450. The Curiosity Loop That Forces Listeners to Stay

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Good morning podcasting morning
chat.

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Today is Monday, February 9th,
2026, and today we're diving

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into our weekly binge worthy
podcast discussion with the show

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Hyper Fixed.
We're going to talk about why

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it's binge worthy and what we
all can learn from it.

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Going to be a great show today.
So if you're listening on

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Clubhouse, hit the share button
left hand side of the screen and

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share hub or Clubhouse lights
you.

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If you're catching this via
podcast, please share this with

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a fellow podcaster.
Now give us about 30 seconds and

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we'll get things moving.
Thanks for being here today.

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Well, good morning again,
podcasting, Morning Chat.

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Thank you so much for being
here.

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I'm your host for today, Ralph
Estep Junior, filling in for

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Mark Ronik and currently on
stage.

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Joining me this morning are
producer Ashley Feller, Jonathan

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Howard, producer Dr. Faye, Alex
Baelish, Sid Meadows, Nick

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Naubach, BC Babbles and Tide
Tutoring.

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So let's get this started.
Today we're going to be talking

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about the show Hyper Fixed.
So, Jonathan, I am going to let

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you lead the way, my friend.
Welcome guys.

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So we're going to be talking
about Hyper Fixed today in the

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Obsession Worthy podcast series
and just to kind of kick off the

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series so everybody knows what
this the purpose is.

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We generally do this once a
week.

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And the idea is that we're going
to look at podcasts that are

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obsession worthy that are
critically acclaimed or doing

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something right and try to pull
out some of what they're doing

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right so that we can use it
ourselves in our own podcast.

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So that's the series and today
we are talking about Hyperfix.

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Now Hyperfix is an interesting
concept.

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In the actual episode that I
shared with you guys was

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actually a live episode.
It had an interesting feel to

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it, although it did kind of
mimic what their general feel

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is.
It was just on the live side for

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this particular episode.
And I actually have listened to

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a few and they follow a similar
format, just this one happened

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to be live.
What Hyperfix does is it turns a

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practical request from a
listener into a story where

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there's a shift in the way
people think and the way that

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things are happening, and maybe
an identity shift the listener

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can submit.
Can you help me with this?

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And then the host treats it like
a mystery, follows a thread, and

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really kind of lands on this
real world friction.

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It's a bigger take than the
original ask.

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So it is definitely an
interesting concept.

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This particular 1 is about a mom
and his son, and we'll kind of

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dive into that a little bit.
Overall, the genre is like

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investigative help desk meets
emotional story, and the promise

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is that they'll fix something
and probably crack something

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else open along the way.
So this first clip kind of sets

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up the episode and clearly sets
the stakes, explains why the

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whole episode matters, and Tees
up an emotional payoff before we

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even are introduced to the
players.

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So, Ralph, if you want to hit
that first clip.

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Last week, Hyperfix performed
our first live story at On Air

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Fest in Brooklyn, and in most
cases, if we did a live version

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of a show, we'd probably re
record the entire thing for

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broadcast.
But in this case, the live

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aspect was simply not replicable
in the studio.

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So we wanted to play you the
story as it was performed at On

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Air Fest.
It's a story about regret, fear,

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and ultimately the courage it
takes to just try.

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Here's the story.
Like you said, we haven't even

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met the players yet.
And this is kind of establishing

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one of the most important things
about this podcast, which is the

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narrator, Alex, the host of the
show actually is a huge part of

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the putting together the stories
and making it actually feel like

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a complete story.
Like things are like

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interesting.
She does a really good job

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keeping succinctly intro, but it
also adds emotion and actually

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already gets us invested in what
may happen because he pretty

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much states what the story is
about and is setting us up for a

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story based on, you know, fear
and doing things that are hard

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to do and all that.
So right off the bat, you feel

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the emotional connection to the
particular story.

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In the next clip, we're going to
meet the man who brings the

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problem and you know the thing
that needs to be fixed.

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And we're going to really also
see in this clip the unique

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pacing and setup of the show.
Jonathan, I just want to

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interject one thing here because
I don't want to lose sight of

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this in that first clip.
What we're really hearing though

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is Alex is setting the stage for
what this is going to be.

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And I think he did a really good
job of that.

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Did anyone else want to comment
on that?

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Because I had never listened to
this before.

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And once I got past the first so
many minutes of of commercials,

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which was frustrating to me.
And we kind of talked to him

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about that in a pre chat.
But I thought he did a good job

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of explaining exactly why we're
here and what we're going to get

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from that.
What what did you think,

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Jonathan?
Do you feel the same way?

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Absolutely.
And I think that that his role

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as a narrator and kind of
storyteller throughout this

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podcast, he does an excellent
job really keeping this distinct

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and us on task and like knowing
what's happening and where we

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are in each part of the story.
I thought he did a phenomenal

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job with that.
I also thought he did a good job

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of setting the stage for it
being a live event, so we

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weren't so critical about the
audio sound, which I thought was

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really important as well.
Yes.

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And the audio, because it was a
lot of that, the audio was a

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little bit rougher than some of
the other episodes, but yeah,

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all.
Right.

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Well, let me go ahead and play
the second clip if you're ready,

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Jonathan, We'll move on to the
second clip.

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OK.
So I have my my camera set up on

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a bunch of VHS tapes right now
and I'm going to use those.

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To hold this thing.
Up the whole.

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Perfect.
Why do you have a bunch of VHS

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tapes?
Because I'm a giant nerd.

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This is Keenan.
He's a Toronto native, and if he

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is a nerd, he is the very best
kind of nerd.

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He is a media nerd, and not just
the kind that obsesses over

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stats and trivia.
Keenan is the kind of nerd that

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attends as much to the social
world of the art as the art

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itself.
He spent years working in record

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stores, concert venues, He has
an insane collection of physical

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media.
But there's one artist whose

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work continues to evade him, and
that artist is his mother,

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Megan.
What is your relationship with

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your mom like?
Like, do you, are you guys

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pretty candid with one another?
Do you have an easy

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relationship?
Is it difficult?

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Is it weird?
Like what do you what?

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What kind of relationship do you
have?

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I would say it's all of those
things.

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That's totally fair.
Yeah, I, I, I love my mom to

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bets.
She's been a very emotionally

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honest.
This clip, we get to meet who

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the person is that's bringing
the the thing and we also get to

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learn that it's also involving
his mother.

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Plus we see the unique format
which the podcast has the

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narration.
Then, you know, a sort of an

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interview segment to there's
some explanation points and a

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few just quick excerpts for
impact.

