484. What 'Twenty Thousand Hertz' Teaches About Podcast Sound Design

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Good morning podcasting morning
chat.

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Today is Monday, March 30th,
2026 and today is our Obsession

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00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,320
Worthy podcast show.
Jonathan Howard is going to

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present Hamilton by 20,000
Hertz.

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We're going to discuss why it's
obsession worthy and well, we

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can learn from it as podcasters.
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podcast, YouTube, LinkedIn,
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with a fellow podcaster.
Now give me about 30 seconds and

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we'll get things going.
Thanks for being here today.

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Well, good morning again

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podcasting morning chat.
Thank you so much for being

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here.
I am your fill in host for

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today, Ralph Estep Junior.
I'm filling in for Mark.

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Mark had a really long travel
day yesterday, so I'm here

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helping host the show with
Jonathan today and currently on

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stage for me.
This morning we have Alex

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Baelish, Dr. Faye, Jonathan
Howard, BC Babbel, Tide

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tutoring, Nick Naubach and
Dominic Lawson.

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Thank you for joining us today
on this show, Dominic.

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So thanks for being here
everyone.

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And Jonathan, I am going to hand
over the leadership to you.

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Jonathan's going to walk us
through this obsession worthy

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podcast today.
Yeah.

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So we are looking at 20,000
Hertz and we're looking at one

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of their episodes on Hamilton.
So you guys know Hamilton.

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So we're going to kind of dive
into it and go through some

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things that you may not have
noticed.

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But first, just so you guys
know, we do these obsession

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worthy podcasts to learn.
It's really a learning

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experience so we can figure out
what these podcasts that are

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doing so well, what we can learn
from them, what they're doing

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really well, and how we can
actually use that for our own

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podcast so that we can have
better podcasts.

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So yeah, why don't we just jump
right in?

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I'm going to kind of go through
what the concept of 20,000 Hertz

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is, but if anybody has any
questions, you know, you guys

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just yell at me or yell while
we're or get Ralph's attention.

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We'll we'll figure it out.
So on the surface, the show's

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about sound design, but really
it's about invisible influence.

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And you'll notice that a lot
with this particular episode.

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It's about how the things you
barely notice are actually

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guiding your attention, shaping
the emotions and creating the

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meaning that you are getting
from, you know, a lot of

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different things.
Sound is just the entry point.

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So it's building, building
really that trust with us, but

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that sound is the entry point.
So what's happening behind the

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scenes that's controlling your
experience is really what it's

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all about.
And the show keeps proving one

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thing.
Nothing is accidental.

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So that's what we're really
going to look at.

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The things you don't notice are
often the things that are

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influencing you the most, and
that's the DNA of 20,000 Hertz.

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So let's jump in.
So the show isn't, it's not

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really about sound, it's about
awareness.

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But once you see it, you cannot
see it.

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We're going to really dive into
how Hamilton sounds, but we're

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also going to look at how the
sound is actually telling a

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story, because the sound in this
musical is telling the story of

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the musical.
So let's hit that first clip to

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get us started.
We're listening to 20,000 Hertz.

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Even if you haven't seen
Broadway's 11 Tony winning box

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office record-breaking smash hit
Hamilton, odds are you've heard

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of it.
It's well known for the price

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and rarity of its tickets.
Tickets for the universally.

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Acclaimed musical Hamilton are
constantly selling out almost

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$900 a pop.
Lin Manuel Miranda is here with

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us.
I have to say, it's weird to see

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you in a theater without having
to pay $10,000.

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I went and saw it and then two
hours later I'm going.

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Why am I crying over Alexandra
Hamilton in?

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Fact.
Hamilton, I'm pretty sure, is

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the only thing that Dick Cheney
and I agree on.

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So this clip is really just
doing the setup for us.

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It was establishing that
Hamilton was truly iconic.

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It establishes the cultural
weight, and it reinforces

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hopefully some of your
familiarity with it.

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And what it's doing is it's
using Hamilton's existing

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reputation as a shortcut to
build trust.

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And then it's going to pivot
into the real story, which is

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the sound design, which we're
going to kind of jump into.

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But what this does is it opens
up the curiosity gap, you know

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Hamilton, but do you know what
how the sound really develops

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and makes Hamilton Hamilton?
And that's where this episode

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kind of goes from being a fan of
Hamilton to actually showing the

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craft.
And this clip is what I often

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called a doorway clip.
And it uses the what we already

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know to get the attention
quickly, build the trust, but

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then bring them into the hidden
layer of the podcast.

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So the clip is going to really
it really anchors the episode.

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It's something that's iconic
this, but we're going to see the

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real story that's behind it.
Now.

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I don't know if anybody has
again, I can't see.

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So if anybody has anything they
want to add, I'll jump.

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We can hit that.
I'll.

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Jump in here, Jonathan.
I had never seen Hamilton.

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I'd heard of Hamilton.
So this one for me was a little

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bit complicated to get into, if
I'm being very honest with you.

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So it made me do a little
research.

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But overall the production I
thought was excellent.

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It didn't overwhelm me with a
ton of advertisements, which was

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great.
It looks like this particular

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show though is something you
have to pay for generally.

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Or I guess I misunderstood a
little bit on one of the things

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I saw there was some sort of
Patreon, or not a Patreon, but

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some way of a gate for getting
in to pay for it or something

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along those lines.
Yeah, they do have additional

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content that goes that's in
Patreon for, you know, as a lot

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of people do to monetize their
podcast.

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They're doing it, they're
themselves.

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So they do have some stuff there
for Patreon.

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But yeah, I think I'm pretty
sure this episode was available

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for everybody to.
Correct.

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It was like I said, I just when
I first launched it, when I went

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to our and by the way, I just
want to throw this out there.

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If anybody wants to check out
any of our Obsession Worthy

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podcast, you can go to
podcastingmorningchat.com/owp.

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And that's what I had done.
And when I clicked on that link,

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it took me to a place where it
was not sure on the episode.

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So that's where I was asking
that question, Jonathan.

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But OK, does anybody else want
to comment before we move on to

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the second clip?
I'll chime in if I could.

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This is Dominic Lawson here.
Good morning.

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Good morning, Dominic.
Dominic, thank you so much for

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joining us.
Absolutely no, No, just to kind

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of reinforce what Jonathan was
saying, you know, when it comes

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to sound design, he talked about
intentionality.

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But I think it also helps
reinforce authenticity when it

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comes to reinforcing what
Hamilton is trying to, you know,

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prove what he's trying to show.
And one of the things I think of

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personally, I think I love about
this episode is that and what

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Hamilton does is that it
reinforces hip hop as high art,

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if you will.
And so, you know, again, when it

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comes to that intentionality and
authenticity and what Will in

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Manuel Miranda was trying to
convey, I think he does a really

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good job.
So really looking forward to get

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into this episode a little bit.
All right, yeah.

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And this second clip is is kind
of where it goes a little bit

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deeper.
It's this isn't just about it

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sounding good.
It was engineered to make you

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feel this way.
So it's beyond a great

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performance.
It's really a designed emotional

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experience.
And that's what we're going to

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hear about in that second clip.
When Hamilton was beginning its

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development, Tommy would
occasionally just drop me an

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e-mail or a phone call with
information and kind of a little

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backstage look at what Lynn was
working on and what the plans

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were for this piece.
I knew it was going to be

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something interesting and
exciting to work on, not to

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mention a lot of fun.
Nevin started his journey with

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Hamilton, where every member of
the creative team began with the

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script.
I'm giving the text and then

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after I've read it, the first
conversation with the director

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happens, and that's the
beginning of the sound design

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for a show.
The director and I and

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representatives from the music
department, including the

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composer or the orchestrator,
music supervision.

