442. Why Song Exploder’s Fleetwood Mac Episode Is Gold for Indie Podcasters

0:04 Good morning podcasting Morning chat. Today is Tuesday, January 27th, 2026 and today inside song exploders storytelling magic. We explore how walking listeners through emotion, choices and uncertainty makes this podcast endlessly re listenable. So if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, bottom left hand side of the screen and share it. However, Clubhouse lets you. And if you're catching us via podcast, YouTube, LinkedIn, etcetera, please share this episode with a fellow podcaster. And now give us about 30 seconds and we'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here. Good morning again podcasting Morning Chat. Thanks so much for being here.

1:23 I am your host, Mark Ronic and on stage with me currently we have Jonathan Howard, producer Ashley Feller, Ralph Estep, Dr. Faye, Sid Meadows and BC Babbles. And if you want to learn more about any of those fine people that I just mentioned, just go to podcastingmorningchat.com. Head over to the about section and you can see everyone's bio. See how you can connect with them outside of the podcasting morning chat if you so choose. And yes, we did cancel yesterday's show. I did have power. I'm grateful for that. I never lost power, but I know a lot of people were dealing with it, whether it was on this team or somebody listening. I just figured, you know what, let's let everybody focus on being warm and safe.

2:08 I felt podcasting discussions could all go on hold and we could pick up things today. But before we do pick up things, we're missing Nick this morning who is without power. He's from the West Virginia area, and he's sending us texts and pictures right now via a text string that I have going on. And he's definitely in the thick of it in that area. Lots of downed trees, roads look pretty treacherous. So good luck to Nick. They're actually staying with friends 'cause as some of you know, he's got a little one there. So I'm sure not good conditions in their house.

2:50 So they decided to go to someone else's. So good luck to the null backs. And I was curious if we could just go down the line, maybe rapid fire this. I'm curious, say if we can go down the line starting with Jonathan, say where you're from and then how much snow you got. And then if you want any power outage, if you're dealing with one, which I'm guessing most of us have power that are here, but Jonathan, take it away. All right, Poughkeepsie, NY in nearly 2 feet of snow. Wow. But we kept power the whole time. That's awesome that because I would imagine with three little three dogs, that would be a pain in the butt and having no power. Yeah, cool. All right.

3:31 And Ashley, you're up. I'm from Panama City Beach, FL, we are not participating in this winter storm y'all. That's a good point. Forgot about that. And I knew that. Just forgot. Let's go to Ralph. How about you, Ralph? Yes, we got about a foot of snow here, but worse than that, we've got like a Krispy Kreme glaze on everything here. So the ice on top of that well, but I will say the cows are managing well through the storm. I raised Black Angus cows here on the farm and they seem to be coping with the the cold. It's going to be 1° today, so that's going to be an interesting day. But thanks for checking in. And I have power. I've got 2 backup generators so even if the power goes out I'm in pretty good shape. Yeah, you're lucky. That's something that I always say I want to invest in and then realize I haven't invested when I need it. So that's a great thing to have those generators. Ralph.

4:19 All right, Dr. coming to you. Yeah, I'm in Nashville, TN, and although we only had about two inches built up on the railing of our deck, it's the ice, man. It's the ice that is just killing us. And you could lay there at night and hear pop, pop. And that's like a tree that has either come. I mean, you see film of them combusting and they fall and sometimes they miss your car and sometimes they do not miss your car. And you've been dealing with power outages on and off too, right? Dealing with power outages on and off the house across the street from this caught on fire.

5:05 It's been quite a weekend. I'm sure. Well, I'm glad that you are safe. I'm glad you still have power as well. And wishing the best to your neighbors. I know you. Yeah. You said there was a fire. You told us over the weekend. So I hope everybody. 'S doing OK. Yeah, their gas water tank blew up. Wow, that's scary. How about you, Sid, in the Texas area? Good. Morning, everybody. We're in the Dallas Fort Worth area or North Fort Worth, and we don't have any snow. We have about 3 inches of sleet and ice. It does have a glaze on it like Ralph was talking about. It's compacted down and fortunately, because we did not have freezing rain, we only had sleet.

