#177: Eric Butorac - Cultivating a love of Tennis

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 177, of Control the Controllables. And as we die down from the US Open and Laver Cup, we thought Who can we get on? But somebody who stood shoulder to shoulder with all of the players at the US Open as the player liaison manager of the USTA, Eric Butorac,

Eric Butorac  00:38

You know, my wife who play college tennis often says, you know, you gotta maybe fix his forehand or what do you think about the backhand so flat, you know, and I'm like, No, he just needs to love the sport. Like, that's all he needs. At this age he's eight, I think, at least in the world that I live in the greater New York City area, there's this real pressure to like, learn and achieve and parents are taking too many lessons when it's like, if you can just plant that joy, that passion that love and the kid later on down the road, they can get really, really good.

Daniel Kiernan  01:10

And Eric's had a had a life of tennis as you're going to hear in his story from division three college in America. That mean if you go to Division Three, college, surely that means you're giving up. But no, he went there. And he ended up being a Grand Slam finalist. He ended up being number 17 in the world, on the ATP. In doubles, he was 50% of the famous partnership Stretch and Booty. And stretch, as many of you Brits will know, is Jamie Murray, the brother of Andy Murray. That was his nickname and Eric Butarac was booty, who was the who was the second part of that other 50 who was the other 50% of that partnership. They had a fantastic career together. Eric then went on played with many different players spent eight years on the ATP board moved as he went into a different part of tennis, you're gonna find out he's played many different roles. He's been tournament director at the Masters Series event in Cincinnati, and plays a big role alongside the players and helping them and in our player, liaison manager, you have to have the respect. You know, it's not easy to be looking after all of these males, females, their demands, their teams, the superstars, and we talked through it all, you know, we hear what it was like taking Serena Williams and everything that went into creating the show. That was the last dance for Serena, this this year's US Open. I love this conversation. He speaks clearly, he's got such great philosophies, many that I completely believe in myself. I'm sure you're going to take a lot from this. So sit back, relax, enjoy. And here is Eric Butarac. So Eric Butarac a big welcome to Control the Controllables how're you doing?

Eric Butorac  03:17

I'm doing great Dan. Thanks for having me on.

Daniel Kiernan  03:19

And it's a pleasure to it really is a pleasure to have you on and to those listening this is this is Booty who people will know in Britain for sure as Jamie Murray I think it was Stretch and Buty was that the that was the combo that Jamie Murray and Butarac link all of those years ago and I'm excited I just said they're off air you know, I've I've used your the basics of your story to lots of players over the years as an inspiration of you know, what can be achieved in this sport. And I'm excited to hear a bit more of it you know from your rise as a junior to division three college player to then top 10 player in the world top 20 player in the world to then to then somebody who has is working in such a high level at the USDA now tournament director of the Masters 1000 events. So there's lots to get into Eric. But I think I think the starting point, the whole tennis world. We've just about dried our eyes after the tears that Laver Cup of the Roger Federer and also Rafael Nadal put us through. So I have to start there. Give us give us your thoughts on Roger Federer.

Eric Butorac  04:24

Roger's, a special guy. I feel incredibly lucky to be one of the many as you saw the photos popping up right as he retired who got to know him most closely because I got to work on the player council for eight years. Federer was president for six of those I was vice president underneath him for a couple of those years. So I got to know him really well. And again, really, really lucky and honored to you know, get to know such a legend. People always ask me, you know, you know, what's he like Is he is he is nice and kind of a person, you know, as he appears to be, you know, truth is he's he's probably better. He's, he's, you've probably heard players say he's someone who comes into the locker room. And there's sort of an aura around him, right. It's almost like a glow. There's a few people that have this, I think Serena had it for me, Andre Agassi also had people that almost appear like a caricature of themselves. But treated everyone equally and treated at you know, greeted everyone was kind to everyone, the thing I say that I recognize most about him and try to use this in my own life is that when He speaks to you, you feel like you're the only person in the room. And for a guy who has that sort of kind of power, and that many things going on in his life. For all the conversations we've had, and my wife's gotten to know him, and my mother's met him, and, you know, he never looks at his phone, he never looks like he never acts like he has somewhere to be. And it's an incredibly sort of powerful quality that he has. And I've tried to use that in my own life, where there's times where I feel like, maybe at the US Open, and I'm rushing to get somewhere or rushing through a conversation, or even kind of multitasking, and I really want to stop myself. And I'm like, if a guy, you know, this big, and this big in stature can can treat people that way, I can surely do the same. And that sort of one thing that I'd always thought was was really, really special. And I think it almost comes from a place. A good friend, Justin Gimble. Stop said this, that, that he's aware of how big he is. And he's aware of that, like when you get to spend time with them, it's it's going to be sort of like a life moment for you. And it's true in the case of my mom or my wife, or many other people who've gotten to meet him. And he really embraces that and treats the moment to be as important as it is. And so maybe maybe it may be a different sort of anecdote, anecdote than you would have expected, but just a really special quality of what a great human he is.

Daniel Kiernan  06:57

When you have that quality. It ends up being what everyone feels about you, you know. So. So we did, we did a Roger Federer, retirement tribute kind of special last week. And I spoke to about six or 7 ex players, current players, journalists, even we had a superfan on there. And we shared stories, and I have a couple of personal stories from Roger when I was a junior, and also when I was being a coach at Grand Slams. And I think pretty much everyone who's met him said the same. And, and that's, that's the and that's a very small sample size we're talking about, you know, but the sample size came out of pretty much 100% of people that had met him had that same feeling. So I think that came through loud and clear. And the other legend too. I don't know if you can give us any insight, you know, player relations officer, Director of player relations at the USDA, US Open when Serena did she announced her retirement didn't she announced her retirement? It kind of feels we were unable to we gave it there was some send off. But it was unable to fully give that send off? Because we're not quite sure if it is a send off.

Eric Butorac  08:10

Yeah, that was certainly an exciting summer for us. Right. And it started even with the western and southern open, you know, we were we were I think two weeks out from the tournament there. And you know, I was driving to work and in Cincinnati, and all of a sudden I get there and my phone's just blowing up. And you know, the Vogue article had released and her team had let us know, at the same moment that she was planning to come and play the Western Southern Open. So of course, ticket sales, you know, went through the roof. And that was that was great. But it's also there's a lot of stress and planning that goes around that to make sure that you treat the moment right. I think we saw in Cincinnati, you know, she played Emma and didn't look that good on court, I think everyone was quite worried going to the US Open that she was going to lose first round. Of course from the USDA side, you know, we had everything planned to go that night and ultimately decided that we were going to treat that moment that first night as the opening night would really be the time to recognize her. And I remember when that decision was made, I kind of thought oh, I don't know really we don't want to save it till she you know, maybe she she loses or plays her final match but you never quite know that final match is going to go and everything was prepared and everyone was in the building that night and it turned out to be really special. That was I got to see the whole ceremony it was a very powerful night to be in the building. And then I think how it went was that was actually really great right she she then beat the number two player in the world of course then expectations go through the roof right we've all we all went from thinking she could lose her first round to then everyone thinking she's gonna win the tournament, you know, within a span of 48 hours

