497. What This Podcast Review Reveals About Storytelling

0:05 Good morning podcasting Morning Chat. Today is Thursday, April 16th, 2026, and today we're evaluating A listener's podcast salvage, diving into narrative tension, immersion, storytelling craft to uncover what hooks listeners and what could elevate the experience. So if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, top right hand side of the screen and share it. However, Clubhouse lets you. And if you're catching this via podcast, YouTube, etcetera, please share this with a fellow podcaster. And now give us about 30 seconds. We'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here. Podcasting Morning Chat is powered by Ironic Media, helping podcasters launch, Polish and grow great shows, and by content Creators Accountant, helping creators build real business behind their content.

1:20 Good morning again podcasting morning chat. Thank you so much for being here. I am your host Mark Ronic and currently on stage with me my Co hosts Dr. Faye, Ralphie Steps, Sid Meadows, Matt Bliss, Nick Naalbach and Dominic Howard and also Tide AKA Nikki has joined us from the audience. Good morning to all of you and a shout out to those of you who have already joined us here in Clubhouse, Dave, Tim, Austin, Leaping, Leaping Bear and Chris. Chris, good to see you back as well. Let me clear my throat. Thank you. Sorry about that. We were just talking about hydration and I guess I need to be better hydrated this morning.

2:04 So before we dive into today's discussion evaluation of salvage, which I think a lot of us are excited to talk about, I want to remind you about Ralph's duo. We're giving away his Rd. caster duo, lightly used. He's had it for about 9 months. He's upgraded, so it's time for him to get rid of that one. He's also offering a free monetization strategy session designed to help you make smarter moves with your show. And as I always say, the Duo is a really great piece of gear, good for beginners or advanced podcasters, has multiple audio sources.

2:46 It is small and compact, easy for on the go recording. And before I go any further, Ralph, will you share briefly about the strategy session? Absolutely. I will work with you one-on-one to try to help you build a content monetization strategy for your particular show, whatever works best for you. So we'll sit down, we'll do a Zoom call, and we'll walk through what you want to do with your show, and I'll give you some tidbits of how to make that happen. Thank you, Ralph. And you can get your entries, multiple entries, multiple ways to throw your hat in the ring by going to podcastingmorningchat.com/duo. Check that out.

3:28 I mean, we have lots of entries in there and would love to see you in there as well. All right, let's see here. All right, Yeah, I think we this is a good place to dive in. So as I said, we are digging into the show Salvage. And this is a narrative podcast and it's about really all things, all stories, adventures, etcetera from the sea. That's I guess the best way to put it. And when I heard that we were going to be doing this episode, I was curious how if it would really grab my attention because quite frankly, I mean, yeah, sure.

4:08 I think the Moby Dick story, which is what this episode is about. Well, it's about the real life story that inspired Moby Dick. You know, I'm sure. I think I'm curious about the Moby Dick story and the fact that there there's a true story behind it. But still, I just didn't know if this was going to grab my attention or not. And boy, spoiler alert was I surprised. And yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this episode and there's a lot to get into. I'm going to play some clips here in a second to get you, our listener, on the same page as us. So we have several clips to play and we're going to bring you into this experience with us. And the whole idea here is, yeah, we want to help this particular podcaster, but we believe that breaking down any podcast can help our podcasting audience a great deal. There's a lot to learn from podcast, whether they are really well done, really poorly done, or somewhere in the middle. I think we can find learning experiences for everyone. So DRI saw you wanted to chime in first. Go for it.

5:16 Yeah. Well, you know, I've been so wrapped up in my work and my clients, which are all brand based podcasts, basically entrepreneurial podcasts, that I very rarely reach out of my zone and listen to something that is not entrepreneurial. And this really had me. I mean, I loved it. And I was telling people earlier that, you know, I'm the type of person that follows all those TikTok, those short little TikTok things with the bass singer singing yo-yo. And the ship is swaying from side to side with the waves crashing.

6:00 So that's the first thing I thought of when I started listening to this, but it really, it made me reach out of my comfort zone and I really loved it. OK, there you go. And let's talk briefly about the host. I know that, Matt, you dug in a little bit and learned some things about the host that I didn't know 'cause we were having a sidebar conversation. Curious if you would share a little bit about what you know about the host, because I think it adds to the credibility of the storytelling. So, Matt, what do you know about our host? And please forgive me, I totally have forgotten his name. Richard Wesson. That's in Wesson, yeah. Depends. On where you're from and how you say it, I guess because I actually, there's precious little that I actually know about him. I did the exploration because I think it's a, it's probably a good bit of feedback for him that maybe inserting a bit of himself in the show is OK.

6:54 But Richard, as far as I could tell, is a Northern Irish, probably Belfast based from the accent as far as I can tell. But he works for His Majesty's Coast Guard, from all I can see could be decorated in that respect. The earliest bit of reporting I could find about him was in 2020 when he he received something specific award for it. But I think the part of the reason that I wanted to do this is that it speaks to his experience for what he's talking about as subject matter. And someone might listen to this as a great story. But giving that story authority can really lend to the credibility of the host. And I think it does hear someone who's a decorated Coast Guard for one of the most turbulent seas you can imagine.

7:41 And the fact that he works in Northern Ireland and Belfast was where the Titanic was made and had famous shipyards that sent ships across the world. I think it's a really good history to talk to for the podcast. It's a when we start off with podcasts, it's easy for us to kind of fall back into the shadows and let the content do the work. But I think Richard should feel a bit more confident about perhaps inserting some of that history credibility. Like, I thought he was a nautical historian. I thought that would suit really well. But I think his experience in ocean salvage and rescue would really, you know, add some stuff to this show. Yeah, and thank you for adding some stuff to this show because it's like I said, I didn't do the homework, and I'm glad that you did and got a little bit more of a background about this host.