5:48 Sleet does not stick to the trees and so we did not have any trees down, no power lines down, no power outage. We were prepared for it, but we did not have any of that. So thank goodness we got sleet and not freezing rain. Good. I'm glad you guys are doing OK. And then we'll go to BC. Go ahead BC. Yeah, over here on the eastern side of Lake Norman, just north of Charlotte, we got all sleet and all a whopping .1 inches of it. It's kind of half melted at this point. I'm sure there's plenty of black ice out there, so we're going to be very careful going out to work this morning. Just fingers crossed at this point. Yeah, thank you. BC Yeah. So you're in Charlotte area.

6:29 I'm in western North Carolina. We got a little bit of snow, nothing massive, maybe an inch or two from what I could tell. And we did get a lot of ice. Woke up yesterday to a beautiful shimmering landscape outside my window. But that also meant my driveway, which if you don't remember, I live on a mountain so I've got a nice winding long driveway that heads to the bottom of the mountain that was also shimmering with ice. So we weren't going anywhere yesterday. I didn't. I don't have enough ice melt or anything else to really, really take care of the driveway. But it didn't melt over the day.

7:12 But of course, like most of you, it is freezing cold here. It's 13° here in this area. I know there are some areas a lot colder. OK, normally we don't spend a lot of time talking about the weather, but it was a significant event here in the US for about half the country. I feel like we're at least bracing for it, maybe not as affected, but at least bracing for it. So I figured let's talk a little bit about it and make sure the crew is doing doing OK. OK, let's dig in to Obsession Worthy podcasts, usually a Monday feature, but since we canceled yesterday, we moved it to today. So Jonathan leads the charge with this.

7:53 And I'll let Jonathan first maybe breakdown the purpose of Obsession Worthy podcast and then set us up for what episode and show we're going to be discussing today. Take it away. The idea behind Obsession Worthy Podcast is looking at podcasts and seeing, you know, while we may not do them exactly the same, what aspects we can pull into our own podcast that'll help us have more Obsession Worthy Podcast ourselves, do different things and just be exposed to what others are doing on their podcast to learn a little bit about what's working and what's not. And today we're diving into Song Exploder, the episode 150, I believe the Fleetwood Mac episode, which is Go Your Own Way, and it breaks down that song.

8:38 And we're going to talk about how that breakdown kind of builds a story and how you can build that story in your own podcast. I love the song, so I was excited to see this and I was excited to see that we were doing a Song Exploder episode because I really haven't ever listened to Song Exploder. I've seen some stuff because I think they've had some TV series as well. Am I mistaken on that? No, I believe you're right. Yeah, I think they did. I think I saw it on Netflix once or twice. But yeah, I was excited to dig into this and especially this song. It's a great song. And I'm curious because we are playing clips there are there is some music, the song playing from time to time in the background. And actually, yeah, you'll hear more about that in a second.

9:19 So we'll see how this goes. As far as YouTube and the other platforms, if they allow us to keep this episode up, we'll see. Let me go into the concept just quickly for those that don't know. It's very different. And as a podcast, each episode kind of takes one track and it pulls it apart, but not in like a technical way. The artist is actually talking you through like the emotional decisions, what was going on behind the work, behind the scenes and what they were trying to say, like what worked, what didn't, what they changed, all of that. So it really is a different type of podcast and it's very intimate because you're listening to somebody explain not just the process, but like the the reliving, the moment when everything sort of clicked in.

10:03 So I think that's one of the things that makes it really, really powerful. And the song is the end product, but the real story is everything that got us to that point with that song. So for today's episode, we're going to look at how this podcast builds a story 1st and how it builds that story with a unique format. And then we'll talk about some of the repeatable obsession worthy aspects of it. What they do is they turn the creation into a narrative arc that follows this, the stakes. So why it mattered to them, the spark What? Where was the inspiration? Obviously we have the messy middle, which is where they're working on everything, putting the song together. The final choice, which is what brings it to its final state, and then the payoff, which is when you hear that final track, which I will say it actually did change the way I listen to Go Your Own Way.

10:56 Like when I listen to this and I listen to it a few times, but it really does change the way you listen to the song. I think that's one of the cool things about this show, yeah, Is that we really get to learn about a song in a whole new way. And I think it does in fact change, at least for many and definitely me. It does change my perspective of the song after hearing how it was created, why it was created, etcetera. Mark, I think the first clip is the setup clip. Yep, I got it all right. Here we go. Lindsey Buckingham is a singer-songwriter, A guitarist, and a producer. In 1974, he joined the band Fleetwood Mac, along with Stevie Nicks, his girlfriend at the time.

