481. Podcasting Shake-Up: Ads, Burnout & Competition

0:04 Good morning podcasting Morning Chat. Today is Wednesday, March 25th, 2026, and today it's our news and comment episode and we're getting into why advertisers are spending more on podcasts, why some long time creators are stepping away from podcasting, and whether podcasters are thinking about competition all wrong. So if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, bottom left hand side of the screen and share it. However, Clubhouse lets you. And if you're catching us via podcast, YouTube, LinkedIn, please share this with a fellow podcaster. And now give us 30 seconds and we'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here.

0:51 The Podcasting Morning Chat is powered by Ironic Media, helping podcasters launch, Polish and grow great shows, and by Content Creators Accountant, helping creators build real business behind their content. Good morning again, podcasting, Morning Chat. Thank you so much for being here. I am your host, Mark Ronik, and today is a little different for me anyway, may not be totally different for you, but a little different because I am traveling. I'm at my parents.

1:36 I think the last time I was recording regularly from my parents place was back in the fall of 2024. That was right after the hurricane, Hurricane Helene came through and we were in between homes as it was like whether the hurricane came or not, we were in between homes and then the hurricane came and ruined our plan. So we had to audible and we came back to Maryland and stayed with our family for a couple months until we could find a place back home in Asheville or that area. So yeah, this is the first time I've been here in a while. I'm using some new equipment.

2:21 I'm using the Zoom pod tracked P4 next and it seems to be working fine. But the problem is, well, I'm not going to bore you with all the details, but it seems that running Club deck on my computer and Riverside and running it all through this contraption here, it's something some wires are crossed. So we're trying to make this work coming through our to our Clubhouse audience via Ralph, who's got us all plugged in. So I can't even tell you who's here with me other than I know Ralph Estep is on camera with me and same with Matt Bliss. I also happen to know that Dr. is on stage here on Clubhouse, but I can't see it.

3:04 So Ralph, you're going to have to help me today navigate. Absolutely. And just want to confirm everybody, we also are live streaming. So if you want to go find us at Podcasting Morning chat.com/live. It's working again today. But also joining us today, we've got Jonathan, Sid and BC. So Mark and you look fantastic on that camera, man. It looks great today. Really interesting that you're. Absolutely. It's very crystal clear that the iPhone camera does a nice job. Yeah, see, I was just going to say that's so interesting because I normally use the Elgato Facecam Pro. I use that that when I'm at my studio and today I'm using the iPhone 17 Pro Max. Interesting, Ralph, that you think you're noticing.

3:46 It's more clear it's. Much clearer, Mark, It's absolutely much clearer. That's been my I I'm not a big fan of the face cams. I think the the resolution is not great. But anyway, no, I just, you look great, sound great, and we're going to have a great show today. That sounds good to me, yes. And it is Newsday today, so we will dig into that. First, let me share a little bit with you. What's some things going on in our world? So first, oh, I had to share this with you on a recent news and comment episode that we did. We discussed the story that talked about the strategy of including a tagline into your keywords and like a tagline. Let me say that again, tagline using keywords to your title and author field, right?

4:31 So for example, you go to Apple podcast, it has the name of your podcast. It has your name underneath it. The idea of the strategy was to add some keywords. For example, I might put in podcast consultant next to my name, right? So the reason why I'm sharing this with you is because that article that we discussed had my friend, business partner over at Empowered Podcasting, Jason Zircon. He texted me, he heard us talking about it and texted me yesterday and he said quote I owe you guys on PMCI took your advice about putting a keyword in my author tag last week. I checked today and my show is finally ranking in Apple for podcasting.

5:18 I have to believe it was a collective effort of everything I've been doing because Jason's been doing a lot of tweaking and re strategizing his whole podcast, he said. But that tip had tons of what helped me tons as well. So very cool to hear. Pardon me. Very cool to hear that paid off. And we had somebody actually test it. It has inspired me to actually test that as well. So more to come over there. Also in regard to yesterday's episode, I know I missed it. Thank you all for holding down the Fort. Ralph. Thank you for leading the charge. Yesterday's episode on guests requesting to take an episode down.

5:59 I posted about it on LinkedIn after after I listened to the episode and I tagged Gordon Firemark. Gordon Firemark known as the podcast lawyer. He said he commented on it and said, so here's my quick take podcaster. The podcaster invested resources, time, energy, attention, money and a slot in the RSS feed so the guests demand actually has a dollar value in the loss the podcaster suffers without a release. Consent is what's this word easy? What is this? OK, I'm embarrassed. REVOCABLE. Revocable.

6:41 Revocable. I've never used that word in my life, but I'll go on. But I'd say it's appropriate to request compensation for taking the episode down. Even without a formal release. There are still some contractual, legal, real reliance based principles involved here. So I never thought of that from that side of things, that the guest has some responsibility on their shoulders too. It's important for them, you know, if they're going to change what they want done after the podcast is podcaster has invested so much time, money and effort. Yeah, there could be a financial penalty involved in that. And maybe even, although Gordon didn't say it, maybe that's something you even want to include in the consent form. That's what I was going to say.

