#193: David Hodgetts - From Burnt out Tennis Player to Successful Entrepreneur

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 193, of Control the Controllables. Hope you're well wherever you are in the world, and you're looking forward to Wimbledon the big event of the year. But before that, we have a brilliant episode for you today. And as you will know, if you have listened to our 192 podcasts, we're always beating on the drum of what a brilliant, amazing sport tennis is not just for the success on the court for for the skills, the life skills, how transferable those skills are, into the various relationships and phases of your life.

Dave Hodgetts  00:51

Sport is dog eat dog, like very few people make it and business is the same. You know, very, very few people make it and I think that's where the tennis made such a difference. Because, you know, let's you have to be a little bit unique to, to do six hours a day to go in the gym, and then to actually go in the gym two hours later and kill yourself again in the gym and all those sorts of things. And business is the same, you know, maybe the people that were also found in coffee businesses didn't have that sort of experience of sort of the brutal work that you have to put in to be a professional athlete. And

Daniel Kiernan  01:29

What gives me even bigger pride is this is a former pupil of mine, he had a somebody who I was fortunate enough to work with from from a young age, he was a brilliant tennis player, he didn't quite know how good he was. And he had a fantastic tennis playing career up to the mere age of 20 years old. And then he burned out, you know, many of us know that feeling. And it took a little bit of time he reset himself. And now here he is age 29. He set up Triple Two Coffee. He has won Entrepreneur of the Year for under 30s. He is someone now Triple Two Coffee has now been sold to the cooks Coffee Company. And they're sitting with 125 different coffee shops and food stores all the way around the world. And Dave puts this down to his tennis journey to what he learned. And the positives, the negatives, and the fact that he's been able to turn those around into building this amazing brand. And this fantastic life for himself. It is such an important story, guys. It's a one that will leave you inspired. It's a one that will leave you feeling like your challenges are normalized. And I hope you enjoy it. So pass you over to Dave Hodgetts. So Dave Hodgetts a big welcome to Control the Controllables How you doing? I'm very good. Dan, how are you? I'm good. It's what a what a pleasure to have an ex student of mine and, and Dave, I think you know, the starting point for me. I one of the last times I saw you I think you were age 19 or 20 Back in 2014 sort of period. And the word I would use is I saw burnt out tennis player. I saw a tennis player that Yeah, I had been through the trials and tribulations that I think a lot of people listening to this podcast, we'll be able to associate with you know, the the feeling like you've been in a boxing match with Mike Tyson for 12 rounds, you know, and, and just weren't, weren't really in that headspace to it look like at that point to move your life forward in the right right way. And now we fast forward eight, nine years, you know, you, you have been the entrepreneur of the year under 30, under 30s. In the hospitality industry, you know, as well as many other awards, you've had massive success with Triple Two Coffee. You're now part of the Kooks Coffee Company that that owns 125 coffee shops and food stores worldwide. You know you've had incredible success. I'm certainly very proud of you. What's changed in such a short period of time?

Dave Hodgetts  04:30

So good question. I think that my perspective on life has changed quite a bit over the last few years. So sort of like when I mean you're totally right. When I stopped playing tennis, sort of 19, 20 years of age I I'd lost love. I'd fallen out of love of the whole process of being a tennis player. There are a few things that happened in my life that changed my perspective on things and just sort of like going back to when I was a kid tennis player, I went home schooled at quite an early age when I was 13, 14. So tennis was everything to me, I basically committed my life to try and be a professional tennis player. So for me, tennis wasn't like five or six hours a day, it was 24 hours a day. And you know, when I was doing that day in, day out, I think the pressure basically got got too much for me at the time. And then I had a really bad injury. And then during that period, I sort of like, found things outside of tennis that I started to, sort of like really enjoy and really like. And that's sort of where, you know, everything came to a head with my tennis, and I moved on to other things. So yeah, sort of like fast forward, I started a coffee company, sort of six, seven years ago, and sort of my mindset with tennis transferred over to business. So my, my goal was to be the best person I could possibly be in business. I think sport and business are quite transferable skills. So sort of like the first year or two, we open the shop. And it was like seven days a week, open till close, open till close to build to build this brand. And then I decided to franchise the business. And we franchised five, six years ago. And the demand was sort of unprecedented to what we thought it would be. Yeah, So went on a rollout across the UK, opened around 25, 30 stores over a four or five, six year period. And yeah, fortunate enough that we sold the business in 2020. And, yeah, a lot of things have changed for me over that period. So

Daniel Kiernan  06:49

When you said the things that helped you, or maybe forced you to change perspective, what were they? Well,

Dave Hodgetts  06:57

I think, again, we've, you know, there are loads of amazing things that happened with with my tennis and a lot of good memories that I have with tennis and you know, I a lot of things I wouldn't have changed. But I mean, there was an event that I very specific thing I was in a franchise, that's what I do. Now, I was in a Futures. Up in Liverpool, I've done like a three or four month fitness block with my fitness trainer, and I put on about stone in muscle. And you actually watch me play the week before against Jonny O'Mara in the futures. And I was playing playing really good. But I played in the second round of quallies against Marcus Willis, again, played a really, really good game. And then I had Neal Skupski In the last round of quallies. And I remember it really well, everyone that I was training with, had lost the previous day, you know, three or four of them. And they all needed a lift back from Liverpool back to London. And for me, this match was a really important match. And I was trying to be focused on it. But I just remember now playing the match. And all of these people that were supposed to be my friends and wanting me to win, they were desperate for me to lose so that they could get a lift back. And that that was one of the triggers for me, actually, that made me sort of fall out of love of playing. Because I just sort of thought like, Is it is it worth it, and then, and then what happened very, very soon after that is I got a really bad shoulder injury. And during that period, I met the person that's now my wife, and she just basically brought it a different perspective to things. And, you know, I realized there was more things to life than tennis, whereas I think before that, I'd been very much that tennis was absolutely everything, and the only thing that mattered. And I think when, you know, different things started to open up for me, I realized that, you know, there was a more to life than just to just hitting a tennis ball, basically.

