514. 3 Storytelling Tricks That Make Podcasts Addictive

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Ralph Estep Jr: - Good morning
podcasters.

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Today
is Monday, May 11, 2026
and this morning we're kicking

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off
another obsession worthy
podcast conversation.

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Everybody hosting
today with
Jonathan Howard, and Jonathan is

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bringing us a fun
one, an
episode from 99% invisible

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called the Roman Mars,
Mazda
virus, and the setup is

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wonderfully strange.
A podcast
listener can play

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almost anything in his car, but
when he
tries to play 99%

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invisible, his Mazda stereo
locks up.

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So today
we're going to talk
about why this episode works,

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how a tiny,
oddly specific
tech problem becomes a full

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blown audio
mystery, and what
podcasters can learn from the

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storytelling
choices, the
pacing, the humor, the curiosity

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and the
collaboration between
99% invisible and Reply All

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walks
about why this is a
observing, worthy Marc Ronick:

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morning chat is
powered by
ironick media helping podcasters

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launch polish and
grow great
shows And by content creators

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accountant helping
creators
build real business behind their

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content.
Ralph Estep Jr: Well, good


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morning everyone.
And you see that Mark is not

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joining us
today.
Mark is back in traveling from

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seeing his stepson's

graduation.

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So he had a late night, so he
asked me to jump in
and fill

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in for him this morning.
So that is what I'm
doing.

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In addition to that, joining me
on stage.

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Here are
Jonathan Howard, DR
Fay, Junaid, Sid meadows and BC

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babbles.
So
we have a great one today.

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Jonathan with this obsession

worthy podcast 99% invisible,

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called the Roman Mars Mazda

virus.

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And before we get started, just
want to remind
everybody, if

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you would like to have your show
featured on the
podcasting

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morning show, absolutely free,
all you've got
to do is go to

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podcasting morning
show.com/spotlight once
you go

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to that website again, that's
podcasting morning


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show.com/spotlight just follow
the directions there, because


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we'd love to feature your show
on our show and give it a wider

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audience so people can check it
out.

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So John, D.R.
Fay: we've gotten any


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submissions.
Ralph Estep Jr: We have, we've


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gotten a couple of them, so
we're still waiting for a few


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more to get it lined up, but
we've gotten a few.

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I would
encourage everybody to
go to the website and do that.

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Listen.

This is a great way to give

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yourself some exposure.
We're
not asking for anything

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in return.
Just tell us about your
show.

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Just 60 seconds.
It can be we got one video and

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we got one
audio, which is
even cool.

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So yeah, whatever you can do,
just
send it to us.

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Tell us about your show, why,
who your
audiences and what

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they would gain from your show.
But let's
jump right into it.

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Jonathan, I'm going to turn over
the reins
to you, my friend.

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Jonathan Howard: All right.

Well, you highlighted that.

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There's a lot to go over in this

episode.

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Let's start talking a little bit
about it.

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It was
definitely interesting
episode, and there was a lot of

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things
happening.
So it's a crossover episode of

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99% invisible.
And
Reply All 99% invisible is

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a podcast about unnoticed

Architecture and Design of

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Everyday Life.
It explores all
the hidden

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systems, decisions, objects,
sounds, symbols,


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infrastructure, which is what it
really explored in this one and

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design choices that quietly
shape human behavior without


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most of us realizing it.
And this particular episode, a

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man
discovers his Mazda cereal
crashes every time he plays one

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specific podcast, and that's
99% invisible, not Spotify, not

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podcasts in general, only Roman
Mars.

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So apparently, Mazda has a

problem with Roman Mars.

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But what begins as a tiny tech
issue
becomes a real, full

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investigative mystery about

systems and software bugs and

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the weird fragility of modern

technology, because this was a

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weird one.
And actually, before
I go

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further, I want to remind
everybody why we do obsession


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worthy podcasts, and that is
because we really like to dig


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into these podcasts and see what
we can learn from them so we can

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make our podcast better.
We may not be creating a podcast

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on
radio bugs, but we can use
the storytelling and all the

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things
that happen in this to
help make our podcast a little

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bit better.

All right, so this episode

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combines mystery, storytelling,
investigative journalism,

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comedy collaboration and live

experimentation.

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But what's really important is
it actually
makes the whole

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process of discovering what is
causing this
problem the

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entertainment, which is
something that is important


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for us to take away.
And a quick note before we jump

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into the
clips, this is also a
collaboration, and I want to


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remind people that
collaborations are a great


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opportunity for your podcast
whenever you can do them, but a

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good collaboration should be
equally beneficial for you and


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the person you're collaborating
with, your audiences should be


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adjacent, and a collab done
right will double your audience

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for this specific episode,
allowing you to grow your own


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individual audience with people
that are.

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Work from the other
podcast
audience that may have never

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heard.
So whenever that's
whenever,

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that's an opportunity, and it
makes sense for you, take
that

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opportunity.
All right.

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So clip one does something
really,
really well.

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Within seconds, we understand
the problem, the
stakes, the

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absurdity and the whole mystery
behind this
podcast, and this

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is in like 30 seconds, right up
at the top, so
you can hit

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that first one.
Clip: So Ben, not too long ago,

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got a new car.
It was a 2016 Mazda six.

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And the thing that he
was most
excited about in his new car was

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that he could pair
his phone
using Bluetooth so that he could

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listen to
podcasts.
Oh, before he was like an ox in

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guy, yes.
Anyway, for
some reason, the

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radio in his new car refuses to
play one
podcast and one

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podcast only, which is the
radiotopia podcast,
99%

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invisible, really, yes, and it's
driving him absolutely
insane.

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His car, Bluetooth has rejected
Roman Mars and his
stories.

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Yes.
Jonathan Howard: So there you


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go, his car, Bluetooth has
rejected Roman Mars stories.

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So
that line alone reframes
this entire episode.

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It's not a
boring tech issue
anymore.

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It's more a personal and
emotional
thing.

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The specificity is what creates
the stickiness.

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Here
it's one podcast, one car
and a really bizarre issue, but

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specificity is what makes
things memorable.

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Vagueness ends up
killing your
podcast.

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So yeah, Ralph Estep Jr: this
certainly
wasn't vague from

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the beginning.
Actually, as I was listening to

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this, I was out doing my
morning walk on the farm, and

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I'm
thinking I can understand
how frustrating this would be,


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because I've had tech issues
like that before, and it's one


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of those things where I paid for
this tech.

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I just want it to
work.
How come everything works,

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except for this?
And I got to be
honest with

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you, Jonathan, we haven't gotten
into a lot of it,
but this

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episode kind of annoyed me a
little bit, because I just


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wanted to find out, okay, what
is the fix here?

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How are we
going to solve this
problem?

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I kept on saying, Oh, come on,

guys, try this.

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Come on, guys, try that.
Which is brilliant on
their

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part, because now I am a active
participant in this
craziness

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that turns into this podcast.
I don't want to take
away all

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your shine, Jonathan, but that
was the thing.

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It
really sucked me in from
the beginning, because I was

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like,
Oh man, I got to hear
how this ends.

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There's no way I'm turning

this off.

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In fact, I walked like, an extra
mile because I
wanted to

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finish it while I was out
walking, Jonathan Howard: yeah,

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and I
made a note, actually, a
little bit later that I knew

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people
were going to be very
frustrated with the build,

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because some
people just want
to know how to fix it.

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But the build is really

important when it because it

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does actually get you invested.


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We've talked many times about
the importance of the curiosity

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gap or a loop, and that's what
this episode really does.

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It
keeps opening new loops.
Why was it only this podcast?

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Why is it
only Mazda?
Could audio actually break

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software in a car?
Of
course, there's Roman Mars

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cursed.
And is this happening to
other

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people, but each answer creates
a deeper mystery, and
that

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creates the bingeable
storytelling.

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That's exactly
what Ralph was
talking about.

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It gets you to keep going,
because
you want to find out

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you're invested now you want to
find
out the answer.

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Ralph Estep Jr: I think.
Dr,
wanted to make a comment.

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Go ahead.
Dr, D.R.

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Fay: yeah, I have a
question.
So we're talking about Roman

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Mars.
He is the host of
99% so for

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people who have never listened
to 99% Roman Mars is
the host

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of that show, and at some point
they start talking
about,

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well, maybe it's the way the
host talks.

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Maybe it's the
sound of his
voice.

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So I just wanted to make it
clear that he
was, he's the

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host of this show, Roman Mars,
okay, Jonathan Howard: yes.

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However,
the people that you
hear talking are actually not

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Roman Mars,
because, like I
said, it's a crossover episode,

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D.R.
Fay: right?

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Jonathan Howard: And in most of
the clips, you're actually

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hearing the hosts of the other

podcast, which is now randomly

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escaping my mind.
Ralph Estep Jr: Jonathan, while

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we're there, while we're
talking about crossover, in case

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somebody doesn't know what it
means by crossover, what exactly

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does that mean?
Jonathan Howard: It is when two

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podcasts are, you know, they
work on a collaborative episode.

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They might be hosting, you know,

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the other person's podcast, or

being a part of the other

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person's podcast, but it's

really a collaborative effort

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between the podcast.
Ralph Estep Jr: Oh no, I totally

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get it.
I mean, I see that on

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television.
I know.

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I like to
watch Chicago Fire,
Chicago Med, Chicago PD, and

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they have these
crossover
episodes.

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Actually, I think that's a
pretty good idea.