7:31 And I think we also have to go back to part of the discussion was goodwill with your guests though, too. And you do you want to get into a situation where we're throwing lawsuits against each other? But no, I think Gordon did a great job with that. So and Mark, if you need me to run any other sound effects, just let me know. I got them all here. Cute. I'm ready to go my friend. Awesome. You have the news music too. I do. OK, awesome. Not yet, because I got one more thing Dr. You told me yesterday you actually have a retraction about a story we covered recently. That's right. And it involves Gordon, the podcast lawyer. OK. So do you remember a couple weeks ago when we were talking about podcasting on Netflix and Hulu and all of these streaming services? And by the way, I have gone to Netflix since then and I cannot find the podcasts anywhere on Netflix. So I don't know where they are.

8:23 Anyway, I digress. So anyway, I was talking about how well, now FCC is going to get their finger in the pie basically because it's now, you know, on the airwaves. I am going to do a retraction to that because I have since talked to Gordon and I asked him about this and it's not true. FCC would not have a finger in the pie. That kind of sounds kind of dirty to me. I'm sorry. That wouldn't would not be involved. And the difference is broadcasting, which is your standard, ABCNBCCBS and Fox, that's your standard broadcast as opposed to streaming.

9:06 And so FCC has nothing to do with streaming. But as soon as they move into broadcast, and who knows the way things are going now, my gosh, the only thing that is up in the air, because I asked him about this as well, is the unions, AFTRA, SAG, stuff like that, that he says, oh, that's an interesting concept. He says I might have to do an episode on the unions. So that's still up in the air. But the FCC would have nothing to do with podcasts going into the streaming platforms. And I feel better about myself. Yeah. Well, thank you for doing your due diligence and following up and then bringing that here. Appreciate that, Dr. Yeah. I'm off to the kitchen.

9:48 Oh yes, that's right yes, because we've started late. My timing is all off now because we had so much trouble setting up and by the way, if you aren't watching on the video stream, you can see where I'm actually sleeping at night here I'm in the actual room that I'm the guest room of my parents place. So yes, there is a bed behind me and yes it. Looks like a really cozy spot. Your parents have a great spot there for you. It's a nice condo yes, we like being here and fun fact for those who may not remember or didn't know this is my parents live in this condo literally the condo right next door like the door next door to theirs is owned by my in laws. My wife's parents are right next door. They and this is not like a retirement community. It's just a random and wonderful welcomed coincidence that they live next door to each other.

10:41 This is a couple years after few years after we got married and my parents happened to be looking around for a place to stay and this place happened to pop up. When they went to go look at it. They plug in the address and they're like, wait a minute, that's very familiar. And they looked again and yes, they live now next door to my in laws, which is wonderful for us when we're traveling. We don't have to pick and choose, choose which parents to go see because we can literally just get up off the couch and go next door. So anyway, all right, Ralph, queue the music, please. News, music. Thank you. We are going to dive in and I will say Ralph and saw a request from Sid outside of clubhouse to make sure everybody's a moderator.

11:26 And I believe I have accomplished that. Awesome, very cool. OK, so first I like to start things off with some podcast data. And over the last week 564,598 podcasts published at least one new episode, which is up very slightly .3% from the previous week. Over the last 30 days, almost 2 point 5 million podcasts published at least one new episode, which is up 2 1/2% from the last month. And just a little fun fact for you, on average last month there was a new podcast that published every one second based on those numbers. So every second there was a new podcast that was published over the last month.

12:15 OK, Dr. You're going to do the top five and I don't know that Ralph has the timpani or not, and if he doesn't, we'll just have to wing it. Have access to the rundown. You don't. I don't have access. To the IT says you're in there. I'm in the kitchen right now. Okay, okay, got it. Sorry, that was the key component I didn't catch. All right, so we will go back to Dr. and instead, Ralph, give me the music again. Let's go into some events around the world of podcasting. First, there's a new award that's been the well that's going to be available to you if you are so inclined. It's for podcasters and pod news reported on this just recently.

12:55 The MPN Awards run by the Marketing Podcast Network are open to any podcast in the marketing Podcast world. Nominations close April 30th and if you are interested in fit that criteria or want to make sure you do, just go to marketingpodcasts.net. And if you want to be a little more specific, go slash articles and you'll find it's probably it is the most recent article they have in that section of their website. So check that out. Also military Creator Con that's coming up April 16th through the 18th. It's happening in Arlington, TX not too far away from Sid, who is the guy who reminded me about this event. So thank you, Sid.