Daniel Kiernan  09:38

that's tennis and that's what we do

Eric Butorac  09:41

it is but then even when she lost you know she went down fighting right i sat courtside for that final game and watching her save all these match points. And it was just sort of that's that's what she is right. And she's she's a fighter and you know, her story of it's been told so many Times and with the movie coming out last year. She fought to get there. And she fought to be the final final point. And that was that was really special. Seeing some people would maybe like to see her go on deeper in the event. But I also think that the way it played out, allowed the US Open to sort of be the official changing of the guard event. And then with Roger retiring right after the event, it really was and then with the guy who everyone has sort of earmarked as the next, you know, guy to take over the throne winning his first slam, and going to number one, so I think we just at least in America, and I haven't seen the worldwide numbers yet. But the eyeballs it was the most watched match ever on ESPN. It was the you know, the ratings were higher than ever. But then what it did is once once you lost on Friday, then people started watching Coco Gauff, people were talking about Nick Kyrgios then people are talking about Francis Tiafoe. And people are talking about Iga. And then ultimately, Carlos. And so now I have a casual sports fan friends who are naming those five names and following them, whereas before All they knew was you know, Roger, Rafa and Serena, so I think tennis tennis was the big winner. And it was, I felt so lucky, just to be a part of the event where, you know, that sort of that that moment happened.

Daniel Kiernan  11:18

No absolutely, and it was actually Serena to blame. For my, for my tired, heavy eyes for that first week, of the open, because obviously here in Europe, you know, the it was late, and I couldn't take my eyes off it, you know, I had to, I had to watch it, you know, and that the final match every one of the matches was fantastic. And there's two things because I want to talk about Eric Butorac, I don't want to talk just about Roger Federer and Serena Williams, in the position that you're in incredibly challenging, because you're you're you're looking after high end, tennis players with big expectations, and you know, all of these bets, and then you have the potentially the greatest of them all, you know, certainly on the female side, and Serena, having that on at home in the USA, potentially going out. But she's playing against another player. And there's, you know, and there's two people going on. And I know that when I saw a net complex, I saw her her press conference, you know, the tears flowed, you know, it was it was it, it was a very difficult situation. And even though I'm sure she will look back very fondly, at that, at that moment, and that part of time and that part of history, to be sat on the court to be to be hard to seeing the videos, and the adulation and all of these bits, and then having to get up and then compete in a tennis match. How were you able to manage that? You know, I would imagine there's probably a little bit of Fallout fallout maybe the wrong word, but there's conversations you're having to have around those, those bits as well. So how were you able to manage that whole? That whole piece? And not just obviously, Serena is not the only priority that you had?

Eric Butorac  13:04

Yeah, it's, it's a big challenge and something we take very seriously. And it happens at all levels, right? We we have we have top players, we you know, right now, the, maybe the Big Four, if you would call Serena, Roger Rafa and Novak, and the amount of titles they want, and sort of managing those for when they come to every US Open, right, that's sort of their an operation than themselves. But even when it comes down to things like, you know, making sure there's a level of fairness, we go, you know, to the end of the earth to make sure that who's ever playing those players gets opportunities to practice on on Arthur Ashe, but you know, but before they get out there, to make sure that we realize that there are two players on that court, right, and that they do get treated with with the best possible US Open experience that they can have. And that's the responsibility of our team. And it's challenging, because, you know, they everyone's got comes with sort of different excitement levels or baggage or size of team. And we just need to kind of work it all into ultimately into a tennis tournament.

Daniel Kiernan  14:09

And my last one on Serena, why has she left it is such a mystery. Why it's, you know, it's, in some ways, I kind of I like it, it is this way she is she isn't she, you know, but in your heart of hearts. Will we see Serena Williams again at another professional tennis tournament?

Eric Butorac  14:29

Who I have no idea. You know, I don't know. I don't know what where she's at as far as her interest in you know, kind of do putting in the work that takes I think, I guess from sitting on the outside and not having had one conversation with her about it. I would bet that she surprised herself at the level that she was able to play. From watching her in Cincinnati only two weeks earlier where she did not look right. She was not playing good tennis. I think her body wasn't in a great place and And then only, you know, two weeks later, was able to come out and put on the level, you know, play the level that she played, she probably started thinking, wow, you know, you know, I can still do this, I think the hard part will be and Dan, you played and I played and is then to go home. And do you want to put in those hours of training that it really takes to be, you know, a competitive player again, and it gets one thing to kind of really ramp up and do it for a few weeks. It's another thing to sort of play and do it for a calendar year. And all players struggle with that, right. It's easy to get up for the slams. But after the US Open finishes, you know, all the players go home, they train for a week or two and then they get on a plane to Asia, and they go play in Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok, or Seoul or Tokyo on the other side of the world. And, and there's sort of a low right and you have to, you know, to really be a pro tennis player, at least like guys like you and me, you know, you need to earn points, those weeks, you need to you need to work hard, and those are the kind of the differentiators. So will we see her again? I don't know. tough to say. But certainly watching her at the open was pretty special. So if she wants to bring you know more of that excitement back to tennis, I think we'd all be happy to watch it

Daniel Kiernan  16:07

we'll take it we'll take a Federer Federer Serena mixed doubles, Wimbledon 2023, you know, we'll, we'll take it and they're all a lot of them are starting to come to the end at the end. And it's an exciting time, like you said, but I want to I want to move into you, you know, your story and the starting point, you know, it goes goes young as you want goes early as you want, you know how, how you started where you where you were brought up, you know, how you got into tennis, and, and where where that real passion that seeds was the one thing whenever I've seen you as you're a passionate guy, you know, tennis is in your blood, you know, it's got into your blood. So how did it and when did it?

