The Poltergeist Boy: The School Under Siege Part 2

The scientist,

the wraiths and me.

Do you know the white, searing, logical light the brain can focus into the dark corners of the mind?

Its cold, fresh sunrise of a new dawn. And the warm, comforting confidence things will work out.

Be warned, my friend.

Brighter lights cast darker shadows until the zebra patterns turn you blind.

So at three in the morning,

when everything you rationalized away bites back,

forcing you to shout,

how can I fight back against these things I know simply cannot be and I must not be able to see what's wrong. Why's logic lost its spell and its potency to exorcise those dark, living, shadowy forms.

Yet a calm voice from within says they live by rules too,

so you need to find out what they may be.

These will form your sword and shield when they are in your domain,

so you'll weather their storms.

The family followed by unseen forces.

The school struggling to contain the inexplicable.

What happens when the paranormal refuses to stay put?

In part one of our interview with Kieran Farrell, we uncovered the terrifying events that unfolded on what was supposed to be an ordinary family holiday.

The entities that didn't just haunt the holiday home,

but followed him back to London and even into his boarding school.

The bizarre and disturbing activity that forced his school to seek help from psychical researchers,

the church,

and even Ed and Lorraine Warren.

And the conflicting methods used to investigate and contain the phenomena.

But the story doesn't end there.

In part two, tonight we go even deeper into the mystery.

How many entities were there?

How did they disrupt the school?

And what happened in the dream shared by multiple students and staff.

Join me as Kieran shares the different profiles of the spirits that followed him.

The most spectacular and unexplainable events that occurred,

the existing hauntings at his school.

Who were these ghosts and why were they there?

The psychic testing the school carried out to determine if Kieran was at the centre of the disturbances.

The Warren's role in investigating Kieran himself and what they discovered.

The lessons he took from these experiences that shaped his future as a paranormal investigator.

The deeper we go,

the more the lines blur between investigation and experience,

between the observer and the observed.

Are hauntings external?

Or do they somehow become a part of us?

Don't miss part two of this fascinating conversation with Kieran Farrell right here on Haunted History Chronicles.

So, Kieran, you mentioned when we chatted previously that there were a number of different entities that followed you back the haunted holiday to your home and then to your boarding school.

Can you give me an indication about the different profiles of the activity caused by Each of them,

and how this really then disrupted the work of the school.

Yes.

One of them was Dr. George Pearce, who was a sort of an angry sort of ghost or poltergeist,

which we, as myself,

my sister and members of the other family,

came to know as the man in the Black Suit, because we saw him so many times.

Now, he was father of Linda and also Chudley. He died in a nursing home in 1928, which I've confirmed from my own researches. But Linda actually told me that that's what had happened and she was there more or less when he died,

as evidenced by the death certificate. He died of exactly what I knew he had done in the place where I had been told he had died, which corresponded to various bits and pieces of psychically derived information that I already had.

So the death certificate confirmed all that.

So his role was largely protective over his family, that being Linda and Chudley trying to protect them and protect the family's dirty secret that both Linda and Chudleigh were involved in murders.

The next sort of, I don't know, person on the list would be Leonard,

who was the invisible brother that I've mentioned before.

The spirit that Linda and her friend Vera, who ran the boarding house in which we stayed for the haunted holiday,

mentioned as being the man about the house that wasn't.

He was also known to us as the man in the Brown Suit because of sightings of him.

He was the person who was the murderer and he was driven mad in the end by what he had done and probably because he'd been haunted, according to what I was told by Linda and Vera.

So he committed suicide.

There is no record of his death and Linda and Vera kept him on the electoral register, which they should not have done because it's illegal. Long after he passed away,

trying to maintain the pretence that he was still alive when he was not.

Then there were the murder victims themselves,

Susan,

who was very angry about her betrayal.

Chudley, who she was desperately in love with because he,

along with Leonard, were the two people responsible for her death,

along with two conspirators,

Linda and Vera.

So she was confused and angry and had very mixed feelings towards me, who she believed to be Chudley.

There was also another person, Sybil.

Now, she was a confused kind of spirit, to a certain extent, poltergeist.

She was Leonard's first wife and Leonard and Linda conspired to kill her, which they did.

Leonard performing the actual deed and Linda covering up afterwards,

so she has something in common with Susan. They were both murder victims of One you know, of the same people to a certain extent, particularly where Leonard is concerned.

Then there was somebody else, Ollie Ossie.

Now, that sounds like an incredible name,

but it's an abbreviation of her first name and her second name. I actually found her in record, so I was able to prove her existence.

She was Susan's friend and protective towards Susan.

Then there were phantasms of the living at the time who then become,

well,

ghosts, I suppose,

in the form of Linda and Vera and Chudleigh, their younger selves.

Although it's difficult to tell whether these were actually independent phantasms of the living or whether they were in some way linked to or extensions of the deceased people involved. Dr.

George Pearce, Leonard, Susan and Sybil.

Ollie did die, but much later.

So again, she was a sort of a phantasm of the living, possibly or possibly. Again,

it wasn't something that was independent. It was something that was dependent on some of these other characters.

So that's a very complicated setup which took time to work out,

but myself and the girl from the other family already had a head start in doing so because Vera,

fearing the judgment of the Almighty that a murder,

two murders that she knew of,

involved with one as a conspirator and knew of the second, knew of the earlier one,

which was Sipples,

would be judged harshly and condemned. And therefore she was prepared to work with me and the girl from the other family to try and understand what was going on in order to obtain at least some salvation.

Linda, on the other hand, wanted to take the family's dirty secrets to the grave.

And that's, in a sense, where Dr. George comes in backing Linda because he didn't want any of that coming out. He didn't want his children to be in a position of being held up against the Almighty and found wanting.

Now, this sounds all very spiritual, but there is a very,

very spiritual dimension to this,

which I will come on to.

So that's really the list of people that were involved.

Now, I don't see that there's any particular demarcation between a ghost spirit and a poltergeist in the sense that poltergeist is, as the original German term says, a noisy spirit.

So the reason I've put poltergeist in front of a connection with all of these to a large extent, is. Is because they engage in physical activity, the movement of physical objects at a distance,

interactions with people, pushing people and causing harm to them.

So in that sense, a poltergeist.

But they could be seen and were seen and witnessed by many Particularly at the boarding school, a lot of the boys and some of the staff as well.

So that's not usual for a poltergeist.

A spirit is something that a lot of people think is something that you sort of communicate with through a seance or a Ouija board or whatever. And they lack substance.

Although there's a general sort of pecking order that goes from ghost, which is insubstantial and just an image roaming around and is some sort of environmental stone technologies.

A spirit which is intelligent and can be communicated with and a poltergeist which is, you know, very definitely has physical power over other people and over its environment. However that actually works is another matter.

But certainly from my experience,

these people or entities, whatever you want to term them,

had that power over their environment and other people,

as I will relate.

So, Kiran, you mentioned that, you know, there had been some pretty spectacular incidents that had occurred as a result of this.

Do you want to give us some examples of the sorts of things that happened?

Well, the very first thing was I noticed that there was some presences in my room at home. I made my way to the point where we were picked up, which was Waterloo Station, I remember, or possibly Victoria, but I think it was Waterloo.

And there was a presence that followed me.

Now, straight away, this caused problems with some of the other parents and the boys.

The presence got into the van with me and caused problems.

So that was the first indication that things were not going to work out well.

So that presence was there right the way from the start.

And I knew that this was basically Susan,

but I knew there were others associated with her.

All these characters that I mentioned that I had already got an idea of and knew about from the haunted holiday as a result of work with the girl from the other family and sightings and observations and so on from other family members.

One of the incidents that I'd like to speak a little bit more about was the one which I've already mentioned, the automatic writing incident,

where after experiencing the same lucid, telepathic, veridical dream many times, at least 10 times in one night, I felt very sick that morning.

And I went into my classroom as I knew I had to write something down.

So I did. I wrote the inscription of the lighter down several times.

Now, when I'd done that, I was in the process of doing that. I saw my class teacher coming into the room and I knew she was there.

And I couldn't relate to her. There was sort of like an invisible barrier between me and her.

And what happened was that she then went to get her husband, who was the headteacher.

And he decided that he was going to rouse me out of that stupor.

And the sort of character of the school,

as I mentioned, the discipline was, you know, very tough. You were expected to do what you were told, and if you didn't, you suffered the consequences.

So he decided that he was going to ignore this kind of barrier.

He charged through it.

He picked me up from when I was writing at my. Trying to write at my desk, although by now I was white and shaking.

Grabbed me, pushed me up against the wall,

pinned me up against the wall,

demanding to know what the.

Something, something. I was playing at the presence which had been by my side and then behind me,

almost guiding. My hand,

slipped to the side, to one side of him.

And then, strangely, it seemed to form on the other side of me as well. Slid in between us and pushed him away.

It pushed him away to the extent that it made him fall over backwards.

He got up and started to move back again, not accepting the situation for what it was,

and tried again to pin me against the wall. I'd slumped down by this stage against the wall. So he was going to have another go at me in some form,

but was pushed back. He was thrown into a soft corner of the room where there were some chairs and there was a small sort of library section.

And at that point his wife said to him,

I think this one is stronger than you are.

Which was a reference back to their experiences when they were courting,

as she had been plagued by poltergeist.

He denied that this could possibly be true in very downright, forthright terms.

So he got up and made a beeline for him, only to find now that that presence had solidified into a full apparition.

And that was the apparition of Susan holding a hand out.

No, I will not have you harm him.

She said,

I heard it. He heard it.