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But what this really does is it
maintains the pace of the

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episode throughout, moving us
forward to the next key moment

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with interesting dialogue.
Interesting commentary as we go

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through it.
We cover a lot of ground in the

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story.
There is never a moment that it

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feels like it's dragging.
And I think that the host did a

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really, really great job with
that.

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And I wonder if anybody else?
Yeah, Jonathan, the thing I will

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say here that really impressed
me was, yeah, I like what Ashley

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put in the comments.
I thought once they got past the

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ads, the flow was great.
I agree with Ashley.

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And actually the thing I thought
was really cool here is when he

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introduced the first person, you
kind of want to know more about

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this person, that idea of the
VHS tapes.

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We we got a he's painting a
mental picture and then he's

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thinking about the tension going
on with his mom and things like

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that.
And just it was instant way for

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me to relate.
I can think back to when,

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because I'm 53, the VHS tapes
isn't that foreign to me.

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So it, it really connected with
me and I'm, I'm guessing he

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knows who his audience is and
he's doing the same thing.

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I would agree with that.
And I, yeah, I immediately, the

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camera balancing on the VHS
tapes, I, I also immediately

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pictured a media nerd with, you
know, even microfilm and all

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sorts of things like that that
were just how media was kind of

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collected.
So I thought that was a great

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way to really bring that
together.

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Nick wanted to make a comment.
Go ahead, Nick.

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I really like and I've always
been fascinated by narrative

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style podcast with the way that
he's able to so seamlessly blend

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narration with interaction with
the guest.

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It's such a unique way to do a
podcast that you don't normally

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see.
But also I understand that it's

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also not the easiest thing to
do.

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And I just wanted to make that
comment.

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I appreciate that style of
podcasting so much and just

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it's, it's impressive to me.
I tend to agree with you, Nick.

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That's where he really shines
because so many people start.

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But let's me get, let me give
the person the the rundown, who

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this person is and all that sort
of thing.

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But he did it in such a way,
sort of like a tapestry of just

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wave, sort of weaving it
together and it was really

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effective.
I have to agree with you, Nick.

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Did anybody else want to comment
on that?

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I agree, Nick.
And I think one of the things

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that we can take away from this,
and I was going to mention this

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a little bit later, but I want
to mention it now, is when we do

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our intros, instead of giving
that whole long here, this is

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this person and they do this and
they do that and just creating a

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story around it.
So it gets passed in the flow

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actually goes much smoother in
your podcast where you actually

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are at contributing to the story
while introducing the person.

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And I think that's important for
us to kind of look at as well.

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We're going to dive a little bit
more into the story.

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We're going to get to meet
Megan, who is going to talk

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about an opportunity that she
she was hoping to be getting to

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record some songs for Katie
Lang.

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They might be things that Katie
Lang might be interested in

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performing.
And then what happened with that

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led her to change her career and
go about things a different way.

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And leave music behind for about
40 whole years.

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That's the next clip.
Fun thing that Megan has been

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reluctant to talk about her
young dreams of being a

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songwriter over the years.
Keenan's heard the story in bits

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and pieces, but the broad
strokes of it goes something

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like this.
In the early 80s, Megan was a

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waitress at Second City in
Toronto, and she was writing

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songs.
A friend of hers, Second City's

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house piano player, said, Hey, I
have this friend.

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She's a singer-songwriter.
I guarantee she would love to

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perform your songs.
Her name's Katie Lang.

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Let's record some songs.
You can give her your tape.

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I'll put in a good word for you.
And unfortunately, that good

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word may have been put in, but
Katie never called her back.

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And that was kind of the
decision.

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That was the moment when she
decided to give up music.

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And that was something that her
son remembered very clearly

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because it was something that
she never talked about where

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they're they were comfortable
and they talked about a lot of

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other things.
That was something that she

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never talked about with her son
and she actually kind of closed

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it off and she went in a
different direction in her

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career.
She actually went into some TV

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film stuff and was on sets with
things, but she never went back

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to her music.
And that's where a lot of the

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tension for the rest of this
episode is kind of built up.

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She tried to push this whole
thing behind her out of her life

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and didn't talk to her son about
it.

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So the plan unfolds throughout
the episode of them maybe going

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back and hearing or maybe going
back and letting them see the

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recordings that she did because
she hasn't listened to them.

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She apparently has Monica
cassette tape somewhere and

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we're going to follow the
process throughout this whole

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journey.
Now this is one thing that we

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really see as we're going is the
excitement and the story of this

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whole thing is where we go from
here.

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Whether we convince her to
actually do this.

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That is a lot of the the process
is that story of whether she's

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doing it.
Is she going to do it till we

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get to she decides that she's
going to do it and she says

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she's going to let us hear the
songs, but she's not going to

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sing them.
That kind of brings us to where

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it's live.
We're going to get to hear her

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song in this podcast.
But I did want to stop and talk

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a little bit about kind of why
clips one through 3 work for

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this podcast, but I want to see
if anybody else has anything

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they want to add before I go
into that.

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Yeah, I think this really does
build A level of tension and

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wade into this.
You've, you're invested in this

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now you want to hear how this
plays out.

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And I, I think we all can take
away from that if we learn from

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that, to do that in our
production as well as set the

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table at the front end, get
people invested in what you're

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doing.
Don't jump right to the the end

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of the story.
Sort of put something out there,

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a runway if you will, to, to
lead people to build up that

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tension and build up that way
because then you, you just want

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to keep listening.
The first couple clips really

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help us build build that problem
out.

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He shows what Alex was
approached with, with the basic

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thing, with the tape, and then
there's a deeper problem.

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The host reframes that deeper
problem and kind of plays into

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that and starts digging a little
bit and then following these

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clips, what we previously had
called the messy middle, at

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least the last two weeks here.
I kind of call it process as the

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story, but you hear the
attempts, logistics, the near

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misses, the coordination.
It's not a recap, it's the

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experience of the journey for
them.

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But what I was wondering is why
does this concept of the messy

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middle or the journey or the
process, why does this keep

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coming up as the key to a lot of
these podcasts, Ashley.

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Because in any story you have to
have a rising action to have a

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story, it has to do something.
There has to be some sort of

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challenge for the protagonist to
face in order to have a

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resolution.
Absolutely.

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And what is really important
about a lot of this is the messy

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middle.
That's the relatable stuff.

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Nobody can relate with the
perfection and the, you know,

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everything going according to
plan.

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So the things that go a little
bit are a little bit messy.

