514. 3 Storytelling Tricks That Make Podcasts Addictive

0:00 Ralph Estep Jr: - Good morning podcasters. Today is Monday, May 11, 2026 and this morning we're kicking off another obsession worthy podcast conversation. Everybody hosting today with Jonathan Howard, and Jonathan is bringing us a fun one, an episode from 99% invisible called the Roman Mars, Mazda virus, and the setup is wonderfully strange. A podcast listener can play almost anything in his car, but when he tries to play 99% invisible, his Mazda stereo locks up. So today we're going to talk about why this episode works, how a tiny, oddly specific tech problem becomes a full blown audio mystery, and what podcasters can learn from the storytelling choices, the pacing, the humor, the curiosity and the collaboration between 99% invisible and Reply All walks about why this is a observing, worthy Marc Ronick: morning chat is powered by ironick media helping podcasters launch polish and grow great shows And by content creators accountant helping creators build real business behind their content. Ralph Estep Jr: Well, good morning everyone. And you see that Mark is not joining us today. Mark is back in traveling from seeing his stepson's So he had a late night, so he asked me to jump in and fill

1:30 in for him this morning. So that is what I'm doing. In addition to that, joining me on stage. Here are Jonathan Howard, DR Fay, Junaid, Sid meadows and BC babbles. So we have a great one today. Jonathan with this obsession called the Roman Mars Mazda And before we get started, just want to remind everybody, if you would like to have your show featured on the podcasting morning show, absolutely free, all you've got to do is go to podcasting morning show.com/spotlight once you go to that website again, that's podcasting morning show.com/spotlight just follow the directions there, because we'd love to feature your show on our show and give it a wider audience so people can check it out.

2:14 So John, D.R. Fay: we've gotten any submissions. Ralph Estep Jr: We have, we've gotten a couple of them, so we're still waiting for a few more to get it lined up, but we've gotten a few. I would encourage everybody to go to the website and do that. Listen. yourself some exposure. We're not asking for anything in return. Just tell us about your show. Just 60 seconds. It can be we got one video and we got one audio, which is even cool. So yeah, whatever you can do, just send it to us. Tell us about your show, why, who your audiences and what they would gain from your show. But let's jump right into it. Jonathan, I'm going to turn over the reins to you, my friend. Jonathan Howard: All right. There's a lot to go over in this Let's start talking a little bit about it. It was definitely interesting episode, and there was a lot of things happening. So it's a crossover episode of 99% invisible. And Reply All 99% invisible is a podcast about unnoticed Everyday Life. It explores all the hidden systems, decisions, objects, sounds, symbols, infrastructure, which is what it really explored in this one and design choices that quietly shape human behavior without most of us realizing it. And this particular episode, a man discovers his Mazda cereal crashes every time he plays one specific podcast, and that's 99% invisible, not Spotify, not podcasts in general, only Roman Mars.

3:33 So apparently, Mazda has a But what begins as a tiny tech issue becomes a real, full investigative mystery about the weird fragility of modern weird one. And actually, before I go further, I want to remind everybody why we do obsession worthy podcasts, and that is because we really like to dig into these podcasts and see what we can learn from them so we can on radio bugs, but we can use the storytelling and all the things that happen in this to help make our podcast a little bit better.

4:16 combines mystery, storytelling, investigative journalism, comedy collaboration and live But what's really important is it actually makes the whole process of discovering what is causing this problem the entertainment, which is something that is important for us to take away. And a quick note before we jump into the clips, this is also a collaboration, and I want to remind people that collaborations are a great opportunity for your podcast whenever you can do them, but a good collaboration should be equally beneficial for you and the person you're collaborating with, your audiences should be adjacent, and a collab done right will double your audience for this specific episode, allowing you to grow your own individual audience with people that are.

5:00 Work from the other podcast audience that may have never heard. So whenever that's whenever, that's an opportunity, and it makes sense for you, take that opportunity. All right. So clip one does something really, really well. Within seconds, we understand the problem, the stakes, the absurdity and the whole mystery behind this podcast, and this is in like 30 seconds, right up at the top, so you can hit that first one. Clip: So Ben, not too long ago, got a new car. It was a 2016 Mazda six. And the thing that he was most excited about in his new car was that he could pair his phone using Bluetooth so that he could listen to podcasts. Oh, before he was like an ox in guy, yes. Anyway, for some reason, the radio in his new car refuses to play one podcast and one podcast only, which is the radiotopia podcast, 99% invisible, really, yes, and it's driving him absolutely insane.