13:41 Military Creator Con is a conference built for military connected creators, right? So they are military service people that are now either content creators, entrepreneurs, storytellers and innovators. Like I said, it's happening on April 16th and it's designed to bring together service members, veterans, spouses, retirees and supporters for workshops and panels, conversations, networking, etcetera, all around around creativity, media, business and impact. The event positions itself as a space where military creators can grow, connect and build meaningful communities together. I believe their first events were born out of Podfest.

14:23 Podfest has a thing where they actually work with other smaller conventions and because they get so much space at these convention centers and so they allow other creator conventions to have these sub conventions going on under the Podfest name. So that's how now they got started, but now I guess they're kind of growing up and they are doing it on their own in Arlington, TX. And again, thanks to Sid for this because he had also reminded me that we have several people in the community that are going to be there and speaking. Jinnade Ahmed, who I know a lot of you know, and hear from here regularly, Sean Douglas, who I talk about, he was my coach for public speaking when I was preparing for Pod Fest.

15:05 He's also Simona Costantini's main squeeze and Shay Spark and Adam Bird, also EPC members. They are all listed on the events speaker page, which is always cool to see. And also want to remind you, a podcaster visibility meet up is happening tomorrow, Thursday the 26th here in the DC area where I am currently located. And that's because I'm hosting it. And this is brought to you by Empowered Podcasting. It's also brought to you by Women Getting Visible. That is an organization led by my friend Christina Vitovich. We together are hosting this at 5:30 PM Eastern Time at Pinstripes in Northern Bethesda.

15:48 It is free to attend. It's a networking event. Come join and meet some DC area creators while you're there. And a quick note before we get to DRS top list, Empowered Podcasting 3. You know it's coming August 21st through the 23rd in Charlotte. More specifically we are looking for speakers. So if you'd like to be a speaker at the Empowered Podcasting event, go to empoweredpodcasting.com/speakers and apply today. It's a quick and easy form. All we ask is if you can try to write it yourself instead of AI or at least do a good job of cleaning it up. Because man, I can tell you, as much as I love AI, we get a lot of applications where people just say, hey, AI make this for us and it spits it out.

16:35 It looks pretty, it's organized, but it's so obvious that it's AI written. And for some reason that is a big turn off to me. And I say for some reason because like I said, I'm a huge fan of AI, but I don't like it when people just copy paste and don't put it. They don't inject themselves into it at all. And that's not the kind of speaker that I'm looking for. So with that, he. Wanted to make a comment. 1st, I just wanted to say I'm super excited about tomorrow. I think I'll be there. I'm going to do my very best to, to come. And then the other thing about the stuff that you were talking about, it's interesting because one of the guests that I had on my, on my podcast, he said, he goes, you're like a breath of fresh air. I said, what do you mean? And he said, well, I have been contacted by people who have been, you know, putting their pitch, you know, they're, they're pitching their podcast to him and they're saying, Hey, we want you to be on our show.

17:24 And when he first got started with the process, he was looking these pitches and he was like, wow, like people are really putting a lot of effort into this. These pitches are so good. And then he goes on the show and he does a little bit of research on the host and the show and he realizes that they have like 3 followers and he's like, Oh my God. And then he started to realize that the even some of the podcast hosts were creating these great pitches. I say that in quotation marks using AI, but they didn't actually have the substance to to follow it up. And he didn't really appreciate that dishonesty because it made them sound like more than what they actually were. And there's nothing wrong with having three followers or just starting out. But being honest about that and saying, hey, like I'm a high school student or I'm this and I'm that and I'm looking for guests to come on my show and just being real about it is it's going to be a lot more well received than generating something with AI that you know is presents presents you in a light that's not. Yeah, thank you, Nikki.

18:19 Great call there. And I am so excited that you're working it out and you're going to be there. I know it. I kind of felt like it was a maybe when I last heard from you and it's sounding much more confident now. So yeah, I can't wait to see you and I hope you're a hugger because I am. I'll probably want to give you a big hug, so hopefully that that'll be cool with you. If not, handshake, totally fine. All right, let's see Ralph hit the music, please. I'll probably want to edit out every time I say hit the music. It'll probably get a little annoying after time after a while, but anyway, Dr. Brother, we're making it work. We are, and I appreciate your help, Dr. Let's hear your top five. Yeah, excuse me, I've got some chart. News 5's top five this week is number 5 Crime junkie #4 The Shawn Ryan show #3 this past weekend with Theo Von Timpani. Oh yeah, Ralph hit the Timpani.

19:13 I don't have the timpani but I'll do my best. Boom. #2 is the Tucker Carlson show and the number one is of course, Joe Rogan Experience. Thank you, Dr. And then are, do you have a random chart? Oh hey, well, we have some applause. That'll work. OK, the random chart of the week is all about food. Food. Glorious food. OK so #5 is Christopher Kimball's Milk Streak radio #4 is Bobby on the beat? Which I gotta say I think that he is upping his game when it comes to promoting on socials because his shorts, his video shorts are all of a sudden hitting my feet. Let's see #3 is walk and talk podcast that has been on this chart for a while now #2.