Daniel Kiernan  09:09

I think the story that you tell, it's a very common story. You know, and I've seen it, I've been there, it's very, it's not too dissimilar to my tennis story, you know, and the things that I went through as a player and the emotions I experienced as a player and at times that the hatred for the sport that I had the, the burnout that I had, you know, and I think and like I said, tennis players listening will will really resignate with it, you know, so now that you've used that and we'll get into the bits that are transferable because that because I'm also a quite a big believer that adversity makes us and and we're lucky to have those adverse experiences, you know, that's actually those are are actually the bits that build the calluses, the tough bits in our, in our mentality that then go on, you know, the competitive spirit that you've got. And then and then you add them that the extra layers, it's actually tennis as being really at the heart, the vehicle that's taken you through into into other areas of your life that you've been able to excel in, you know, and that's a whole other conversation that I'd like us to jump into, because that's not educated anywhere near enough as people start out on this journey, you know, but what, what would you do different and the starting point for that is, I have to pick up on you also said about you leaving school, doing online learning from an age of 13, it wasn't five, six hours a day, it was 24/7 a day. Yeah, and for and for a mind that let's be honest, that 13 isn't isn't advanced, it isn't mature, it doesn't have the complexities of, of an adult mind. That is a hell of a lot for teenagers to put up with and and to feel, you know, yet many of us are doing it and even more so nowadays than that even when you were playing and certainly when I was playing. So if you were to go back to that period, what is it that you would do different knowing what you now know now,

Dave Hodgetts  11:22

but probably quite a few things, but have far less emphasis on the result. You know, I think the thing that's frustrating is, if there was an adult mindset, and I'm 29 now, so I could still be at the age where I was able to play, but with an adult mindset. I understand now what the top coaches were sort of telling me that results aren't the end of the world, you know, I would be you know, traveling around under fourteens tennis Europe and the 60s, tennis Europe, trying to get my ranking highly so that the LTA picked me for a squad or whatever it might be. But ultimately, for one, it actually just made me perform worse, because again, because all I had was was tennis that I was focused on, I put so much pressure on myself in those situations that I was performing at 50% of my capability because I had, you know, cups around me whilst I was playing tennis. So again, if I had that attitude of the results are not the most important thing. And it's all about the performance. You used to say it all the time. But it wasn't that I didn't believe it. But it's almost like there was the other side pulling me against what was being said that actually, yeah, I agree that performance is important. But I really want to, like I need to win now. And I think that was something that that held me back. And and I think the other thing, again, quite a few things, really, but there was a massive emphasis on if you weren't at a certain level, by a certain age, you weren't gonna make it. And that was a massive problem, I think really, and that was actually LTA driven more, so probably people that went that route again, you didn't have that mindset, and I know that that the sort of feedback I had was, if you're not at a certain level by 18, 19, you're not going to make it. So if I'm 19 years of age, and I'm in a Futures, and I don't qualify, I have that attitude that actually I I'm at the point where I'm not going to be able to get to the level that that I I want to get to and that I need to get to to be able to make a living to be a professional tennis player. But obviously, since then, you know, you see that the people that actually may be the ones that go to American uni, the ones that have a more process mindset, you know, 28, 29 and all people are peaking at 25, 26, 27. And when I was 18, 19, I had quite a junior, quite a junior mindset, but also I wasn't fully developed really, you know, so I might have been less developed than somebody that was the same age as me or more and, and it really takes until you're 2425 for that just sort of level out. So I think it was sort of like the mindset was, it's a sprint, and it's it's not it's a marathon. And that was like, you know, one thing that I would have done differently. I mean, I can I can talk for an hour about the things that I do differently and and advice on.

Daniel Kiernan  14:25

On making it because because we hear a lot about making and if I'm honest. I don't know if it's an only British thing. Yeah. You don't hear it as much in Spain. Definitely not. And actually, people downplay making it more in Spain. You know, we'll have kids at the academy who bloody good players like really good 13 year old years old, like kids who if they went and played tennis Europe's could win tennis Europe's, but they're like, why would I travel I can play They can play a tournament a tournament 45 minutes away, you know? And if I go two hours away, and I lose in the quarterfinals, what's the point? I'm not? Like, I'm not I'm not going to make it as a tennis player. You know, I'm, you know, it's not even, it's almost no, you could look at that as defeatist. But my dear, I look at it a bit differently, because I go, Well, if you made it now, I don't, you don't need to tell me how much you sold your company for. But I can see by that clock behind you, you've done all right for yourself, you know, so in terms of, you know, that perfectly shaved beard, you know, you haven't done that yourself. So I can see that. But you've, you obviously have done very well. And I would argue, Well, you haven't nobody's what's made it what made it mean, you know, this is it, because it's not just a tennis thing. It's, it's an ongoing thing in life. And that's the that's for me that I that I just want to preach, you know, whenever I've got anybody listening, because, and I've mentioned it many times, but this continuum, you know, life is a continuum, it continues until no longer and some people believe it then continues after that. But that's, it's, if we have the mindset of just getting better, getting better, getting better getting better. Whereas the final, it's something about this, like, it's so final, like you said it in, and I know you've got no chance of making it. So it makes it all feel so final and so pressurized and so stressful, that that actually, how can you enjoy that

Dave Hodgetts  16:37

100% I mean, it's definitely a British thing. But it was always, I think making it for a British player, when I was playing was probably making a living. So getting to the point where you're earning a good, you probably top that was always what it was is like, top 100 That was like the phrase, top 100, top 100. And you're like, like everything you say is is totally true. And my perspective again, has changed, because actually making it for me now is being happy. If you're not happy in what you're doing yourself, or if you're not, you know, engaged in what you're doing, or if you're not enjoying what you're doing, then that actually you can never be fully satisfied with yourself. And I've had periods of that as well where, like when I when I sort of originally sold Triple Two in 2020. That was the point where I sort of visualized a bit like being a top 100 tennis player. But I would be like jumping up and down celebrating, you know, the happiest man in the world. But actually, I still felt a little bit, you know, like there was there was something missing somewhere. But you're right, like, for me, making, it's a continual thing. It's a daily, you, you want to have goals, and you want to improve every single day as a person. And then ultimately, you'll look back and be proud of the person that you were totally agree with that. So my view on it would have changed now.

Daniel Kiernan  18:06

Performance versus results? Because I think that's, I think that's an interesting topic. Because, like you say, it's, we, we are all have the mindset that we want to win rates. And that's, that's it almost in any firm that we that we do, and certainly the strong competitors within us. Now, there's, I'm a bigger believer as well of this kind of winning long term and thinking, you know, bigger picture and you will, you will win long term if you get your processes, right, how have you managed to implement that from a business standpoint, because I guess your your when your top 100 in the world was getting the business to a point where you could then sell it, you know, and cash out per se? How did how were you able to get that balance right? And not become so obsessed with the winning bit that you were able to still focus you and your team on the performance side of things.