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That's what's relatable.
That's what people connect with

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and that's why so many podcasts
are focusing on those things

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when they're telling the story
of of something happening, the

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telling the story of a business
rising, telling the story of,

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00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,320
you know, this particular
experience with Megan

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discovering her music.
Again, what is relatable is what

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people are going to connect
with.

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So that's why so many podcasts
are focusing on those things

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that are, you know, don't go
quite according to plan.

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00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,640
But you also have to, at this
time, Jonathan, really

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00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,000
understand who you're speaking
to because you want to make sure

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you bring in things that will
connect with your audience.

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00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,040
If you're talking to a younger
audience, a lot of the things

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that they're talking about here
might not connect with the

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00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,200
younger audience.
But I'm picturing these people

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00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,000
of the 80s and people who
understand the cassette tapes

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00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,680
and the VHS tapes and a journey
because you're talking about

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somebody that set something
aside for, I think you said 40

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00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,000
years.
You kind of really understand

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00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,760
who's listening to this and how
do you build that story to

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00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,280
connect the things in their life
they'll associate with?

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00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,480
Yes, absolutely.
And the other thing that comes

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00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,440
into that is you also have to be
aware of the emotions that

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00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,320
you're connecting so that you're
connecting with a universal

301
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,480
emotion that people are going to
going to understand.

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00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,480
Now, yes, in this case, because
the audience is older, you're

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00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,880
connecting with, you know,
leaving something behind, coming

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00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,640
back to it, that yearning to do
something and then suddenly no

305
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,080
longer doing it or missing out
on something in your life.

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00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,200
So all those, but those
emotional connections are

307
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,680
really, really important when
you're telling the stories as

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00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,440
well.
One of the things that I've

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00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:48,080
always struggled with when it
comes to more storytelling kinds

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00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,640
of like creative is not losing
the people in that messy middle.

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00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,920
I understand what I'm trying to
get to, but I feel like a lot of

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00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,880
times that is also the same
point that I would typically

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00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:03,760
lose people is like I'm almost
trying to trying too hard to

314
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:10,839
make the story that people just
become uninterested and like you

315
00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:13,400
kind of lose people before you
even get to like the main plot

316
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,119
or the resolution.
We've had Dominic come on and

317
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,000
talk storytelling here in the
past, but I would love to have

318
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:24,319
him come back on and kind of
talk through that creative

319
00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:27,800
writing of building that story,
Like the process of actually

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00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,480
putting together the pieces that
create the overall story.

321
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,640
Just because it's, it's such a
powerful tool that as a

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00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,080
podcaster, if you can harness
that and you can utilize that,

323
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,560
it can serve you so well and
you're going to captivate

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00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,560
audiences.
And I just think, at least for

325
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,040
me, I can't speak for everyone
here, but capturing that

326
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,000
specifically is extremely
difficult for you to wrap my

327
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,480
head around.
And Nick, I wanted to interject

328
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,040
something there because one of
the things you really keyed in

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00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,160
on is we talk a lot about AI on
the show.

330
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,560
This is something that AI will
never be able to do.

331
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,840
So if you're listening right
now, you're thinking all these

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00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,600
AI things scare me.
The AI is going to take over

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00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,960
everything.
The stories that all of us have

334
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,800
within inside of us, the years
of the things that we've been

335
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,400
through, AI can never recreate
those.

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00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,240
So this is a place where you can
really lean into your

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00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:18,840
experience.
And Nick, I understand what

338
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,920
you're balancing.
You're thinking, how do I get

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00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,080
through that messy middle?
Because what seems interesting

340
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,680
to me might not be interesting
to the other person.

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00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,240
And that's where, again, I go
back to understanding your

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00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,680
audience and just leaning into
your emotions, leaning into your

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00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,680
feelings, because I think at
some level everybody can connect

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00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,680
with those.
That's my take away from that.

345
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,360
Nick is, yeah, I think that's I
think that's the beauty of this

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00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:43,000
is the good narrators, the good
storytellers are able to lean

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00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,760
into that emotion and those
feelings and they paint a

348
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,160
picture for you.
And like I said, my big take

349
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,040
away from that is as we think
about AIAI will never be able to

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00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:53,360
do that.
So that's one of the things that

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00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:55,240
we can really put our efforts
into.

352
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:56,720
Go ahead.
DRS, you had a comment.

353
00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,720
I know that AI could never do
that.

354
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:05,360
However, when you talk about
someone's life and them writing

355
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:06,960
down.
Stuff.

356
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,560
All about their life.
It's hard to know where to

357
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,960
begin.
It's just too big.

358
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:18,880
And what AI can do is give you
some prompts for maybe to tap

359
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,400
that memory, maybe to give you a
place to start by asking you

360
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,760
questions.
So I think AI would be helpful

361
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:28,520
in this manner.
That's very fair.

362
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,080
DRI agree with you.
I I'm just saying it can't bring

363
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:32,400
the story, but I think you're
right.

364
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,640
I think it can help bring that
story to life.

365
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,680
It can poke you and prod you and
ask you the question.

366
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,360
So I that's a brilliant
observation.

367
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:42,480
DRI didn't mean to overspeak
when I said AAI can't help you

368
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:43,880
at all.
But I just think that the

369
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,120
finding of the story, that's the
hard part.

370
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:47,440
That's where AI can ever
replicate.

371
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,640
But I do agree with you that
this is a place where AI can

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00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:51,800
help you assemble those
thoughts.

373
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,920
And Nick, maybe it helps set
that process that you were

374
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,240
working through of how to get
that story into a shape of how

375
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,480
to make it interact well with
the listener.

376
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,280
So great observation, Dr. I'm
going to also add and actually

377
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:09,880
later on in the in our rundown
of this, I will share a story

378
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,040
format, a story formula that you
can use, but there are any

379
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,960
number I share with my my
clients.

380
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,720
I have 12 different story
formats that we can use in our

381
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,680
in our content that will help
can help you build a story

382
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,080
that's going to connect with
your audience.

383
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,760
So I'm going to share the story
format that they use here, which

384
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,600
again, you can kind of use in
your content, mimic it in in a

385
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,840
way that's going to help you
really tell a story that's going

386
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,640
to land with people.
Because stories can be difficult

387
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,720
to tell.
But there are a lot of different

388
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,640
formats that you can use that
will make it easier for you to

389
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,080
tell those stories.
Jonathan, you mentioned what you

390
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,560
do, and I know Mark always likes
to to mention this.

391
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,120
If you want to learn more about
the people here here on stage,

392
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:57,000
you can find out about all of us
by going to podcasting, morning

393
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,520
chat and then go to the about
section.