11:41 A few years later, in 1977, Fleetwood Mac released the album Rumours, which would go on to sell over 40 million copies and become the eighth highest selling album in history. In this episode, Lindsey Buckingham breaks down Go Your Own Way, the song that he wrote for that album about his relationship with Stevie Nicks. This is the same intro for pretty much every episode. He will, and he actually steps back after this intro. That's kind of what he does, and then the artist takes control of the episode. But it's a really simple intro. It talks quickly about the premise of the show, what the song is, and what they're going to be talking about. It's clean, consistent, and easily recognizable. And the audio on this podcast is phenomenal as well. I don't know if we can hear it as clearly on Clubhouse. When you say the audio is phenomenal, you're talking about the quality.

12:33 Yeah, real quick. I think Sid had something. Jonathan, let's go to Sid. I really enjoyed this episode, Jonathan, and I'm a huge Fleetwood Mac fan. Of course, I've ripped in the 80s so that makes sense. A huge Stevie Nicks fan. So it was really great to hear the story and I love the setup of this. I mean he clearly tells you what to expect and then he just goes away. So I am curious though, like how did he do you know how he pulled all the clips or were those people like given questions to ask? Or I mean I'm just curious about how he actually created the episode when he sets it up and then he goes away. Any ideas? I believe the way that he does it is he does kind of set the tone for them, but he handles all all the connections in the back end.

13:21 So he will probably, he probably has questions that are asked. So he's actually interviewing the people, it's just he's not making himself present. That's. How I understood it, Ashley threw something is that would I get it right? You threw me 100. I think I saw another show that was talking about the production of this show where he explains that he essentially interviews the subject matter and then edits himself out, but does a great job of asking those leading question. I can only imagine how much the length of the recording and the amount of editing to get this story, the way the story is told in 22 minutes, that's probably an hour or two worth of like content that he's got to filter through to create the story the way the story was created. So that in itself, I think, would be considered an art. Oh yeah.

14:14 And you know, content editing is an art and it's, it can be challenging. You know, I'm working with a client right now who's starting a podcast. He's and he's been recording interviews and each of his interviews, you know, we're trying to get the these episodes down to under an hour, preferably 30 to 45 minutes if if possible. But he's giving us like 4 hours worth of content. So it is a real challenge to have to go through lots and lots of material and find the right ones that really help you tell your story. But I do think, yes, it's an art and I do think it's something that would be beneficial for more people to do because it's not done so much. But I think it just gives us a different way of listening and enjoying a podcast, you know, with the it's true storytelling, right?

15:06 It's not just a quote UN quote, just a conversation. This is a really thoughtful, well produced podcast and and I think we can learn from that I. Think BC had thrown a pepper. All right, and for those who don't know what we're talking about, he isn't literally throwing pepper across the room. That's an emoji to get our attention. So we know somebody wants to chime in. Go ahead BC. Give us some time. We'll we'll get there literally at some point. So going back to the quality that Jonathan was talking about, it really is just so crisp and clear. And this is, I thought about kind of going back a little bit to last week's analysis where this guy really knows how to place himself in a good cadence. He gets a lot of bang for his buck. He's really relaxed as well.

15:51 He's got a great flow, great inflection with his voice. And it took me a while to realize this is one of the first times I didn't mind that the actual lead up into the meat of the episode was several minutes long. And correct me if I'm wrong, Jonathan, I listed last night, but he has the kind of a he's got the intro. He talks about the premise of the show. He then has a bit of a scripted story leading into a promotional bit for the sponsor of the episode. And then after all that, he gets into the actual this is the song about this episode. His this is the background and then gets to the meet and because that quality and that flow is just so nice, I did not mind that it took us a while to get there and I found that as a really nice surprise.

16:37 This could be a whole conversation in itself, right? Because a lot of times we encourage podcasters to get right to it, right? No big build up. Don't take 5 minutes or more to get into the episode, Just get into it right and give a short intro. I do think that in some cases you have to take that with a grain of salt because I think we're often giving that advice to people who are newer to podcasting, right? And and that's because what I often find is that a new podcaster can sometimes create a long drawn out introduction for the episode with unnecessary discussion, unnecessary points.