Dave Hodgetts  19:05

I think that one thing as well. I agree like every sportsman wants to win I'm not saying that you you don't want to win if you know what I mean. But it's the way that you actually get to that point. So we've we've tripled to that you're right my my goal was to have the best coffee brand in the country. So you know the there was like a very goal, you know, focused sort of angle their but business has slight differences, but there's also loads of similarities. So I think we've what what I did with Triple Two, I mean my view was very clear. I wanted to do sort of speciality quality coffee so it was better than pasta Cafe Nero Starbucks it was very you know, I spent days weeks sourcing the right type of coffee, again with the you know, with what we do like the food and the branding was at a really premium level. So I wanted to feel comfortable when we opened our first store, that our product was better than what the competition had out there. And the coffee is factually better quality coffee. So before we started, there was already the sort of like confidence that you know, what I'm actually looking to sell. You know, I'm not bullshitting it, basically, it actually is better than what's out there. So it was quite easy for me to sort of sell it to my team and sell it to the people that we've hired over the over the years, that what they're a part of a triple Two is better than what they can be a part of with other coffee brands. So I think like, you know, really, it wasn't too, too difficult, if that makes sense. Because a lot of the work was in the pre planning, it was all about getting the best proposition out there. And then, and then the transferable is, is, you have to work bloody hard to make something work. Like I worked for free for 18 months, I took out loans, I did all those sorts of things, I took the risks that you sort of often need to make something succeed, and actually think that, that making trouble to work was probably harder than when I was doing my tennis or it was equally, let's say, it was brutal. But the similarities as well, is like sports is dog eat dog, like very few people make it and business is the same. You know, very, very few people make it and I think that's where the tennis made such a difference. Because, you know, lets you have to be a little bit unique to, to do six hours a day to go in the gym, and then to actually go in the gym two hours later and kill yourself again, in the gym, and all those sorts of things. And businesses the same, you know, maybe the people that were also found in coffee businesses didn't have that sort of experience of sort of the brutal work that you have to put in to be a professional athlete. So that's where I think I had like a step above, maybe other a lot of other people starting businesses is they came from a background where, you know, they went to school all day, you know, they did their homework, and there's nothing wrong with that. And they did their uni they did that whole course. And I came from a totally different background on that. You know, you weren't amazing.

Daniel Kiernan  22:27

John Hicks will set anybody up to set a business up?

Dave Hodgetts  22:30

Yeah, he used to tell me stories all the time of people. He coached that were sort of like business entrepreneurs now. But no, I mean, I was pretty lucky to have John Hicks coached me, that's for sure. I mean, he was, yeah, if you do, right, is you'll get he's a good he was on the podcast. I did. I did watch that one. But it was a couple of years ago. So I'm just checking up but He's okay.

Daniel Kiernan  22:53

He's, he's good, John. But yeah, that was that was what I have to get them back on at some point. But for me, that, when I was when I was looking through all of the information on the business, I came across the company ethos, and an honestly, a could have been the ethos of developing a world class doubles team, or, or a world class team around a top singles player as well. You know, and that's when we talk about transferability you know, and I'll just go through them and I'd love to get your thoughts afterwards in there, maybe where you got these from and how you brought this together, but, you know, high heist high standards, you know, ultimately, you know, the value of excellence, you know, driving excellence on a day to day basis. Business first, you know, and that's, again, something I talked to the doubles guys, Lloyd and Harri, you know, every single day, it's, you know, they've got to ultimately put their their job their business first in everything that they do everything that they do, staying curious, you know, constantly, you know, where where is the the world of tennis going, you know, what are what are other people doing, what's the new patterns, the way of staying ahead of the game, the way of looking after their bodies, it's all very, very similar, you know, creative collaboration, you know, the same within the team, but you know, nothing, nothing standstill forever. And then my favorite, which is, which is basically control the controllables in a nutshell, which is which is taking responsibility, you know, and anyone that is that has success in any field, and these are things that I'm preaching on a on a day to day basis, you know, with with one of the top doubles teams in the world with the team at the academy, you know, so talk us talk us through them and how you bring those to life.

Dave Hodgetts  24:45

I just basically copied it from what you used to say to me

Daniel Kiernan  24:50

must be a percentage for solo tennis and there's somewhere

Dave Hodgetts  24:53

I think you should be looking at that for sure. I think it's sort of like goes back to you'll never be Happy unless you're trying to be the best that you can be. And, you know, that's sort of like one of the main things is you've got to be prepared to push yourself to the limit of what you can be if you want to succeed in anything you do. So I think like the ethos that we tried to sort of create really was, you know, one that people, you know, want to want to need to try and be the best version of themselves. And like stuff, like staying curious, you know, you should in business, you need to be constantly, I mean, to be fair, doubles, tennis, and that's all the same, you need to be constantly innovating and improving, you know, so for me, it is, you know, constantly innovating different drinks, different food, maybe different marketing plans to get different people through the door, innovating on properties. So we've started opening in, like, residential development. So when we started, we used to open from like seven till five, and we were very much coffee based. But the last two stores we have opened, we open till 10 At night, and we turn into a bar in the evenings. And it's all residential. So people that work from home go there, obviously, the drinks, people don't have to drive because they can walk to and throw there from their apartments or houses. So we've sort of innovated and stayed curious to the to the market and the industry. And again, like tennis, like you said, it's the same, you shouldn't be constantly looking to innovate the way that you, you see things and that you play and that you communicate, I think they're very much the same. So yeah, that's sort of like, where it came from. And also, you know, if you think of, you look at the two, you know, tennis, if you want to be the best out of out there, you've got to be better the Djokovic, let's say, in the industry, I mean, if you want to be the best, you've got to be better than, than Costa, or Starbucks, or Pret, you know, you're talking pretty big players with pretty huge budgets behind them. So you have to be really nimble and thinking of different things and different ways to, to how you can sort of like, you know, get a level above what these guys do. And where, like, one of the things that we can do is, because they're so big, it takes them so long to innovate. Whereas we can make decisions, you know, I can make a decision tonight, and I can change the way that we manage our business. But yeah, it's ever evolving.