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We talk about architecture and
we talk about what it looks like

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and how it moves.
And then we talk about the

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venue.
Is it a 200 seed venue?

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Is it a 2000 seed venue?
And we'd start to put ourselves

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in the position of an audience
encountering this story and

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start to think about how sound
can help communicate it.

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And that process can go on for
years.

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When it does, usually the sound
design turns out better.

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That's exactly what happened
with Hamilton.

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Yeah.
So sound design starts at the

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script level and goes on for
years, which is what happened

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with Hamilton.
So we learned that it's it

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begins with the text in the
story.

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It evolves with the direction
and movement and obviously

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adapts to the space, the pacing
and the people that are actually

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performing it.
So I thought that was truly

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interesting, but it reminded me,
are we treating production on

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our own podcast as Polish or are
we planning out our production?

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And is everything that we're
putting into it a part of the

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strategy?
So that's my question for you

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guys.
And Jonathan, I thought that was

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a brilliant observation because
I was trying to decide where you

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were going to go with this
today.

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And I said when I got to give
everybody a little sneak peek,

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Jonathan shared the slide with
me ahead of today's show.

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So I had a chance to peek at
those.

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And yeah, Jonathan, that nails
it because, again, it goes back

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to one of the things I talk
about a lot, and that's

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intentionality.
What is your intention in this?

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But I don't want to hog the mic
here.

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Does anybody else want to
comment in what Jonathan just

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talked about?
I know Nick made a comment in

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the chat.
Nick, did you want to comment?

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I just said that I'm about due
to rewatch Hamilton, especially

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after listening to this, but I I
didn't find it really

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interesting and fascinating that
to the extent of that

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intentionality that they were
talking about with Hamilton.

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How like even just the smallest
little details that you might

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completely miss watching the
play or the show.

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It was so curated and done with
such intentionality.

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Like, it just kind of blew my
mind.

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And as they were talking about
that, I was starting to kind of

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pull myself out and look at the
actual episode itself.

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Because I'm, as I'm listening to
them, I'm thinking, OK, if

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they're talking about how
intentional is, how intentional

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are they being with the actual
episode that we're listening to

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and talking about here today,
Just kind of a fascinating.

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Look at all of it, yeah.
Absolutely.

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I don't know, Was Nick the only
one?

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I need to really have my phone
here.

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I need to do this but.
Anyone else want to comment?

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I think Sid and then then me.
Oh, go ahead, Sid.

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Good morning, everybody.
Hey, Dominic.

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It's great to see here, buddy.
More in the morning and I'll go

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after Alex, by the way.
Go ahead, Sid.

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So I have not seen Hamilton at
all.

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I have not listened to the show
before listening to this

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episode, but I was fascinated by
what he learned in this episode

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and the things that they shared
later.

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I assume you're sharing the clip
later about the music composure

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or the, yeah, the music
composing?

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Jonathan, I was just blown away
and like the things I could

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learn from this.
This is a really, really good

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episode and it does make you
think.

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You asked the question about
being intentional relative to

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00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,320
your show.
I'm a lot more intentional with

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00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,880
the structure of my show, the
prep for my show, and like now

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00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,840
with our sponsors, where
advertisers go and things of

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00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:33,480
that nature.
So, yeah, I do believe I'm a lot

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00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,200
more intentional today than I
was a couple of years ago, but

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00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,040
it's a learning process.
Later this year, we'll reflect

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00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,400
on Season 7 and see what we can
do better to improve for Season

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00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:43,680
8.
So it's a great question.

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00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:44,720
Though, Thank you, Sid.
Go ahead.

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00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,080
And Alex, you're up next.
First off, This is why

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00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,320
podcasting is great.
I was lucky enough to win the

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00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,280
$10 tickets so I've seen
Hamilton on Broadway and love

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00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,360
the show.
They also did a PBS documentary

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00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,920
which has a lot of this stuff in
it, but it still doesn't take

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00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:06,960
away from the episode.
This episode really shows why

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00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,680
Broadway slash how would
literally have the sausages

245
00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:12,480
made?
And that's what makes it so

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00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:14,360
amazing.
I've watched all the

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00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,120
documentaries.
We listen to the soundtrack all

248
00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,200
the time and you still, it's
like a warm blanket.

249
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:25,040
And every time you learn a
little bit more about a Broadway

250
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:26,600
show.
And I know there's a lot of

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00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,280
people in this room never seen a
Broadway show.

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00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,840
And if you ever get the chance,
there's nothing like it.

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00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,960
I know you're going to go to a
theater in your local place, but

254
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,400
there's nothing like Broadway.
And I know I'm being a total

255
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:44,120
snob when I say that, but what's
really neat is the detail.

256
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,600
And I know Nick said that, the
detail that goes into

257
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,000
everything.
And like, I learned a couple

258
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,440
things, which I know Jonathan's
going to probably talk about

259
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,680
clips because I don't know what
clips he's going to do, but

260
00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:57,920
everything even down to the
orchestra having a separate

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00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:02,360
soundtrack, which is amazing.
And I'm just eating it all up.

262
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,400
So, you know, for those of you
that have, I didn't know about

263
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,800
this podcast, but I was looking
at the different lists and I'm

264
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,280
gonna definitely check out the
different episodes because sound

265
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:18,040
is important and creating the
moment and the scene has so much

266
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,840
to do with the way you feel.
And I'm so glad that Dominic is

267
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,480
here because that's his, this is
what he does.

268
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,080
And it's always good to see
Dominic anyway, so.

269
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,800
Well, thank you, Alex.
Let's go ahead and go to Dominic

270
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,280
right now.
Good morning, Alex.

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00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,040
The feeling is mutual, Sir, for
sure.

272
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,240
No.
First of all, we got to address

273
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,120
the elephant.
In a room of so many people who

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00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,200
haven't seen Hamilton.
We got to fix I.

275
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:41,800
Agree.
What is it with that?

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00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,560
We got to fix that.
But no, when you go to a

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00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:47,880
Broadway show and I had the
privilege of going to see, I'm

278
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,600
blanking on the name of the show
that I went to go see, but it

279
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,480
had Audra McDonald kind of
leading.

280
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,720
It was fantastic over the past
summer.

281
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,960
And I agree with Alex, it's just
a different experience when you

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00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,920
go and to a show on Broadway.
But when it comes to this

283
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,680
particular clip, you know, the
thing that really got me was the

284
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:10,320
talking about the size of the
theater when you're adjusting on

285
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,280
the fly, because that's one of
the things I think about what I

286
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,760
think about my show Black as
America, and I think about

287
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,680
mental health rewritten.
Are you listening in the car?

288
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:20,480
Are you listening on the
treadmill?

289
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,280
Are you listening, you know,
with earphones or no earphones?

290
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,680
Are you know, what are you doing
when you're doing that?

291
00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,840
But so because I'm intentional
about, I may not want to have

292
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,080
certain things happening in the
show from a sound design

293
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,280
standpoint in the particular
show, but also again, the

294
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:42,080
authenticity of it.
So if you know, if I'm telling a

295
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,920
World War two-story, right,
yeah, I could just go and get

296
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,400
some type of rifle sound.
But I want a particular M1 Grand

297
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,160
rifle because I know when the
last rounds is expended, there's

298
00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,440
a ping sound that happens to,
you know, let's to know that OK,

299
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,720
the magazine is empty, right?
Because I'm trying to be as

300
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,440
intentional as impossible with
the story that I'm telling.

301
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,120
And lastly, I'll just say this,
and I just lost my train of

302
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:12,280
thought.
My apologies.

303
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,240
But yeah, the intentionality and
the authenticity is unmatched

304
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,240
when it comes to a Broadway
show.