8:33 Yeah. And so, yeah, we're going to evaluate this one particular episode. Again, it's called Salvage. And like I said, it is a narrative storytelling podcast that focuses on, to be more specific, historic ocean events, survival stories, real people, fatal decisions. So we're going to learn the way that podcasters should listen, not just for whether the story is interesting, but for how the show builds tension, how the host carries the story, how the episode is structured and where the experience could become even stronger. So I think what we will do, Yeah, let's do this. I'm going to go ahead and play the first clip for you.

9:15 This is the intro. And I think we're what I'd like you to do is listen to the opening and just notice what happens in this first minute, minute and a half. And how does it make you feel what it what is, what does it promise? How effectively does it bring you into the story? So let's play this clip and then we'll talk about it. A huge wheel rammed their ship not once, but twice. It was 1820 in the Pacific Ocean in the middle of nowhere, and the wheel ship was the Essex.

10:03 And this is a story that's almost unbelievable and becomes quite traumatic to say the least. But it's all true. The 20 men on board could not believe what had happened. They'd heard of whales striking ships before. It did happen occasionally. Usually the whale would ram once and disappear back into the deep. Not this one. This creature, longer than a bus, struck them twice in what appeared to be a deliberate attack. But why annoy? The men were stranded in their open wooden boats with only a few rations, with open ocean in every direction for thousands of miles.

10:54 The question is, would they survive? Well, that would depend on some very, very difficult decisions that you're going to hear about today. I'm Richard Wasson and this is Salvage. All right, So what do we think? I'm going to go to Dominic 1st. And by the way, Dominic Lawson, I know I said Howard and I think that's because Dominic, I don't know if you knew this, but I knew somebody growing up named Dominic Howard and I think it just totally slipped out for the first time that way. So please forgive me for saying Howard, I do know your last name. You are a good friend of mine.

11:40 So with that, Dominic, curious as our narrative storyteller, podcaster extraordinaire, what stood out to you right away hearing that intro? Good morning. Good morning everybody. Hope everybody is well. I think what stood out to me initially was the tone was set with the sound of the ocean waves, right? It said. So I mean, obviously we know we're listening to in a maritime podcast, but it really puts us in the mindset that we're on the ocean. And then he says, you know, a ram struck not once, but twice, right? It's like, oh, crap. OK, so we're, we're diving right into the, the, the tension, the problematic parts of this story, right?

12:28 And so I'm like, OK, wow, why, why did the ram strike twice? Why does it, you know, why this particular case, right? And then there's also the foreshadowing of, you know, what's going to happen later on and stuff like that. And then I think for me, two things. One, the fact that he says this is absolutely true, like this happened, right? It's not mythical. It's not whatever. Like this actually happened. And I think that's important because I think a lot of times when we're listening as consumers, we're curious, like, you know, this didn't happen. You're making this up, right? And I think that adds to the intrigue. And lastly, for me, and I'll just be dumb American here, the Irish accent does it for me. It's something about the Irish accent and being in this maritime journey that we're about to go on. It makes sense.

13:25 I'm not saying that, you know, an American accent wouldn't do it, but it's something. It amplifies it for me. Like, OK, we're I don't know if it gives it a level authenticity. I don't know if it gives us a level of like, you know, just add to the storyteller, but it does something for me. And so that's what I noticed off the bat. Love that. Yeah, and I'm with you. Like, and I think others have shared this as well, that the accent really added to it. And I know it's funny because we've had other podcasts that we've evaluated that have had had accents and some people, some of our American podcasters here have had trouble sometimes following along. And it seems like in this case, the accent does work really well.

14:07 And I'm with you, Dominic. Like, I think, sure, the right kind of American voice would still work really well here. Like, you know, a James Earl Jones type voice would be pretty powerful listening to a story like this, right? But yeah, there I agree. There's something that really draws you into the story that much more with the accent. Let's see. Nick, did you want to chime in? Yeah. Good morning. Good morning. Yeah, good morning, everybody. I, the intro definitely pulled me in like Dominic's point. The the tension that is brought into the show almost immediately kind of sucks you into it. And I think the sound effects and then the music, I thought the music at the back end of that little intro there like fit perfectly with the feeling that he's giving you while telling the story.

15:01 And honestly, I almost want more music and more sound. I listened to it this morning and I didn't really catch it as you replayed it again. Now when he comes in and he's kind of telling the story, like it does build tension. And I feel like some like music building along with him as he's going leading into like that final like musical intro, I think would just amplify the tension that he's trying to create with it. But I like I'm he. I was sucked in after that first little intro. Yeah, I think we'll get into that. At least I intend to get into that today about some of the sound design choices and I'm glad Dominic is here as well because I think he can add on to it.

15:45 It's great to have a multi award winner on stage with us, especially that does the narrative podcasting thing. I think this is going to add so much more value. So I'm so happy Dominic Lawson is here this morning. No, really quickly and I can hold my thoughts, but I actually actually, you know, I slightly disagree with Nick on this one. OK, but and the reason I said as far as the more music, because I think sometimes no sound design is the best sound design, right? And I think in this instance, the very minimal music as to the eeriness, right? It it actually adds to the intensity of like, oh, crap, just tell me what happens.

16:28 It's like, because you know how sometimes you're, you know, the worst thing is not knowing that you just want to get it over with. But I think sometimes the less less is more. Which I know sounds cliche, but I actually slightly disagree with Nick on this one. Yeah, I mean, look, I wasn't finding myself wanting more sound design in this moment. I think later in the episode there are moments where I feel like it could be helpful. But yeah, I'm with you, Dominic. It's not that I necessarily disagree with Nick, It's just that from my first time listening experience, I didn't feel like the need for that. And by the way, I see that Matt was nodding his head as Dominic was sharing, and so was Ralph for that matter.

17:09 Oh, and by the way, if you're not going to podcastingmorningchat.com/join us to check out our video, I highly encourage that you do because Ralph has an amusing shirt on a very appropriate for our money guy, our tax guy. So yeah, go check that out if you haven't already. And DRI know you wanted to chime in as well. Go for it. Sorry, I'm in. The Kitchen. But I just wanted to get this in when we were talking about the accents and how it lended itself very well to the storytelling. I also wanted to put in there that he's a hell of a storyteller. He reads really well, you know? So I just wanted to get that in.

