give us about 30 seconds, and we'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here.

0:53 powered by Ironic Media, helping grow great shows, and by Content creators build real business Good morning again. Podcasting morning show. Thank you so much for being here. I am your host, Mark Ronick, and currently with me on stage, my co-hosts Ralp Estep, D.R. Fay, and BC Babbles.

1:33 We also have our old friend the audience here on the virtual Welcome back, Nikki. Good to see you here. And yes, we will dig into today's Money Monday. What this is.. look, I don't care who you are as a podcaster, I gotta think that this is going to be of interest to you today. Let's talk all about the different ways we can monetize a podcast. We haven't done that in a long time, I think it's time before we do, though. I first want to remind you about our Spotlight series. on this very show, the free with no strings attached, other than you have to put in we're not going to spam you, I What we want you to do is submit a 62nd clip about your show, something that gives people a real feel for your podcast, and then if we select it, we'll play the clip on a future episode, we'll share the things that stood out to us, we'll introduce your show to our community of podcasters and creators, so all you got to do is go to Podcasting Morning show.com/spotlight.com/spotlight and submit your clip, which we hope that it's more, more coming from you as the host, sharing about the podcast rather than just playing a little clip of the show. You could also, if you wanted to, if you're clever enough, you could do a combination.

2:57 I'll throw this in here, where maybe you set up the clip for us and set up a little bit about your show, and then play the clip, so we'll see if anybody heeds that call, but we are starting to get some more because we really want to make today at Podcasting Morning like I said, it is Money Monday, to lead the charge, and I believe this is also a mailbag edition. But Ralph, I'm going to hand it off to you. Let us know what.. what are we doing today? Ralph Estep Jr: Very good. So, what we're going to do today is we're going to talk about monetization, and I want to start by going through some real money questions that podcasts are asking right now, and I think this topic really matters, because, like you said, Mark, every podcaster eventually asks some version of the same question. How do I make this show sustainable? Now, that could mean landing sponsors, might be some affiliate income, it might be membership, merch, live events. Hey, nobody thinks about live events, but that's one coaching courses, selling your own products and services, or maybe simply figuring out how to cover your hook, and because a lot of people say, "Well, I just do this for a hobby. Well, great.

4:08 Well, how about to talk about how to cover your costs, how to cover your editing costs, your software costs, equipment, and time. So today we walk through a set of money mailbag questions, and they're all focused on podcast monetization, and I want this to be interactive, so if you're on Clubhouse, jump into the chat, raise your hand, share your experience. If you've made money from your podcast, I want to hear that as well. If you haven't, that's okay too. Let's talk about what you can do And if money and podcasting still feels confusing, awkward, or out of reach, that's exactly why we're having this conversation today. So we're going to talk about what small podcasters can focus on to be creative and still bring the business side. So, Mark, if you want to get to our first question, you can read that if you would like, that'd be great. Marc Ronick: You got it.

4:55 Yeah, I was totally unprepared here, even though we talked about it, but there. You go, just a little side note for everybody. I'm a little distracted today. My wife, I mentioned on Friday, her health hasn't been the best, and it's taken another turn. Uh, she look, it's nothing life-threatening again. So, I just.. I don't want to put it out there that you know, and make people more concerned than they need to be. But she's not doing great. It's been a big distraction, she's actually in the hospital right now, in good spirits, and overall I will say good health, but there are some concerns that we're dealing with, so it's my mind is a little bit all over the place, so bear with me, please. And with that, this first question in the mail bag here, let me grab it.

5:41 This comes from Jeff in Jeff says I only get 30 to 50 downloads per episode. Do I need to hit a magic number like 1500 listeners before I can start making money from my podcast? Ralph will obviously start with you on this. Ralph Estep Jr: Yeah, I think there's no magic number where a podcast suddenly becomes monetizable, and it's question, because when I first back, I heard this magic number: downloads, and I'll never forget downloads, and I said to a got 10,000 downloads, he says, month, I'm like, dog gone, it, I reached the threshold, Marc Ronick: the magic number.

6:26 Ralph Estep Jr: Yeah, it's downloads per episode, I'm going they call CPM probably aren't because definitely not. Yeah, the math just isn't going to work, so if you're thinking about, hey, I'm going to go into one of the networks, and we'll talk about, we've got another question later in the show about networks and automatic feeds and all that sort of thing, but if that's your plan, I think you need to abandon that. But here's the thing, a small show can still make money if the audience is focused, if they're loyal, and they're connected to a clear niche, and that's what they say, there's gold in those hills, talking about here. So, if you're just getting started, the better monetization options might include listener support. You can do buy me a coffee, you can do Patreon, you can do PayPal.

7:13 There's all kinds of listener support things. Affiliate links work great, product, even a paid community, a workshop, coaching, or services. I want to say this. The key question is not only how many listeners do I have, it's who are they, what do they do, and what value can I provide. That's really my answer to this one, Mark. As we get into the community discussion, but I think we got to start there. listeners do you have, it's who are they, what do they need, and what value can I provide to them? I think that's really the key to this question. Marc Ronick: Yeah, and you're Sid has become very passionate Sid, because he took his smaller, quote unquote, sized audience and was able to monetize it with sponsorships, and he talked about this on Empowered Podcasting Live last Wednesday, and that those were basically the same three questions he said you've got to be able to answer with, you know, clarity and confidence if you really want to monetize your sharing, Ralph Estep Jr: and Mark, even above monetization, if you want to grow your show, you got to know those things, you've got to know who your audience is, what they're looking for, and what value bring to them, regardless of whether you monetize. So, if you're listening right now, or you're watching this, and you say, Ralph, I have no interest in monetizing, this is important to grow your show as well, because I'm sure you want it to grow.