394
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,320
Jonathan mentioned what he does
and all of us do other things.

395
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,800
And if you want to find out more
about all of us here on stage,

396
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,920
you can go again to podcast
morning chat and then go to the

397
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:10,840
About section.
Sorry to interrupt you,

398
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,520
Jonathan, but I thought we
should talk about that for a

399
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,280
moment.
Not a problem.

400
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,880
So I appreciate that.
And anything else on the this

401
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:22,360
kind of the first setup, we're
kind of covering the whole setup

402
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:24,840
of it.
We're going to jump into kind of

403
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,120
the ending a little bit.
We're going to skip all the good

404
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:28,760
parts in the middle.
Ashley, go ahead.

405
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,040
I just thought the moment they
introduced the mom that really

406
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,000
helped carry the story along.
They didn't have to include real

407
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,240
audio clips from her at all.
They could have gone on, told

408
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,800
the story, you know, second
hand, but really bringing her

409
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,720
voice, her personality to the
whole thing is really what did

410
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,480
it.
And I have to say, she was a

411
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,680
really engaging character and I
think the ending would not have

412
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,800
landed as hard as it did if it
wasn't for her being introduced

413
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,400
earlier on.
But she was a trip.

414
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,400
I actually really enjoyed her.
This next clip actually starts

415
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,960
with one of the tools that helps
with the pacing of the show.

416
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:10,040
Why don't we hit that 4th clip,
Ralph?

417
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:16,560
Chapter 599 Stones OK, so we
spoken to Megan.

418
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,480
She's told us she wants to do
this and that when she gets back

419
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,000
to Halifax on Tuesday, she's
going to send over the sheet

420
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,520
music and the cassette and all
of this is great.

421
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:28,400
We say goodbye, we hang up the
call, and then all we can do is

422
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,880
wait and pray that at some point
between now and then, Megan

423
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,720
doesn't change her mind.
Because if she does, we have no

424
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,080
backup plan for this live show
and no time to figure out an

425
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,600
alternative.
And if you think I'm simply I'm

426
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,000
mentioning this simply for the
sake of ramping up narrative

427
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:52,440
tension, one, you're right. 2
Let me remind you, this woman

428
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,440
has not let anyone hear her
music in nearly 4 decades,

429
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,400
including her son.
And now we're expecting her to

430
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,640
turn over the only recordings
via snail mail to a bald

431
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,200
stranger whose end game is to
share it with the world.

432
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,520
So Needless to say, I did not
sleep well on Monday of last

433
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,200
week.
The actual work is this, the

434
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,960
content and the things that are
happening, and those are the

435
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,640
things that support the story
and the transformation.

436
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,880
The other thing that this
episode does to build this

437
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,040
emotion, this tension, this
impact is it has these

438
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,120
constraints like the chapters.
Now I know because I listened to

439
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:34,640
the whole podcast, I didn't take
out just clips for myself that

440
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,560
there's six parts to this story,
but this one, this right here

441
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,360
started with part 5.
So I immediately and then

442
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,160
listeners immediately thought,
oh, wow, there's still a lot.

443
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,160
Where are we with this?
Are they actually going to be

444
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,560
able to get it done?
And that's something called the

445
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:57,560
curiosity loop.
That is a huge payoff for people

446
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,360
listening.
And it actually got people to

447
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:02,920
lean in because chapter 5 O 6,
we haven't really gotten

448
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,760
anywhere yet.
Are they going to be able to

449
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,920
pull this off?
Will they be able to actually

450
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,640
get her to share the music, all
of these things.

451
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,800
So the listener leans in when
they hear that we're at five O 6

452
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,560
and really wants to know.
So that's kind of a really great

453
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,680
tool, but also something that
curiosity loop, something to

454
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,200
keep in mind when you're
creating your own content,

455
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,800
because that will help you bring
the the listener, the reader,

456
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,440
whoever, however you're
presenting your story, that'll

457
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,560
allow you to bring them into it
and get them to lean in.

458
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,800
Jonathan, I will add something
there because here's one

459
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,520
critique.
If we're going to critique this,

460
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:43,280
I thought that if they had
landed that sooner to build up

461
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,200
that our issue going to show up.
Is this going to work?

462
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,840
I think they could have gone
back and made it even more

463
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,800
dynamic by doing that earlier.
And you know, what I'm saying is

464
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,720
like just put a little bit
sooner in the episode.

465
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,000
And that's one of the things as
we're planning our episodes, the

466
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,680
curiosity loop is massive
because at this point, dude,

467
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,720
unless I get hit by a bus, I'm
listening to the end of this

468
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,080
because I want to continue on
because I don't want to miss it.

469
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,600
And if we can build that into
the creative work that we're

470
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,200
doing, that's how you keep that
retention rate up.

471
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,760
That's how you keep people
coming back to listen to you

472
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,480
more.
But it's so important that your

473
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,800
strategic and your intentional
in that.

474
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:23,320
In this particular, because this
was the the redo of the live, I

475
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,200
think that the pacing on this
one was a little bit off.

476
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,440
They just moving through it, but
it was it did take a while to

477
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,200
get to where we finally know
that it's going to happen.

478
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,000
But I also think for the live,
he was putting that off because

479
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,640
he wanted to take a lot of his
session and not not allow the

480
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,960
audience to know this was going
to happen because if he left a

481
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,480
ton of time for it, then they'd
know.

482
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,200
Oh yeah, there's no tension in
the story.

483
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,200
This happened, it worked, it's
fine.

484
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,240
I think with the delivery of it
being that it was live, it makes

485
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,920
sense that it was a little bit
later, but absolutely would have

486
00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:03,600
been nicer in an online version
to have it a little bit sooner.

487
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,320
But before we dive into the
takeaways, let's jump into what

488
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,240
makes it truly obsession worthy.
And it's kind of the end of the

489
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,520
episode and what happened that
kind of makes this episode

490
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,960
magic.
So that's the next clip, Ralph,

491
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,840
Alex, you convinced me I was
like, this is not happening.

492
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,200
Like it's a it's a lot.
And I am blessed and the love of

493
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,760
my son who remembered and kept
the memory of my music and

494
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,200
remembered because I forgot it
was in a box in the basement

495
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,240
that I spent 4 hours looking
for.

496
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,200
And it's been quite an
experience.

497
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,920
You know that core 23 year old
that wrote it so many years ago.

498
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,360
So what has inspired me is I'm
going to go buy myself a

499
00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:50,320
keyboard and get back to my
music because I'd love to play

500
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:56,440
the piano, but the music is
still in me.