17:49 Yeah, and we'll play some more clips demonstrating some of that storytelling here in a moment. Matt, did you want to chime in? Yeah. Just very quickly to point out that this one we're reviewing today is the first episode that he put out, and I think a lot of kudos needs to go his way for all the things he's gotten right. Like we don't know how many episodes he's practiced, how many hours he put into this particular episode to get it just right. But like, you can stumble into the magic that happens that Dominic was talking about that we all agreed with here on the video that the silence adds a bit more. And I reflect that on in books these days too. Like today with the shortest tension span thing, it's always important to move the next thing. Watch a movie trailer from like 1996 and compare it to a movie trailer today and you'll be incredibly surprised. Same with books that were written back then. There was way more room for the imagination to fill the gaps. And I think you should stick with it to a degree. But I agree with you too, Mark, that there's some sound design choices you can make further on as the story gets told that can add a little bit more.

18:59 Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Matt. We will play some more clips in a moment. I know several people still want to chime in. I'm going to skip my Co hosts for a minute because one of our community members is on stage wanting to chime in. Tide, did you have something for us? It's going to make the smallest of observations. So when he said whether they were going to survive depended on some very, very difficult decisions that you are going to hear today. The only thing I would just eliminate is that phrase that you are going to hear today and just end it with whether they survive is going to depend on some very, very difficult decisions.

19:39 OK. Yeah, that's an interesting observation. I have to sit on that for a minute because yeah, does it. I guess the point, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that you feel like maybe he's pulling us out of the story by addressing us and instead of. Yeah, in a way I did feel that way just for like a split second. And I said, oh, I wish he didn't do that because I felt like the sentence would have had more impact. And as a write a lot as a writer and all that kind of stuff, I'm always looking at. The way I can phrase the sentence for maximum impact, and most of the time that has to do with eliminating words as opposed to adding them. Yeah, interesting.

20:21 I have some notes that we'll get into later and I think several other people have talked about that when they provided their breakdown of this episode, talked about some moments where we might have been pulled out of the story momentarily. So I want to we will get back into that as well. Thank you for bringing that up. Ralph, you wanted to add something? Yeah, I just wanted to say when I first started listening to this, I had to go back and check was this really this guy's first episode? Because honestly, dude, I thought this was a professional podcast from the moment it started playing. When I went back and figured out that this guy, this was his first podcast. Well, at least with this particular show, I don't know what he's done before, but I was like, I don't have a lot to offer here in ways of helping this guy. I got some ideas on having a website 'cause it doesn't like he has one and we could talk about that later on. But man, from the standpoint of just knocking it out of the park at the front end, home run, dude, home run. Yeah, Yeah.

21:23 I am really impressed, like you said. I mean, maybe he's had other podcasts that we don't know about, but as as far as we know, this is his first podcast and with what, maybe 2 episodes, I am totally thoroughly impressed. Yeah. OK, Nick, I think you had something you wanted to add. I'm just going to comment what others are saying to push back on my comments just kind of a little where my mind is going with that because I do agree like what everyone is saying, like silence is extremely powerful. And I think in this instance, like the show gives me very much like a almost like a documentary kind of feel to it. And in many documentaries, there is some kind of sound or track in the background that you can kind of hear playing. And to me, when you have something like that intention is building, that's when the silence becomes, like, magnified.

22:17 And when you go from the sound of the waves crashing to silence with him speaking, I feel like the tension hasn't built yet to that point where the silence can speak even bigger volumes. So that's kind of where my mind was going is like, yeah, because I had that same thought when Dominic was talking about that. Like, should there be music in here or should it just be silent? And I think music building to the silence, like some of the building up to the last couple things he says. And cutting the sound out or the music out from there, I think would have been like heart stop, like, oh, crap, here we go kind of thing. But that that was just some backing my case. Yeah. And look, podcast listening, like almost everything, is subjective, right?

23:01 We have our different things that some of us may gravitate to, others may not. And I don't think it's an awful suggestion. I just also agree, kind of agree with both of you. Like I would kind of want to hear what it would sound like if we did something more like what Nick is suggesting versus that silence. I'm curious, does anybody feel like I'll play it again real quick? Does anyone feel like the ocean waves, and I know this is nitpicking, but when you have a really good show, sometimes you have to nitpick to find some constructive criticism. Do you think the waves at the beginning were a little too long?

23:44 A huge. Wheel. So what do you think? Was that too long or do you think, and maybe Dominic, you can speak to this as somebody who does a lot of sound design, Do you think that that's a an appropriate amount of time to play those ocean waves or should he have come in sooner? And I know it's nitpicking a bit. No, no, for sure. It's one of those things where it's like from a podcast industry, you got to hook him in very soon, get on with the story. Yes, it's maybe a too long, but from an artistry trying to build the story from the beginning, no. Right. So I think the answer is it depends, which I know is a. That's a common. Phrase here. I know it's phoning it in, right, but but it really does depend. So I think it really lends to what the what his goal is for the show.

24:34 If it's like for, you know, the industry part of it, then yeah, maybe come in a little sooner. I don't think you lose the artistic whatever. But if that's what he's trying to do, I think it's perfect. OK, there you go. Yeah, me personally, I would have cut that down a little bit, maybe a cup 2, two to three seconds of it just to jump in a little bit sooner. And I think if you did that, you wouldn't lose a whole lot. No, I don't either. I agree with you. Yeah. And by the way, I do want to also shout out what I noticed he did on YouTube. So, you know, he does not have a video version, but he puts his podcast up on YouTube and it looks like he's doing it as a separate upload.

25:16 In other words, he's not distributing it as an RSS feed to YouTube. He's actually uploading it there. And what he's doing is it's basically like his cover image, but it's animated. The waves are actually moving the whole time as you're listening to the video. So I just thought that was a smart, nice little touch. It's not obviously the most engaging, but it is nice that it's better in my opinion, than a static image if you're going to put up audio only on YouTube. Sid, I saw you had you threw up a pepper a moment ago. Did you want to chime in on something? Thank you, Mark. Good morning, everybody. I'm actually going to wait because I wanted to follow up to Tide's comment and then you commented it.