17:19 And it just feels a little too long, right? But when you know what you're doing after some time and you really take some time to learn production and production value, then I think, you know, if you know what you're doing, those intros can last a little longer. Because to BC's point, it kept his interest all the way through. And that's really the ultimate goal, right, Was to keep people's interests. That's what keeps them stick, keeps them on the episode, listening all the way through, if you can keep their attention and interest. Ralph, did you have something or was that? Yeah, it was you, Ralph. Go ahead. I was just going to say the other thing. I think the reason you can get away with that, Mark, is I think it's an expectation because we understand the high professionalism of this podcast. And it's sort of one of those things you could you just expect that there's going to be some commercials at the front end of this.

18:08 And I think that that goes along because it's commercialized. Yeah, that makes sense too. And I think that you could also make a case that the audience of this particular episode, they're interested in the content. They're probably fans of Fleetwood Mac, right. So the build up is just building anticipation, excitement, etcetera. And if you're thinking, well, I'm never going to do a a podcast about Fleetwood Mac or one of their songs. Well, true. And you have your own niche and I'm sure you can bring in someone or something special that your audience would anticipate would be interested in hearing. It's just a matter of how you frame it and and what you're framing for your audience.

18:53 If it's something of interest to them, that is their Fleetwood Mac that that is their go your own way, right? If you're specifically talking about something that's of interest to that niche, I hope that makes sense. But Jonathan, take it away. The other thing I will add is there are 354 episodes. This is 150. He's gotten it down pretty down pat. I'm guessing with 354 episodes of Song Exploder. That's a lot of editing. Just imagine that too. We will see now that Lindsay Buckingham is going to take over the narration of the episode and he begins to build this story arc in his own unique way that tells the story of go your own way. So the origin moment, Mick Fleetwood hears Frozen Love, which is a song that him and Stevie Nicks had done in their previous endeavor as a band and he calls and asked Lindsay to join the band.

19:47 Lindsay says, well, you'll have to take my girlfriend too. Obviously the girlfriend was Stevie Nicks. So that's how they ended up as Fleetwood Mac, and it's really setting the stakes for why the song mattered to them. And that's kind of what the clip is that follows, which is the second clip. Written almost as a stream of consciousness, I was just chunking away on those chords and coming up with the lyrics to go with it. Loving you isn't the right thing to do. If you start with the first lyric, loving you isn't the right thing to do. It sounds like you're beginning a conversation with someone. There was nothing about it that was thought out. It was just the raw expression of the emotion behind the song. How can I ever change things that I feel? I sort of was coming to terms with the fact that I may not be over this person and at the same time I'm aware that I've got to accept what's happened and move on. Right from the onset of the episode, we're not even 5 minutes in yet.

20:59 And from the onset of the song you are flushed with emotion. It is like, OK, wow. I just sit there and go. I can't imagine breaking up with somebody, still being in love with them and having to write a song about it that they're going to sing with me. That's an interesting, that's an interesting setup. From the moment it starts, loving you isn't the right thing to do. And then he talks about how there was a whole bunch of people that were getting split up as part of the band and you know, how it was written as just a stream of consciousness and the emotions were poured into that particular, you know, that particular song. So the emotions are raw, real. 5 minutes into the podcast and you're like, OK, this song has real meaning behind it. And as I always say, stories are driven by universal emotions, and heartbreak is a big, powerful one. And I was just thinking, all of us are going to probably be walking around the rest of the day humming go your own way. I think it's going to be an ear worm now for the rest of the day for many of us.

22:05 Yep, I'm sure it will be. Welcome to the podcasting morning chat this morning. Yeah, he caps off that emotional start by further explaining, like, the status of things during rumors. He'd broken up with Stevie. John and Christine McVeigh, who had been married, were broken up. So it was really an exercise of how you compartmentalize your life and everything that's going on in it because they were all going through going through it while still. And I think three of them were writing this song together. The three that were going through, you know, the divorces and the breakups and all that were writing the song together. So that's sort of the kick off to the messy middle. It was messy doing this song, and then we talk about the different layers and the textures in the song that they're putting together and what was working, what wasn't working and things like that.

22:55 So that's building the spark, the reason why they song was important, why it mattered to them. Now we're going into how to act the things they had to figure out. So that's the next. One, and that's clip 3. All right, here we go. I said Nick. I think this pattern going from snare to Tom snare to Tom not in the chorus but in the verses would be just great. But Mick is someone who he's playing strictly from the heart and from the gut, and as such, he just has to do what feels right to him. So when I showed him the pattern, he couldn't actually play it. And finally, I'm just saying to him, look, I mean, is there a way you can paraphrase that to make it your own? Which he does.