20:10 The the best 5 minute wine podcast. Sorry, this writing is very small and #1 and I've never read this before, but it's Ruthie's table four, OK, that is the top five in the food category. Thank you Dr. Speaking of food category, if you remember last week, I think it was the news or maybe it was Friday's show, I can't remember. Sid had mentioned my stepson who's become a quite a content creator on Instagram and TikTok making cooking videos and yeah, no, no update. I still can't tell you the big secret because he signed an NDA but something is cooking with him and content creation and a very large content creator.

20:54 But he did post a new video. So check out Matthew B Cooks on Instagram and TikTok if you want to follow his journey along and check out some of his new content. Really proud of him. And yeah, the I can't wait to tell you because it's absolutely mind blowing when you hear this whole story. I just can't tell you yet. He would kill me. And happy belated birthday to him. It was his birthday yesterday. All right, let's keep things moving now. Ralph, do you have your own Jingle? You're muted, by the way. I do. Are you ready? Yes, quick tip, smart move, content creators. Business. Bite and today's content creators business Bite is brought to you by the guy who just played the music, Ralph Estep Junior of Content creatorsaccountant.com.

21:45 Ralph is a licensed accountant and also my accountant with over 30 years of experience. And at contentcreatorsaccountant.com, he helps creators stop guessing about taxes and money, turning financial chaos into clarity. If you want hear more of Ralph and his expertise, check out Monday's show. Think that was 479, I believe was the number, but check out Monday's show for our first edition of Money Monday. With that, Ralph, what do you got for us today? All right. Well, let me give you a number that should change how you think about your podcast this morning. Podcast advertising is growing, but advertisers are still under investing. And that gap, well, that's your opportunity.

22:25 According to a recent report highlighted by Pod News, podcast advertising continues to grow, but brands are still not spending what the data says they should. Let's talk about why that is. Because they don't fully understand the return on investment. Here's the problem. Here's what it means for a creator. It's not that your podcast isn't valuable. It's that the value isn't being clearly communicated to the advertisers. Advertisers don't pay for downloads. They pay for outcomes. They pay for conversions. They pay for trust, and they pay for your audience to behave a certain way. And most podcasters, they can't show that information. So that's what I want you to think differently today because this is not a marketing problem. This is a measurement problem. So here's the things you do. If you don't know what your audience does, how they respond, what actions they take, then what happens is your show becomes a nice to have instead of a business asset.

23:14 So here's your move for today. Start building what I call your creator revenue story. So what are we going to focus on for a second? That means track where your listeners go. What are they doing? Use unique links or codes. We've talked about that on the show using URL and tracky links and squishy links and all those sort of things and measure conversions, even the small ones, because that's what advertisers care about. Because here, when you can say, hey, this episode drove 47 clicks and 12 sales, you're not asking for a sponsorship at that point, you're presenting an investment opportunity. So as I close this out, podcast advertising is growing, but the creators who win are the ones who can prove they drive results. So don't just create content, build a system that shows what your content is worth.

23:55 I'm Ralph Estep Junior, I am the content creators accountant and this has been your weekly business bike. Thank you, Ralph. Appreciate that. All right. So I guess what we should do here is hit the music, Ralph. And I know Dr. has well she tried to join us on camera. I was just going to ask her to mute because I noticed I could hear us coming through in the background but the weird. Thing is that I tried to mute and as you know I'm pretty fast on that and it would not let me mute. All right, well, there you go. It's that kind of morning here at the podcasting morning chat.

24:36 And like Rob said, we're making it work. So I'm gonna. We're making lemonade today, dude, we are making some serious lemonade today. We are, and of course though, go check us out on the video where everything looks great at least. All right, so let's get into some news bites first. Pod News is reporting that Spotify has cut jobs in its podcast division, with a report claiming 15 employees, or about 3% of the team, were affected. The cuts are said to involve both The Ringer and Spotify Studios, though Spotify has not confirmed those details. Among those reportedly impacted are the Ringers special projects LED. Andrew and I can't pronounce his last name. Grudadaro I believe is how you pronounce it. And writer Miles Surrey and the Ringers Show, New York, NY with wow, everybody's got a last name here with John Jastre, Miss Jastre Misky butchered.