26:00 You're going to address that a little bit later. Let's. Yeah. Well, I think that was the comment. Yeah. I think that this addresses the comment. I'll go to it right now. One of the things that I think this episode does really well, actually, we'll go to it in a second because I want to do this first. What I think it does really well is it takes history and makes it easy to picture. So I'm going to play this clip. These next moments are small. There's not, I'm not going to play a huge build up, but they matter because they show how a storyteller can make old information feel immediate and understandable. So like I said, this first clip plays plays a couple of examples of what I'm talking about, but I think it's doing a lot of the work. Listen for how he compares.

26:48 He makes this comparison to make history click for us a little faster. They had come from Nantucket, a tiny island off the coast of Massachusetts in the United States. Think of Nantucket as the Saudi Arabia of its day. The Essex was 87 feet long, not very big at all by today's standards. That's about roughly just shorter than a basketball court. The 20 men lived and worked on her for years at a time. The smells on a wheel ship are something we can hardly imagine today. Bodies unwashed, rotting food and wheel blubber with a smell so thick you could taste it.

27:35 I love how he says whale, by the way. Wheel. That's what it sounds like to this American anyway. So what am I getting at here? The reference to Nantucket being the Saudi Arabia of its day or the comparison of the size, I think of the boat was what he was using the, you know, the basketball court reference or those smells on the wheel ship, on the whale ship, those smells. I think it's immersive. It brings me in. It helps me visualize the story. And by the way, even if you're not doing a narrative podcast, I think thinking along these lines, when you are doing especially an audio first podcast, this is the thing that I was on my high horse about last week, is that when you're doing a podcast, if it's audio first, but you do have a video component, I don't believe you have to make two separate shows. I think that if you can do a really good job describing the visuals, it works well.

28:40 In fact, it works really well in my opinion, and I think that this is a great example of that. So anybody have any thoughts? Anyone want to comment on this? Did that make this feel easier to grab onto for you? Or maybe to some people, maybe they feel like maybe that's kind of pandering to them, that they know what Nantucket is. Either they can visualize the size of of the boat or this maybe the smells are annoying them, Who knows. But I think for me, and I think a lot of people would appreciate that. Dr. What are your thoughts? I was, pardon the pun, I was so on board with him. I loved the analogy that he made with the, you know, Saudi Arabia thing, The fact that it was Nantucket and it was coming from a person with, you know, this heavy Irish brogue. It was just so.

29:30 I loved it so much. It really surprised me. Very cool. Before we go any further, Ralph, I wanted to pause here because I know you found us a special guest for Friday and I quickly wanted to tease that in case somebody listening may be interested. I did. Thank you, Mark. Yeah. Joining us on the show tomorrow is Sam Sethi. He is the owner, the president of True Fans, I guess is what it's called, and that is a podcasting platform where you can. It's a podcasting app. What? Only fans only. Fans. No. True fans. Let's be very careful about that.

30:10 True fans. Only true fans. And he is also the Co host with James Credlin on Fridays of the podcast Weekly Review. But he's going to join us tomorrow. I reached out to him and he said he would love to be on the show. He's going to tell us about how his company's doing things a little bit differently when it relates to hosting for podcasters. He's actually embracing the HLS technology, and we're going to get into it with him and why he's doing that, how it's working, and exactly the point of that. So make sure you join us on tomorrow's show again, Sam Sethi. Thank you, Ralph. OK, I saw. Let's see. Matt, wanted to chime in and again, just to refresh, we're talking about the descriptiveness of this podcast and how well the host is sharing and describing the different elements of the story. Matt, what did you want to add?

31:02 I think it's just really important to point out here again, and I take this opportunity just because it's a very unusual phenomenon that doesn't get talked about in podcasting. But there are some people that have a phenomenon called aphantasia, which prevents them from visualizing something in their mind from a description. For example, if I said imagine in your mind a shiny red apple sitting on a table. It looks delicious. There's a glistening morning dew just running along the edges. The light reflects from the some people are listening to that and going, give me the information, Matt. I don't, you've told me there's an apple. That's all I need. That's the kind of FN Tasik kind of perception sometimes. So I think before all of you run off when you thought that the description was too much, wondering if you know, you might be a hip hop Med and find out if you've got aphantasia or not. I think that just needs to be recognized sometimes that for some people, the theater of the mind from descriptive audio just it doesn't match up to what they, you know, experience. Whereas some of us can experience what, you know, visualize a ship the size of a basketball court being compared to a whale of a similar size or bigger that that creates the scene for us, or the ocean waves lapping against a boat in the middle of the ocean in complete isolation. That works for some people. the IT just doesn't work for others for many reasons.

32:32 But aphantasia, I like to bring it up sometimes. I thought this was a good opportunity. Yeah, thank you. And thank you for the for living up to your reputation with all the big words. And I know Ralph is chomping at the bit over here behind the scenes because Ralph has got a Jingle ready for Matt and his big words that he likes to use. But I don't have it queued up yet. And I wanted to try to try to distribute these new jingles effectively. I didn't want to just throw them all out in one week. I want to really make them make it. What's the word I'm looking for? And I want them to simmer a little bit. So that's why I didn't have that queued up. By the way, Jessica was agreeing with some of us earlier here, she says.

33:13 I agree, and sometimes it depends on what you're hungry to consume. There was one other thing she said. Ah, yes. His flow reminds me of the lull of waves. His voice is the melody. I love that Ralph, doing the little. What is that a hula dance you're doing over there, Ralph? Well, yeah, it's the waves, man. He she is absolutely right. Because it's almost put you in a trance. I was just listening to this and I'm just going. I could take a nap now. Not that it was content, wasn't good, don't misunderstand me. But it was one of those things where I am just in this. And that's why again, I said I need to take advice from this guy. I shouldn't be giving him advice. Yeah. And by the way, we've got some people here on YouTube.

33:55 Thank you for watching on YouTube as well. And Jr. Junior, I always get them. I always intertwine Jr. or Junior. But he was mentioning the dramatic sound, dramatic with the sound effects to draw you in. He says he puts you in a trance with his description. Also agreeing. And also thank you for giving us a little bit of kudos, Jr. for the video presentation of this show. Appreciate you watching and the fact that you're enjoying it. Thank you for calling that out. OK. And Mark, can I, yeah, go ahead just for a second. Just really quickly, I, I think this was the part of the episode that it kind of lends to what Matt was saying before, because I think the description, the well blubber and stuff like that, that was the first time in the episode I thought, I wonder if he's done this before, Right?

34:45 Right. Without actually saying because I hadn't looked into the bio or anything, something like that. And so I think people who are experts are able to give you the perspective and the setting without overwhelming you with it, right? Like he started talking like nautical miles and I was like, yeah, you're about to lose me, bro. But if the way he described it and he did that example later on them. So I don't want to give it away in case you bring it up, but that description of the basketball court, stuff like that, as a person who has never gone out on a boat like that, it really gave me an idea like, oh, OK, that makes sense. So no, I appreciated that part. Yeah, thank you, Dominic. And Matt, you wanted to add on to that breaking?

35:27 News. I've been doing a little bit of research in the background after someone, I can't remember, it might have been you, Mark said. Maybe he's done this before. Yeah. So I did a bit of research a little bit and I've discovered that he has been on several podcast appearances in the past and I can attribute potentially two other maritime related podcasts to his name. The first being a being Maritime Careers International, which seems to have an Instagram account but no correlating podcast may have been removed. Similarly, 20 minutes see Stories, which is structured very similarly, has two episodes, and the second episode is about Tom Crean, which also is the second episode of Salvage the Subject Matter.

36:15 So it's entirely possible we're dealing with a practiced expert who just hasn't left his work on the table. In any case, still speaks to his experience and his ability that he can create episodes like this. Agreed. Yeah, absolutely. OK, I want to keep things going. Thank you again for your investigative work. Appreciate that, Matt, I want to dig into, let's see which, where are we here? Let's go to clip three. Yes, clip 3. Let's hear the whale attack and the sinking sequence. And as you listen, notice the different things like the pacing, which I've seen some comments about the pacing here in the chat. So we'll talk about that, the narration, the emotional intensity, and whether you feel like the production is doing enough or whether there may be room for even more impact. Let's listen.

37:12 And then he saw it. An enormous sperm wheel, almost exactly the same size of the ship, so not far off the length of a basketball court. An absolutely huge creature. It was heading slowly towards them. She has watched it approach. Something wasn't right. He ordered the helmsman of the Essex to turn away, but it was too late. The wheel struck the ship full on. The impact threw men off their feet and the ship shuddered. They'd heard of whales striking ships. It did happen, but not like this. Chius was convinced that what this wheel had done, it did it on purpose.

38:00 All right, so let's talk about this. What did you notice in this particular sequence? What thoughts do you have? Sid, go for it. Yeah, I really enjoyed this episode so much. So I started listening to the second one because I love history, right? So I just was enthralled with this. And he did a really, really good job. But to the enhanced sound design, like I think it would have really made an impact if we had heard the sound of a whale crashing into a wooden hull of a boat, right? It would have just, it's kind of like just the impact of that, if you will, that sometimes when you're when there's something happening and and there's a pause, you hear a shotgun go off or something like that, it would have been a bit more dramatic. I do appreciate the references back to how big the whale was again, the size of the basketball court. But Ralph and I are agreeing, I think he was just a little bit too slow and he could have increased his pace just a little bit and not and it did.

38:58 It wasn't like it I was going to stop listening because he was talking slow, but I think it could have benefited from a little bit more of a increase in the speed of how he's talking. And then if he's worried about the length of the show, adding in some of the pause, intentional pauses and the sounds like we just talked about would have had added a lot of drama to to this, much more drama to this. OK, yeah, I'm with you there, Sid. I found, like found that same thing when I was listening. I wanted there to be some more sound design, some more sound effects. Yeah. And that's a great example. Like when he says that that whale struck, I want to hear it. I want to hear something that just emphasizes that point and feel that in my body when it happens as opposed to just visualizing it.

39:46 So whatever that thought is, you know, just a boom. I think that would really capture attention a little bit of a more of a pattern disrupt and more of an immersive experience at that point. And by the way, the pacing thing, I saw it, maybe it was Matt put it in the chat here. Did you try listening Sid at 1 1/2 times the speed? Do you think that would have helped? I did not, but it didn't bother me enough to even think about doing that right. But as I was listening, I was just like, maybe you could increase the pace of the story just a little bit, but I wasn't bothered enough to go change how I consume podcasts. OK, fair enough. Yeah. And Ralph, you wanted to chime in? Yeah, I just wanted to sort of go alongside of what Sid was saying at this part.

40:31 I'm glad you picked this clip because this is a part where I thought he has a great voice that he could have made more dramatic. And at this very stage is when I start to think he's reading a script, and I'm cool with that. But this is a part that I think if he had done it better. And like I said, I thought this dude did a great job. So don't miss, don't mishear what I'm saying. But this is a part where he could have built it up more and he could have gotten more excited and he could have had a quicker pace. And we could have pictured this whale coming towards the boat and all of a sudden it struck. And I just think that would have been more dramatic and it would have gone along with what he was already doing. Because there were times when I thought like, yeah, this guy's reading a script because I noticed the tail offs at the end of his words sometimes. Now, maybe that's an accent thing, but I picked it up a lot that it felt like because when I first started podcasting, I was doing the same thing before.

41:19 I worked with a speaking coach and she told me don't end up here, you know, and like you normally talk and that's what I felt a little bit throughout his presentation. I definitely think that part of that is the accent, because the accent does usually carry a bit of an uptick. We were talking about that before the show. So I think that has something to do with it. Also, you know, I maybe it was just an assumption for me, one that I wasn't even conscious of. I don't think I really paid attention to the fact that he was reading because I think I maybe was just assuming he must have been reading. Like, I don't think somebody could tell that story off the top of their head. And the last thing I wanted to say is it could have been a styling choice like this host.