23:50 He opens up the kick and it keeps A-44 going on it. And instead of going from snare to Tom, which felt wrong to him, he's playing the Tom across the beat and letting the kick drum be the middle beat. The details of this song are becoming the meat of the of the podcast and very small details. I would not have listened to the drum pattern that is in Go Your Own Way and The Rolling Stones song quite the same way. But those small details are becoming part of the whole story as and those pieces are actually supporting, supported by what you know, the clips that are being played.

24:33 Even these little details make a compelling story. Does anybody have any? Yeah, I'm curious what's going on in the chat here. I see Ashley saying something about that being her favorite part in BC chiming in. Fill us in. Thank you. So what I loved about this part is I believe it gives non musicians a way to listen to music in a way they might not already. As a musician, when I listen to music, sometimes I'll tell myself before I listen, OK, I'm only gonna listen to the bass or I'm only gonna listen to the drums or what have you. So what I like about this part of the podcast is that they break down the stems and they demonstrate those creative decisions that amounted to the finished product. And I love how they go back and say, hey, I wanted you to. He wanted Nick Fleetwood to play the drums like someone inspired by that Rolling Stones track, but he wasn't able to play it. So they ended up doing their own paraphrase thing with it, and that ended up being a big part of the song. So I really love that part of the podcast for breaking it down in that way.

25:40 Yeah, that's interesting. And I, it's cool to have a musician on stage to call something like that out. I do that. I do that a lot. And I'm not a musician, at least not a trained 1. I I certainly have the bug but I don't really do much with it. But I tend to listen, especially with harmonies. I like to listen to the different harmonies and try to 0 in and hear that particular part. But like again, I'm not a musician so I don't even know what to call each of the different harmonies but I do listen for them. It's fascinating to me BC did you want to chime in? Much of what Ashley was saying, this is just a great way to really revolutionize the experience of even what's been a long time. You know, this is not a recent song.

26:21 This has been out for a couple decades and I think this is a great way to really expand upon the experience for musicians and non musicians alike. What I was singing The Shadow, this part talking about the same thing was one of my favorite parts but then another and I don't want to give too much assuming it might be another one of the segments here or another. One of the clips is when they discuss the lyrics and how Stevie played into giving the more verbal aspect of the song. Yeah, thank you BC and I appreciate you guys chatting a little bit in the chat about it. That helps me know who to go to, but feel free to chime in on stage as well with all of this feedback. This is good stuff. Thank you, Sid. Go for it.

27:03 One of the things I liked about this show was how it did give those of us that are not musicians an inside look at to at how songs are created. Like what's the creative process that they go through? How did they come up with the lyrics? The meaning behind this particular song is as we talk about the different stems and which I it's a new term to me and the drums. And I mean it just gives you this really inside look at how these songs are created and the creativity that goes along with it that musicians don't just some of them do, but don't just sit down and come up with a with a song. So I really enjoyed that aspect of getting a behind the scenes look of how these were created. Now, Sid, I know this doesn't feel like comparing apples to apples, but theoretically, I mean, could you do something like that?

27:51 Could you? And I know all the work involved, you already called that out, but let's just pretend for a minute that it isn't a lot of work, or maybe someone else is doing it for you. Could you do something like that in the office furniture space? Yeah, absolutely. We could. We could talk about the process of designing a new product because you know, when you see a piece of furniture like, oh, well, that's really great. What you don't realize is that a piece of furniture takes anywhere between 18 and 24 months from the time it is conceptualized to the time it's available to market, in some cases even longer than that. There are companies that spend years working on product development, so you could definitely tell a story about product development and conceptualizing with the designer, what they go through, the testing that they go through and be testing, meaning getting IT feedback from architects and designers.

28:41 And yeah, there's a whole process here that could be broken down in a story like this about how products come to market. It's a great idea, actually. Yeah, I feel like it is, especially because you know, when you hear, yeah, this episode's going to be about how a how a piece of office furniture was created, you may cock your head and say, well, OK, right. But if you're doing it in a way similar to how Song Exploder does it, there's something interesting about that. Really learning those behind the scenes, the messiness, getting from concept to production, that kind of thing. I think that there could be something really interesting there. Absolutely. And Ashley Sid brought up stems, and that's a new term to him.