501
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:03,720
Yes, Ashley, a very satisfying
ending and truly and I I'm sorry

502
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,760
I didn't play any of the music
for you guys, but it was the

503
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,800
nice song overall, just a really
great ending.

504
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,640
And that's part of the magic of
this podcast is the ending is

505
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,520
not only satisfying, but
touching and interesting.

506
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,680
And go ahead, Ashley.
I just wanted to say the ending

507
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,720
literally brought tears to my
eyes.

508
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,680
I was watching washing the
dishes as I was listening and to

509
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,120
hear her say I'm going to go get
a keyboard, that really just

510
00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:34,280
didn't move me.
Yeah, it was she.

511
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,280
She'd given up on music as part
of being part of her life for 40

512
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:43,680
years.
And this was truly a moment that

513
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,080
was touching.
And there's a follow up to this

514
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,560
episode, which I didn't include
for you guys, but people sent

515
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,440
her money for a keyboard.
People were sending her, you

516
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,600
know, listening, asking for her
other songs.

517
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,000
So it was a really touching
moment that actually touched

518
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,200
everybody that was in the live
as well as, you know, listening.

519
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,040
Well, Jonas, so do you want to
talk about the journey, like how

520
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:05,560
do we replicate what they did
here?

521
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,560
I know you mentioned a few
minutes ago that you had sort of

522
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,440
a a plan for that.
Do you want to go move into

523
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,360
that?
I just wanted to point out

524
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,040
before we head into that, that
the host is really the glue to

525
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,280
this show.
He keeps the show together and

526
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,000
he kind of positions himself as
an overconfident idiot in a lot

527
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,160
of the information that they're
putting out, but he's still a

528
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,480
legit reporter and producer.
So that combo kind of makes the

529
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:32,880
show feel smart without being
smug, and his overall humanness

530
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,240
really helps us go through the
process.

531
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,520
Like you're doing it with a
friend and you're rooting for

532
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,120
his success.
Overall, there's a few things

533
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,680
that make this episode
particularly obsession worthy,

534
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,280
but one of them is the format
that builds on itself.

535
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,520
So it starts with a curiosity
loop.

536
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,160
So will they pull off this
journey, this thing that they're

537
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,960
wanting to do?
And curiosity always keeps

538
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,720
people hooked.
So you're going to start with

539
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,280
something that's going to keep
people hooked.

540
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,000
Overconfident idiot.
I know I do love that.

541
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,200
And then it leverages and it
sits on that escalation.

542
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,000
Each step raises an emotional
stake, so you pull deeper and

543
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,800
deeper into the story.
So by adding that escalation

544
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,560
each step of the way, you're not
letting go because you're

545
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,000
watching as the work is
happening, which is building the

546
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,200
emotion.
So you're earning the emotion

547
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,280
right along with the people on
the story.

548
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,440
And then when you end it with
the identity shift, that's what

549
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,000
really sticks.
That's the wow, look at the

550
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,080
impact of this journey.
So curiosity loop, escalation,

551
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,920
earned emotions because you're
going to be building with them

552
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,280
and you got to make sure you're
you're highlighting a key

553
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,560
emotion.
And then the identity shifts at

554
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,040
the end.
That's the format that this

555
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,920
podcast uses to build on and
uses in all of its episodes.

556
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,480
Ashley, I saw you had thrown a
pepper there.

557
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,640
That one was a pepper.
Yep, I have a pepper.

558
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,800
You're a pepper.
I thought that another thing

559
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,800
that really made this podcast
obsession where there was the

560
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,840
sound design you get to hear
because she says, you know, I

561
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,520
don't want to perform it myself.
I don't sing anymore.

562
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,360
So they actually get the host of
another podcast, Benchtopia.

563
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,200
She's the one who gets the to
perform the song.

564
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,960
So you get to hear her version
and then at the end, if you

565
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,640
listen, you hear the original
tape.

566
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,680
And from what I, I understand, I
hope I didn't misunderstand

567
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,800
this, is that it was originally
a reel to reel tape and they had

568
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,800
to clean it up and digitize it.
So you got to hear a more

569
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,600
digital version that had been
cleaned up in the end.

570
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,440
And that, I thought that was
just icing on the cake.

571
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,480
You were correct.
It was a reel to reel and that

572
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,520
was actually the original
problem that Alex came.

573
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:47,080
He wanted to be able to transfer
that reel to reel to an actual

574
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,120
digital version so that they
could hear it.

575
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,080
And that was the original
problem which led to actually

576
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,280
getting, you know, mom to accept
that she had stepped away from

577
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,800
her music and and having that
conversation about it.

578
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,480
Jonathan, let me ask a question
because this is something that I

579
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,640
really want to do a better job
of and I'm sure there's other

580
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:06,920
people that are tuning into
this.

581
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,760
Maybe you're listening to us
after a live event.

582
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,760
How do you build that curiosity
loop?

583
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,760
Because man, I listen to that.
I'm like, that's what I need to

584
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,800
do.
Jonathan, how do you make that

585
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,760
happen?
What's how do you set that out?

586
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,160
Would you write it down on
paper?

587
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:21,920
Do you draw it out sort of a
schematic?

588
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,040
But how do you actually make
that happen?

589
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,160
For some of us who aren't as
creative, maybe we're really

590
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,600
good at our trade.
Like for me, I've spent 30 years

591
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,840
in in finance and accounting and
tax.

592
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,320
I'm good at that stuff, man.
But when it comes to like

593
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,880
content creation, that idea of a
curiosity loop, logically it

594
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,000
makes sense to us.
But how do we get to that?

595
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,480
Jonathan, do you have any tips
for that?

596
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:47,280
One, yes, knowing your audience,
first of all, when you create

597
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,080
this curiosity loop or this
curiosity gap, a lot of times by

598
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:56,480
having a difference in the
information that your average

599
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,280
person knows and you're going to
provide something that's going

600
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,240
to tease that at the beginning,
and then you're slowly going to

601
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:08,360
reveal the what they don't know
throughout the episode.

602
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,200
So that's that's the basic
format of something like that.

603
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:17,080
So knowing what your audience
knows and then kind of teasing

604
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,840
something that's a little bit
past what their knowledge base

605
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,720
is and that's going to help you
create that that curiosity loop.

606
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,720
It's it is what keeps people
listening is knowing that

607
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,720
they're going to learn
something, get to know

608
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,760
something, something that they
don't know yet.

609
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,680
So that's how you kind of build
that in.