42:04 You know, there are hosts that intentionally keep the same tone, the same pacing the whole way through. It's their brand. It's just the way that they want to deliver it. And then the audiences gravitate to that. They just expect that. And I'm not saying your advice is wrong Ralph because I do. I can feel a difference if he was doing more of a build up, but I also appreciate his style for what it is. I think that's very fair, Mark, and I think you're right. He made a stylistic choice, and I'm totally in agreement with you on that. Yeah, OK. And Dominic, you wanted to chime in, Go ahead. No, I think that may be the case because I I also kind of delved into the other episode well, and even the music to the other episode that he has as well. And even the Music Choice, the music sound bad that he has for this episode is also in the other episode as well. So I wonder if there's a level of consistency he's trying to keep with the show overall.

43:06 And that would make sense to me, not just not just the music bed, but also in the way he delivers the lines. Got it. OK. Matt, did you want to add something? Yeah, I think like Ralph's on to something there and I'm sure whatever Dominic said is also plausible. Unfortunately, those of us on Riverside also misspeak a little bit because of Mark's Internet I presume. But I think that's where building the voice for where things and the persona going forward is important. Like he might be playing around with a couple of things. And I think what he is leaning into at the moment is, you know, come along with me as I tell you a story and it's the story that's at the forefront. So perhaps a dramatic speed up for the moment the whale hit the ship and then and then this happened and then this happened and then always calm.

43:59 That might be just a bit too, too much, but there might be something perfect for Richard's voice and for the cadence that doesn't break the flow. But still, you know, stresses out as you listen. The fact that he has speed up and you don't even realize he's speed up yet. There's like a there's a balance there, but I think this is the operant moment for him to pick who he is. Is it the story that's playing the major part? Like Tide pointed out earlier, the selection of language is important to establish that and what you keep and what you remove. And also how he as the storyteller establishes his persona as part of the podcast. And whether we're there with him or he's just telling us a story and we're there for the story. There's stylistic choices to make there that I think talk to all the things we're kind of mentioning at the moment. Thank you, Matt.

44:50 Sid, did you want to chime into? Yeah, I have a question about this. So there's several points of the episode where he's telling the story from the viewpoint of the character. He's talking as if I'm the character. The captain says this and so and so says that, right? And as I was listening to this, I thought a lot about Dominic and his shows, and Dominic does a great job at bringing in the voices of the character themselves. Now he's got recordings and things that he can pull and you can hear the characters voice. If he wanted to, could he do something like that with this show where the captain's actually talking, realizing the audio recording may not be available, but he could indeed make that person's voice or mimic that person's voice using AI, right? And I think if he did something like that, it would add to the show as well.

45:39 I realized it's more work to do, but I also think it's going to have more impact. Ralph, what's the big smile for? No, I think Matt is going to lose his stack on that one as we were talking about AI. So I don't. I don't want to speak for Matt, but I saw Matt make a very strong gesture when the word AI was invoked. Ah. Hang on, hang on, let's not talk about gestures here. I rapidly shook my head. There was nothing untoward flying around from digits here. I just rapidly shook my head because I thought a like in a couple of years we might get there and voice over in Fire AI is definitely improving. But I think these are stories, right? And often, sometimes they do, but not often Do you see a fully cast audio book where all of the characters come in. Harry Potter I think has all of the original actors in for the books when they do the audio books. So I think for him perhaps putting on the voices himself or having a small team of volunteers or people that he pays to enact those voices, a male and a female would be enough probably to do that.

46:43 I think would mate. What you don't want to do is pull the listener out of his the trance. As you guys said, I think AI voices may do that. But that is a very That is an opinion from me on that one, a vigorous. Action apps, I actually agree with this in that regard because in this goes in line with what I was saying as far as his accent goes. Like I think the accent is part of the trance and like, even if it's not AI and you got voice actors and like, you would still have a hard time trying to find somebody to not be anachronistic with the voices that would be different from the host, right?

47:26 Because even though there were American sailors a part of this mission or whatever, even the way we speak now, English today in 2026 is different than they spoke English in 1820, right? So like even then you will find it difficult. And I think I want to stay in the trance for the full 35 minutes to really enjoy the story. So I definitely get what Sid is saying, and I and AI choices have definitely improved, but I don't know if they've improved to the point where I would implement it in this particular episode, if that makes any sense. That makes a lot of sense. Yes, thank you, Dominic and Sid appreciate that and Matt for that matter, thank you as well.

48:08 I want to go to this next clip because I also want to make sure we leave a little bit of time for some feedback about the branding, the website, etcetera. I have plenty of notes here. I know Dr. does I know that Ralph wanted to chime in on that as well. So this this next clip, this next moment here, let me make sure I have the right one queued up. I don't want to hit the wrong button this morning. This one is I think, to what we were talking about with Sid earlier and Tide earlier. This is where a moment where and it happens a couple of times where the host is telling the story, but then sort of pauses and talks to us, the listener. And I'm curious how people feel about that. So let's play it.

48:56 Waking up, even if they did get some sleep, to the same horizon, the same relentless ocean, not knowing what the next day would bring or the week after that, the water they had on board, the food, the hope, all of it started running out. But they kept going. The weeks that followed were slow and merciless. And don't worry, things are going to happen soon. The sun burned them raw every day. They'd know shelter. They're scared. So there it was, if you paid attention there he stops and says don't worry, something's about to happen. I'm paraphrasing but I think you get the gist here. And he does stuff like that a few times, not often, but a few times where I noticed.

49:44 And I'm wondering if it was necessary because let's be real, here are the the podcast episode feels a lot like an audio book, which is a good thing. That's not a knock on the presentation. And if we think about audio books, the narrator is not pulling, in most cases, pulling us out of the story to let us know that you know, something's coming. So I'm wondering, did that work for you guys or not? Matt, you raised your hand, so let me go to you first. Just a bit of commentary as well. Someone posted on LinkedIn recently, Keelan Peterson, who does mentally a magpie, she reviews podcasts a lot. She actually asked what the difference between a podcast and an audio book is for people.

50:29 And the thing I commented is that an audio book is reading a story as written, whereas a podcast is intended to be a spoken word. Now, here the differentiator for what you're referring to there could be whether we are speaking a story or whether we are speaking in front of an audience. And to me, like, I didn't even pick that up when you played the clip. I didn't even notice it, to be fair. Yeah, But there might be a bias there for podcasting. Be curious to hear what everyone else thinks. Let's go to Sid. I know he wanted to chime in on this. Go ahead, Sid. Yeah, I heard him do this three or four times. And the one that sticks out to me the most of where he did it was when he talks about the island that they discovered and they passed another island or something.

51:15 And he said, oh, there's a story about that as well. And I forget exactly what he said, but I think the phrasing that you and Ty both used is he pulled me out of the story by the commentary of something that wasn't part of the story. If you want to do another episode about that island and what all happened on that other island, then do another episode about that. Don't pull me out of the story that I'm in to tell me there's another story about the island. OK, OK, that's fair. Dominic, as an award-winning narrative podcaster, I'm curious your thoughts about this. Was this Is this a move that you do on your podcasts and would you recommend it? I did notice it.

51:56 I have done it. Think there's a way to do it a bit more subtly or even just like, you know, because he did even say the phrase that's a story for another day. I may do something in that regard. I won't go on a whole like mini history of the other because I think the word pit Karen came up. I can't remember if it was the island, separate island or something like that. But yeah, I I saw it as like somebody breaking the 4th wall, which I am always a fan of in both TV film and podcasting. But that part probably went on a little longer than those because Sid's right, he did do it like 3 or 4 times and I was like, OK, maybe didn't have to do that much to it. I do short, short answer, I like the practice. He probably did it a little bit too long, if that makes any sense.

52:49 OK, yeah, I like that. And yeah, things like that's a story for another day. That works really well for me personally, I think because, you know, it's like, oh, OK, there's this is leading me into something else that he may be telling me later down the road. Yeah, yeah, OK, cool. I like that. Dr. I'm going to ask you to hold their thought because I do want to keep going here because there's one more clip I want to play. It's the ending and I want it because I think there's some things to talk about with how he wraps up and then goes into his call to action. And I do want to do the branding stuff. So I'm going to ask the team if you have a few extra minutes. Let's stick around. This will be a little bit longer of an episode, but I think it's important that we get to these last couple of points.

53:33 This last clip, like I said, is the conclusion. It's also the longest clip that I'm going to play today. It's the last clip I'm going to play today. But I think it's really important that we stick with it. So let's play it and then we'll talk about it on the other side. Well, there you have it. What a story. And it's really hard to believe that it's true. If there was ever a moment and a place to to test a human being and to see what they're made of, it would be a small wooden boat in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. No food, no water, no hope of rescue.

54:19 Of course, we now know the phrase Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, PTSD, possibly what these men carried home with them very understandably. But back then there was no such word or phrase. There was no help, there was no understanding. They just had to live with it every single day in silence. And of course, the judgment that went with it, the judgment of the decisions they made, and yet they survived. So the question that I think raises in my mind by this story is what would I do in that situation if I was one of those men?

55:09 So what do you think you would have done if you were one of those men? It's possibly really difficult to say. Just before we finish, a couple of quick things. One random fact is that this story was the inspiration for the Moby Dick story by Herman Melville. He had heard it from a survivor at sea. So please get in touch via the details in the show notes wherever you're listening. I'd love to hear some feedback. I'd love to hear if how this podcast is landing if you're enjoying it. And you'll also find details there too in the show notes of further reading on the ESIC story. If you want to read more, this has been Salvage.

55:54 And until next time, goodbye all. Right. So DRI, think you wanted to chime in first, How did that full closing sequence land for you? Well, I was trying to figure out the way to verbalize it, and I think Sid did a good job with his. He took me out of the story a little too soon. It was like premature. It was just too soon. It was jarring the way that we got to that CTA, you know, contact me if you have any feedback, that sort of thing. I think there there could have been like maybe a whoosh or some kind of trigger sound to say, OK, now we're done. And now here are some notes.

56:42 This is based on a. But, you know, something like that. But yeah, and also, I want to get this in before we're done. I think that this kind of podcast would lend itself very well if it had a trailer. I think a trailer would really would really be impactful, taking a few clips from both of these episodes, maybe a third episode if he's got that in the can, and building a trailer around this. That's what I'm thinking. Yeah. OK. So yeah, if you go and look on say Apple or Spotify, he has a couple of episodes. But yeah, I didn't see a trailer either. And I yeah, I think that would be that would lend itself well. And I'll say this, you know, I always believe a trailer will do will be an additional plus for a podcast. But I'll say, if his podcast episodes always start with that first minute intro, as this one was that we played, I think it's just fine.

57:40 Like if some if a listener's coming in for the first time and just sees the two episodes press play on one of the two, they're most likely going to get a very good feel for what the episode is about, in my opinion. But yeah, I'm with you. I think a trailer only supports and helps what he's doing. Let's see here. Anyone else? Any thoughts? Did anyone else feel the same way as far as that transition from ending the story? Like I liked the wrap up. I like I always like how in a movie too, for example, you'll see it, watch a movie and then at the end sometimes they'll give you some some text on the screen that says what happens to the characters now, you know, moving forward. I like that kind of stuff.

58:23 I think that works well and I like how he tied it back to today with PTSD references and then how he even asked us a question to think about, you know, almost like a take away segment, if you will. I agree that there might have it. It did feel a little bit jarring when he then it's went to his CTA asking us to connect with him. I agree also Dr. Maybe it's a whoosh. Maybe it's an ocean sound transition or something to just to kind of cleanse the palate, but I think it should be quick. Something something in line, like an ocean sound or one of those fog horns or something, you know? Yeah, I think it should be something relatively quick because look, when we wrap up a story, the audience should feel like the story's wrapping up.

59:12 And the problem with that is if it's wrapped up to them, they may just want to hit stop on the episode and then they'll miss the whole CTA. So I think you have to be careful with how you do that transition. But I do think maybe even a long pause, a longer pause might be all that's needed there. A longer pause. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And also we did some digging and we found out that he he doesn't have a website for his podcast and I would encourage him to check out pod page for this. Yes, we will include a pod page link in the show notes. I think that's a great suggestion. Yeah. He only seems to have maybe a Buzz Sprout page.

59:53 But yeah, and let's talk about that just for a quick. Well, actually I'm going to pin on that for a second and that because I thought saw Dominic wanted to chime in about the whole transition from ending the story and going into the CTA. Go ahead, Dominic. Just really quickly, I think usually what I try to do is, you know, as I as I'm ending the story, I'm letting the music, I'll bump up the music just a little bit, you know, and then let it fade out, right. And so that's usually like a nice palate cleanser. It typically in the narrative, especially given his pacing, you you don't want something jarring like a foghorn or something like that, artistically speaking, of course, only because like that kind of go, it's kind of contradictory to the format that he's kind of created a little bit.

1:00:42 So I do agree with the you know the transition, but you may want to something a little bit softer than you know what's been suggested. OK. Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you, Dominic. Matt, did you want to chime in? Yeah, just a very quick bit of advice that I heard from working a bit with Mason Amadeus on Digital Folklore, another podcast. When you're building a story when there was scripting X, it's an entirely audio, experienced narrative experience that intersperses interviews. But as you write it, thinking about where anyone is in the scene, he said, was the best way to script it, to make it as engaging as possible. I think the similar, similar approach could be good here because it places the story and him as a character or a narrator in the story as the primary thing that guides what happens next. So we could say, you know how to transition sound there, bit of music, whoosh, waves, whatever.

1:01:35 That's the tactical version. But I think for him figuring out who he is in this story, where the story sits, and then thinking about the scene, like, is he in an armchair? Is he closing a book when he finishes the story and how does that come out in the audio? When we have our Imaginarium, I think that might be a really good way to approach it. Yeah. Thank you, Matt. Appreciate that. I'm not going to expand on it just for sake of time, but thank you for that. I think those are good points. And let's just quickly go back to the reference of no website and that call to action at the end. I personally, as the listener found it really hard to take action.

1:02:17 He asked for feedback, right? Well, we're giving him the feedback here today. So he's getting it, but in the more traditional sense. I had no idea how I could contact him. There was no real way. I went into the Apple page to see if there were links to a website or to see if there was an e-mail address. I went to Spotify looking for the same thing. I went on Google searching for a website. I could not find anything. As a matter of fact, I had a hard time just even finding his RSS feed somewhere. So I think that this is, you know, and I've seen that he's also gone on other platforms asking people for feedback, like on Reddit and what and what have you. I think if he really wants this feedback, he's got to make it very easy for the audience to connect with him.

1:03:03 Give them the specific way. If you're going to do that at the end of your show, tell them exactly how. e-mail me, give the e-mail address. And to D Rs point, I think we need to create for this podcast a home base. And I think that starts with a podcast. I'm sorry, starts with a website. There was I also couldn't find any social media presence. And I'm not encouraging him to start with social media presence as your home base. But I think having some other ways that your audience can find you is going to increase your odds of getting the feedback that you're looking for. And I'll go say this one last thing. Be specific about what kind of feedback that you want. Don't just ask for feedback because it's going to be harder for people to know what, what to say.

1:03:49 Be very specific. You know, did something I shared with you today about this story really stick with you? Or was there something about this podcast that I, that I spoke about or I did that didn't sit well with you? But just ask for something specific. Specific, yeah. I also wanted to mention that through our research, it looks like he's missing on some of the platforms like True Fans Podcast Index, Evox, iheart. So it would help his discovery if he was on those platforms. Yeah, fair enough. I didn't. I can't verify whether that's the case or not, but yeah, go ahead, Dominic. Just to be fair, I think the fact that he it appears to be a new podcast, it does take a few months or weeks to kind of get on some of those platforms.

1:04:40 Like I know for sure, like when you upload your first show, it takes a few weeks before you can get on iheart, right? Like I know that through Lipson, right? Like I think it takes like 6 weeks. You have to like have beyond the RSS feed. So sometimes they may just be it's a brand new show. The website thing I agree with or whatever as far as like you could do that, but some of these things they may just take time. I agree wholeheartedly. Thank you, Dominic, and thank you to all of you for not just breaking this episode down but also staying a little later today so that we could do this justice. This is overall, I think if I had to guess, nobody gave their actual five star rating, but I would say this show probably gets at least Yeah, several people are holding up a five out of five.

1:05:24 Matt says 6. I was. Going to I gave it in the chat. Oh, what did you say, Dominic? I said five star review a game right after I listened to the show and I said fantastic show awards downloading. Right on, Right on. Yeah, I was going to say at least a 4 1/2 out of five, but it sounds more now like a 5 out of five from the majority of our team. Sid, did you want a final word on this? Excuse me, we just had a question because we didn't get to the branding and stuff and all of that. Going to give him any feedback about that because I do believe there's some things here. I do think there are some things that he could do that could increase his discovery and his reach by cover art, you know, maybe even a name change and things and thinking about SEO keywords and stuff like that.

1:06:10 Are you going to give him or do you are going to give him any specific feedback about that? Yeah, we can do that behind the scenes. Yeah, I think we've run out of time to do it today, but yes, we can definitely do more of that for him or maybe even talk about it on another episode. So, yeah, thank you for calling that out, Sid. And again, thank you to all of you for participating today. We're back tomorrow with our special guest and we would love for you to be there. Also bring your wins tomorrow as well. We're going to celebrate our wins after we have that interview. So until tomorrow, make it a great day. Everybody. Take care.