29:22 And I saw you define it in the chat. Will you define it for the rest of us? It's just the individual parts of the song that make up the whole thing heard separately. So theoretically, is that that's similar in podcasting terms? It's similar to having separate tracks, right? If you had three people on the show and each of them had their own recording, would that technically be a STEM? Yeah, each one would be a step. OK. Yeah, that makes sense. OK, cool. All right, Jonathan, take it away. And Sid was the furniture thing. I'm reminded of the scene in Devil Wears Prada where the you know how the blue sweater got to the bottom of the bargain bin? I'm curious, Sid, did you see that movie and do you know the reference? I figured.

30:05 Yeah, I figured you'll have to all get it for you. This is kind of as we're in the messy middle, What Sid said is, you know, gives you that deep inside view of how a song is put together. And that's really cool for those of us who don't ever get to see that. And then we continue to get the story, the deep, emotional story of what's happening behind the scenes as he explores the vocals, the organ, and the desire for the song to be slightly more raw and direct in the next clips. So #4. Christine played the organ. It was clearly a guitar song and I was not wanting her piano textures and her weaving around that.

30:54 She could do so beautifully. I just wanted to keep it very direct. You can go your own way, go your own way. You can call it another lonely day. There's a lot of oomph behind the lead vocal and go your own way because there was a lot of resolve behind the subject matter. I was feeling a lot of that subject matter as being something I was living and so it was a bit cathartic. We kind of go through and he talks a little bit about some of the things that went that Stevie went through as a child, some things that they were going through in the moment.

31:41 One of the things that he says is the the lying. You can go your own way. You can call it another lonely day is because Stevie often kind of had this rhythm of life where she would get bored being in this one place for so long. So she'd always want to move and go her own way. Obviously led to loneliness. So that was one of the things that he mentioned in the episode. And it was that one hit a little hard. You know, that's like, oh man, just the way that she grew up and that's the way it went. And then we hit the acoustic guitar moment, which the acoustic guitar almost didn't make it into the into the song, but they were living with the song for a while and listening to the song and it felt a little bit off balance. So the tension that's created by the vocals is kind of balanced out by the guitar as a response.

32:34 But it created this really interesting balance and some disorientation. And we'll see the resolution that in the final clip, but that's really leads into the big payoff of the song. So as you can see, we kind of go through the the story from start to finish in a unique way with this podcast, but. I think BC has something Jonathan. Okay, awesome. Go ahead BC I. Just wanted to mention a tiny caveat with Stevies part in the lyrics here. If I recall from the story and what I found pretty compelling about her perspective on this as well, is that the reason she grew up or eventually kind of grew into this person who didn't like to stay planted for too long and wanted to constantly shift is because her. It was mentioned her father was always changing or losing jobs and therefore she as a child always had to shift around. And so she never grew up with that understanding or perception of rooting somewhere and having to always be essentially prepared to be on the move.

33:35 And so that translated to her adulthood as not wanting to be anywhere for too long. Thank you BC appreciate that. And Jonathan, you want me to go to the next clip? Yeah, we can go to the next clip. It'll wrap it up pretty nicely. OK, here we go. The new Fleetwood Mac single, he takes a beat, he goes, I don't know about that one. And I was able to call up the station in that moment after hearing that and be put through to be Mitchell Reese while a song was on. And, you know, he got on the phone. I said, hey, B, this is Lindsey Buckingham here. Oh, hi, Lindsey. You just played my song Go Your Own Way, and you said you weren't sure about it. What what What didn't you like about it?

34:16 He's saying, well, you know, I couldn't find the beat. I mean, oh, OK. I mean, that was an element to go your own way. But obviously, it didn't make any difference in the long run. I was proud of what I was hearing on the radio and that's all that mattered. That guitar and the vocals being a little bit off it. It did when you really the beat is hard to find, but he was happy with it anyway. There was, you know, this drama about whether it was going to go over well, it didn't matter, but did make a difference for the song in the long run. And he was proud of what he was hearing, which brings us to that resolution in the story overall. So I loved how they brought in some of the, you know, unsure about how the song was going to go. This they lived with it for a while. They added the acoustic guitar and in the end, with all that was said and done, they were happy with what they heard on the radio, which, you know, is a good thing. This was really a five part story and it had five key elements.