6:00 His car, Bluetooth has rejected Roman Mars and his stories. Yes. Jonathan Howard: So there you go, his car, Bluetooth has rejected Roman Mars stories. So that line alone reframes this entire episode. It's not a boring tech issue anymore. It's more a personal and emotional thing. The specificity is what creates the stickiness. Here it's one podcast, one car and a really bizarre issue, but specificity is what makes things memorable. Vagueness ends up killing your podcast. So yeah, Ralph Estep Jr: this certainly wasn't vague from the beginning. Actually, as I was listening to this, I was out doing my morning walk on the farm, and I'm thinking I can understand how frustrating this would be, because I've had tech issues like that before, and it's one of those things where I paid for this tech.

6:50 I just want it to work. How come everything works, except for this? And I got to be honest with you, Jonathan, we haven't gotten into a lot of it, but this episode kind of annoyed me a little bit, because I just wanted to find out, okay, what is the fix here? How are we going to solve this problem? I kept on saying, Oh, come on, Come on, guys, try that. Which is brilliant on their part, because now I am a active participant in this craziness that turns into this podcast. I don't want to take away all your shine, Jonathan, but that was the thing. It really sucked me in from the beginning, because I was like, Oh man, I got to hear how this ends. There's no way I'm turning In fact, I walked like, an extra mile because I wanted to finish it while I was out walking, Jonathan Howard: yeah, and I made a note, actually, a little bit later that I knew people were going to be very frustrated with the build, because some people just want to know how to fix it.

7:36 But the build is really does actually get you invested. We've talked many times about the importance of the curiosity gap or a loop, and that's what this episode really does. It keeps opening new loops. Why was it only this podcast? Why is it only Mazda? Could audio actually break software in a car? Of course, there's Roman Mars cursed. And is this happening to other people, but each answer creates a deeper mystery, and that creates the bingeable storytelling. That's exactly what Ralph was talking about. It gets you to keep going, because you want to find out you're invested now you want to find out the answer. Ralph Estep Jr: I think. Dr, wanted to make a comment.

8:16 Go ahead. Dr, D.R. Fay: yeah, I have a question. So we're talking about Roman Mars. He is the host of 99% so for people who have never listened to 99% Roman Mars is the host of that show, and at some point they start talking about, well, maybe it's the way the host talks. Maybe it's the sound of his voice. So I just wanted to make it clear that he was, he's the host of this show, Roman Mars, okay, Jonathan Howard: yes. However, the people that you hear talking are actually not Roman Mars, because, like I said, it's a crossover episode, D.R. Fay: right? Jonathan Howard: And in most of the clips, you're actually hearing the hosts of the other escaping my mind. Ralph Estep Jr: Jonathan, while we're there, while we're talking about crossover, in case podcasts are, you know, they work on a collaborative episode.

9:16 the other person's podcast, or person's podcast, but it's between the podcast. Ralph Estep Jr: Oh no, I totally television. I know. I like to watch Chicago Fire, Chicago Med, Chicago PD, and they have these crossover episodes. Actually, I think that's a pretty good idea. Isn't it a way to build your audience, potentially, if you can find some crossover audiences, it's probably a very brilliant way to build some audience. Go ahead. Alex, Alex Ballish: Hey, good morning, everybody. Yeah, we used to do a lot of crossover episodes with before the season started and of other podcasts together, and we would do one show, drop it at. One show on all of our platforms, or something similar to that.

10:03 And you, like you said, it's a great way to kind of get your ears to new or your voice to new listeners. And we love doing it. Plus, you know, when you're dealing with what we're dealing with, we have a certain take, and it's nice to hear other people's takes on the same topic. Ralph Estep Jr: Thank you, Alex, You want to move on to the next Jonathan Howard: topic. Sure, if there's nothing else we can talk about the second clip, which the second clip is really just providing proof that this is actually happening. And it does an excellent job highlighting the issue and providing the proof that's needed so that they can actually start running this test. Clip: So he does start playing, but like, the display screen stops working. It totally freezes. The buttons aren't working properly. He has no control.