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Isn't it a way to build your
audience, potentially, if you


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can find some crossover
audiences, it's probably a very

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brilliant way to build some
audience.

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Go ahead.
Alex, Alex Ballish: Hey, good

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morning,
everybody.
Yeah, we used to do a lot of

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crossover episodes with

podcasts that we do either

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before the season started and

after the end, we'd get a couple

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of other podcasts together, and
we would do one show, drop it

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at.
One show on all of our


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platforms, or something similar
to that.

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And you, like you said,
it's a
great way to kind of get your

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ears to new or your voice
to
new listeners.

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And we love doing it.
Plus, you know, when
you're

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dealing with what we're dealing
with, we have a certain
take,

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and it's nice to hear other
people's takes on the same


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topic.
Ralph Estep Jr: Thank you, Alex,

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thank you for sharing that.
Go ahead, Jonathan.

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You want to
move on to the
next Jonathan Howard: topic.

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Sure, if
there's nothing else
we can talk about the second

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clip, which the
second clip is
really just providing proof that

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this is
actually happening.
And it does an excellent job

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highlighting
the issue and
providing the proof that's

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needed so that they
can
actually start running this

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test.
Clip: So he does start playing,

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but like, the display screen
stops working.

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It totally
freezes.
The buttons aren't working

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properly.
He has no
control.

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It's just for playing on its
own.

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The Hall of Honor is
this so
you can't interact with the

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screen at all.
It still says
whatever I

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played right before, 99%
invisible.

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And then after
about a minute,
class over which he saw was

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massive, the screen
just went
black, 18 feet wide, and now

220
00:10:59,363 --> 00:11:05,165
it's cut off and
restarted.
And I'm not playing 90%

221
00:11:05,165 --> 00:11:08,405
invisible anymore, because

every time I've done that, if

222
00:11:08,405 --> 00:11:10,925
it's still playing, it will

freeze again.

223
00:11:10,925 --> 00:11:14,990
How could you have a type
problem where the trigger
was

224
00:11:14,990 --> 00:11:17,417
like content?
I know it's weird, right?

225
00:11:17,417 --> 00:11:20,885
It's very weird.
Jonathan Howard: So his car


226
00:11:20,893 --> 00:11:22,965
Bluetooth has rejected Roman
Mars.

227
00:11:22,965 --> 00:11:28,184
That's not completely and
this
tech problem is now part of the

228
00:11:28,184 --> 00:11:30,128
content.
So that sentence
changes the

229
00:11:30,128 --> 00:11:32,944
scale of the mystery.
The host understands
something

230
00:11:32,944 --> 00:11:34,880
important.
The audience is no longer

231
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,706
invested
in the stereo itself.
They're actually interested in

232
00:11:37,706 --> 00:11:41,459
how this
actually exists, and
the problem that now becomes

233
00:11:41,459 --> 00:11:44,496
almost
philosophical.
How is this actually happening?

234
00:11:44,496 --> 00:11:48,820
So we now
have a clear and
proven dilemma, but the mystery

235
00:11:48,820 --> 00:11:50,980
is, how are we
going to solve
this mystery?

236
00:11:50,980 --> 00:11:54,520
And that is really what clip
three
starts to dive into.

237
00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,252
Now what follows are some insane
podcast
experiments where they

238
00:11:58,252 --> 00:12:01,875
see if they can isolate the
problem,
not one, not two, but

239
00:12:01,875 --> 00:12:04,256
several.
So I forgot to stop and see if


240
00:12:04,264 --> 00:12:06,600
anybody had any questions.
I'm just running through these.

241
00:12:07,140 --> 00:12:09,240
Ralph Estep Jr: Well, this is

where the frustration started to

242
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:09,876
build.
Jonathan.

243
00:12:09,876 --> 00:12:12,715
At this very
point, I'm
thinking, Okay, guys, because

244
00:12:12,715 --> 00:12:15,072
I'm a solver, like I'm a

problem solver.

245
00:12:15,072 --> 00:12:18,153
So immediately my mind go, Okay,
well, clearly
it has to do

246
00:12:18,153 --> 00:12:21,396
with something in the title of
his episode or
something he's

247
00:12:21,396 --> 00:12:23,735
doing.
So guys go do this and this, and

248
00:12:23,735 --> 00:12:26,780
I think
the next clip is going
to take us there, but that's

249
00:12:26,780 --> 00:12:29,210
where the
frustration started
Jonathan Howard: for me, yeah,


250
00:12:29,218 --> 00:12:32,270
and I'm sure for you as a
solver, the fact that they


251
00:12:32,278 --> 00:12:36,015
actually created all of these
podcasts to test things, not


252
00:12:36,023 --> 00:12:38,969
just change the title and submit
something.

253
00:12:38,969 --> 00:12:42,244
They actually created
all of
these different podcasts for

254
00:12:42,244 --> 00:12:44,188
this.
I'm sure it infuriated
you.

255
00:12:44,188 --> 00:12:46,344
Well, now actually, Ralph Estep
Jr: it didn't
infuriate me,

256
00:12:46,344 --> 00:12:48,874
because I used to work for a
software company, and
one of

257
00:12:48,874 --> 00:12:51,940
the things we had to do, I
worked in what we called tech


258
00:12:51,948 --> 00:12:53,910
support.
I had to help the programmers

259
00:12:53,910 --> 00:12:56,004
fix this stuff by
recreating
it.

260
00:12:56,004 --> 00:12:59,374
And I would spend days Jonathan
creating these
scenarios of,

261
00:12:59,374 --> 00:13:02,130
let's put all these things in
the same order.


262
00:13:02,138 --> 00:13:05,184
And, yeah, it got frustrating,
but it was so cool, like, when


263
00:13:05,192 --> 00:13:06,873
you figured it out, oh, here's
what.

264
00:13:06,873 --> 00:13:10,200
It was, some little stupid

button or some little checkbox.

265
00:13:10,260 --> 00:13:13,380
So yeah, it did build

frustration, but my mind started

266
00:13:13,380 --> 00:13:15,300
to play, like, Okay, well,

here's what they're gonna do.

267
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,460
They're gonna recreate this.

They're gonna do this, this and

268
00:13:17,460 --> 00:13:18,860
this.
I was frustrated by how
they

269
00:13:18,860 --> 00:13:22,237
did it, but it took me right
there, right and they
begin to

270
00:13:22,237 --> 00:13:25,180
build all these fake podcasts,
which turns the
investigation

271
00:13:25,180 --> 00:13:28,143
into entertainment, because they
were
really, actually

272
00:13:28,143 --> 00:13:32,792
interesting podcasts, D.R.
Fay: and with theme music
and

273
00:13:32,792 --> 00:13:37,988
intros and everything, like a
real cover art, like a real


274
00:13:37,996 --> 00:13:42,485
podcast, just For all of these
experiments, Ralph Estep Jr:

275
00:13:42,485 --> 00:13:44,148
they definitely
took it to the
extreme, didn't they?

276
00:13:44,148 --> 00:13:46,553
Dr, Jimmy, go ahead and
play
the third clip.

277
00:13:46,553 --> 00:13:47,471
Jonathan, Jonathan Howard: go
ahead.

278
00:13:47,471 --> 00:13:48,500
You
can hit that third clip.
Yeah.

279
00:13:48,740 --> 00:13:50,900
Clip: So the first podcast we

made is called carrot space

280
00:13:50,900 --> 00:13:53,105
carrot.
You know the carrot,
which is

281
00:13:53,105 --> 00:13:55,673
a little pointy, the pointy
upwards arrow, yeah.


282
00:13:55,681 --> 00:13:57,758
Okay.
It's called carrot space carrot.

283
00:13:57,758 --> 00:14:00,925
I'm just gonna play it
for
you.

284
00:14:00,925 --> 00:14:04,173
Okay.
God, we are in Alex Coleman

285
00:14:04,173 --> 00:14:06,146
territory.
That's
synth Hello.

286
00:14:06,146 --> 00:14:09,818
Welcome to the carrot space.
Carrot.

287
00:14:09,818 --> 00:14:16,064
I recorded
this in my attic.
Queen Anne's lace.

288
00:14:16,064 --> 00:14:18,056
Annihilates negative.

Queen Anne's lace.

289
00:14:18,056 --> 00:14:21,270
I think I've had enough of this
podcast.


290
00:14:21,278 --> 00:14:25,818
Okay, so we made this podcast.
We uploaded it to podcast apps


291
00:14:25,826 --> 00:14:30,448
and to an RSS feed.
We gave it to Ben, and I asked

292
00:14:30,448 --> 00:14:34,888
him to try
it in his car.
Go ahead and listen, and we'll

293
00:14:34,888 --> 00:14:35,000
see if it
breaks your car
stereo.

294
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,520
Jonathan Howard: Hello and

welcome to the carrot space.

295
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,680
Carrot podcast, the audience

really does get rewarded with

296
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,804
the novelty as the mystery

deepens.

297
00:14:43,804 --> 00:14:47,275
This keeps a really highly
technical episode from


298
00:14:47,283 --> 00:14:51,670
becoming dry, because you get
the host kind of acting like


299
00:14:51,678 --> 00:14:55,360
these curious idiots in the best
possible way, and the energy


300
00:14:55,368 --> 00:14:59,140
that they're putting into this
becomes contagious, because


301
00:14:59,148 --> 00:15:01,740
every.
Theory gets tested live.