Her teacher's wife heard it.

He took no notice.

She moved her hand back and made a pushing motion and knocked him over.

That is the power that she had.

She knocked him over without touching him.

He was thrown back against the chairs.

And this time there was a whole lot of things there. The books whirling around and so on and so forth as sort of a maelstrom of books and objects whirling around him.

And he tried to get up again,

was unable to do so.

The incident was concluded in the sense that I now was able to communicate with my class teacher. His wife saying that I need. She said, you've got to do something.

And I said, the only thing I can think of doing is to ask Susan to let him be.

But she's not going to do that unless he promises not to hurt me.

To cut a long story short, that's what happened. But he was not satisfied with that.

One of the things that comes out of this is, is Susan's very protective nature against me because she believes me to be Chudley.

So she best loves, intensely loves me, him and hates him for what he did to her,

killing her.

So as far as she's concerned, I am her emotional property. But more than that, I am her property. I am hers to do with what she wills.

That's a very uncomfortable position to be in.

On another occasion, for example,

I was subject to a disciplinary procedure which I prefer not to go into.

But this angered Susan.

Now this took place in the common room and was witnessed by all the boys in the school at the time, without exception,

because these discipline sessions at that time were common.

And it was also witnessed by all the staff with one or two exceptions.

Susan took exception to what was going on.

Now the common room was composed of a small room which held a ping pong table, full size table tennis table.

There were chairs and tables enough to seat all of the boys and staff for various activities and so on.

And a snooker table which was the pride and joy of the school.

We used to have opportunity to play snook or billiards in that table.

She picked the table up,

put it on its side and slid it towards me. I was being helped by the headteacher and a member of Kirstoff Patrick that I've mentioned before.

Now to do that takes incredible strength.

Certainly not the strength of a teenage girl or a young woman of about 20, which I estimated she was.

So again,

incredible strength there.

That did break the spell to a certain extent, but it didn't alter the punishment I received.

Did reduce it,

but didn't eliminate it.

Now after this incident took place,

after a period of time,

the staff put the snooker table back where it was.

It took six of them.

Some couple of years later, when the green baize of the table had worn through because it had been, you know, purchased, it was second hand purchase anyway.

They required six men to pick the thing up, lift it up and to maneuver it out of the school, to put it in a van, to take it to the workshop to replace the bays.

Four could just about lift it,

six,

you could manoeuvre it,

but that's certainly not the power that a young woman would have.

And when I Looked at the table afterwards,

I found what I anticipated I would find handprints in the places on the table that you would anticipate they would be.

If somebody had picked the table up from the side and turned it over and then pushed it,

despite the fact that, you know, the table was far too heavy for any single living person to have done that,

nevertheless those handprints existed.

Another incident occurred with the table tennis table,

for example,

that again,

Susan took this table and she lifted it up and threw it a short distance up into the air and it crashed down again.

There were handprints where you'd expect them to be,

even though the span between them was far greater than would be expected from the hands of or the reach of a young woman.

The handprints were characteristic of a young woman,

not a man,

not a boy.

So this was part of the evidence that ended up being used to say, look,

this cannot be an extension of Kieran's psyche.

This is not psychokinesis in the sense that it is not his rebellious psyche that is the problem here.

It is some sort of external ghost or entity.

Pat, as I mentioned, took exception to me because he believed that. That I had become infested by some, by the devil and was demonically possessed. This was in total agreement with what the AID and Lorraine Warren considered.

So there were a number of incidents where he basically attacked me.

On one occasion,

for example, this was in the kitchen because we had. Before going to bed, we used to have sandwiches and some cocoa or some French coffee or whatever.

So we had to took it turns on the rotor to do some of the clearing up.

So it was my turn with my rest of my dormitory mates to do that.

And Pat was on duty in the kitchen supervising. I'd anticipated that, you know, he might try something and he did.

He got hold of me, grabbed me, threw me against a wall and he was going to basically attack me.

Then he found he couldn't.

He couldn't because after throwing me to the floor, he found that he couldn't move. Something had pinned him against the wall.

A dark shadow form, figure had pinned him against the wall.

He knew who that was and so did I. I crawled back away from him,

allowing Susan to come between us,

much as had happened in the previous incident.

Pat wouldn't accept the situation and therefore lashed out, only to find that he was moved, thrown, pushed, pinned against the tiled wall of the kitchen.

I moved back, further back,

and Susan moved back a little bit further.

And then Pat again had another attempt to break free of his invisible bonds.

And Come at me again.

By this time I'd got to my feet and there were various plate racks and plates from the plate racks started to be spun in his direction, crashing into him.

There were a series of plates,

bowls, etc. From these racks that crashed onto the floor. And the plates or bowls from these stacks were spun,

crashing into Pat.

He tried to fend them off, but was unsuccessful. There were a total of 49 of them. Much was made of this seven, lots of 749.

But I'm not so sure that that has a particular significance.

What was significant was that these sort of the attack of the plates, as it were, failed to hold him or stop him.

But what did was that it was a large aluminium saucepan that was used to brew up the milk for the cocoa and the French coffee. I mean, it was vast.

It really was.

Even when it was nearly empty,

it was too heavy for a couple of us boys usually,

and often staff had to help us with this.

It was also served as a bit of reserve for the staff who stayed on during the night.

So, you know, the contents of it were poured into a smaller saucepan so that that would be available for them to have later.

But this big saucepan, you know, was literally lifted off the stove,

moved across the kitchen in midair and thumped into Pat's chest, knocking him over and the sort of hot content spilling over him.

It was at that point that I got up and I had already got to my feet, but I. I then left the room thinking, I don't want to be around anymore because this is really angered Pat.

I don't know what he's going to do,

but I found that my exit from the kitchen was blocked because there were other people wanted to come in but were unable to.

So I just stood there.

And at this point, Pat accepted his fate and didn't do anything. He was actually completely stunned. I found out later and winded.

So I thought my presence was going to make a bad situation worse.

But actually he reached out his hand to me and sort of said,

enough, enough, no more, enough.

And I just nodded and I looked over in Susan's direction and I just said,

it's okay, it's over.

She moved back and her presence faded.

That was one of the.

Some of the incidents. There was a number of incidents in the dormitory where Pat had also decided to have a go at me. And much the same sort of thing happened.

Susan defended me.

Susan's presence was very prominent when I was in the reception class.

She would take up residence largely as a dark Shadow form figure in the classroom itself.

The poor old teacher couldn't cope with this. He had a breakdown. His mental health was not particularly good, which is why he was teaching in that particular school. He had been a high flying teacher in an independent school, but had had a breakdown.

But this presence was too much for him.

Now there was a lot of bullying that went on, particularly in reception class,

and when this occurred,

then Susan would come in and intercede.

So I was then found myself, to a certain extent, oddly bullied for having this particular guardian angel, as it were, a dark guardian angel.

There were a number of attempts to try to sort things out,

to try and understand what was going on. And the burster of the school obtained from a local school a Leyden jar, which is a means of figuring out whether something is electrically charged.

And one night in the dormitory, it was a question of my having to call Susan and,

you know, seeing if there was an electrical charge associated with a shadow form figure or apparition. Having thrust this thing into her apparition,

it was thrown across the room and so was I, to a certain extent. This was witnessed by one of my dorm mates. But he couldn't figure out whether or not my action in plunging the Leyden jar into the apparition was part of me in that sense, almost throwing it back that had been pushed back out of my hand,

or whether the apparition, Susan had actually thrown it herself. I was in no doubt that it had been taken from my hand and thrown.

But he couldn't see. And one of the reasons why he couldn't see was although the apparition was solid and I had thrust the Leyden jar into lacked substance,

and therefore the Leyden jar disappeared from his view for a fraction of a second, which was why he couldn't figure out what had gone on.

That wasn't particularly spectacular, but it is illustrative.

There was another occasion where somebody had a go at me. This is again about discipline. One of the things that you had to do if you fell foul of some of the rules was each night we had to clean our shoes.

And one of the punishments was you had to clean the shoes for entire school,

all 40 or so boys.

So I was hard at work doing that.

And one of the difficulties with being on these punishments is it was almost like being in the army.

You don't necessarily get a clear run at the task that the punishment task. So other people will have a go at you, some of the other boys will have a go, some of the other staff will have a go.

And so on. So this makes it worse. And you can pick up punishment after punishment after punishment as a result of not actually doing your punishment tasks rather cruel and hard, but that's the way it was.

So after some people, including a member of staff, had had a go at me and I was subject to bullying,

the shoe racks, they were actually several large wine racks were propelled from one side of the.

This sort of corridor to another.

And again, these things were big and they were heavy and it took some time for everyone to sort this out.

And of course, 40 odd pairs of shoes to put back, put back in the racks and so on. And of course, I had to clean them to make sure that I'd found my task.

That was another thing.

There was another occasion when,

and this was Dr.

George Pierce,

he ran riot in my dormitory, running around,

moving objects, overturning the bed on which my friend at that time, my particular friend, I'll mention him again in a moment,

was lying, overturning it,

pulling the curtains from the windows and throwing pillows around,

and also rugs, because we each had a little bed space with a vanity unit which was integrated into a wardrobe.

It was a towel rail and a rug beside our beds as our little personal space on that occasion. You see,

there were the then school psychiatrists, there were two school psychiatrists during my time at the school who were involved in this.

The first one considered me to be a mental weakling and not capable mentally of exerting the full force I could with my muscles.

So I was tested in trying to overturn the bed on my friend's bed.