305
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,320
And it's definitely something
that we as podcasters can

306
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,520
definitely learn from.
Oh, this is what I was going to

307
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:24,400
say.
So I just bought myself some

308
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:25,880
time.
The intentionality.

309
00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,520
When I'm writing a script, I'm
always putting in the script

310
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:34,400
notes what sound initially I'm
going to put for this particular

311
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,800
scene, for this particular part
of the show.

312
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,840
And it's not just sound as far
as like a sound effect, it's

313
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,640
also music.
Is is this moment a poignant

314
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,200
moment?
Is it a happy moment?

315
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,920
Is it a thinking moment?
If it's a thinking moment, maybe

316
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:53,080
I'm used some type of 80 kind of
synthy sound, and I really want

317
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,360
you to really be in a moment of
thinking and contemplating about

318
00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,240
what was just said by me as the
voice over or as the person

319
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,400
that's being interviewed.
So again, intentionality and

320
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,440
authenticity is it's very much
important when we're talking

321
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,760
about sound design.
One other thing for those of you

322
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,480
that have not seen the move the
show, it's on Disney Plus.

323
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:17,160
It it you can take a watch and
catch up, so to speak.

324
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,360
Thank you for sharing that,
Alex, because I'm going to do

325
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,560
just that because I'm one of
those folks that hadn't seen it.

326
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,240
So I'm definitely going to do
that.

327
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,080
But Dominic, thank you so much
for bringing it to our

328
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:26,920
attention.
And I like what you were talking

329
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:28,440
about there, Dominic.
You're talking about

330
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,920
understanding the audience,
understanding all of the

331
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,440
different venues that you're in.
And I think that's a brilliant

332
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,040
observation.
No, I appreciate that is again,

333
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,320
we're trying to create an
experience for the listener,

334
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,360
auditory experience for the
listener.

335
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,440
And so when you just turn a
microphone on and just just kind

336
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,800
of, you know, like it what they
say, throw spaghetti at the

337
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:52,600
wall.
If you just throw sound to get

338
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,360
up against the DAW to try to,
you know, to say, hey, I got

339
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,600
music in there, you're really
are doing a disservice, right?

340
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,840
Like are you trying to create an
experience or you just trying to

341
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,960
get an episode out right.
And that's why when it comes to

342
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,119
a sound design of an episode or
something like that, it usually

343
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,119
take and I'm talking about not
the script, not the research,

344
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,520
not the recording, not the
interviewee, simply just the

345
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:20,280
sound design can take 345 days
tops because I'm trying to make

346
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,160
sure I'm getting the right sound
for to create the correct

347
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,319
experience or the best
experience for the listener on

348
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:29,800
the other end.
Now, Dominic, can I ask you a

349
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,800
follow up question to that, of
course, because I'm thinking

350
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,760
about somebody who's new to
podcasting and that being a

351
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,760
little overwhelming.
Is there a way that you can

352
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,040
bring somebody into that a
little bit at a time?

353
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:42,600
Like is there a way to ease
into?

354
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,800
That I mean it could be right I
think it's just one of those

355
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,880
things where it it just takes a
little bit of time like you

356
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,600
again, the intentionality has to
be there right now.

357
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,920
Sure, you know, you could find
something that works and for the

358
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,440
most part, right, you're going
to be able to convey and and

359
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,360
tell the story that you want to
tell, right?

360
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:05,600
Like maybe, you know, maybe you
don't need the M1 Garan sound

361
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,080
exactly how you want it.
Maybe the Springfield rifle

362
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,600
would do just that.
And honestly, it will get the

363
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,520
job done right.
But that honestly is what

364
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,240
separates a good show from a
great show is the intentionality

365
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,960
and taking the time to to really
go a little bit further than you

366
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,280
otherwise would.
Because listen, even if we're

367
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,120
not talking about a narrative
show, I have seen countless

368
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:30,400
interview shows just throw some
music up because they like it.

369
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,200
The song is dope.
It's fine, it's great.

370
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,000
But does it really convey what
you're trying to talk about?

371
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,760
Like I've heard shows, I've seen
shows where it's like you're in

372
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,480
this very poignant moment, but
it's like a really rock heavy,

373
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,840
you know, up tempo rock sound.
It's like, yeah, that doesn't

374
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,040
really match the tone of what
you're talking about.

375
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,520
But hey, do you Playboy?
You know, so it's just one of

376
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,560
those things where you really
have to be intentional.

377
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,760
And I think that's kind of the
tone of what we're talking about

378
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,160
today.
Yeah, I agree with you.

379
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,600
I think sometimes people think
they need to use music for the

380
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,080
sake of using music.
And I think that's what.

381
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:06,720
You're really getting at is
that's exactly.

382
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,440
The right answer, but did
anybody else want to comment?

383
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,080
I know, Nick.
Puts yeah, Ralph, I, I, you

384
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,400
know, I, I know he's downplaying
it a lot, but, you know, you got

385
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,240
to do your research.
Listen to your favorite podcast.

386
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,160
I know one of the things that
and Dominic and I have talked

387
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,560
about this in the past.
If you want good sound, listen

388
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,960
to Ken Burns.
You know, America, Civil War,

389
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,880
all these different things.
Watch the movies that and the

390
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:38,440
podcasts that do it well.
I mean, folks, you're right.

391
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,160
As a new podcaster, Ralph, how
the heck do you figure all this

392
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,320
out?
The way you figure it out is you

393
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,960
listen and you understand what
works and what sounds right.

394
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,960
And I think that's the thing.
You have to develop your ear,

395
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,280
just like you have to exercise
and just like you have to do

396
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,960
your craft.
So I know Nick has something.

397
00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,440
Dominic, did you want to make
another comment?

398
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:00,680
I did.
But I'll go after Nick all.

399
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,120
Right, thanks to kind of in line
with what Alex just saying, I

400
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:08,840
think a lot of it is training
yourself to pick up on those

401
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:10,480
things and pay attention to
those things.

402
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,880
And it's something that does
take work.

403
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,200
I definitely don't have the ear.
That was why when I was

404
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,640
listening to this episode that
we're talking about, like I

405
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,040
watched Hamilton a ton and
hearing them talk about some of

406
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,960
the things like, Oh my gosh, I
never realized that or I never

407
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,080
noticed that.
And it just because I haven't

408
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,920
really trained myself to pick up
on things like that.

409
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,200
And I think that's the first
step is if you want to start

410
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,680
implementing this and being more
intentional is listen to those

411
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,320
shows with a different lens.
Don't just listen to the content

412
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,120
and what's being said, but
listen to everything that's

413
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:48,040
happening around the content
that's being said.

414
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,200
And I think.
Slowly over time, it's going to

415
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:56,320
become almost second nature to
hear those things and pick up on

416
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,120
those things and start to
understand how it's all kind of

417
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,240
put together.
And then when it comes to doing

418
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,480
your own show, that's where it
becomes a lot easier, is like

419
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:10,680
you're looking at it through a
different filter to like Dominic

420
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,000
the same.
When he's going to write a

421
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,600
script, he's thinking about what
is happening around the word

422
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,640
that I'm saying and not just
what are the words that I'm

423
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,240
saying.
And that's something that he's

424
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:26,000
trained himself to do over
periods of time of doing this

425
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,120
stuff.
And I, yeah, I just think it's

426
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,360
not something you can just flip
on necessarily, but it is

427
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:34,160
something that you can train
yourself to pay attention to and

428
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,720
really pick up on over time.
Thank you, Nick.

429
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:37,840
Go ahead.
Dominic, you want to make

430
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,800
another comment?
Yeah, just really quickly and

431
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,280
Jonathan, I know I'm hogging
this, make this really quick.