35:20 One was what's at stake that gives you the reason why something mattered. 2 is what kicked it off. What was the origin moment, which we talked about? Then the messy middle, what wasn't working, the decision that changed everything, which is your pivot at the end. The decision in this case was adding the acoustic guitar and then what the finished result is. And that's the payoff. And for this, obviously it was the song doing really well-being one that we're listening to decades after it was created. That's kind of how you would story tell something like this. You'd have those five parts and then I know Sid wanted to speak. I actually had a question for Ashley before we head out. There's the resident musician and songwriter. How do you know when a song is done? Like he talked about, the song is done. This is it, we're moving on.

36:06 How do you know? Like, is there a feeling, a sign? Is it just like how do you know when a song is done? Said that is one of the hardest questions ever. So I always say when your mix engineer says it's done, and I recommend that if you're ever producing your own music, you bring in a secondary mix engineer because you could go on and on and on forever. So I would say when the mix engineer says it's. And such an interesting question because easily applied to a podcast as well, how do we know when a podcast is actually done when you know, sure, we can edit all the way through and then say, OK, you know that now it's done.

36:47 But for many of us, that edit can go on and on and on if we let it. Ralph, did you want to add something? Yeah, I was going to trumpet what you just said because it also takes a little bravado, if you think about it. Hear this dude driving in his car, he hears his music on the radio, and he calls up the DJ and be like, oh, I don't care if he kind of like saying, I don't care if you like it or not. That was the whole intent. And I think we can all learn from that, is that sometimes we've got to have a little bravado with our content and be willing to stand behind and say, you know, I'm happy with this. I'm not going to go back and edit this again. This is what it is. If you don't like it, you're not my audience. But I think it takes a little bravado to do that. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think that for me personally, Jonathan, what makes Song Exploder an obsession worthy show isn't just the music, right? Sure, the music definitely adds something to it, but it's it's also the way that the process is revealed. That's why I was asking Sid about, you know, could you do this with office furniture?

37:47 Because this show takes listeners inside, like Jonathan was saying, uncertainty, decision making, emotional context. And it does that with intention and it does that with structure. So the big take away here for me is that sure, people can connect sometimes with polished results, but I think that they really connect with the moments where things are being figured out, right? The stakes matter, the origins matter, the Jonathan said the messy middle matters and the choices that you make along the way give your story weight. So for your own podcast, this doesn't mean you need to change your topic or format. Like I'm not suggesting to Sid to now turn everything around and do that. But it does mean that you can experiment with how much of the process you let your listeners hear or what process you're going to tell them about.

38:39 You can explain why something mattered before you explain how it worked. You can frame small decisions as moments or meaningful moments. You can let uncertainty live in the episode long enough for the listener to feel it with you. That's what Song Exploder reminds us of. It's that trust that's built through proof. So when you say something mattered, you show why. When you describe a decision, you let the audience hear it. That kind of clarity, that kind of honesty, it makes people want to come back. So I think the question to sit with after today is where can you let your audience into the moment that something clicked, something changed or almost didn't happen, whether it's your story or your guest's story.

39:27 That's I believe the approach to take, especially like, since most of you are a lot of you, I know, interview people, but you can apply that logic that Song Exploder uses to help a guest tell their story. Particularly moments where, like I said, something clicked or changed or maybe it didn't happen. That's what reels an audience in. That's what gets them interested in your guest and interested in coming back to hear more episodes with other guests. I just want to say there's a way that you can do this. Instead of just talking about the steps that you take, ask them. If you're interviewing somebody, ask them questions like what they believed or what they tried or what went wrong, because those are going to bring your audience into the emotional process of creating something. When you ask those questions and you build out a story in that way, you're getting much more emotional. It's not the process.

40:23 Well, what did you do to do this? Why? I got my people together and we created all the parts of song. We made a song that's not an interesting episode, but what you believed, what you tried, what went wrong, Those are that's where the interest comes in, in the episode. And I had one thing that I was going to say about this. And while appreciating the song is really important, the power in this podcast is making all of the creators feel seen in their own creative process. I think that's something that's really powerful in this podcast. Yeah, I agree. Great point, Jonathan. I think Ashley also wanted to chime in as well. Go ahead, Ashley. I just wanted to chime in also about the quality of the questions.

41:05 You might not even know that this podcast had an interview aspect to it unless they told you those questions have been edited out. But those questions are so good. We don't need to hear the interviewer. And I just think that that all goes back to considering the quality of your questions to carry that narrative. Yeah. And it would be so nice for us as podcasters to hear what those questions were, right as an as an audience, Yeah, it doesn't matter. I agree. But as podcasters here breaking down an obsession worthy show, it would be really helpful for us. But I think you're right, it does have a lot to do with asking quality questions. Yes, Sid, go ahead. So I was thinking about this.