25:38 So sorry. John is also expected to be cancelled. Pod News is also saying it's been hearing steady industry chatter about even bigger possibilities and bigger possible changes tied to Spotify's podcasting tools, including talk of revenue, programs or brands potentially shutting down. But Spotify is pushing back hard and telling Pod News those rumors are simply not true. I'm sure we'll hear more in the weeks ahead of what's going on over at Spotify, but I do know we've talked about it before. So a few years ago, post pandemic, we know Spotify invested a lot of money into their podcasting division. And maybe now that's coming back to bite them. We'll find out more in the weeks ahead. Also, here's let me get into what's new with the video experience over at Apple Podcasts. I know we've talked a lot about that lately. It looks like it's tied to iOS 26.4. As matter of fact it is because I saw it was rolling out yesterday when I wrote this part of the news. It hadn't officially come out yet, at least on my phone, but since then 26.4 has released and what's interesting is that in the little update, Apple doesn't seem to be pushing the fact that video is there now as part of

27:13 Apple Podcasts. But there. If you do go to Apple Podcasts now, once you get the update, you'll see a new splash screen when you launch it that puts the video feature front and center. So you'll probably at first not find a ton of videos using this new HLS delivery system that Apple has rolled out, but I'm sure you'll find some and I'm sure they'll probably push some of those available over on that app. So check that out if you're an Apple user, not like Nick and Dr. but I know several other of the others of you do use an Apple device because my analytics tell me you do. So go check that out.

27:56 Should be cool to see and very curious. I still have no idea. Should say I have no experience yet actually uploading video to Apple so I can't report on that experience yet. But more to come. Mark, I want to interject something. Is anyone else getting frustrated with the old is the wrong word to use? The seasoned podcasters who keep saying Apple's been doing video for years, stop saying it. It's driving me crazy. Clearly this we're living in a new season. Let's embrace the new season. And I'm sick and tired. Like I'm not kind of call them out in a negative way. But listen, this is new, this is cool, this is exciting. Let's live in this reality a little bit. And I see Matthew wanted to say something too. Yeah.

28:41 I literally, if you saw me, if you're watching the video appearing off screen, I literally responded to a LinkedIn post just then. Yeah, with two people that someone wrote. No, video is not new to Apple Podcasts. It came out in 2005 and someone commented hashtag truth. And I was like, what does that add to the discussion? It's like a history lesson. Yes, there is video. There was RSS. If you're not talking about the alternative enclosures and advocating for certain areas of RSS to be used instead of HLS, then it's not a relevant chat. I don't think people will just get triggered by the marketing from Apple and other places saying new video to Apple and then they have to show their RSS zealotry and kind of show that they've been in the system for a while. But everyone's doing it but the ones that do. Yeah, you just hit the nail on the head. I think it's a just a giant flex. I think it's these old schoolers, no offense, because there's some of them that I have a lot of love and respect for. Some of them maybe not, but there are several that I do. And I think it's just them trying to say, I knew this already and I knew that this was available years ago. But you're right, Matt, it doesn't add at all to the conversation.

29:52 It's like I said, all it comes off as to me is a flex and it's somebody trying to be a know it all right. It is new to most people. Even the even though it's been available for years, nobody was using it. No one knew how to use it. It didn't matter. Now there's it's now, maybe now it's going to be something more used, but we'll learn more once we actually get to interact with this feature and see if it's worthwhile. I think Alex wanted to say something. Yeah, I was going to say clearly it was doing a great job because nobody knew about it, even though it was there. So at the end of the day, who cares? I mean, I'm with Matt. It's like people just want to be the smartest person in the room, and they just got to get over themselves. But that's social media these days. Thank you, Alex.

30:37 Yeah. Matt, did you want to keep add on to this? Yeah, just a quick comment that that Nikki's added into the chat talking about how it's the same with AI. People say I love AI, it's brand new, but it's been around for ages. We've been using AI for everything. That's actually one of the converse cases where it will eventually become important to know the difference between machine learning, algorithmic computing with regards to machine learning and LLMS in the context of artificial intelligence. I think there is some utility to that, but it's just not the same with this chat I don't think. It's no, no thank you, Matt, and good timing.

31:18 Thank you, Ralph. I was just about to ask you to hit the music and Dr. See, we're, we're on the same wavelength mark, we are definitely we're connecting. To we are, we are connecting today. Ralph, good thing that you just took on the role of executive producer with me. That's a good sign. All right, let's go to Dr. with a feel good story of the week. Hey, we can use a feel good story this week, right? Okay, so student podcasters are putting the grown-ups to Shane Everyone, an award-winning student podcast in the Northwest Arkansas, is getting attention for using its platform to connect veterans with organizations built to support them. The show is called Tiger Talk, and it's produced by 4th and 5th grade E students at the John Tyson Elementary School of Innovation in Springdale.

32:10 Let's see, it's spending Season 7 focused on Heroes Serve Heroes. That's the name of the series. Heroes Serve Heroes, a series built around local groups that help veterans navigate community healing and support. Recent episodes spotlight organizations like Heroes on the Water, where veterans, first responders and families can take part in free therapeutic kayaking fishing events. Now, some of the highlighted points are the shows created by elementary school students, not college media majors or seasoned broadcasters. One of the featured groups, the Heroes on the Water, says all of its events are free and include gear, bait, life jackets and lunch.