432
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,600
The first thing I, I did before
I told the first story of Black

433
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,800
as America was the story of John
Fox, World War 2 Medal of Honor

434
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,960
recipient, right?
The first thing I did to start

435
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:58,760
that training is I literally put
on Saving Private Ryan, but I

436
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,320
literally turned my back and
close my eyes to the TV because

437
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,320
I didn't want to see anything.
All I wanted to do, because if

438
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,960
you're familiar with that movie,
The 1st 20 minutes is just

439
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,920
craziness, right?
Storming the beach and this and

440
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,280
the other.
But I turn my back, close my

441
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,560
eyes because I just wanted to
listen to every single sound

442
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,120
that I can hear, OK?
I hear this mortar, I hear this

443
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:22,840
gunfire, I hear the scream and I
hear, you know, German talking,

444
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,280
screaming and this and the
other, you know, orders and

445
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,440
stuff like that.
And so that was the process that

446
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,880
I started to train my ear to
just listen just to sound

447
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,880
because that's the type of
experience I was trying to bring

448
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,280
to the show that I'm creating.
It's that's probably 1 starting

449
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,920
point to do like that.
Kind of like listen to the Ken

450
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:43,880
Burns I started with Saving
Private Ryan.

451
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,360
Hi, Jonathan and your.
Intention, absolutely.

452
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:48,920
The intentionality is what's
really important about this, and

453
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,480
I'll talk a lot more about it in
a few seconds.

454
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,280
But first, I want to introduce
the next three clips because

455
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,080
they're going to teach you
something that you might not

456
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,320
expect.
And after these three clips, you

457
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,840
probably won't hear my shot from
Hamilton the same ever again.

458
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,320
And this is where the podcast
kind of goes from, OK, that's a

459
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,160
cool theory to this is what it
does in real time.

460
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:14,040
And it's pulling back the
curtain and it's giving you just

461
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,400
what how the sound is put
together.

462
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,480
So let's listen to our first
intro to Hamilton.

463
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,760
My shot is the introduction of
Hamilton and also the spot where

464
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,360
he decides that he's going to
like put himself out there.

465
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:32,040
And he meets these guys in a
Tavern in the place to be a 2

466
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,840
pint to Sam.
Adams But I'm working on three.

467
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,760
You have to start.
Relationship building, It's

468
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,680
first just four guys and they're
beating on a table.

469
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,320
They're table wrapping.
That should feel like it's

470
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,720
coming from the stage, but as
Hamilton starts.

471
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,520
To.
Proclaim his manifesto or that

472
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,200
he's going to do great things.
The sound starts to expand with

473
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,440
him and it gets louder.
Revolutions in the Nint, what do

474
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,040
you stall for?
You stand for nothing, Burr.

475
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,160
What do you fall for?
Who are you?

476
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:01,800
Who are you?
Who are you?

477
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,080
Who is this?
Kid, what's he going to do?

478
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,760
I am not throwing away my shot.
I am not throwing away my.

479
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,200
Shot and it won't just swipe my
country.

480
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,040
I'm young, scrappy and hungry
and I'm not.

481
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,480
Throwing away my shot.
So we noticed this isn't just a

482
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,040
performance as we hear her kind
of walk us through what's

483
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,720
happening here.
It's intentional construction.

484
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,880
The layers are intentional.
Everything is doing a job and

485
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,280
every element has a purpose as
it's explained.

486
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,520
So, and I will be honest, I
listened to the I saw Hamilton

487
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,440
last year on Broadway.
I listened to this episode

488
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,240
before last year when and so
when I was in the theater.

489
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,640
This brings me back to hearing
it in the theater.

490
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:50,000
And it is truly incredible what
they do to you in this moment.

491
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,280
And this is really where it kind
of has this build.

492
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,600
There's layers and what you're
hearing is pushing the energy

493
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,160
forward.
It's not just a song, it's not a

494
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,240
performance.
It's pushing the energy and the

495
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,880
emotions that they want you to
feel towards you.

496
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,320
And once you see that, it's
really hard to Unsee it.

497
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,480
So I don't know if anybody wants
to comment there or we can go to

498
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,280
the next clip and Lauren says
let's get this guy in.

499
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,480
Front of a crowd and then the
ensemble comes in, so then the

500
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,160
dynamic level takes a step up.
Let's get this guy in front of a

501
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:21,720
crowd.
We don't go all the way yet

502
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,720
because we've got.
Another journey to go on, then

503
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,520
the townspeople.
Get added in and they're running

504
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,160
through the streets.
Lawrence is saying whoa, and

505
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,520
he's telling everybody else to,
like, jump in.

506
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,720
Then we add some reverb in, and
it's all through the town.

507
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,120
You can hear the sound
surrounding you in the audience

508
00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:40,640
because the reverb is in the
surrounds, like you're a part of

509
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,840
it.
And then we suck back down into

510
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,000
just Hamilton's monologue.
So in the previous clip, they

511
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,400
revealed some of the basics of
sound design, but now they're

512
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,720
going a little bit deeper and
they're showing you how all of

513
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,320
these pieces are working
together as the song and the

514
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,080
emotions build as it pulls you
into the song and the story.

515
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,880
So what you're seeing here is
the emotion isn't magic, it's

516
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,560
manipulated and it is shifted by
the things that they do.

517
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,960
So as the energy builds and the
excitement grows, you can hear

518
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,800
there, it's part of it becomes
part of what you're experiencing

519
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,560
fully.
And then the reverb is added and

520
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,280
it's surrounding you.
So what they're really doing is

521
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,240
making you feel these things.
So it's really teaching you how

522
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,680
to recognize what's happening so
you can see it yourself, which

523
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,000
is preparing you for the payoff
which will be coming in the next

524
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:28,720
clip.
But.

525
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,480
And you can feel this, I guess,
when you're in the theater,

526
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,520
having not seen this in the
theater, is this something that

527
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,960
engulfs you and you feel this
all around you, Jonathan.

528
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,400
It yes, it's something that you
feel all around you and almost,

529
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,240
I don't know, depending on what
you were listening to it on, you

530
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,120
can almost feel it from podcast
episode.

531
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:47,640
It's starting to build.
You're feeling the tension

532
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,600
around you and it's slowly and
of course if you know the story,

533
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,200
it makes it a little bit easier
to feel the things.

534
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,640
But it's you're getting the
emotions, the connection to that

535
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,640
just through the song.
Yeah, I could definitely use in

536
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,040
my head if you're in the and I
can hear like.

537
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,400
Yeah, there's two things.
One, the reason why this episode

538
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,080
and I want to go and listen to
other episodes of what they're

539
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,240
doing.
The person that's speaking is

540
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,200
the expert.
It's not just some random person

541
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,440
giving their take.
She works on the production, she

542
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,960
works on stage, if I'm not
mistaken right, Jonathan, or am

543
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:21,640
I making?
That up?

544
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,320
No, she does.
No, she.

545
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,000
Does this every night.
Exactly.

546
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,880
And I think that's what gives it
more as someone that's seen a

547
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,240
lot of the bat behind the scenes
stuff, that's what makes it even

548
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,560
better.
The second thing, Ralph, that

549
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,000
you can't capture when you're in
that audience, it's like a

550
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,960
concert.
It's like a rock concert.

551
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,040
Everybody knows the words and
they know what's coming.

552
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:43,560
So that's what makes it even
more exciting.

553
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,200
Like my daughter knows the whole
soundtrack because we list, we

554
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,760
used to listen every morning
going to school.

555
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:55,720
So I mean, it is a phenomenon
and that's why it is even better

556
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,520
to pay off with this song.
Hey, rough.

557
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,280
I have a question.
First off, before I go to my

558
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,600
question, Dominic Nikki had put
a question in the chat about

559
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,280
where do you get the sound?
And as somebody that uses a lot

560
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,760
of sound, where do you get your
sound design, your sound from?

561
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:10,880
From different places.
Actually.

562
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:16,160
One is our artist artlist dot IO
has, you know, really great

563
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,560
cinematic sound that I like to
use, but sometimes it doesn't

564
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,240
have the right sound.
So maybe I'll go to envato

565
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,000
elements or elements.
Envato, I'm sorry, is one or the

566
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,080
other use different sources to
kind of source that sound.

567
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,400
But also sometimes I'll go and
create that sound like if I need

568
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,160
like just some traffic,
ambiance, whatever, I'll just go

569
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,120
and record it as well.
So sometimes, you know, again,

570
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,560
be an intention and authentic in
that regard is useful as well.

571
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,280
And I want to make a comment if
that's OK.

572
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:46,720
I hope I'm not jumping the line
here.

573
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,080
Yeah, go right ahead.
Yeah, so one of the things that

574
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,720
I love when Jonna was talking
about is the layers.

575
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,520
And he's right.
It's like there's a different

576
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,480
thing that's being Alan and
added to, you know, as the

577
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,320
emotion builds, right.
You know, there's the reverb,

578
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,120
there's the other people joining
me.

579
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,720
I'm not throwing away my shot.
And that's honestly to get you,

580
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,120
no, I don't want to say
manipulation, but that's the

581
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,280
word I can use.
You're really being invested in

582
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,120
this story.
You're being invested in the

583
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:15,880
person.
And that's ultimately what we're

584
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,440
trying to do as a storyteller.
So by the end of this, this

585
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,040
piece, the end of the story, the
end of this play, the end of

586
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,120
this, whatever, I'm really
hoping, Wow, did he get his

587
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,000
shot?
I hope he gets his shot.

588
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,240
Oh man, it's a shame he didn't
get his shot, right?

589
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,000
It's like the cinematic
equivalent of I just can't wait

590
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,360
to be King from The Lion King,
where it's just him singing over

591
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,520
in the beginning and then over
time, the rest of the animals

592
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,360
kind of join in because you're
invested.

593
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,960
Like, is he going to be king?
I hope he makes to be king.

594
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,800
And so it really is having the
audience invested in the

595
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,960
principal part of the story that
way either you're either

596
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,560
laughing at the end, crying at
the end, proud at the end,

597
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,600
inspired at the end, or whatever
it is that you as the

598
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,480
storyteller is truck is trying
to the emotion you're trying to

599
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,400
invoke in the listener or the
watcher that is.

600
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,040
Go ahead, Sid, I think you had a
question.

601
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:05,920
Yeah, if I could find the meet
button.

602
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,720
Thank you, Ralph.
You know, what I'm thinking

603
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,040
about is I'm listening to this
and listening to of you talk

604
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,160
about this is that it takes a
different type of creative brain

605
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,920
to actually figure out sound
design to go with the show.

606
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,800
And what I'm wondering is they
talked about how long, like over

607
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,640
a year that they were planning
all this.

608
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,680
Like how much time does this
actually add and to your

609
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,480
process?
Like Dominic, like when you're

610
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,720
doing Black as America, have you
already figured out the sound

611
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,880
before you record or do you
recording it and then going back

612
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,320
and adding the sound?
Because not that adding work is

613
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,200
a bad thing, because if it adds
to your show, then that's great.

614
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,360
I don't think that any type of
sound design is going to work

615
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,960
for my show, but I just wonder,
like how much more time and

616
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,480
planning does this actually
take?

617
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,480
It's one of those things, and
that's a great point that Nick

618
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,080
put in the chat, by the way,
about foreshadowing, because

619
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,560
that's literally what you're
doing when you're doing this

620
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:57,680
part.
It depends.

621
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,640
It again, when I'm writing the
script and I know the idea of

622
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,240
the show, there's some initial
sound notes.

623
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,040
I mean, there's some initial
notes and script notes.

624
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,040
I'm going to put like, it'll be
great to have this sound here.

625
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,720
It'd be great to have the ocean,
no waves crashing at this point

626
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,600
particularly.
And then I'll do the voice over

627
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,760
and then either through research
because research will actually

628
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,840
help tell the story as well.
Like, oh, I didn't realize that

629
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,680
part.
So we probably need to add in,

630
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,200
you know, this submarine sound
or something to this part

631
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,360
because in the Navy documents,
it says this happened.

632
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,280
So we need to add this part into
it as well so it can add more

633
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,880
time.
But it really is again, and I

634
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,360
think we have all said this, the
intentionality of the piece.

635
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,600
I think it was Hans Zimmer who
said when he was sound design

636
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,720
signing and scoring, I believe
Batman Begins, right?

637
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,160
And no, no, Christopher Noah
gives him the script.

638
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,520
He looks at the script and
there's a part where he's

639
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,640
playing this sound, but it's
like, it's almost like the to

640
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,360
the human ear.
There's supposed to be another

641
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,760
note at this particular part of
the movie, but Hans Zimmer

642
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,480
doesn't play it.
Why?

643
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,880
It's because Batman is a
vigilante, not a hero.

644
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,040
That last note is reserved for
heroes, not vigilantes.

645
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,080
So again, when we talk about
intentionality and sound design,

646
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,320
it's not just throwing music.
It really is to help tell the

647
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,080
story that you're trying to
tell.

648
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,280
And I want everybody to know
that this some of the takeaways

649
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,760
from this are not just sound
design takeaways.

650
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,960
It's about the all the other
things that are on the scene

651
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,280
that we can be better at during
it when we're creating our

652
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,440
podcast.
So if you're thinking, I'm never

653
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,640
going to be able to do sound
design, don't worry, you can

654
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,000
still get some takeaways from
this.

655
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,360
But I did want to talk quickly
about what this particular clip

656
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,000
is kind of doing for you.
It's teaching you how to see the

657
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,000
patterns.
Now, when you can see the

658
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,680
pattern, you feel smarter, you
feel more engaged in the podcast

659
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,200
episode.
And that means you stay longer.

660
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,960
So instead of just saying this
is what's happening, they're

661
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,960
truly teaching you that this is
what's happening.

662
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,840
So you actually stay for more.
So if your content only tells

663
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,760
people what works, they're going
to forget it.

664
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,440
But if it shows them how it
works, they'll start seeing it

665
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,680
everywhere and they're going to
stick around to learn more.

666
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,800
So just a quick tip and
something that we can take away

667
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,960
for our podcast from that now.
And Jonathan, as the money guy,

668
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,600
let me just interject something.
That's exactly what you want

669
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,880
your audience to do.
You want your completion rates

670
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,760
to be higher.
You want them to stick around.

671
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,880
So I think that's a very good
observation and something we can

672
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,040
all take away from this today.
Yep, Yep.

673
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,080
And now let's go to the payoff
with clip 5.

674
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,040
Just listen closely to it
because I'm going to have some

675
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:33,360
questions for you guys right
after.

676
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,400
When he finally starts talking
to a crowd again and it builds

677
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,240
to the fullest height and then
we go through the whole.

678
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,640
Final chorus.
Everybody who's in the show is

679
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,680
singing.
And I am not throwing away my

680
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,400
shot the first time.
I'm thinking past tomorrow.

681
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,280
You like live in that huge,
loud, big moment for the rest of

682
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:58,920
the song and then we slam it for
the button.

683
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,800
So anybody can answer, but how
did your emotions change from

684
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,600
the start of that song that
three clips go to where we are

685
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,679
now and where we landed?
Jonathan, I'll jump in there and

686
00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:11,280
say I felt like I was at a
concert.

687
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,800
Like that's honestly, I like, I
feel like myself.

688
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,080
I'm rising to my feet.
I've got my hands up in the air

689
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,199
and I'm I'm just, you know,
jumping up and down.

690
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:20,080
So which you don't want to see
me jumping up and down.

691
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,159
Not a good sight.
But no.

692
00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:23,760
But that's the way I felt like I
was being engulfed in this.

693
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,719
I mean you all you wanted to do
is just release that energy like

694
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,760
you're at a concert.
Did anybody else want to comment

695
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,360
on?
That I think I kind of mentioned

696
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,760
this before, I think by the in
the beginning, I'm like, who is

697
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,520
Alexander Hamilton?
Who is this dude?

698
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,199
Why should I care to being like,
oh, I'm riding with this guy.

699
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:40,000
I want to really see how this
plays out.

700
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,480
And so again, the build up the
layers, the adding the different

701
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,800
things, it really converts you
from who is Alexander Hamilton

702
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,639
to I want to see how this plays
out and it again and it really

703
00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:53,719
is just purposeful in that
regard.

704
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:55,719
Thank you.
I think that's a great

705
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,320
observation, what you're.
Feeling isn't really, you know

706
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,680
what, it isn't your choice.
What you're feeling was

707
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,520
designed.
The energy was built, the

708
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,000
tension was controlled.
The impact coming to the end of

709
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,960
that song was intentional.
And they didn't.

710
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,920
It wasn't just about creating a
great song, but it was

711
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,960
engineering how the song lands
with you.

712
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,840
And that's why that song sticks.
That's why when you go and see

713
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,320
Hamilton, you're, you know, all
the parts of that song.

714
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,320
And what happened in this
podcast is they didn't change

715
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,240
the song.
They just changed how you hear

716
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:28,640
it.
You hear all the layers now.

717
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,200
You hear the decisions that they
made.

718
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,000
You hear how it's intentional.
And that's what the podcast does

719
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,480
so well.
It upgrades your awareness of

720
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,520
things.
Now, again, just another quick

721
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,800
take away.
This is the gap that most of us

722
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,480
have in our content.
We're focused on what we say,

723
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,200
not how it's landing.
And your audience is responding

724
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,240
to the layer that you're not
paying attention to.

725
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:50,200
So pay attention to all the
different aspects of your

726
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,200
podcast.
What could you do?

727
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,480
Where is there a sound that is
just not doesn't work or

728
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,800
something that's just not going?
If you're not paying attention

729
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,520
to those little details, that's
oftentimes what's actually

730
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,800
impacting your audience.
Jonathan, I want you to repeat

731
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,360
what you just said because I
think that's something that

732
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,760
demands to be repeated because I
think so many of us just rush to

733
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,880
get the content about that.
We don't think about how is this

734
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,800
landing for the audience.
But go ahead.

735
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,400
I want you to repeat that
because that is a that is one of

736
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,880
the main takeaways that I had
after looking at your notes

737
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:22,360
today.
Yeah.

738
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,240
We're focused on what we're
saying in our podcast, not how

739
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:29,720
it's landing, not how people are
feeling.

740
00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:34,920
You know what, when we put
something out there, we think

741
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,560
that they're all on the same
page as us.

742
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,480
But there might be something
that you're doing, something

743
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,760
that you're the way that you're
saying it, that's actually

744
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,520
leading somebody to feel
something very different than

745
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,440
what you actually intend.
O Pay attention to all the

746
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,960
details, and pay attention to
how it's going to land with your

747
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,760
audience.
But I guess that could go in

748
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,000
either direction too, because
you might think your intention

749
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,480
is to do this, but they're
actually doing this.

750
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,720
So how do you really gauge that?
Do you go and do some audience

751
00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:03,520
testing?
Do you do some audience surveys?

752
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,880
Or how do you do that, Jonathan?
You know, I'm going to say

753
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,200
Dominic is going to be a great
person to answer that question.

754
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,120
Honestly, and I appreciate that
honestly, I look at the the

755
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,640
completion rate because one of
the things I understand is that

756
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,440
like if where they're dropping
off right.

757
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,240
So that's why in the 1st 2
minutes of mental health to be

758
00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:24,720
written in black as America or
even with this example, my I'm

759
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:29,040
trying to hook you in the 1st 90
seconds right it with this

760
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,800
gripping story.
That's why I'm going to drop you

761
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,320
in the middle of the the beach
in Normandy.

762
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,120
I'm going to drop you in the
middle of this, this very

763
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,920
behavioral health crisis that
somebody is having.

764
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,840
And so the completion rate for
me tells me, okay, I think I'm

765
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,520
grabbing the people that I want
to have.

766
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,240
And to be honest, I have very
modest number.

767
00:37:48,240 --> 00:37:52,600
My completion rate is about
8090% because I'm grabbing you

768
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,720
in those first 90s and seconds.
So that way, you know, you

769
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:58,160
probably need to stick around to
see how this plays out.

770
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,000
That's honestly why a lot of
true crime works.

771
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,760
That's honestly why a lot of
narrative shows work.

772
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,240
Sorry, I'm going to speak, I'm
going to voice the, you know,

773
00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:08,200
for narratives here.
But that's why a lot of

774
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,880
narrative works because again,
that completion rate tells me

775
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,280
that.
OK then people, a good story.

776
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,120
And so you're trying to hook
them in the very beginning now.

777
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,680
Dominic, do you go back and
change something that you've

778
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,920
already released if you feel
like the completion isn't

779
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,240
getting you to where you want it
to be?

780
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,320
No, and that's only because it's
one of those things where the

781
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,680
integrity of the pieces is too
important.

782
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,280
It's not an ego thing.
It's not a whatever thing.

783
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,800
We just, we'll just figure it
out for the next story that

784
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,760
we're trying to to tell, right?
Because again, while Black as

785
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,760
America may not come out weekly
or Mental health Rewritten may

786
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,160
not come out weekly, we do have
great subscriber numbers

787
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,720
strictly from the standpoint of,
you know, maybe you have to wait

788
00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:50,040
for it a little while, but you
know, when it drops, I'm going

789
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,800
to get a goodie and I'm going to
get something that's impactful,

790
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,760
that's inspiring this and the
other.

791
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,600
So I won't do that mostly
because for stories, you know,

792
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,040
structure and tech now I will go
back and do something if the

793
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,120
research bears like, you know,
there's new research that comes

794
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,120
out and we need to go away and
address that.

795
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,880
There be some no production
notes or something like that.

796
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,720
But as far as like the structure
of the episode, not so much.

797
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:14,720
Dominic, I have a follow up
question.

798
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,680
O, where do you actually get
this data?

799
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,080
Are you looking like an ALE
podcast connect and you're

800
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:21,920
looking at the drop offs?
Where are you getting this?

801
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,880
If I want to geek out for a
little bit and get real

802
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:28,000
technical, how am I seeing this?
I'm looking at Apple Podcast and

803
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,320
that connected is probably the
most reliable for me.

804
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,040
And I'm also looking at my lips
and numbers to see if there's

805
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,080
anything else that's telling me
as far as like no demographics

806
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,640
where people are listening,
things of that nature.

807
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,400
But for me, my completion rate
is probably even more than

808
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,120
download numbers.
My completion rate is what I as

809
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,640
a storyteller, I'm looking at
the most because I need to

810
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,240
understand, are you dropping off
at 50%?

811
00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:55,960
OK, let's see what's happening
at 50%.

812
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,080
That's, you know, is the story
dragging on too long?

813
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,200
OK, let's fix that next time.
But also at the same time, one

814
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,360
of the things I've also noticed
is that like in the initial

815
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,400
stage, the completion rate is
not as high, but over time for

816
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,720
that same episode, it will get
higher.

817
00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:15,240
That's simply because sometimes
what we're talking about may be

818
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:16,920
kind of heavy.
Right.