Daniel Kiernan  27:23

And how do you because it's one thing, you're, you're an athlete, you've come from a very strong tennis background, you know, for the you listen, and Dave was one hell of a tennis player, you know, he's been very humbling in that, but he really was and got got got to go to a very high level in terms of how he played how he played the game. But not all of your employees are. So So it's one thing for you to have this, this vision, this work ethic, this is the way it needs to be you've got to drive standards, we've got to you know, we've got to put it in guys, you've got to be curious the whole time. The reality of that is, some people or most people that probably working to put a few pennies in the bank to put some food on the table to look after their kids or to do. So how are you? How are you able? How have you been able to what are some of the big challenges that you've had in terms of managing people and bringing that through, into your culture?

Dave Hodgetts  28:28

So yeah, I mean, that's a really good point. And when I say that you want to be the best that you can be, there's a there's a limit in terms of it, it is ultimately in your control. So it's, it's only I can control what I do. But I can only tell you a certain you know, a certain amount of information, you've got to want to actually do it yourself. So one of the sort of best bits of advice someone gave me in business was, if your team can be doing 80% of the maximum, you know, 80% and working at that level, then you've done well in your job. And what I mean by that is I used to have the mindset that everybody when I started, you know, people should be, you know, why aren't they working at the intensity that I have or care as much or whatever. And when I got given that input and matured and it'll be my perspective, again, changed. It was actually if I can get 80% out of these people then and these 20 people around me do an 80% of their capacity, that actually I'll be moving in a positive direction every day. And so will they, because there's the reality that not everybody wants to be a really successful entrepreneur, not everyone wants to be the woman ball and tennis player. Some people are happy to just put food on the table, but everybody wants to do a good job and feel like they're adding value. So, again, I think it's I've adapted a much more sort of balanced proach over the time. And the other thing is, tennis again, the same thing with coaching, you have to read the personality. So with me, there are one or two people that sort of go all the way with me. And you know, I'll be doing other businesses with them. And they work ridiculously hard. They're very, very sort of like that they're desperate to succeed in whatever they do. And the way that you communicate and deal with those people is a lot different to perhaps other people. So it's sort of adapting a different personality, depending on the person as well.

Daniel Kiernan  30:35

And you mentioned there about influences in your life. You are already 29 years old, you know, the things things have happened very fast. And you said, you said to me off air, you wish that you had known the impact that coaches and I'm sure teachers, you know, there's, you know, it's not just coaches, there's coaches, there's teachers, there's many influential people in people's lives. How much of a bigger impact they've had on your life almost than they had on your tennis. And it's, it's something that again, I think sometimes goes goes unnoticed. You know, we think of sometimes people just think of tennis coaches about salt and forehands and backhands out, but Talk Talk to me a little bit more about that statement that you made.

Dave Hodgetts  31:24

Obviously, you know, you pay coaches to do their job or you know, there's there's an hourly rate, or you'll have traveling coaches that traveled with you, and sort of like we discussed a little bit, you can look at it as are they giving you value for the forehand or the back ends that you're you know, you're being you're being taught that there's such a bigger influence from from tennis coaches, really, I mean, I work with John Hicks, I worked with Rob, who I think you've had him on your podcast, the traveling, traveling coach. Sorry,

Daniel Kiernan  31:57

Rob Smithson is in the Rob Rob Smith yet.

Dave Hodgetts  32:00

And actually, that's probably one of the things that I sort of semi regret that I, I've sort of moved on, at the time that I was working with him and I had improved so much working with him really. And then obviously, the time that I had with you in in Soto and before then as well, because we, you know, obviously, I was with you in Edgbaston and spent a lot of time, you know, I mean, years really, but the influence the that sort of the three of you, you know, probably mainly, mainly yourself, have spent most time with you, but the three of you had on the, you know, not just with tennis was was massive, just the different perspective that I've that I feel like I was an adult, almost when I was 21, because of some of the sort of learnings I had with you guys. And some of the things that you guys would have said at the time, I wish that I would have sort of like grabbed hold of it. Now. I remember in Soto, I was 17. And you said, you know, make the most of it now, because polling will just go by so quick, and you won't realize it. And I remember you saying it, and I just thought like, yeah, good, you know, good one, you know, like, good Good one, old man. Good. Yeah, good Good one, you know, like, you've sort of like you're at that point. So you're feeling a bit, you know, a bit a bit older, you're prGobably like 30,

Daniel Kiernan  33:22

Your age,

Dave Hodgetts  33:22

you are my age. And it's, it's a statement that I literally remember and take with me all the time. Because it's the most accurate statement, probably someone's ever said, because it's so true, you know, how quickly the time goes, and how important it is to enjoy the moment. But then again, you know, the, the whole mindset of, you know, controlling what's in your control. You know, being humble being sort of aware of the situations that are around you. Yeah, as I said, it's probably difficult to put into words really, but but the the influence that good coaches have on you is, you know, I think the most influential people I had sort of growing up really outside of my family were the people that I've just mentioned. And now when I sort of, like, when I think of sport, probably the only person that I would be, you know, desperate to see live, or whatever would be Andy Murray. And actually, my family as well, personally, he's the best athlete that's been alive, you know, since I've been alive in Britain. And, you know, I just find him so inspiring. And that's sort of like, the influence that tennis and people's mindsets can have on you. So yeah, I mean, tennis has got massive influence, but there's also loads of things that I I didn't ultimately, you know, I I wish would have would have been different and I didn't particularly like but

Daniel Kiernan  34:51

Yeah, what are some of those things?

Dave Hodgetts  34:55

Well, I think if I would have stayed at school, yeah, and I would have had, and I don't want to be like sort of say the wrong thing necessarily, but I would have had friends that would have had, again perspectives a good word they would have, you know, they would have been studying, they would have been playing their football or, or whatever they do. And my, my dialogue with them would have been different. And it would have been, I feel like that tennis players there's, there's all the good that we are ultimately in a individual sport, so we can be quite selfish. And the friends that I thought I had, weren't necessarily friends. And it goes back to what I said at the start, where, you know, basically, I was, I was playing a match and realized, these people don't even want me to win this match that they want me to lose, so they can get a lift back. And, you know, I've been on trips to, you know, Turkey, where I'm playing against a Turkish player, and all the Turkish people are cheering the double fault I hit. And when I win a point, the British players, literally, you can tell they would prefer the Turkish guy to win. And that mindset, I think, is just so poisonous in the in the business, I do not get it, that my friends were those people. Whereas if I'd have had, you know, friends that would have been, you know, outside the tennis world, I could have had a different sort of dialogue with them, you know, and I think that would have made a big difference to me. So, you know, I would have changed that. And I think that the British culture of a maybe it's changed into now, but it definitely was British players wanted British players to lose. And then you go into a European country, especially Eastern Europe, and they're like, throwing rocks at you to make sure that the other guy wins. So I think like, you know, things like that I would have changed, probably would be the two main probably the main one, really,