10:45 It's just for playing on its own. The Hall of Honor is this so you can't interact with the screen at all. It still says whatever I played right before, 99% invisible. And then after about a minute, class over which he saw was massive, the screen just went black, 18 feet wide, and now it's cut off and restarted. And I'm not playing 90% invisible anymore, because it's still playing, it will How could you have a type problem where the trigger was like content? I know it's weird, right? It's very weird. Jonathan Howard: So his car Bluetooth has rejected Roman Mars. That's not completely and this tech problem is now part of the content. So that sentence changes the scale of the mystery. The host understands something important. The audience is no longer invested in the stereo itself. They're actually interested in how this actually exists, and the problem that now becomes almost philosophical. How is this actually happening?

11:44 So we now have a clear and proven dilemma, but the mystery is, how are we going to solve this mystery? And that is really what clip three starts to dive into. Now what follows are some insane podcast experiments where they see if they can isolate the problem, not one, not two, but several. So I forgot to stop and see if anybody had any questions. I'm just running through these. Ralph Estep Jr: Well, this is build. Jonathan. At this very point, I'm thinking, Okay, guys, because I'm a solver, like I'm a So immediately my mind go, Okay, well, clearly it has to do with something in the title of his episode or something he's doing. So guys go do this and this, and I think the next clip is going to take us there, but that's where the frustration started Jonathan Howard: for me, yeah, and I'm sure for you as a solver, the fact that they actually created all of these podcasts to test things, not just change the title and submit something.

12:38 They actually created all of these different podcasts for this. I'm sure it infuriated you. Well, now actually, Ralph Estep Jr: it didn't infuriate me, because I used to work for a software company, and one of the things we had to do, I worked in what we called tech support. I had to help the programmers fix this stuff by recreating it. And I would spend days Jonathan creating these scenarios of, let's put all these things in the same order. And, yeah, it got frustrating, but it was so cool, like, when you figured it out, oh, here's what. It was, some little stupid So yeah, it did build to play, like, Okay, well, They're gonna recreate this. this. I was frustrated by how they did it, but it took me right there, right and they begin to build all these fake podcasts, which turns the investigation into entertainment, because they were really, actually interesting podcasts, D.R. Fay: and with theme music and intros and everything, like a real cover art, like a real podcast, just For all of these experiments, Ralph Estep Jr: they definitely took it to the extreme, didn't they?

13:44 Dr, Jimmy, go ahead and play the third clip. Jonathan, Jonathan Howard: go ahead. You can hit that third clip. Yeah. Clip: So the first podcast we carrot. You know the carrot, which is a little pointy, the pointy upwards arrow, yeah. Okay. It's called carrot space carrot. I'm just gonna play it for you. Okay. God, we are in Alex Coleman territory. That's synth Hello. Welcome to the carrot space. Carrot. I recorded this in my attic. Queen Anne's lace. Annihilates negative. I think I've had enough of this podcast. Okay, so we made this podcast. We uploaded it to podcast apps and to an RSS feed. We gave it to Ben, and I asked him to try it in his car. Go ahead and listen, and we'll see if it breaks your car stereo.

14:35 Jonathan Howard: Hello and Carrot podcast, the audience the novelty as the mystery This keeps a really highly technical episode from becoming dry, because you get the host kind of acting like these curious idiots in the best possible way, and the energy that they're putting into this becomes contagious, because every. Theory gets tested live. And that matters because the had this thing. It used to be an issue, but now, hey, we figured it out. It actually proves, through the action of creating these podcasts, that it's doing the work. It's stepping through it.

15:18 And that matters because the failed attempts, the live reactions. And this is receipt based storytelling, and that's what creates trust in your podcast. Ralph Estep Jr: But that was the Jonathan, because I said, just name. What is the big deal here. Put the same name, 99% invisible space something. And let's just do that. So I got to be honest, as I'm out walking, I'm going, dudes, let's just make this simple. Let's cut to the chase, like before they even let that out of the bag, is this could be an issue. I'm thinking, why don't you just do that? Jonathan Howard: Because they're good and it would be a good Go ahead. And D.R.