610
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,520
And Jonathan, what you're really
saying, if I can paraphrase

611
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,640
that, is you've got to be super
intentional in building your

612
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,600
episodes because what I'm
thinking now, it's not the time

613
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,080
to go stand in front or sit in
front of the microphone and just

614
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:50,760
come off the top of your head
with stuff.

615
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,080
There's a place for that.
But what you're really talking

616
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,400
about here is sort of starting
with the end in mind.

617
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,200
You're picturing the journey
that you want this person to

618
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,080
take, and it's sort of like
you're laying out a map or an

619
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,840
agenda of how to get there.
And I think for a lot of us, we

620
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,240
think, oh, we'll just take a
couple of notes, a couple bullet

621
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,200
points, and there's our show for
today.

622
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,840
But Jonathan, what you're really
saying is to be remarkable and

623
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,760
to really do this effectively,
there's a whole lot of intent,

624
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,880
intention, maybe even more
intention in the creation of the

625
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,680
story and creation of a building
this platform that you're going

626
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,840
to build than actually doing the
work of, of recording it or

627
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:27,840
whatever that looks like for
you.

628
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:29,120
Would you agree with that,
Jonathan?

629
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,280
I would agree with that.
And one of the things that I

630
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,960
will say is often when we are
doing our other evaluations, one

631
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,040
of the things that bugs me is
that many of the episodes don't

632
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,440
have what I would say is a
strong hook.

633
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,320
Because that strong hook is what
the curiosity gap is kind of

634
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,240
about.
And when you don't have a strong

635
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,120
hook, it's like, why am I
listening to this?

636
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,000
What is the purpose behind this?
And that's what the curiosity

637
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,520
gap and, and you know, what
you're talking about actually

638
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,520
does is it allows people to see
why they're listening.

639
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,720
As humans, we have this
psychological need to solve a

640
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,760
puzzle or complete a story or
get something out of what we're

641
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,760
doing.
And when we build that in right

642
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,520
from the beginning, it keeps
people listening much, much

643
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,520
more.
And Jonathan, I think you just

644
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,520
nailed it.
A big take away for today is ask

645
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,679
yourself, what does the listener
get from this?

646
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,480
When you're putting your episode
together, when you're putting

647
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,920
your content together, ask
yourself that question.

648
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,719
If you can't answer that
question, I think you've got to

649
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,159
go back and revisit your plan
for that episode, your plan for

650
00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:30,920
that content, whatever you're
going to do.

651
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,400
Ask yourself that question.
And that may be difficult,

652
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:36,159
especially when you're at the
beginning of this, because now

653
00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:38,080
you just made me go back and
I'm, I'm getting ready to do

654
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,239
some recording today.
I do some batch recording on

655
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:41,800
Mondays.
And I'm thinking, man, I got to

656
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,400
go back and revisit this before
I hit record because I want to

657
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,040
make sure that I am giving them
something they can take away

658
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,679
from.
I think that is crucial.

659
00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:53,120
Jonathan, you just nailed it.
Thank you Ashley, I think you

660
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:55,880
you explained it really well in
the chat if you want to share.

661
00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:58,600
I think we kind of said the same
thing, but in a little bit of

662
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,040
different ways.
But when you think about a

663
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,840
delicious meal, it's an
experience.

664
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,520
Do you want to eat that all in
one bite, or do you want to have

665
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,840
a little at a time and really
enjoy it?

666
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,560
And that's how I think of
storytelling is you don't want

667
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,800
to give them the whole thing all
in one chunk.

668
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,200
You want to give them a little
at a time so that they

669
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,320
experience the journey along
with you.

670
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,920
I love what you just said,
Ashley, and use the food

671
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,920
analogy.
My wife and I were out to dinner

672
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,680
this past weekend and we went to
a particular restaurant and I

673
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,880
think this was a very keen thing
they did.

674
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:32,960
As they were telling us about
the menu.

675
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,600
One of the things they mentioned
is, and don't forget to leave

676
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,400
room for dessert.
We've got such and such a

677
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,040
dessert.
In this particular case, it was

678
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,400
a bananas foster that they did
tableside and it's one of my

679
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,680
favorites, but they set that at
the beginning.

680
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,400
So now the whole time I'm
thinking about dessert all

681
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,680
through dinner, I'm not trying
to rush through dinner.

682
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,120
I'm kind of a little bit trying
to rush through dinner, but I'm

683
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,800
making better choices because I
make sure I want to get to that

684
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,520
dessert.
And is that kind of what you're

685
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,120
seeing here, Ashley?
Is set up your content the same

686
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:00,920
way?
Yeah, kind of let them know

687
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,560
what's coming, but not exactly.
And then I'm glad.

688
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,160
Back to the food analogy, you
can have good meals that are a

689
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,400
single course if you will, but
great meals are served over

690
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,080
several courses I'd say.
Jonathan, I have a question for

691
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,280
you in general, because I know
you do this every Monday as you

692
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,080
start to think about what are
the contents or what are the

693
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,840
pieces that you look for in a
binge worthy podcast?

694
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,880
Because there may be people who
are tuning into us that have,

695
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,040
hey, you know what I'd like to
I'd like to let Jonathan know

696
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,800
about this particular 1,
Jonathan, But I thought this

697
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,360
would be a good time to talk
about what do you look for?

698
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,360
What are the things that your
big takeaways?

699
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,120
Because one of the things we
talked about before we started

700
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,400
recording today was this.
This episode had so many

701
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,440
commercials at the front end.
And you said before that that's

702
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,000
sort of the way they do things.
And I know for me that's a turn

703
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,120
off, Jonathan.
But what do you look for in a

704
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,800
binge worthy something you want
to talk about on the show?

705
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,840
Well, one, it's generally
critically acclaimed in some way

706
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,640
or another because I'm looking
for the things that people are

707
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,720
doing that are doing well.
I'm looking for something that

708
00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:07,080
has a solid storyline and a
solid message in it generally.

709
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:12,120
But honestly, it's hard because
I've listened to plenty of

710
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,400
obsession worthy podcasts that
are recommended to me that I

711
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,600
don't find that the takeaways.
And sometimes like there's a

712
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,120
bunch of episodes of different
things that I've wanted to

713
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,600
share, but they're not obsession
worthy in the same in an in a

714
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,600
different way than a lot of the
ones we've looked at.

715
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,200
So I kind of shy away from
those.