302
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,240
And that matters because the

show doesn't just say, hey, we

303
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,940
had this thing.
It used to be an
issue, but

304
00:15:08,940 --> 00:15:12,504
now, hey, we figured it out.
It actually proves,
through

305
00:15:12,504 --> 00:15:16,248
the action of creating these
podcasts, that it's doing
the

306
00:15:16,248 --> 00:15:18,243
work.
It's stepping through it.

307
00:15:18,243 --> 00:15:23,060
And that matters because

you're hearing the experiments,

308
00:15:23,660 --> 00:15:26,660
the failed attempts, the

recreated conditions, all the

309
00:15:26,660 --> 00:15:30,160
live reactions.
And this is
receipt based

310
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,380
storytelling, and that's what
creates trust in
your podcast.

311
00:15:33,859 --> 00:15:35,659
Ralph Estep Jr: But that was the

very thing that frustrated me,

312
00:15:35,659 --> 00:15:38,419
Jonathan, because I said, just

create another one with the same

313
00:15:38,419 --> 00:15:41,145
name.
What is the big deal here.


314
00:15:41,153 --> 00:15:44,029
Put the same name, 99% invisible
space something.

315
00:15:44,029 --> 00:15:47,233
And let's just
do that.
So I got to be honest, as I'm

316
00:15:47,233 --> 00:15:49,809
out walking, I'm going,
dudes,
let's just make this simple.

317
00:15:49,809 --> 00:15:53,121
Let's cut to the chase,
like
before they even let that out of

318
00:15:53,121 --> 00:15:54,489
the bag, is this could be
an
issue.

319
00:15:54,489 --> 00:15:56,019
I'm thinking, why don't you just
do that?

320
00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:59,740
Jonathan Howard: Because they're

creatives, and would you be a

321
00:15:59,740 --> 00:16:01,602
good and it would be a good

podcast episode.

322
00:16:01,602 --> 00:16:02,530
Go ahead.
And D.R.

323
00:16:02,530 --> 00:16:06,103
Fay: they even mentioned
that
when they finally did do that,

324
00:16:06,103 --> 00:16:10,739
the other person who's
he's
talking to said, Well, you

325
00:16:10,919 --> 00:16:13,980
should have done this from the

very beginning, Jonathan Howard:

326
00:16:13,980 --> 00:16:18,150
oops, Ralph Estep Jr: but it did
build
the tension.

327
00:16:18,150 --> 00:16:21,220
Jonathan, and if that was the
goal, then I give
them an A

328
00:16:21,220 --> 00:16:23,886
plus for effort in building
tension, because it
made me

329
00:16:23,886 --> 00:16:28,020
stressed out.
Jonathan Howard: Yeah, and, you

330
00:16:28,020 --> 00:16:31,400
know, as we get to this point
now, as we're going into clip


331
00:16:31,408 --> 00:16:34,190
four, it seems like all the
logical explanations have


332
00:16:34,198 --> 00:16:37,700
failed, which is, again, that
escalation that keeps the


333
00:16:37,708 --> 00:16:40,815
listener locked in, because
we've invested in this point.


334
00:16:40,823 --> 00:16:44,680
And I know, you know, we've
listened to 32nd clips here, but

335
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:49,355

this is about 20 minutes into
the episode, so this escalation

336
00:16:49,355 --> 00:16:53,840
keeps us locked in, and now
we've invested all this time, we

337
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,820

need to know what's happening.
So let's hit on clip four.

338
00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,960
Clip: So Roman's whole theory

that he found so obvious does

339
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,915
not seem to be founded.
It
doesn't seem to be founded.

340
00:17:04,915 --> 00:17:07,380
And so at this point, I just
start
thinking that it has to

341
00:17:07,380 --> 00:17:11,124
be something within the file
itself
that they are uploading

342
00:17:11,124 --> 00:17:13,877
that's busted, that it doesn't
actually
have anything to do

343
00:17:13,877 --> 00:17:15,780
with the percent sign.
Interesting.

344
00:17:15,780 --> 00:17:19,770
But
then Ben tells us
something that, again, befuddles

345
00:17:19,770 --> 00:17:25,613
us, okay,
which is Ben found a
copy of a 99% visible episode on

346
00:17:25,613 --> 00:17:29,145
YouTube
and tried playing that
over his car stereo.

347
00:17:29,145 --> 00:17:32,515
So he was like, I'm
gonna see
if pirated 99 pi works, yeah,

348
00:17:32,515 --> 00:17:35,797
and it breaks the
car.
It breaks the car.

349
00:17:35,797 --> 00:17:38,175
I mean, it breaks the same
thing, yeah?


350
00:17:38,183 --> 00:17:41,085
Which is weird, because it just
means it's not actually anything

351
00:17:41,085 --> 00:17:43,513

about the file itself, because
when someone's uploading a


352
00:17:43,521 --> 00:17:46,170
podcast to YouTube, that's like
a totally new file.

353
00:17:46,170 --> 00:17:48,270
Yes, Jonathan Howard: now we're
frustrated.

354
00:17:48,270 --> 00:17:51,690
Now we're really frustrated,
because every time
they think

355
00:17:51,690 --> 00:17:55,470
they solved it, something else
breaks, which
creates the

356
00:17:55,470 --> 00:17:58,590
momentum in the story.
But the audience is
thinking,

357
00:17:58,590 --> 00:18:00,756
Okay, what is really going on
here.

358
00:18:00,756 --> 00:18:04,238
And maybe since I
normally do
five clips, we can actually see

359
00:18:04,238 --> 00:18:06,570
what's going on in
this next
clip.

360
00:18:06,570 --> 00:18:08,490
Ralph Estep Jr: Jonathan, before

we go there, I just want to

361
00:18:08,955 --> 00:18:12,610
point something out, a brilliant

use of music here, because

362
00:18:12,610 --> 00:18:15,333
when they started this clip,
that
music got me more

363
00:18:15,333 --> 00:18:17,688
stressed out than I was before I
started
hearing it.

364
00:18:17,688 --> 00:18:20,166
Because then I'm putting it new
name, and I'm
hearing this

365
00:18:20,166 --> 00:18:21,909
thing like, oh, it's sucking me
in, right?

366
00:18:21,909 --> 00:18:24,130
So I
think we can all take
away from that.

367
00:18:24,130 --> 00:18:28,013
If you've got a moment
like
that in your content, that was a

368
00:18:28,013 --> 00:18:31,440
brilliant use of sound,
what
we call soundscape, to make that

369
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,249
happen.
Jonathan Howard: Yeah,


370
00:18:33,257 --> 00:18:35,744
absolutely.
And the music can build the

371
00:18:35,744 --> 00:18:39,720
tension as well as we

approach, hopefully, what might

372
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,320
be a breakthrough moment,

because we're 35 minutes in now,

373
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,355
we got to figure this out.
So we
finally uncover the

374
00:18:46,355 --> 00:18:49,032
tiny, invisible system behind
this
whole story.

375
00:18:49,032 --> 00:18:53,964
In this clip, let's find out.
Clip: Kurt says, I have a


376
00:18:53,972 --> 00:18:57,449
theory.
And the theory is that in the

377
00:18:57,449 --> 00:18:59,358
programming language C,
uh
huh.

378
00:18:59,358 --> 00:19:03,387
Oh, I know what it is.
I know what happened.

379
00:19:03,387 --> 00:19:05,199
Literally,
99% means
something.

380
00:19:05,199 --> 00:19:08,859
It means turn off your stereo in
the
programming language C,

381
00:19:08,859 --> 00:19:11,925
you're close, but not exactly in
the
programming language C,

382
00:19:12,225 --> 00:19:15,234
basically, in some scenarios,

the percent sign means Hey, the

383
00:19:15,234 --> 00:19:17,070
character immediately following
me, the character immediately

384
00:19:17,070 --> 00:19:21,930
following the percent sign.

Think about that like code

385
00:19:21,930 --> 00:19:26,910
rather than like text, and start

parsing that as though it's

386
00:19:26,910 --> 00:19:30,180
asking you to run commands.
Jonathan Howard: So we don't


387
00:19:30,188 --> 00:19:34,487
quite get to that resolution
yet, but we think we're a lot


388
00:19:34,495 --> 00:19:36,438
closer.
So the programming language T

389
00:19:36,438 --> 00:19:39,622
must be to blame, and
that's a
complicated answer.

390
00:19:39,622 --> 00:19:42,855
So the host kind of frames it

emotionally instead of

391
00:19:42,855 --> 00:19:44,964
technically.
The audience
doesn't need to

392
00:19:44,964 --> 00:19:47,565
understand programming language
C or C Plus
Plus or whatever.

393
00:19:47,565 --> 00:19:50,649
They just need to understand
that there's this
weird symbol

394
00:19:50,649 --> 00:19:54,075
that broke everything.
So that's where we
are.

395
00:19:54,075 --> 00:19:59,385
But is C actually to blame?
So the episode reveals the


396
00:19:59,393 --> 00:20:02,047
answer.
Is still wrong, and this is

397
00:20:02,047 --> 00:20:05,820
where it truly becomes a

master class escalation,

398
00:20:06,180 --> 00:20:09,030
something that would frustrate

some listeners.

399
00:20:09,030 --> 00:20:12,410
I get it.
I want to hit that sixth clip.

400
00:20:12,410 --> 00:20:15,295
There's
a lot of clips in this
one, and I got some stuff to

401
00:20:15,295 --> 00:20:18,240
talk about,
but if anybody has
anything before we jump into it.

402
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,380
Clip: So our operating theory

was that percent I was breaking

403
00:20:22,380 --> 00:20:25,665
the radio because the percent

sign followed by the letter I

404
00:20:25,965 --> 00:20:28,725
meant something in the

programming language C, but what

405
00:20:28,725 --> 00:20:32,025
Brandon told us was no, that

program wasn't even written in

406
00:20:32,025 --> 00:20:34,041
C.
It was written in a totally


407
00:20:34,049 --> 00:20:35,250
different programming language,
okay?

408
00:20:35,250 --> 00:20:39,045
And what Brandon thinks
the
problem is, is that the code

409
00:20:39,045 --> 00:20:42,225
should tell the radio to ignore
things that it doesn't

410
00:20:42,225 --> 00:20:43,960
understand or that don't mean

anything.

411
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,883
But in this case, for whatever
reason, it's not so the
radio

412
00:20:47,883 --> 00:20:50,820
sees percent I and just keeps
desperately trying to
figure

413
00:20:50,820 --> 00:20:53,400
out what it means.
So it's like it's having a panic

414
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,985

attack, kind of.
It's like, I percent, percent,

415
00:20:55,985 --> 00:21:00,330
I, percent, I,
percent, I.
Jonathan Howard: Brilliant way


416
00:21:00,338 --> 00:21:03,240
of describing it, because that's
exactly what I felt like.

417
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,640
Like.

I was like, Okay, this is, if

418
00:21:05,700 --> 00:21:08,331
this is going to do this, why is

this happening?

419
00:21:08,331 --> 00:21:08,857
Why?
Why?

420
00:21:08,857 --> 00:21:12,950
Why?
So, you know that built energy


421
00:21:12,958 --> 00:21:19,217
that push really, really drove
this clip and us towards the end

422
00:21:19,217 --> 00:21:23,670

of the episode where we do
actually get a resolution, but


423
00:21:23,678 --> 00:21:28,750
before we do that, how I did
have a question, really about


424
00:21:28,758 --> 00:21:33,698
how you can create your own
tension in your own podcast,


425
00:21:33,706 --> 00:21:37,990
like, how could you as a
creator, create some tension in

426
00:21:37,990 --> 00:21:42,032
your podcast that's not going
to make people go crazy, but is

427
00:21:42,032 --> 00:21:45,100
going to keep them interested
in what you're offering.

428
00:21:45,699 --> 00:21:48,051
D.R.
Fay: I got to admit,
Jonathan,

429
00:21:48,051 --> 00:21:54,543
that sometimes it's very hard
for me to figure out
how this

430
00:21:54,543 --> 00:22:00,108
relates to the podcasts that I
work on as a producer.


431
00:22:00,116 --> 00:22:05,285
For instance, the podcast with
my client who is the seven


432
00:22:05,293 --> 00:22:10,685
figure business coach, or the
client who is the holistically


433
00:22:10,693 --> 00:22:16,391
healthy coach.
So I'm trying to figure out how

434
00:22:16,391 --> 00:22:19,773
tension can be in
those
podcasts.

435
00:22:19,773 --> 00:22:23,644
They interview other people, so
I don't know,
I'm coming to

436
00:22:23,644 --> 00:22:26,479
you for help.
Jonathan Howard: Yeah, well, and

437
00:22:26,479 --> 00:22:29,999

I love this question, because
it's something that you know,


438
00:22:30,007 --> 00:22:33,085
when you're interviewing people,
if you plan out an interview, if

439
00:22:33,085 --> 00:22:36,129

they plan out an interview,
it's not going to be yours.

440
00:22:36,129 --> 00:22:39,250
That
really touches on a
problem that their audience is

441
00:22:39,250 --> 00:22:42,945
having, and
this person is
going to help them solve that

442
00:22:42,945 --> 00:22:45,597
problem.
You can
start with really,

443
00:22:45,597 --> 00:22:49,359
like, pushing on that problem a
little bit,
creating that

444
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,059
tension, where you're talking
about the problem
that they're

445
00:22:52,059 --> 00:22:55,467
facing and why it's so
frustrating, and how come
it's

446
00:22:55,467 --> 00:22:58,595
stopping them from making
progress, or anything along


447
00:22:58,603 --> 00:23:02,363
those lines.
And then you can start to build

448
00:23:02,363 --> 00:23:07,058
in some quick
first steps, a
quick solution that's going to

449
00:23:07,058 --> 00:23:08,543
help them move
to the next
level.

450
00:23:08,543 --> 00:23:11,930
And when you build it, and you
actually don't
fully answer

451
00:23:11,930 --> 00:23:14,870
the question, you don't fully
solve the problem
until the

452
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:17,534
end of the podcast, that's
creating tension, that's


453
00:23:17,542 --> 00:23:21,745
actually getting them into that
curiosity loop, where they feel

454
00:23:21,745 --> 00:23:26,221
like the podcast is about them
and it matters, and they want to

455
00:23:26,221 --> 00:23:28,039

find the answer out, so they
stick around.

456
00:23:28,460 --> 00:23:30,140
Ralph Estep Jr: And there's some

intentionality in that.

457
00:23:30,140 --> 00:23:32,240
Jonathan, I think, is what

you're really saying, and that

458
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,000
is when you're thinking about

putting your episode together,

459
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:38,365
even if you've already done the
interview, you can still go

460
00:23:38,365 --> 00:23:40,878
back and build these tension
points
in, because you can go

461
00:23:40,878 --> 00:23:43,075
back and think through it.
It doesn't
have to be just

462
00:23:43,075 --> 00:23:44,740
this long.
I'm just going to hit play and

463
00:23:44,740 --> 00:23:46,710
let
it go.
This is where you can build in

464
00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:49,564
and cut some things up
to
really build that tension into

465
00:23:49,564 --> 00:23:51,188
that episode.
Dr, so that
might help you.

466
00:23:51,188 --> 00:23:53,568
Dr, if you think intentionally,
what are some
cliffhangers

467
00:23:53,568 --> 00:23:56,500
that I can grab this little
piece from over here
and move

468
00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:59,412
it over here and becomes a thing
the audience
doesn't even

469
00:23:59,412 --> 00:24:02,854
realize that you did that, but
they get the
benefit of the

470
00:24:02,854 --> 00:24:05,141
takeaway from that, D.R.
Fay: right?

471
00:24:05,141 --> 00:24:09,027
Maybe it could
be a hybrid of
an interview show and narrative.

472
00:24:09,027 --> 00:24:12,679
Do you know what
I mean?
Maybe kind of marry them a

473
00:24:12,679 --> 00:24:15,503
little bit, Jonathan Howard: and
whenever
you have storytelling

474
00:24:15,503 --> 00:24:19,568
that's built in tension, so
whenever
if, even if the guest

475
00:24:19,568 --> 00:24:21,850
has a really strong story to
tell.

476
00:24:21,850 --> 00:24:24,872
You
can use that to build
attention and get people

477
00:24:24,872 --> 00:24:27,470
interested as
well.
So having them tell a story,

478
00:24:27,470 --> 00:24:30,680
connecting with it,
making
sure it lands, the point that

479
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,560
you want to get across.
But
the one thing I would say

480
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,784
with that, and I say this about
a lot
of the podcasts we

481
00:24:36,784 --> 00:24:41,648
actually look at, you have to
start with a
purpose, with a

482
00:24:41,648 --> 00:24:44,473
statement of what people are
going to get out
of that

483
00:24:44,473 --> 00:24:46,720
podcast, so that you're then
building towards that.

484
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,960
Ralph Estep Jr: I just wanted to

interrupt for one second and

485
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,360
just give everybody a preview of

tomorrow's show.

486
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:55,115
Tomorrow on the show, we're
going to have Cindy
Harrison,

487
00:24:55,115 --> 00:24:58,104
who is a publicist, so make sure
you join us tomorrow
at 8am

488
00:24:58,104 --> 00:24:59,839
she's going to talk to you
about.

489
00:24:59,839 --> 00:25:03,230
How publicity can
work for
your podcast that'll be tomorrow

490
00:25:03,230 --> 00:25:05,480
at 8am again.
Her name
is Cindy Harrison, so

491
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,032
make sure you join us tomorrow
if you're
interested in

492
00:25:08,032 --> 00:25:11,311
publicity or even Hey about this
one identity you
know,

493
00:25:11,311 --> 00:25:13,609
identity protection, as you're
starting to build an
audience,

494
00:25:13,609 --> 00:25:15,256
she's gonna have a great episode
about that.

495
00:25:15,256 --> 00:25:17,965
So
that's what we're going to
talk about on tomorrow's show.

496
00:25:19,825 --> 00:25:21,625
Jonathan Howard: All right, very

cool.

497
00:25:21,625 --> 00:25:24,010
Thank you.
Ralph and Dr, does anybody else

498
00:25:24,010 --> 00:25:26,911
have, you
know, a question
about how they could build

499
00:25:26,911 --> 00:25:30,709
tension in their own
podcast
before we move on to the next

500
00:25:30,709 --> 00:25:34,237
clip?
All right, so we're
getting to

501
00:25:34,237 --> 00:25:38,410
the payoff here.
It's small, weird and incredibly

502
00:25:38,410 --> 00:25:42,520

satisfying, but what's really
important is it feels human.


503
00:25:42,528 --> 00:25:46,006
After listening to all this,
we're finally reaching that


504
00:25:46,014 --> 00:25:50,350
point where it feels human and
it's not this nagging thing in


505
00:25:50,358 --> 00:25:54,670
the back of our heads anymore.
So you can hit that next one.