8:36 Marc Ronick: And, Tide, I saw would you share it here on No problem. I was thinking, as far as the monetization piece goes, you audience actually desires, and that you can answer internally. You can also do some, of course, research externally online, but most of the stuff you already know, because you're in the content space, you already know internally what people are thinking, what they feel is hurting them in life, what's holding them back, what's causing them to fail in life. You already know, because you're a subject matter expert. So, I think that that answer is going to come internally, but as far as like what you can stir within the person, a lot of people come from a desperate place, so they, and I know I've been there, so if you have a podcast or a blog or anything else, or maybe you're just talking to someone, maybe you have a great product to sell. How many times have we all gone to someone and tried to push a product or push something that we wanted to sell to them?

9:37 something they bought, it could be an opinion, maybe we wanted them to, you know, agree with sudden we can feel that them. So, if, if somebody's trying to sell you something, you personally think about how you feel when they try to push something on you, you immediately resist. So, are you coming from an honest place? Are you coming from a place that's genuine? Are you coming from a place that, hey, I have this thing, and I think it could really help you, and being relaxed about it, as opposed to like trying to push it and constantly make $1 and I'm going to make money off of you, and all that kind of stuff, because if you're putting out that kind of energy, it's going to be received as such, and people are going to resist that. Marc Ronick: Thank you, Nikki, suppose, which is awesome. Thank you for being here, Ralph. Did you want to respond?

10:23 Ralph Estep Jr: Yeah, I think Yeah, and it's that salesy I think is what you were really getting to if you use a product, if you endorse a product that's a product that you don't need to sell, because you're going to be showing your audience value. I think that's the difference, and I think if you're coming at this from a place of desperation, it's a good time to stop. See, I love what somebody said. They said when you start a podcast, you have no audience and you have trust, but what happens over time is you start to break down that trust. If you're constantly promoting products that you don't use yourself or that you're just trying to sell somebody on something, you're going to break that trust, and that's the cool thing about content creation podcasting, is that you build trust with your audience, and that's something you have to really honor and respect.

11:11 And so, if you're thinking about products, that's why I don't like the CPM model, finance podcast. Could you imagine what kind of crazy ads could be on my show if I just let it go out there to one of those markets where you just throw on whatever you want. I could have people that are really into me, they trust me, and all of a sudden this ad comes out of left field for something, because if I was desperate, I could do that, but I respect my audience enough not Marc Ronick: So, should we, bit about what does a smaller meaning download numbers? What does a smaller podcast do in place of, say, the CPM model? I mean, look, we've, we've talked to Sid, and we will continue to talk with Sid about the fact that, yes, you can get sponsors even with a smaller-sized podcast, but at the same time, there are definitely other areas people can explore, as far as monetizing early on, like with as a new podcast that might not have a lot of listeners out of the gate, or even one that's been around for a while that just still has that more niche audience. So, let's talk about some of those ways to do it.

12:23 suggest? Ralph Estep Jr: Well, I think you got to do two things. I think you have to have a strategy of monetization and a strategy of growth, because I don't want anybody to misunderstand me. Your podcast is easier to monetize when it grows, that's just the truth. that. You need to grow your audience, you need to grow, but when you're first getting started, affiliate links are great for that, because if you're in a niche, what are the products you're using? What are the products you can go out there and reach out to people of the products you use and say, "Hey, can I get some kind of referral? It doesn't cost them anything, and it doesn't cost you anything. You know, a lot of people - we'll talk about this a little bit later, but merch and all stuff that can cost you money, maybe a workshop, maybe a small product, maybe a simple service, and listen, like I said, the beginning, maybe listener support, put that, buy me a coffee, I love buy me a coffee, I don't get a lot of response from it on my particular shows, to be very candid with you, but it's there, right, it's a dripper drap, but anyway, so that's the things I would start, but, but I think you have to really, you have a clear mindset of I've got to do two things, I've got to look for audience, I don't want to get overshadowed on that, Mark.

13:34 Marc Ronick: Yeah, and all chime in on something too, so BC, BC Babbles: yeah, so now one that I think when people think specifically, okay, I bring home as I want to use the money, but I think we could agree here that when you start to monetize the show, what you want to do first is probably reinvest it right into the show, so my question for Ralph would be, do you have a particular say percentage past the covering of the show's expenses, where you'd say, okay, now start to bring that's when you start having heavy money for yourself to bring home as you want to use it, as opposed to just reinvesting into the show to make sure that it keeps operating, Ralph Estep Jr: that's a very good question, PC.

14:24 And it depends on what you're doing. If you're doing this as a full-time gig, I think that's a harder decision to make. But I think if you're doing this as a sideline, I think you put 100% of it back into the show. I don't think you take anything for yourself until it reaches a point where it's at you're adding to some marketing, bc. So, if you're just getting started, and that's another reason when I work with content creators, I tell them, don't quit your full-time job when you're first getting started, you know, do this as a sideline, So, if it's an extra thing, I think you cover your expenses, if. There's a little bit left over. I'm putting that back into marketing. I'm putting that back into maybe some gear that would make me be able to be more seen.