32:53 The student team has also covered groups including the VFW, American Legion, military service, sisters, Beau's Blessings and Saint Francis. House and Tiger Talk was nominated for four of the 2025 Ark Cat ARKAST Ark Cast awards, including best educational podcast and best Kids and Family podcast. Oh that is so awesome. Thank you, Dr. Yeah, thank you for a feel good story. I'd love to incorporate more feel good stories into the Wednesday news edition. Thank you for that, Dr. Michael Juliet came on stage and wants to make a comment.

33:35 I was going to say I could hear that somebody came up on stage, but I couldn't see it because I am. Yeah, no, not using Clubhouse today. Go ahead, Janae. Good morning. Good morning all, this is so cool. The feel good story is really in line with what I just received yesterday. So New York Times has a thing open for student podcasters. So if you're aged, I'm, I'm trying to look for the article. So if you're aged from up to 18 years old, if you have a podcast, you can submit to New York Times and get an award or something. So let me look up the article and I'll read it up in a few minutes. OK, sounds good. Thank you for the tease there. And Jonathan, I'm going to go to you because I know you are limited on time today and you had a couple of social media stories that would probably be of interest to most content creators.

34:27 Would you mind leading that off for us? Not a problem. The first one is a quick one, but a nice one that I know a lot of people have probably been waiting for. You can now reorder. After you post your carousels on Instagram, you can now reorder them. So for some reason you uploaded in the wrong order or you want to take a slide out and you know, move it to the end or whatever you need to do. You can now do that and that is something something that I know I have been waiting for for a very, very long time. So that is a nice update from Instagram. And yeah, I know people are like very excited about that. There was a whole bunch of people that were thrilled. The other story I have is a little bit different.

35:07 Go ahead. Mark, did you have something? No, go ahead. OK, so and that is, I don't know if those people, most people remember, but around this time last year, we were talking about the attention economy and how everybody's was looking to really chase that attention. And that's what people were looking for. Now there's a report out that just confirmed that social media is really entering a phase that's beyond attention. And the reason is AI has pretty much killed that that attention because 41% of Americans are actively looking to try cut their screen time and 68% of consumers are concerned with how platforms collect their data. So AI has made content super easy and it's killed the attention economy.

35:51 So what happens now? And people are looking for meaning on social media. And what they mean by that is something that's going to make a difference. So it's not just the attention because AI content is flooded the feeds and it's all getting attention. It's kind of overwhelming at this point. People are looking for content that adds meaning. So what does that mean for individual creators? And this applies not only social media, but for podcasting as well. People are looking for intentional content, content that feels nourishing, not empty. So we shouldn't be looking at reach being resonance. It's not impressions equaling impact. It's not views equaling value.

36:33 The metric that now matters the most is really if you make a difference in somebody's life, which is a very hard metric to measure and something that you you have to really decide, you have to go a little bit more in depth. But the one thing that I want to remind people is you're looking to, you know, make an impact, but you have to be remembered for that impact. So one thing that they're not talking about here is, you know, they're saying impact is important. It is, but if they don't remember that it's you that made that impact, it's going to be a hard thing for you to capitalize on. So making sure that you have a way to be remembered is going to be your focus on what to be doing in this car in this new intention economy, not attention economy.

37:20 Thank you, Jonathan. And I'm curious, so how do we do that? Like what is it that we need to do specifically? Like do you or maybe do you have examples like what's that way of capturing more attention, being more intentional? What are some ways you're going to do that? So one of the things is, you know, storytelling is going to be huge. I've we've been talking about it in those in those obsession worthy podcasts. You don't need to be louder, trendy or posting more. You need to be clearer, more recognizable and more yourself. And I think those are going to be the things that are going to allow you to really be seen and understand, you know, what your people are looking for. So instead of what we're thinking over polishing, be real, connect and make a difference in somebody's life.

38:03 Give them that story that makes them feel something. And that's a great way to be remembered. Mark Junaid wanted to make a comment as well. OK, before I go to Junaid, Yeah, I think that this is important, right? It's, you know, thinking about how polished so many of us want to be when we are on social media, when we're on a podcast. And I think you're going to start hearing people encourage you even more because we've done this already to be yourself, to allow the mistakes, right? Like I've had several flubs already today. I'm not editing all of them out, right? It's it, I think because that's just going to show more people that it's OK. And it does show, it makes me a little more relatable. It does help people connect with the fact like, oh, OK, this is a human and it's all subconscious, right? Like I don't think people are calculating all this consciously.