Daniel Kiernan  36:50

I think you hit on a really good point there. And it's, it's, I'm gonna go dark for a minute. And, and I'm gonna ask you about maybe your darkest moment, because I think, I think most I think most of us in in the tennis world have had those moments. I certainly I had one. I had one in Rome a couple of days ago, when, when the boys were nine five up in tie break, and missed a couple of volleys on top of the net and lost 11, nine to Tiafoe and MacDonald, and it's the intensity even now at 43 years old, the intensity, the pain of like, I'm away from my family, you know, my kids are crying when they go to bed, because I'm not there, and I'm here. And that's happened. And oh my goodness, if I'm the only won that then the money that they would have earned and the points that they would have earned and the ranking they would have earned. And it all would have felt like it was it seemed right and possible, and, and what and when you're dealing with those things, as a youngster, it's really hard to know what to do with those emotions. And like you're saying, I think you bring up a really interesting point. When people are looking at the sport, and in this instance, tennis, as their everything. It's their friendships, it's their first kiss, it's their counselor, it's all of the rules. And it becomes too intense. And so then so then expectations rise, and what it seems like it's happened to you as a game, what would have happened to many of people before you after you, there's then this realization that actually they're not really my true friends. And actually, if they would have been in some ways, but self were selfish beings at the end of the day, and we're in a very selfish sport. You know, it's an individualized sport, I think, coaches think quite selfishly parents do players do, it's got the makings of a lot, lot of toxicity, you know, whereas, you know, the team, teamwork doesn't always come into it. And that's what I love about team events and team events from a young age and we should have team events all the way through, but it can easily take us into some dark places. So I guess the point of people listening is keep other things in your life. You know, keep the sports keep the heat, you know, school as long as you can keep other friendships don't don't bring everything into your whole world into into tennis. But if you can look back and share with us what were some of the darkest moments you went to, and how dark did it get?

Dave Hodgetts  39:42

Some things I experienced at the back end of me playing was that I actually had a few panic attacks on the court. So and it was actually in the it was at a period that I was So, at the back end really, when I was actually starting to not actually, I was playing some pretty good stuff. And there were, you know, I would go on to the court and literally think I'm having a heart attack on the court. And there were there were points where I mean, I didn't know what it was until I've aged a little bit. I, I genuinely had to stop. But obviously, my opponent was thinking that, you know, you've got 20 seconds like serve, and I'm there thinking like, mate, I think I'm going to collapse on this court. And I work. And again, it comes down to the pressure that that I probably put on myself. And Only now do I realize what was going on almost, you know, I was in a pretty bad place with how I started to suffer from from stuff like that on the court, which was, which was not ideal. I mean, I think that tennis, there is not with everybody. But you have to be a little bit obsessed to be a tennis player, and a little bit addicted to doing what you do. You know, I would say I was addicted to playing tennis to being the best tennis player that I could be, maybe you know, obsessed or whatever, you know, you get up every day, as I said to do what you do every single day is quite extreme. And for me, you know, I could easily get addicted in a good or a bad way. And I think that happened with business as well like my focus on Triple Two. And what I'm trying to say is if you're focused in the right things, it can be the best friend that you have, and a really good skill. But when I stopped playing tennis, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And I felt pretty lost. I hadn't got the A levels, I didn't want to go to college. And I'd say that the sort of like six month period after I stopped playing tennis was the darkest period of my life really. It was, it was pretty horrific. I actually found you when I was in London, and I'd stopped playing. And that was probably the darkest place that I'd ever been in. And you might not remember me phoning you. And I think like the point I'm trying to stay on, I'm actually like, struggling to hold it in little bit talking about it. But you know, when I go on about the influence of people in that moment, that it was a horrific moment for me. And as I said, I won't go into it really. I actually picked up the phone and called you for input and to try and like help in that situation. And it was 10 years ago, so you won't remember but I remember I do.

Daniel Kiernan  42:54

I do remember how do we stop this like it within the industry? Because it's an it's I had Pat Cash on, you know, Wimbledon champion. Yeah. And he talked about the same thing. And it was it was this call, bit that we hold our own self esteem, up against our results and up against the perception of how we're doing and how what people think of us. And, you know, we're putting our whole life on that. And, you know, I have a son that plays tennis at age 12. And, you know, he comes back and he said the things he's saying, you know, it's like, Oh, my goodness, no, I don't want you going down this road of saying these things, you know, you're a wonderful kid. Like it's it stop comparing yourself to other people, you know, just enjoy what you're doing, you know, and, and I've got a lot of experience and I'm trying to, to feed those messages, you know, same with, you know, working at the top end of the game now, you know, we're giving these messages but it's, it's not easy. It's, it's really easy, and it almost feels like in some ways you have you have benefited from somewhat early recognization of this dark place. Like it like almost it almost feels that most people seem to go through through this journey. And it's like, oh, I'm doing this this is what I'm doing and then because I was there as well you know and I started gambling when I stopped playing, you know, and I think it's it's it's something that in it took me into it into a dark place for a good period of time. And luckily with the right support and family around and an amazing wife I was able to come out and use that energy into, into something really productive, which was subtle Tennis Academy. And in a nutshell, is a very similar story to yours, you know, that it's very, very similar. And I think it's quite a common, I think it's quite a common story. And that's why I think it's so good that you can open up and you can talk about that, because I think there's so many people that can learn, learn from it. And it's, it's that ability to be able to grab a hold of yourself and ultimately control the controllables yourself. Right? This is, it's about me, it's about what I'm trying to do here. And what what are those bits in my control, let's stop worrying about all the bits that are out of my control, which tend to be the, which tend to be the things that throw us into those dark places.

Dave Hodgetts  45:52

I agree. And also, I think we've, we've meal we've probably all tennis players is it's pretty black and white, like success or failure. It's not like a, you know, like you said, like a sort of like a steady curve, where we're just looking to sort of improve at whatever we're looking to do. Every day, when I finished playing tennis. I literally thought I was the biggest failure. I thought I'd let my you know, the all the generic stuff, I'd let my parents down. You know, my, my parents were very, very supportive and backed me massively with with my tennis, they were. They were amazing. And, and I sort of go, Okay, well, I've let my parents down. I've let all these people down. These are the these are the thoughts that I think were probably pretty generic with a lot of people. And then I was like, Well, I'm a failure, I haven't achieved what I wanted to achieve. And, and then I sort of, you know, you get yourself into that rut, and then, and then I look at it and go, Well, what am I going to do with my life? Because yesterday I was trying to be a tennis player. So when we

Daniel Kiernan  47:01

You lose the label, you lose the label

Dave Hodgetts  47:05

Yep, you lose your identity. Massively, and then that's obviously where the the downward slope starts. And also, I think, because it's so black and white, the downward slope is pretty drastic. I mean, for me, it was anyway, it wasn't like, this guy's struggling a bit. It was like, Where's David, like, the guy, I mean, I didn't, I literally locked out of tennis for about three or four years when I stopped. I mean, I didn't want to hear from anyone other than when I spoke to you. But I didn't want to hear from ex-players, or I didn't want to know what was going on. It was so traumatic, the my, like the whole situation. But then where I was lucky, is I had great people around me that helped me out of it. And, you know, I am determined and focused, and I use that sort of tennis player or that, you know, that ambition in me. And I said, You know what, you know, failure is a terrible word that you shouldn't use, you know, tennis got me to a really good place. And I learned so many things. But now I want to try and be the best person that I can be in, in my business venture. And I managed to break that sort of negative spiral by having a new focus. And that was my focus was okay, I want to set this up. And I want to make it really successful. I want to have lots of shops. And I want to be you know, I want to win awards. And I want you know, to be recognized for that side of what I've achieved as well. I think that's how I sort of managed to get out of that spiral that where what you said is right at the start is life goes on every single day. There's not like a, there's a start and an end, but it's not every day. And that's where I need to keep finding new things to be excited about and to keep, you know, looking forward to, because like I said, I think that, that I've got a very sort of obsessed attitude. And that can be good, and it can be bad. So I want to put all my focus into the good things and keep developing. But I think with like tennis players and getting people out of that, that sort of place. I don't know what the solution is necessarily, because you can tell people something that they have to believe in. And I think the parents are massive, they have to buy into it as well, because you know what parents can be like? And like all the ones that you coach are all amazing, I'm sure. I mean, it's when I look back and think of some of the things that parents do on the side of the court. It's actually it's actually quite comical. Sort of how serious people take like the under 30 and under 14, you know, oh my god, like the one parent, obviously not naming names dragging his son off the court when he lost the match. It's just embarrassing. But anyway, there's loads of great parents as well. But But I think it's the mindset of it being a marathon, not a sprint. and very much with me, it was like, I almost had an alarm set on when I was like 18. And if I'm not at a certain level at 18, I'm in big trouble. And that's just not true at all. You know, there were probably people that were very similar in standard to me that are still playing at a very, very, very high level. And

Daniel Kiernan  50:19

Jonny o'mara today.

Dave Hodgetts  50:21

Yeah, and I remember playing him, it was, I think I was four love up in the third set, and he decided to pull out because he didn't want to actually, you know,

Daniel Kiernan  50:32

Johnny, he eats, he's taking the wind and right and rightly so. Can I? Can I ask you, Dave, do you? Do you look back at your tennis fondly? Now that you've, you've had time to reflect over the last eight, nine years?

Dave Hodgetts  50:46

Yes, yeah, I do. I mean, I, when I was sort of 12, 13, I had a choice between tennis and football, and I don't regret the choice I made at all. And there are obviously things that I would have done differently, that I learned to that unbelievable, you know, life lessons from playing tennis, and things that I've done, you know, I can say that the stuff that's not so good, you know, like, everyone can but you know, traveling around Europe or whatever the world, and doing all those things at an age when you know, 99.9% of people aren't doing, I wouldn't have changed, you know, I would have changed some things, but the principle of what I did, I wouldn't of change.

Daniel Kiernan  51:31

Good, because that's, that's, that's also important, because I think, you know, we've, we've, we've talked about your journey, and we've linked it to mine a little bit as well. And, you know, it doesn't always sound glamorous, but it's, it's important that we get the realities out there. But there's very few people that I speak to that regret it, you know, and I think, you know, the, the upside of going through it, and like I say, sharing and people learning through it are massive. So I'm gonna ask you a question that I, I asked, I'm gonna ask you two questions that I asked all my guests in, over the last few episodes. And the first one is, what's one question that nobody has asked you. But you've always thought that they should have asked you?

Dave Hodgetts  52:23

I suppose maybe. Are you? Are you happy? I think I mean, that's a question that my mum and dad might ask me, but that perhaps isn't probably asked enough. Potentially.

Daniel Kiernan  52:38

I've got a great question, Dave. So are you happy?

Dave Hodgetts  52:45

Yes, yeah, I am. I think overall. Overall, I am. There's loads of, you know, we always want to improve and do things differently. You know, there are always things that can be improved in all of our lives. But yeah, there's a lot of good things. I got married last year, we might start a family soon. Who knows? And I'm in a pretty happy place. Yeah. So it's all good.

Daniel Kiernan  53:14

Good. And if you were to retire tomorrow, what would you want people to say at your retirement party?

Dave Hodgetts  53:25

Probably that I was funny. Caring, Peter crouch, crouch doing the robot. I think, really, that they thought I was a genuinely caring person, that people were glad that they had me in their life, and I was a positive energy. I think that's the main thing, you know, whether people thought that I was actually somebody that that made a positive difference to them, and saw that sort of personality traits in me that those I've got to be honest, like, the way I think now is more philosophical. I don't get me wrong, I want to succeed in business, I want to make money, I want to do all those things. But that ultimately, I'm not stupid. When it comes to my death bed. People will not care about my successes. At that degree, it will be what sort of person I was

Daniel Kiernan  54:25

Very nice. And I as someone who knows you very well, I can safely say that that's exactly what people would say that your retirement day, you know, it's a long, long way to go. You know, and I think anyone that's listened to you today, as well, you know, it really I think you've been really inspirational you know, with the the old story the way you've shared it so openly, you know, and I certainly will be half of everyone that listens to this podcast massively. Thank you for that, Dave. So what, what's next, what's next what's next for you? But for Triple Two what's, you know, where where does this all go? You know, where do you take it because you're a young pup, you're a young pup that's already achieved so much. So, so much to look ahead to. So what what's next for you?

Dave Hodgetts  55:15

So, again, I'm not sure if I should be saying this but I'm hoping obviously I've done the process we've we've Triple Two and Kooks. So we've, we've listed in the UK, it's all done really well. But But I'm really looking to move on and do my new next thing. So I'm looking to probably move on from Triple Two hand over the reins to some new person or whatever. And I want to open in a few new businesses, I want to do a new coffee brand. I'd like to use my tennis background and do something in sport or gyms potentially. And then, you know, maybe we can link up I want to have like a sort of a podcast side of things and stuff as well. So I've sort of got like a relatively clear plan from a, from a business perspective, what I want to do,

Daniel Kiernan  56:08

Dave, we need we need a rival. I'm sick of winning the bloody sports podcast, and

Dave Hodgetts  56:12

I can't I there's a number of reasons I can't complete, but I couldn't get in touch with the people that you get in touch with. One, so definitely not. And then from a family perspective, like I said, we are married now. We'll be starting a family soon as well. So life will change.

Daniel Kiernan  56:29

Dave they've brilliant. And you know what comes next? You know, we can't we can't let you go without the famous quick fire round. So are you ready for Control the Controllables? quick fire round? Tea or Coffee?

Dave Hodgetts  56:48

Coffee

Daniel Kiernan  56:49

singles or doubles?

Dave Hodgetts  56:51

Singles

Daniel Kiernan  56:52

Serve or return?

Dave Hodgetts  56:55

Serve

Daniel Kiernan  56:57

Roger or Rafa

Dave Hodgetts  56:59

Roger

Daniel Kiernan  57:00

Underarm serve or not?

Dave Hodgetts  57:03

Yes.

Daniel Kiernan  57:05

Net cord or not?

Dave Hodgetts  57:07

Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  57:09

Serena or Venus,

Dave Hodgetts  57:11

Serena

Daniel Kiernan  57:13

And medical timeout or not?

Dave Hodgetts  57:15

Depends who's taken them? Because some of them are definitely a bit dodgy. So I'll say no.

Daniel Kiernan  57:21

What does control the controllables mean to you?

Dave Hodgetts  57:27

To just be in control of what you can control. So to focus on yourself and not to focus on things that are not, you know, that you're not responsible for?

Daniel Kiernan  57:38

And what's one rule change that you would have in tennis?

Dave Hodgetts  57:43

But the tiebreaker at six all to be to ten controversial?

Daniel Kiernan  57:48

And who should our next guest be on Control the Controllables?

Dave Hodgetts  57:53

I don't know. I mean, I mentioned Bob Smith. I mean, he to me, he's a pretty, you know, inspiring in what he does, so I think you'd be pretty good.

Daniel Kiernan  58:04

Rob Smith is on the list. Let's get him on there. Dave Hodgetts you've been, you've been a pleasure, man. And from from a personal side, it's it's amazing, I'm incredibly proud of, of you, and what you've achieved, but not about what you've achieved, about about who you are becoming who you who you have become over the last few years, you know, how you've taken all of those lessons from this, this tennis journey, you know, whichever way we look at that, look at it, it's never easy. You know, nobody has an easy, easy journey. But I also strongly believe that the investment is worth it, you know, and you are testament to that the return on that by throwing your heart and soul into it. You know, when you get on the other side? You know, you see what a fine young gentleman you've become someone that that's doing some great things. So the very best of luck and a big, big thank you for, for sharing so openly.

Dave Hodgetts  59:00

No problem. Thanks for having me, Dan.

Daniel Kiernan  59:02

Well, he's grown up hasn't he? He's done it. He's done. All right for himself has old Dave,

Victoria Kiernan  59:07

That's what I said to you, isn't it? He's not the 17 year old that I remember anymore.

Daniel Kiernan  59:12

Yeah, and it is it's just it's so good. And, Dave, if you're listening a big well done, we're a proud tennis parents over here in Spain and, and everyone at the academy is as well, not just for what he's achieved, but I think the way that he articulated it, you know, and it was quite it was quite moving, actually listening to it and, and just hearing that all of all of these experiences I say it a lot. There's always there's no such thing as a bad experience, or a good experience. They're just experiences because they all just filter into what I guess becomes our perspective, our personality, our character, and he's used his challenging experiences, to turn them around into into being In a, obviously a brilliant boss and a brilliant entrepreneur who's who's going on and doing doing great things in the world. So it's really, really lovely to see.

Victoria Kiernan  1:00:09

We've talked about that quite a lot. Don't we have those transferable skills from 10 S, and he's just given this brilliant example of how he's used those. And he's such a inspiring example. I think, like listening to him, I was like, wow, the boys done really well. Just someone that has come out, finished their tennis playing days just does not know what to do. Like you said he hadn't hadn't gone to college. And I remember that feeling well, myself. We talked about it after the Pat Cash episode. And you mentioned that speaking to Dave as well, how he felt, you know, winning Wimbledon and still felt his whole identity was wrapped up in tennis and winning and losing matches. And I talked about how I felt when I came out of college and stopped playing tennis. I was like, Well, who am I? Now, you know, if I'm not Vicki, the tennis player, like, what am I who am I and I knew what I wanted to do. And I still felt like that. So for me, it was so interesting and inspiring. And I felt when I was driving listening to it, it's so important that this is normalized. And people are hearing these stories, because every year there's going to be players stopping every month, every week, every day. And you know, how he felt is, is exactly how nearly every person feels when they stop playing tennis,

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:28

Or stop doing anything, I think and it's it's not just words, it's real life. And that's what I loved about it. And I guess, as as you go through this, and you get a bit older, and you're in an industry, and obviously we run a tennis academy, so we're speaking to parents and players and, you know, all the time, but to be able to see it actually happened. And it does, you know, we could probably get 100 Dave Hodgetts on on the podcast, you know, and it doesn't mean that then success is that selling selling your business. I think I think what what the real success here is, is that the tennis has set them up exactly like say, and, and I think the other thing that you're touching on there, Vicki is identity. And I think it's massive. And it's something I reflect on, you know, I did I not get out of tennis because I didn't want to stop being Dan the tennis man. You know, maybe I don't I don't know, you know,

Victoria Kiernan  1:02:28

I was thinking the same thing, how many people keep going like don't make the decision to stop, even though it might be the right but

Daniel Kiernan  1:02:36

Within the industry as well. So I think the quite typical route, and we're getting into a much bigger subject here. But there's a lot of naff tennis coaches out there. If I've insulted your Well, that means you know, you enough, so do something about it. But that because they don't have the passion. And they've actually lost their love of the sport, you know, they've burnt themselves out, you know, and that's what we're talking about here. And Dave was burned out, you know, he, he wanted to have a team around him. And he realized, and that was really telling how he said that the story of him playing in Liverpool. And he realized that who he thought was his mates weren't his mates. And maybe they were, but they were just being lads. And they just wanted to get home. So they were cheering against him. And you when you get to that point, and you in an individual sport like tennis, which is brutal you approach to burnout. Now the easy thing for a lot of people to do is just, you continue in tennis, you start coaching, the money's okay to start with, it doesn't get much better. There's not a there's not really career pathways in tennis, and then you get stuck because you then get a mortgage, you then get married, you then have responsibilities. And almost part of me thinks the fact that Dave got into such a dark place, got him out of the sport, and then he was able to then use the skills in in something else, which I think there's something interesting in that. And, and like I say, I certainly was in some dark places about tennis, you know, and I absolutely love tennis. Now, my my joy of love of tennis now is completely different to when I was younger. But I think a lot of people don't ever really get out of that. And the point I'm making, and it's a bit harsh, saying enough coaches because there's enough people in all fields is those coaches are passing on that negative energy and that negative feeling they have about the sport. And I just think it's amazing what Dave's done with it.

Victoria Kiernan  1:04:41

Well, he said he had that edge, didn't he over his competitors switch. And you know, you know, we were both at college in America, student athletes in America are handpicked by the biggest companies you know, they really see and appreciate and value athletes and how hard they have to work in their sport and balancing school University and all the things he was talking about, you know, the being able to put in the long hours the hard work the brutal he called it brutal than the the brutal hours brutal, hard work to get his business off the ground. And resilience was another word that came out all these things that, you know, kids don't even realize that they're learning and developing as they're playing tennis playing any sport really. Yeah. And he talked about that edge that sets him apart for the rest, which I thought was really interesting. But going back, sorry, back to when he stopped, you know, we're really hammering this point home. It was the him saying he felt like a failure that made me really, or hit a hit something listening to it in terms of how many people feeling feeling that and stopping playing. And he said he felt like he didn't reach his goals. His potential, you feel like you're letting your parents down coaches, whoever so many people, that is a really, really strong feeling that so many people feel I mean, just just think of, you know, all the parents that are Academy, all the players are Academy, and there's sacrifices that the families are making, the players are making a financial, emotional, everything. And then to get to 8090 and 20 intersection, I'm not going to play anymore, there is a massive kind of burden on players shoulders. And it was it's so nice to hear Dave story to say, well, actually, it wasn't, you know, all these things, you think they've wasted your money, you've wasted your parents time, all these kind of things. Actually, no, you haven't, look what he's gone on to achieve. And, and it's used all the skills, look at what he's gotten to achieve. I think it's really a really important and inspiring story for players of a similar age or any age really to hear.

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:47

It's an investment. Yeah, and, and that's, and that's the message we've got to get across that the problem is you try and get that across and apparent and players who are not me, that's not me, I'm the superstar I'm going to, you know, I'm the anomaly that's going to go on and when, when women, I don't give me that negative energy, it can it can be viewed on his neck as negative. But that's what it is. It's an investment. It's an investment in your future. And it's an incredible sport. We've got stories like Dave's that show that there's many, many, many, we call it the success equation. Everyone is successful. If you throw yourself at something, you get in the right environments, learn you learn fast, fail, learn, you know, and you and you take that with you. And and that is the bit that we're talking about the normalization in our sport, of of the end game. It's not it's not the end of the world. It's a continuum that we've been talking about, and how do we help tennis players and it'll be the same in other sports, transitioned into into something else and understand that's a part of their journey, and understand that it's all success. It doesn't, it doesn't have to be deemed deemed as failure, because failure affects our self esteem, self confidence, and so many other things. And that's the bit that sends so many people into a dark place. It's a serious thing. And it's it's

Victoria Kiernan  1:08:17

it's players understanding that it is exactly right. It is part of the journey. It's not Oh, it's all ended. Now. What am I going to do? Why on earth am I going to do it? That is part of the process part of the journey. You say to the kids that you kind of me all the time, you know, your tennis career is only going to be for a certain amount of time, and then you've got 3040 50 years afterwards, you need to have a plan for what you're going to do after that and be understanding that it will come to an end. I think it is and that's okay. Big is did he say if he's still playing?

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:53

No, I don't I don't think I did ask him that.

Victoria Kiernan  1:08:55

He knows his tenants though. Still, he called. Sorry, Dave. I feel like I've robbed you of your French Open predictions which were bang on. He called Iga and Djokovic. So he obviously still no, he still knows the game very. He knows who the favorites were. Well, yeah, he did say they were boring. Was that the boring prediction? But he got them right. He got them right. Not only one person on our panel for French Open got it right.

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:21

I'm telling you, he's going to be like the over 35 world champion over 40s. You know, he comes out a tennis falls out of love with it goes and smashes it in another field, and then goes, Hey, I've got a bit of money. Now. What do I do when my money comes back to SotoTennis academy? I saw his backhand out and before you know it, he's in Turkey with the other 35 World Champs. We could talk forever on this. It's, it's as you can hear a passionate subject of ours. It's behind all of our philosophies at the SotoTennis Academy. It's why we set it up. You know this, it's an educational Academy. It's not just about the tennis and we say that In the in the way that absolutely it's about being the best tennis player you can be. But it's about understanding all these transferable skills. It's very close to our heart. So thank you for unlocking the passion Dave. And we hope you listening at home, have the same have the same passion on this subject. Send us your thoughts. And you'll be hearing from us again in a few days because as we said at the start of the show, it's Wimbledon. It's SW 19.

Victoria Kiernan  1:10:29

I almost went into the theme tune then.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:32

It's no Sue Barker. Got it. Strawberries and Cream. It's Pimm's and lemonade. It's, it's, it's, as I said on the last one, it's for me itchy eyes, because the grass courts are being cut, but it's always a brilliant event. And we will be bringing you our panels in the next couple of days to preview. What again, I'm sure it's gonna be an amazing Grand Slam. So watch out for that one. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables