Russell Fuller: BBC Tennis Correspondent

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 209 of Control the Controllables. And what better way to show up my lack of broadcasting experience than bringing in a superstar broadcaster.

Russell Fuller  00:24

And I just found it's so exhilarating, the most incredible sensation. I mean, you're on Centre Court describing Roger Federer but the buzz of doing tennis commentary,

Daniel Kiernan  00:32

Russell Fuller is the tennis correspondent for the BBC. He's been to five Olympic Games, he's worked in golf and cricket and rugby. He spent many an hour in the VIP seats on the big shore courts, whether that's Andy Murray winning Wimbledon, or whether that is Cathy Freeman, running to glory in the Sydney Olympics and making history. I first came across Russell 10 plus years ago, as I had the pleasure, the privilege of of sharing a commentators booth. And anyone that does listen to the podcast on a regular basis will know the admiration that I have for these incredible commentators, especially on radio who bring things alive. And Russell certainly does that. He's an iconic voice, in tennis, and certainly in British tennis. And it was a real pleasure to have him on. I'm going to pass you over now to Russell Fuller. So Russell Fuller a big welcome to Control the Controllables how're you doing?

Russell Fuller  01:42

Nice to be on the show. Nice to be on the pod Dan.

Daniel Kiernan  01:45

And it's nice to see your face Russell because I'm so used to that voice and that beautiful voice telling me so many amazing dramatic things that have happened on the tennis court and in many other sports over the years. So to have your face there as well. And unfortunately, we didn't get to meet up last week. But I know you were in my part of the world sunny Spain, Malaga for the Davis Cup finals. So now that you're back in the UK, what's your reflections on how the Davis Cup finals turned out?

Russell Fuller  02:20

I can see why you live in southern Spain, especially on November, when there were a lot of people who were there for the tennis clearly from all the countries particularly GB, the Czech Republic and the Finns watching the tennis but I think there were probably quite a few people judging by my flight on the way back who regularly now they're retired will pop over to Malaga, or somewhere in southern Spain for some sun. So the weather was glorious, not super, super hot by the standards of the US Open or the Australian Open. But that blue sky, which I don't think left us for the entire week. absolutely glorious and the event was very successful. Now I know this discussion really gets a lot of people's teeth on edge because I do accept that those classic Home and Away ties we used to have in Davis Cup, you can't replicate those in a neutral venue. But if you are starting with the premise that this is the way we are going to do it, that was a big success because the ITF persuaded a lot of fans to travel, having it in Malaga obviously helps for the reasons we've just been talking about. And there was genuinely a very, very good atmosphere in in every tie. And I think the best of three matches per tie works. I mean, clearly I know Lleyton Hewitt disagrees, but we can't go back to best of five set tennis and Davis Cup, the best of three sets works. The doubles is an interesting one. I don't know how you feel about this, because somebody was saying to me well, isn't it a bit unfair, the doubles may not even get on court. And I think on reflection is in quite a good place because it is so often the pivotal match that decides the tie although you did feel a bit sorry for Neal Skupski Joe Salisbury last week when Great Britain were out, they didn't get to play a single match. Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  04:08

and I think on that one, Russell, for me, it's it's the time of year that it is that makes it difficult for the doubles guys that don't end up playing. They probably go home with a fair whack of money in their pocket. So we shouldn't feel too sorry for them. But you know, the fact that especially if we take Joe and Neal in particular, it is a long old season. And actually, you could argue longer for the doubles players than the singles players because they probably played 20 25% more tournaments, and then they made Turin. Then you finish terrain, and then you're thinking, Well, I'm already getting my visa sorted for Australia. I'm flying out on December the 26th 27th United cup is around the corner. And then I travel a train all week. And I don't get caught and then I don't get home. Until what round about November the 28th 29th. And I've got to start thinking about getting my body in shape for leaving in three or four weeks. That I think is is that is the challenge. But I would agree with you and I was I was gutted actually because I mean, I was there for the for the finish tie, the first round as coaching Hariyali. Guevara this year, and that was incredible. And coming down to the doubles was something quite special. And then the GB fans were arguably even better in in in bigger numbers. And but I was there last year Russell, I'm sure you would have been as well. It didn't feel the same last year, I came away a little bit disappointed. So I do wonder whether the fact that I know we missed Spain this year, and the Spanish tie got good last year, but it didn't start great. You know, but the British fans and the Finnish fans and what I can see from TV, the Italians as well seem to really make that home atmosphere that then everyone bounces off. And I guess I just wonder if the likes of USA, and these countries are in there, which happened last year, then we can be left a little bit with that kind of damp feeling of this is not the event that we all love so much.

Russell Fuller  06:16

I think you need if you're gonna stage it in Malaga, you need a lot of European countries there. And there are likely to be aren't there. But we did have Canada competing this year and Australia. And it's very, very hard for many of their fans unless they're expats to get over there for a week, which could just be the one tie. So I think there was a good combination of countries this particular year. I wasn't there actually last year, but that's what I gathered from others that they had moved it on another step. especially difficult given that Spain weren't there. And they say we know that the group stage of the finals in September still need some work. And we had some brilliant atmospheres in Manchester for the GB ties. But as Stemberg Branca very clearly pointed out on social media, it was pretty rubbish for that opening tie between Switzerland and France. So they say, right, we know we need to prove that. And I think having seen the step forward they made from 2022 to 2023. I'm inclined to think okay, I believe you I think maybe you can make improvements. But I still doubt how you're going to sell out. I don't really care who's playing stamp of rank is a big name within our world. But if you plastered Stan Wawrinka all over billboards, how many people would actually pay good money to go and watch him play indoors in September, on a Tuesday afternoon, when the schools are gone back and everybody's gone back to work after the summer holiday? I just think realistically, it's going to be very, very, very hard ever to get decent crowds for these ties in Bologna, Valencia, Manchester, wherever it might be if the hosts are not involved.

Daniel Kiernan  07:48

What do you think of this idea, and I actually had this conversation with a few of the players actually, this year, we you find yourself in these conversations at times, of maybe running it every two or three years, having almost that kind of world cup of tennis vibe that they're trying to get. And we were very lucky and Andelucia here in Spain, we also had the Billie Jean King Cup finals in severe. So we've kind of been spoiled over the last few weeks. But then almost taking it to 16 teams, maybe 24. I don't know. But running it a little bit more of that world cup style, but actually not doing it to death. We had the draw for the next year, like the day after the final I think it was and it feels a little bit like wall wall wall what the house that happened, you know, so maybe maybe moving it to every two years might give that more special feeling? I don't know.

Russell Fuller  08:43

Yeah, I mean, there is one school of thought. And this is not a brand new concept, but it's certainly doing the rounds at the moment is that you would stage it over two years. So you'd have ties at all stages over the two years. I'm not quite sure what the ideal format would be. But you'd only ever crowned the champions once every two years. I think the IETF would worry about a lack of exposure, or lack of income. Perhaps if that was the case, I don't know what happens if you couldn't have a situation where you lost in the first round in February of one year. And you didn't come back into the competition for another couple of years. But we shall see. What fascinates me is the role the ATP will play now because you know, they have a strategic alliance with the ITF. And part of the remit is to look at the evolution of the competition. Now, we know that there are quite a few players and they can be quite vocal. We know the Australians feel very passionately about this, who do want to go back to Home and Away ties. How serious is the playing group? In that opinion? How much political capital do the ATP want to exercise? Perhaps if they feel so their members aren't happy and want change? How much effort did they put into it? Or ultimately will the ITF really continue to call the shots. And they seem absolutely very, very happy with a few tweaks to come to the format they have. I spoke to Dave Haggerty, last week, the President of the ITF. And Mark Woodford who chairs the Davis Cup committee, and they say, Look, we are looking at it, it's a periodical review is going to be the same next year, it could potentially change from 2025. But I don't sense for what they say at all, that they think there is that much wrong with the current format.

Daniel Kiernan  10:28

And that and that takes us. I want to jump into that bigger picture conversation maybe in a few minutes. Russell, because I think it does. That's where my mind goes when we start talking about all of these different organizations that are running within the sport of tennis. And you know, that's a conversation you've certainly had all the time. But I would like us to explore that a little bit. But before we do that 2023 From a tennis side has now come to an end. We could have a full podcast episode just on this summarizing all of the great things they're not so good things, the challenges. The US Open that is sold out the Vienna event that can't sell tickets. Sorry, Vienna, I don't mean you specifically. But I'm talking about ATP 250s, WTA 250s. Very briefly, what's your summary of 2023?

Russell Fuller  11:25

I still see a lot of tournaments, playing to very, very good crowds generally around the world. Now, I don't go to very many of the smaller tournaments. And it's some you see on television, I know that some absolutely struggle. The Grand Slams just seemed to get bigger and bigger and bigger than they were every single year, the numbers on site at the US Open was extraordinary. And actually probably too many, it just got to the point where you're paying a lot of money for the ticket if you're a spectator, and it was really, really hard to move. And I I was struck by the same thing at Wimbledon and the French Open. And certainly the Australian Open, whose crowds had suffered a little bit post pandemic was back up to full volume this year. So it was exhilarating. Being on site pretty much every single day of the grand slams, the Masters events, I'm not enjoying these 12 Day masters events throughout the season. Now I quite enjoy Indian Wells, because that's the event I go to at that time of the year. And again, the sun seeker, just like Malaga in November, Southern California, in part is very nice place to be, as you know. And actually, I do think that Indian Wells Miami because there's such a gap between the Australian Open and the French Open to have to longer Master Series events in such great weather is actually a good staging point along the season. But I was in Madrid, and that seemed to drag. And then we're going to have Rome. And then we're going to have Cincinnati and Canada I think in years to come. And then Shanghai which of course is not a combined event. And maybe it was late season for tea. But I really struggle with that. The shedule was so thin, wasn't it over the last few days. And it just felt like this has no energy. I don't think they're gonna go back on that because they think this is the business model that will work. It's gonna make more money for everybody. But I found that really hard to stay engaged with.

Daniel Kiernan  13:14

Well Rome. I felt like Rome was about a two month tournament. It was it was it still going you know, I was there with with my boys and we went on a they lost a tight match second round. And we actually went off to Bourdeax to play a Challenger event. A big Challenger event actually Wawrinka played Murray in that event in 175 ATP challenger event sold out every day. And what was beautiful from a coaching standpoint for that. And I know for a player's standpoint, certainly on the doubles to their first round was Wednesday. Their final was Saturday. Yeah, we've got in on Tuesday practiced Wednesday night routine, same routine Thursday, same routine Friday, same routine Saturday, out of their Saturday evening. On to on to the next thing and it's certainly from a player's standpoint. And I would also talk about the teams around the players from a mental health standpoint from you know, being stuck away from families, you know, people in the media. The downside of those events, I think is massive. If we just talk about purely from a tennis standpoint and the tennis industry and getting more eyeballs onto our sport. That seems like a massive waste to me and I can't remember actually what it was Iga Swiatek's ex coach, he was on the podcast, and he came up with what I thought was a great idea. He said, Let's take Rome. You've got that first week and if you can almost get through to the quarterfinals by the end of the first week. Use the second week to also these you got this amazing venue, you've already got lots of fans wanting to come in, you know, give them content to watch, put an ATP 250 event and a WTA 250 event on the same site and week two of those masters 1000s. And I thought that was a really nice, I'm sure there's logistical headaches with that. But I thought that was a really nice way to look at it. Because ultimately, we live in a world where people want content people want to see and people want to be entertained. And you know, already, arguably, the scoring system in tennis doesn't adhere to that at times the way that the world is going. But certainly, those masters 1000 events from a player and coach point of view, wasn't a success this year, in my opinion.

Russell Fuller  15:49

Yeah. Well, I think they are here to stay, aren't they? I don't think that is going to change anytime soon. And the argument was that players will be able to rest their bodies more, wasn't it initially that they wouldn't be playing every day, so we'd be less susceptible to injury. But I think the point you make and others have made is absolutely spot on. It's the the strain on players mental health, and they're still working, aren't they? It might be a day off, but you're still working, you're still going through the grind. And it does if you're successful me longer away from home in the family. Absolutely.

Daniel Kiernan  16:19

So we've put 2023 to rights somewhat the question I always ask Russell to everyone that's been on the podcast, and it's been mainly tennis people. But we have kind of delved into other sports as well. But I'm always interested in I asked Jonathan Overend, the same question. What's your tennis background? You know, in terms of from a playing side, in I would imagine the passion you speak with? It sounds to me like you've certainly got some background in the sport.

Russell Fuller  16:53

Yeah, I'm not sure how honest Jonathan overend was but from experience of playing him about his level, or maybe even slightly above his level, but I wouldn't say that about many people on the tour. I was a member of a tennis club when I was younger Woking tennis club, quite a big tennis club in the SouthEast of England, when there are grass courts there, I think there probably still are. So that was quite a buzz to play. And I always enjoyed it. And my mum, that was her favorite sport. So she encouraged it. And I played, I played semi regularly, I would say through my teens and had a few lessons but actually then started playing golf in my mid teens. And I prefer golf as a activity as a sport to play and played more of that and the tennis suffered. And I have played occasionally with my sons over the last few years. But actually, a couple of them are now moving more towards the golf and there's only a certain number of hours in the day. So I I still think that there is going to come a time where I probably do return to it. And I will definitely need some lessons available. But I think I will, I will enjoy it once again. But in years to come. I'm never going to be an over 60 or an over 70 Seniors champion that's for sure. It'd be purely recreational and and for enjoyment. And

Daniel Kiernan  18:02

what about journalism? What was your journey into journalism?

Russell Fuller  18:06

Well, I can remember when I was really quite small, I very much wanted to be a radio presenter or a TV presenter, even though we didn't really have quite any concept of what that involves. I can remember almost doing my own shows in my head. I think to start with I was I was the continuity announcer so I can remember when I was really, maybe he was still a primary school, or a wandering around and no one else knew because I was keeping the words to myself, but I was probably just linking from one program to the other in my head. It would have been Howard's way or a program like that or Wogan in days like that. And then I did a couple of days work experience at the age of 16. And the local radio station didn't really think too much more of it, chose my university degree without doing a great deal of research about the radio station but went to Exeter to do French and German. And I'd have to say as luck had it, they had a fantastic radio station. I think they still do. And I went along to the first meeting again nearly missed that first meeting because it was on the first Sunday afternoon of the first year. And so we've had our first big Saturday night out the night before and you can guess 18 years of age not great tolerance to alcohol feeling pretty ropey the next day, it was pouring with rain as it tends to do in Exeter in October, and I nearly didn't even turn up to the meeting. But I dragged myself out of bed. And I was hooked pretty quickly. And we had so much fun. I did a mixture of news and sport and even a few music programs. The sports program is the main thing and we used to send the reporters to St. James's Park, not your St James'. The really, really famous one and we would be mixing with the press boys. Again, we're probably not talking about Fleet Street's heavyweights but we're talking about the Exeter City reporter from the Express and echo but what a brilliant way to learn about journalism and we put together these long sports shows and it was a brilliant brilliant way to learn and that Dan was the moment I think I realized I can do this, I ended up getting some work presenting a Saturday afternoon show on Devonn Air, the local independent radio station in my second and fourth years at uni, I had a year in France in between. And it really went from there. I went to Cardiff and did a post grad for a year, and then started working in BBC southern counties, radio Surrey and Sussex, as a news reporter, first of all, and then I started presenting didn't do very much sport until the Jobs came up for BBC Sport. And I thought, right, this is the kind of thing I want to do.

Daniel Kiernan  20:33

For me, and I've said this a few times on the podcast, but I really mean it and like hearing your voice, and it's, I love it I because it's, it evokes so many memories, for me as a as a as an avid sports fan. And I even go back to like our family holidays, listen, listening to Test Match Special, you know, and did I love cricket? I'm not sure I did. But I love the I love the drama of how it was being described and what was happening. And that was, obviously we didn't have all of the different kind of music that you can get whatever you want on Spotify. So that was it driving through the UK and into France, we would listen to the test match special for six hours, and I would lose myself and it is something absolutely magic about radio commentary for me in sport. And and that's, I think the question that jumps to me, and I've been fortunate enough to be in the commentary box a few times. And I sit there in awe of you guys that are able to describe the picture so beautifully that you actually feel like you're there, which is very different from presenting a show. You know, you're so how do you go from being a presenter to someone who commentates on the match and, and is able to, to bring that picture so beautifully. And so, so cleanly?

Russell Fuller  22:07

It's a very pertinent question because I never really saw myself as a commentator, certainly in my 20s it was it was all about the presenting and that seemed to be my obvious strong suit on what I most enjoyed. And then I started doing some golf commentary, which is a real buzz I've done a lot of Open Championships had one Masters one US Open and a few Ryder cups and that was absolutely brilliant being part of the five live golf team inside the ropes at these amazing venues.

Daniel Kiernan  22:34

You have to have a good indoor. We talked to our kids all the time. Speaking your indoor voice. I heard somebody say my kids don't have an indoor voice. They have a Spanish loud voice always. But to be a golf commentator, you've got to have a good indoor voice.

Russell Fuller  22:50

Yeah, absolutely. But that role is more. It's very different from most other sports you could possibly commentate on. And I think that's why it suited me because I I honestly don't think I would have ever made it as a rugby commentator as a football commentator. If I'd wanted to which I didn't. I just don't have the skill set. And people say Oh, well you've commentated on tennis and you've done all these other sports. I'm sure you can do football. I said no, genuinely not. I just think the speed of the game and the fact that you've got 22 players on the pitch to identify, I just don't think it would have been me. But I think the descriptive side of things came naturally. And there are some parallels between golf and tennis, and cricket, which I've done a little bit of as well, in clearly, there's a lot of time between balls being delivered in cricket. And as you know, there's quite a long time between points in tennis as well. So those skills come in. And then I suppose the contradiction is that when you are commentating, it is rapidly fast on the radio, you don't always describe every single shot because it would be too repetitive to people listening in. But there are times where it's very exciting, very important, where you might try and describe every shot. And then I think it's just about being fairly quick thinking, actually a times like that the flowery language, you don't really have room or time for that, but just being accurate, varying your vocabulary. And I think it was partly instinct, just where my skills were. I never really thought too much about it. But that doesn't mean I found it easy to start with, because I can remember my first few years of tennis commentary I would do, perhaps a week at the French Open, I would do a week, maybe eight or nine days at Wimbledon for a mixture of five live in the world service. And I might do a couple of days at the oh two when the ATP finals arrive there. But I didn't really do very much tennis and there were times where I remember one editor saying to me once he said, right, I'm gonna give you I remember this very, very clearly. It was my first big center court match. It was the fourth round of Wimbledon. I think it might have been 2004 Maybe a couple of years later about them Roger Federer against Juan Carlos Ferreira fourth round Center Court. And I think I had I certainly had free McMillan with me and If it was either John Lloyd, possibly, as my other summarizer. And the editor said to me afterwards, I was a bit worried about you to start with there, because I think I started quite slowly because I was so nervous, but I thought you were ready for it. And he said, I threw you in a little bit. And I just found it's so exhilarating, the most incredible sensation. I mean, you're on Centre Court describing Roger Federer, but the buzz of doing tennis commentary. And so I did not take to it like a duck to water at all. And I think I'm still improving all the time. But I've convinced myself I'm a commentator now, which if you'd asked me 15 years ago, I think I would have had doubts. And

Daniel Kiernan  25:39

when you said that the Roger Federer won Carlos Ferreira and that exhilaration of of that match on center court. You've also commentated on Sir Andy Murray. In a Wimbledon final, Great Britain winning a Davis Cup, you know, how? How, How's that feeling? You know, because knowing that, are you able to go into that and you're such a professional of your craft? But are you able to go in there a bit like a tennis player, and just get into the process? Or does the mind shift to concerns about the outcome and how many people are listening and the magnitude of the match and the situation that you are a part of?

Russell Fuller  26:22

Normally no, but certainly Andy Murray 2013, which I did for the World Service, I was alongside Jonathan, who was doing his final Wimbledon final for five loads of turned down, at least his tennis correspondent. And then again, in 2016, when it was fairly clear that Andy was going to beat me last round, it's in that final as the match unfolded. And then also, when Emma Radek, Carney won in New York, I wasn't actually on commentary, because she won in straight sets, and GG someone was doing the second set. But I think those three occasions, you know, this is a really, really big deal. And that devil in your ear is telling you don't fuck it up, fuck it out. This is gonna be on the archives forever in a day. And you know, that a, it's a big event for the nation, your heart is beating that much faster. You want to do justice to it. And also, I wouldn't say you feel overwhelmed with emotion. But that definitely comes into it. Because I'm not a personal friend of Andy Murray or Emma Raducanu, obviously don't know Emma, all that. Well, she's very early in her career, I've got a lot of time for Andy always got on well with him, but we're not mates. But you follow these people around the world? You want them to succeed? Of course you do. We want British tennis succeed, because that makes people more interested in the sport. And it's good for what we do. And also you get to like these people. In many cases, there are a few exceptions. But therefore you're rooting for them, aren't you, and there are some players you are really, really pleased for. And I'm the sort of person that certainly when I was younger, I would cry very easily at a great sporting moments on television. And I think that's also a slight element of it. And you just want to make sure that that doesn't spoil your presentation of the moment. Very

Daniel Kiernan  28:12

well put, that one of the questions that you've already answered for me is a little bit of the comparison of sports. And but but I want to delve a little deeper into that because you've become very much a tennis person and actually in a position of influence. You know, there's there's, there's millions of people that are listening to, to your tech to your opinion to you describing what's happening. You're obviously in the mix. So you've developed, you've developed all of these, all of these philosophies and you will have an opinion that's quite deep rooted. Now, I would imagine in tennis scenarios. My question on this is, and this is actually probably influenced from Thomas Johansson last week, when I was speaking to Thomas and we talked about Swedish tennis that obviously back in the day was this glorious era, from beyond ball to Mats Wilander in order to Stefan Edberg just saw many Nicolas calty to and he kind of almost came on the back of that. And then 2002 He won the Australian Open. But there was one journalist there from Sweden at that time. Now, if you go on from 2002 and Swedish tennis, they haven't built on that golden era. We've had Robin Soderling, who's had some some success, but now they're at the point where there's not one ATP or WTA, top 100 player. And that just brings the question to me. I know there's varying reasons, but in your opinion, how influential is the success of a country that comes from the Media, you know, how do you is that something that you feel in your position that you can influence not just yourself as, as a radio presenter, radio commentator, but the greater media? How important is that?

Russell Fuller  30:13

I don't think we can influence it. But we certainly would help. We are the provider in many ways, aren't we? So that if you have as the LTA a homegrown champion that is moving through the rounds at Wimbledon, then that is projected by BBC television, BBC Radio, all sorts of newspapers around the UK, and it becomes a big, big story. So yeah, we're the ones that are presenting that. So I think it's an important part of it. We're lucky to have still in this country, probably about five or six of us that will be considered full time tennis correspondents might do a few other bits and pieces here and there. But France are exceptional. They have a large number of traveling journalists, as you know, especially at the Grand Slams. But you know that that's still something to be celebrating. I think the fact that with all the financial pressures on media organizations and newspapers, that enough newspapers and the BBC still think there's very much a full time correspondence job in tennis. And I think Wimbledon is a big reason for that, isn't it? If we didn't have a grand slam in this country, we didn't have a history of of Wimbledon, it might be different because it's not a sport is in the DNA of British people in a way it might be in France or the Czech Republic.

Daniel Kiernan  31:34

Where does it fit in sporting terms in the UK? In your opinion?

Russell Fuller  31:39

Well, I think you've got football, obviously miles ahead of everything else. In terms of sports that are watched, then is there a sport that is clearly in second place now. And we've I've always been a big, big cricket fan. And it's still considered our traditional summer sport. But I think football is just so all dominant when you have Rugby World Cups and six nations. That's obviously a really, really big deal. In rugby union. I think tennis really does cut through with the slams, doesn't it in the way that golf does with the majors. Formula One, it really depends on the British interest and the British success levels. Now there's a lot of people that love their Formula One who watch it come what may, but there's no question says Lewis Hamilton has disappeared from the top of the podium over the last couple of years that there just doesn't seem to be as much in the media. So I think tennis holds its own really, really well. I kind of think and I probably missed that really obvious sport in that list. But I kind of think that tennis is is a is a kind of a middle ranking sport that actually regularly punches above its weight. That's what delights me is that you have so many great personalities in the sport, you don't have the stories on the court. But it just seems to be partly because it's played by men and women, sometimes in the same venues, it just to throw up lots of interesting social issues with resonance to people. So that's whether you're talking about equal prize money or going to Saudi Arabia, all these things. And tennis often seems to be a really good petri dish to see how these things might work out. And a lot of the players are happy to talk to you about these things. Some will be very defensive and show you the classic straight bat. But there are plenty of players who will engage on on these subjects, and that makes the job even more enjoyable. And

Daniel Kiernan  33:30

specifically, do you think that it's a well talked about subject? We've had Andy Murray, you know, we've had him leading, we've had the Murray Family, you know, coming from Scotland, specifically, do you feel that British tennis and Scottish tennis as has built well enough on that legacy? That's gonna then see us right over the next 15,20 years. While

Russell Fuller  33:54

We still don't have as many players in the top 100 of singles that we would like to have. And I think for a grand slam nation, we should have more, given the amount of money that's produced by the All England Club and then passed on to the LTA it's normally around about the 14 million pound mark. And you can compare the other Grand Slam nations, and you can look at players in the top 100 and the USA are obviously doing very, very well not just on the women's side now but the men's side as well. France, certainly great strength in depth, but not the Grand Slam singles champions. Australia has had a few lean years on the men's side and AGsh Barty. Retiring certainly didn't help on the women's. So look, it's not it's not that easy. It sounds like a lot of money. Some of it is badly spent no question at all about it. But at the same time, the numbers are increasing in the top 100. And I think it is always slightly hard because it's not a national obsession. Like it would be in in some countries, but we should have more shouldn't wait. We should have more singles plays in the top 100 I would have thought

Daniel Kiernan  34:58

Yeah, I think I think so. So, I found this, it's a, it's a really interesting subject, because you'll, you'll have someone that I had the performance director for Czech tennis on. And it's so culturally ingrained there, that it's almost like, you know, listening to him, it's like, you are a female, you want to have some success of the sporting nature, get your tennis racquet on, get down there. And it's, it's, it's set up in that way. You know, it's very much viewed upon as a as a route to financial gains success, you know, like, whatever it might be. Whereas I guess, tennis certainly in the UK is probably viewed a little bit more as an extracurricular activity, if you happen to live near a tennis club. You know, so culturally, I think we're certainly fighting up against an uphill battle. If for me, I'm very clear on this, it starts with competition, you know, look at Italy, what's happened to the Italian Davis Cup right now, look at Spain over the years, you know, you get the competition structure, right from, from a young age, in on, you get the right competitive opportunities, I think northern European countries have more of a challenge on that, because it becomes a more expensive sport, because of facilities. You know, I've been in Spain, 14 years, there's millions of tennis courts. And yet, there's millions in Andalucia alone, there's 360 tournaments that you can play a year, just at a local level. So once you're playing the game, and you're competing, I think in general, I think humans are quite competitive, you know, and if the prizes are big enough, then you're going to you're going to then fuel so much more, you know, you're going to feel more professional cultures, more academies, the ecosystem builds, you know, and that's the bit that, from what I understand, that seems to be a nice step that they're starting to take that the competition in the UK is taking place, I speak to Dan Evans a lot, I know, he's a big believer of that, you know, make the prize big enough, use the money as a reward, you know, and then the best coaches and the best players will rise to the top. You know, it's really not as too much more complicated than that. But I think when we look back at that period, it probably hasn't built forward as much as we would like it to. But I think when you're going against a national culture change, then it becomes very difficult to do that as well. So yeah, I don't I don't know if we have any exact dancers, but you are going to give us them Russell, because I'm putting you in position, we're going to, we're going to roleplay and you are the CEO of British tennis. So congratulations on the new role,

Russell Fuller  37:55

A job I've always aspired to your your your

Daniel Kiernan  37:58

Your three, your three key areas and strategy of your three points strategy that you would bring in to improve and make British tennis or more sustainable country for producing top 100 players?

Russell Fuller  38:14

Well, I think one would be an attempt to get it into schools on a far more consistent basis. Because as we know, there have been programs over the last few years. But it's just not something that there is room for in the curriculum, now I'm setting myself a sort of target that I'm probably almost certainly going to fail out, which is not very good when you start a new job, or you're doing an appraisal, but I think you need to get them as young as possible. The other thing would be something that has been done recently, and it touches on what you were saying just now about having more tournaments. But that's certainly been the mantra of Scott Lloyd and the current regime that we need to have many more tournaments at ITF, and they've got to go and earn their money on the road. But it we'll see, we'll see. I think the Italian model is a good example, isn't it? They they really did invest in so many tournaments. And they've had this amazing run of players coming through. So that would be two things. The third thing, free stuff. I'm not sure that really helps actually does if you give everybody a free tennis racket. Everyone gets a cord in their own back garden. That will be a nice thought, wouldn't it if people have got back gardens big enough? I'll have to give a third one a bit more thought.

Daniel Kiernan  39:26

Yeah. But it's interesting, isn't it? And I think there are good points. Mark the point I'd just like to make wrestlers. For me competition. Yes, from ITF level challenge a level above. But it starts way before that. For me, it's about like, if you if you enter, I hear horror stories, that it's really challenging to get into tournaments. Now, if you can't get into a tournament as an eight year old, a nine year old or 10 year old, 11 year old, that's going to turn you off the sport like that we're done with On and off, you know, it has to be easily accessible. Not a lot of travel even from your local area. And that's why I say about Andalucia 360 tournaments in our area, you know, our, the players at the Academy don't have to go anywhere. And if I, if I go back to my junior days I was I'm Juan Carlos Ferrero 1980 He won Le Petit us in 1994, the under 14, unofficial World Championship in singles. And we didn't see him for four years, we were like, where is he. And then he got a wildcard into Junior, French Open, and he won that as well. And what now I know what he was doing is he was just playing all of the various circuits that you have within Spain, you know, and that's what he was doing. And he was, he was able to just commit to his craft, in that environment granted with with a culture in Spain that's highly competitive. You know, Rafa really does live and breathe, what the Spanish tennis player is, you know, and that's what's kind of passed, passed on amongst the ages. But unless you have those opportunities at a younger age, and it's easy for parents, and for players to play the game, and it's accessible to compete, then you're just not going to get locked in and have that passion for the sport. You know, once the passion is in there. I'm a quite a big believer in this way people find their way. You know, once once, once you're locked into something with with such a strong passion, you'll you'll fight you'll find your way through the sport, as Dan Evans has, as Andy Murray has, as as various British players have done the that the hearts been beating pretty fast for, for the sport of tennis. And I think that's, that's the bit for me, that needs to needs to be found I'm conscious of your time. And I need to talk to you about a couple of things for myself, whether you listening care or not. I do. And I have to I have to ask and it's it's, it's the obvious questions, but I can't have you on and not asking you about your favorite ever sporting moment than that you've commented on so not specifically to tennis, you've been to five Olympic Games, you've got an incredible experience in many sports. So what's the real standout sporting memory?

Russell Fuller  42:21

Well, I can maybe give you two answers, one as a presenter, and one as a commentator. And I think because most of my commentary, the overwhelming commentary that I've done has been in tennis even though I've got very fond memories of commentating on the Ryder Cup at the K club in Dublin, and making a rare test match Special Appearance describing on One Day International between England and India in Dharamshala, which is in the foot hills of the Himalayas with the Dalai Lama's residence just around the corner. That that was a very, very exciting thing to look back on. But I think in tennis, see Andy Murray winning Wimbledon, you're talking about the actual moment, because I was commentating at the at the end of that, then that was obviously a huge, huge moment. But it wasn't the most exhilarating moment because we knew what was coming. It wasn't quite like 2013 and he was willing that third set tie break quite easily from memory. I mean, I think a couple of Australian Open finals recently, I mean, Rafa Nadal Against Daniel Medvedev. And then of course, the final before that Nadal Against Federer were simply extraordinary. And also, from a female perspective, really loved commentating on Caroline was the actually against Simona Hallett because it was just such an amazing final that went on and on. So those are the matches that immediately come to mind. And then as a presenter, it was probably the 2000 Sydney Olympics because I was really genuinely quite young. Then there's the first Olympics I had done, and I was presenting to the World Service. And we were in the Athletic Stadium every single night. And the night that Cathy Freeman won the 400 meters incredible. And Mike Costello, who's now made his name in the world of boxing, but has also done many, many years as an athletics commentator. He was the World Service commentator, he was along side me and I, I briefly took my headphones off to hear the crowd. And the noise is she powered down that final bend but was listening to make the rest of the time and I think the line he used was, she has the wind of Australia at her back. And the pressure on her as an Aboriginal woman was just so intense. The nation was desperate for her to win and to be in that stadium. 120,000 people to witness that was just absolutely phenomenal.

Daniel Kiernan  44:33

Amazing, and to have these memories forever, you know what, what a privilege, you know that exactly? You know really what, what, what, what an unbelievable privilege and you'll be in Paris next year.

Russell Fuller  44:47

I won't actually know my run of Olympic Games as has come to an end. I'm maybe covering it remotely, but unfortunately, we don't want to get into cutbacks, do we? But ultimately, there's less money around to do lots of different things. And we are sending as an organization, fewer people to Olympic games now. And so I'm not going to be in Paris, sadly. And I think I've just about come to terms with it. I missed, I missed Tokyo as well, which probably wasn't a bad thing, given that the conditions for working in when we're not particularly pleasant with all the pandemic rules in place, but I did. Sydney, I did Athens, which again, was an absolute riot, we had a brilliant time there, Beijing, London, and Rio. So I had a really, really good run. And I hope I can go to another few in the future. But if that's it, if my runs toss at Fiverr, I would have signed for that at the start.

Daniel Kiernan  45:40

And moving into the future. And the future of tennis, you know, we were in a place we've touched on it. We both were fortunate enough to be at the US Open this year, and people were paying $250 A ticket, Labor Day weekend, and getting from one part to another part of the park was almost impossible at times, you know, when people were coming off Arthur Ashe. But that's incredible. That's what we want for our sport. But we we do have a fractured sport in lots of ways. You know, we have we have a sport where there's seven governing bodies. You know, I think getting them all on to one side when they all have their own varying degrees of of importance, you know, is an incredibly difficult thing. You know, at some point does that bubble burst with now and I haven't had a chance to read it yet, because it's just gone out, Russell, but I know that you've just put out a an article on the BBC website on Saudi Arabia, who if we look at golf, you know, Saudi Arabia is coming to golf, they're coming everywhere they're into football, it was a matter of time before they made their move into tennis as well. There's been a lot of discussions about the WTA jumping in for the WTA finals, they didn't quite get their ducks in order to be able to do that this year. But as you said, that is an imminent move. So what is the future of tennis? Where does Saudi Arabia fit into that? Where do we now stand as a sport on the moral grounds of going into bed with somebody like Saudi Arabia? And what have we got to look forward to over the next few years?

Russell Fuller  47:23

Yeah, well, I think Saudi Arabia has become a regular stock off on the tour, the ATP, and Saudi Arabia, very keen to have more tournaments. In the kingdom, a Master Series event would be the obvious first step now, the fact that the possibility of creating a 10th license for a Saudi Arabian masters that could go in the first week of the year, went down like a cup of cold sick with tennis, Australia and the other grand slams as well, because that would have decimated the build up to the Australian Open, at least from a male point of view and put paid to the United cup. But I think probably ultimately, they will be created a 10th license, and they will find a slot in the calendar for Saudi Arabia to come on board. It looks like the WTA are going to sign that agreement with Saudi Arabia in the next few weeks for the WTA finals, I think they'll be quite happy with that. As a country, the interview I did was with the female president of the Federation, actually a woman by the name of a reach owl router, Garni. And I did ask her whether if you don't get the events you want, whether you would launch a rival tour, a la LIV Golf, and she didn't completely rule it out. But she said, No, I think we have a partnership. Now with the ATP we are bidding for events we are, we are very positive. And she didn't think it would come to that. So it may well be that the tours continue in a similar sort of vein, there's talk at the moment, as you know about everything coming under one roof. And there would be a super tour for the grand slams, and 10 or 12 of the biggest tour events that will take a lot of organization, and a lot of sorting out and if that does happen, I think it's several years down the road. What what I would like to see personally, Dan is tolerance with a bit more variety. I love the Grand Slams as they are, you can have a debate about whether five sets in the men's is sustainable. But I would just like to see tournaments, particularly those 250s and five hundreds to experiment a little bit more with the scoring system. I agree. Do a random draw for those indoor tournaments at the end of the year, and FA Cup style draw. I know players won't like it. And tournament promoters won't like it if their top two draws come up against each other in the first round. But try and draw a bit more attention to some of these events and matches have got to get quicker because even those of us that love the sport, I mean, I'm sometimes sitting at a Grand Slam, second or third round. We're perhaps commentating on the monitor, as it's on one of the outside courts from our commentary box on the show court and the men's match and they split the first couple of sets and your heart sinks because you But you've got another three hours to go potentially. And I'm paid to do it, and I'm there. But how can people really engage with the sport which even ATP and WTA level is constantly serving up matches of three hours, three hours, 15, even three hours 35

Daniel Kiernan  50:15

I have to delve a little bit more into the Saudi Saudi situation, and I find it hard to believe that they will be satisfied. Just having a tournament on the tour. You know, that seems okay, it's a start of a partnership. But they seem like the sort in everything that they're putting their hands to that, that they want to have control. Now, LIV Golf has happened when live golf happened, all of a sudden, the PGA Tour found 500 million out of out of nowhere, and started to actually be innovative in terms of how they run the tour. So I don't think monopolies are the way forward and and the ATP and the WTA tend to have that there's the PTPA, that none of us really know quite what's happening there. They've made a little bit of noise. I for one thought that maybe the PTPA would be the ones having the conversation, conversations with Saudi to try and go against the monopolies that are currently in place in tennis. Now, if that was to happen, and there was to be rivaled to us, do you think that would be a good thing, longer term or a bad thing for the sport of tennis?

Russell Fuller  51:31

I think it would be a bad thing. It may not be as spectacularly caustic, as it was in the game of golf. But I think it would be a bad thing. I mean, I know you can argue competition is a is a good thing. Do I think Saudi Arabia will do it? I'm I'm not I genuinely don't think that that is their their prime concern at the moment. I do also wonder, I mean, LIV Golf. Yeah, it's made a lot of people very, very wealthy, it certainly got a lot of attention. But they want to stage a lot of these events, because they want to put their country in a positive light. They want to attract people to come to Saudi Arabia, for tourism. And I think they genuinely also want to develop the sports in these countries, because they've got a very, very young population in Saudi Arabia, and very high percentage are under the age of 30. And they want people to be engaging in healthy activities. And it's quite negative, wasn't it? Saudi Arabia has not come out of LIV Golf, especially well, now you can say a lot other people haven't either. But I don't think they really would be wanting to pick another major fight with a global sporting body. If they don't get their way. And they don't get anything, which I think is unlikely anyway, then maybe a reach out move to Oregon he wouldn't rule it out. But I think, I think I think the plan is, I think the way everybody would like it to be the ATP, the WTA, the ITF. And the Saudis is very much a partnership. And the issue probably has been up until now that the tours particularly the WTA, were not happy to play in Saudi Arabia, they thought it was toxic for them. But the ATP have hurdle that bridge without really any sign of angst. The WTA are moving that way, even though they've still got a lot of issues to sort out such as, what sort of guarantees do they get for gay players who are going to qualify for the end of the year finals, particularly those in same sex relationships? Will they be assured about their safety, because even though the rules on homosexuality are not always particularly well codified, and Sharia law is used, sometimes in certain cases, because it's so uncertain, clearly increases worry in people's minds. And you can understand why people who are in same sex relationships would have massive reservations about going to Saudi

Daniel Kiernan  53:58

And from a moral standpoint of somebody who makes the majority of their living from the sport of tennis. How would you personally feel about going into sailing the commentating and it being a big part of the sport that brings your brinjal ultimately your wage and your livelihood?

Russell Fuller  54:17

Yeah, it's the BBC asked me to go to cover quite possibly next year's WTA finals in Riyadh or wherever it might be, then I would go. If in the past, I had been asked to go and perhaps commentate on an exhibition as a freelancer, I personally wouldn't have done now everyone's got to earn their money. So I'm not casting aspersions on people who've done things like that because they needed the money or whatever it might be. But personally, but if I go back a few years, then I wouldn't have taken that opportunity.

Daniel Kiernan  54:55

And why why the change? Why the change now? Well,

Russell Fuller  54:58

I think it's different because Because in a sense, I was going, I'd be going in this theoretical example, I'd be going to commentate on an exhibition. And it was purely about financial gain for me. Whereas, if I'm asked by the BBC, it doesn't need to be the BBC, any employer to go and cover it from a news angle, you're doing your job, you are reporting on this event for other people. So I think it's different.

Daniel Kiernan  55:23

And in terms of, I guess, we talked off air about this, like, you can see, I'm a big Newcastle United fan, you know, where where is that moral? Line? I guess, you know, and the same for players the same for so many people that are involved? Obviously, we saw it with the World Cup going to Qatar as well, you know, is it that everyone almost is just turning a blind eye. And that's what we're carrying on in the world. And ultimately, the Saudis get what they want, they get their name to start to be cleaned up a little bit. And, you know, we all just kind of carry on, where does that line fall? Or how do we use this as an opportunity to try and improve standards and improve the way that life is in countries like Saudi?

Russell Fuller  56:12

No, exactly. And it's very hard to know, I think, pretty much everybody would accept that I have a long conversation with Human Rights Watch for this piece that I did for the BBC website, and for Five Live, and that they they would admit that there have been some very valuable reforms, especially for women's rights in Saudi Arabia in the last few years. But they would also argue, we haven't gone they haven't gone nearly far enough. So this is your question, isn't it really? Is it too soon? Or do We reward the progress the country has made, I also spoke to Martina Navratilova and did an interview with her. And she's very much in the too soon camp, she was saying that she needs to see more meaningful reform before a sport like tennis should go and she thinks that the WTA is selling its soul. If it goes to Saudi Arabia, we know that the money would come in very, very handy, they lost $31 million in their last two accounting periods. So they need a cash injection. But for her, it's a price that is just not worth paying.

Daniel Kiernan  57:21

It's a conversation that could go on and on Russell, anybody that wants to, to look into those articles, and you know, I know, Russell, you spent a lot of time bringing them together, we will make sure that they are in the show notes, guys. So you know, you can click into that, you know, it is a it is a it is a hot topic. It's it's a very emotional topic. And but it's also the reality of what we have to get our heads around as an industry. And you know, I can't help thinking even as we're speaking about it, and maybe I'm living in a dream world on this, but there's maybe some opportunity there, as well as specifically with the WTA, you know, on the fact that it is the biggest female sport in the world, you know, when we think of the big stars, the female stars of the last 20 years, there's a potential opportunity there to make a real difference, you know, not just going in there to take the money, but to make a real difference for human rights for for gay rights for many different moral issues that we have going on there. Russell, you're, you're a star for coming on? I can't let you go without the very quick fire round, it can be as quick or as long as you want. But no, I

Russell Fuller  58:33

Enjoy. I always enjoyed this round. So I was looking forward to this part. Are you ready? I'm ready.

Daniel Kiernan  58:38

Three sets or five?

Russell Fuller  58:44

Is it a quick fire round? Well, I'm increasingly moving towards three.

Daniel Kiernan  58:50

But we wouldn't get those matches.

Russell Fuller  58:52

Exactly. I mean, it's not an answer, I'm completely convinced about that tell you what I would say from now to expand is that I do think that at some point in the next 25 years, we'll have best of three sets of grand slams. And I actually quite liked the idea of maybe of the first week being best of three sets. And then from the fourth round, or the quarterfinals onwards, five sets and then you could also play the women over five sets as well at that stage. So I think that's the way I would go but generally, less is more tennis is lasting far too long. But you're right. In all honesty, I would hate to see the end of five set matches, at least in the second week of a slam

Daniel Kiernan  59:32

Forehand or backhand.

Russell Fuller  59:34

Backhand.

Daniel Kiernan  59:35

Serve or Return.

Russell Fuller  59:38

Return

Daniel Kiernan  59:39

Your favorite slam.

Russell Fuller  59:42

I agonize over this question. I really do. My favorite I still haven't got an answer genuinely haven't got an answer. I always say to people, it's like choosing between my children, which is my favorite, because Wimbledon is obviously really really special. I did a French degree and I'm a Francophile. I love Paris in the spring. In time, a lot of people don't like the US Open, but I love the buzzer. I love that. And who could not want to go to Australia in January? So I mean, this sounds like I'm sitting on the fence, but that is genuinely from the heart. I really do not have a favorite slam. I love them all.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:16

And how lucky are we to have that as well? Yeah. It's

Russell Fuller  1:00:19

not just a politician's answer that is honest, honestly, I have not quite had sleepless nights trying to work out the answer to that question, but I genuinely love all of them. They are the most amazing events to be part of. No

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:32

No fence to sit on here, Roger or Rafa.

Russell Fuller  1:00:36

Rafa,

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:37

Serena or Venus

Russell Fuller  1:00:41

Serena?

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:42

Should we have let chords or not?

Russell Fuller  1:00:46

No.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:47

Doubles or singles?

Russell Fuller  1:00:51

Singles? Should

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:52

there be a medical timeout or not?

Russell Fuller  1:00:56

Yes, I think there has to be. But tighter controls, I'm just thinking about medical emergencies, I don't think you could possibly just expect people to continue if they were putting their health at risk.

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:05

No, but if their health is at risk, they maybe shouldn't be playing the match. So maybe they could just follow the record through What does control the controllables mean to you.

Russell Fuller  1:01:17

It does mean to do the basics, look after the things that I can do. So in a commentary perspective, it is about making sure that you've done your prep for the big matches your commentary notes, probably more than you actually need. It's about trying to get good night's sleep the night before if you possibly can, making sure you've had a proper meal before you go into the commentary box. Doing a few tongue twisters before going on to the air, and just telling yourself to concentrate and stay focused on the core. And those are things that I will regularly do doesn't mean things always go to plan does it but it certainly gives me more confidence and it makes me more relaxed going into those big matches.

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:04

I absolutely love that answer. And if we had more time, I wanted to ask you about your preparation, you know, kind of your life. But yeah, so that what is that? You know, what, what is the I'm a big one on routine a big on this, you know, making sure you're preparing right to perform, you know, and that's in my field as a tennis coach that's to perform on the tennis court. But in various fields, it's about being ready to perform in what you do. So how does your How does your preparation look for that?

Russell Fuller  1:02:37

Well, I'm not really a creature of routine at all, but I will make sure let's say we're commentating on a big grand slam match. Because earlier in the fortnight you're never quite sure which match you're going to commentate on. And you're probably scribbling a few notes. But when it's a big set piece of match that you know, we're doing full commentary on them. And it fits for Grand Slam final, then I might need an hour and a half, even two hours to try and find that time to just quite methodically going through the notes. And just making sure that I've got certain stats that I need talking points that you might think you want to throw in. So you can engage a summarizer especially if they're feeling a bit reluctant to talk, which isn't really the case with the people that we work with. And then everything else that I mentioned it can be in it can be in any order. And I say having a good night's sleep. Yeah, I mean, I would. I'm too old now to go out and have a heavy night night for a grand slam semi final a Grand Slam final. I wouldn't enjoy you can probably do that your 20s or 30s. But I wouldn't enjoy doing that. Because I do like to have a clear head but no, I'm not particularly. I'm not particularly anal about it. I don't care what what I eat, I just need to eat properly, preferably healthily to make sure that I've done all of those things.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:52

What's your favorite control the controllables episode? There's a bit of assumption here that you've listened to. But well, it was in there. And the beauty of having having an editor is it can be cut out. So

Russell Fuller  1:04:08

Well. I think I have to say diplomatically the most recent one I heard which was the Andy Murray edition.

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:13

And I think anyone that hasn't heard that yet, get yourself to Episode 200 Your favorite quote

Russell Fuller  1:04:23

I'm not really a Stefanos Tsitsipas. I don't tend to chuck these quotes out. My favorite quotes goodness me shame on me. I don't have one who's

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:32

gonna win the Australian Open 2020 for men and women's singles titles

Russell Fuller  1:04:38

right that's a very good question. It's very hard to bet against Novak I'm gonna go Novak one more time for the Australian Open may possibly be the last time I'm gonna give it one more title and for the women Hmm. As ever, it's very very difficult to call I think eagerly on tech is going to crap Melbourne at some point. Yeah, I reckon she's gonna crack In 2020, for

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:01

The tournament of the favorite,

Russell Fuller  1:05:04

Yeah, dull answers, really, I mean, what intrigues me about next year is how well are in a Sabalenka plays after the success, and she played a lot of matches, didn't she and she was got to at least the semi finals of every Grand Slam. And I just wonder if there'll be a little bit of a period where she's just not quite firing on all cylinders, and maybe not quite as fresh as she would like to be, then again, you definitely have her on your fairly short list of potential champions, wouldn't you in Melbourne?

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:31

Well, you would you would you just I just think there's, as we saw a Coco Gauff in the final of US Open, you can vary the game up against her and take her out of her rhythm. And I think that under under the height of pressure is as lead and we've seen it quite a bit, I don't like to use the terminology choking. But she kind of has one way or the highway of playing. And you know, sometimes in those, those big moments, and especially over seven matches, there is a moment where you've got to dig a little bit deeper than just playing one way or the highway. And that's where I think she'll continue to get a little bit caught out. And the other interesting one, obviously, on the men's side is Jannik Sinner, you know, is is is he gonna be able to bring, you know, the form that he's had the last few weeks, but I think it's, it's going to be an exciting 2024. That's for sure. So Davis Cup old format or new.

Russell Fuller  1:06:27

I'm going to say new, because I do think that a lot of people have selective memories. It wasn't quite dying on its feet, but it was really, really struggling. And actually, I do think, even though I do miss those classic Home and Away ties, and those final stages over three days, if you knew you were going to be there for the fans, that was brilliant to know that you are going to get in the case of Great Britain in 2015. But if you look at both of them, I think given that you've got a bit of a hybrid competition now with the Home and Away round in in February, that group stage needs to move around a bit more to give more countries a chance to host but at least four countries are at home. And then yes, it is very much a neutral venue unless you're Spain in Malaga. But I think probably

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:12

Or Britain. Yeah.

Russell Fuller  1:07:17

Yeah, no, but I think probably if you if you look at what both formats have to offer, and remember how it was in the years leading up to 2018 I think you could probably argue now that there's actually a few more plus points in the modern format, Hopman

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:33

Cup or United cup

Russell Fuller  1:07:39

Wow, okay, I've got a good friend if he's listening to this, the answer is united cup. Yeah, um, you know what, the heartland cup I think I never went to the Hopman cup. And if I'm completely honest, when I was first starting out on the World Service, doing sports bulletins, and presenting sports well to the early noughties, I always used to get really, really exasperated because I felt that we were a little bit stuck in our ways with some of the events that we would cover. So we do too much horse racing and too much Rugby League, which I thought was never quite what the international audience was looking for surely, Snooker was cropping up too often, that's fine for the Brits, but it's not an audience of expats. And one of the other ones that we always used to pay to cover, not our own reporter but a freelancer on site was the heartland cup. I always thought this is an exhibition. There are other more important tournaments we could be spending our money on. So having confessed that I'm going to have to go United car. But it was a lot of fun, wasn't it? A lot of people have told me it was

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:40

Yeah, well, I can't I never had the privilege to go. When I look back, as you were talking, I was thinking there's like two or three moments stick out like Federer played against Serena, you know, kind of brought those interesting storylines. Yeah. Whether it did on a consistent basis. I don't know. You know, I was just, I was just taking the headline that came through every now and then I think from the heartland cup. What's one rule change that you would have in tennis?

Russell Fuller  1:09:09

I would have a shot club team first and second serve? And

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:14

who should our next guest be? On control the controllables?

Russell Fuller  1:09:18

This is the part where you want me to suggest the baton,

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:22

the baton, the baton gets passed,

Russell Fuller  1:09:25

it needs to be somebody, I guess logically needs to be somebody within broadcasting, doesn't it? So I mean, tell me if you've had them on before, but if you had Sue Barker on before? No. If not, I could perhaps give you one of the summarizes that we worked with over the years, and we work closely with the likes of Pat Cash. And Marion Bartoli. To look at my contact book, who's the most famous person I've gotten my contest

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:52

Sue Barker, or Martina Navratilova would be incredible. What it is we are incredible. We need more female hills, um, control the controllables. We are trying. Absolutely. Pat Cash was on a few weeks ago, Pat was Pat was fantastic. Sue Barker for my wife, she would just that would be her. That would be her Andy Murray. You know, Barker's show, I

Russell Fuller  1:10:16

Start with sue them.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:17

Let's start with Sue Russel. And that way you are likely to approach her. And I will do that for you. You're a good man, thank you so much for your time. It's been brilliant. And thank you also for all of all of the amazing words that we've heard over the years the the atmosphere that you've created for us, it's been an absolute pleasure. So well done and keep up the great work. Thanks, Russell. Well, it's

Russell Fuller  1:10:42

really nice you to say so thanks, Dan. I've done it for 10 years now. So here's to another 10.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:47

And now from one broadcast journalist to another Vicki, Vicki next to me as as always, not as always, but I it is always great when we're able to bring Vicki to the show. And this one was a good one for you would be able to compare notes, broadcasting styles.

Victoria Kiernan  1:11:08

And I've been so excited to listen to this one. I really have I'm still getting over the Sue Barker comment as well at the at the end. That's if I thought I was looking forward to Russell Fuller sorry, Russell. So is like another level she's like my mic. Right up there with one of my dream guests for the for the show, will

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:26

Would be like me having Alan Shearer on the show, Vicki having Sue Barker on the show. So let's see, it's not proving that easy sometimes to get the next guests on, even though these, these very generous names have been put forward. But we will have a little bit of time over Christmas where we can start plotting for 2024

Victoria Kiernan  1:11:49

The only thing was listening to that I had so many like journalist related questions that I wanted to ask us. Ask him this. Ask him that. I'll have to beat you saw him, didn't you? Not long after you spoke? Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:01

Well, all bit bizarre really been. But I have to say a big thank you to Stuart Fraser, who writes for The Times, and is the chairman of the British tennis journalist Association. And I got a very kind invite. And yeah, it felt a bit odd for a tennis coach to be there on that side. But a big thank you to Stuart and the and all the guests in it had a nice little chat with Russell. It was nice to see Jonathan overend as well, a former guest on the show, and also make a few more little connections. So watch out for some more guests that might be coming your way in 2024. So but no, that was that that was a nice experience for me to have at the All England Club Wimbledon last week. And also just to see all the all the hard work that goes in, we know that, you know, via social media via the TV, we've now got the Big Sky TV deal that's happened. The broadsheet newspapers, there's many ways that we get the sport out there. And they're incredibly important people in the world of tennis, to keep the tennis industry alive, to keep it relevant and fighting against many, many other sports and many other interests in the world. So I was delighted to be a part of that and meet so many great people and a big well done to everybody. And thank you, you know, gratitude to everybody that continues to get the great word of tennis spread out around not just great bread and butter, but also the rest of the world.

Victoria Kiernan  1:13:33

And when you think about tennis commentary now it's impossible not to think about Russell fillo you know, he's established himself as a real household name for for everyone in tennis. And he does an amazing job he mentioned at the end about preparation and how he gets ready for a match doesn't hear if he won't remember but I worked with him at Radio five, I've got it's got to be 20 years ago now. I was just starting out of uni and I remember it well. During the fight, where can we up at five o'clock in the morning to come and five in the evening till five in the morning, three, three days a week. Those are fun shifts. But Russell would sometimes come in and do some of the presenting shifts on the up all night program. And yeah, he his preparation was spot on out of all the presenters that I was around who was doing the shows, he was the one with his head down. He'd be asking the questions he wouldn't be kind of engaging another like chit chat around him he just had his head down preparing to go on air and that was that was something that's like a clear memory for me of of that time and you know, hard work pays off. Look, look where he is now. Like right at the top of the top of the sport, you know, on prime time television with millions of people listening to his every word. It's awesome.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:52

And it's such it's such a nice story you share actually because I think it's it's often we don't get that level. have insight, you know, we think that someone's almost just locked out into that position. And of course, you in any in any industry, you get these extreme talents in, in broadcasting and journalism in, in commentary of tennis, you sometimes get those positions purely because while I say purely, you've won grand slams, or you're a big, big name, but to be the real expert, the one that's able to bring it all together. And when I say expert, not expert in tennis, but experts in in commentary and presenting, you know, there's such a skill to it. And it's no surprise to hear that that's taken years and years and years to perfect his craft. And it actually reminds me as you were talking there, Vicki, it was, I was thinking of Jannik Sinner, who's obviously had an amazing end to the year. And I remember seeing him in Tunisia quite a few years ago, and I already have four or five years ago. And again, he was the one on the court all the time doing the boring things, you know, day in, day out, you know, all of a sudden, we see him smacking Djokovic off the court. But that hasn't just happened. You know, that's, that's something that we all need to learn. And whatever we do, you know, there will feel like there's hard days, but you keep your head down, you keep compounding those habits. And as with Russell, we get to see, you know, there's then rewards that will come come your way, and you will get a return on that investment. And I think that's a it's a lovely story to hear that.

Victoria Kiernan  1:16:36

I would also say he is an expert in tennis, though. 100%. His the authority that he has to talk about the game is huge. He's there all the big events, he's talking to the players, he's talking to the biggest people in the sport. I

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:50

would agree with I think the point I was making was when you commentator you've got the the expert commentator, who is, who is I don't know what the right word is that they use. And then you've got the expert analyst. Yeah. And that's not the role he plays. I think the expert analyst is sometimes the easy role as a commentator, especially on radio, you know, you're just kind of saying what you see a little bit and bringing your own insight to it. But that descriptive way of bringing something alive, painting the picture to the listener, and it was interesting, he said he that wasn't something that came natural to him, and wasn't something that actually in that he started his journey out doing. So I'm certainly not saying he's not an expert in Tennessee's he's earned that right, and coming from it for coming from a different lens. But a big thank you to Russell for for coming on, and for offering Sue Barker next and saying that's just for starters. So, you know, we now have we'll have Russell Fuller on speed dial as we as we continue to try and get all of these amazing guests coming your way and a one for you to look out for. And we'd love some feedback. How are you finding the podcast shorts? The the new initiative that we've brought forward, you know, giving an opportunity for you to listen to some of our favorite pieces of the last three and a half years. And we want to share that with you. And we have Sir Andy Murray, we've clipped a shot from Andy Murray, who was our episode 200 a few weeks ago, and I'm sure you're gonna love that as well. And then we might have one more special episode to come your way before we see the end of 2023 and what a year that has been. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we all Control the Controllables