506
00:25:55,075 --> 00:25:58,555
Clip: So our operating theory

was that percent I was breaking

507
00:25:58,555 --> 00:26:01,855
the radio because the percent

sign followed by the letter, I

508
00:26:02,155 --> 00:26:04,303
meant something in the

programming language C.

509
00:26:04,303 --> 00:26:07,665
But what Brandon told us was no,
that
program wasn't even

510
00:26:07,665 --> 00:26:10,249
written in C.
It was written in a totally


511
00:26:10,257 --> 00:26:11,401
different programming language.
Okay?

512
00:26:11,401 --> 00:26:14,761
And what Brandon thinks
the
problem is that the code should

513
00:26:14,761 --> 00:26:17,515
tell the radio to ignore

things that it doesn't

514
00:26:17,515 --> 00:26:19,340
understand or that don't mean

anything.

515
00:26:19,340 --> 00:26:23,310
But in this case, for whatever
reason, it's not so the
radio

516
00:26:23,310 --> 00:26:26,260
sees percent I and just keeps
desperately trying to
figure

517
00:26:26,260 --> 00:26:28,870
out what it means.
So it's like it's having a panic

518
00:26:28,870 --> 00:26:31,395

attack, kind of.
It's like, I percent, percent,

519
00:26:31,395 --> 00:26:35,660
I, percent, I,
percent I.
Jonathan Howard: Let's hit


520
00:26:35,668 --> 00:26:36,955
number seven.
Ralph Estep Jr: Sorry about


521
00:26:36,963 --> 00:26:38,255
that.
I think we got out of sequence

522
00:26:38,255 --> 00:26:40,385
together.
We'll go
right to number

523
00:26:40,385 --> 00:26:41,096
seven.
Thank you.

524
00:26:41,096 --> 00:26:41,117
Jonathan Clip: Andrew kuwitz
from PRX had
a very sweet

525
00:26:41,117 --> 00:26:42,979
idea.
Maybe we got to publish a

526
00:26:42,979 --> 00:26:48,145
version of 99%
invisible with
some slightly different titles

527
00:26:48,145 --> 00:26:51,505
or something.

I'd be willing to create the

528
00:26:51,505 --> 00:26:53,890
Mazda version of the feed.
That
would be great.

529
00:26:53,890 --> 00:26:56,911
That'd be super cool.
There's just like a 99%


530
00:26:56,919 --> 00:26:59,665
invisible for Ben and other
Mazda owners feed.

531
00:26:59,665 --> 00:27:02,759
Well, I can
say that people in
Nissan's have also reported

532
00:27:02,759 --> 00:27:04,809
having this
problem, but yes,
for Mazda owners and Nissan

533
00:27:04,809 --> 00:27:07,770
owners who are
having problems
with the specific infotainment

534
00:27:07,770 --> 00:27:11,970
system,
that's a very niche
podcast.

535
00:27:11,970 --> 00:27:14,730
So I called Ben up one more
time.


536
00:27:14,738 --> 00:27:20,100
Just let me know if when you got
it set up and ready to roll.


537
00:27:20,108 --> 00:27:22,984
Well, dude, this is 99%
invisible.

538
00:27:22,984 --> 00:27:27,782
I'm Roman Mars.
Tim
Harford is a master at

539
00:27:27,782 --> 00:27:31,395
picking up the perfect little
story, and
everything's

540
00:27:31,395 --> 00:27:33,817
working.
Fine, economic principle, yep.

541
00:27:33,817 --> 00:27:37,307
So this
totally works.
It's plain, normally, not

542
00:27:37,307 --> 00:27:38,935
freezing at all.

It's perfect.

543
00:27:39,379 --> 00:27:41,523
D.R.
Fay: So one thing I think,


544
00:27:41,531 --> 00:27:45,519
that we fail to acknowledge is
that they found out throughout


545
00:27:45,527 --> 00:27:49,877
all of these experiments, they
found out that Ben, who was like

546
00:27:49,877 --> 00:27:53,307

the center of this whole
thing, he was the reason why

547
00:27:53,307 --> 00:27:55,779
they were
set to do all these
experiments.

548
00:27:56,199 --> 00:28:00,719
They found out that Ben was not
the only one that the host of

549
00:28:00,719 --> 00:28:06,479
99% invisible has heard from

he's heard from other people who

550
00:28:06,479 --> 00:28:11,539
own Mazdas and who have the this

Bluetooth stereo in their

551
00:28:11,539 --> 00:28:15,023
Mazda.
He's heard the same complaint,


552
00:28:15,031 --> 00:28:18,751
and also some Nissan drivers as
well.

553
00:28:18,751 --> 00:28:23,059
And so I think that should

have been mentioned that, you

554
00:28:23,059 --> 00:28:27,423
know that now there's this maybe

small contingency of people

555
00:28:27,423 --> 00:28:30,799
that are kind of doing this, but
what
he wound up doing was

556
00:28:30,799 --> 00:28:35,979
almost creating, like a private
podcast
for them, in a way,

557
00:28:35,979 --> 00:28:39,404
and it was very satisfying at
the end.

558
00:28:39,404 --> 00:28:41,806
I
gotta say, yeah, Jonathan
Howard: yeah.

559
00:28:41,806 --> 00:28:44,866
And, you
know, as it's going
through, it did create, they

560
00:28:44,866 --> 00:28:48,268
created a Mazda
safe version
of 99% invisible, and the

561
00:28:48,268 --> 00:28:52,574
specificity of that
makes it
memorable, but also it's so

562
00:28:52,574 --> 00:28:56,834
niche that the audience
feels
rewarded, and they feel like

563
00:28:56,834 --> 00:29:00,840
they actually were a part
of
the process and they did the

564
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,610
things that were required to get

them there.

565
00:29:03,610 --> 00:29:07,288
Now I will say this podcast was
really difficult for
me to

566
00:29:07,288 --> 00:29:10,625
break down, because there were
so many different things


567
00:29:10,633 --> 00:29:15,065
happening, and I wanted to get a
clip of all the podcasts.

568
00:29:15,065 --> 00:29:18,730
And,
you know, there was a lot
happening, so I would recommend

569
00:29:18,730 --> 00:29:22,220
going and listening to this
episode to hear all the


570
00:29:22,228 --> 00:29:25,700
different things that they went
through, because it was engaging

571
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:28,154

and it was interesting to
listen to.

572
00:29:28,154 --> 00:29:30,500
It was just very hard to
break
down.

573
00:29:30,740 --> 00:29:31,895
D.R.
Fay: I have a short
question

574
00:29:31,895 --> 00:29:33,100
to make.
I have a confession.

575
00:29:33,100 --> 00:29:38,114
At one point, they
gave us the
payoff that they now know what

576
00:29:38,114 --> 00:29:43,102
it's about, and the
host of
the show created like a private

577
00:29:43,102 --> 00:29:45,514
podcast for all the
Mazda
owners.

578
00:29:45,514 --> 00:29:49,760
But then they said, We will,
after this break,
we'll return

579
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,195
and let you listen to those
podcasts.

580
00:29:52,195 --> 00:29:55,588
That's when I
turned it off,
because I had already heard

581
00:29:55,588 --> 00:29:58,996
little bits and
pieces of
those things building up to it,

582
00:29:58,996 --> 00:30:00,623
and I turned it off.

I.

583
00:30:00,623 --> 00:30:04,305
Is just in it for the resolve of
what the problem was.

584
00:30:04,305 --> 00:30:07,680
And so
I didn't go past that
Ralph Estep Jr: same thing.

585
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:08,940
Dr,
I did the exact same
thing.

586
00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:11,870
Dr, when I heard that, I was
like,
Okay, I'm escaping now,

587
00:30:11,870 --> 00:30:15,000
because I need to go hear how I
don't need to hear how the


588
00:30:15,008 --> 00:30:17,520
sausage was made for me.
I've got the resolution now.

589
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,348
That
said, I think if I was
really into the show, and I was

590
00:30:21,348 --> 00:30:24,291
really
into it the way they
structured that I think was

591
00:30:24,291 --> 00:30:27,276
probably
better, because if
they had put that in the actual

592
00:30:27,276 --> 00:30:30,339
episode, like
more of it, I
think I would have been

593
00:30:30,339 --> 00:30:32,823
frustrated even more, and I

would have bad, D.R.

594
00:30:32,823 --> 00:30:34,830
Fay: yeah, and they gave us
a
little taste.

595
00:30:34,830 --> 00:30:38,780
I mean, if they hadn't given us
a little taste,
maybe I would

596
00:30:38,780 --> 00:30:42,400
have wanted to hear exactly what
it was going
on, but they gave

597
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,780
us a little taste during the
whole thing of
each one, and

598
00:30:46,780 --> 00:30:50,030
that was enough for me.
It really was, Ralph Estep Jr:

599
00:30:50,030 --> 00:30:51,867
yeah, it's like,
they give you
a little a little nub, and

600
00:30:51,867 --> 00:30:54,100
you're like, I'll take
the nub
and I'll run with it.

601
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:56,860
But the thing is, I would have

said, though Jonathan it tell me

602
00:30:56,860 --> 00:30:59,680
if you agree with me or not.
I
might have said during the

603
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:04,140
episode, hey, if you want to

hear all of these, stay tuned to

604
00:31:04,140 --> 00:31:05,744
the end.
I think they missed an


605
00:31:05,752 --> 00:31:08,160
opportunity there, because I
think that might have been a


606
00:31:08,168 --> 00:31:10,740
brilliant move if they had said,
like, hey, don't forget, at the

607
00:31:10,740 --> 00:31:13,017
end of the episode, we're going
to play all of these that we


608
00:31:13,025 --> 00:31:14,444
created for you.
I don't know, Jonathan, you

609
00:31:14,444 --> 00:31:16,920
might disagree
with me, but I
think there was an opportunity.

610
00:31:17,340 --> 00:31:18,488
Jonathan Howard: There was an

opportunity there.

611
00:31:18,488 --> 00:31:20,384
And I know it said it in the
show notes.

612
00:31:20,384 --> 00:31:23,312
So
right at the top of the
show notes, it mentioned that

613
00:31:23,312 --> 00:31:26,744
these
were available, and if
you wanted all of them, they

614
00:31:26,744 --> 00:31:30,290
were on
the reply all feed.
So they only included a couple

615
00:31:30,290 --> 00:31:32,450
of them on the
end of this
podcast.

616
00:31:32,450 --> 00:31:35,748
But if you wanted all seven of
them, those
experimental ones

617
00:31:35,748 --> 00:31:38,957
were all on the reply all feed.
And that was
in the show

618
00:31:38,957 --> 00:31:42,572
notes, I believe.
But you did Ralph Estep Jr: we

619
00:31:42,572 --> 00:31:46,592
could have,
right?
We could take a half an hour and

620
00:31:46,592 --> 00:31:49,142
talk about show notes,
but,
like, I wouldn't even thought to

621
00:31:49,142 --> 00:31:50,510
look there.
But if
they had just said,

622
00:31:50,510 --> 00:31:52,960
Hey, at the end of the episode,
we're going
to play some of

623
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,765
these because I was a little bit
interested.

624
00:31:54,765 --> 00:31:57,656
But
like, dr, at this point,
okay, I figured out the

625
00:31:57,656 --> 00:31:59,528
resolution.
They
didn't really solve the

626
00:31:59,528 --> 00:32:01,320
problem.
Because here's the funny thing,

627
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,165
Jonathan, you don't have a clip
about it, but at one point I


628
00:32:04,173 --> 00:32:07,042
kind of felt like it was back to
the whole tech support.

629
00:32:07,042 --> 00:32:08,487
Have you
rebooted your
machine?

630
00:32:08,487 --> 00:32:12,601
And they basically said to Ben,
is there
a firmware upgrade

631
00:32:12,601 --> 00:32:14,825
that you could get?
And he's like, Well,
I don't

632
00:32:14,825 --> 00:32:17,579
want to spend the money on that.
And I was like, Okay,
well,

633
00:32:17,579 --> 00:32:21,030
you know, as Mars or Roman Mars,
I would have said, like,
dude,

634
00:32:21,030 --> 00:32:23,605
go do your part.
And that's, I sound mean, but

635
00:32:23,605 --> 00:32:25,945
it's
like, it's like, the
first thing they tell you when

636
00:32:25,945 --> 00:32:27,754
you call tech
support, have
you rebooted your machine?

637
00:32:27,754 --> 00:32:30,356
And I just felt like,
oh, man,
this could have all been

638
00:32:30,356 --> 00:32:32,498
resolved.
So now we're
creating this big

639
00:32:32,498 --> 00:32:35,426
situation that probably
something in the
firmware to

640
00:32:35,426 --> 00:32:38,724
the radio Mazda and Nissan have
already fixed, but
now we're

641
00:32:38,724 --> 00:32:41,366
going to go fix something that
doesn't really
need to be

642
00:32:41,366 --> 00:32:43,922
fixed, but it's frustrating to
somebody, which
it made for a

643
00:32:43,922 --> 00:32:46,110
good episode, don't get me
wrong, but it's
still it's

644
00:32:46,110 --> 00:32:48,730
back to that thing of, can you
restart your machine
and then

645
00:32:48,730 --> 00:32:50,987
call back when you've restarted,
and if it works, you
don't

646
00:32:50,987 --> 00:32:52,397
have an issue.
D.R.

647
00:32:52,397 --> 00:32:55,775
Fay: And for those of you
that
are listening, it was the

648
00:32:55,775 --> 00:33:00,835
percentage sign a space, and not

just the letter i that

649
00:33:00,835 --> 00:33:06,423
followed it as an invisible but
the
capital letter I, because

650
00:33:06,423 --> 00:33:10,235
they did an experiment with the
percentage sign space and a

651
00:33:10,235 --> 00:33:13,548
small i, and it played just

fine.

652
00:33:13,548 --> 00:33:17,800
But once they capitalized the I,
whatever the word is that
they

653
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,340
used in their experiment, it, it
did not work, and so
that's

654
00:33:21,340 --> 00:33:25,060
how they found out exactly what
was going on.

655
00:33:25,060 --> 00:33:31,058
And Jonathan Howard: I would
have
never had that problem,

656
00:33:31,058 --> 00:33:31,740
because I don't capitalize
letters.


657
00:33:31,748 --> 00:33:31,904
Little known fact about me.
Ralph, does anybody else have


658
00:33:31,912 --> 00:33:32,870
anything they want to say?
I Ralph Estep Jr: don't see


659
00:33:32,878 --> 00:33:34,100
anybody else.
Jonathan, at this point,

660
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,100
Jonathan Howard: all right, so I

want to talk about some of the

661
00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:40,160
obsession engines that were in

play in this episode and then

662
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,466
give you a couple takeaways.
But
this episode basically

663
00:33:43,466 --> 00:33:47,708
runs on three obsession worthy
engines
at the same time.

664
00:33:47,708 --> 00:33:50,584
Number one is curiosity, what is
happening?


665
00:33:50,592 --> 00:33:54,085
Why is this happening?
And the questions just keep

666
00:33:54,085 --> 00:33:58,506
piling up on
each other, which
leads to the next obsession

667
00:33:58,506 --> 00:34:01,116
engine, which is
the
escalation.

668
00:34:01,116 --> 00:34:04,320
Every answer creates a weirder
problem.

669
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,018
So
you're getting you're
curious about what's happening,

670
00:34:08,018 --> 00:34:12,000
and each
time you're trying to
get an answer, it's creating a

671
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,820
weirder
problem.
So it builds this escalation in

672
00:34:14,820 --> 00:34:17,760
there.
And what
really drives it home

673
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,212
is you're solving the mystery
alongside
them.

674
00:34:20,212 --> 00:34:23,335
You're yelling at the podcast
saying, why don't you
try

675
00:34:23,335 --> 00:34:25,770
this?
How come you didn't try this?

676
00:34:25,770 --> 00:34:30,754
This will make it
easier.
All of that is building that

677
00:34:30,754 --> 00:34:33,786
obsession worthiness.
You
are actually invested in

678
00:34:33,786 --> 00:34:35,005
this podcast.
Now.

679
00:34:35,005 --> 00:34:37,364
You actually care
about what
happens.

680
00:34:37,364 --> 00:34:41,391
You may not listen to another
episode, but
in this podcast,

681
00:34:41,391 --> 00:34:45,864
you are truly invested, and I
think those
three are key

682
00:34:45,864 --> 00:34:49,179
parts of the entire episode and
why it works
so well.

683
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,039
Ralph Estep Jr: And they used

all three of those brilliantly,

684
00:34:51,039 --> 00:34:53,619
because they frustrated me.
They
annoyed me, they created

685
00:34:53,619 --> 00:34:56,259
tension, and they made me hang

in there, even though I was so

686
00:34:56,259 --> 00:34:59,139
annoyed and frustrated and had

tension that I wanted to hear

687
00:34:59,139 --> 00:35:01,363
how it ended.
And then,
honestly, I was

688
00:35:01,363 --> 00:35:03,439
disappointed in the ending,
because I was like,
Duh, we

689
00:35:03,439 --> 00:35:05,529
could have done that from the
start, give him his own


690
00:35:05,537 --> 00:35:07,479
private feed and solve the
problem, and you wouldn't have


691
00:35:07,487 --> 00:35:09,102
wasted a half an hour of my
time.

692
00:35:09,102 --> 00:35:11,760
Sorry, but that's how I
felt.
Jonathan Howard: But there are


693
00:35:11,768 --> 00:35:13,818
more people that had the
problem, and it wouldn't have


694
00:35:13,826 --> 00:35:16,795
created as good of an episode.
Absolutely Ralph Estep Jr: true.

695
00:35:16,795 --> 00:35:18,372
No,
Jonathan, I'm not
disagreeing with you.

696
00:35:18,372 --> 00:35:22,280
One IO to do that is
100%
true, but it did absolutely get

697
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,920
me on board for the ride the

roller coaster of tension.

698
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,788
And if that was the goal, well
done.


699
00:35:26,796 --> 00:35:29,540
I Jonathan Howard: just want to
point out there were a couple

700
00:35:29,540 --> 00:35:32,078
of the if you're really
interested
in the creativity

701
00:35:32,078 --> 00:35:36,290
of these guys, like a couple of
the cooking
podcast was really

702
00:35:36,290 --> 00:35:37,440
interesting.
Listen to that one.

703
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,180
And then
there was another one
where they interviewed the woman

704
00:35:40,180 --> 00:35:44,496
who is the
host of cereal, and
she had this really interesting,

705
00:35:44,496 --> 00:35:48,080
like, it was
all over the
place because it was about

706
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,700
parentheticals,
because they
were testing if the parentheses

707
00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:54,068
actually impacted
it.
But it was a really interesting

708
00:35:54,068 --> 00:35:56,359
one.
So if you
haven't, I would

709
00:35:56,359 --> 00:35:58,740
those, I would say, are worth
listening to.


710
00:35:58,748 --> 00:36:00,365
They were really interesting.
And D.R.

711
00:36:00,365 --> 00:36:04,260
Fay: you know, how they got

those people to help in their

712
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:09,180
experiment was amazing, because
these are kind of famous people

713
00:36:09,180 --> 00:36:13,380
in their own circles.
You know,
I was very surprised

714
00:36:13,380 --> 00:36:17,190
to hear some of the voices on
there that
they would

715
00:36:17,190 --> 00:36:19,880
participate in this.
That's Ralph Estep Jr: what I

716
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:21,659
was gonna
say they are.
And unfortunately, I didn't know

717
00:36:21,659 --> 00:36:24,074
who they were, but
I knew, Oh,
these must be some important

718
00:36:24,074 --> 00:36:26,426
people, although I
didn't know
who they were.

719
00:36:26,426 --> 00:36:28,660
So, you know.
So if I'm a new
listener,

720
00:36:28,660 --> 00:36:30,980
Jonathan, let me ask this
question, should they have


721
00:36:30,988 --> 00:36:34,125
introduced these people a little
bit more like I heard a serial


722
00:36:34,133 --> 00:36:36,590
before, so when they said
delayed from cereal, and I could

723
00:36:36,590 --> 00:36:39,219

tell this was a big deal,
because the other host was like,

724
00:36:39,219 --> 00:36:41,522

Oh, I can't believe you got
such and such.

725
00:36:41,522 --> 00:36:44,002
But for somebody who
didn't
know those people, there was

726
00:36:44,002 --> 00:36:46,660
still a little bit of a

disconnect for me, because I was

727
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:49,312
like, Okay, that's great, but,

and what's your point?

728
00:36:49,312 --> 00:36:51,600
Should they have said, and this
person
does this, this and

729
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,296
this?
Or would it that have been too

730
00:36:53,296 --> 00:36:54,834
much
of a sidetrack?
D.R.

731
00:36:54,834 --> 00:36:57,160
Fay: I knew who the cooking

lady was because I saw her

732
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,396
series on Netflix.
Jonathan Howard: Yeah, it's


733
00:37:00,404 --> 00:37:03,666
hard, because there was so much
happening in this episode that


734
00:37:03,674 --> 00:37:06,885
it might have been too much,
because there they were going


735
00:37:06,893 --> 00:37:09,552
from one thing to the next thing
to the next thing.

736
00:37:09,552 --> 00:37:13,157
And in order
to keep it moving
like, like they said, they only

737
00:37:13,157 --> 00:37:15,460
played
parts of the podcast
within the episode.

738
00:37:15,460 --> 00:37:18,540
And that was still a
lot.
There was a lot happening.

739
00:37:18,540 --> 00:37:23,120
So I think that, yes, if we're

taking away something from this,

740
00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:26,360
we should make sure that our

audience knows the people that

741
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,620
we're talking to and how they're

involved in the entire thing.

742
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,320
Because even the guy that

actually helped find the

743
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,120
solution was an important person
D.R.

744
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,472
Fay: right Jonathan Howard: at
one of the
podcast networks,

745
00:37:37,472 --> 00:37:39,976
which nobody really would have
known, unless
you're behind

746
00:37:39,976 --> 00:37:41,098
the scenes, D.R.
Fay: right?

747
00:37:41,098 --> 00:37:42,395
Stuff?
He's a
big deal behind the

748
00:37:42,395 --> 00:37:43,330
scenes.
Ralph Estep Jr: And Jonathan,


749
00:37:43,338 --> 00:37:45,675
let me ask you a question that,
does that create an opportunity

750
00:37:45,675 --> 00:37:48,684
for all of us as well?
Is there an opportunity for us

751
00:37:48,684 --> 00:37:51,900
to reach
out to some of these
big name folks and say, Hey,

752
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:54,434
I've got an
idea.
I'm just interested in what they

753
00:37:54,434 --> 00:37:55,762
say, hey, well, that's
a
really good idea.

754
00:37:55,762 --> 00:37:57,479
I would love to do a crossover
with you.

755
00:37:57,479 --> 00:38:00,351
You
know, it may just be a
strategic, you know,


756
00:38:00,359 --> 00:38:02,904
opportunity, because my
suspicion is these folks who


757
00:38:02,912 --> 00:38:06,032
have these teams and all that
they're still looking for


758
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,014
interesting ideas.
They're still looking for

759
00:38:08,014 --> 00:38:10,544
creative ideas.
And
I think it's sometimes we

760
00:38:10,544 --> 00:38:13,380
feel like we can't reach out and

reach to those news people and

761
00:38:13,380 --> 00:38:14,730
say, Hey, would you consider

this?

762
00:38:14,730 --> 00:38:17,664
What do you think of that?
Jonathan, do you think that's a

763
00:38:17,664 --> 00:38:20,714
viable opportunity for people?
Jonathan Howard: So I think if


764
00:38:20,722 --> 00:38:23,600
you're looking for
collaborations, I would look


765
00:38:23,608 --> 00:38:27,555
within your and within your
niche and within the adjacent


766
00:38:27,563 --> 00:38:30,310
niches of the people that are
kind of at your level.

767
00:38:30,310 --> 00:38:32,370
There's
no harm in stretching
a little bit.

768
00:38:32,370 --> 00:38:35,153
There's no harm in reaching

for that one person.

769
00:38:35,153 --> 00:38:38,324
But if you really want to be
tactical about
it, keep it

770
00:38:38,324 --> 00:38:41,384
within your niche or an adjacent
niche, somebody that
can

771
00:38:41,384 --> 00:38:45,480
deliver value for your audience.
And you know, if you
want to

772
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,336
reach make sure it still makes
sense for you and them,


773
00:38:49,344 --> 00:38:52,456
because a really good
collaboration benefits both


774
00:38:52,464 --> 00:38:54,345
people equally.
D.R.

775
00:38:54,345 --> 00:38:57,280
Fay: You know, I got the

impression, and this was not at

776
00:38:57,340 --> 00:39:00,996
all said or depicted in the

episode whatsoever.

777
00:39:00,996 --> 00:39:06,934
But I got it on the inner, you
know, I just,
I felt it that

778
00:39:06,934 --> 00:39:10,494
maybe these people who were
doing these
experiments, maybe

779
00:39:10,494 --> 00:39:14,594
they had a relationship with
these people,
like a prior

780
00:39:14,594 --> 00:39:19,092
relationship, maybe they had
been on one of the
episodes of

781
00:39:19,092 --> 00:39:21,482
reply to all, or something like
that.

782
00:39:21,482 --> 00:39:25,172
And so they
had this kind of
maybe a little touch point with

783
00:39:25,172 --> 00:39:28,472
these people
beforehand, so
maybe that's why they could go

784
00:39:28,472 --> 00:39:30,095
to them.
Ralph Estep Jr: Were they all in

785
00:39:30,095 --> 00:39:31,505

the same work?
Jonathan, is there like a

786
00:39:31,505 --> 00:39:32,870
network here that I
don't know
about?

787
00:39:32,870 --> 00:39:35,060
Or these people are kind of all
in the
same circle?

788
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,460
Jonathan Howard: They're

separate networks, but they're

789
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,800
all kind of on that upper

echelon of podcast level, the

790
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,220
obsession worthy podcast that

you're going to see, they're all

791
00:39:45,220 --> 00:39:49,540
kind of in that playing field.

So I think they were, you know,

792
00:39:49,540 --> 00:39:52,120
looking for people that were in
their network, that they could

793
00:39:52,180 --> 00:39:55,528
really collaborate with.
And all
of them would have

794
00:39:55,528 --> 00:39:58,867
benefited, because the audience
from
cereal, the audience from

795
00:39:58,867 --> 00:40:01,472
the cooking program.
They're all
going to tune into

796
00:40:01,472 --> 00:40:05,550
that podcast so, you know, and
then they can
use it on their

797
00:40:05,550 --> 00:40:07,851
own podcast.
So that's going to help.

798
00:40:07,851 --> 00:40:11,755
That's why
collaboration, why
I wanted to make sure that I had

799
00:40:11,755 --> 00:40:14,320
this
collaborative podcast
episode, because that makes an

800
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,100
obsession
where you that gets
a whole lot of people invested

801
00:40:17,100 --> 00:40:18,616
in it.
Ralph Estep Jr: And I think


802
00:40:18,624 --> 00:40:20,540
that's a good point too.
Even in the business world, we

803
00:40:20,540 --> 00:40:22,414
try to
look for Win, win win
opportunities.

804
00:40:22,414 --> 00:40:26,105
And I think so
many people
approach people with, well, I've

805
00:40:26,105 --> 00:40:28,625
got an idea for
you, because
you're only thinking about what

806
00:40:28,625 --> 00:40:31,280
it's going
to do for you.
If I'm the receiver of that,

807
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,079
okay, that's
nice, Ralph.
You want to come on my show so

808
00:40:34,079 --> 00:40:35,776
that you can steal
some of my
audience.