I was too weak at the time to be able to do that because I was too small. I wasn't strong enough, you know, I was sworn at and shattered out and whipped with towels and whatever to, you know, make me carry out this feat on the basis that I wasn't trying hard enough.

And they soon found out that, try as I might, I wasn't strong enough.

So again,

it wasn't a question of a force acting through me as an agent particularly. This was an independent entity.

Now,

the thing about this is, again,

how could it be that something, a poltergeist or whatever could exert more force than the agent could muster?

Another question which I've been puzzling over for a great many years.

Then there was the incident that occurred in,

again, the corridor, which is again,

Pat having a go at anywhere and with another member of staff, who I'm not going to name.

He was being bullied by Pat, which I don't want to go into the reasons behind that.

They attacked me and Susan got in between us,

saved me,

and she held them off.

And then I thought about getting hold of summoning their teacher's wife because she was the only one who could stop these two.

And I did,

through Susan,

who managed to summon this lady herself,

my class teacher, the head teacher's wife thought her son was in danger and that he was in danger in the shower room.

I had just come from the shower room before I was set upon,

so that was accurate.

And she came and she came to find that one of those two members of SoftPat had been held off by Susan. The other was at some distance from me while I lay on the floor,

protected by Susan.

So again she saw what the situation was and she had a better understanding of it in the sense of she herself had been a subject of a lot of poltergeist activity when she and her husband were courting.

So again, she was able to understand a little bit more about what was happening.

And also she was very much the power behind her husband's throne in terms of his being the head teacher. But the real power within that relationship lay with her, not him.

Now, then, there were some incidents which involved,

say, sleepwalking,

and that was in relation to Sibyl. Now, within a dream,

this is a telepathic, veritical dream.

This is in Sybil's flat.

She arranges to meet with a lady from the local library club who she knows.

This ends up being Linda,

but she doesn't know who Linda is at the time.

Linda being the boyfriend of Leonard, her husband.

So they were luring her into a meeting.

They followed her home from where she worked. She worked as a florist.

So Sybil goes home.

She's expecting a meeting with a lady from the library.

When she opens the door, it isn't Linda as she anticipates. It's Leonard,

her ex husband.

He's got a silicon on his face and he's hiding something behind his back.

She thinks it's flowers, which is what he think. He wants her to think. It isn't.

It's around us part.

And he attacks her with it and kills her.

The end comes when she's slumped against a chair in her living room and he breaks her pelvis. It is a sexual attack.

He is absolutely furious that she is seeing another man by no Marty.

So it's again the same old, same old business,

that he can have a relationship with another woman, but she dared not have another relationship with another man.

Make of that what you will but what I saw and still see in these dreams is that that brutal attack is of a sexual nature,

because he is hitting her with his baseball bat, saying, for him and not for me,

hitting her *******,

her hips and her groin.

I think he probably breaks her pelvis with one of those blows.

She was slumped against a chair.

And then he kills her finally with a couple of blows to the head.

In the dream,

he goes and summons Linda to help him clear up the mess. Their original plan being that they would put her into the bath, strip her and put her into the bath, and make it look as if she'd fallen in the bath,

but there was too much damage to her body.

And when they do this,

there's too much blood.

It looks terribly suspicious.

So they change their plan.

They bury her in a shower at the shallow grave. But that's a bit moving away now from the actual incident.

The point being that in the dream and as an actual experience,

after a short period of time, Cypril's spirit lifts up from her shattered body and she goes into the kitchen and picks a knife and she writes on the side of the wall by the door.

Sibyl lives.

Now.

I would sleepwalk,

get up from my bed and try and go to the classrooms downstairs, which were all locked up at night. Of course, they were locked up in the afternoons when they weren't required.

So I obviously knew that they would not be open.

But somehow I desperately needed to write on that wall, just as Sibyl had done.

Sibyl Lives.

Because in that sense, I was Sibyl and she was me.

So I had that mission. I had to write that.

I had to know that I was still alive.

I was still alive because I could still function. I could still think, I could still feel,

although the pain of my injuries was fading. And there was a terrible emotional and psychological pain from that. The battering, the psychological side of the physical battering which ended my life.

But I did not know it, I did not accept it,

and therefore I had to write simple lips. So I would go into the classroom and try and write that after a period of time, the staff left the doors open to see what would happen.

And I did. I wrote Civil Lives, Civil lives, Sybil Lives, Simple Lives. All over the blackboard.

The experiment having been conducted, they thought, well, that's it.

Unfortunately, that wasn't it for either them or me.

And there was one occasion when, despite the school being locked up,

I managed to climb out and climb out of around over a covered way, could access into a small courtyard within the School up and over a covered way,

over the playing field,

scaling a chain link fence and going downstairs onto the beach,

concrete stairs,

where I found myself a stick and started writing in the sand of the cliff. Sybil lives.

I did not know what I was doing,

although I was able to accomplish these feats.

And I kind of half came to when I heard someone shouting at me. But I knew I had to complete my task.

And then somebody grabbed hold of me. It was one of the neighbors who had seen me doing this.

And he got the head teacher and staff of the school and I just flopped over backwards. I had no idea what I was doing, where I was.

The. There were other instances like this, but that was probably the most telling of them.

Now,

when the Warrens became involved,

what they were looking for is they were looking for evidence of demonic possession, that I was possessed by a devil.

And more than that,

there were supposedly seven devils involved.

Seven devils,

each of whom had 40, 49 servitors. I don't know why they came up with these numbers, but anyway, that's what they thought, that's what they believed.

And the reason that they were there is that they were hiding behind these ghosts, these poltergeists that weren't substantial, they were not real.

They were just the fronts for the demons and some of the devils and behind them, the demons.

So what they were looking for was evidence of me speaking in tongues,

superhuman strength,

and of course, knowing things that I could not possibly know except through some sort of compact with the devil or the demons.

And also, of course,

the other sort of, kind of key thing with this,

that I had an aversion to crosses and holy objects and so on, which I didn't, in fact,

but they thought I did.

So as the Warrens applied pressure to me, so did the school to find out one way or the other which way was the case going to go.

Now, there had been a member of staff, which I'll just refer to as Mr. A for what will become obvious reasons.

Mr. A was in charge of the night staff.

And having asked Susan,

under duress,

was there something that I. That she could show me, she could tell me that I could not know through any other way or root or reason,

something that she knew that I did not, that no one else knew.

I felt rather stupid doing it.

But nevertheless I did it because under duress.

And what I was told was Mr. A is not a man of God.

I didn't understand this at first. There were images that came into my mind, associated with him, that I. That were too fast There were too many of them and I couldn't understand them.

So the situation built up because every time Mr. A was on duty and I was anywhere near him or he was anywhere near me, Susan's presence would intensify and she would come between us and it would be the same thing.

You are not a man of God. You are not a man of God. Yet he wore a cross and he was a Christian.

So this was rather perplexing.

Now, on one occasion, the last occasion,

Susan said this with undue, with more force than she'd ever, ever done before.

And she started pushing him,

physically pushing him back,

not actually touching him, but exerting a force against his body.

And he was determined to fight back, and he did.

And he was sort of using his cross to say that and to pray that she was a bad and evil spirit and she had come from hell and that she was, you know, spawn of the devil and so on.

And she just repeated, you are not a man of God. You are not a man of God.

And she won.

She pushed him back and back and back,

back along the corridor and then back to the stairs, the middle main stairs,

by which time there was quite a number of boys and some members of staff witnessing this.

The four lights were turned on because at night there were only the red lights after lights out, emergency lights. So the four lights were turned on.

Various people were summoned.

And she pushed Mr. A downstairs.

He fell in slow motion down the stairs,

landing up on the landing, first landing, then the second at the bottom.

At first we. We didn't know what had happened because there had been a blinding flash of light when he had reached the bottom of the stairs.

And he still held out the cross in his hand, except there was no cross there,

just a blackened hand,

like as if it had been held in a candle flame or something.

No cross.

The chain around his neck was still there, but there was no cr.

So what had happened? Where had the cross gone in the meantime?

These images had poured into my mind and the minds of other people around some of our boys and a couple of members of staff.

So there was a bit of an inquiry about this. The bursa was present and tried to take some photographs, and I say tried because some of them turned out and they were fine,

but the ones of the critical incident weren't. They were blurred.

You could see the actual staircase, you could see the hallway,

but the rest of it was just fogged.

So we had no evidence other than the testimonies of those who were there.

I was one of the key witnesses Because I was the only one who had the experience of trying to really understand the images that had come into my mind.

And from that I was assisted to write a statement which said that Mr. A had worked at a care home and it'd been in Edinburgh somewhere.

Because it was known that Mr. A had come from a care environment and it was slightly peculiar in one sense. Why he would then,

after working with elderly people in a care home,

as a member of care staff there, would suddenly want to change and work with boys.

Well,

the school often picked up people who were second chances.

They had teacher believing that such people would be more grateful for a second opportunity to basically put their careers back on track and therefore they would be more compliant.

And also the fact that there might be something in their background could be used against them.

It was that kind of environment.

So he worked for this care home.

And what I saw was that he was in charge of some of the residents,

particularly the female ones, when they passed away,

making them ready for the undertaker to come and take them to the chapel of rest.

Except it didn't stop at just petty pilfering. He interfered with them,

hence my caution in mentioning his name.

This formed part of the statement.

Then the school went back to his personnel file and found that, yes,

he had worked in such a place and that's where his principal reference, one of his references had come from.

They contacted the care home and found, oh, yes,

there was some petty pilfering and this chap was suspected, but nothing was ever proved.

