484. What 'Twenty Thousand Hertz' Teaches About Podcast Sound Design

0:05 Good morning podcasting morning chat. Today is Monday, March 30th, 2026 and today is our Obsession Worthy podcast show. Jonathan Howard is going to present Hamilton by 20,000 Hertz. We're going to discuss why it's obsession worthy and well, we can learn from it as podcasters. So if you listen to live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, bottom left hand side of the screen and share whatever Clubhouse lets you. If you want to join us live on video, you can go to podcastingmorningchat.com/join us and for catching us via podcast, YouTube, LinkedIn, etcetera, and show this episode with a fellow podcaster. Now give me about 30 seconds and we'll get things going. Thanks for being here today.

0:52 The Podcasting Morning Chat is powered by Ironic Media, helping podcasters launch, Polish and grow great shows, and by Content Creators Accountant, helping creators build real business behind their content. Well, good morning again podcasting morning chat. Thank you so much for being here. I am your fill in host for today, Ralph Estep Junior. I'm filling in for Mark. Mark had a really long travel day yesterday, so I'm here helping host the show with Jonathan today and currently on stage for me. This morning we have Alex Baelish, Dr. Faye, Jonathan Howard, BC Babbel, Tide tutoring, Nick Naubach and Dominic Lawson.

1:46 Thank you for joining us today on this show, Dominic. So thanks for being here everyone. And Jonathan, I am going to hand over the leadership to you. Jonathan's going to walk us through this obsession worthy podcast today. Yeah. So we are looking at 20,000 Hertz and we're looking at one of their episodes on Hamilton. So you guys know Hamilton. So we're going to kind of dive into it and go through some things that you may not have noticed. But first, just so you guys know, we do these obsession worthy podcasts to learn. It's really a learning experience so we can figure out what these podcasts that are doing so well, what we can learn from them, what they're doing really well, and how we can actually use that for our own podcast so that we can have better podcasts. So yeah, why don't we just jump right in?

2:29 I'm going to kind of go through what the concept of 20,000 Hertz is, but if anybody has any questions, you know, you guys just yell at me or yell while we're or get Ralph's attention. We'll we'll figure it out. So on the surface, the show's about sound design, but really it's about invisible influence. And you'll notice that a lot with this particular episode. It's about how the things you barely notice are actually guiding your attention, shaping the emotions and creating the meaning that you are getting from, you know, a lot of different things. Sound is just the entry point. So it's building, building really that trust with us, but that sound is the entry point. So what's happening behind the scenes that's controlling your experience is really what it's all about. And the show keeps proving one thing. Nothing is accidental.

3:17 So that's what we're really going to look at. The things you don't notice are often the things that are influencing you the most, and that's the DNA of 20,000 Hertz. So let's jump in. So the show isn't, it's not really about sound, it's about awareness. But once you see it, you cannot see it. We're going to really dive into how Hamilton sounds, but we're also going to look at how the sound is actually telling a story, because the sound in this musical is telling the story of the musical. So let's hit that first clip to get us started. We're listening to 20,000 Hertz. Even if you haven't seen Broadway's 11 Tony winning box office record-breaking smash hit Hamilton, odds are you've heard of it. It's well known for the price and rarity of its tickets. Tickets for the universally.

4:06 Acclaimed musical Hamilton are constantly selling out almost $900 a pop. Lin Manuel Miranda is here with us. I have to say, it's weird to see you in a theater without having to pay $10,000. I went and saw it and then two hours later I'm going. Why am I crying over Alexandra Hamilton in? Fact. Hamilton, I'm pretty sure, is the only thing that Dick Cheney and I agree on. So this clip is really just doing the setup for us. It was establishing that Hamilton was truly iconic. It establishes the cultural weight, and it reinforces hopefully some of your familiarity with it. And what it's doing is it's using Hamilton's existing reputation as a shortcut to build trust. And then it's going to pivot into the real story, which is the sound design, which we're going to kind of jump into.

4:50 But what this does is it opens up the curiosity gap, you know Hamilton, but do you know what how the sound really develops and makes Hamilton Hamilton? And that's where this episode kind of goes from being a fan of Hamilton to actually showing the craft. And this clip is what I often called a doorway clip. And it uses the what we already know to get the attention quickly, build the trust, but then bring them into the hidden layer of the podcast. So the clip is going to really it really anchors the episode. It's something that's iconic this, but we're going to see the real story that's behind it. Now. I don't know if anybody has again, I can't see. So if anybody has anything they want to add, I'll jump. We can hit that. I'll. Jump in here, Jonathan. I had never seen Hamilton.

5:31 I'd heard of Hamilton. So this one for me was a little bit complicated to get into, if I'm being very honest with you. So it made me do a little research. But overall the production I thought was excellent. It didn't overwhelm me with a ton of advertisements, which was great. It looks like this particular show though is something you have to pay for generally. Or I guess I misunderstood a little bit on one of the things I saw there was some sort of Patreon, or not a Patreon, but some way of a gate for getting in to pay for it or something along those lines. Yeah, they do have additional content that goes that's in Patreon for, you know, as a lot of people do to monetize their podcast. They're doing it, they're themselves. So they do have some stuff there for Patreon.