Eric Butorac  16:47

Yeah, good question. There's definitely a couple of key influential people along the way. Started with my parents, my parents actually own a small tennis club in Rochester, Minnesota. And so I grew up, you know, with with my dad, who was the head Pro, and it was a six court indoor facility, and then a 15 court outdoor public park. And so you know, my summers were spent every day going with my dad to the tennis club, hitting balls in different groups playing ping pong eating lunch. And that was sort of, you know, my summer camp, if you will. I was a good junior player from sort of standards in Minnesota, I had a kind of a moment where I was maybe about 12 years old, and realized, you know, having tears after every match, told my dad, I didn't want to play anymore. I want to quit tennis, I don't like this. You know, kids are cheating, there's pressure, I want no part of it. And he, you know, really calmly said, you know, no problem, you know, what is it you want to do you want to play other sports, you want to do other things, you want to be a normal kid, you know, you'd have to chase and play these tournaments, and no problem. Ultimately, a couple of years later, when I was about 14, 15, I decided, you know, what I, I really want to get back into this. And I've been hitting balls, you know, for those couple of years, I just hadn't really been playing tournaments. So when I was about 15, I came back to the game and started playing tournaments around Minnesota started taking it a little more seriously. And, you know, became one of the best players in the state again. But that was sort of when I went from, you know, having that hunger that I think or that the hunger I having the love that my dad sort of kind of instilled in me and watched how much the game meant to him. But then when I sort of walked away from it, and came back as a teenager, you know, now is sort of I was doing it for me, I took a little bit of ownership of it. Even when I became 16, I started driving myself to tournaments, I would meet up with friends. But it was my thing, right. And that was really important. And so that was where I started to get a little bit of a sort of launching pad wasn't really good enough to get recognized by any of the major schools, walked on to a small d one school, little Ball State University. I was in and out of their lineup, you know, and after a year and a half decided to transfer to a d3 school. And that was where I met sort of the, you know, the next big influence, which was a guy named Steve Wilkinson. He was I think he's the winningest coach in all of college history. And he actually coached my father as well and sort of kind of instilled sort of the passion in my dad. So I had a relationship with him starting right away. And he sort of changed you know, everything how I framed the game. And I walked in as the number two player, I thought, I just want to get to number one on the team. And he sort of said, Look, you know, your, your goals here are not to be number one on the team. Your goal is to become the best tennis player you can be. And we started focusing on that he lives by a thing and you'll probably appreciate this with the title of your podcast. He lived by the Serenity Prayer, you know, focusing on the things you can control, and he would just beat us over the head with this. You know, when we would complain about someone cheating us when we would complain about the wind when we would complain about anything He would always just bring it back to that same mantra. And it was great. And it was a really powerful message. So the two and a half years with him, you know, he just changed everything, how I how I thought about the game, how I approached it, how I tried to get better every day, stop looking at sort of outside metrics, and really looking at myself on how to get better. He, in addition to the focus on you can on what you can control a message, he had the three crowns that he would always sort of rate us rate us on. And that was, you know, giving full effort, having a positive attitude, and then you having good sportsmanship. And again, all three things that you can control, we would talk about him after every match, he would rate us on scales sometimes on how we were doing. And so that was that was sort of a fundamental or really great building block for me to go out on the tour. I didn't really realize it at the time. And I think it was a one of the d3 nationals like kind of wanted to keep playing tennis. But d3 players never really turned pro. So it was the sort of weird crossroads of do I go be a high school teacher, like was my original plan, or do I, you know, take a shot at this thing. And he was he was super encouraging and ultimately led me to kind of integration of bumping into you, which was moving over to Europe, with a couple of friends who dragged me over there to play money tournaments in France, ultimately led to some futures and kind of that's where the whole pro journey began. But if you ask kind of where the fire came from, or where the love, you know, combination of my mom and my dad, and then Steve Wilkinson, who really kind of, you know, kind of set me up for success.

Daniel Kiernan  21:42

When I speak to good storytellers, good speakers, it's great, because you can have I have a very loose script, you know, loose, loose structure to these conversations. But when it's so genuinely interesting, my mind goes. I'd love to know more about that. And I'd love to know more about that. And then it's like, it's picking it's picking which one you know, which, which, which rabbit hole do we jump into now, the first one that I have to because, as I said earlier, this is 178 episodes. So when you speak to 178 people in our sport, you learn a lot, you know, and you you confirm some of your thoughts, you get challenged on some you, you you pick up new pieces of information. And one thing that's confirmed that I've had confirmed to me is how many good people that are in our sport, you know, and I think sometimes the cynicism around that. So that's, that's, that's one thing. But one thing that's absolutely jumped out of mind, and I always ask the question, How did you get into the sport, and I'm almost waiting for them to tell me which tennis club that their parents worked at. And I'm almost waiting for otter here. Which tennis club was across the road from where they lived? And it is what it brings up? I think there's a bigger question because it feels as if there's, there's a fraternity in our sport that continues and you come you know, you have kids, and then they become part of that fraternity and it it kind of goes on. But then I guess the challenge is, how do we get others into, you know, into the sport that are on the outside of the of the tennis fraternity already. Because, again, smallish sample size, but 170 people, some journalists, some people out of the sport, I need to go through it one day, but I can almost guarantee it's 80% Plus, that have started through already having family members that are strongly attached to the sport, or are a coach. I don't know, I don't know what your thoughts are on that. If that's, you know, obviously, we're looking at tennis now as a whole. But I guess the question is, how are we opening up the sport to others? You've touched on it a little bit when you talked about the US Open and you know, your casual friends talking now a little bit more about some different names. And I would imagine that's at the forefront of a lot of conversations with the likes of the USTA and people that are heavily involved in tennis.

Eric Butorac  24:16

Yeah, I mean, of course, you know, with the USTA, that our mission is to grow the sport and that's a whole, you know, different path we could talk about, but if we just sort of, you know, even focus on just the personal you know, I think a lot of people get it wrong. And maybe this is parents who aren't getting great guidance, that at the youngest age, it's just getting your kids to fall in love with the sport. Like any I have an eight year old who's super talented and he really plays baseball and hockey and this morning, you know, 6:30am he's dragging me out of bed and we played a full set of tennis in the driveway and our little mini court you know, and he hits the ball well and he but he won today six four actually wasn't Because I knew we had to get the breakfast for all the kids and it was for all and I was like, I'm better off dumping these two games. So I get the sausage and hashbrowns cooking. But, you know, my wife who played college tennis often says, you know, you got it maybe fix his forehand or what do you think about the backhand so flat, you know? And I'm like, No, he just needs to love the sport. Like, that's all he needs. At this age. He's eight, like, we can fix the forehand and the backhand when I send them to your academy in Spain when he's 16. You know, that's, that's not an issue right now. And you know, the other day, I early last night actually brought my two boys, I have a six year old as well, it was pretty into tennis. And we went to the winter, the nearby Middle School courts, and there was a dad there with two kids exactly the same age. And he came over he said, Hey, would your older son want to hit with my son? And I said, Sure. I said, Well, why don't we play three on three? And he's like, Oh, I thought maybe we would do like a, you know, a set because he plays at this club. And he has these lessons and blah, blah. I said, Yeah, but let's just have some fun. You know, let's play family against family three, three, and we just, you know, fed balls, and we had orange dot balls and red dot balls and foam balls. And it was sort of chaos, but it was super, super fun. And so I think, at least in the world, that I live in the greater New York City area, there's this real pressure to like, you know, learn and achieve. And parents are taking too many lessons when it's like, if you can just plant that joy, that passion, that love and the kid later on down the road, they can get really, really good. So that's what I tried to do. I tried to have my own family. You know, my dad did it for me. Everyone said, Oh, you're so lucky. You had a dad who's a tennis coach. And like, he didn't look at one grip. He didn't teach me one lesson. We used to go and hit balls. But he was we were just we were playing games to 10. Or we were rallying we you know, there was there was no coaching going on. So I think that's that's the message I tried to tell. And I think a lot of people who have made it, if you call them you know me as one of the guys who have made it, we know that we know that it's not about you know, whereas the people who haven't get caught up too much and trying to achieve at a really young age and actually can take kind of the kids to the wrong direction.

Daniel Kiernan  27:06

I absolutely love the message. And I'm with the message. And it would be definitely one of my big messages as well. But the the challenge to that message, somebody sat at home or so in the car right now going Carlos Alcaraz, you know, are they're saying, you know, these players that they come along, and I always think they're, they're bad role models in lots of ways, because they're generational talents that come along. And it's not the journey to follow, because it's too difficult to follow that journey. Let's

Eric Butorac  27:40

Let's assume you're not Carlos Alvarez. I tell people that all the time. Let's assume you're not talented, like Roger Federer, let's you know, anyway, continue.

Daniel Kiernan  27:50

Yeah. And so that's, that's the, because that's the thought. And I obviously, I'd go to International Tennis Academy, where we have people coming from all around the world, and the demand, the demand for 10 year olds, to have this program and individualized program and stretching and stretching and then you know, must be this fitness coach that does that movement. And it's, it is a challenge. And it's my biggest headache if I'm honest, because Because fundamentally, I know that if they're going to be any good, there'll be there'll be good, let's create the environment for them to develop. And so you're now in my position, you know, you're running a tennis academy, in a competitive part of the world, you know, spin, there's hundreds of tennis academies, you know, Juan and Jose down the road, giving the strong message that you need to be you need to be training 10, 15, 20 hours and you need individual lessons. What's your message to that parent or not that parent? Because it's not one? It's, it's a significant number?

Eric Butorac  28:52

Yeah. It is, it is challenging. I would try to message at least at that age, that you don't need the hours of training, but you do need the hours of sport. So, again, if I were in your place, and me and maybe you do this, but I spent a lot of time training in Nice France, there was an academy which is now taken over by Mouratoglou, but before that it was a place called ISP, by Charles Charles Offley. And we used to I used to train with their kids all the time. And we played so much soccer, we did boxing in the sand, we played basketball, we went swimming, we went to the ocean, and you know, there was a lot of multi sport approach, which I thought just made all of us better athletes, me being you know, a pro at the time, but when I was hanging out with, you know, 15 year olds, and I thought that was really, really valuable. And I've heard Novak say that as well. And, you know, it's less about being in the gym. He goes, he goes kayaking, he goes hiking. You know, he does a lot of things like that, that I think make you a really great athlete. So if you can steer parents there instead of you know, it's it's not about, you know, basket feeding, you know, for 15 hours a week. It's about, you know, becoming this phenomenal athlete. The story that I want to point to and I need to learn more about the story is this young American kid Ben Shelton, who has just broken through, he won the NCAA's, you want a few rounds, and since he be Casper Ruud, and then had a wild card at the Open, his dad is the coach at Florida. And I need to get the exact details. But I believe Ben was like a baseball pitcher until he was like 15. And was you know, not even really recruited by many schools, he ended up playing for his dad, you know, multi sport athlete well into his teens, then got to college and really started kind of, you know, taking off and, but shows that sort of the multi sport approach. You know, they were not focused on rankings, they were not focused on, you know, Junior rankings Junior points and climbing ladder at all, they were purely focused on athletic development. And then, you know, when he was 1718 1920, those were the years that he really, really got into it. And now look at what he's doing on the pro tour. So I feel like if we can focus on a lot of stories like that, it's, it's a helpful model to show parents

Daniel Kiernan  31:17

Well it is, and it's important that we have, we have those things in the forefront as well, because because the Alcaraz is the Serena Williams the Roger Federer is Rafael Nadal is the history on text there. They're on our screens. That's who we see. So. So then, as parents, it's easy to delve into their stories, you know, so what were they doing at age 10? You know, what are they you know, but what was, you know, there's many of them are dominant Koepfer, I've had him on the podcast, he was playing, he was playing twice a week until he was 16.

Eric Butorac  31:48

I was a volunteer assistant coach at Harvard, when Koepfer came in and played and he was like, 40 in the country. You know what I mean, in college tennis, I was out there helping coach our Harvard kid against them, you know, I mean, yeah, I see he was he's an incredible example.

Daniel Kiernan  32:02

Yeah, these are the ones we need to shine a light on. But the other topics, I don't want to miss that the other couple of things that jumped in my mind, but it's along that line. So you talked about and control the controllables, as you can guess, from the name is my mantra. And it's the Academy's mantra. And it's, you know, something that has helped me personally over the years, you know, and I want that to continue helping as many individuals as it can. And there's lots of layers to that. But you at age 20, we're ready to take those messages. And that can be sometimes we do a at the end of every week at the Academy, we do a Friday, we call our Friday circle, and the circle represents team Soto. Two, we are the you know, the unity of the team. And and then we we talked about the values things that have happened during the week, we have Player of the Week based on values, you know, you know, and it's, it's always a, it's a nice moment. But the guilt I have sometimes is Am I on my soapbox, in giving these messages that I've learned now as a 42 year old? And is it too early career for some of the players to take them on board? So to link that into your personal story? If you were given by Steve, Steve Wilkinson, I think you said if Steve had given you those messages when you were 1314? What was your mind ready to take them on? And is it worth those messages being given at such a young age? Does it seep in? And eventually come out?

Eric Butorac  33:34

Yeah, cuz I think absolutely. Because one, I think I was probably getting them from my father, my father played for Steve. So I think, you know, there was stuff like I was the best player in one of the best players in the state. So when I played my high school tennis matches, as a, as a 1617 year old, I was beating most of the kids, you know, 6-1 6-1 6-0 6-1 6-1 6-2. And I remember my dad saying, I feel like the third match one year like, hey, After every match, I would like you to you know, shake your opponent's hand, compliment them on one thing that he did well, and then after the match, after a few minutes, actually go over and have a conversation and just kind of get to know him a little bit, whatever. And it was like, you know, I did that. And it became a bit of a routine. And then I got to guess, Davis a couple of years and four years later, and Steve said, By the way, we just have a rule here that you got to compliment so Oh, God. So here my dad had taken one of Steve's things and had driven home to me. And so now, you know, I'm already doing with my son, right? He's a it's like, you know, he's, he's, he loves the sport. He pitches he's a hockey player. And you know, we never talk about winning and losing on the drives home. You know, I I cloud their day on the ice. They were doing a one on one drill and the kid stole the puck from them and scored and they went back into the line and he kind of fist bumps the kid. I could hear him say, you know, nice, nice, nice play. And on the way home I talked about how like how important that was and how great I'm proud of him I was for that moment. And so just trying to highlight those messages at a young age as opposed to, you know, first question being how many goals did you score or or did your team win, which is, which is a natural thing for all of us to do, because sport is competition, man, I get that. But you have to really, you know, I think go out of your way as a parent to drive these messages home. But I know that if I can get those messages into my son at eight, he's key could be receptive to you at 13, he could be receptive to a Steve when he gets to college. So I'm really working hard because the world doesn't always set you up for those types of messages to be received as much as say, the winning and losing. So I think, you know, we've we've got to go out of our way to deliver it.

Daniel Kiernan  35:43

Great advice. And that's that little moment there, I think for parents that are listening, you know, because it's not an easy gig. And it's certainly not an easy gig when you're coming into a sport you don't know, you're you're naturally comparing your your son or daughter to Little Jimmy or, you know, a little Emma, you know, that's doing this and winning the tournament and what are they doing? And, you know, that parent is speaking that way quite strongly. So maybe I need to speak like that, maybe that's gonna make the difference. So, so I think that's for me what these podcasts are about, you know, it's about those messages, take those messages from people that have that have been there. But back to your your story. Anyone that does US college, Dave, one division one US colleges, like it's the Holy Grail. And I want it I'll talk to US college. I mean, in my day, it was actually in Europe, it was you failed, if you've got the US college, you know, then it became well, if you've got a div one it's okay. You know, if you got a div one, it's okay. So

Eric Butorac  36:44

I imagine Cam Norrie's changed that.

Daniel Kiernan  36:47

Cam Norrie is definitely, definitely played a role. But I mean, but there was so many of them over the years, even in my time. I mean, James Blake had just was just coming out. You know, you had you had all sorts of players, obviously, Kevin Anderson, we could go through them, but gone, taking the step from div one to div three, two pronged question. How was that for you to go? Well, actually, you know what, it's not working out here. I'm going to know better way of saying it, maybe relegate myself down the divisions, and explain to people out there that they'd have this preconceived idea that division one's the only place to be how you? What is the difference between the divisions? Why? Because people automatically go well, Division One is obviously really good. Division Two is not as good. And Division Three is really not nowhere near as good. So can you give us a little bit of context of that as well?