15:07 So, honestly, you know, you but I say, for the first six anything for yourself. Once you get past that and the so is established, then you can start to look at paying yourself. And listen, I'm a huge proponent of pay yourself first, but I think you've got to get to a sustainable level of income before you really should think about doing that. BC Babbles: Awesome. Thank you. Marc Ronick: Interesting. Okay, cool. Yeah, so even if they've got a little bit of income coming in, Ralph, you think that initially they got to first make the show into the business before they start paying themselves? Ralph Estep Jr: Yeah, I just believe that, Mark. And I've been doing this kind of thing for 30 years. Yeah, and even with regular business non-content creators, I think the best strategy is to reinvest it. Because here's the real reason I say that, Mark, is content creator income is like a roller coaster. There is one month you might get a sponsor, you might make some money, you sell some merchandise, and then the next month it's literally crickets, and what worries me is because what happens is when people start to take money from their show, their lifestyle grows, and once your lifestyle grows, you get a bigger house, a different car, you buy gear, you get an editor, you do all those type of things. Well, until you've got a sustainable level of consistent income, I think you got to be really careful with that, and that's why I say put it back into the business, and then once it's sustainable, once you see consistency in your numbers, then you could start to take some money from it Marc Ronick: Dave in the chat a Coffee has been great for him.

16:35 He says that he gets a few of these coffees from his community Yeah, I mean, my experience with Buy Me a Coffee is similar to Ralph's. We don't really see much, even though we keep asking at Podcasting Morning show.com/support If you want to support this show, and yeah, we don't seem to get a lot of those. And quite frankly, in all of my 20 some years of podcasting, I personally, I'm not saying it doesn't work, hear me clearly, but for me, the me a coffee with buy me a don't do much for me. I have not, no matter what podcast I've done, I occasionally get a little, a couple bucks here and there, but in my experience, I don't use those expecting them to be a big revenue stream.

17:28 Ralph Estep Jr: Hey Mark, let a second. I know Dr. wants to comment, but let me flip it around, because I think I, it'd be good to talk about this. What would make you financially support a small podcast? Let's ask the community that, like, if you are a podcaster, what would make you support someone else's podcast? I don't want to interrupt you, y'r, but I don't want to forget to mention that too. Marc Ronick: And by the way, $7,000 in a year from that which, Ralph Estep Jr: that's great. Yeah, that's really good, Marc Ronick: nothing to sneeze at. Yeah, Dave, I was curious if you're willing to share, and I think that's usually publicly shown on Patreon, but I don't know about buy me a coffee. I'm curious, how many subscribers, because it helps me put that into context, right?

18:10 Like maybe it maybe gives me a little bit of a benchmark, like, okay, if I can get these this many people to buy me a coffee regularly, I could make about this amount of money, just curious about that, but let's find out at some answers to Ralph's question, and while we're waiting for that, Dr. you wanted to add something. D.R. Fay: Yeah, I think the buy me a coffee thing is a, it's a perception thing, for instance, I have a seven figure business coach as a client, it would not look good for her to have a buy me a coffee call to action, so coach. So, do you know what I'm saying? Ralph Estep Jr: I agree with you, Dr. Because I think she's selling a product, though, and she's selling coaching, which is the best thing to sell, if you hear nothing else I say today. The best thing you can sell is your D.R. Fay: own, yourself, your own product. Yeah, and I'm talking now to a potential client who is, you know, masters in pharmacology, so she's not hurting for money either.

19:20 So, I mean, it, it's a perception thing, you really have to weigh, you know, what you do, who you are with the whole, please give me money, please, you know, charity kind of thing. Marc Ronick: Well, and as we know, Ralph often encourages, encourages us not to say donate and please give us money, but more support the show is the way Then, is it a bad look, even if we're a smaller show, to be asking for handouts? Does that, because I know that there are podcasters out there that feel weird about it, no matter how big or small, D.R. Fay: the size of the.

20:01 Show matters, I think the the host, what position the host is in matters regarding the buy me a coffee thing. Marc Ronick: Yeah, but and I think about, okay, so yeah, I'm not a seven figure business, but I have a business, I don't want to call it high ticket items, but they're certainly the bucks either, right? Like, you got to invest a little bit of money if you want to, you want help starting a podcast, growing a podcast, etc. So, like, is it a bad look for somebody like me? I don't know, but I know that a lot of podcasters struggle with it.

20:42 BC, go ahead BC Babbles: to branch off of Dr. point. Is it important for us to also consider whether or not the podcast itself is a separate venture from what the person does mainstream? So, if this was something, if Mark did something aside from Ronic, Ironic Media, if he did something else as a completely separate, would that also alter the perception of him utilizing Buy Me a Coffee, some kind of audience-provided Marc Ronick: Yeah. Well, is that a question or a statement? Just making sure. BC Babbles: Question, yeah.

21:23 Babbles: for well, for Dr. As If the podcast itself is a separate venture from what the host does mainstream, in your perspective, would that change the view of someone then asking for buy me a coffee or a pastry? D.R. Fay: Yeah, I think it depends on how much the host is revealing about themselves during that show. If it's a separate kind of thing, let's say my seven figure business coach did a show all about railroads, but she keeps mentioning, well, you know, I have a very thriving business, a business coach, I think that gives into perception about BC Babbles: fair, D.R. Fay: you know.

22:05 Well, you don't, you don't need my money, Marc Ronick: all right. And so, with that, Ralph, where do you want to go from here? Do we keep going? Do you want to me to move on to the next? Yeah, Ralph Estep Jr: let's move on to our next question mark. Marc Ronick: All right, let's do And this comes from Kathy in my hometown, Maryland. My podcast gets around 500 downloads per episode. What's the smartest first monetization move, sponsors, affiliate links, Patreon, or selling my own product? And I guess we've kind of danced around this a little bit. Ralph Estep Jr: Yeah, we don't here, but here's the first is really good, so give yourself accomplishment. That said, CPM is probably still going to be limited, and sponsors might not be the highest paying first move. I think what I would do here is actually do what I call some monetization experiments, and a lot of people try this. Here's where you get into trouble, and I found myself in the same position.