16:02 Fay: they even mentioned that when they finally did do that, the other person who's he's talking to said, Well, you should have done this from the oops, Ralph Estep Jr: but it did build the tension. Jonathan, and if that was the goal, then I give them an A plus for effort in building tension, because it made me stressed out. Jonathan Howard: Yeah, and, you know, as we get to this point now, as we're going into clip four, it seems like all the logical explanations have failed, which is, again, that escalation that keeps the listener locked in, because we've invested in this point. And I know, you know, we've listened to 32nd clips here, but keeps us locked in, and now we've invested all this time, we Clip: So Roman's whole theory not seem to be founded. It doesn't seem to be founded.

17:04 And so at this point, I just start thinking that it has to be something within the file itself that they are uploading that's busted, that it doesn't actually have anything to do with the percent sign. Interesting. But then Ben tells us something that, again, befuddles us, okay, which is Ben found a copy of a 99% visible episode on YouTube and tried playing that over his car stereo. So he was like, I'm gonna see if pirated 99 pi works, yeah, and it breaks the car. It breaks the car. I mean, it breaks the same thing, yeah? Which is weird, because it just means it's not actually anything podcast to YouTube, that's like a totally new file.

17:46 Yes, Jonathan Howard: now we're frustrated. Now we're really frustrated, because every time they think they solved it, something else breaks, which creates the momentum in the story. But the audience is thinking, Okay, what is really going on here. And maybe since I normally do five clips, we can actually see what's going on in this next clip. Ralph Estep Jr: Jonathan, before point something out, a brilliant when they started this clip, that music got me more stressed out than I was before I started hearing it. Because then I'm putting it new name, and I'm hearing this thing like, oh, it's sucking me in, right? So I think we can all take away from that. If you've got a moment like that in your content, that was a brilliant use of sound, what we call soundscape, to make that happen. Jonathan Howard: Yeah, absolutely. And the music can build the tension as well as we be a breakthrough moment, we got to figure this out. So we finally uncover the tiny, invisible system behind this whole story.

18:49 In this clip, let's find out. Clip: Kurt says, I have a theory. And the theory is that in the programming language C, uh huh. Oh, I know what it is. I know what happened. Literally, 99% means something. It means turn off your stereo in the programming language C, you're close, but not exactly in the programming language C, basically, in some scenarios, character immediately following me, the character immediately following the percent sign. rather than like text, and start asking you to run commands. Jonathan Howard: So we don't quite get to that resolution yet, but we think we're a lot closer. So the programming language T must be to blame, and that's a complicated answer.

19:39 So the host kind of frames it technically. The audience doesn't need to understand programming language C or C Plus Plus or whatever. They just need to understand that there's this weird symbol that broke everything. So that's where we are. But is C actually to blame? So the episode reveals the answer. Is still wrong, and this is where it truly becomes a something that would frustrate I get it. I want to hit that sixth clip. There's a lot of clips in this one, and I got some stuff to talk about, but if anybody has anything before we jump into it. Clip: So our operating theory the radio because the percent meant something in the Brandon told us was no, that C. It was written in a totally different programming language, okay?

20:35 And what Brandon thinks the problem is, is that the code should tell the radio to ignore things that it doesn't understand or that don't mean But in this case, for whatever reason, it's not so the radio sees percent I and just keeps desperately trying to figure out what it means. So it's like it's having a panic I, percent, I, percent, I. Jonathan Howard: Brilliant way of describing it, because that's exactly what I felt like. Like. this is going to do this, why is Why? Why? Why? So, you know that built energy that push really, really drove this clip and us towards the end before we do that, how I did have a question, really about how you can create your own tension in your own podcast, like, how could you as a creator, create some tension in your podcast that's not going to make people go crazy, but is going to keep them interested in what you're offering.

21:45 D.R. Fay: I got to admit, Jonathan, that sometimes it's very hard for me to figure out how this relates to the podcasts that I work on as a producer. For instance, the podcast with my client who is the seven figure business coach, or the client who is the holistically healthy coach. So I'm trying to figure out how tension can be in those podcasts. They interview other people, so I don't know, I'm coming to you for help. Jonathan Howard: Yeah, well, and when you're interviewing people, if you plan out an interview, if That really touches on a problem that their audience is having, and this person is going to help them solve that problem. You can start with really, like, pushing on that problem a little bit, creating that tension, where you're talking about the problem that they're facing and why it's so frustrating, and how come it's stopping them from making progress, or anything along those lines. And then you can start to build in some quick first steps, a quick solution that's going to help them move to the next level.

23:08 And when you build it, and you actually don't fully answer the question, you don't fully solve the problem until the end of the podcast, that's creating tension, that's actually getting them into that curiosity loop, where they feel like the podcast is about them and it matters, and they want to Ralph Estep Jr: And there's some Jonathan, I think, is what is when you're thinking about even if you've already done the interview, you can still go back and build these tension points in, because you can go back and think through it. It doesn't have to be just this long. I'm just going to hit play and let it go. This is where you can build in and cut some things up to really build that tension into that episode. Dr, so that might help you.

23:51 Dr, if you think intentionally, what are some cliffhangers that I can grab this little piece from over here and move it over here and becomes a thing the audience doesn't even realize that you did that, but they get the benefit of the takeaway from that, D.R. Fay: right? Maybe it could be a hybrid of an interview show and narrative. Do you know what I mean? Maybe kind of marry them a little bit, Jonathan Howard: and whenever you have storytelling that's built in tension, so whenever if, even if the guest has a really strong story to tell. You can use that to build attention and get people interested as well. So having them tell a story, connecting with it, making sure it lands, the point that you want to get across. But the one thing I would say with that, and I say this about a lot of the podcasts we actually look at, you have to start with a purpose, with a statement of what people are going to get out of that podcast, so that you're then building towards that.

24:46 Ralph Estep Jr: I just wanted to just give everybody a preview of Tomorrow on the show, we're going to have Cindy Harrison, who is a publicist, so make sure you join us tomorrow at 8am she's going to talk to you about. How publicity can work for your podcast that'll be tomorrow at 8am again. Her name is Cindy Harrison, so make sure you join us tomorrow if you're interested in publicity or even Hey about this one identity you know, identity protection, as you're starting to build an audience, she's gonna have a great episode about that. So that's what we're going to talk about on tomorrow's show. Jonathan Howard: All right, very Thank you. Ralph and Dr, does anybody else have, you know, a question about how they could build tension in their own podcast before we move on to the next clip? All right, so we're getting to the payoff here. It's small, weird and incredibly After listening to all this, we're finally reaching that point where it feels human and it's not this nagging thing in the back of our heads anymore. So you can hit that next one.

25:55 Clip: So our operating theory the radio because the percent meant something in the But what Brandon told us was no, that program wasn't even written in C. It was written in a totally different programming language. Okay? And what Brandon thinks the problem is that the code should tell the radio to ignore understand or that don't mean But in this case, for whatever reason, it's not so the radio sees percent I and just keeps desperately trying to figure out what it means. So it's like it's having a panic I, percent, I, percent I. Jonathan Howard: Let's hit number seven. Ralph Estep Jr: Sorry about that. I think we got out of sequence together. We'll go right to number seven. Thank you.

26:41 Jonathan Clip: Andrew kuwitz from PRX had a very sweet idea. Maybe we got to publish a version of 99% invisible with some slightly different titles or something. Mazda version of the feed. That would be great. That'd be super cool. There's just like a 99% invisible for Ben and other Mazda owners feed. Well, I can say that people in Nissan's have also reported having this problem, but yes, for Mazda owners and Nissan owners who are having problems with the specific infotainment system, that's a very niche podcast. So I called Ben up one more time. Just let me know if when you got it set up and ready to roll. Well, dude, this is 99% invisible.

27:22 I'm Roman Mars. Tim Harford is a master at picking up the perfect little story, and everything's working. Fine, economic principle, yep. So this totally works. It's plain, normally, not freezing at all. D.R. Fay: So one thing I think, that we fail to acknowledge is that they found out throughout all of these experiments, they found out that Ben, who was like they were set to do all these experiments. They found out that Ben was not the only one that the host of 99% invisible has heard from own Mazdas and who have the this Mazda. He's heard the same complaint, and also some Nissan drivers as well.

28:18 And so I think that should know that now there's this maybe that are kind of doing this, but what he wound up doing was almost creating, like a private podcast for them, in a way, and it was very satisfying at the end. I gotta say, yeah, Jonathan Howard: yeah. And, you know, as it's going through, it did create, they created a Mazda safe version of 99% invisible, and the specificity of that makes it memorable, but also it's so niche that the audience feels rewarded, and they feel like they actually were a part of the process and they did the things that were required to get Now I will say this podcast was really difficult for me to break down, because there were so many different things happening, and I wanted to get a clip of all the podcasts.

29:15 And, you know, there was a lot happening, so I would recommend going and listening to this episode to hear all the different things that they went through, because it was engaging It was just very hard to break down. D.R. Fay: I have a short question to make. I have a confession. At one point, they gave us the payoff that they now know what it's about, and the host of the show created like a private podcast for all the Mazda owners. But then they said, We will, after this break, we'll return and let you listen to those podcasts. That's when I turned it off, because I had already heard little bits and pieces of those things building up to it, and I turned it off.

30:00 Is just in it for the resolve of what the problem was. And so I didn't go past that Ralph Estep Jr: same thing. Dr, I did the exact same thing. Dr, when I heard that, I was like, Okay, I'm escaping now, because I need to go hear how I don't need to hear how the sausage was made for me. I've got the resolution now. That said, I think if I was really into the show, and I was really into it the way they structured that I think was probably better, because if they had put that in the actual episode, like more of it, I think I would have been frustrated even more, and I Fay: yeah, and they gave us a little taste. I mean, if they hadn't given us a little taste, maybe I would have wanted to hear exactly what it was going on, but they gave us a little taste during the whole thing of each one, and that was enough for me. It really was, Ralph Estep Jr: yeah, it's like, they give you a little a little nub, and you're like, I'll take the nub and I'll run with it.

30:54 But the thing is, I would have if you agree with me or not. I might have said during the episode, hey, if you want to the end. I think they missed an opportunity there, because I think that might have been a brilliant move if they had said, like, hey, don't forget, at the end of the episode, we're going to play all of these that we created for you. I don't know, Jonathan, you might disagree with me, but I think there was an opportunity. Jonathan Howard: There was an And I know it said it in the show notes. So right at the top of the show notes, it mentioned that these were available, and if you wanted all of them, they were on the reply all feed. So they only included a couple of them on the end of this podcast. But if you wanted all seven of them, those experimental ones were all on the reply all feed. And that was in the show notes, I believe. But you did Ralph Estep Jr: we could have, right? We could take a half an hour and talk about show notes, but, like, I wouldn't even thought to look there. But if they had just said, Hey, at the end of the episode, we're going to play some of these because I was a little bit interested.

31:54 But like, dr, at this point, okay, I figured out the resolution. They didn't really solve the problem. Because here's the funny thing, Jonathan, you don't have a clip about it, but at one point I kind of felt like it was back to the whole tech support. Have you rebooted your machine? And they basically said to Ben, is there a firmware upgrade that you could get? And he's like, Well, I don't want to spend the money on that. And I was like, Okay, well, you know, as Mars or Roman Mars, I would have said, like, dude, go do your part. And that's, I sound mean, but it's like, it's like, the first thing they tell you when you call tech support, have you rebooted your machine? And I just felt like, oh, man, this could have all been resolved. So now we're creating this big situation that probably something in the firmware to the radio Mazda and Nissan have already fixed, but now we're going to go fix something that doesn't really need to be fixed, but it's frustrating to somebody, which it made for a good episode, don't get me wrong, but it's still it's back to that thing of, can you restart your machine and then call back when you've restarted, and if it works, you don't have an issue. D.R.

32:52 Fay: And for those of you that are listening, it was the percentage sign a space, and not followed it as an invisible but the capital letter I, because they did an experiment with the percentage sign space and a small i, and it played just But once they capitalized the I, whatever the word is that they used in their experiment, it, it did not work, and so that's how they found out exactly what was going on. And Jonathan Howard: I would have never had that problem, because I don't capitalize letters. Little known fact about me. Ralph, does anybody else have anything they want to say? I Ralph Estep Jr: don't see anybody else. Jonathan, at this point, Jonathan Howard: all right, so I obsession engines that were in give you a couple takeaways. But this episode basically runs on three obsession worthy engines at the same time.

33:47 Number one is curiosity, what is happening? Why is this happening? And the questions just keep piling up on each other, which leads to the next obsession engine, which is the escalation. Every answer creates a weirder problem. So you're getting you're curious about what's happening, and each time you're trying to get an answer, it's creating a weirder problem. So it builds this escalation in there. And what really drives it home is you're solving the mystery alongside them. You're yelling at the podcast saying, why don't you try this? How come you didn't try this? This will make it easier. All of that is building that obsession worthiness. You are actually invested in this podcast. Now.