38:53 I just think that they notice and it makes them feel more comfortable with you. So I think even allowing those flubs, those mistakes to happen is going to be encouraged. It's going to be a good thing. I also think that doing more live stuff is going to that's going to become even more popular than it already is. I think that people are going to gravitate more to live content than produced content because it's going to be harder to tell the difference. I think at some point, AI is going to do a great job of recreating alive as well. But then we'll have to see how that all, you know, unfolds. But yeah, I see. All right, so let me go to Janae.

39:35 Did you want to share the story that you had or did you want to add on to this part of the conversation? I can do both. Let's keep this part of the conversation going first. Go ahead. All right, so. Excellent point. And you're absolutely right, Jonathan. The attention economy is going away. Thank you, thanks to AI Slop, which means that intention and the length of content that you're creating is going to be more effective. And we can see those examples by looking at the number one podcast in the world with Joe Rogan Experience. How long are those episodes? They're anywhere from 2 hours to three hours long. If you look at directly the CEO, those are about 2 1/2 three hours long. It's almost like a feature film length podcast episode. So think about that.

40:17 And storytelling is a huge part of what Jonathan shared, right? So that's one aspect of it. So how do we bring those stories? How do you bring those personal stories into the conversation so that you're keeping that intention and keeping their interest in the view? So I think those are some of the ways that we can continue to go over. And just last week, Digital Stage Summit was live produced using Ecamm and Zoom for three days straight. There's a ton of people. And the one thing that I got out of it is, again, live video, so it's going to overlay everything that's coming down. Interest, Interesting. Yes. Thank you, Nade. Yeah, thank you very much for that. Matt, did you want to add on to this? Yeah, just to like, I mean, I have a completely devil's advocacy contrarian view to all the things that we mentioned. I'm going to avoid that and just connect stories you've mentioned today instead.

41:07 Let's say that Spotify is aware of intention as opposed to attention being the thing that can be capitalized on in future. Do you think perhaps that kind of outlook on the industry is the reason for them pulling the money out of something that they can't track yet? Same with YouTube, they are handing over dynamic ad insertion to the creators as an opportunity for them to make money instead of selling ads on videos that they potentially aren't monetizing because they want the intention to be important, not to capitalize on the money. Anything that goes beyond the analytics. I'd wait for the tech companies to figure out how to track intention. It's going to be some AI based ocular recognition tool and like crows feet wrinkling of faces as they're observing, you know, phones and stuff. And we'll probably see Google Chuck the We Are Not Evil back into their terms and conditions as well. Yeah, good points.

42:04 Yeah, that's an interesting perspective. Thank you. Matt and Ralph, did anyone else want to chime in because I don't I can't see. I think Jonathan did. Yeah. I just want to say that as podcasters, if as we're creating, we need to think about how we're building trust with our audience. And when we're building that trust, that's going to help us really overcome all the things. And I truly believe your personality, building the trust and all those things you can do doesn't matter what happens in the end with all, you know, AI and everything, that's going to be the human connection. That's going to be what matters to people. Thank you, Jonathan. Appreciate that and thank you for bringing those two stories today. Ralph hit the music, please.

42:50 Now I am, you know, just trying to consider time here and we could pour into tomorrow as well. So I guess I'll just keep moving and if we have leftovers, maybe we'll hit some of those tomorrow in some podcast entertainment news. I call this entertainment news because this is more of the big celebrity name type stories in this space of podcasting. The hit podcast Smartless is taking its act on the road again for a rare live taping of the show. I know I said again and rare, but they have done this before. They just don't do it often. And this is slated for April 25th in Los Angeles. Hosts Will Arnett, Jason Bateman and Sean Hayes will sit down with a surprise special guest for a wide-ranging interview in an intimate setting. The episode will be released later that in the summer and Smart List listeners will be able to enter for a chance to win tickets.

43:47 The Smartlist podcast was launched in July of 2021 of the COVID Baby podcasts and has been part of the SiriusXM lineup since 2024. I think previously they were with Wandering if I'm not mistaken, or at least originally I think they were. OK, I'm going to keep things moving. This is a story the headline old school podcasters are tapping out. There's a new Wall Street Journal report that says some veteran podcasters are ending long running shows or stepping back as the industry gets quote UN quote tougher, more crowded and more driven by celebrity talent and video. The story points to a podcast space where longevity alone doesn't guarantee sustainability anymore.

44:33 So some of the highlights here. Several established shows have recently wrapped up or gone on a hiatus, including projects from The Try Guys, KFC Radio, and Rhett and Link, with hosts pointing to declining revenue, heavier production demands, and shifting priorities. The article suggests that burnout is a real factor, which we talk about here quite often, especially for creators who've been publishing for years and no longer feel the same excitement about keeping the machine running. I'm going to pause right there and just say, I mean, look, I can somewhat relate to that part of it, right? We've been doing the podcasting morning chat live for five years and as a podcast and live for four years. And, yeah, I mean, it can get a little grueling at times, especially when you're doing a show five days a week. So I certainly relate to that.