23:04 Is I try to do 10 things at once. So, here's my advice for this person. I apologize, Mark. What was her name again? I apologize, Marc Ronick: Kathy. Ralph Estep Jr: Kathy, Kathy, here's what I would do. I would start with one thing, and maybe an affiliate link for a particular product that's relevant and fits your audience. Do that only do that for 90 120 days. Don't try to attend other things, because that's a promise. Podcast is, we, we get in this vacuum of I'm gonna try everything, and next thing you working, because we're throwing so much stuff with the wall, we're not sure what's sticking. So, I would start by doing one thing, so maybe an affiliate link, you can do the listener support thing, maybe a membership. Those are strong ways to both grow the emotional connection to your show and also grow your audience. And again, I'm going to champion what Dr said, selling your own product is a great thing to do here, but again, it depends on the nature of your podcast. If you can do consultations, a workshop, a course, all of those things are going to be your ideal first moves, and I say first at 500 Listen, a lot of us would be like 500 per episode, fantastic.

24:11 Let me get into some of that, really the thing to go, but So that's what I would do right now. Marc Ronick: Yeah, and listen, perspective, selling your own reason why a lot of us push that as a potentially one of your first options to monetize, is because if you stop and think about it for a second, if you have the quote unquote small audience, right? Like, in my experience, I've found that roughly around 5% of your overall audience are actually going to act, they're actually going to buy things from you or from your sponsors, Ralph Estep Jr: and that's statistics show around 3% Marc Ronick: Yeah, I was..

24:58 I was.. it's.. it depends, right? I've. Seen it for me personally, in my experience, up to five. It's funny you say that, because three, but in my experience, it's been like around five. And if you think about it for a second, even if, even if you have 1020, listeners, and they are loyal listeners, and they are downloading and listening every week, or whatever your cadence is, you get just one person to buy that $500 that $1,000 service that you offer. Well, that's a pretty good month for you all of a sudden, right? Like, you've made some starting with an affiliate that, because I think it's the you're only going to get maybe a affiliate relationship, in So that's why we always encourage, think about a product or service that you can sell to your audience, because there's a much bigger profit margin, a much bigger sale that can be made in that way. Ralph Estep Jr: Yeah, because you could do bonus content, which let me ask the room, has anybody here paid for bonus content, uh, creator membership or some sort of digital product from a podcast?

26:10 Or I'd love to hear what you have to say, and what motivated you to do that, and what did they say to say, "Oh, I got to do this right now. Marc Ronick: I've definitely purchased bonus episodes of one of, like, my favorite shows, when I am an active religious listener to a podcast, and then I find out, like, maybe they've got this one off bonus episode that's an extension of something that they've been talking about that I've been really engaged with, and I'm going to want to hear that, and as long as it's whatever I consider reasonably priced. It, I'm not going to hesitate to purchase that extended episode, that bonus episode, but yeah, I am not shy.

26:53 it's a podcast that entertains problems I'm looking to solve. D.R. Fay: I actually pay for several different newsletters that I get an education from. Substack is a great place for that, and my I'm always on a continuing education basis, and Chris Stone is one of them. My pen pivot is another one. I mean, I, I am constantly paying for really good newsletters that I am continuously learning from. Marc Ronick: There's no right or specific, like any podcast content before, like bonus episodes, or maybe some, or not even courses.

27:46 I mean, specific podcast episodes, like, do you ever buy Patreon? Get into Patreon. D.R. Fay: Yeah, I follow a PR person by the name of.. well, never mind, but she's. she has really very juicy, juicy content that she puts behind a paywall, and Marc Ronick: that's not Lucy, is it? Lucy, D.R. Fay: not Lucy. Okay, not Lucy. I'm sorry. She, she's like the fixer. Does anyone remember that show with Kerry Washington, and she fixed all problems of, yes, all the problems that celebrities get into, she's one of those, and oh, her stuff is so juicy. I just, I couldn't resist. So, Marc Ronick: yeah, so there you go. It's when, so for Dr. What moves the needle is that real juicy material.

28:32 Yeah, right. Okay. BC, you wanted to share, go ahead. BC Babbles: Same thing, I watch a number of interview kind of based shows, and as it's really cool as they kind of grow and they get access to larger and a while off before that's a to get to pay to see like what's worldly and see where they are, also like oh they've got access to this person now, they've got access to this celebrity now, and I've known about this like feel cool to be able to pay for that kind of insight into, but also see how this awesome brand is growing, you know, and it helps kind of reestablish what Marc Ronick: Love it. Thank you. BC, all right, Ralph. The Ralph Estep Jr: other thing I wanted to interject here, this is a great opportunity for all of us to support of other people, and I make a point of this, and I didn't know Dave Campbell had a buy me a coffee, because he will find he's going to have a new subscriber, I think all of us can do that in and go support people that are doing the same sort of thing you're doing, because for $5 a month on buy me a coffee you can really show your support, so I know we're talking about how to monetize your podcast, but let's I think it's a really huge thing that we can do to support each other, because hey, we can all help each other out in this. But Mark, if you want to go on to the next question, we can move on to the next question.

29:50 Yeah, Marc Ronick: and though I think that that's really important for me, I think that what you're saying, paying it forward goes a long way, and if you expect or you. Want people to support your podcast financially. Why aren't you supporting others? Right, that's the way that this great universe works, right. We've got to put, we've got to pay it forward in order to receive as well. So I just wanted to emphasize that point again, Ralph. But yes, Ralph Estep Jr: I think it's super important, Mark, because you know, like you said, you want people to support you. Well, what are you doing to What have you reached out to them and bought one of their mini courses, or do their Patreon, send them a one off? Just think about how much energy that would build when you get something like that yourself. Think about how cool it feels like somebody recognizes you. You have the capacity to do that for other people, and it's not going to put you in the poor house to do it. Set aside 50 bucks a month or 25 bucks a month and go find five people or 10 people to go support. I just think it's a great way to build the community. Marc Ronick: Yep.

30:52 Thank you, Ralph. Appreciate that. All right, pulling out this next This comes from Jamie in Arlington, Texas, a few companies want to sponsor my show, and I'm around 15 to 20,000 downloads per month. How do I know what to charge for a sponsor read? Ralph, Ralph Estep Jr: oh, I love this question. It's a great one, and the thing I think you got to do, start off with, do is breaking down those monthly downloads into episode level downloads, like I said, when I hit that 10,000 in my daily show, the first month I was so excited, and somebody kind of took the air out of my balloon and said, So, if we're going to think, because let's pivot a little bit, let's talk about that CPM formula just for a second.

31:36 So, the basic CPM formula takes your downloads divided by 1000 multiplied by your CPM rate. I know this is kind of like a jargon wheel thing, but I think we need to go here at this point. Marc Ronick: And CPM is cost per So here's a typical example. Let's say you get 5000 downloads per episode at $25 CPM, that means you would get about $125 for one ad placement. That's about what we're talking about here, but here's the thing, I'm going to say to you, is a lot of people get hung up on this. Don't sell for only one ad read. Think about selling packages, multiple episodes. If you've got a newsletter, like Dr. said, she subscribes to newsletters, you can put that out, social post, community visibility, all those things add to the value to this person. A lot of people get stuck on, well, how much can I charge for a host, right?

32:26 At, yeah, there's, there's potentially a number for that. But think about what you're doing, you're inviting them into you're inviting them into that. They're getting a lot more value They're going to be in the really promote this, like I'm to pimp yourself out a little and show where all these things are going to happen, because it's a package, multiple posts, community visibility, move away, I hate the CPM model, probably pretty obvious what sponsoring that beautiful But here's the thing, as you're moving into this, be very clear about the placement, the link, payment terms, and here's about: is the ad baked in, or is Now, let me, that's probably another jargon thing, right, Mark. So we're talking about baked in, the end of time. Marc Ronick: Let me, yeah.

33:29 And what he means by that is, so baked in ads, that means that right? That's what it means to bake it in, because it's baked in, meaning it's going to live there unless you want to remove it at some point. Then you've got to go to your original edited file, edit it out, and then upload it to the episode again, and you know, take down the other audio, the original, and replace it with your new one. That's a pain in the butt, and a lot of work to do, which is why there's also dynamic ads, where some platforms allow you to automatically insert it in and insert it out whenever you see fit, and it basically pauses the ad, Ralph Estep Jr: but you got to be clear with your sponsors to front end what they're getting, because the sponsor might not understand the difference between the two.

34:18 So lay that out, put it all out there in writing, I'm a big proponent of that, but to really answer the question, don't just sell them on a quote host read ad, sell them on the whole economy, the whole ecosystem that you're bringing to the table for them, and I see BC is nodding his head, if he shakes anymore, he's going to shake the whole camera D.R. Fay: down, can we break that down a little bit, like what would a package include for I tell my clients, well, you can like dedicate a whole episode to the product and what the product's about. Hopefully it is in alignment with what your message is. How about la.

35:02 Instagram, you can do lives can ask questions and get a And what else would you say Ralph Estep Jr: Well, Dr. Very gonna grab one thing you first Listen, if it doesn't fit your product, that's not a sponsor that you should have D.R. Fay: right, Ralph Estep Jr: that's where we get into that desperation talk we talked about earlier, but I, you know, who does a really good job of this, James Cridley with Pod News, he is like a master at this. If you notice, every month and then he has sponsors of I'm actually one of his, I think it's gold sponsors for his, his daily show, you get this and you get that, so Dr. I think you got to think in terms of maybe, and it depends on your cadence as well. If you are a daily show like mine, maybe you do a monthly sponsorship, or you do, hey, this show on Mondays is brought to you by X or something like that. But I think bigger than that, your newsletter, social media posts, if you have a community, are you promoting that product out there in the community?

36:02 I think if you bring it to the table of something bigger than that, because here's the thing, it's your show, you do what you want, you know, like person wants to see what am I here's the thing, the person once wants to sell something, move the needle, and if you can help them move the needle, you could have a sponsor for life. can, make it clear, make it Say, here I am going to love on you, I'm going to put you on all the different pieces of the puzzle that I have. So, I hope that answers your question. D.R. D.R. Fay: Yeah, it does, but I also want to make the point of doing a live read statistics have shown that doing a live read is really more effective than anything else, that's what statistics show, but doing a it's hard to remember to get basically on a roll, you're you're on a roll, and you have It takes finesse and talent and skill to kind of weave that ad in, maybe relate it to something This is one of the reasons why I love Conan.

37:23 Conan has a podcast, and he is brilliant with the way he handles his live reads. They're very long, but they're very funny, but that is his skill set. Marc Ronick: Yep, yes, he does. He's one of the best at it, that's for sure. Ralph Estep Jr: And that's why They work because the audience doesn't even realize half the time that they're even in an I'm saying, if you're selling a product that you use, that you endorse, that you say, "Here's not really an ad read at that "Here's what works for me, and they're going to go do business with this particular company, Marc Ronick: and entertainment advantage, I think, because they content, where your audience right? Like, I think it's harder for some that may be more serious podcasts, more focused podcasts, where you know, just to try to like casually weave it I believe you can do it regardless, no matter what kind of show you have. But I just thought I'd call that out because I was remembering the big show that I used to work on, the Mike O'Mara show.

38:36 You always knew when they were doing a commercial, but at the same time, when they would do it, you would still lean in as a would want to just hear what antics they were going to get into while they were doing the commercial read, they would always find a way to make it funny, even though we knew at these times during the podcast they always do a commercial, it didn't matter, because people just wanted to get entertained by wondering what was going to come next. D.R. Fay: I also wanted to touch on the fact that maybe your host is not skilled in the way to do those live shades. A pre-taped message, for instance, let's say your call to action is you're trying to build a community on one of the platforms, like school.

39:25 Okay, so a pre-taped message about that is can be effective if you helpfully, you have a good editor that can whoosh you in, you know, give us that whoosh sound. Mark, Marc Ronick: oh man, okay, D.R. Fay: there you go. If you wish it in, whoosh it out, have a little maybe a music bed underneath what you're saying. I think that that can be effective as well. Marc Ronick: Speaking of which, Ralph, what's coming up for tomorrow's episode? Ralph Estep Jr: Oh, you know If I was next, I'd give you a big hug, because you just. Walked us right into where we're going tomorrow. Tomorrow we've got Jody Krangle. She's going to join the show. She is a voice over and a sound person, and she's going to talk to us about how to bring that sound and those that soundscape of how to make your listeners really feel great about your episode.

40:15 She's going to talk to us about her many years of experience to invite voiceovers and really the art and science of sound, so going to be here, and I am telling you what I am excited. I can't wait to hear what she has to tell Marc Ronick: us. Yeah, and I want to talk to her a little bit about how we use our voices too as podcasters, right? Because there is a way, a style that we can adopt that, like you're saying, Ralph, really helps that audience feel welcomed, feel like this is the right place. They, it helps with their trust with the host, etc. So, I want to learn more from her about that stuff too. So, looking forward to Jody Crank, Ralph Estep Jr: and, like Dave said, she's a Canadian, so we gotta, we got a thumbs up from Dave. So, is it, uh, she's going to be good? Hey, Marc Ronick: okay, Ralph, I'm not sure if this is something that's coming up in the mailbag or not, but we've talked a lot about sponsorships and bringing on sponsors, and we haven't yet really talked about how do we know what to charge them, that is such a common question that I get from podcasters when they start thinking about bringing in Well, okay, but I have no idea what to charge them.

41:26 So, what would you tell somebody that says that or asks that? Ralph Estep Jr: That's a hard question, Mark. You just stumped me, because this is the question I get a lot now, working with content creators, and I wish I could tell you I had a great answer for that. I don't. I will tell you this: if you go back to the CPM model, we can take that apart a little bit, so you can look at your audience. You could say, "Okay, well, if I got this many downloads, if I was going to do CPM, here's how much money I would be earning. You start there. I think that's a base number, but bigger than that, I think what you have to do is just kind of put some numbers out there and just say, "Hey, what, what do you, what do you want to give me, and what is it you're willing to pay? The problem is, as content creators, we'll undersell ourselves a lot of times. So, I think you put a bigger number out there than you think you actually could get, because a lot of people think, and this is true of sales in general, a lot of people think, well, if my price is right, I'll sell it every time.

42:17 Well, guess what? If you sell it every time, your price is too low. Yeah, so you, you want people to say no. So, what I say is, start at a high number and see how many nos you get, and then start to drop that down a little bit till you get a yes. Because if you can get a yes at a high number, then maybe that sets the tone of where you're going to be, because it's easy to say, well, I'm going to sponsor, I'm going to do $100 a month for a sponsor. What if you could get 10,000 a month. What if you could get 5000 a month? What if you could get 1000 a month? If you don't ask, you're never going to get that. Marc Ronick: Yeah, and I know that Sid has shared that he actually feels like he did undersell a little bit because he's now found himself in certain occasions scrambling a little bit because he's got a lot of work to do for maybe not quite the same value of what you I'm having this conversation, and I go down a similar road as you, Ralph, and I'll say to the podcaster, well, how much do you think it's worth, right? And eventually I'll get them to come up with an answer, and then I'll tell them to one and a half times that, just just up it, because, like you said, we undersell ourselves a lot. Ralph Estep Jr: I'll give you a great example of this. I was working with a client, it's probably been 15 years ago, he washed windows, that was his job, he was a window washer, and he came to me and he said, Ralph, he says, man, I am so busy, I've got a three month backlog, I can't get, I can't even get my work done.

43:43 I said, your prices are too low, and he says, What do you mean, my prices are too low? I said, Here's what I want you to do tomorrow, I want you to double your prices. He said, Ralph, if I double my prices, no one is going to call me. I said, do me just listen to me. So he goes away. Three months later, he comes back, and I said, How are things? He goes, Man, he says, I didn't want to do what you said, I didn't double my prices, but I He goes, 'I lost zero He said, 'I still have a three month backlog. He says, 'Ralph, when I leave this meeting today, I'm going to do what you said, I'm going to double my prices. Guess what? He doubled his prices, and he still had a three month backlog. He ended up tripling his prices, and then he finally started to see some attrition. So we all think that we can't like what Bez put in the chat. He said the formula comes from knowing their business and what they are trying to accomplish.

44:27 That should drive your formula and make it fair. Don't leave money on the table. I agree, Bez, what is the value you're giving your audience? What is the value that advertiser, that sponsor, is getting? Put numbers on that, because if you're solving a problem, and they are the conduit to solving that problem that is worth a lot to them. Marc Ronick: BC has something. BC Babbles: Yeah, and one of the a great thing to do, and I think a lot of us creatives have this same block when we're trying to really make sense of the pricing we have for what we offer, and a colleague of mine mentioned this on their podcast. Cast a couple months ago, and I loved when they did this. Learn to line item the process of the service. A lot of times people think single service, single product, therefore the pricing should be minimal, but when you really line item out, what it looks like, and this goes back to you mentioning having to remove a baked-in ad, right? The process, the difficulty that is break down line item, what the provision of that sponsorship looks like on your end to help make sense of why your pricing is what it is. Just in case you get additional pushback, if they see that this is quite the process to put their logo here, here, here, and record this, this, and that, it makes more sense for your pricing to be where it should be. Marc Ronick: Yeah, thank you, BC. It's a great, yeah, I like that one too. That's a great way to approach it. And so, look, I think that ultimately, if somebody's still kind of hanging on our words here and wondering, charge, right? I think one way to do this is reach out to a few different podcasters, see what they're

46:00 charging, right? And this is such a great community. really engaged with the ours. Go to our Facebook group, Empowered Podcasting, search for that, and join us, and ask your question there, and see what people say. Or join Pod Fest Facebook group as well, and put it in a few different groups, see what what people say. And yes, BC says Chat GPT. You could ask Chat GPT too. Why not, right? It's at least giving you a starting point. I do think that every podcast, not every, but I do think a lot of podcasts are different, and I think it's important to try to, you know, poll the audience, if you will, poll your fellow podcasters and see what they're charging. I don't think you should charge any less than $100 for a 30 to 62nd spot, and regardless, even if you have 15 downloads a month, I say start at least at $100 for a 30 or 62nd spot.

46:54 At least start there, but I think you could get a lot more than that, and like Ralph said earlier, package this. Don't just charge for one episode. It's not worth it. It's not worth your time. It's not worth the pitch. It's not worth the effort. Put it at least for a month or a quarterly package. D.R. Fay: Let me just interrupt here for a second. I'm sorry. There is a saying in the television, and it's happening, it happens in radio, and now I'm podcasting, that people have to hear the pitch, the call to action, at least what I think think it's up to like 11 or 12 okay, D.R. Fay: something like that, in order for people to say, hey, I think I go for that, so yeah, just one episode is not going to do you any good, Ralph Estep Jr: and just think about this, D.R.

47:52 If you're doing a baked-in ad and you're just getting started, if you knock it out of the park five years from now, that sponsor is still going to be getting all the gold from what you brought to them for that whole period of time, so don't undersell yourself, like Mark said. I think it's easy to undersell what you're doing, especially baked-in ads, which I'm not a big fan of those, because companies go out of business, things change. I think dynamic is the way to go, but if you're going to do that, there's a lot of value in that. Marc Ronick: Okay, Ralph, we're going to move to the next question. Here, let me.. and I just remembered that, you know, where I'm on video now. My secret is revealed. Everyone's seeing what I'm doing, which is just grabbing a bunch of pieces of paper and old checks and stuff that's sitting on my desk, BC Babbles: envelopes, and send that to you.

48:40 Marc Ronick: Yes, that would be great. That'd be great. Yes, I think that would be perfect. All right. Well, this Ralph Estep Jr: one have this one mark. Marc Ronick: What's that? Oh, that's a good one. Is that a sound effect? Ralph Estep Jr: It Marc Ronick: is. Oh, nice. So you're not actually crumpling papers there. Ralph Estep Jr: That's too much effort for me anymore. Marc Ronick: All right, I'm This is from I'm skipping a Tony in Portland, Oregon. Tony says, I qualified for ads through my podcast host, but Should I wait on platform ads, sponsorships myself? What do you think, Ralph?

49:20 Ralph Estep Jr: Oh yeah, I was because a lot of people get onto think they've arrived. The problem with platform ads is they may not match what you're doing in your show. I have been listening to shows where all of a sudden it's like I had whiplash because this post was talking about one thing and I'm here to add for something completely different than that, that's the problem with the platform ads, that's the problem with joining a network again. What are you doing to your audience? So, like I said, qualifying for a platform ad program is great, but it doesn't sell. People still have to go out there and buy those ads, and the ad marketplace depends on advertisers' demand, category, geography. Audience size available inventory, and here's the thing: they're convenient, but I don't think they should be your only monetization strategy.

50:08 sponsorships give you more pricing, and the messaging. you want to use platform ads, inventory when you're still yourself. I don't think that's a terrible plan, but again, know what you're putting on your show. What are you going to be subjecting your audience to? anybody could put an ad on there It could be a philosophical, it could be a political ad, any of those things that you might not like. So just be aware that when you're going with those platform of those, to be blunt. Marc Ronick: Okay, cool. And does anyone else want, because I want to try to get to at least one or two more. Does anyone else want to respond, or shall I move to the next one?

50:54 All right, I'm going to move on. This one comes from Sophia in Pennsylvania, listeners keep Is print on demand worth it, or should I do limited merch drops and ship everything myself? I'm curious, not just for Ralph here, I'm curious what others think about this, because merch is often a common way that a lot of podcasters like to jump into the monetization game, and I'm experience, what you would say So, again, do we do print on demand, is that worth it, or should we limit to merch drops and ship everything ourselves?

51:34 Ralph Estep Jr: I will jump into the thing about merchandise for me, a lot of people think merchandise is going to be this big profit center. I do not believe that. I think merchandise is great for building your community, I think print on demand is a good way to do that, because it's low risk, doesn't cost anything. In fact, I have a merchandise store, I don't sell much with it, but that wasn't the point of it. The point of it was people get a shirt that could get a something like that. It was all about building that community. Once you've got a community built, then you might consider doing some self-managed inventory, where you do an ad, you know, where you do something sell this much stuff, but I think it all comes down to because you want to carry the cost of inventory, you might end up with a lot of shirts or whatever hats you're never going to sell. That's why I like to print on demand, but just understand it's not going to be a huge profit center for you. Now, if you are going to do that, I would do something that really identifies the show's identity. Maybe there's a catch phrase like I'm going to do one for Dr. You know, words are hard in the morning. I think we should have a words are hard in the morning shirt, that's something that's inside joke. It's an audience thing, you know. We could do something like I hit the wrong button again, or under the bus, BC is falling that. Hey, wake up.

52:58 Those are all things that are going to appeal to the community, and that's going to reinforce the community, and then what happens is somebody goes out in the community and wears that shirt or shows that mug, and then somebody goes, "Oh, what is that all about? What, what's hard in the morning? Who, who is Dr. Why is words hard in the morning for her? And then they're going to tune in, because, and that's the way you build a business, but it's not going to be a big profit center for you at the front end, so don't spend a lot of money, and you know, have a whole shipping material set, but then you got to deal with shipping, you got to deal with returns, you got to deal with all that garbage. It just, it's not a fun place to be. Marc Ronick: BC, before we go to stage because Jeff does sell a lot of merch, so I'm sure he has Good morning, Jeff. Welcome back.

53:47 What did you want to add? Jeff: Hey, hey, great to be here stand-up comic for like 20 years, so the old school was you bought like 100 shirts, and then you tried to sell them, so you had to upfront. So, print on demand is a godsend. I mean, in terms of not having to upfront all those costs and do all that. So, absolutely, I recommend checking out T Public, because they kind of advertise for you. I also recommend that you don't just make podcast shirts, like I gotta be honest with you, I've every month, and I've never sold T-shirt, but I make pop culture related shirts, and those sell. I will also say that I've made hundreds of stuff, and probably only 10 of them have ever sold. Some have sold a lot, and some will collect dust until D.R. Fay: the give us an example of one or two of your pop culture shirts.

54:56 Jeff: Sure, I have a Jaws one Kind of Jaws Lego, that's just the poster that looks like Lego. I have some Twilight Zone ones that I've done, some guacamole ones. Let's Guac about it is one of my Marc Ronick: Interesting, I'm Okay, I totally am with you as far as the podcast related shirts themselves are harder to sell in some cases, and so I love that you're since you're a pop culture show, you're doing pop culture related shirts. Do you include anything about your podcast with the merch, whether maybe it's your podcast logo somewhere else on the shirt, or maybe when it's sent, do you send something promotional about the podcast, I'm just curious if that, if that's Jeff: what they send it, so I never do it, but I don't. It's not a bad idea, like I'll be honest, I was inspired by Mark Ronnick's shirts, and so I stole some of his ideas, like, and made like a Star Wars classic conversations, certain your friends' ones, you know, those were my original inspiration.

56:03 So, I, I'll give you full credit think it's great, like, I just went to a comic con all weekend, right, is with my press pass, so I had made classic conversation shirts, so it's easy now for me, I can make any shirt I want, and then just buy it real cheap, you know, I mean, it's like 15 bucks or whatever, and then I wear my own shirt to the comic cons, and walking around where it's very relevant to my audience and stuff like that. So, for that D.R. Fay: question, I have a question about copyright, because you've mentioned Star Wars, you've mentioned Jaws, people will probably want to know about copyright infringement. Jeff: Yes, check with your and I have gotten stuff taken gotta say that there's people than mine. Yeah, like T Public will just take it down, they'll just take it down if there's an issue, and also, Marc Ronick: you know, if Jeff is doing like what I was doing with the Star Wars related merch to his podcast, you know, nothing on my, my shirt says podcast written like the logo of Star Wars. There's nothing that says Star Wars, so it's probably.. it could be a little more difficult, a little more challenging to be for them to come at me for it, because it doesn't, it, you know, it.. it looks a little like Star Wars, but it's really nothing, nothing with this was one great idea is if you're going to do something like Jeff does, yeah, add your podcast logo somewhere. I used to do it sometimes,

57:34 encourage my clients to put it on the sleeve, put like your logo on the sleeve there, or put it small underneath whatever the main print is on the front or the back, but yeah, why not, right? Just, just so that when that person puts it on every time, they see that, and then hopefully when others are looking at that shirt, they see that, and maybe it becomes a conversation starter, and then maybe you get another listener out of it. It's not the quickest and easiest way to get a new listener, but it is a way to If you're going to sell merch and you're not going to make your podcast the dominant thing on the shirt, at least make it something, put it somewhere where someone could see it, in my opinion. All right, listen, Ralph, we're gonna have to save, because I know we have a pretty big bag here of mail, so we're gonna have to save this, maybe for the just reopen it another day. Ralph Estep Jr: Absolutely, I think that's exactly what we'll do.

58:27 That'll be fun, Marc Ronick: awesome, cool. So, thank you all for a great conversation today. Remember that tomorrow we have our guest, Jody Krangle, joining us. Jody's an old friend of mine, an old Clubhouse friend of mine as well. So, looking forward to that conversation with her tomorrow. Join us 8am Eastern Time at Podcasting Morning So until then, make it a great day, everybody. Take care.