And so they thought they'd get rid of him by giving him a good reference to get another job somewhere else, anywhere else but in the care sector.

But they had their suspicions that he was interfering,

because that's what the relatives had said,

that's what doctors had said.

Somebody had been doing that, but they didn't know who.

Well, they knew who. Now,

Mr. A did not want to resign and therefore the school reorganized and deleted his post.

He was very shaken up by the incident that had occurred and didn't come back to school for about two weeks.

When he did,

I saw him and he had a bit of a meltdown on seeing me because he felt that I was the demon incarnate that had caused the problem. And I said, no, it wasn't me at all.

But he had a cross,

but it was a silver one, not the gold one he had.

Where did that come from?

Because the original had disappeared from his hand.

What had happened to it?

Now, I got in trouble with Pat because Pat said that that was the original. I Knew it wasn't,

but.

And that came out that Pat had lent him his cross because he thought he needed the protection against these dark and dangerous powers far more than he did.

But where was Mr. A's cross?

I knew because Susan knew.

I told the school and they didn't believe me.

And I said,

right,

well,

why don't you just find out?

In the hall of the main school there were two fish tanks.

And in one of them there was one of those little plastic castles.

The cross had been placed in that castle.

And it was clearly impossible that could have occurred through trying to insert the cross in the castle. Because it just wouldn't have fitted. It was impossible to get it out there.

Out of there. The only way of doing that was to break the castle,

which they did. And they bought another castle for the fish tank, of course. But it was a tremendous thing.

How on earth could you possibly duplicate that?

The cross being blackened slightly as if it had been held in a candle flame or something like that.

But that was one of these incidents.

Now,

there was something more to it than that because there was a cold spot at the bottom of the stairs on the landing.

Now, that cold spot was thought to be where a builder had a heart attack and died when he was building the school. The staircase. A carpenter.

Now, that had not actually occurred in that particular school at all.

But it had occurred in a different building which constituted the school.

Therefore,

this particular ghost, whatever cold spot had moved with the people who constituted the school when the school changed location.

The interesting point about that is not only what I've just mentioned,

but also the fact that the cold spot moved after that incident. It was more in the center of the stair of the landing, but then moved more into the corner after this incident.

Strange.

I don't know why that happened, but it did.

These are just some of the incidents that occurred. There was another one which was an initiative through Pat to try and measure the electrical resistance of Susan. Susan. Susan's apparition.

This caused a lot of trouble because it relied on me calling her and trying to put an electrode in one of her hands and another one in the other.

The electrodes going to a meter.

There was a brilliant flash of light and I was thrown backwards.

And there was.

There was a buffing machine that was left in the corridor that went crazy.

All the alarms went off and the school was evacuated as the result of a power cut and so on.

Again, that shows you the power involved that can be involved in some of these incidents.

In the Enfield case,

there was sort of a Fire grate,

more than the grate, the fireplace was weighing about for £400, was moved across the room, taken up the walk, moved across the room.

There's this similar sort of power involved with the snooker table incident. There was also other incidents where the large blackboard and in the common room, which we use for the snooker things,

was taken off the wall and various things were written on it and so on. It was quite common that if anybody interfered with some of these poltergeists when they were causing trouble, then they would be thrown across the room or pushed or whatever.

So it was a battle that could not be won through physical means. There had to be another way of dealing with it.

But before we could get there,

we

were sort of drugged up. I was drugged up and so were some of the other boys in my dormitory. Huge doses of benzodiazepines that are meant to stop you dreaming. Well, they didn't because of the wrong kinds of dreams.

And also there was sleep treatment as well, so. So the same thing that shell shock victims who are subject to, which was insulin. So there was an occasion when I was subject to this and the full dose of the syringe was never delivered into my arm because I fought.

And again, Susan was protecting me and I thought that I needed to get help and this was in the form of the bursa. Now, the bursa was in his flat in school and he thought that his dog was in trouble and he followed his dog because his dog told him there was something wrong and wanted him to follow the dog.

The dog led him to me and he put a stop to what was going on.

So I never received the full dose of that injection. Had I have done, I might very well have ended up being brain damaged, but as it turned out, I didn't.

So, again,

a serious incident.

One of my challenges was,

as the school put it, not to rely on the help of my guardian angel to fight my own battles,

which meant having to stand up and take my punishment like a man, or rather a boy. But we were expected to be men rather than boys because that was the kind of institution it was.

So,

with a number of different poltergeists running around,

the school's life was significantly affected.

On one occasion in my classroom,

my class teacher kind of mocked the situation, only to find out that all the books were taken from exercise books were taken from our desks and whirled around along with books and so on and various other items.

In a storm, sort of like a snowstorm,

centered around me,

which lasted only a short period of Time, but brought complete chaos to the entire room.

And the talk of it went, of course,

around the school and so on.

So eventually the school gave up on trying to uproot the problem or me and started to domesticate it, which meant working with me, which was a very different situation.

So, Kieran, were any seances held at the school then in connection with this to try and find out what was going on and if you were psychic because you were the apparent focus of this paranormal activity?

Yes, they were. And this was at the instigation of the Warrens. The headteacher and his wife actually had a Ouija board and had experimented with it earlier because the school was known to be haunted.

And there was that other boy who was a psychic and he had experienced various things in different places in the school which related to the ghosts of the school.

But they didn't want to engage in what they considered to be unscientific methods because they're in contact with a lot of psychical research organizations.

So the Warrens said,

along with Pat, that they were going to basically force me into a situation where I was going to have to have a seance with them and a Ouija board taking me out of the school if necessary in order to do so.

Well, the school's management decided they weren't going to have that,

but they were going to concede to the demand to have a seance.

The Warrens were not going to be present. That was part of the deal.

The headteacher,

his wife, my class teacher,

the bursa and the then school psychiatrist were present in my dormitory, which was cleared for the purpose of holding the seance.

My class teacher sat opposite me over the Ouija board and she was toying with something in her pocket.

I knew it had particular significance to her,

but I didn't quite know what it was.

I did later find out in a roundabout way which confirmed what I'm about to tell you.

I was encouraged to use the Ouija board,

but in order to do so, I needed to summon Susan, which I did.

Her presence became more solid from the shadow form figure it was,

and took on the form of full apparition.

Full,

solid and as of a living person.

Now, everyone else in the room had seen this before,

with the possible exception of the school psychiatrist, and he was absolutely terrified.

He had borrowed a large cross from a local church, which he did get in trouble, but that nevertheless, he had this. And he was standing by the window, cowering behind it.

Despite my differences of opinion with him, I felt rather sorry for him.

So I called Susan.

When those concerned were satisfied that she was there,

I was going to ask her for we could use the Ouija board.

And she stood there,

looked for the side of the table, looking at myself and my class teacher with arms folded.

No,

I do not need to use that thing to communicate with him.

And as she said that,

the Ouija board lifts up,

folds,

is hurled against the wall,

ricochets right the way across the room and through the window,

emerging on the other side of the window, because we're upstairs, there's this down. It down,

crashed downstairs,

only to be found later. The planchette ricocheted off the ceiling and into the corner.

I knew in that instant what my class teacher had in her pocket, or what she thought she had in her pocket.

And I'll come back to that,

because the instant question I asked, which I couldn't stop myself asking,

you know, through my mind, was, why did so Susan? Why did you do that?

But she wasn't in any mood for communicating because she turned on Dr. P and said,

no,

you will not use the power of God against me.

And although she was on the other side of the room,

she made a gesture to rip this thing,

the cross from his hand,

which he did,

and she hurled it against the door where it crashed down. And poor old Dr. P ended up cowering in the corner,

sort of afraid.

My class teacher then started. She banged her hands on the table and said, no, no, no, you will stop this. You will stop this. Now,

I've never seen her do that.

Her rows with her husband were very well known. But the force with which she said that was something very remarkable.

This, in a sense, partly brought the incident to a close.

But what Susan did was she turned back to her and said,

you know the answer.

The answer is in your jacket,

your pocket,

the case.

And suddenly I saw in my mind exactly what was there.

This little jewel box.

It contained two things originally.

A little biblical inscription and a brooch. My class teacher did not take that jewel case,

little jewel case out of her pocket at the time, but later she did,

and she found that it contained only the biblical inscription, which was written on a piece of parchment type paper.

And there was a fingerprint on it. There was a couple of finger and a thumbprint on it in a sort of gray, mouldy kind of dust, as there was on the box itself.

And the inscription was. I can't remember it exactly, but it was basically about,

you know, let things be.

Just let, you know, let it be, let it rest.

Don't try and, you know,

don't try and change the inevitable.

Now,

when my class teacher had put that in her pocket,

she knew that both the inscription and the brooch were there.

But where was the brooch?

It was found somewhere.

She later found it in somewhere she did not expect it to be.

But the point is that that sort of ended the seance.

Because I then sort of said,

what have you done? Meaning to both of them,

my class teacher, and to Susan.

And the response to that was,

if you don't want me, I will go. And I said,

I don't understand.

I don't understand.

You will,

you will. In time, you will, you will know was Susan's response.

Her presence dissipated.

And again, there was a handprint around the cross.

The cross had been thrown against the door so violently that there was a dent in the woodwork and it had dented the heavy sort of gold cross.

And out of this came the realization that Ouija boards were not necessary.

Direct communication was, but that needed to be supervised and carried out in a controlled way.

So that was in essence what happened with the seance.

There was another occasion when I was fostered, which was some years later,

which occurred when again,

there was a lot of paranormal activity in the family home of the people I was sort of being fostered by.

And to make a point as it were,

that brooch, that box, jewelry box was again imported. Now this was no small distance,

distance of many miles.

I didn't realize it at first, but neither did my foster family,

although they soon found out about it. And again, there was a handprint on the box.

I took the jewelry box back to the school and my class teacher and said,

have you missing this?

No.

My ex class teacher went back and had a look and said, how the on earth did you get that?

And I explained.

And she said, oh my God. Yes, I had a dream about that the other night.

Yes.

Yes. I dreamt that someone came into my room. I dreamt that this particular person,

Susan,

had taken something from me.

She was in my room and she took something from me. Something very precious, very valuable,

something very personal.

But I hadn't looked to see if my jewelry box with her brooch in there had gone. I should have done.

The reason I didn't is because I got a terrible feeling every time I thought about it.

But looking back,

I should have checked because that was the thing that was disappeared. That would have disappeared.

So thank you, Kieran, for bringing this back to me.

So again, that's a rather spectacular incident which just shows the linkage that there can be between ghosts Poltergeists and the living and the living minds of the living. And I think really that's in a sense the key to it.

Because if you look at this in a different way, if I was the poltergeist agent,

then this lady, my class teacher, she would have been in her 50s at that time.

She had about her a great deal of psychical energy and therefore it would. In when she was younger, I could well believe that she was the focus of poltercast activity.

But there we are.

That was the story of the one and only official seance that was conducted. All the rest of the communication was in controlled environments, but not as a seance as such.

It was me observe. I was being observed while I communicated.

And the presences that I was communicating with were either apparitions or known shadow form figures in the sense that they were there and that they were observed to be there by other people.

And it was a sort of a question and answer session with somebody taking notes,

and that's how it was done.

But that was the one and only formal seance.

And you've also mentioned that the school was left haunted.

Do you want to just give us an indication of how many ghosts that were there in residence and, you know, as far as you know, who they were and why they were there?

Yes, I will,

thanks.

There was the ghost or spirit of a girl who committed suicide and returned to the school where she had been happy,

particularly with a very special friend of hers, which I think she came back. And she haunted the upstairs corridors,

which I think she. I've mentioned her already.

There was the ghost of a Canadian airman who also committed suicide when his girlfriend dumped him.

And this related to when the school was actually in a different building.

So again, you've got this issue of the transference of sort of ghost entities from one building or environment to another,

presumably through the linkage of the people involved.

But it's not a simple business and it would take time to go into. But nevertheless,

it was when the school was in a different building in Cambridge that this happened, because it was thought that the Canadian Air Force had had some sort of presence within the school during wartime.

But that wasn't actually the case.

So it was a bit of a conundrum as to why and how that happened.

This Canadian airman used to appear in the corridor and come into one of the dormitory where I was at the time. I, you know, slept in a number of dormitories different times.

And he would take a letter out of his tunic pocket, he would read it he would start to read, walk across, almost as if he didn't want to, as some sort of power, almost kind of compelling him to walk across the room.

He would then open the window and he would then sort of sit on the edge of the window, still reading the letter,

and he would put it back into his tunic pocket,

sigh,

fold his arms across his chest,

wait,

and then he would say a short prayer and then he would drop out of the window.

Interestingly, there was a cold spot outside where his body would have fallen.

But if this related to another building, which it did,

then how is that possible?

That was a bit of a mystery.

There was, of course, the ghost of spirit of one of the two old ladies that ran the girls Independence School, the other surviving.

Now, again,

one of the interesting things about this is that the surviving sister could also be seen about the school.

Whether she had an independent existence as a phantasm of the living, or whether it was a question of an extension of the Persona of the deceased sister was a very open question.

One of the.

The sister who was deceased used to come out to meet a delivery van,

the driver of which provided provisions to the school, usually on a Wednesday morning.

The surviving sister didn't believe the place was as haunted as it was, and she felt terribly guilty and responsible. I mean, you just imagine it, your sister, your sibling is responsible for this.

So what are you going to do about it? How are you going to stop this? Is it really true? Could it really happen?

So in the end,

she was prevailed upon to come and see for herself, which she did,

poor lady,

when she saw herself as a phantasm of the living along with her deceased sister,

it was too much for her and she fainted.

She had to be revived. But after that she knew the reality of the situation, although we didn't know what to do about it then. At least she knew what we were all trying to grapple with.

So she was there. And also possibly by extension,

were some of the old girls and some of the members of staff.

And part of what I was tested on was information relating to them.

There was also a very definite haunting phenomena around the rooms at the back of the school, near the rear staircase,

which related to a fire that occurred when the school was in another building during wartime,

the exact sequence of events only being known to those two sisters and myself.

And therefore I was tested about exactly what those events were.

And what I said was found to be true and accurate.

So I had seen what actually had happened as a sort of a stone tape recording. But I wasn't able to change any of it because that's what it was.

But I wasn't the only one that witnessed aspects of it because a number of other boys and some of the staff had seen a figure emerging from one of the rooms on the ground floor, the back of the school and hurry up the staircase and try to get from the war a triangular fire extinguisher.

But there were no such fire extinguishers of that type in the school at the time.

And then she hurried up the stairs and disappeared into what was known as the ablution room. Now I had already figured out that that room wasn't had been a smaller washroom,

but there had also been an office there. And I was quite correct about that.

So the exact sequence of events and the geography of the school which I related and was tested upon was true and accurate.

So all of these things,

some of the old girls, that spirit,

one girl in particular,

the staff and so on,

all of these things were part of the sort of psychical history and infrastructure of the school and formed a sort of a palimpsest of environmental stone tape recordings that followed people who ran the old independent school and therefore became part of the psychical record of the new boys boarding school.

So it was a very rich sort of territory in order to be able to explore from my point of view, get away from the daily and rather crushing life of the school on the one hand and provided an ample opportunity to test me and my psychic abilities.

And you mentioned earlier that you and a number of the other boys as well as some of the members of staff experienced dreams associated with some of the entities that followed you from your haunted holiday home to your school.

Can you just briefly describe what these were like and provide an example or two?

Yes,

indeed, and thanks for the opportunity to allow me to do this.

An early telepathic veridical dream was when I was first at school in dormitory 119.

This was known as the Bully Girl dream and it related to the balcony ward of the Tate Convalescent Home in Broadstairs which was closed in 1954.

Later research established the dream was experienced by all the boys in my dormitory and also dormitories further afield and members of staff within their own separate sleeping quarters.

You know, within the school.

It starts off that there are a number of beds in this sort of semi official sort of ward.

It is extremely cold, the window is open,

it's snowing outside and the snow blows into the room.

I,

the main sort of character of the dream, or she is situated In a bed, freezing cold and dying to go to the toilet.

But there is a girl across the other side of the room who doesn't want this and would bully me, she, her,

if she were to get up out of bed. The object of the exercise being to go past this girl's bed and walk down the corridor and there there would be a member of night staff at a desk and beyond her there would be the toilet and relief.

So it is this dilemma what to do.

But the impact of that dream was that the boys in my dormitory and further afield considered that I was the bully, the bully girl,

because I was responsible for the way they thought and felt about this and that I had somehow set this bully girl on them.

So the staff of the school thought I was bullying those boys, which I wasn't,

because I was being bullied, actually by the boy who was in charge of that dormitory.

But everybody remembered the dream.

And one of the odd things about this is that I think I mentioned that there were two kinds of boys at that school.

The crazy mixed up kids, of which I was one, and the tough nuts.

So these really tough boys having to admit to staff and each other that they considered that they were being mentally bullied by a girl was something quite unusual.

So I was subject to a lot of questioning by the staff. Very first fierce questioning about my sister.

My sister is younger than me and obviously, you know, back then she was smaller than me,

so she was obviously not capable of bullying these boys.

Now, the interesting point about this is that I found that dream.

The balcony ward of the Tate home did exist.

Susan was there.

She actually was there.

And I found records of the Tate HO and various dreams established that.

I can't find absolute documentary proof of this,

but everything fits.

I've even been to the London archives and seen the files that they have on that place,

the location of the dream.

And there is a photograph of this balcony ward in a book by Tony Eden about the convalescent homes of Broadstairs. The photograph is of the balcony ward and that is the setting for the dream.

So how could any of us, including me, know any of this at all?

Because most of us were semi literate or illiterate and that's one of the reasons why we, and I was in school.

How could we possibly know of such a thing?

So the link was through Susan, through her experiences and through her re experiencing of her trauma that she was radiating out to me and to the other boys,

a sort of telling Chudley, as it were,

of her trauma, of her experiences as she relived it.

So that was one example,

the other example, and there were many, many dreams.

I lost track of how to write, of writing them, trying to write them down and describe them. And they're all in incredible detail.

Another one is the shed fire. This is the four characters who gather outside a shed. It's probably at the back of Vere Road in Broadstairs.

There's a small passage which gave access to site of allotments.

There was a shed there one time which had a window newly cut in it. This was to be the office for Leonard because he was going to receive enough money from the family to set himself up in pilgrimage business as sort of an independent private contractor, building contractor,

as a window had been newly cut.

So the four of them,

Chudley, Leonard, Linda, Vera, gather outside.

It is at this point that Chudley again looks at his lighter in the inscription of the lighter and his thought is one of the women in my life.

Winifred, his wife, who had died recently,

had obviously passed away and now he was about to destroy the only other woman he had ever loved in his life.

Destroy? Why destroy?

Because he believed that he and Leonard had already killed Susan in Leonard's van through the use of ether and chloroform.

But that had not actually killed Susan. They had taken her body and they had dug out a space underneath the floor of the shed and put on top of this space plywood board,

a rug, and on top of that an old part at the base of an anvil to make sure she would not escape because they were scared that she might not have died.

So each one of those four takes their turn.

Paraffin is poured from a large container into a jug.

The padlock on the shed is opened, the paraffin is spread around and a spill is lit.

That was Chudley's job. But he can't light the spill because his lighter won't work.

Leonard does it and he tosses the spill into the shed.

Now, below the space,

below the anvil and the plywood board is Susan bound and gagged and she dies in the fire.

They hear her banging and her cries despite her being gagged,

but they walk away and leave her to her fate.

It is this dream which was the one that I experienced 10 times and that was the one that led me into the session incident of automatic writing.

Now,

the headteacher's wife believed that she knew the answer to this,

which was to take the example of the dream people in Africa,

that you live through your dreams and you must not allow a dream to Dominate you. Otherwise it will forever never leave you alone.

It will always be with you. It will dominate your waking state, it will dominate your sleeping state. And you will make your life a misery. And it will turn you into a wreck.

That's why you have to face your fears and deal with your dream.

So under this pressure,

because she was a very influential character in the school and she was able to sort of swing around the psychologists and psychiatrists and so on,

I then had to turn this horrible ending into.

Into a good one.

I failed to do so because I couldn't change the basic course of the dream. Not in any significant sense. But the other boys could experience part of what I was trying to do.

For example, the first job is Linda's. She goes and unlocks the padlock.

Now, what if the key doesn't fit? What if the lock doesn't unlock?

That's one of my thoughts. Try to make it so that it won't.

So try and change the course of the dream. The lock's rusted up.

It doesn't work. No, I can't get that to stick. It doesn't work.

Right. The next thing is the pouring of the paraffin from the large container into a jug.

What if they drop the can?

What if the paraffin spills and so on? Yeah. Each time I try and engineer something different which would lead to the different course of the dream,

turning the bad ant come into one that is not as bad.

But I can never do it. It's too strong.

Because I'm trying to, in that sense, trying to change the history, the reality that was experienced at the time. So I found that I can't do it. But I realized that I was able to change the course of other dreams where I was more free to do so.

And this, to a certain extent, was witnessed by some of the other boys who were also experiencing the same thing. But interestingly enough,

they were experiencing not only the dream in its raw state, they were also experiencing the dream as I intended to modify it.

So they saw the modifications as well.

So there was a difference.

Now,

there was something else as well. This was something that started off on a Thursday afternoon before we were due to go home on the Friday morning for a half, for one of the holidays.

Now, this started off with a sequence walking along a road, a country road,

around a bend in the road.

There's a sort of a gap in the long. The tall hedge that surrounds the road on one side.

And there's a little girl there.

And she beckons you to come down these flight of stairs, which is flagstone stairs.

So you do,

because you can't stop.

You don't know what it's about, but you compelled to follow her, which you do. So you go down these stairs and this leads you down into a sort of like a pocket type of a valley in which there is a house,

sort of one of those sort of Georgian type,

well,

for Elizabethan type Georgian houses,

reproduction type thing. So it's got white walls and large dark oak,

black wood beams and so on,

and lovely lead windows and so on.

But there's also something else there.

There's a party going on.

There are people there.

There are two people in the house.

Now,

in that house there are two. Those two people are Susan and Chudley.

Now, he stayed with her in that house while. For a period of a couple of weeks,

while he instructed her in how to be his dental nurse and secretary. And those are very happy times for Susan. But there was something else about this place.

It was something that was owned. It was a house that was owned by Chudley's associate,

who was also a dentist.

And that house was struck by lightning, despite its position. And I found it in records,

I was able to confirm that what people saw in their dreams was the death of this little girl who died tragically in the sort of pond at that house.

And she did die.

I saw it, it was in a newspaper report.

And the house was struck by lightning twice, despite being down in a valley.

And it was owned by that person,

Chudley's associate, a dentist who he worked with.

I mean, he then went on to own our houses and so on and so forth. Now,

an interesting thing about this is not only was that dream broadcast, it was associated with a particular piece of music which was Tiptoe through the Tulips,

which was one of the very famous songs from the film, the Gold Tickers of Broadway.

So we all started to experience part of this dream and that music on the Thursday afternoon, which went right round Thursday evening into the Friday morning and so on. And I and some of the boys continued to hear it and see some of these visuals when we went home.

This caused problems with my family. But nevertheless, my point about this is that it was being broadcast.

Everyone was seeing and hearing pretty much the same thing,

pretty much in the same way.

So how could that be?

So it was thought that I was in one sense the focus, or that I was sort of basically rebroadcasting what had been broadcast to me. But it was clear from these experiences and others that actually I might have been doing that.

But the main original source of this broadcast was not me, it was somebody else,

probably Susan.

So there were many of these sorts of dreams, but these sort of three are really three key ones which are sort of more or less given as examples.

So you mentioned Kieran earlier and in our previous conversation that the school was in contact with a number of psychical research organizations and that they learned from these organizations how to test your psychic ability to find out if you were indeed the focus of the paranormal activity that was disrupting the life and work of the school.

Do you want to just describe how they went about this with a couple of examples.

First of all, the school was in contact with the Society for Psychical Research and the secretary of the society at the time had quite a few questions about what was going on.

And so, you know, there were interviews which took place with me in. And the secretary on the phone or whatever, or the secretary gave them questions to ask me and I was interviewed.

I don't think she fully understood the enormity of the situation because her view on this is she wanted to receive full succinct and accurate reports. A two line report of an apparition, for example.

And there was a bit of a.

Bit of a difference of opinion about this because of course with several different sort of ghosts of poltergeists causing mayhem within the school and Susan in particular taking up residence next to my bed and following me around,

then the reports of, you know, these apparitions or presences or whatever could be very extensive because you could literally,

you know, follow these things will follow me around, Susan in particular.

Consequently, a two line report from everyone that had seen something that had a bearing on the matter could be very extensive. And therefore the school were placed in the position of having to sort of more or less investigate almost full time,

taking away the focus of their work from running the school to carrying out an investigation.

So a new approach had to be taken.

I was also tested with xenocards and various psychological questionnaires, intelligent tests and tests of perception and observation,

as well as direct comparisons between my reports of psychic matters and haunting activity relating to the old girls Independence School with documentary evidence and testimony from the surviving lady who used to run that old independent school.

So all of this established that I had a psychic ability. And it was considered that this was essentially part of the problem because these various ghosts and so on were drawn to me on the basis they could interact with me.

The testing with xenocards and so on was extensive and the whole school was essentially put on lockdown in order that this could be done, because I was placed in one classroom and the people who were going to be testing me were going to be in another.

Now, at first the boys didn't mind this because they were on the football field outside and they thought it was much better to play football, engage in physical activity, games and so on than to do their classes.

But, you know, eventually it became a problem.

I was also interviewed by various psychologists and psychiatrists and various experts in reincarnation and telepathy. And various experiments were conducted in relation to electronic voice phenomena and the recording of spectral music and spirit voices that could be heard around the school on occasion.

So it was literally a question of an old style kind of paranormal investigation, witness statements and so on, which took a lot of time and a lot of typing. And the poor old school secretary had to do a lot of this along with the bursa.

They particularly the bursa,

assisted by the school secretary,

had to do a lot of research into exactly how you test someone with Zener cards. And for that they were in contact with the SPR and other experts even further afield in universities in America and so on.

So it was very extensive,

although they were having to learn to a certain extent about how to do these things, but drawing on the experience that the headteacher and his wife had when, you know, they were courting, and also the previous experience with the other boy who was psychic and had witnessed some of the same ghosts in the same way,

and now that had all calmed down because he'd left the school and it was thought, okay,

don't mention any of this, and, you know, come down hard on any of the boys who think they've seen anything and therefore minimize its impact.

Well, that did them no good at all in the end, because everything kind of exploded in their faces when I came along.

So I was not thought of very kindly by the school and the authorities.

I learned a lot from being tested in this way,

partly in terms of thinking through my experiences, formulating exactly how to report them,

and how to deal with the uncertainties inherent within some of these experiences.

To know absolutely certain things, but not understand why or how you know something can be quite a disturbing experience.

And also to be able to think in terms of,

I don't know this but or I know such and such, but I'm not sure it's this way round or that way round.

And of course, if you start introducing these things to people in that way, then they think that you don't know what you're talking about or you're uncertain and no, it's a question of just being honest and trying to engage in the scientific process.

But this all had to emerge out of the sort of melting pot of these tests and the experiences.

So in view of this then, did you work with the school to investigate the source and origin of some of the pre existing ghostly paranormal activity?

Yes, I did.

One example of this was the investigation of this spectral music.

Now this was to be heard in the dining room extension predominantly and also in the main dining room.

Now, it was originally thought that the music originated from the gymnasium where the school's piano was kept, or from what was termed the sun lounge or was actually a junk room where the piano was sometimes stored because we had singing lessons on a Tuesday morning and it was thought that some of the boys had managed to overcome the keyboard lock with a piano or messing around with the piano.

Now this obviously logical and rational explanation fell foul of several things.

The piano, when inspected,

had its lock intact.

It was where it was expected to be locked up, either in the gym or in the sun lounge.

The school's music teacher, and also there was also a priest that we had, a local vicar.

The poor old priest had a very hard time and ran out of the school and wouldn't refuse to come back. After some interactions with Susan,

who he tried to banish unsuccessfully and she ended up banishing him.

So the same issue.

He will not use the power of God against me. I am a Christian too.

But the music teacher who also heard the spectral music knew that it was. Well, it was very complex pieces of music that could not have been performed by any of the boys in the school.