716
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,080
So it really does depend, but
I'm looking for a unique

717
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,160
perspective, a unique angle on a
podcast, a different way of

718
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,200
looking at things and something
that obviously is going to land

719
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,200
with people.
I can't tell you that you know,

720
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,160
you send one to me and I can't
tell you without listening to

721
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,640
like 3 episodes of it if it's
going to if I feel it's

722
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,480
obsession worthy or not because
sometimes the first episode

723
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,520
misses for me as well.
So I'll give it a couple other

724
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,720
chances.
I love what you just said there

725
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,240
because you may hear someone
recommend a show and you go

726
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:03,640
listen to only one episode.
You're like, what in the world?

727
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:05,360
Why did they recommend this to
me?

728
00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:07,840
I love what you just said
because you said sometimes

729
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,800
because I think as content
creators, we don't hit home runs

730
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,240
every single time.
We just have to accept that we

731
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:15,960
don't.
So I think it's cool, Jonathan,

732
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,560
that you said, I'll go back to
listen to three episodes.

733
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,920
So I I think all of us should do
that if someone recommends a

734
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,800
show to you.
And I think we really do need to

735
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,600
support each other in the
community, things like that.

736
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,120
But go listen to Not Just one,
because if you just take a

737
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,720
smidgen of one, like if I had
listened to this one today just

738
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:36,240
by itself and it's live, I'm not
in love with the audio quality.

739
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:39,200
It was kind of wonky to me as
far as the audio quality, I got

740
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:40,400
through it.
It wasn't, it wasn't

741
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,240
unlistenable, But if I had just
made my whole decision based on

742
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:46,400
that one episode, I might not
have gone back to others.

743
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,440
But now after listening to
today, I'm always looking for a

744
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,720
good show to add to what I
listen to in the morning and

745
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:53,680
things like that.
So I just think that's awesome

746
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,120
what you said there, Jonathan.
We did the Tonya Harding one for

747
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,720
it was you were wrong about and
that Tonya Harding one was the

748
00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:05,840
3rd one that I listened to
before I decided, you know what,

749
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,640
I get this, I get this format, I
get what they're doing here and

750
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:11,240
there's things that we can learn
from it.

751
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,080
There's a couple that I've got
in the queue that maybe we'll

752
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,160
get to, but I think they're
going to be.

753
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,880
Some people aren't going to
enjoy them as much, but there's

754
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,520
things that we can take away
from them as well.

755
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,960
I just wanted to say one more
thing before we got started

756
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:26,280
today.
And Jonathan, I hope you don't

757
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,760
mind me saying this.
Sid wanted to talk a little bit

758
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,200
about what's really going on
today.

759
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,080
Everybody who tuned into the
Super Bowl yesterday, I know Sid

760
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:34,720
wanted to talk about some of the
commercials.

761
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,640
Does everybody, is everyone on
board to sort of have a little

762
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,080
bit of a debriefing about that?
Is that cool with you, Jonathan?

763
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,320
Can I give one lesson?
Before we absolutely don't want

764
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:44,600
to Step on your toes there,
Jonathan.

765
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,680
No problem.
One thing that I think is really

766
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,480
important with this is they made
the audience care about the

767
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,080
outcome by making the outcome
human.

768
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,560
So it's proof that you don't
need a huge topic, you just need

769
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,000
a human connection, a clear
problem, real fiction, and a

770
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,360
host who's going to be willing
to follow that thread until it

771
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,000
hits on that human aspect.
The point is the shift and the

772
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,640
and the change in the human
that's involved in the story for

773
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,280
each of these episodes.
So just wanted to share that and

774
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,200
yes, let's.
And you're talking what you're

775
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:15,840
really talking about there,
because I don't want to over

776
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,280
gloss what you just said because
I think that's important.

777
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:19,880
You're talking about the
journey, right?

778
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,560
I mean, that's the thing that
all of us need to lean into in

779
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,200
our content is what is the
journey?

780
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,720
Because you're going to tell the
story about the journey, but you

781
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:29,760
also want the person who's
tuning in and listening to your

782
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,960
content to take part in that
journey as well.

783
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:33,600
Jonathan, is that what you're
really getting at?

784
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,960
Yeah, take part in the journey
and don't worry about a tidy

785
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,040
resolution.
Worry about the journey and the

786
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,600
impact that that journey has on
the listener.

787
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:43,360
And that's huge.
We can.

788
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,880
That's a huge take away,
Jonathan, because sometimes we

789
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,960
get so focused on the end that
we don't think about what we

790
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,760
went through to get there.
And that's it sort of goes back

791
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,120
to what Nick was saying and he
was thinking about how do I

792
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,080
build this story?
That's the part that matters.

793
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,440
It's the scars you got going
through it.

794
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,400
It's the lessons that you learn
going through it.

795
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,120
It's not necessarily what
happens at the end.

796
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,680
It's the journey you go through.
It's the journey that makes you

797
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,400
who you are.
And that's what people love to

798
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:11,920
hear.
They like to hear about the

799
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,600
failures that you had along the
way, the triumphs you had, the

800
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,200
days that you just felt like
quitting, the days you're like,

801
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,000
I can't do this anymore.
That is what makes something

802
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,000
worthy to listen to because
you're going to connect with

803
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,280
people there because guess what?
Everybody has those same

804
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,360
frustrations.
Everybody has those stubbed your

805
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,320
toe moments.
The things, the times when they

806
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,040
wanted to give up.
Those are the things which will

807
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,680
bring out a humanity in your
work that people will continue

808
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,760
to come back to you.
Because the truth is, the other

809
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,920
thing Jonathan was getting to is
these are people that want you

810
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:43,920
to come back to listen to
things.

811
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,880
You're building a relationship
with that person and you have to

812
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,840
understand that journey as
you're going through that.

813
00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:51,840
The meaning meaning of life is
the journey.

814
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:53,640
It will.
So if everybody has moved on

815
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,640
past that, I'm going to let Sid
take the stage.

816
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,920
Sid asked that we could talk
about some of the Obsession

817
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,680
Worthy commercials from
yesterday.

818
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:02,560
I don't know if you're allowed
to use the term.

819
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,120
So I'm going to say of the big
game.

820
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,080
So Sid, go ahead.
If you've got a comment to make

821
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,160
or you want to talk about that,
you've got the floor, my friend.

822
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,520
I think it's funny you called
them obsession worthy.

823
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,640
I will say the one that really
like caught my attention, I wish

824
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:21,000
Nick were here was Claude's
shout out to or they're pointing

825
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:25,760
the finger at ChatGPT over ads
in AII was like, oh, that's a

826
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,600
shot across the bow.
Like I thought that was fun.

827
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:33,280
But I think that for me, the top
2, I love the Dunkin' Donuts.

828
00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:36,640
I thought that was really great.
And then the Bud Light one with

829
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,360
the wedding where they chase the
keg of Beard down the hill, I

830
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,120
thought was really fun, too.
Yeah, of course.

831
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:44,760
Budweiser always does a great
job.

832
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,880
The horse and the eagle.
I had seen that one on TikTok

833
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:49,760
before it actually launched.
But what does everybody think

834
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,880
about the commercials?
Did you have a favorite?

835
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,120
I'm going to talk about the AI
one because I thought it was

836
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,560
interesting because I kind of, I
knew a little bit about it ahead

837
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,320
of time because I saw some
preview of that.

838
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,880
And the thing that I thought was
interesting is, man, that you're

839
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:04,680
right about throwing down the
gauntlet, dude.

840
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,640
But the other thing it did to me
was kind of reinforced that

841
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,720
staleness and that sort of very
rigid feeling of AI.

842
00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:13,960
And I don't know that that's
what Claude intended, but that's

843
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,000
kind of how it came across.
Did you feel the same way?

844
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,080
Said you.
Know that you say that I do you

845
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,960
think I picked that up with it?
I didn't realize that at the

846
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,160
time and honestly, the whole
thing would have been lost on me

847
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,400
had we not talked about the fact
that ChatGPT was putting ads

848
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,200
inside their platform.
I would not have understood it.

849
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,760
So just the fact that I because
I haven't seen any of the ads in

850
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,800
my ChatGPT, if I if they're
there, I'm not noticing them.

851
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:41,920
So that whole ad would have been
lost on me.

852
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,520
Yeah, I agree.
And I wonder how many people who

853
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,840
didn't tune into the podcasting
morning chat, it got lost on

854
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,480
them because honestly, that
first one they did because I

855
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,120
watched the whole thing.
The first one that I didn't make

856
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:54,640
the connection with the ads so
much.

857
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,320
What my connection was was boy
chat.

858
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,200
This this AI sounds like a robot
and why am I talking to a robot?

859
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,160
So said, I think that's the
problem with that particular ad.

860
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,000
I think they reinforced it.
I don't know exactly how many

861
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:08,840
there were.
I think they reinforced it in

862
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:10,120
the second one and the third
one.

863
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,480
But the first one is kind of, I
don't know that they made that

864
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,200
connection, but what does
everyone else think?

865
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:15,200
What?
Did anybody else have any

866
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,080
standout obsession worthy I I'll
take it credit for saying that

867
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,480
obsession worthy commercials in
yesterday's big game.

868
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:25,800
I think the Pepsi commercial is
very interesting, how they use

869
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,400
the Coke bears.
I don't know if you guys ever

870
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,480
noticed that.
I thought the Duncan commercial

871
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,880
was hysterical.
It was just a style check with

872
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,080
everybody in it.
But that Coke one, both my wife

873
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:37,880
and I are like, wait, that's the
wrong.

874
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,320
I mean, the Pepsi one with the
bears that I thought that was

875
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,600
kind of brilliant.
All right, Alex, I'm going to

876
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,720
put you on the spot.
So what about the Dunkin' Donuts

877
00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:49,200
commercial really made you lean
into that one?

878
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,640
It was just all nostalgic with
all the people.

879
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,200
In it and.
The fact that the Patriots lost

880
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,960
made it even better because
that's their coffee.

881
00:44:57,240 --> 00:45:00,040
I just love the fact that they
had Jennifer Aniston and with

882
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,280
Tom Brady at the end, and then
it was just a whole take on

883
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,000
Goodwill hunting.
So it was.

884
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,200
It was great.
You know, one of the ads, and I

885
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,000
don't know if anybody else
caught up, the one that really

886
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,120
was a weird ad.
It was just like on the screen

887
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:12,480
and just words going across the
screen.

888
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,160
I don't remember what the take
away from it was, but the whole

889
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:16,920
time I'm watching, it's like,
where is this going?

890
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,320
It was just like it was a
screenshot and there was words

891
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,320
coming across the screen.
I again, I don't know that those

892
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,680
land and I think about how much
money these advertisers spent

893
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:28,520
and did it land.
Go ahead, Ashley.

894
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:30,960
I saw that one too.
If we're talking about the same

895
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,400
thing, I think it was kind of
like a karaoke track and it was

896
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,760
an ad for Bitcoin.
And if you hadn't seen the end,

897
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,080
you'd still be wondering what
that ad was for.

898
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:41,880
That's right.
It was for Coinbase.

899
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,080
I'd forgotten, Ashley, because
the whole time I'm watching

900
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,040
this, my son and my wife are
watching this with me.

901
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,080
I'm going what in the world?
I actually for a second thought

902
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,680
that, yeah, like you said,
karaoke was perfect.

903
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,360
I thought maybe somebody in the
control room got a hold of

904
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,120
something.
They were hijacking the the

905
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,280
broadcast because it just didn't
make any sense to me.

906
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:01,320
Did anybody else have anything
they wanted to share?

907
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,360
Well, I just wanted to share
that we got to remember that a

908
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,280
lot of these companies, they're
big companies that are spending

909
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:08,880
a lot of money.
It's a lot of money.

910
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:13,680
But what they're looking for is
an uptake of like 2% of their

911
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,040
land of their ads to land
throughout the rest of the year

912
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,920
based on recognition.
So the the ads pay for

913
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,440
themselves actually when they do
that.

914
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:24,680
And that's what they're looking
for.

915
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,480
They're really honing in on that
brand recognition in for Super

916
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,720
Bowl commercials so that they
can get that, you know, uptick

917
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:34,160
on the rest of their ads that
they're going to be landing

918
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,280
after.
So really just diving into that,

919
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,600
that makes it makes it make more
sense when you see some of the

920
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,600
ads that are aired because
nobody knows Coinbase at this

921
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,000
point, so they're just looking
for some people to recognize

922
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,000
them so they can land the rest
of their ads for the rest of the

923
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:50,120
year.
Yeah, absolutely.

924
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,400
And I like what Simbaza put in
the in the chat.

925
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,320
He said podcast advertising is
to invoke or provoke.

926
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,920
Talking about it is
subconsciously in your mind.

927
00:46:57,920 --> 00:46:59,760
And I think that's a you nailed
it, Simbaza.

928
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,440
That is so true.
And that's it kind of goes along

929
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,760
with what Jonathan said.
Well, I'm going to wrap us up

930
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:06,360
for today.
I just want to thank everybody

931
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,080
for joining us today.
Make sure you come back

932
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,600
tomorrow, join us again.
So you have a great day today

933
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,040
and again, thanks for joining us
today.