819
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,400
You know, if I'm talking about
suicide for to be written, not

820
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,680
everybody's going to just want
to jump in like, oh, I can't

821
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,240
wait for the next one, right?
And I don't mean to be flippant

822
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:29,680
about suicide, but I'm making
the point about how sometimes

823
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,040
the topic can be so heavy, I I
need to kind of tone it down so

824
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,480
that completion rate sometimes
will go up higher later on.

825
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,880
And sometimes I just have to
just let it play out a little.

826
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,360
Bit and Dominic, I like what you
said about downloads because I

827
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,000
think we all get so hyper
focused on the number of

828
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,520
downloads.
But what you said was that

829
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,600
you're more focused on the
completion rate.

830
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,400
And I think all of us that is a
key take away focus on the

831
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,560
completion rate because if you
just chase after the downloads,

832
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,200
to me that doesn't mean a whole.
Lot, yeah.

833
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,360
And sponsors kind of worry about
that completion rate too.

834
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,320
By the way, just as the money
guy, I appreciate you.

835
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,360
Appreciate that.
Absolutely, Dominic.

836
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,800
Thank you.
All right, so I have a question.

837
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,360
We can do clip 6, which is a
little bit of a spoiler.

838
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,280
Anybody wants a spoiler?
Or we can skip clip 6 and we can

839
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,120
go straight to the things that
we can take away from this and

840
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,400
to ourselves.
But before we do that, I just

841
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,680
want to remind you with Clip 5,
all the unseen things that in

842
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,440
your podcast, they may have a
deeper impact than you realize.

843
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,440
So pay attention to all those
details.

844
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,400
But who wants to skip?
Who wants to go and listen to

845
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,320
Eclipse Sick?
I think we should listen to it,

846
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,360
Jonathan.
All right, there's a spoiler in

847
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,320
there, but this is really where
the sound stops supporting the

848
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,440
story and actually controls the
story.

849
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,400
So it's really controlling the
emotional experience here.

850
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,560
And up until now, we've seen how
the sound builds the energy and

851
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,840
creates the tension.
But this is where it goes a step

852
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,840
further.
And as we lead up to the final

853
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:54,520
encounter between Burn, Hamilton
and Burr goes to fire his gun

854
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:59,480
and we stop time, the gunshot is
actually reversed and choked so

855
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,480
that we get the sense that we've
stopped that bullet.

856
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:05,240
And all the staging supports
that idea.

857
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:08,880
We see the characters freeze.
We see one of our ensemble

858
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,080
members, who's actually referred
to as the bullet, sort of pinch

859
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,720
the air as though she's slowed
the bullet down as it crosses

860
00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:17,480
the stage and is heading towards
Hamilton.

861
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,560
The ensemble dances the path of
the bullet as Hamilton begins

862
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,120
his final soliloquy, which is
one of the only moments in the

863
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,960
show that there is no music.
I imagine death so much.

864
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,840
It feels more like a memory.
Is this where it gets me on my

865
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,760
feet?
Several feet ahead of me, I see

866
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,080
it coming.
Do I run or fire my gun or let

867
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,520
it be?
There is no beat, no melody.

868
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,360
The only sound you hear is the
sound of wind, which again is

869
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,680
produced from the orchestration.
And we take that sound and

870
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,000
actually bring it into the room
as Hamilton turns and talks,

871
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,920
basically as he sees his life
flash before his eyes.

872
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,720
I love take your time.
I'll see you on the other side

873
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:57,440
When we release time.
We repeat the last phrase.

874
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,520
He aims his pistol at the the
sky or yells weight, and then we

875
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,960
have the final gunshot, which
reverberates through the

876
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,960
theater.
The sky.

877
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,720
So in that we feel that shift,
we feel everything building.

878
00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:13,720
Your attention is narrowing and
I bet you your body even tensed

879
00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:16,080
up a little bit.
And then suddenly the gunshot

880
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,800
and it all kind of drops out.
That's not sound design, that's

881
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,560
control.
They didn't make the dual

882
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,760
dramatic.
They actually designed how long

883
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,280
it lasted in your mind.
They designed where your

884
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,840
attention would go and when you
would hold your breath.

885
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,720
And that's why that moment stays
with you.

886
00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:39,120
So here's the thing most people
miss, and then I'll open up for

887
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,600
questions.
Every piece of content you

888
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,400
create has moments like this.
Moments where attention eaks,

889
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,120
moments where emotion could
land, Moments when somebody

890
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,600
decides do I care about this or
do I scroll.

891
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,960
And most people leave those
moments U to chance and don't

892
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,560
actually capitalize on the
opportunities they're they're

893
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,120
creating for themselves and
their content.

894
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:00,920
So there we go.
Comment or question?

895
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,160
I'll just add to what Jonathan
was saying.

896
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:08,160
Like honestly, all the work
behind the scenes, all the work

897
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:12,240
leading up to that moment, it's
like you're probably feeling it

898
00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:15,400
now and you probably like
Jonathan was saying it's a

899
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,760
spoiler, but a great story.
With all those in mind, it's

900
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,480
still going to be great even if
you go back and watch Hamilton

901
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,080
and listen to it now, right?
But again, all that

902
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,760
intentionality leading up to
that moment, all of that, when

903
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,320
it comes to your podcast, you
could be very intentional about

904
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:32,680
this.
And I agree with Jonathan when

905
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,040
he says all podcasts have these
moments.

906
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,640
It's just a matter of how are
you looking at it when you're

907
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,920
creating it or when you're going
through the pre interview or

908
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,600
something like that, right?
But no, it's a very important

909
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,560
point that I think we should
definitely kind of take away

910
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,720
from.
One other thing, it's not really

911
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:51,920
a spoiler, Jonathan.
He says it in the first song,

912
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,600
but that's not the that's not
the point.

913
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,000
The take away from this scene
that I love is silence is

914
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,800
golden.
And I don't mean silence is

915
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,600
golden in the way we normally
think.

916
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:05,160
Silence is golden in this sense.
It sets the stage.

917
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,560
It gives you a reason.
You've been going 100 miles an

918
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:13,000
hour and then all of a sudden
you stop and you have to focus.

919
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,800
And that's what the sound, or in
this case the lack of sound

920
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,880
does.
And I think what as podcasters

921
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:25,520
we need to do is mimic that when
we need to because we're so

922
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,280
podcasters are people that speak
like we do.

923
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,240
We want to get it all out.
And sometimes you got to hit the

924
00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:34,800
brakes and listen, you know, you
have the two ears and one mouth.

925
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,440
And I always say that and I need
to do that more than I'm just as

926
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,760
much as anyone else.
But having those pregnant

927
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,520
pauses, having that moment where
that bullet, when you see that

928
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,400
scene, it recaps the whole
entire show in that moment.

929
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,760
And I think that's something
that we can take away from.

930
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,240
It's a great moment.
Someone might favorite scenes,

931
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:56,840
but in terms of the importance
of it, it's great.

932
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,920
And that's why as podcasters, we
need to think about that at the

933
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,600
end of our show or the end of
our episode.

934
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,120
How do we want to recap it?
And will it be impactful?

935
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,960
Because I know people listen to
podcasts all the time and

936
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:11,960
they're not actually listening
to him and they might only

937
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,160
listen to like 10 minutes here
or there.

938
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,760
This is one way that you can
really get those valuable 10

939
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,120
minutes.
I think that's a really good

940
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:19,760
point, Alex.
It's something I've been working

941
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,000
with my speaking coach.
She said to me a couple of

942
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,360
months ago, she says you need to
let things land.

943
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,920
And that is something that is
not common for me.

944
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,200
Like it took a lot of practice,
it took a lot of repetitions to

945
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,360
get to that point because she
said to me, she goes, you have

946
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,400
good points, she said, but you
don't let them land here.

947
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,520
You're already moving on to the
next thing.

948
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,600
And I'm still trying to figure
out what she said three things

949
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,800
ago.
So, Alex, I think that's a great

950
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,160
observation.
Yeah, the pregnant pause is a

951
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,640
very powerful tool that you can
use, right?

952
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,280
Like even when have the pause
and you have that little bit of

953
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,920
the piece of the music ending,
it allows for the audience to

954
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,960
kind of sit with what you just
said to kind of really take in.

955
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,440
And I didn't really or didn't
think of it that way.

956
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,040
And if I could just geek out on
the sound design really quickly

957
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,960
at that end where, you know, the
time stops and there's that

958
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,280
reverb and his voice and it's
almost like he's falling into

959
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,680
this abyss of where he's
heading.

960
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,400
And then at the end where they
take out the reverb and it's

961
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:18,040
just this very intimate sounding
moment right before everything

962
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,000
happened.
It's just brilliant work.

963
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,800
And I think, again, like
Jonathan was saying, I mean, you

964
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:24,640
know, it really is kind of a
control.

965
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:29,000
I'm guiding you on this journey.
I'm steering you into where I

966
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,600
want you to land because this is
the kind of the emotion I want

967
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,600
you to feel.
So it's just brilliant work.

968
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:36,360
Ralph, I think Nikki had a
question.

969
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:37,880
Go ahead, Nikki.
I'm sorry I didn't see you.

970
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,240
I apologize.
To say how.

971
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:42,560
Valuable.
This discussion really has been

972
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,200
because I took a class one time
in college and it was all about

973
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,160
literature and movie analysis
and how you studied the words

974
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,160
and the language and the symbols
in the literature.

975
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,520
But you also did the same thing
in movies.

976
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:59,200
And so I had developed an
appreciation for the depth of.

977
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:03,120
Thought and the detail
orientedness of writers and of

978
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:04,080
movie.
Producers.

979
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,720
From that lens, however, I
hadn't really done it.

980
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:11,640
For podcasting, probably because
I I was so consumed with my own

981
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,240
and like you said, Ralph, just
getting the content out there,

982
00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:16,680
getting the repetition out
there, which there's nothing

983
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,600
wrong with that, but this
conversation really has landed.

984
00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:23,200
As you say, landed on me in a
very different way and I.

985
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,440
Hope to be able to.
Incorporate the mindset of

986
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,960
Dominic, you know, being very
thoughtful and intentional about

987
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,800
things, but also just kind of
starting small for my own sake

988
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,480
so that I don't completely go
crazy and overboard and all of

989
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,160
that.
So I think it's just a great

990
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,080
discussion that we've had today
and I'm definitely going to be

991
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,360
implementing the the thoughts on
the small scale as of right now

992
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,120
and then just kind of grow as I
build and I'm really going to

993
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,080
start studying these things like
I did back in college and I

994
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:49,640
think it's really going to help.
Thank you, Nikki.

995
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:51,360
I think that's a great
observation.

996
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,200
And I was just going to say to
Dominic what you were saying

997
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,800
about controlling the emotion.
I think we all need to realize

998
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,000
that we have that control in our
podcast.

999
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,760
If we want people to feel
something, we can make them feel

1000
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,720
that.
We just have to figure out the

1001
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:10,320
way to, you know, engineer it to
way to manipulate it so that

1002
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,640
they actually do feel that thing
did.

1003
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,440
You just use the word
manipulate.

1004
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,240
I did.
So what you're really saying is

1005
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:18,280
we need to manipulate our
audiences a little bit.

1006
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,080
Jonathan, I'm going to dig in
there for a second.

1007
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,240
I don't think manipulation is a
bad thing, but.

1008
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:23,920
Go ahead.
Oh, I don't think that's a

1009
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,440
brilliant thing.
I think that is the goal is to

1010
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,040
manipulate that into like
Dominic said, to hanging in

1011
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,440
there, the completion rate being
greater and really taking them

1012
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,000
on a journey.
So I, I love the term actually,

1013
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,160
I think the word manipulation is
perfect.

1014
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,200
It's no different than an
advertiser and advertisers

1015
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,680
trying to manipulate you into
buying their product.

1016
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:44,160
Well, if you're a podcaster,
you're trying to manipulate the

1017
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,160
audience into listening to your
product.

1018
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,520
So, Jonathan, I say, hey, I'll
give you a standing ovation for

1019
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,760
you so that.
All right, well do we want to

1020
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,440
take, I have like 3 takeaways
for you, things that you can try

1021
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,680
for your podcast.
One of them is to stop posting

1022
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,520
and start designing.
Start designing the experience

1023
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,840
you want your audience to have.
Don't just put your podcast out

1024
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,720
and you know, have it be there.
Most people create content by

1025
00:50:07,720 --> 00:50:10,760
saying the thing that they want
to say, explaining it and then

1026
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:12,560
ending and that's it.
That's all they do.

1027
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,960
That's flat, that's linear,
which remember, we don't have to

1028
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,480
create linear podcasts and it's
forgettable.

1029
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,760
Try doing something like
figuring out where your your

1030
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,920
story builds.
Where does it slow down?

1031
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,720
Where do you want it to hit?
Because every piece of content

1032
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:29,040
needs a moment.
It needs to have a moment.

1033
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:33,160
So that's the first take away.
Next is to build tension before

1034
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,400
delivering the value.
So most people do hook and and

1035
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,320
then immediately explain.
So like Dominic was saying, he

1036
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,520
hooks them at the beginning of
their, you know, the 1st 90

1037
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,680
seconds.
But then he doesn't immediately

1038
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,800
explain everything that you need
to know because then there's not

1039
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,280
going to be any retention.
There's not going to be any

1040
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,040
reason for them to actually
listen.

1041
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,520
So introduce an idea, build
curiosity, layer out the

1042
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,760
content, and then reveal what
you need to reveal that delays

1043
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,920
and creates actual engagement so
you don't have to rush it.

1044
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,960
And then the third and last one
is to make the invisible

1045
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,360
visible.
That's the entire DNA of 20,000

1046
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,360
Hertz.
It takes something that you

1047
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,040
don't normally notice and it
makes it so understandable and

1048
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,160
so clear that you will never not
see it again.

1049
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,920
You will hear my shot and you
will always be able to see those

1050
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,640
layers and uncover them.
So do those sort of things with

1051
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:25,920
your content.
You can create content that

1052
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,760
breaks down a common mistake,
that shows what's actually

1053
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,960
happening, that explains why
something feels a certain way.

1054
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,080
And that's authority content.
That's content that makes you

1055
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:37,960
the expert and the people the
person that people want to

1056
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,240
listen to so.
There you go, Jonathan, I just

1057
00:51:40,240 --> 00:51:43,080
want to say thank you for
another great obsession worthy

1058
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,400
podcast.
You do a fantastic job with

1059
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:46,880
these.
You bring me into something I

1060
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,520
wouldn't have otherwise done.
So thank you, Jonathan.

1061
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,880
I appreciate all the work you
put into doing the clips and,

1062
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,320
and if you don't know this
behind the scenes, Jonathan does

1063
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:56,400
a fantastic job of putting this
together.

1064
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,520
I think his slide presentation
today was about 50 slides.

1065
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:01,760
So trust me, there's a lot of
work that goes into this,

1066
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:03,080
Jonathan.
So great work.

1067
00:52:03,240 --> 00:52:05,000
And we're going to end it there.
I want to invite everybody to

1068
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,040
join us again tomorrow.
Tomorrow we're going to have a

1069
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,760
mail bag section.
So until tomorrow, you all have

1070
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:10,600
a great day today.