And he would even have been rather pushed himself to have played with such aplomb as the spectral musician did.

Therefore it could not be any of the boys.

So who could it be?

Well,

we were to find this out.

The first thing was to do some obvious tests which was to have somebody play the piano and see if they could be heard in the dining room extension.

And the answer to that was no, they couldn't.

So how come people could hear the spectral music when you couldn't hear the music?

Hmm,

bit of a problem there.

The next issue was, of course the sound of the piano was different.

Now I knew because I could see that there was a different piano being played by one of the two sisters.

And I could describe the piano perfectly and I did because it had one or two imperfections. It actually had some candle holders on it, one of which was broken. And I mentioned this, the school checked it out Ah, they went to the surviving sister, you see, and, oh, yes,

there was such a piano. Yes, that what, the dining room, what was the dining room extension in the new school had been used informally as a music room where the piano was stationed.

There were also some pieces of furniture there which I was able to identify.

So the answer to the problem was the spectral music derived from a ghost playing a piano.

This was not the answer that the school wanted at all, but it was one that they had to accept.

And therefore,

again, there's an issue of,

you know, sort of a clearance to a certain extent, changing things around,

furniture around and so on within the room.

So that was one particular area,

another area related to the comparison of my experiences and so on,

of the school when it was relocated several times during the war.

And this all checked out and they went,

the school,

that is the bursa, checked out exactly where the school was relocated and what had happened in that fire.

And I was able to draw a picture of the buildings that had been affected by the fire and to describe them accurately, and some of the buildings that the school had actually occupied during the war and previously.

And this was all seen to be correct by the surviving sister.

So again, some of those investigations,

and also little things that occurred when we went out on trips because there was a building in the town which had been a previous home of the school, and I knew that, and that was checked out and found to be correct.

And there were several other buildings that were owned or associated with some of these Geistal Poltergeists,

in particular with Winifred,

where she had lived with her family,

it was in Eastbourne, and I had various experiences there similar to the experiences that I had as a result of this incident with Mr. A,

and those were checked out and found to be correct.

There was also another building in Hastings that I thought had been owned at one time by a relative of Dr. George Pearce. And again, that was correct.

So all the way down the line,

when these strange incidents were investigated,

what I had said and reported was seen to be correct. There were also other things that occurred because we went out and about in the school of Bus on various trips,

places like Beachy Head or other places where there was hauntings or whatever. And again, I was checked out about that,

became a bit of a celebrity within school as a result of it. But all of these things checked out, which again established first off that, you know, I did have psychic sensitivity and I was kind of reporting things accurately in such a way that they could be checked out and when they were Essentially,

I was seen to be correct.

One of the very sad things that happened was a premonition about the death of one of the boys at the school through a tragic accident.

And again, that was an exercise in how to work out the various circumstances that were shown to me through the premonition.

And when all the pieces of the puzzle were correct,

then the incident occurred, but not before.

Unfortunately, though,

if I had been listened to, the incident could have been prevented. But the school were determined to prove to me that what I was saying was nonsense and that it would not occur.

I unfortunately it did,

much to the shame and sorrow of all concerned.

So what was the Warrens involvement in the school's investigation of you? And did they assist the school in investigating you? And you know, if so,

what was the result of that? Kieran?

Well, originally the Warrens were suggested to a member of Cairstoff Pat by the local bishop who had come to carry out sort of a clearance and exorcism of myself as an individual and part of the school.

The school's view was that they needed to take a scientific, that is, a rational approach to what was going on and that therefore they did not want to go down the spiritual route because that seemed insubstantial as far as the local education authority were concerned.

And of course the in the London Education Authority whose school it was,

they had a hard enough time trying to convince those two authorities to allow them to deal with the matter themselves rather than, you know, have the matter taken out of their hands.

So originally the Warrens came in as a result of contact that was facilitated by the local Catholic bishop. And the school worked with for a time with the Warrens and with the local vicar and bishop and so on to try and sort out what was going on.

Now my friend,

I had a very good mate now his father was a vicar and he was able to sort of say, look,

this is not the work of the devil or demons or anything. What you have here is you have poltergeists. Don't quite know or understand why and how many of them.

But there were various people that he put the school in contact with who were in the first stages of drawing up what was to become an important report within the church about deliverance and poltergeists and such.

So some of those people became involved, at least on an advisory and remote kind of level.

Now at first the Warrens thought this was a good thing because they thought that these various priests and high clarity people within the church would support their point of view, but they didn't the Warrens were determined, as I said, to prove that there was only one entity at work and that was the devil.

The devil acting through seven smaller devils, all of which who could rely on the activities of the 49 servitors.

After an initial row between Ed and her teacher in which they were banned from the school,

an alliance was formed between the head teacher's wife and this member of Care Services, Pat.

I was summoned out of the shower by Pat on the basis that I had an Auntie Lorraine that wanted to talk to me on the phone.

Well, as I said, I didn't have an Auntie Lorraine.

So I said, I don't know what you're talking about, Pat. And I hid in the shower. He came into the shower after me and threw me out of the shower and decided to have a go at me until such time as I decided I was going to have an Auntie Lorraine.

Now, again,

Susan interceded and made sure that he did not attack me in the way that he had originally envisaged he would.

But nevertheless,

I still needed to go and talk to my Auntie Lorraine. So I did so on the payphone in the hall of the school with a towel pinned around me.

There was also other activity that went on at that time that was down to George Pearce.

But I was talking to Lorraine on the phone where she was describing these seven devils and the 49 servitors. And I was desperately trying to do the arithmetic and she was telling me it wasn't as simple as that.

And the whole school was basically being taken over by demons. And what needed to happen was that they needed to come and stay at the school,

banish all the demons,

exorcise the place and me, and then take me back to America with them.

Well, none of that ever happened.

The school wanted to go along the scientific route, or at least not this demonic route. And therefore what the Warrens wanted to do was banish all the organizations and be the sole sort of investigators.

Now, eventually what happened was they ended up being marginalized and marginalized themselves because of the extreme nature of their claims.

And one of those was related to this business of there being a demon or the devil hiding behind the apparition of Susan. Now by my bed. Susan always used to take up place there.

Now, there would be. There was a mark on the lino there, a sort of semi.

Well, basically a sort of a circular mark which would have been the outline of the skirt of her dress and within that, two sort of imprints of shoes.

This was ingrained into the lino and the cleaners couldn't get it out without damaging the lino.

Quite how it came to be there, nobody knew. But it was there and could be seen.

Now, I was going to show Ed this and he was absolutely determined to tell me, look,

you know,

there's no such thing as these ghosts. There are only demons taking the form of ghosts. So what do you mean, Kieran, you know that you can sense the presence of this lady Susan from down the corridor.

You can't know where she is.

That's not possible. And I sort of said, well, yes, it is, it is. I perceive her presence. There's some sort of link between us and I know where she is.

Even though there might be,

you know,

more than one kind of cold spot or presence of her, I know where that. Where she is. I know where the others are as well. And it's driving me crazy because I just don't have any headspace, you know, I just want to get on with living in the school.

This, this is. This is too much for me to bear. And we walk down the corridor, up some small stairs and around to dorm 119.

And I said, look, there she is. She's in that room.

I can tell you she's in that room.

No, she's not. You know, that's the trouble with you, Kieran. You're letting it all run away with you. It's all in your mind.

No, Mr. Warren, it isn't. There are so many people that have witnessed so many things that everyone here now knows is not in my mind. It's very, very real.

So we go into room 119 and Ed is really in a bad state. He's very nervous, he's perspiring.

Because it's just this thing about the experiences he had when he was young and the haunted house in which he lived and trouble with his auntie that sort of haunted him.

And the apparition of the landlady that used to come out of a wardrobe at him. He was extremely nervous,

so he was hot.

And when he went into the room, he took off his jacket and said,

young lady, can you look after this for me?

And he sort of half gave, half tossed his jacket towards the young lady that was standing glassy eyed, staring at him and me as we entered the room.

Neither he nor I quite understood how that jacket came to be folded around her arms. And she stood there looking at us, arms folded, head tilted back.

Yes,

you think I am servant.

You are wrong,

she said.

But he didn't take any notice of that.

And I thought it was best not to either,

but I was wrong.

So I went to where my bed had been and I explained the business about the cupboard where, you know, similar.

Where Susan had sort of been seen as wardrobe and this pattern by my bed.

And Susan's presence became more and more prominent and Ed became more and more uncomfortable and he kept telling me, this is a demon masquerading as a spirit.

Spirits can't do this. They can't leave marks on lino.

They can't. You know,

this business of. In the war, the wardrobe. There was a shadow in the back of the wardrobe. That's not possible.

Yes, it is, because it's there.

Don't know how it's there. I don't know why it's there, but it's there.

I've seen it. Well, you've seen. Everyone's seen it. It's there. Just like the mark on the liner, it's there.

So he decides he's going to have none of it.

So then what happens is, I've had enough of this. I'm going to, you know,

I'm going to report this. Brought my findings, you know, back to the head teacher and the. And the bursa and so on.

And the figure in this,

that was still sort of fuming in the side,

the back of the room just says,

no,

no,

he does not know.

He does not know what he is talking about.

He is no good.

He is not good, man.

He's no good.

And at that point,

Ed whirls around to see this woman standing there.

She then throws his jacket at him.

He's so startled,

falls on the floor, he picks it up and he starts arguing with her.

Young lady,

you are being incredibly rude and disrespectful to me. I am going to report you. I'm going to report you to the headteacher and I'm going to. I don't know who you are, but I'm going to have you thrown out of this school and blah, blah, blah.

I'm going to get the police onto you. I'm going to get uno, blah, blah, blah. And I said I wouldn't, I wouldn't. Just don't argue with her. Just, just please, Mr.

Warren,

let's just leave.

We can talk to the head teacher and the person who are as soon as we can find them. Please don't antagonize.

And we sort of move our way out of the room when she's sort of pointing at him, saying,

no good,

no good,

no good.

And I get outside and I say to Ed,

that's a lucky escape. So what are you talking about? I've got to do something about that young woman. I'm not going to be treated like this. You know, we come over here, Lorraine and I, to help you, to help the school, and I am not going to be insulted by her.

And I said, you don't know who you've just seen, do you?

And he said, no,

I don't care, because I'm going to report this. And I said, I wouldn't if I were you. So we have a meeting.

Mr. Warren goes in, he has his say, I'm outside,

then I'm brought in, have my say, and then we're both brought in side by side,

right? Your point of view is this your point of view is that so?

It was then the news was broken to Ed Warren that it was not possible to sack the young lady concerned because she didn't work at the school.

And the problem was that she was the problem,

because that was Susan.

So after that,

he lost quite a bit of credibility for not being able to recognize a ghost when he saw one. The other instances and things like superhuman strength, well, that was kind of already been settled because I wasn't able to overturn my friend's bed speaking in tongues.

Well, although I could intuitively understand what Susan was saying and some of the Polish speech because she was Polish,

that I couldn't really cut to make the grade on that one.

As for knowing things that couldn't be known,

well, yes,

but wasn't that a question of my psychic ability in contact with these ghosts and spirits which was being tested and found to be accurate?

So again, it was a matter of judgment. Was this a matter of psychic ability and poltergeist activity and so on, or was it the demonic? Well, the school believed it was not the demonic.

So the Warrens found themselves somewhat sent to Coventry,

while the school took a rather different approach.

However,

the Warrens didn't actually let this lie and they carried on coming back to the school,

even despite having arguments with various people and having been challenged after they were faking phenomena. But the difficulty was that Pat and a number of the other staff formed a pressure group on the school to actually get help from the Warrens because there was no one else and progress,

sufficient progress wasn't being made through the other more scientific routes.

Eventually the Warrens were asked to leave the school in such a way that they could not come back, and they didn't.

I was later to meet them again,

but that's another story.

So what lessons Then, Kieran, did you take away from these experiences and the way that you were investigated and assisted the school in its investigation of yourself and paranormal activity occurring within the school?

Well, there were a number of them.

The first is about xenocards and card guessing experiments.

This relies essentially on a good rapport and therefore psychic connection between the person carrying out the test and the investigator and the subject.

It all relies on that and on timing.

Because when do you make your guess?

Because what you need to do is have some clear headspace in between trying to guess the last card,

this card, and the next one.

If the person who is taking a card from the pack simply does so as a mechanical action,

then the result is likely to be poor if they don't look at it.

Because after all, what is this a test of?

Is it a test of remote viewing, that is, can I or anybody else see what is see the card through a brick wall or several brick walls between rooms?

Or is it a test of telepathy, that is a connection between my mind and the mind of the person who's just.

Has just turned over the card.

Is it part of their job to try to communicate with me or me with them to see the card or,

you know, through telepathy, establish that contact?

Or is it a remote viewing exercise or is it a precognition exercise? What will the next card be? Yeah,

trying to guess. In that sense, are you trying to predict the future or are you trying to get inside somebody's mind or see what they see?

And that led me to the conclusion that it is almost impossible to test people accurately with xenocards.

Now, a good example of exactly the source of problems is that they use two packs of Zener cards. There was a red,

blue one, and I think there's a red one or green one. So there's three packs or something.

Sometimes I could get the color, sometimes I could get the symbol, and sometimes I get the symbol and the color.

But the other right, is the amount of concentration because you have to concentrate a particular time.

Because if you don't do that, then you don't know whether the card is ready to be guessed or not. Is that the last card or whatever? You don't know.

So you need to be told,

make your guess now.

You know, because the cards are now being turned over and you need to be clear about what kind of a test it is. In other words, is it a test of trying to find out what the person's.

What the person has in their hand, that card,

or is it trying to see through their eyes, you know, remote viewing, precognition or telepathy.

And a good example of the need for rapport was that I had much better results with people that I knew and liked and knew and liked me than I had with those who didn't know me particularly well or didn't like me.

This member of care staff, Pat, for example,

you know, there was a lot of conflict between us and therefore when we did some sessions with him that he didn't really want to do,

then the results were poor.

But I did manage to pick up that he was distracted. He didn't really want to do the test, but I knew that anyway.

That was obvious from the social situation.

But there was something wrong. He'd seen the doctor and there was something wrong that he hadn't anticipated that would affect him. Something that was the result of his poor lifestyle and that would affect him and that he would need to change his life.

And it was something to do with, you know, his body.

Something to do with sugar.

I didn't quite know what, couldn't quite put the pieces together, but it was a problem with sugar.

He couldn't have sugar in his tea anymore or coffee. And that really annoyed him and upset him and he'd have. He might have to have injections and so on, and that he'd have to take.

He would certainly have to take some pills.

Now,

when that was looked into,

it was found that he actually had just been to the doctor and been told he had diabetes.

So quite a remarkable result, you would think. But the Zenercard tests for that session were very poor.

So rapport is a key factor. If you don't have the rapport, then you don't get the results.

The other thing about it is,

in a different sense,

psychic impression data is something that comes across to you. It is paradigm dependent, dependent on what the other person,

or ghost or spirit, whatever, wants to communicate to you in the first instance. And things come across to you in different times in different ways. I mean, if you just imagine,

for example, opening your front door,

if you imagine it's an exercise, tell me exactly what you would see.

Well, you might be able to visualize it all very quickly, but you can't communicate it all very quickly.

So you would have to start by saying, well, I open the door and I see this or that's there and blah, blah, blah. So it would take time.

So again, as with a sort of telepathy,

mind to mind transmission,

things can take time.

So to allow for that,

don't expect results instantly, although the Information can be transmitted instantly. It's a bit like the Internet in that sense. You send someone an email, you should get it almost instantly, but it can take an hour or two or whatever.

So that's one thing.

The other thing is that you have to work with that perspective that is theirs, not yours. And that means that you have to try and understand things from there its point of view,

which is not easy.

And the reason that I mention this is because this has a tremendous impact on things like seance sessions or ghost hunting and calling out or whatever,

because you actually get into a situation where you're asking inappropriate and daft questions because you don't understand what somebody is trying to tell you.

You've got to work with what they're telling you and work round to what you want to know from them.

Therefore there's an art in it. It's not just a question of saying,

is there anybody there?

Said the ghost,

as you might say,

or can you come and move this?

Who are you talking to?

Because unless you can establish a contact and build up a rapport, then you may as well be addressing an empty room without a ghost on the basis that there isn't one there, rather than there might be, because you've got to engage with them and start that communication,

because that is the key to everything else.

And that's what I've tried to do over the course of all these years and to kind of use the abilities that I have such that I do have in a way that I can obtain veridical information during these contacts and make the most of it and report it accurately with all the necessary caveats.

The other thing that I think really follows from this is the importance of telepathic veridical dreams of the dead that actually come from ghosts or spirits or apparitions, as a sort of a broadcast or emanation from them that you can obtain really good quality veridical information from them, which can be checked out and does check out against documentary records,

thus establishing proof of the contact and also survival, which I think is a very important aspect, because that's why so many of us are involved in psychical research in the first place.

Kieran. I was transfixed. That was an amazing, amazing chat with you. Is there anything else that you thought of whilst we were chatting?

Well, only that part of the difficulty with Ed and Lorraine was essentially they were trying to force things back onto their agenda.

You know, of the demonic, of Bathsheba Sherman, of rituals being conducted, of an occult and unsavory nature.

Never in fact took place and that created a lot of problems for the school and so on, and I was caught up in that. And that led to a considerable conflict.

And that showed me several things.

Firstly,

coming back to accurate reporting.

Report accurately,

say what you think and provide interpretations,

but don't falsify,

don't use an agenda and fit the truth to presumed facts.

Work from the bottom up,

which starts with good observation. All science starts with good observation. And then work your way through to deductions and conclusions. And always be prepared to hear another point of view.

Because again, after all these years,

so many of these experiences which I've had remained unexplained.

Not in the sense that I have arrived at my own personal answers,

but in the sense that I still don't know how such things are possible,

how it is that a ghost or spirit poltergeist can have an apparitional form and can be solid in the sense of it. He she can exert a physical force against the living person that can throw them across the room.

But on another occasion, seconds later,

somebody can dive through that apparition,

dive through it and sort of emerge on the other side of it as if it was not there, or sort of experience it as if it had been sort of insubstantial, a sort of jelly like thing with no substantial form to it.

Yet it has the power to throw someone across the room as a living person would, and even exceeding the strength that you would expect a living person to have.

I do not understand that.

I never have.

I don't think I ever will.

But I suppose that's the mystery of all this.

To be witness to the impossible and to try to explain it and to make my life's work attempting to do

so honestly,

it's been such a privilege to chat with you about your experiences and there is still, of course, an awful lot for us still to uncover and to discuss in the next podcast.

For now though, I will say thank you again to my guest Kieran,

and goodbye to everybody listening. Bye everybody.

Thank you for joining us on this journey into the unknown.

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Until next time,

Keep your eyes open and your mind curious.