809
00:40:35,776 --> 00:40:39,232
But what's in it for me?
Well, if I can put
that in the

810
00:40:39,232 --> 00:40:42,080
tender offer at the front end.
Here's what it's in
it for

811
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,131
you.
Here's what it brings to your

812
00:40:44,131 --> 00:40:46,388
audience.
That is
a collaboration on,

813
00:40:46,388 --> 00:40:49,198
you know, superpower, because
you've built
those wins into

814
00:40:49,198 --> 00:40:50,908
it.
I think that's where you were

815
00:40:50,908 --> 00:40:52,687
going with
that, right?
Jonathan, Jonathan Howard: yeah,

816
00:40:52,687 --> 00:40:54,400

absolutely, absolutely.
And I think it's really

817
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,990
important that
you do that.
And I'll tell you when people

818
00:40:56,990 --> 00:40:59,658
pitch me on pod
match and they
just talk about themselves, I

819
00:40:59,658 --> 00:41:00,948
don't care.
I
don't care.

820
00:41:00,948 --> 00:41:03,822
I ignore them right away.
I get so many requests.

821
00:41:03,822 --> 00:41:05,605
I
just sorry.
Ralph Estep Jr: That's kind of


822
00:41:05,613 --> 00:41:08,508
the conversation, John, that you
and I had, because I was on your

823
00:41:08,508 --> 00:41:09,880

show.
And when I reached out to

824
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,070
Jonathan, I said, Here's what I
can do for your audience.

825
00:41:13,070 --> 00:41:16,060
And Jonathan got back to me
really
quickly, because I

826
00:41:16,060 --> 00:41:18,156
think, Jonathan, oh, that's a
really
good point.

827
00:41:18,156 --> 00:41:21,511
It's not something I normally
do, but here's what
value you

828
00:41:21,511 --> 00:41:23,920
can bring my audience, Jonathan
Howard: absolutely.

829
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,931
And
it got you exposure to my
audience, and it helped my


830
00:41:27,939 --> 00:41:31,105
audience actually understand
things like what they should do

831
00:41:31,105 --> 00:41:33,541
with their money.
So that's a great example of it.

832
00:41:33,541 --> 00:41:36,065
I want to
check to see if
anybody else has anything.

833
00:41:36,065 --> 00:41:38,515
Go ahead.
Junaid: Yeah, I think a bigger


834
00:41:38,523 --> 00:41:42,537
example of you sharing like this
podcast, morning show does


835
00:41:42,545 --> 00:41:45,168
exactly that.
We're constantly collaborating.

836
00:41:45,168 --> 00:41:48,941
We're constantly
bringing
people from other areas of the

837
00:41:48,941 --> 00:41:50,922
world.
Each one of us has
a podcast,

838
00:41:50,922 --> 00:41:54,232
and we're coming here together.
And when people
listening to

839
00:41:54,232 --> 00:41:57,136
the episode, and they listen to
our voices,
they're like, oh,

840
00:41:57,136 --> 00:41:59,310
he has a podcast.
Oh, let me go check
that out,

841
00:41:59,310 --> 00:42:01,834
you know.
So there's we're kind of already

842
00:42:01,834 --> 00:42:05,374
doing a
crossover show, if you
think about Ralph Estep Jr: it,

843
00:42:05,374 --> 00:42:07,490
which
actually Junaid, I think
we should talk about that for

844
00:42:07,490 --> 00:42:09,500
just
a second.
This is a great opportunity to

845
00:42:09,500 --> 00:42:13,176
say to everyone
that joins us
here, talk to your friends about

846
00:42:13,176 --> 00:42:15,433
the show.
Talk to
your other people in

847
00:42:15,433 --> 00:42:18,219
your circles about what we do
here
every morning, because

848
00:42:18,219 --> 00:42:21,323
those are the people that will
grow one by
one to bring us a

849
00:42:21,323 --> 00:42:24,055
bigger audience here.
So that is a
brilliant

850
00:42:24,055 --> 00:42:26,745
observation, Junaid, and it's an
opportunity for all
of us to

851
00:42:26,745 --> 00:42:28,873
say, hey, hey, we do this show
in the morning.

852
00:42:28,873 --> 00:42:31,025
You
should really come and
talk about what you do.

853
00:42:31,025 --> 00:42:33,955
They can join
in the chat.
We make it super simple for them

854
00:42:33,955 --> 00:42:35,935
to get involved.

So I just think there's a

855
00:42:35,935 --> 00:42:38,395
collaborative opportunity there,

Junaid, and thank you so much

856
00:42:38,395 --> 00:42:40,278
for bringing that to everybody's
Junaid: attention.

857
00:42:40,278 --> 00:42:42,160
Of course,
can that's what we
do.

858
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,440
Ralph Estep Jr: Jonathan, did

you have anything to summarize

859
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,585
here before we call it a day?

Here, Jonathan Howard: I do have

860
00:42:46,585 --> 00:42:48,900
a
couple takeaways and a final
thought, but I just want to make

861
00:42:48,900 --> 00:42:51,046

sure if there's anybody else
that has anything they want to


862
00:42:51,054 --> 00:42:52,780
share, that they get an
opportunity to do that.

863
00:42:52,780 --> 00:42:54,640
Because
I could talk all day
on this stuff.

864
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,310
I love story time.
Ralph Estep Jr: Looks like we're

865
00:42:57,310 --> 00:42:58,444

good.
Jonathan, so why don't you bring

866
00:42:58,444 --> 00:43:00,132
it home for us?
Jonathan Howard: My friend,


867
00:43:00,140 --> 00:43:01,908
cool.
So the first takeaway is that

868
00:43:01,908 --> 00:43:04,716
tiny, weird problems are

really powerful.

869
00:43:04,716 --> 00:43:09,000
You don't need to have these
huge stakes in
your podcast,

870
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,150
just like I was mentioning to
Dr, when I was
saying how she

871
00:43:12,150 --> 00:43:16,038
could build a story around a
problem that a
client has

872
00:43:16,038 --> 00:43:18,950
their business client podcast
that didn't come out
right,

873
00:43:18,950 --> 00:43:23,134
but she knows what I mean, what
you need is
specificity, like

874
00:43:23,134 --> 00:43:26,540
a real problem, that you're very

specific about a little bit of

875
00:43:26,540 --> 00:43:29,922
mystery and tension in it.
You
need the escalation and

876
00:43:29,922 --> 00:43:32,294
then process that.
You bring them
through that,

877
00:43:32,294 --> 00:43:34,880
and that will create the
emotional
participation.

878
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,112
And I promise you that your
tiny, weird stories
are if,

879
00:43:39,112 --> 00:43:42,469
especially if they're specific,
they're going to
outperform

880
00:43:42,469 --> 00:43:46,744
this giant idea that's generic
and everybody
else touches on

881
00:43:46,744 --> 00:43:49,660
because you have this unique
perspective on it.


882
00:43:49,668 --> 00:43:54,460
So don't shy away from the tiny,
weird problems they do make


883
00:43:54,468 --> 00:43:59,434
engaging podcasts, and then my
other takeaway is make sure your

884
00:43:59,434 --> 00:44:02,040

audience experiences the
discovery with you.

885
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,820
Don't
summarize the journey.
Bring the audience into the

886
00:44:05,820 --> 00:44:08,220
journey.
Let
them hear the confusion,

887
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,139
experience the failures, and

that's a hard one for people.

888
00:44:11,139 --> 00:44:15,437
I get it, but letting people see

the failure helps people

889
00:44:15,437 --> 00:44:19,085
connect with you as a human and
connect
with the podcast as

890
00:44:19,085 --> 00:44:22,124
something they can trust.
Follow through
the experiments

891
00:44:22,124 --> 00:44:25,612
and uncover the answers
alongside your audience,


892
00:44:25,620 --> 00:44:29,770
because that creates investment,
and that creates that trust that

893
00:44:29,770 --> 00:44:33,128

you're looking to create.
And then final thought, the

894
00:44:33,128 --> 00:44:36,980
Roman
Mars, Mazda virus, it
proves that obsession worthy


895
00:44:36,988 --> 00:44:39,324
storytelling is not about the
topic size.

896
00:44:39,324 --> 00:44:42,700
It's about making
the audience
need the answer?

897
00:44:42,700 --> 00:44:45,472
Because once you hear it, you

can't.

898
00:44:45,472 --> 00:44:47,764
Your brain understands just
differently.

899
00:44:47,764 --> 00:44:51,628
It's not a
podcast is breaking
Mazdas.

900
00:44:51,628 --> 00:44:54,406
It's Holy crap.
This is something
that means

901
00:44:54,406 --> 00:44:57,075
something to people, and your
brain just gets it and


902
00:44:57,083 --> 00:44:59,827
connects and that makes a
podcast entertaining and.

903
00:44:59,827 --> 00:45:03,131
Aging
and obsession worthy.
Ralph Estep Jr: Well said,


904
00:45:03,139 --> 00:45:04,390
Jonathan.
Well said, All right, my

905
00:45:04,390 --> 00:45:06,091
friends.
Well, thank you so
much for

906
00:45:06,091 --> 00:45:08,061
joining us today.
We'll be back again tomorrow.

907
00:45:08,061 --> 00:45:10,540
Like I
said, we've got a
special guest tomorrow, Cindy

908
00:45:10,540 --> 00:45:13,671
Harrison, who is
a publicist,
so make sure you join us on

909
00:45:13,671 --> 00:45:16,240
tomorrow's show, and
everybody
else, have a great day today.

910
00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:17,460
Great job today.
Jonathan,