34:35 You actually care about what happens. You may not listen to another episode, but in this podcast, you are truly invested, and I think those three are key parts of the entire episode and why it works so well. Ralph Estep Jr: And they used because they frustrated me. They annoyed me, they created tension, and they made me hang annoyed and frustrated and had how it ended. And then, honestly, I was disappointed in the ending, because I was like, Duh, we could have done that from the start, give him his own private feed and solve the problem, and you wouldn't have wasted a half an hour of my time. Sorry, but that's how I felt. Jonathan Howard: But there are more people that had the problem, and it wouldn't have created as good of an episode. Absolutely Ralph Estep Jr: true.

35:16 No, Jonathan, I'm not disagreeing with you. One IO to do that is 100% true, but it did absolutely get me on board for the ride the And if that was the goal, well done. I Jonathan Howard: just want to point out there were a couple of the if you're really interested in the creativity of these guys, like a couple of the cooking podcast was really interesting. Listen to that one. And then there was another one where they interviewed the woman who is the host of cereal, and she had this really interesting, like, it was all over the place because it was about parentheticals, because they were testing if the parentheses actually impacted it. But it was a really interesting one. So if you haven't, I would those, I would say, are worth listening to.

35:58 They were really interesting. And D.R. Fay: you know, how they got experiment was amazing, because these are kind of famous people in their own circles. You know, I was very surprised to hear some of the voices on there that they would participate in this. That's Ralph Estep Jr: what I was gonna say they are. And unfortunately, I didn't know who they were, but I knew, Oh, these must be some important people, although I didn't know who they were. So, you know. So if I'm a new listener, Jonathan, let me ask this question, should they have introduced these people a little bit more like I heard a serial before, so when they said delayed from cereal, and I could But for somebody who didn't know those people, there was still a little bit of a like, Okay, that's great, but, Should they have said, and this person does this, this and this? Or would it that have been too much of a sidetrack? D.R.

36:54 Fay: I knew who the cooking series on Netflix. Jonathan Howard: Yeah, it's hard, because there was so much happening in this episode that it might have been too much, because there they were going from one thing to the next thing to the next thing. And in order to keep it moving like, like they said, they only played parts of the podcast within the episode. And that was still a lot. There was a lot happening. So I think that, yes, if we're we should make sure that our we're talking to and how they're Because even the guy that solution was an important person D.R.

37:35 Fay: right Jonathan Howard: at one of the podcast networks, which nobody really would have known, unless you're behind the scenes, D.R. Fay: right? Stuff? He's a big deal behind the scenes. Ralph Estep Jr: And Jonathan, let me ask you a question that, does that create an opportunity for all of us as well? Is there an opportunity for us to reach out to some of these big name folks and say, Hey, I've got an idea. I'm just interested in what they say, hey, well, that's a really good idea. I would love to do a crossover with you. You know, it may just be a strategic, you know, opportunity, because my suspicion is these folks who have these teams and all that they're still looking for interesting ideas. They're still looking for creative ideas. And I think it's sometimes we feel like we can't reach out and say, Hey, would you consider What do you think of that? Jonathan, do you think that's a viable opportunity for people? Jonathan Howard: So I think if you're looking for collaborations, I would look within your and within your niche and within the adjacent niches of the people that are kind of at your level.

38:30 There's no harm in stretching a little bit. There's no harm in reaching But if you really want to be tactical about it, keep it within your niche or an adjacent niche, somebody that can deliver value for your audience. And you know, if you want to reach make sure it still makes sense for you and them, because a really good collaboration benefits both people equally. D.R. Fay: You know, I got the all said or depicted in the But I got it on the inner, you know, I just, I felt it that maybe these people who were doing these experiments, maybe they had a relationship with these people, like a prior relationship, maybe they had been on one of the episodes of reply to all, or something like that.

39:21 And so they had this kind of maybe a little touch point with these people beforehand, so maybe that's why they could go to them. Ralph Estep Jr: Were they all in network here that I don't know about? Or these people are kind of all in the same circle? Jonathan Howard: They're all kind of on that upper obsession worthy podcast that kind of in that playing field. looking for people that were in their network, that they could really collaborate with. And all of them would have benefited, because the audience from cereal, the audience from the cooking program. They're all going to tune into that podcast so, you know, and then they can use it on their own podcast. So that's going to help.

40:07 That's why collaboration, why I wanted to make sure that I had this collaborative podcast episode, because that makes an obsession where you that gets a whole lot of people invested in it. Ralph Estep Jr: And I think that's a good point too. Even in the business world, we try to look for Win, win win opportunities. And I think so many people approach people with, well, I've got an idea for you, because you're only thinking about what it's going to do for you. If I'm the receiver of that, okay, that's nice, Ralph. You want to come on my show so that you can steal some of my audience. But what's in it for me? Well, if I can put that in the tender offer at the front end. Here's what it's in it for you. Here's what it brings to your audience. That is a collaboration on, you know, superpower, because you've built those wins into it. I think that's where you were going with that, right? Jonathan, Jonathan Howard: yeah, important that you do that. And I'll tell you when people pitch me on pod match and they just talk about themselves, I don't care. I don't care.

41:00 I ignore them right away. I get so many requests. I just sorry. Ralph Estep Jr: That's kind of the conversation, John, that you and I had, because I was on your Jonathan, I said, Here's what I can do for your audience. And Jonathan got back to me really quickly, because I think, Jonathan, oh, that's a really good point. It's not something I normally do, but here's what value you can bring my audience, Jonathan Howard: absolutely. And it got you exposure to my audience, and it helped my audience actually understand things like what they should do with their money. So that's a great example of it. I want to check to see if anybody else has anything. Go ahead. Junaid: Yeah, I think a bigger example of you sharing like this podcast, morning show does exactly that. We're constantly collaborating.

41:45 We're constantly bringing people from other areas of the world. Each one of us has a podcast, and we're coming here together. And when people listening to the episode, and they listen to our voices, they're like, oh, he has a podcast. Oh, let me go check that out, you know. So there's we're kind of already doing a crossover show, if you think about Ralph Estep Jr: it, which actually Junaid, I think we should talk about that for just a second. This is a great opportunity to say to everyone that joins us here, talk to your friends about the show. Talk to your other people in your circles about what we do here every morning, because those are the people that will grow one by one to bring us a bigger audience here. So that is a brilliant observation, Junaid, and it's an opportunity for all of us to say, hey, hey, we do this show in the morning.

42:28 You should really come and talk about what you do. They can join in the chat. We make it super simple for them to get involved. collaborative opportunity there, for bringing that to everybody's Junaid: attention. Of course, can that's what we do. Ralph Estep Jr: Jonathan, did here before we call it a day? a couple takeaways and a final thought, but I just want to make share, that they get an opportunity to do that. Because I could talk all day on this stuff. I love story time. Ralph Estep Jr: Looks like we're it home for us? Jonathan Howard: My friend, cool. So the first takeaway is that tiny, weird problems are You don't need to have these huge stakes in your podcast, just like I was mentioning to Dr, when I was saying how she could build a story around a problem that a client has their business client podcast that didn't come out right, but she knows what I mean, what you need is specificity, like a real problem, that you're very mystery and tension in it. You need the escalation and then process that. You bring them through that, and that will create the emotional participation.

43:34 And I promise you that your tiny, weird stories are if, especially if they're specific, they're going to outperform this giant idea that's generic and everybody else touches on because you have this unique perspective on it. So don't shy away from the tiny, weird problems they do make engaging podcasts, and then my other takeaway is make sure your Don't summarize the journey. Bring the audience into the journey. Let them hear the confusion, experience the failures, and I get it, but letting people see connect with you as a human and connect with the podcast as something they can trust. Follow through the experiments and uncover the answers alongside your audience, because that creates investment, and that creates that trust that Roman Mars, Mazda virus, it proves that obsession worthy storytelling is not about the topic size.

44:39 It's about making the audience need the answer? Because once you hear it, you Your brain understands just differently. It's not a podcast is breaking Mazdas. It's Holy crap. This is something that means something to people, and your brain just gets it and connects and that makes a podcast entertaining and. Aging and obsession worthy. Ralph Estep Jr: Well said, Jonathan. Well said, All right, my friends. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. We'll be back again tomorrow. Like I said, we've got a special guest tomorrow, Cindy Harrison, who is a publicist, so make sure you join us on tomorrow's show, and everybody else, have a great day today. Great job today. Jonathan,