6:11 But yeah, I think I'm pretty sure this episode was available for everybody to. Correct. It was like I said, I just when I first launched it, when I went to our and by the way, I just want to throw this out there. If anybody wants to check out any of our Obsession Worthy podcast, you can go to podcastingmorningchat.com/owp. And that's what I had done. And when I clicked on that link, it took me to a place where it was not sure on the episode. So that's where I was asking that question, Jonathan. But OK, does anybody else want to comment before we move on to the second clip? I'll chime in if I could. This is Dominic Lawson here. Good morning. Good morning, Dominic. Dominic, thank you so much for joining us. Absolutely no, No, just to kind of reinforce what Jonathan was saying, you know, when it comes to sound design, he talked about intentionality.

6:54 But I think it also helps reinforce authenticity when it comes to reinforcing what Hamilton is trying to, you know, prove what he's trying to show. And one of the things I think of personally, I think I love about this episode is that and what Hamilton does is that it reinforces hip hop as high art, if you will. And so, you know, again, when it comes to that intentionality and authenticity and what Will in Manuel Miranda was trying to convey, I think he does a really good job. So really looking forward to get into this episode a little bit. All right, yeah. And this second clip is is kind of where it goes a little bit deeper. It's this isn't just about it sounding good. It was engineered to make you feel this way. So it's beyond a great performance. It's really a designed emotional experience. And that's what we're going to hear about in that second clip. When Hamilton was beginning its development, Tommy would occasionally just drop me an e-mail or a phone call with information and kind of a little backstage look at what Lynn was working on and what the plans were for this piece. I knew it was going to be something interesting and exciting to work on, not to mention a lot of fun. Nevin started his journey with Hamilton, where every member of the creative team began with the script. I'm giving the text and then after I've read it, the first conversation with the director happens, and that's the beginning of the sound design for a show. The director and I and representatives from the music department, including the composer or the orchestrator, music supervision.

8:26 We talk about architecture and we talk about what it looks like and how it moves. And then we talk about the venue. Is it a 200 seed venue? Is it a 2000 seed venue? And we'd start to put ourselves in the position of an audience encountering this story and start to think about how sound can help communicate it. And that process can go on for years. When it does, usually the sound design turns out better. That's exactly what happened with Hamilton. Yeah. So sound design starts at the script level and goes on for years, which is what happened with Hamilton. So we learned that it's it begins with the text in the story. It evolves with the direction and movement and obviously adapts to the space, the pacing and the people that are actually performing it. So I thought that was truly interesting, but it reminded me, are we treating production on our own podcast as Polish or are we planning out our production?

9:23 And is everything that we're putting into it a part of the strategy? So that's my question for you guys. And Jonathan, I thought that was a brilliant observation because I was trying to decide where you were going to go with this today. And I said when I got to give everybody a little sneak peek, Jonathan shared the slide with me ahead of today's show. So I had a chance to peek at those. And yeah, Jonathan, that nails it because, again, it goes back to one of the things I talk about a lot, and that's intentionality. What is your intention in this? But I don't want to hog the mic here. Does anybody else want to comment in what Jonathan just talked about? I know Nick made a comment in the chat. Nick, did you want to comment? I just said that I'm about due to rewatch Hamilton, especially after listening to this, but I I didn't find it really interesting and fascinating that to the extent of that intentionality that they were talking about with Hamilton.

10:12 How like even just the smallest little details that you might completely miss watching the play or the show. It was so curated and done with such intentionality. Like, it just kind of blew my mind. And as they were talking about that, I was starting to kind of pull myself out and look at the actual episode itself. Because I'm, as I'm listening to them, I'm thinking, OK, if they're talking about how intentional is, how intentional are they being with the actual episode that we're listening to and talking about here today, Just kind of a fascinating. Look at all of it, yeah. Absolutely. I don't know, Was Nick the only one? I need to really have my phone here. I need to do this but. Anyone else want to comment? I think Sid and then then me. Oh, go ahead, Sid.

10:53 Good morning, everybody. Hey, Dominic. It's great to see here, buddy. More in the morning and I'll go after Alex, by the way. Go ahead, Sid. So I have not seen Hamilton at all. I have not listened to the show before listening to this episode, but I was fascinated by what he learned in this episode and the things that they shared later. I assume you're sharing the clip later about the music composure or the, yeah, the music composing? Jonathan, I was just blown away and like the things I could learn from this. This is a really, really good episode and it does make you think. You asked the question about being intentional relative to your show. I'm a lot more intentional with the structure of my show, the prep for my show, and like now with our sponsors, where advertisers go and things of that nature. So, yeah, I do believe I'm a lot more intentional today than I was a couple of years ago, but it's a learning process. Later this year, we'll reflect on Season 7 and see what we can do better to improve for Season 8. So it's a great question.

11:43 Though, Thank you, Sid. Go ahead. And Alex, you're up next. First off, This is why podcasting is great. I was lucky enough to win the $10 tickets so I've seen Hamilton on Broadway and love the show. They also did a PBS documentary which has a lot of this stuff in it, but it still doesn't take away from the episode. This episode really shows why Broadway slash how would literally have the sausages made? And that's what makes it so amazing. I've watched all the documentaries. We listen to the soundtrack all the time and you still, it's like a warm blanket. And every time you learn a little bit more about a Broadway show. And I know there's a lot of people in this room never seen a Broadway show.

12:29 And if you ever get the chance, there's nothing like it. I know you're going to go to a theater in your local place, but there's nothing like Broadway. And I know I'm being a total snob when I say that, but what's really neat is the detail. And I know Nick said that, the detail that goes into everything. And like, I learned a couple things, which I know Jonathan's going to probably talk about clips because I don't know what clips he's going to do, but everything even down to the orchestra having a separate soundtrack, which is amazing. And I'm just eating it all up. So, you know, for those of you that have, I didn't know about this podcast, but I was looking at the different lists and I'm gonna definitely check out the different episodes because sound is important and creating the moment and the scene has so much to do with the way you feel. And I'm so glad that Dominic is here because that's his, this is what he does.