45:26 But you know, I think this is where passion overrides the grueling work, right? Because I have this passion for a community. I have this passion for helping other podcasters. So that is way outweighs the struggle sometimes that it is to put on a podcast day in and day out. Let's see here it says that competition has intensified as the mark has swell. Market has swelled to nearly 3,000,000 podcasts while celebrity lead and large media backed shows keep grabbing more attention. And I don't know how everyone feels about that. I mean, yes, I know that there are a lot of celebrities either starting a podcast or already in this space, but I never have felt that threat that I feel like a lot of podcasters feel like to me, I maybe this is because I'm so old school. I've been doing this for so many years that back in the day when we would hear a celebrity was doing a podcast, a lot of us would get excited because it meant it was putting podcasting on the map.

46:27 It more it was becoming more mainstream and that was only going to in at the time we felt only going to help us. And quite frankly, I still feel the same way. It doesn't. To me, it doesn't make it a more crowded space because more celebrities are doing it. To me, it just means that it's creating a bigger awareness. And I know that there are valid arguments around this, but I don't think you're going to be able to convince me. I think there's plenty of space. And there's another article that I want to get to, but we're going to save it for tomorrow. I'll tease it in just a moment. Ralph, did you want to add on to this? Yeah. I just wanted to say other thing I was going to add on to this. I think a lot of this has to do with people leaving podcasting for other monetization strategies, not in podcasting once they've established an audience.

47:09 I think that's a reality in some of this cases too. There are living to other things and that's OK. I mean, that just, I think that's just we have to accept where we are. And I think some of these creators, that's exactly what they're doing. They're saying, you know, I don't need to do all this content anymore. I have a following over here. I can sell coaching programs, I can sell books. I can do all those things. And I think there's a little bit less focus on the content creation because they've already established an audience and that's OK. That's a good thing. It just gives more room, which is what you're going to talk about tomorrow, more room for other people to jump in and maybe take over where other people have, you know, where there's where there's a gap now that you've got something interesting to say. So I, I tend to agree with you, Mark.

47:49 I don't think this is a negative thing. I think this is just an evolutionary thing. It's a Christian guy. I believe in seasons of life and I think this is a season for a lot of folks and I think we need to appreciate what they brought to us. And now we say, OK, now what does that next season look like for you? Yeah. Thank you, Ralph and Matt, is that hand up still? Is that new or? OK? Yes, go for it. I think what we can call what you're talking about there, Mark the illusion of competition. Illusion being that podcasters often conflate people having minimal attention as a resource, and there's only so much people can do with it. That means you're competing for attention with everybody else and they think of it podcast as like being on a shelf and pits. People are only going to pick 3 or 4 things. They're not going to pick your thing if it's not the flashiest thing in the world.

48:35 And then people who sell services, that's the allusion of competition will tell you're not competing right? You're not standing out enough. Get pay me and I can make that happen for you. The other thing I want to point out as well is something Tom Webster from Sounds Profitable. I'm gonna stop you right there because is this a recent post he did? No, he defined podcast primes as the people who are natively podcasty and love to tell other people about podcasting. I think our podcast prime population isn't increasing. As more people get into it, like you talked about celebrity podcasts, they become, I can't remember what the term he had for them, let's call them podcast pedestrians. And we want to convert them to primes so that podcasting space increases.

49:22 But sorry, that was a good segue. What are we talking about tomorrow? Yes, well, I saw a recent post from Tom Webster talking, making a comparison to books and podcasting. And maybe in some ways this might feel like a new take on podcast competition. And it asks whether the space is truly saturated or whether podcaster should be rethinking the kind of commitment they're asking from listeners. I'll explain more. This is an area that I've been thinking a lot about. And then when I saw Tom Webster or post about it, I felt like this it's time, it's time to talk about it, you know, competition. And also is that a fair comparison comparing books to podcasting? We'll explain more about that tomorrow. So come back and join us then at 7:00 AM Eastern. Before I officially wrap up, I do want to go to Janae. Did you want to share a little bit about that article that you wanted to that you teased earlier? Yeah, for sure.

50:21 Matt also placed the link in in the clubhouse chat. But essentially what New York Times doing is there you go. So they they're basically launching a New York Times student podcast contest hosted by the New York Times. Deadline is May 13th, 2026. Students ages 10 to 19 can enter for free. All they need to have is a podcast, and that podcast must be 5 minutes or less informative, narrative or storytelling. Again, the link that's going to be in the show notes. We'll have all the details. And good luck to all the students coming on. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, Janae. Appreciate that. So we are back tomorrow, 7:00 AM Eastern live on Clubhouse, YouTube, LinkedIn, Facebook, all the things.

51:03 And we would love for you to join us there. And you can do that by going to podcastingmorningchat.com/joinus. So come back tomorrow and until then, make it a great day. Everybody take care.