41:49 I wonder if he asked multiple questions or if he just asked one question. He asked one question that said, tell me about the story of how you wrote this song. And he just stopped. And the artist went on and on and brought in all these different things. And then he got, I mean, I doubt that's what happened. But you know, when you think about the power of this story, it could have all come from one really great opening question. I agree it could. And my guess is, yeah, it was more than one question. The details that they provide, I would just be shocked if they just sat there and told the whole story from start to finish and the the interviewer just kind of sat back and listened. But yeah, those questions, whatever it is, whether it's one or fifteen of them, I think that that's really the key to delivering quality content to your audience. And I'll drive it home again.

42:46 I think it's really like Jonathan was saying, it's more about the struggle, the wins, the losses along the way more so than just here's how we put the song together. I think that's really the probably one of the biggest takeaways from today's breakdown. Speaking of breakdown, as a lot of, you know, on Thursdays, although now I think we're going to do it every other Thursday, we do evaluations where somebody, an independent podcaster submits a podcast episode for us to share our thoughts, our feedback, opinions, etcetera, areas for improvement, what they're doing well, etcetera. And last week, episode 440 of the podcasting morning chat, we evaluated Bernie Borge's Life Fulfilled podcast.

43:33 And admittedly, I get nervous evaluating shows of podcasters that I know. Bernie and I don't know each other super well, but we have a solid connection and always enjoy catching up at Podfest. So last week though, I I was feeling a little uneasy because I just don't know how it's going to be received, especially from somebody that knows me. I don't. I didn't want anyone to get hurt, right? Even though I think we do this in a very tasteful way, sometimes people can get offended. But once again, I wanted to share that we have another satisfied listener. Podcaster Bernie left us a comment on YouTube. He left us a comment on LinkedIn.

44:14 And here's what he said on LinkedIn. Mark, thanks to you and your podcasting morning chat team for the constructive feedback on my Life Filled podcast. I listened intently, took many notes, and have documented action plans from this feedback. I've already even updated my artwork so he's talking about his cover art. We had some feedback for him and I did look at it. He didn't simplify it. He did make the name of the podcast bigger appear bigger on in that 3000 by 3000 pixel cover art. And Sid, I think it was you who encouraged him that we want to see him smile and he added a smiling face to that. So it's just fun and exciting to hear podcasters really take what we share to heart and get excited about it and go and instantly make changes.

45:06 So if you're interested in having your podcast evaluated, Ashley will put in the show notes for you, a link to the application to apply. We'd have not picked somebody for next Thursday, a week from this coming Thursday. So if you want to be thrown into that pool, we could pick yours for this very next evaluation episode. So come check that out. And Jonathan, thank you again for a wonderful breakdown of what what makes these obsession worthy podcasts so obsession worthy. And we'll look forward to doing it again next week. So if there are, if there's a popular podcast episode that you're interested in that you want us to break down, let us know about it and we'll throw it by Jonathan.

45:55 But he has a whole arsenal of different shows and episodes that we can break down for you as well. That's going to do it for this week. Reminder that we are here usually every Monday through Friday, 7:00 AM Eastern, unless weather or illness or something out of the ordinary stops us. You can listen to us live on Clubhouse, YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, all the places we put all those links in the show notes. Ralph, did you want to add something before we wrap up? Yeah, I just wanted to add one thing, and we learned this from Bernie. Actually, Bernie reached out to me. He reached out to Sid on LinkedIn. One of the things I'm going to tell people is in this community, reach out to other people in the community and connect with them on LinkedIn and other platforms because you can learn a great deal from other people. And it's just a great way to build this community. So Mark, I just wanted to add to that because, you know, it's just because we had them on the show is now I have a connection. So I just want to thank you for that. And I just want to encourage everybody else that to make that grow your, your, your people in your community as well. Such a great point.

46:54 Thank you, Ralph. I appreciate that and cool to hear that Bernie reached out to you and Sid as well. Thank you all for doing such great work and really serving this independent podcaster community. Really appreciate you as well. So we're back tomorrow, 7:00 AM Eastern, covering all the news and headlines around the world of podcasting. We'll talk about them and how they might affect us as podcasters and content creators. Join us tomorrow and until then, make it a great day everybody take care.