13:25 And it's always good to see Dominic anyway, so. Well, thank you, Alex. Let's go ahead and go to Dominic right now. Good morning, Alex. The feeling is mutual, Sir, for sure. No. First of all, we got to address the elephant. In a room of so many people who haven't seen Hamilton. We got to fix I. Agree. What is it with that? We got to fix that. But no, when you go to a Broadway show and I had the privilege of going to see, I'm blanking on the name of the show that I went to go see, but it had Audra McDonald kind of leading. It was fantastic over the past summer. And I agree with Alex, it's just a different experience when you go and to a show on Broadway. But when it comes to this particular clip, you know, the thing that really got me was the talking about the size of the theater when you're adjusting on the fly, because that's one of the things I think about what I think about my show Black as America, and I think about mental health rewritten. Are you listening in the car?

14:18 Are you listening on the treadmill? Are you listening, you know, with earphones or no earphones? Are you know, what are you doing when you're doing that? But so because I'm intentional about, I may not want to have certain things happening in the show from a sound design standpoint in the particular show, but also again, the authenticity of it. So if you know, if I'm telling a World War two-story, right, yeah, I could just go and get some type of rifle sound. But I want a particular M1 Grand rifle because I know when the last rounds is expended, there's a ping sound that happens to, you know, let's to know that OK, the magazine is empty, right? Because I'm trying to be as intentional as impossible with the story that I'm telling.

15:07 And lastly, I'll just say this, and I just lost my train of thought. My apologies. But yeah, the intentionality and the authenticity is unmatched when it comes to a Broadway show. And it's definitely something that we as podcasters can definitely learn from. Oh, this is what I was going to say. So I just bought myself some time. The intentionality. When I'm writing a script, I'm always putting in the script notes what sound initially I'm going to put for this particular scene, for this particular part of the show. And it's not just sound as far as like a sound effect, it's also music. Is is this moment a poignant moment? Is it a happy moment? Is it a thinking moment? If it's a thinking moment, maybe I'm used some type of 80 kind of synthy sound, and I really want you to really be in a moment of thinking and contemplating about what was just said by me as the voice over or as the person that's being interviewed. So again, intentionality and authenticity is it's very much important when we're talking about sound design. One other thing for those of you that have not seen the move the show, it's on Disney Plus.

16:12 It it you can take a watch and catch up, so to speak. Thank you for sharing that, Alex, because I'm going to do just that because I'm one of those folks that hadn't seen it. So I'm definitely going to do that. But Dominic, thank you so much for bringing it to our attention. And I like what you were talking about there, Dominic. You're talking about understanding the audience, understanding all of the different venues that you're in. And I think that's a brilliant observation. No, I appreciate that is again, we're trying to create an experience for the listener, auditory experience for the listener. And so when you just turn a microphone on and just just kind of, you know, like it what they say, throw spaghetti at the wall. If you just throw sound to get up against the DAW to try to, you know, to say, hey, I got music in there, you're really are doing a disservice, right?

16:59 Like are you trying to create an experience or you just trying to get an episode out right. And that's why when it comes to a sound design of an episode or something like that, it usually take and I'm talking about not the script, not the research, not the recording, not the interviewee, simply just the sound design can take 345 days tops because I'm trying to make sure I'm getting the right sound for to create the correct experience or the best experience for the listener on the other end. Now, Dominic, can I ask you a follow up question to that, of course, because I'm thinking about somebody who's new to podcasting and that being a little overwhelming. Is there a way that you can bring somebody into that a little bit at a time?

17:41 Like is there a way to ease into? That I mean it could be right I think it's just one of those things where it it just takes a little bit of time like you again, the intentionality has to be there right now. Sure, you know, you could find something that works and for the most part, right, you're going to be able to convey and and tell the story that you want to tell, right? Like maybe, you know, maybe you don't need the M1 Garan sound exactly how you want it. Maybe the Springfield rifle would do just that. And honestly, it will get the job done right. But that honestly is what separates a good show from a great show is the intentionality and taking the time to to really go a little bit further than you otherwise would. Because listen, even if we're not talking about a narrative show, I have seen countless interview shows just throw some music up because they like it.

18:30 The song is dope. It's fine, it's great. But does it really convey what you're trying to talk about? Like I've heard shows, I've seen shows where it's like you're in this very poignant moment, but it's like a really rock heavy, you know, up tempo rock sound. It's like, yeah, that doesn't really match the tone of what you're talking about. But hey, do you Playboy? You know, so it's just one of those things where you really have to be intentional. And I think that's kind of the tone of what we're talking about today. Yeah, I agree with you. I think sometimes people think they need to use music for the sake of using music. And I think that's what. You're really getting at is that's exactly. The right answer, but did anybody else want to comment? I know, Nick. Puts yeah, Ralph, I, I, you know, I, I know he's downplaying it a lot, but, you know, you got to do your research. Listen to your favorite podcast.

19:17 I know one of the things that and Dominic and I have talked about this in the past. If you want good sound, listen to Ken Burns. You know, America, Civil War, all these different things. Watch the movies that and the podcasts that do it well. I mean, folks, you're right. As a new podcaster, Ralph, how the heck do you figure all this out? The way you figure it out is you listen and you understand what works and what sounds right. And I think that's the thing. You have to develop your ear, just like you have to exercise and just like you have to do your craft. So I know Nick has something.

19:58 Dominic, did you want to make another comment? I did. But I'll go after Nick all. Right, thanks to kind of in line with what Alex just saying, I think a lot of it is training yourself to pick up on those things and pay attention to those things. And it's something that does take work. I definitely don't have the ear. That was why when I was listening to this episode that we're talking about, like I watched Hamilton a ton and hearing them talk about some of the things like, Oh my gosh, I never realized that or I never noticed that. And it just because I haven't really trained myself to pick up on things like that. And I think that's the first step is if you want to start implementing this and being more intentional is listen to those shows with a different lens. Don't just listen to the content and what's being said, but listen to everything that's happening around the content that's being said.

20:48 And I think. Slowly over time, it's going to become almost second nature to hear those things and pick up on those things and start to understand how it's all kind of put together. And then when it comes to doing your own show, that's where it becomes a lot easier, is like you're looking at it through a different filter to like Dominic the same. When he's going to write a script, he's thinking about what is happening around the word that I'm saying and not just what are the words that I'm saying. And that's something that he's trained himself to do over periods of time of doing this stuff. And I, yeah, I just think it's not something you can just flip on necessarily, but it is something that you can train yourself to pay attention to and really pick up on over time. Thank you, Nick.

21:36 Go ahead. Dominic, you want to make another comment? Yeah, just really quickly and Jonathan, I know I'm hogging this, make this really quick. The first thing I, I did before I told the first story of Black as America was the story of John Fox, World War 2 Medal of Honor recipient, right? The first thing I did to start that training is I literally put on Saving Private Ryan, but I literally turned my back and close my eyes to the TV because I didn't want to see anything. All I wanted to do, because if you're familiar with that movie, The 1st 20 minutes is just craziness, right? Storming the beach and this and the other. But I turn my back, close my eyes because I just wanted to listen to every single sound that I can hear, OK? I hear this mortar, I hear this gunfire, I hear the scream and I hear, you know, German talking, screaming and this and the other, you know, orders and stuff like that. And so that was the process that I started to train my ear to just listen just to sound because that's the type of experience I was trying to bring to the show that I'm creating. It's that's probably 1 starting point to do like that. Kind of like listen to the Ken Burns I started with Saving Private Ryan.

22:43 Hi, Jonathan and your. Intention, absolutely. The intentionality is what's really important about this, and I'll talk a lot more about it in a few seconds. But first, I want to introduce the next three clips because they're going to teach you something that you might not expect. And after these three clips, you probably won't hear my shot from Hamilton the same ever again. And this is where the podcast kind of goes from, OK, that's a cool theory to this is what it does in real time. And it's pulling back the curtain and it's giving you just what how the sound is put together. So let's listen to our first intro to Hamilton. My shot is the introduction of Hamilton and also the spot where he decides that he's going to like put himself out there.

23:27 And he meets these guys in a Tavern in the place to be a 2 pint to Sam. Adams But I'm working on three. You have to start. Relationship building, It's first just four guys and they're beating on a table. They're table wrapping. That should feel like it's coming from the stage, but as Hamilton starts. To. Proclaim his manifesto or that he's going to do great things. The sound starts to expand with him and it gets louder. Revolutions in the Nint, what do you stall for? You stand for nothing, Burr. What do you fall for? Who are you? Who are you? Who are you? Who is this? Kid, what's he going to do? I am not throwing away my shot. I am not throwing away my.

24:10 Shot and it won't just swipe my country. I'm young, scrappy and hungry and I'm not. Throwing away my shot. So we noticed this isn't just a performance as we hear her kind of walk us through what's happening here. It's intentional construction. The layers are intentional. Everything is doing a job and every element has a purpose as it's explained. So, and I will be honest, I listened to the I saw Hamilton last year on Broadway. I listened to this episode before last year when and so when I was in the theater. This brings me back to hearing it in the theater. And it is truly incredible what they do to you in this moment. And this is really where it kind of has this build.

24:53 There's layers and what you're hearing is pushing the energy forward. It's not just a song, it's not a performance. It's pushing the energy and the emotions that they want you to feel towards you. And once you see that, it's really hard to Unsee it. So I don't know if anybody wants to comment there or we can go to the next clip and Lauren says let's get this guy in. Front of a crowd and then the ensemble comes in, so then the dynamic level takes a step up. Let's get this guy in front of a crowd. We don't go all the way yet because we've got. Another journey to go on, then the townspeople. Get added in and they're running through the streets. Lawrence is saying whoa, and he's telling everybody else to, like, jump in. Then we add some reverb in, and it's all through the town.

25:35 You can hear the sound surrounding you in the audience because the reverb is in the surrounds, like you're a part of it. And then we suck back down into just Hamilton's monologue. So in the previous clip, they revealed some of the basics of sound design, but now they're going a little bit deeper and they're showing you how all of these pieces are working together as the song and the emotions build as it pulls you into the song and the story. So what you're seeing here is the emotion isn't magic, it's manipulated and it is shifted by the things that they do. So as the energy builds and the excitement grows, you can hear there, it's part of it becomes part of what you're experiencing fully. And then the reverb is added and it's surrounding you. So what they're really doing is making you feel these things. So it's really teaching you how to recognize what's happening so you can see it yourself, which is preparing you for the payoff which will be coming in the next clip. But.

26:29 And you can feel this, I guess, when you're in the theater, having not seen this in the theater, is this something that engulfs you and you feel this all around you, Jonathan. It yes, it's something that you feel all around you and almost, I don't know, depending on what you were listening to it on, you can almost feel it from podcast episode. It's starting to build. You're feeling the tension around you and it's slowly and of course if you know the story, it makes it a little bit easier to feel the things. But it's you're getting the emotions, the connection to that just through the song. Yeah, I could definitely use in my head if you're in the and I can hear like. Yeah, there's two things. One, the reason why this episode and I want to go and listen to other episodes of what they're doing. The person that's speaking is the expert. It's not just some random person giving their take. She works on the production, she works on stage, if I'm not mistaken right, Jonathan, or am I making? That up?

27:21 No, she does. No, she. Does this every night. Exactly. And I think that's what gives it more as someone that's seen a lot of the bat behind the scenes stuff, that's what makes it even better. The second thing, Ralph, that you can't capture when you're in that audience, it's like a concert. It's like a rock concert. Everybody knows the words and they know what's coming. So that's what makes it even more exciting. Like my daughter knows the whole soundtrack because we list, we used to listen every morning going to school. So I mean, it is a phenomenon and that's why it is even better to pay off with this song. Hey, rough. I have a question. First off, before I go to my question, Dominic Nikki had put a question in the chat about where do you get the sound? And as somebody that uses a lot of sound, where do you get your sound design, your sound from?

28:09 From different places. Actually. One is our artist artlist dot IO has, you know, really great cinematic sound that I like to use, but sometimes it doesn't have the right sound. So maybe I'll go to envato elements or elements. Envato, I'm sorry, is one or the other use different sources to kind of source that sound. But also sometimes I'll go and create that sound like if I need like just some traffic, ambiance, whatever, I'll just go and record it as well. So sometimes, you know, again, be an intention and authentic in that regard is useful as well. And I want to make a comment if that's OK. I hope I'm not jumping the line here. Yeah, go right ahead. Yeah, so one of the things that I love when Jonna was talking about is the layers.

28:52 And he's right. It's like there's a different thing that's being Alan and added to, you know, as the emotion builds, right. You know, there's the reverb, there's the other people joining me. I'm not throwing away my shot. And that's honestly to get you, no, I don't want to say manipulation, but that's the word I can use. You're really being invested in this story. You're being invested in the person. And that's ultimately what we're trying to do as a storyteller. So by the end of this, this piece, the end of the story, the end of this play, the end of this, whatever, I'm really hoping, Wow, did he get his shot? I hope he gets his shot. Oh man, it's a shame he didn't get his shot, right? It's like the cinematic equivalent of I just can't wait to be King from The Lion King, where it's just him singing over in the beginning and then over time, the rest of the animals kind of join in because you're invested.

29:41 Like, is he going to be king? I hope he makes to be king. And so it really is having the audience invested in the principal part of the story that way either you're either laughing at the end, crying at the end, proud at the end, inspired at the end, or whatever it is that you as the storyteller is truck is trying to the emotion you're trying to invoke in the listener or the watcher that is. Go ahead, Sid, I think you had a question. Yeah, if I could find the meet button. Thank you, Ralph. You know, what I'm thinking about is I'm listening to this and listening to of you talk about this is that it takes a different type of creative brain to actually figure out sound design to go with the show. And what I'm wondering is they talked about how long, like over a year that they were planning all this.

30:23 Like how much time does this actually add and to your process? Like Dominic, like when you're doing Black as America, have you already figured out the sound before you record or do you recording it and then going back and adding the sound? Because not that adding work is a bad thing, because if it adds to your show, then that's great. I don't think that any type of sound design is going to work for my show, but I just wonder, like how much more time and planning does this actually take? It's one of those things, and that's a great point that Nick put in the chat, by the way, about foreshadowing, because that's literally what you're doing when you're doing this part. It depends. It again, when I'm writing the script and I know the idea of the show, there's some initial sound notes.

31:04 I mean, there's some initial notes and script notes. I'm going to put like, it'll be great to have this sound here. It'd be great to have the ocean, no waves crashing at this point particularly. And then I'll do the voice over and then either through research because research will actually help tell the story as well. Like, oh, I didn't realize that part. So we probably need to add in, you know, this submarine sound or something to this part because in the Navy documents, it says this happened. So we need to add this part into it as well so it can add more time. But it really is again, and I think we have all said this, the intentionality of the piece. I think it was Hans Zimmer who said when he was sound design signing and scoring, I believe Batman Begins, right?

31:47 And no, no, Christopher Noah gives him the script. He looks at the script and there's a part where he's playing this sound, but it's like, it's almost like the to the human ear. There's supposed to be another note at this particular part of the movie, but Hans Zimmer doesn't play it. Why? It's because Batman is a vigilante, not a hero. That last note is reserved for heroes, not vigilantes. So again, when we talk about intentionality and sound design, it's not just throwing music. It really is to help tell the story that you're trying to tell. And I want everybody to know that this some of the takeaways from this are not just sound design takeaways. It's about the all the other things that are on the scene that we can be better at during it when we're creating our podcast. So if you're thinking, I'm never going to be able to do sound design, don't worry, you can still get some takeaways from this.

32:37 But I did want to talk quickly about what this particular clip is kind of doing for you. It's teaching you how to see the patterns. Now, when you can see the pattern, you feel smarter, you feel more engaged in the podcast episode. And that means you stay longer. So instead of just saying this is what's happening, they're truly teaching you that this is what's happening. So you actually stay for more. So if your content only tells people what works, they're going to forget it. But if it shows them how it works, they'll start seeing it everywhere and they're going to stick around to learn more. So just a quick tip and something that we can take away for our podcast from that now. And Jonathan, as the money guy, let me just interject something. That's exactly what you want your audience to do. You want your completion rates to be higher. You want them to stick around.

33:21 So I think that's a very good observation and something we can all take away from this today. Yep, Yep. And now let's go to the payoff with clip 5. Just listen closely to it because I'm going to have some questions for you guys right after. When he finally starts talking to a crowd again and it builds to the fullest height and then we go through the whole. Final chorus. Everybody who's in the show is singing. And I am not throwing away my shot the first time. I'm thinking past tomorrow. You like live in that huge, loud, big moment for the rest of the song and then we slam it for the button. So anybody can answer, but how did your emotions change from the start of that song that three clips go to where we are now and where we landed? Jonathan, I'll jump in there and say I felt like I was at a concert.

34:11 Like that's honestly, I like, I feel like myself. I'm rising to my feet. I've got my hands up in the air and I'm I'm just, you know, jumping up and down. So which you don't want to see me jumping up and down. Not a good sight. But no. But that's the way I felt like I was being engulfed in this. I mean you all you wanted to do is just release that energy like you're at a concert. Did anybody else want to comment on? That I think I kind of mentioned this before, I think by the in the beginning, I'm like, who is Alexander Hamilton? Who is this dude? Why should I care to being like, oh, I'm riding with this guy. I want to really see how this plays out. And so again, the build up the layers, the adding the different things, it really converts you from who is Alexander Hamilton to I want to see how this plays out and it again and it really is just purposeful in that regard.

34:54 Thank you. I think that's a great observation, what you're. Feeling isn't really, you know what, it isn't your choice. What you're feeling was designed. The energy was built, the tension was controlled. The impact coming to the end of that song was intentional. And they didn't. It wasn't just about creating a great song, but it was engineering how the song lands with you. And that's why that song sticks. That's why when you go and see Hamilton, you're, you know, all the parts of that song. And what happened in this podcast is they didn't change the song. They just changed how you hear it. You hear all the layers now. You hear the decisions that they made. You hear how it's intentional. And that's what the podcast does so well. It upgrades your awareness of things. Now, again, just another quick take away. This is the gap that most of us have in our content. We're focused on what we say, not how it's landing. And your audience is responding to the layer that you're not paying attention to.

35:47 So pay attention to all the different aspects of your podcast. What could you do? Where is there a sound that is just not doesn't work or something that's just not going? If you're not paying attention to those little details, that's oftentimes what's actually impacting your audience. Jonathan, I want you to repeat what you just said because I think that's something that demands to be repeated because I think so many of us just rush to get the content about that. We don't think about how is this landing for the audience. But go ahead. I want you to repeat that because that is a that is one of the main takeaways that I had after looking at your notes today. Yeah. We're focused on what we're saying in our podcast, not how it's landing, not how people are feeling.

36:29 You know what, when we put something out there, we think that they're all on the same page as us. But there might be something that you're doing, something that you're the way that you're saying it, that's actually leading somebody to feel something very different than what you actually intend. O Pay attention to all the details, and pay attention to how it's going to land with your audience. But I guess that could go in either direction too, because you might think your intention is to do this, but they're actually doing this. So how do you really gauge that? Do you go and do some audience testing? Do you do some audience surveys? Or how do you do that, Jonathan? You know, I'm going to say Dominic is going to be a great person to answer that question. Honestly, and I appreciate that honestly, I look at the the completion rate because one of the things I understand is that like if where they're dropping off right.

37:18 So that's why in the 1st 2 minutes of mental health to be written in black as America or even with this example, my I'm trying to hook you in the 1st 90 seconds right it with this gripping story. That's why I'm going to drop you in the middle of the the beach in Normandy. I'm going to drop you in the middle of this, this very behavioral health crisis that somebody is having. And so the completion rate for me tells me, okay, I think I'm grabbing the people that I want to have. And to be honest, I have very modest number. My completion rate is about 8090% because I'm grabbing you in those first 90s and seconds. So that way, you know, you probably need to stick around to see how this plays out. That's honestly why a lot of true crime works.

38:01 That's honestly why a lot of narrative shows work. Sorry, I'm going to speak, I'm going to voice the, you know, for narratives here. But that's why a lot of narrative works because again, that completion rate tells me that. OK then people, a good story. And so you're trying to hook them in the very beginning now. Dominic, do you go back and change something that you've already released if you feel like the completion isn't getting you to where you want it to be? No, and that's only because it's one of those things where the integrity of the pieces is too important. It's not an ego thing. It's not a whatever thing. We just, we'll just figure it out for the next story that we're trying to to tell, right? Because again, while Black as America may not come out weekly or Mental health Rewritten may not come out weekly, we do have great subscriber numbers strictly from the standpoint of, you know, maybe you have to wait for it a little while, but you know, when it drops, I'm going to get a goodie and I'm going to get something that's impactful, that's inspiring this and the other.

38:54 So I won't do that mostly because for stories, you know, structure and tech now I will go back and do something if the research bears like, you know, there's new research that comes out and we need to go away and address that. There be some no production notes or something like that. But as far as like the structure of the episode, not so much. Dominic, I have a follow up question. O, where do you actually get this data? Are you looking like an ALE podcast connect and you're looking at the drop offs? Where are you getting this? If I want to geek out for a little bit and get real technical, how am I seeing this? I'm looking at Apple Podcast and that connected is probably the most reliable for me. And I'm also looking at my lips and numbers to see if there's anything else that's telling me as far as like no demographics where people are listening, things of that nature.

39:39 But for me, my completion rate is probably even more than download numbers. My completion rate is what I as a storyteller, I'm looking at the most because I need to understand, are you dropping off at 50%? OK, let's see what's happening at 50%. That's, you know, is the story dragging on too long? OK, let's fix that next time. But also at the same time, one of the things I've also noticed is that like in the initial stage, the completion rate is not as high, but over time for that same episode, it will get higher. That's simply because sometimes what we're talking about may be kind of heavy. Right. You know, if I'm talking about suicide for to be written, not everybody's going to just want to jump in like, oh, I can't wait for the next one, right? And I don't mean to be flippant about suicide, but I'm making the point about how sometimes the topic can be so heavy, I I need to kind of tone it down so that completion rate sometimes will go up higher later on.

40:36 And sometimes I just have to just let it play out a little. Bit and Dominic, I like what you said about downloads because I think we all get so hyper focused on the number of downloads. But what you said was that you're more focused on the completion rate. And I think all of us that is a key take away focus on the completion rate because if you just chase after the downloads, to me that doesn't mean a whole. Lot, yeah. And sponsors kind of worry about that completion rate too. By the way, just as the money guy, I appreciate you. Appreciate that. Absolutely, Dominic. Thank you. All right, so I have a question. We can do clip 6, which is a little bit of a spoiler. Anybody wants a spoiler? Or we can skip clip 6 and we can go straight to the things that we can take away from this and to ourselves. But before we do that, I just want to remind you with Clip 5, all the unseen things that in your podcast, they may have a deeper impact than you realize.

41:24 So pay attention to all those details. But who wants to skip? Who wants to go and listen to Eclipse Sick? I think we should listen to it, Jonathan. All right, there's a spoiler in there, but this is really where the sound stops supporting the story and actually controls the story. So it's really controlling the emotional experience here. And up until now, we've seen how the sound builds the energy and creates the tension. But this is where it goes a step further. And as we lead up to the final encounter between Burn, Hamilton and Burr goes to fire his gun and we stop time, the gunshot is actually reversed and choked so that we get the sense that we've stopped that bullet. And all the staging supports that idea.

42:05 We see the characters freeze. We see one of our ensemble members, who's actually referred to as the bullet, sort of pinch the air as though she's slowed the bullet down as it crosses the stage and is heading towards Hamilton. The ensemble dances the path of the bullet as Hamilton begins his final soliloquy, which is one of the only moments in the show that there is no music. I imagine death so much. It feels more like a memory. Is this where it gets me on my feet? Several feet ahead of me, I see it coming. Do I run or fire my gun or let it be? There is no beat, no melody. The only sound you hear is the sound of wind, which again is produced from the orchestration. And we take that sound and actually bring it into the room as Hamilton turns and talks, basically as he sees his life flash before his eyes.

42:51 I love take your time. I'll see you on the other side When we release time. We repeat the last phrase. He aims his pistol at the the sky or yells weight, and then we have the final gunshot, which reverberates through the theater. The sky. So in that we feel that shift, we feel everything building. Your attention is narrowing and I bet you your body even tensed up a little bit. And then suddenly the gunshot and it all kind of drops out. That's not sound design, that's control. They didn't make the dual dramatic. They actually designed how long it lasted in your mind. They designed where your attention would go and when you would hold your breath.

43:32 And that's why that moment stays with you. So here's the thing most people miss, and then I'll open up for questions. Every piece of content you create has moments like this. Moments where attention eaks, moments where emotion could land, Moments when somebody decides do I care about this or do I scroll. And most people leave those moments U to chance and don't actually capitalize on the opportunities they're they're creating for themselves and their content. So there we go. Comment or question? I'll just add to what Jonathan was saying. Like honestly, all the work behind the scenes, all the work leading up to that moment, it's like you're probably feeling it now and you probably like Jonathan was saying it's a spoiler, but a great story. With all those in mind, it's still going to be great even if you go back and watch Hamilton and listen to it now, right? But again, all that intentionality leading up to that moment, all of that, when it comes to your podcast, you could be very intentional about this. And I agree with Jonathan when he says all podcasts have these moments.

44:35 It's just a matter of how are you looking at it when you're creating it or when you're going through the pre interview or something like that, right? But no, it's a very important point that I think we should definitely kind of take away from. One other thing, it's not really a spoiler, Jonathan. He says it in the first song, but that's not the that's not the point. The take away from this scene that I love is silence is golden. And I don't mean silence is golden in the way we normally think. Silence is golden in this sense. It sets the stage. It gives you a reason. You've been going 100 miles an hour and then all of a sudden you stop and you have to focus. And that's what the sound, or in this case the lack of sound does. And I think what as podcasters we need to do is mimic that when we need to because we're so podcasters are people that speak like we do.

45:28 We want to get it all out. And sometimes you got to hit the brakes and listen, you know, you have the two ears and one mouth. And I always say that and I need to do that more than I'm just as much as anyone else. But having those pregnant pauses, having that moment where that bullet, when you see that scene, it recaps the whole entire show in that moment. And I think that's something that we can take away from. It's a great moment. Someone might favorite scenes, but in terms of the importance of it, it's great. And that's why as podcasters, we need to think about that at the end of our show or the end of our episode. How do we want to recap it? And will it be impactful? Because I know people listen to podcasts all the time and they're not actually listening to him and they might only listen to like 10 minutes here or there.