Eric Butorac  37:41

So yeah, I can I can share sort of even a story. But I mean, I was I was of the same mindset, right? People thought I would choose to go to Chris Davis right away, because my dad had played there. And I had this relationship with Steve. And I was like, No, I want I want Div one. You know, that's, that's where it's at. And I got there and had this sort of, you know, moment of realization that it's also a combination of tennis as an individual sport, and then you, you join a team in college, and you are cheering for your teammates, and you want to win together. But you're also sort of fighting for a lineup spot against your teammates. It's a very odd, odd thing. And it's something it's not talked about a little bit, I think I struggled with that. And I struggled fighting for a lineup spot. And I realized that I thought I wanted to be around better players, I thought I wanted to be in that, you know, it was going to push me to be a better player, but I realized that sort of the stress of am I going to play or am I not going to play is the coach watching this baseline game, I need to beat this guy, you know, almost to the point to where I was, you know, hoping some of my teammates would lose on any given day, because I wanted to make sure I would be in the lineup the following week. And that wasn't, it wasn't a great place to be. So for me, then kind of go into d3, going to a place where I was, you know, the top player on the team, or at least one of the top players was really comforting. I got more attention from the coach, you know, the, I could I could totally relax and practice. And if I if I lost the baseline games, like I, you know, it was no big deal, I was still going to play, you know, one or two on the weekend, I could work on things and you know, I'm gonna serve and volley both first and second, serve this whole set, and not worry that I might lose to the number of six guys because I'm really like working on my craft. For someone who is self motivated, like myself, it was actually a much better fit, you know, I didn't need the rah rah, I didn't need to be, you know, sort of challenged by guys, you know, nipping at my heels. I had that sort of inner desire. So, for me, it was it was the right the right spot. But ultimately too it, it comes down to like, you know, this gets back again, comes back into the junior question of like, you know, why do we play sport and we play sport because it's fun. You know, we get to learn a lot about ourselves, so we get to compete, but ultimately, it's really, really fun. And I think for me, you know, the D one practices were long, they were stressful. I wasn't enjoying it that much. That I went to Gus Davis where you know, practices If we're much shorter, and I found myself arriving early and staying late and practicing the same amount of time anyways, because just because it was a more enjoyable experience for me there. And that was nothing against the program where I went to Ball State, it was an incredible program was a great coach. So isn't the right fit for me. And I say that, you know that that same kind of idea can relate to an academy, if you're choosing it for your kid, it can relate to other sports, you know, and ultimately, we we play sport, because it's, it's joyful, and it's fun. And you and I have both met many pro tennis players whose parents have, you know, driven, you know, the whole operation. And maybe the player is ranked 50 in the world and making a half million dollars a year, but they're not enjoying it at all. They're not happy to be there. So is that really winning? Is that really the goal? I personally don't think it is, you know, with my kids, I want them to love sport. I don't care what sport it is. And they don't want to do sport and they want to be in art or some other entertainment or another industry. That's great, too. But like, if you don't love it, I don't think you're gonna be that great. And if you somehow get great without loving it, is that really a win or a success? Like, I'm not really so sure it is. So for me that to wrap it up back to the d3 thing. It was it was such a happy place that I couldn't wait to go to practice every day. I couldn't wait to be there. I couldn't wait to go for a morning hit with my coach, I couldn't wait to go to the gym. My best friends were on the team. It was such a joyous experience. That that's why I think I develop so well as well.

Daniel Kiernan  41:31

Brilliant. My I shouldn't say this out loud. But my favorite maybe it's my favorite one of my favorite podcasts I've done. episodes I've done was Valorie Kondos Field, I don't know if you've come across Valerie, but Valerie was the she was the UCLA gymnastics coach for many, many years. And she just retired about two years ago, and she's done a TED talk, listen by millions, which is winning doesn't always equal success. And you know that it's that exact concept. And, and what she did, because she wasn't a gymnastics coach, she was actually a dancer, and she came into this position. And she said, Well, I saw, I felt I had to do what the other gymnastic coaches were doing, you know, to kind of show my worth of being. And I think we can do that as parents. So she mirrored behaviors and, and then she had some complaints about bullying. And you know, she was and she was gonna do it through grit determination. And she just took a step back and went right actually, this is, this is not me, this is not how I want it to be, you know, and if it means we don't win the NCAAs we don't win the NCAAs, you know, but I want to have a happy team, I want to find, you know, this way and she completely fair play to her completely change the way she coached the way she was around the girls. And actually, the byproduct was that they did go on and win more, you know, and that's the icing on the cake. But But what she had now is she had happy young people who, you know, were going into into the real world, you know, with that, that feeling that passion, that that that positive experience. And if you do get a chance to listen to that one, it's well worth listening to, for the listeners and also the TED Talk that she does as well, because it's it's that concept and it's it's I think more and more that conversation's coming out, you know that that would have been shut down 20 years ago. Now, be tough. be tougher on them. Yeah, you know, they need more hours. And I think more and more, we're realizing that human beings are a bit more complex than that. And, you know, we first and foremost need to need to take care of that. There's, I've just seen the time and I want to talk about so many more things. So I'm gonna try and keep it a little bit shorter. Maybe we do a part two, Eric, but I need to ask you in your pro career you went and played you know, we know you in the UK because you you had such a great partnership with Jamie Murray. i You had some amazing success finalist at Australian Open, you know, went and did things that many people can only imagine. But I have to ask you about the time that you spent with Louis Cayer because Louis Cayer, and we talked about this off air. I don't know if there's ever been a coach almost in any sport that's transcended such such a change in in results on the court ultimately, you know, as as he has with with British tennis, or in doubles in general. You know, you look at his record, it's, it's crazy. I think it's like 20 world number ones and a crazy amount of grand slams. So what was I do believe you did some work with him when you were working with Jamie. What what made Louis so special and him as a coach so special?

Eric Butorac  44:44

You mean we can do a whole podcast just on? I think he's I think he's that special. Again, probably after, like I say I mentioned my parents I mentioned Steve and then Louis is probably the next most influential person on my career, and I didn't even get to spend that much as much time with them, yeah, the year we played in oh seven. I think Jamie and I were both ranked around 100 in the world. And Jamie had been hired by believed by Judy to work just with Jamie I was sort of just a hanger on, you know, tagging along for the ride, and was just sitting there with my my notebook trying to soak up as much information as possible. And he took us from, you know, 100 to maybe, you know, 20 in the world reasonably quickly. And it time a sort of a ranking jump that many people really, really struggle with. You know, he he makes the game, least for, for me a bit mathematical, there's a lot of sort of formations, a lot of geometry to it, which which is really helpful to kind of understand the court. And so it takes some time with him. But also, once you sort of learn his system, there's there's a lot of freedom in that as well. And we could talk all about sort of the x's and o's and what he's done. The thing he did for me, was that through his system, I then had the ability to believe that I could beat these great teams, I struggled all along, but believing that I was as good as my ranking even said High was, you know, I look at the ranks and be like, I'm not a 50 Look at these guys behind me, there's so much better than I am. You know, I think a lot of people have this like self belief that they think they're number one in the world when they're nowhere close. I was quite the opposite. But I think through through his, sorry, his game plan, his strategy, the tactics that he that he helped us with, it helped me believe I mean, Jamie, and I think in our first Wimbledon, you know, we were this in the second round, we played Ehrlich and RAM, who were number five in the world at the time. And, you know, I was like, Oh my God, these guys have seen him on TV. They're winning outside the Bryan brothers in the most popular guys on tour, like, there's no way and Louie's like No, no, I used to coach these guys, like you're going to serve here, you're going to run this play, you're going to do this on when they start, they're going to they're going to want to do this to you. So you're going to counter that with this. And he's like, I think I think you'll be fine. I I would expect you guys to win this match. It's like, are you crazy? You know, I was playing Challengers, you know, three months ago. And so that was what he in he instilled that belief without it being like a bunch of fluff, you know that I've had coaches before who say no, you just gotta believe you just got to believe. And he said, No, you you you can believe. Because if you do this, this and this, you are going to win. And that that for me was really the sort of the differentiating factor. So again, I'm sure what he did for me in that year, is similar to what he's done for, you know, so many British players, right. And I lived through sort of the, the Skupski brothers and Jamie and Fleming and Hutchins and Delgado and, and now there's sort of like a whole nother generation coming through right with with with Salisbury and Glasspool. And just like if you give Louie a semi talented, you know, ex college tennis player, he the guy could get him in the top 50 in no time. Like it's, it's literally unbelievable. Because I've seen him do it again and again and again. And that, you know, he's still taking guys to number one in the world. I know, you know, the LTA constantly puts new sort of goals on him around how many players he needs to have in the world tour finals. And he seems to do it like year after year,

Daniel Kiernan  48:25

And takes great pleasure.

Eric Butorac  48:29

But I will say that one thing too. And finally I'll wrap it up and get back to you. But he's, he also doesn't stop learning. And I really respect that about him. We had some great we have great conversations. We had coffee in Turin last year and spent hours chatting we had we chatted to be US Open. He's constantly studying the game to be one step ahead of everyone else. And I think this is happening, say in the NBA, where it's like, oh, it's all about three pointers. And Steph Curry changed the game and then everyone sort of copies of that model. Right? But But Louis is always one step ahead. You know, when when other people are copying his tactics, He's then going, you know, to the next level. And he puts in the effort, he's got the brain for it. And it's it's just incredible what he's done.

Daniel Kiernan  49:09

I'll share a quick story as well, even on the terminologies that he uses. So probably back when you played he would talk on the return of serve all about the feeling of catching the ball and turning. And, and one day the doubles guys domine Clark, you know, these guys were they were playing I think Davis Cup. And they turned to Louis and they said, Oh my God, and you serve against Andy Andy Murray. It's like he's waiting for our serve. It's like it just feels like he's waiting. So if you speak to Louis now, it's waiting turn, you know, he he's got no issue going well, actually on that I think will will will help more. You know that. That's going to make a difference, you know, takes the data is informed by the data and moves forward. And yeah, he's a very Are you very special special coach and it's lovely to hear just you know your stories. But my last thing, before we do our quick fire round. And again, this is a podcast in itself. Because tennis tennis is a vehicle for life is one of my big, big philosophies and it's something that I, I strongly believe in, you know, you, you put yourself in this, you have the joy, you have the fun, you go on a journey, it the success will come, you know, and it doesn't always mean that you win Wimbledon or you don't do this, but you live your life in the right way and and do it with passion, tennis will take you to some amazing places. And and since you've come out of playing, it's taken you into some amazing places, and you know, the skills that you've picked up. So give us give us a I guess a little quick fire since you stopped playing what you what you've done, and how maybe tennis has helped you to then get yourself into into these into these roles and, and be able to do them with such confidence and such assurance.

Eric Butorac  51:08

Oh, man, that quick fire is gonna be hard. But we can try to list a few things. I mean, I think one you mentioned it early. Tennis has so many great people in it. And I got to know all so many of them. And that can be people who work on the on the, you know, the running of the events, it's the players, it's the tours. Being a part of the player Council, I just I really got the opportunity to meet so many different types of players kind of understand their issues, had great conversations learned about the world, you know, through the eyes of these players. So that was really special and something that I think has given me real great perspective for helping work on the open or in Cincinnati that it wasn't about me being a player and Eric taking what what he knew from a player's mindset and applying it in tournament, it's the fact that I had to know 300 players when I was on the player Council and to really truly represent them. And that's that's what's helped me I think, I think the the the winning and losing and sort of kind of coping with that being able to kind of wake up every day and get a little a little bit better, is an unbelievably valuable skill. I love working the Open because stuff happens in the moment. And there's a lot of people I think that are very good when they have time to analyze and plan and you know, spend months sort of on a project. But when something happens at the Open, there's there's a there's a fire brewing, you got to make decisions fast. And I love that and you got to trust your gut, you gotta assess the situation real quickly, and then make a decision and move. So that's, that's, that's been really, really helpful for me that yeah, that any even this year more in Cincinnati more than ever, where anything at the open I you know, I always have a boss, right, I can go to the tournament director, I can go to the CEO in Cincinnati was the first time where there was a couple of times where there's rain delays, and the tours want to do this, and TV wants that. And the players want this. And, you know, we got to figure out how the schedule goes. But if we do that, we might have to refund tickets. And if we do this, but we don't know what the weather is gonna be like, and then we sort of a conversation, and then they all look at me, and it's just like, Oh, crap, I'm, I'm the one who's got to decide, you know, you sort of sit for a second and be like, no, no, I got this right. This is you know, you have assessed the landscape and make a decision. The same when you're playing a breakpoint, right? And a big match. It's, it's you take all the information in, you make a decision, and you sort of pull the trigger and go with it. So those are some of the things but you know, ultimately, why am I in this role, it goes back to what you said originally, it's about the people. I love the sport, I love all the people that I've gotten to meet it takes you all around the world. This US Open for me was maybe more meaningful, because you mentioned you know, Federer and Serena and they stole the headlines of retiring. But I had a lot of like really close friends retire at the US Open this year. And you know, there was Nick Monroe, there was Andrea Petkovic. There was Sam Querry, Christina McHale, and then probably one of my closest friends in the world, Bruno Suarez. And so it was really about spending time to acknowledge those careers as well. We through kind of surprised Garden Parties. For the majority of them, we had big framed photos that we presented. And it was sort of it was a it was personal for me because I've spent so much time with each of them. And I knew what it meant when I retired at the Open and someone threw sort of a surprise party for me. So our team really, really takes those moments very seriously. And we really tried to make quite a big deal. You know, because, again, I think Serena did steal all the headlines of retirement, but those are those are important careers. And we wanted to recognize them and again, all sorts of all very, very close to me.

Daniel Kiernan  54:58

Very nice. Very good. And, and in terms of, I guess, the position that you're in now, your lens is different, you know, and that's tennis players in general are selfish, you know, we

Eric Butorac  55:12

have to almost have to be happy today, ya know,

Daniel Kiernan  55:15

it's not a debt, it's certainly not a diss. And sometimes you actually want players to be more selfish, you know, there's certain players, I've definitely given that advice, you know, you're talking to too many people view, yet there's too much going on in your world to be a bit more selfish and focused on your career. So if there was one thing, if there was players listening, now that you have the lens on the other side, if there's one thing that you wish they could know, and respect, that maybe they're not fully aware of, what would that be?