46:14 This is one way that you can really get those valuable 10 minutes. I think that's a really good point, Alex. It's something I've been working with my speaking coach. She said to me a couple of months ago, she says you need to let things land. And that is something that is not common for me. Like it took a lot of practice, it took a lot of repetitions to get to that point because she said to me, she goes, you have good points, she said, but you don't let them land here. You're already moving on to the next thing. And I'm still trying to figure out what she said three things ago. So, Alex, I think that's a great observation. Yeah, the pregnant pause is a very powerful tool that you can use, right? Like even when have the pause and you have that little bit of the piece of the music ending, it allows for the audience to kind of sit with what you just said to kind of really take in.

46:56 And I didn't really or didn't think of it that way. And if I could just geek out on the sound design really quickly at that end where, you know, the time stops and there's that reverb and his voice and it's almost like he's falling into this abyss of where he's heading. And then at the end where they take out the reverb and it's just this very intimate sounding moment right before everything happened. It's just brilliant work. And I think, again, like Jonathan was saying, I mean, you know, it really is kind of a control. I'm guiding you on this journey. I'm steering you into where I want you to land because this is the kind of the emotion I want you to feel. So it's just brilliant work. Ralph, I think Nikki had a question. Go ahead, Nikki. I'm sorry I didn't see you.

47:37 I apologize. To say how. Valuable. This discussion really has been because I took a class one time in college and it was all about literature and movie analysis and how you studied the words and the language and the symbols in the literature. But you also did the same thing in movies. And so I had developed an appreciation for the depth of. Thought and the detail orientedness of writers and of movie. Producers. From that lens, however, I hadn't really done it. For podcasting, probably because I I was so consumed with my own and like you said, Ralph, just getting the content out there, getting the repetition out there, which there's nothing wrong with that, but this conversation really has landed.

48:19 As you say, landed on me in a very different way and I. Hope to be able to. Incorporate the mindset of Dominic, you know, being very thoughtful and intentional about things, but also just kind of starting small for my own sake so that I don't completely go crazy and overboard and all of that. So I think it's just a great discussion that we've had today and I'm definitely going to be implementing the the thoughts on the small scale as of right now and then just kind of grow as I build and I'm really going to start studying these things like I did back in college and I think it's really going to help. Thank you, Nikki. I think that's a great observation. And I was just going to say to Dominic what you were saying about controlling the emotion. I think we all need to realize that we have that control in our podcast.

49:01 If we want people to feel something, we can make them feel that. We just have to figure out the way to, you know, engineer it to way to manipulate it so that they actually do feel that thing did. You just use the word manipulate. I did. So what you're really saying is we need to manipulate our audiences a little bit. Jonathan, I'm going to dig in there for a second. I don't think manipulation is a bad thing, but. Go ahead. Oh, I don't think that's a brilliant thing. I think that is the goal is to manipulate that into like Dominic said, to hanging in there, the completion rate being greater and really taking them on a journey. So I, I love the term actually, I think the word manipulation is perfect. It's no different than an advertiser and advertisers trying to manipulate you into buying their product.

49:41 Well, if you're a podcaster, you're trying to manipulate the audience into listening to your product. So, Jonathan, I say, hey, I'll give you a standing ovation for you so that. All right, well do we want to take, I have like 3 takeaways for you, things that you can try for your podcast. One of them is to stop posting and start designing. Start designing the experience you want your audience to have. Don't just put your podcast out and you know, have it be there. Most people create content by saying the thing that they want to say, explaining it and then ending and that's it. That's all they do. That's flat, that's linear, which remember, we don't have to create linear podcasts and it's forgettable. Try doing something like figuring out where your your story builds. Where does it slow down?

50:23 Where do you want it to hit? Because every piece of content needs a moment. It needs to have a moment. So that's the first take away. Next is to build tension before delivering the value. So most people do hook and and then immediately explain. So like Dominic was saying, he hooks them at the beginning of their, you know, the 1st 90 seconds. But then he doesn't immediately explain everything that you need to know because then there's not going to be any retention. There's not going to be any reason for them to actually listen. So introduce an idea, build curiosity, layer out the content, and then reveal what you need to reveal that delays and creates actual engagement so you don't have to rush it. And then the third and last one is to make the invisible visible. That's the entire DNA of 20,000 Hertz. It takes something that you don't normally notice and it makes it so understandable and so clear that you will never not see it again.

51:16 You will hear my shot and you will always be able to see those layers and uncover them. So do those sort of things with your content. You can create content that breaks down a common mistake, that shows what's actually happening, that explains why something feels a certain way. And that's authority content. That's content that makes you the expert and the people the person that people want to listen to so. There you go, Jonathan, I just want to say thank you for another great obsession worthy podcast. You do a fantastic job with these. You bring me into something I wouldn't have otherwise done. So thank you, Jonathan. I appreciate all the work you put into doing the clips and, and if you don't know this behind the scenes, Jonathan does a fantastic job of putting this together.

51:56 I think his slide presentation today was about 50 slides. So trust me, there's a lot of work that goes into this, Jonathan. So great work. And we're going to end it there. I want to invite everybody to join us again tomorrow. Tomorrow we're going to have a mail bag section. So until tomorrow, you all have a great day today.