Eric Butorac  55:49

I would try to explain to them and I do this, when the time is right, you know, just how much power they have. And signing that extra autograph, engaging with the fans chatting with them after practice is so so powerful, like you're truly changing lives. Cam Norrie beat Carlos in an epic three setter in, in Cincinnati, and, you know, I went into the locker room, I was just sort of check on that the players and you know, the final match of the day before we sort of all kind of had had different directions. And often, you know, they were both sitting quite close together and just kind of went to the two of them together and just sort of said, you know, thank you both for, you know, the show you put on tonight, like, you know, there was the looks on people's faces the excitement, you know, they're gonna go home, and they're gonna play tennis. You know, when Carlos said, at midnight, 1am is walking out to the his car, and he just signs every single autograph, and takes all those photos. Like, every little moment that you take, like you, you are truly changing lives. So you know, do as much as you can, at some point, you have to be selfish, you have to go home. But don't be afraid to spend that extra 10 minutes after practice that extra 15 minutes after a match. Medvedev did at one night in Cincinnati, we went around the full court and signed every single autograph of every fan who waited. And when I see that I really tried to remind them like that was really special. Like I get to see that from now a tournament directors perspective. And that's what can truly change the game.

Daniel Kiernan  57:25

Are you good? And what's next for you? Oh,

Eric Butorac  57:29

who knows? You know, again, I've had I've had six years now working on the US Open two years working on Cincinnati. I don't know what will happen with Cincinnati, because we have a new owner, USDA no longer owns it. But I do also have real interest in getting closer to players on the court. You know, I feel a little turning to feel a little bit disconnected. So if there's a way in whatever my role, however it takes me to get a little bit closer to the court to get closer to the players. I appreciate you having me on because I love to share my story to share my message. And I love the business side of the sport. But I also feel like I can make connections with people I can inspire them. I think some of the stuff that we talked about today, making sure that that's being shared with the next generation, I think I have value there. And I want to make sure that I kind of continue to scratch that itch and, and make sure that I can, you know, rest easy at night that I know that I've kind of done what I can for the sport.

Daniel Kiernan  58:29

Well, I've loved the chat so much I would have you on every week. And I have no doubt that we could find a topic each week, you know that that will make a difference. So I do have some a few quickfire questions but I just want to say a massive thank you you know, on behalf of myself but you know Control the Controllables is now listened to in about 140 countries so there's a there's a lot of people that are listening to this there's a lot of people that are that are taking these messages on board and and I know they appreciate as I do you given up your time to give back to the sport and I'll be listening back with a notepad and I'll be taking the messages down as well because they've been they've been absolutely brilliant. So thank you

Eric Butorac  59:15

now it's been an honor and I appreciate that people still want to hear my stories. Because it's it's yeah, it's certainly is really nice to be able to share them.

Daniel Kiernan  59:25

So first question Control the Controllables quick fire round. What does control the controllables mean to you?

Eric Butorac  59:34

When I heard it, I related it back to the Serenity Prayer which was burned into my brain from my from my first coach.

Daniel Kiernan  59:42

Forehand or backhand

Eric Butorac  59:44

Forehand

Daniel Kiernan  59:45

Serve or return

Eric Butorac  59:47

Serve. I'm left handed has what's put me what gave me a career.

Daniel Kiernan  59:52

One thing that someone would change Neville Godwin I asked that question, get ready for that. He said lefthanders should start every game serving from the ad side.

Eric Butorac  1:00:05

To fair, it's a fair, fair point to be able to save every breakpoint with a slice serve out wide. Granted, I don't know if it's quite as valuable now the courts are slower than they were, you know, many many years ago and then say the Mac Connors era. But yeah, we are different and we when you use it to your advantage, it's valuable.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:25

I'm sure you won't bring it up. But any writers out there let's get let's get the conversation going. college tennis Oh, pro tennis.

Eric Butorac  1:00:33

I had more fun in college.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:35

Roger or Rafa.

Eric Butorac  1:00:38

Gosh, they're both special. Gosh, get to choose one. I always cheered for Roger. But gosh, I've admired Rafa a lot more lately.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:50

So you haven't chosen one yet?

Eric Butorac  1:00:52

Yeah, I'll choose Rog.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:55

You'll your toughest ever opponent.

Eric Butorac  1:00:59

I lost a lot to the Bryan brothers. But for me, the one that made me feel most uncomfortable was Daniel Nestor. Why? Left Handed quirky, never knew what was coming. He had that Louis Cayer background, so you always put the ball where it needed to be even warming up to match with them. I couldn't get any rhythm.

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:23

Davis Cup or ATP cup.

Eric Butorac  1:01:26

Never played any of them. Davis Cup is struggling. I think ATP cup is maybe a little more of the future. But gosh, Laver Cup was great as well.

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:38

Net cords or not.

Eric Butorac  1:01:41

I am fine playing Let's we don't have them. In college, we don't have a World Team Tennis and I was part of a player council that talked about the trial. I think the net machines call it just fine. And it's only a couple of times that said just keep it as it is

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:58

medical timeout or not. I

Eric Butorac  1:02:01

think they are being used for the wrong reasons. So maybe you can see, you can see a doctor at the end of the set. If you need an emergency, I think you should have to sort of like default, like the rest of the game to see someone but there should be different parameters put on them.

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:20

And one rule change you would have in tennis,

Eric Butorac  1:02:24

one rule change. I do think that fast for the format that Australia and open was behind has some legs to it. Because I think we can play more points that are of interest. Like we get to the business end of the set quicker. I'm not ready to say that all of tennis should change to that. But I do think that for game sets. There's there's merit to this discussion,

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:51

five sets or three grand slams for males.

Eric Butorac  1:02:55

We've got to stay with five, although it can get long.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:01

And who should our next guests be on control the controllables? You before you answer it. You have the button to help bring them on. So it has to be within within your parameters of what you can what you're able to pull.

Eric Butorac  1:03:19

I said I said this, I mentioned his name earlier that one of you know, people always ask, you know, who would be three people that you'd like to have dinner with? Right? And they said Roger Federer, Barack Obama and whoever right? I would say that Bruno Soares is one of my three favorite people to have dinner with. We can talk tennis, we can debate, there's depth of the conversation, there's laughter You can cover so many topics with him. And you can learn you can you can laugh, and I think you would very much enjoy the conversation if you haven't had him yet.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:54

We haven't that will be a great guest. So I'll I'll be in touch with you, Eric on that.

Eric Butorac  1:03:59

I'm confident that I can deliver that.

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:01

Well, that's the this is the I do. I do. I don't I don't have the open up on that one. So I'll be in touch. You've been a star. Thank you so much for coming on. Dan, thank you for having me. It was a real honor. And once again, another great recommendation for our next one of our next podcasts and the list continues to grow. Sometimes the guests do say names Mardy Fish said Sergio Garcia, not quite been able to push that one over the line. But they do go on a list. And we do try hard. So Bruno Soares sounds like you'll be an amazing guest just recently retired from the sport of tennis after winning multiple grand slams. So we'll certainly be reaching out to Eric to get that one set up. And Vicki as you were editing this one, I can always tell when you're enjoying it and this was a was another real standout episode.

Victoria Kiernan  1:05:00

Yeah, I said to you didn't die. As I was listening, I'm really enjoying this one. I don't know if it's the parent in me that it's tapping into I do think this is a great episode for parents, not just young tennis players, but young athletes, I think we've got children a similar age and a lot of what he was saying things that I believe him, but he articulated it in a much better way than I could. I mean, he's got a lovely voice isn't a very easy to listen to, and a great storyteller. But I really liked the messages that he was that he was saying.

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:30

He only spoke about the Serenity Prayer and the similarities between that and control the controllables. And for those that haven't heard the Serenity Prayer, it's God grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. And I can't help thinking when I was listening to him, and on the back of Ryan Peniston as well, I think there's some some similarities in terms of their outlook and being able to live your life with this serenity prayer. With this control the controllables mantra, I believe it allows you to continually progress. And we spoke about that with Ryan as well, almost this continuum, that it's not just putting something on a pedestal. And, and then when you fail, you fall off the cliff, which I think tennis players tend to have. And if we take his story of being a good player, taking a couple of years away from the game, starting to play, again, going to division one college but not working out. So then go into a division three college, nobody from Division Three, mix it as a pro, but he wasn't catastrophizing, the whole way that he was thinking he just kept getting better kept, you know, working on the things that he can work on day in day out, and that ended up taking him to a Grand Slam final, then it doesn't end it continues, you know, you keep trying to get better every day. And he's then taking that into the next part of his life, whether that's as a father, you know, passing on those those amazing messages, or what he's now doing, you know, in a very responsible role, you know, working at the USDA, working with some of the all of the best players in the world, at these events and looking after them, tournament director of a Master series 1000. And it just feels you'll continue to get better. Now, I'm sure Eric won't mind me also mentioning this, but after we spoke, he actually did reach out to to ask me my opinion of of the conversation and maybe some of the key things that he felt I picked up from from the chat. He said that would really help him reflect and, and again, that was the humility that he showed in doing that, but also have that whole, right what's Can I get a bit better at, you know, just the 0.001% on Monday, then the same on Tuesday. And I think that all links in to the to the mantra of control the controllables, the mantra of serenity prayer. And it seems like that's had a big influence in his life. And I think it's a nice, it's a nice way to live.

Victoria Kiernan  1:08:37

So what were your key takeaways? What did you feed back to him?

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:42

I, it was that the feeling I had of he was along this journey. And it was a continuum. It wasn't at his final destination. You know, it didn't he didn't have the feeling that he had to be somewhere it was just a case of look, can I get a little bit better every day, I thought that came through loud and clear. And that was even listening to how he spoke about the way he speaks to his kids and the way that that kind of messaging as is passed on, you know, get become a better athlete, don't don't worry so much about trying to be the best player in the world at age 10. You know, see where it takes, you know, try and create and facilitate this environment that that you're going to grow your love for the sport. So I think that was that was one big message. I thought his humility was was really strong. You know, I felt that came through. And even the fact that he reached out to me, you know, why does he need to, you know, reach out to me to get to get my opinion. And I think that that said, said a lot about him. And then my last thing that I fed back to him was was how warm he came across and I think it's a real skill. Will to be able to connect with people. And I think he clearly had that skill, you know, he was able to connect and when we go back a little bit, but we don't know each other so well, but as the player, liaison officer manager, for some of the, like I said, the big, big names in the world, I mean, you're managing Serena, you're managing Rafa, you're managing, you know, someone who's 60 in the world, all of their coaches, I mean, we see running an academy, how hard it is managing, you know, people in an individual sports, who are who are very selfish, I think you have to have those real skills and, and you can, you could feel that he will put, put everyone at calm, you know, at ease, you know, his voice is very calming, but also just the way that he was. And it's no surprise to me, that he is in a job where he is connecting people. And he's and he's playing that role. So those were the three main things that I said to him. But you know, if you are listening now, as well, Eric, you sound like a good guy. You sound like someone I'd like to have a beer with you sound like someone who I'd like you to spend time where my kids and, and pass on those values to as well. So it was a real pleasure to have the conversation.

Victoria Kiernan  1:11:19

I was listening, thinking boy, I'd make a good commentator as well, or a journalist, you'd want to hear him doing those on court interviews, you'd imagine him really getting the best out of the players just started, they finished their match, which is such a skill and we don't we don't always see it. Now the other thing I was thinking of what's the app that people tell stories to help them going to sleep because they've got a lovely, calm, deep voice. I was like, he should do that as well. It's so deep and calming it Just love me right off to sleep.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:50

So there's a few ideas you want some ideas?

Victoria Kiernan  1:11:53

I think he's already got a pretty amazing job. You know, we talk about all the routes that tennis can take you it's not necessarily all about being a professional tennis player. There's so many things you can get out of it. And I was thinking, Oh, he's got such a cool job. Yeah, I was just sitting courtside watching Serena in her last match. It's just amazing experiences you must be getting along the way as well.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:15

Yeah, this is what it's what tennis gives you, or what it can give you. You know, and again, I can't stress this message enough. People are out there playing under 12 tournaments and an absolutely so worried about the end result of that tournament. This is this is not about short term results. And it's not even about that the result at the end of your career. You know, don't don't put those those ceilings on, you just just get better. Get better day in, day out, you know, take care of those things in your control. Each and every day. You do that you'll continue to grow, you'll continue to develop and you'll put yourself in a position like Eric Butorac, Lake Ryan Peniston, like so many that we've heard before. That you will get so much out of this sport, you know you really, really will. And being in it, being able to have that mindset is where it all starts.

Victoria Kiernan  1:13:15

Yeah, when he said when his child gets in the car, they don't talk about winning or losing. And you mentioned it, you brought up Valorie Kondos Field, I'll share the link to the episode in the show notes. Because that is another amazing episode for parents and how, and the key messages that we want to be giving our children and Eric said, you know, it's it's difficult, you know, sport is competitive. And it's not easy. It doesn't come naturally to us. But you know, he talked about the lovely story about his son showing good sportsmanship and having that conversation. So, you know, the result isn't always the focus. It's kind of what you're learning and the skills you're developing along the way. Yeah, like I said, for me, as a parent with young children, I thought it was an excellent, excellent episode. And we've got more coming up by the sounds of it as well. Yeah, we do it

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:01

And a couple, actually, in the next couple of weeks. Another similar one in terms of what can be made of tennis. So one of I think one of the best tennis commentators out there, Robbie Koenig, who just does an incredible job, you know, he, he himself, who was a top tennis player, as as you as I said, gone into commentary, but he's also a tennis parent as well. Here's one of his one of his three children are now playing on the ITF pro circuit to and is about to start a Baylor University. So that's the one I'm really excited for. And then a little bit of a left field one Henry winter, who is a football journalist, for those that don't know, have a look up on Henry is someone who, again, in my opinion, one of the absolute best football journalists out there, and a chance to to have a different conversation but still linking back into tennis for the football fans. ones out there. That will also be a great one because I'm sure we will have some football stories, any Newcastle fans out there i'll be trying to push a few Newcastle United stories as well but that one I'm looking forward to pushing myself out the comfort zone a little bit. You know, I feel I can have conversations with anyone all day about tennis but trying to bring some topics through speaking to someone who's an expert in another sport. That's something that I'm excited for, and many more that are on the way but until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables