#192: French Open 2023 Review

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 192 of control the controllables and I'm sure we've all just about recovered from that amazing two weeks in Paris. We've had Novak Djokovic, moving to the greatest male player of all time. I know that's gonna wind some of you up but I can only speak on statistics 23 Grand Slam titles to his name, and then Iga Swiatek, now three times out of four years winning and Roland Garros, were they the big favourites? Did our panel pick that beforehand? Well, if you did listen your workout that we went against Novak Djokovic, apart from Gaby Dabrowski. But the rest of us should hang our head and enjoy him for not seeing the great man was going to go and win his 23rd and make history. And I'm so pleased to say that I have the amazing panelists back from the preview. We've got Freddy Nielsen, the Davis Cup captain for Denmark, but also the 2012 men's doubles champion at Wimbledon, he brings such an incredible insight and knowledge to the game we've got Gaby Dabrowski it has been as high as four in the world and women's doubles, winning masters 1000 events over the last 12 months. And it's someone who's still very much at the height of the game. So to have someone who's on the inside of the locker room was part of the panel is absolutely brilliant. And then her good friend Emily Webley Smith, who has now been ranked I believe I saw the other day. It was something absolutely crazy like 23 years in a row, that she's had a WTA ranking after qualifying in the singles at the Surbiton event last week, and is still going strong top 200 in the world in doubles, age 38 gives gives her all and he's still got a bright future in the game. She really does. And for her to be able to bring all of that knowledge to us is invaluable. And Kieron Vorster, their fitness coach of Tim Henman, back in the day and when Ferreira and most recently, Liam Broady and Dan Evans, he's not afraid to speak up is our Kieron and watch this space for this episode, because he is on one, he's on one. But he says what he says is very good. And again, it might split opinion, but it's an opinion that you need to hear. And then we've got Piotr Szierputowski a Piotr was the coach of Iga Swiatek when she won her first French Open. He's now the coach of Shelby Rogers, again, someone who comes at the game from a bit of a different mindset. He's got a very wise head on young shoulders, and is just a brilliant guest for us to have, in that mix up our incredible panel who jump in to lots of topics, lots of subjects there was there was lots of advice in there on this one, actually, yes, there's entertainment. And there's talking of stories. As we go through what a story telling French Open it was the you know, the storylines were out in their absolute doesn't from that from the word go. And we do get into all of those storylines, but also share their panel share lots of messages that you do not want to miss. But before I pass you on to the panel, I also, it's a big part of the culture at Control the Controllables, and also SotoTennis Academy out in Spain, that we share, you know, we, we love the sport and everything that goes with this sport, and good friend of ours, Fabio at functional tennis, I just want to give him a shout out for the great work that he is doing with his podcast. And if you haven't come across it yet the Functional Tennis podcast, he's got some amazing guests on. And I strongly recommend that you guys, once you've listened to all of these episodes, there should be no shortage of brilliant tennis content out there because you head over there to Functional Tennis podcast, and you'll be able to get more brilliant guests and we look forward to working and collaborating with Fabio down the line. So well done there. Keep up the great work and hope everyone enjoys his brilliant shows as well. But now I'm gonna pass you over to my French Open panelists for the review 2023. So a French Open panelists a big welcome to control the controllables Oh, you're doing

Freddie Nielsen  04:44

Great, thanks.

Daniel Kiernan  04:47

And it's very exciting guys to have you all back. You know this I don't think we've ever had that that all of our preview and review guests are the same I am so we get a laugh at some people we get to celebrate. I can see Gaby already smiling in the corner there to celebrate picking the two winners. But to start off with and I've just said it off air. There was a lot of storylines there was a lot that was going on in Paris. There was also some beautiful sunshine, but who wants to put their hands up who wants to talk about the first storyline that captured their imagination Mr. Freddy Nielsen

Freddie Nielsen  05:29

well, I just got to put it out there that I'm horribly I told it in the group. I'm horribly ashamed by my pick beforehand because as the tournament started, I started to realize how on earth could I have written off Novak and got seduced by his weak pre tournaments because obviously, that was the massive storyline he went to 23 and I think as soon as he beat Fucsovics and was absolutely dominating, I was like, Oh, I have horribly and criminally and disappointedly written him off before the tournament started and I should have known better and we all just saw why he is so dominating

Daniel Kiernan  06:12

Rewind the tapes, the French Open 2022 And nobody picked Rafael Nadal either. So I know Gaby picked Novak Djokovic. So well done, Gabby, the rest of us went against him. So is that not something PRT? That maybe in tennis we like to do we like to we're always looking for the next the next thing and maybe we're getting too far ahead of ourselves and we don't give these legends of the game enough credit and the experience that they bring in such such events.

Piotr Sierzputowski  06:45

I think we look too much into recent history what they did in the last couple of tournaments which sometimes doesn't play any role in the end so it's like we never know he was ready he said that in Rome that he feels ready so he was ready

Freddie Nielsen  07:03

I'll just say that the slam we I also forgot the slam is just a different beast. It's a completely different tournament to all the other tournaments and I've always said this never rule out the big ones the Tom Brady's the Tigers the Rogers and same with Novak until he's off the court you literally can't write them off because he's he's different material.

Daniel Kiernan  07:23

And it's not as if it's not as if he's form was that bad either going into it, but but jumping into that in terms of the young guns obviously Freddy we went with Holger Rune I think a couple of people also went the Alcaraz route as well we even had an Emily going for Sinner I believe. Oh, yeah, well, that one too much Rune and Alcaraz seemed to fall down physically as well Gabby, you know, so from a from a player's point of view, and I know you're not playing best to five sets but even even in the doubles you're doubling the amount of tennis you're playing by going from playing sets and a tiebreaker with sudden death deuce to then play best the three sets How different is it with the with the stress the tension, everything that goes with a Grand Slam? And how much do you think the nerves and the format of the five sets affected Rune is and also Carlos Alcaraz?

Gaby Dabrowski  08:30

I am not sure if my opinion on best five and slams or not I don't know what I prefer as a fan to watch. I think there's something to be said for the epic battles that you get in a fifth set but then at the same time you have this issue of some players maybe failing physically but at the same time I think for example in Alcaraz's situation I think it was more nerves driven than it was he was physically unfit. So I mean, personally anytime that I've cramped when I played singles or even like a very very long doubles match and really bad weather, I cramped because I was too nervous. I'm not I mean of course physicality has you know a small part to play but it's because of the tension of being so tight for too long. Especially when when the weather is warmer, but I don't think the weather was overly warm in Paris it was warmer than what we might be used to but it's nothing like a US Open in September or in Australia. end of January so I think I think definitely an owl grasses case it was nerves related. I'm not sure for rune what it was, like we spoke in the last podcast that he seemed to have a lot of belief. So I don't know if maybe he had a little bit. Not too much belief, but like, just needed to come back down to earth a little bit and just maybe play I don't know

Daniel Kiernan  10:01

Rune, I remember seeing him after the first round in the cafeteria. And he was hobbling. And I actually saw more stairs any any. I'm sure that's kind of a tennis player thing after a long match and you've come off court. But I remember thinking to myself quite early on in the first week, it didn't look like he was in the best of shape just after the match. I don't know if there's something in that. But I want to pick up on the five sets because that was one of the big things for me that stood out. And I am a bit of a sucker for emotions and history and the whole way that it builds a tennis match builds and we add them on face match, which fall of down on the third and he's like winning on one leg hitting a winner and the crowd are gone crazy. And it was just for me that that drama. So I looked into it and I thought it felt like there was more five set matches than we normally have. And actually 33% of the first round matches. So 21 of the first round matches went to five sets, which is which is is incredible. And I compared that to last last year, Roland Garros, and it was it was 14% 14 times it went to five sets last year 21 This year. In the first round it in the first week. This year, there was 30 matches that went to five sets and last year 19. Now the Aussie Open. Just have a look at that to give a bit of context was 15 in the first round this year, and 25 in the first week. Roland Garros second week there was one ruling against sarin Dulo. In so we hear people saying that actually and I had the podcast that actually goes out tomorrow, Andy Jarrett, the Wimbledon referee for many years, he proposed that the first we shouldn't be five sets. But second, we should be all five set match of men and women's. That was an opinion that he gave, but then we miss out on those 21 or those 30 Incredible spectacles and it felt like the noise going around Roland Garros was like oh my god, there's another five set match. And the crowd were gone crazy. And they were booing anyone that would move, you know, and they were making all this noise. And it just felt to me like it was a really fun, dramatic first week. I don't know what your thoughts are on that Emily and five set matches.

Emily Webley-Smith  12:31

I think that we all underestimate the preparation that it takes to maintain the level over those five sets and the work that goes in physically to those guys being able to play that. But then in Islam with the recovery to then do that with a day in between only. I think that's why like Freddie says with a slam being a different beast, I think for those guys who have had experience of five set matches, it makes such a difference going into it if I'm sure there's a number of those guys going into into those that first round battles that you were saying that have never played five sets. And you can prepare for it. But you know, longer practices, more endurance, more speed, endurance, all the work in the legs. But I think until you play that and until you feel it on the clay, you don't know how how it's gonna be. And I think absolut just literally looking at the intensity that the guys were playing. And in that first set and second set with Alcaraz Djokovic match I just feel that from their point of view, I think we can't, you can't underestimate talk, which is experience in those situations. And I remember he said he was hurting physically after the second set in the interview, I think he took a medical at the end of the second right, so his right quad or something. But yeah, from a physical point of view, and from the tennis and the level of concentration and how long that actually is over that period of time. I'm the same as you down I love the five set. I love those kinds of battles. And I love to see that spirit and that you know, the crowd and everyone getting behind it in the mom face type situation as a fan, but if I'm watching at home, I'll sort of watch the first set and a half and then go away and do something and come back at two sets all or something because I can't sit down for five sets and watch five sets of tennis.

Daniel Kiernan  14:22

I watched from four all in the fifth, I didn't watch it all Yeah.

Emily Webley-Smith  14:27

So I can I'm like we gabbed on that I can see where it's from a fan point of view. But then from a player point of view, I respect so much the amount of work that has gone into them being able to maintain a physical level and a tennis level and a mental level over that period of time. And that's where I think the top guys who have had that experience have got such an advantage in slams where which I think we did miss a little bit go with the with the preview of how important that actually is.

Daniel Kiernan  14:58

And Vossie to bring you in and which are talking about the physicality and and what it takes to play best the five sets over two weeks you know we underestimated Djokovic I think we all agree to that the experience that it takes the way you look after your body you know we had big Rune and Alcara supporters in here that their bodies failed them both it seemed, you know, it felt like both of them certainly Alcaraz in those last two sets against Djokovic, Rune and really looked from the word go against Ruud that he had no chance he had nothing in the tank. He looked like he was turning into Stefan Edberg to try and get through the match serve volley coming into the net. But he was he was unable to really play his own game. from a physical standpoint, how, how do you prepare an athlete for a grand slam seven matches best to five sets. And how different is that now when the rest of the year you're not really playing that amount of tennis,

Kieron Vorster  15:56

Firstly, Freddie and I had a good conversation about that, actually, I think it was after the Rune Ruud match. I always conditioned the athletes say. So I'm working with Dan Evans at the moment. So you know, last week, and this week, it was to condition him to basically go to our hellhole or for two weeks. So that he feels that when when obviously he's playing this five set match, he's never going to go to the darkness that he's going in within these two weeks. So the training prescription is, is very extreme. However, when when you're going into a slam, there's a lot more other variables that come into play. So obviously Rune had that seven, six in the fifth, the match before and probably, you know, not just that maybe took out physically but took out emotionally and mentally. And, and then, you know, obviously, playing Casper Casper was like the Iceman, he got off to a good start. And he's, you know, they had to have a four one, but you know, like, you know, obviously, Freddie said it was really good that he won in Rome, which as I said, I did disagree with, but the conditions were easily brushed off, because they had no comparison to what was happening in Paris. And then obviously, obviously, with all the things I always say the ability to perform is dictated by the ability to recover. So it's just looking at the best recovery modalities whilst doing it in a grand plan that is going to give you athlete put them in good stead to perform when they go out and play obviously, 48 hours later. So I would always, you know, obviously I am playing with ever was is looking at you know, and with Liam that I work with looking at what recovery modalities in place, so that they have the best opportunity when they come back in their in their precious state possible, both mentally and physically. I think that I think I think I think the occasion got to him. I think there's a lot of hype. And I think I think everybody you know, including myself, and estimated to pass the job of it and what a phenomenal tennis player he is and continues to be.

Daniel Kiernan  18:08

I have to ask you about the the great insight what you're saying about what you do with level? How close would you do that to a Grand Slam? So the hell week or the hell fortnight? How much? Yeah, how much recovery time would you give to him before he then I guess to get fresh to then be ready to play the Grand Slam?

Kieron Vorster  18:32

Yeah, so so so obviously, obviously, this week's is our whole and then you know, he will play for down Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday going into Queens. And then you know, the idea is that if he you know if he has a fantastic you know, Queens event, you'll have a couple days off at the start of the week before Wimbledon that Monday, Tuesday and then start lining up Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday going into going into into Wimbledon. And so you're basically creating the foundation or trying to create some form of foundation based understanding of the physicality and mentality that is required by the fact that probably, you know, two to three weeks out out from the event and then hopefully he your player has enough matches, you know, going in so that the week before you know he can really focus on tapering down so that you know he's in a good good frame of mind mentally physically, and in a good place of the game.

Emily Webley-Smith  19:30

Vossie can I just ask you on the Alcaraz situation. Do you think that there is a possibility that they under his team or whoever decides those things underestimated slightly something with his minerals with his nutrition with his just something slightly in the days leading up to the match when he cramped with his recovery, or do you think it was purely Do you think it's so scientific at that point with team in place, that it's not possible for them to have made a mistake where they've underestimated slightly, how much he's taking on board and fluids and minerals and everything is regard to cramping, or was purely the nerves and the situation that he was in with the intensity that Djokovic was playing.

Kieron Vorster  20:18

Yeah, I mean, obviously, without me without me knowing the fact that it seems to me that the occasion got to him because basically, I think he's won at the US Open a lot tougher. You know, his quarters and semis, you know, he played you played 2 five set matches finishing or whatever, it was four or five in the morning. You never played that day, he never went to the court that day. And then the following day, went to the court, you know, I'm playing this match and he had to back there. So I think the adversity of what he handled in New York was that was was was a lot tougher than what he was having, I guess at the French

Emily Webley-Smith  20:49

Yeah, and I don't mean from like a physical preparation fitness point of view. I mean, like from the natural like, mineral, like fluids recovering.

Kieron Vorster  20:59

I'd be very surprised if they dropped the ball on that. I think that's not my point. My point being is that obviously as the US so when when he had when he had this longer run there must have been pumping with certain minerals and vitamins through through that through that day and they would have probably followed the same protocol or formula that they're using to yourself and but I think I do think that you know, the the occasion got to him in terms of the height move into the whole hype around that match was massive and everybody was talking about it. And it never never lived up to the expectation or what everyone was was hoping it would be and I think it was a combination of obviously Novak playedTactically the right way and, and then Alcatraz self imploding I guess is the way I've put it.

Daniel Kiernan  21:53

And Emily that 130 euros doesn't go far. On the credential. He's got a big team does Alcaraz he shares that 130 euros among six people. Do she? Come on? She was 25 years.

Piotr Sierzputowski  22:12

You to do wanted to spend five years there. The food was so bad this year.

Daniel Kiernan  22:18

come on, give us some insight. Give us some insight. What tell us about the foods that the French Open

Piotr Sierzputowski  22:24

Everything for the worst. Terrible this year and I every single time I'm not gonna lie. The worst we've had and it's like, it's terrible. So I actually you can ask Shelby, I don't think she spent 130 once. I think she was always like, you can have it I don't need anything I gonna eat at the hotel.

Daniel Kiernan  22:50

So Where's where's the bed? Which is the best slam for food for players and coaches. Oh, Australian

Piotr Sierzputowski  22:56

Open by far so yeah, Australian Open but then Wimbledon for strawberries come on.

Daniel Kiernan  23:03

130 euros on strawberries and cream. You've got you got that to look forward to. The one I'd like to bring you in Gaby is? I'm sure you picked it up. I certainly did was I've mentioned it. The French crowd. I don't know what got into them this year. They know they like they used to boo. They used to always boo someone in the final maybe. But it felt like almost every match. They were just having a good old boo and said switch. That was fine. I think it was quite it's quite good for the drama. But the one, there's like there's moments I think when characters are born, when that happens. And Taylor Fritz I don't know Taylor, but it kind of has always come across as just He's nice enough guy, but II there's not a big personality there necessarily. But I absolutely loved it. When he got when he got fully he got fully booed, being against the French player. He stood there just like completely taking it. And then had like a couple of sarcastic words to say. And for me, I just thought it was such a it was such a nice more than to see these different characters that are coming out. I don't know what from a player's side is. Is it too much when that happens? Are players able to appreciate that? Actually, the crowd are there. This is great entertainment. And we don't take it too personally.

Gaby Dabrowski  24:30

It's so tough because I haven't figured this out even for myself if I would rather a crowd be like super into it or just like more quiet and appreciate the tennis and I'm getting older and so yeah, I don't know, but I feel like you're right. The French crowd was excessively booing for what seemed like no reason sometimes. Sometimes it was warranted but I mean, they're tough like you can't even question a line call for five seconds without them getting on you.

Emily Webley-Smith  25:01

Yeah, for four people or against an entire French crowd for your mixed against Lucas pouille and Chloe packing. And when they won when gab won, there was absolute silence.

Gaby Dabrowski  25:13

I was like, it was the start was. Um, yeah, no. That's what I mean. Like, I feel like the crowd needs to appreciate the sport like, of course, you can get excited for your favorites, but appreciate when there's really good points played. And I feel like this year in France, it was just so heavily one sided or whoever they decided to cheer for that day that it was like, Okay, I mean, like, if I had a great shot, like, You got to be like, just a little, a little, you know, come on.

Daniel Kiernan  25:50

I was there for the booing I loved it. I was I was like, Bring it on. It just did it. It was I was finding hilarious and I actually switched in sports, I managed to get a ticket for the Messies last game, potentially last game in Europe at PSG. And every time he touched the ball, they booed. So in when he got called out at the end of the night, he got booed as well. So it was obviously something in the water. The Parisians were just absolutely gone for it. But you mentioned there, Luke Lucas Poulille, and he is another one. Luke has pre that it had another storyline of mine, Freddie, and, you know, if you take a few minutes to Google, Lucas, and his last few years, he was a top 10 player in the world. He's had he's had a big problems, you know, mental health problems, alcohol problems, you know, he's had a lot lot going on in his life. And he's, he's only 28, 29 years old, you know, and here he is back, back playing some top top class tennis. And I think that was, that was a great thing to see as well.

Freddie Nielsen  26:54

Oh, most definitely. And his story is so important. I think. Now, now going into coaching, one of the things that are the thing I valued the most in my players is that they have a solid, solid foundation, whether you're doing good or bad, it's so important that the basics of your life are there. And this is such a good example for the youngsters out there to see. If you if you're trying to chase, glory, and victory as a substitute for quality of life, you're going to be disappointed, you gotta have that solid foundation in your life. And then whatever comes with it is just a bonus. And we've seen it a few times with people who won stuff as well. Team just talked about it in an interview interview, how he felt empty after the US Open. And I think it's such an important story to tell him, I think he was pretty brave to come up with it and show some vulnerability. But but but I was really happy to see him back. And it also shows me I hope, hope he's also kind of competing a little more for the love of the game. Now since he's basically paraphrasing his own words hit rock bottom before. So it's nice. It's never nice to see a guy do well, I don't think many people have had too many bad things to say him. So I think it was very positive to see him do well. And especially that moment on the other was court 14 where he was singing the national anthem with the crowd. I like that. Get it Get there that was really powerful moment. And a guy who's been through a lot, that was probably more important to him than than some of the bigger victories he's had.

Daniel Kiernan  28:28

And we talked about, didn't we on the on the preview how, I guess we touched on social media and the whole sharing of this, you know, it's getting getting on the inside of people and being able to connect to people a little bit more, understand them a little bit more. And there was another one that stood out for me was was Etcheverry, who I think is a brilliant player, and he comes across incredibly well. And after one of his marches, he talked about you know how his younger sister died a year ago from cancer, and he was stood up to serve and he was talking so eloquently about it, then, you know, she jumped into his mind. And he started thinking, I've got to do it for my sister, and that those are the stories when I'm watching as a fan, that they really make me feel feel with them. And then and then one to watch and, and thought it was really interesting on the back of what we spoke about before. How that happened. I

Freddie Nielsen  29:25

I think it's I think it's also a very important message to send to kids because they think that these very good athletes are superstars who don't go through adversity and are just extremely confident and can do everything. And I think it's really important that all these things come out so that the youngsters coming through can see that these are regular human beings who are just very good at sports. And obviously, they have found a way most of them to to be able to deal with adversity. They all face adversity, everybody does. And I think it's very important that this narrative is out so that youngsters don't feel this strange or weird. If they're nervous, they don't match or they feel some kind of self doubt. Because everybody goes through it. The better ones are just more equipped or better groomed to deal with it.

Gaby Dabrowski  30:13

Not just for the kids, everyone.

Daniel Kiernan  30:17

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And on and on, on the lighter side. I came away from the preview thing saying Tstsipas mentioned city pass this year. And I remember thinking, Oh, God, if we messed up here, you know, but we now know that actually, we were writing to not mention him because he was too busy cuddling up to Badosa over the last couple of weeks, and posting it everywhere, everywhere on social media. So Piotr what's going on? It's everywhere.

Piotr Sierzputowski  30:48

Why are you asking me? I have no clue. But I think maybe that's why we should mention it before. We didn't predict it. So that's our fault. But come

Daniel Kiernan  30:59

Who saw that one coming? No one

Gaby Dabrowski  31:04

I will say it now. She's gonna break his heart.

Freddie Nielsen  31:08

Oh that's a prediction.

Daniel Kiernan  31:13

Is it real? Is it real?

Freddie Nielsen  31:18

Then we need an elaboration she can just throw that out. Let's go on some popcorn here. What?

Daniel Kiernan  31:26

Well, I just I'm just wondering, I mean, for those that don't know, again, you can find a lot of things out on Google nowadays. But Badosa was with that hunk, that Spanish hunk. The last time I saw in Miami, you know, which I'm not one to normally look at guys, but I did find myself looking at him a little bit. You know, he was a good looking guy. And the next thing we know, you know, it's all over social media. Her and Stefanos Tsitsipas and it's come out through Spotify. So I'm starting to think is this like some kind of Spotify ad that they're getting paid millions for you know, that they it's gonna in a couple of weeks time it's gonna turn around, and Spotify sales have gone up, but I don't know. If not, I hope they're very happy. What do you reckon Vossie?

Kieron Vorster  32:11

I'm with Gaby. Yes, this is gonna be a broken heart. Along the way. None of these things work out that well.

Daniel Kiernan  32:28

Relationships in general or?

Kieron Vorster  32:41

Berretini and whatever her name is, I mean, they're all over Netflix in the last few minutes. I mean, what a waste of time. That was Do me a favor. I mean, what were we doing? Well, we do that and what we're showing on that showing your relationship with playing tennis, I mean to me, come on, guys. Just just get real in the real life chairman.

Daniel Kiernan  33:01

And talking of relationships, we're going to move into doubles relationships, and Gaby I'm gonna throw this one your way because 14 was a magical court. Well, not so magical. Maybe for some of us as the as the tournament went on, however, court 14 was where Lucas we were singing. And then my boys Harri Heliovaara and Lloyd Glasspool, we're about to go on and you have that moment as a as a tennis player tennis coach, where the score stops on your court the match before and you're like, oh, what what's happened in here? You know, maybe we could have been going on in an hour and a half but 15 minutes time, we could be on everyone turned on the TV. We saw Kato hit a ball. I mean tickle a ball over the other side of the court happened to hit the ball kid. We all know what happened after he ended up getting defaulted with a partner. And yeah, that was that was a massive, massive controversy that obviously wasn't helped by the way that the opponents and I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt. In some ways we can all get caught up in the moment of a match. You know what I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt as I don't like the way that they didn't come out with any humility afterwards and hold their hands up and say look, we are caught up in the moment there that was absolutely wrong. I did all offer some prize money, something that I think saves their reputation a little bit. The female locker room. How was that when when all of that was kicking off? Gabby?

Gaby Dabrowski  34:40

Um, I mean the female locker rooms kind of quiet Yeah, I wasn't in there. So I wasn't probably everyone was like glued to the TVs but I wasn't but I did see it. So I can't speak of the reactions of others in the immediate moment, but definitely a lot of tweets flying around. I'm getting sent to everyone. What do you think of this? Is it too harsh? Is it not harsh, like whatever amiyo kottu new Cacho is a great tennis player. But she does have a small temper that I've seen before. And so I'm actually surprised that something like this, I didn't happen to her before because she has been a bit careless and other matches with her racket with the ball. That said, what got she got defaulted for was probably one of the most tame things that I've seen. So I think it was really bad luck. I think it was also a little bit stupid to pass the ball in that way. Like, you should always bounce it, even if you're passing it to the ball kid, just in case, as we saw, but yeah, definitely poor form by the opponents to try to push for a default, when they actually didn't see exactly what had happened. They'd only seen the aftermath and the ball girl visibly upset. Like you said benefit of the doubt, maybe they assumed that the ball hit the girl a lot harder than it did. Okay, you want to make your case, that's fine, but definitely don't laugh about it. And like you said, definitely have some sort of remorse after the fact, after you've been awarded a match like that, that you were actually not head in the oven. So yeah, really tough situation. But I can say at least from counsel perspective, discussing a lot about rules, and what it means for umpires discretion in those kinds of situations. Can we bring in virtual replay? Like, what can we do better in a situation like that, like what needs to happen? And then as well as encouraging Catco to push for an appeal to reinstate at least some prize money points, you know, in her defense, but yeah, that's not for us to decide. It's just for us to support. But yeah, crazy.

Daniel Kiernan  36:56

Piotr, did you come across? Because it was the talk, wasn't it? It's, it's like a little community, these grand slams. And you know, when something happens like that, I mean, everyone I was in the gym, getting ready, getting ready for the boys match. Everyone was watching it, everyone was talking about it. In the male locker room, it was not always a quiet place. It wasn't a quiet place that afternoon. You know, everyone was really like, and, and I can tell you how to like strong opinions, I didn't hear one opinion that you should have been defaulted part of Nick Kyrgios on Twitter. What did you think? Did you hear anyone?

Piotr Sierzputowski  37:33

I wasn't there anymore at this time. So I didn't feel what you did. But I would say it's, for me, really tricky situation, because I think it's all up to ref. And what happened for me, the worst is actually lying after the match that we just explained the situation from the opponent. So that's what I didn't like this behavior. But in the match, first reaction was good for me, which was like, she got worried, yes, that would happen, then, because of the pressure, they got defaulted. So I think if the ref is taking the decision, to give a warning at this moment is probably the best decision. Without video review. We cannot actually, you know, like know what's what, why what the reason to default her. So why somebody else who didn't see the situation is coming to the court and, you know, pushing it with any certain reason to do this. Like, they don't know for sure. So actually review would be good but only for supervisor who is out of the court who doesn't have to watch every single ball and that's okay. They should review it with the with the ref on with the umpire and then decide what to do next. So that's that's only my opinion about the situation on the court. And I hate that behavior after claiming that we didn't push for default. We just explained the situation. That's totally unfair play. And I think it should be somehow penalized, not in a way penalized as some sort of fine or anything, but like in a locker room, there shouldn't be approval for that kind of behavior. It's

Daniel Kiernan  39:25

In the rules. I believe that one of the one of the rules states, if you hurt the ball kid, then it becomes it's more serious

Emily Webley-Smith  39:42

With intent

Daniel Kiernan  39:45

So so if you have intent and use makeable harder than that, but you happen to miss the ball kid or you hit the market in an area that doesn't hurt them, that it's all a bit too

Freddie Nielsen  39:57

Good also when you hit it with anger, that's also a key part

Emily Webley-Smith  40:01

key for with Yeah, with frustration.

Piotr Sierzputowski  40:06

With intention, yeah.

Gaby Dabrowski  40:09

From what I heard, it's more if you do something with negligence, and then it hurt someone, it doesn't matter if you intended to or not because it was negligent. And then there's something about an action and a reaction. So actually, if the ball girl hadn't reacted at all, it would have been okay. But because there was a reaction, and it seemed like there was hurt, then the more severe punishment came. So that's why we have some times like a cameraman getting hit, someone hits the cameraman and anger with the ball. But the cameraman is like, gets hit a million times, it doesn't care, whatever, nothing happens. So I feel like it's also in Novak situation, which that ball was hit in more anger, I would say then what Koto did, but the woman also like took it extremely hard. And then it was because of that reaction that then the punishment is steeper. That's how I understand that

Daniel Kiernan  41:04

There was that would make sense. There was Nalbandian at Queens many years. Yeah.

Kieron Vorster  41:10

Ambiguous, right. Basically, basically, the rule should be if you hit anybody at whatever, you're getting defaulted. Not if you hit somebody, and based on their actions that will determine what what punishment you're gonna get that's,

Gaby Dabrowski  41:25

Or if you hit them from the neck up, because that's like,

Piotr Sierzputowski  41:29

that makes makes no difference for me, if you hit them in the foot. That's the same if you hit them

Kieron Vorster  41:35

And then the other point, the other point that I find bizarre is you get defaulted from that, that that event, a lot of play the other events of the tournament, to me if you get defaulted, you defaulted on the tournament go home, you shouldn't be allowed to play at play different event.

Gaby Dabrowski  41:49

I think it's because how that situation went down when the opponent's so strongly had influenced the decision, the referees, the supervisors, the Grand Slam board, whatever, said okay, we're actually going to let her play.

Kieron Vorster  42:06

Normal circuits are normal in normal circumstances, if you defaulted from one event, you default from the tournament, right.

Gaby Dabrowski  42:13

Is it is discretionary? I think it depends on the severity. That's

Kieron Vorster  42:17

an absolute nonsense. If you default it you defaulted from the from the tournament, not not just

Piotr Sierzputowski  42:24

ever the question. The question would be if you pass the ball and you hit somebody shouldn't be they, they be aware that they are both kids and they have to catch the ball. Like that's the question because that's their job. What they are doing on court. There are not five 100 Random kids kids there are selected from 10,000 kids who want to be bothered so she should be ready. Well, kids yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  42:50

Well, there's two things me one, Roger Federer hit the ball a lot harder than Kato hit the ball whenever it used to. He used to kind of swat the ball back back to back to the ball kids. They were watching. They caught it but I used to think oh my god, that's crazy hard two if you watch the video, the ball kid is not in the normal position. The ball kids actually inside the court.

Emily Webley-Smith  43:13

Yeah, she's not looking.

Daniel Kiernan  43:16

And she's inside the tennis court. She's not stood back where she would normally be stood.

Emily Webley-Smith  43:22

She cried just because of the surprise.

Daniel Kiernan  43:25

She was she was. I'm sure she was inside the baseline

Piotr Sierzputowski  43:33

But you're right. She wasn't in a corner. She was more to the middle.

Daniel Kiernan  43:36

Yeah. Okay.

Kieron Vorster  43:38

And, and then Gavi, on the aftermath of this, what did the ptpa do to the player because they put out these fantastic statements on Twitter and Instagram of how they should be a fair and foul and everything. But actually, what what, what did they do? Did? I mean, what have they done for that?

Gaby Dabrowski  43:56

I have no idea.

Kieron Vorster  43:57

I'm sure you would have known because there's a huge Canadian influence in the PTPA. And I'm just surprised that they put out all these statements, but there's, there's never ever anything, you know, other than the statements that was the same when Andy Murray finished up four o'clock in Australia, they're like, Yeah, we you know, this is not right for the player. And we as the ptpa and our union, we're going to stick up for the players right? And we're going to what are they doing? Are they contacting the grand slams? Are they contacting you know, all that starting to actually put some, you know, some fuel in the fire and, you know, don't going at things because to me, for me, it's it's a lot of bullshit. That if they're going to be a big b represent the place of gotta go guns blazing and actually start making some changes. Otherwise Shut up with the straplines and corporate President.

Daniel Kiernan  44:47

If you're listening, get the man get the man on President. President.

Kieron Vorster  44:53

I don't understand that to the degree that he should and just blows my mind how, after all these all these years, they coming up with these the corporate lines, but what are they doing? What are they doing? What changes have been made?

Gaby Dabrowski  45:13

I think what's while I'm sure we could have a whole conversation about tennis, unionization, I would love to allow it and all this stuff. But I think where the PTPA is struggling right now is because they don't have full player representation, because not all the players have like, signed on. So they can't actually technically advocate for all the players because they don't represent all the players. So it's a lot of like, social media posting, but I'm not sure exactly how much happens behind the scenes. And I can't speak for them, because I'm not a part of it. But I think that's one of the problems that they're running into right now. It's kind of like what comes first the chicken or the egg, the players joining an association, which everyone is telling us we can't do? Or is it the association doing something for the players, and something getting done, whether or not there's player support, you know,

Kieron Vorster  45:58

Collective bargaining for collective bargaining agreements that only need 25 players names, and they can take it to the High Court. And they can challenge all Federation on a CBA without affecting any of the tour. But they can start that process. I know the legal background on this 100% Fact. All they need is 25 names. And this and they can basically prove as the power that the ITF, the ATP, the WTA are in cahoots with with each other, and are restricting the independent contractors from playing when they're supposed to play and making them play when they shouldn't have to play.

Daniel Kiernan  46:39

Are you are you a supporter of the PTPA?

Kieron Vorster  46:41

I think the PTPA has a potential of being a fantastic organization to represent the players, if there was no conflict, they would be player representation without owning tournaments, having sponsors and will be it'll be like the PFA. here in the UK. And I've spoken to them about and I could have had them speak to Gordon Taylor, that the biggest problem they have is that the representatives working for the PTPA are coming from a background of you know, national hockey with their employees is very different when you're an independent contractor, and how you how you're going to support an independent contractor. But what you can prove beyond doubt is that, for example, if you rank 20, and you don't play 1000 80,000, you get to a point then and do you get fined, I think you get fine, you used to get fine, that goes against what an independent contractor is about an independent contractor should be able to well, if I don't play that way, I don't make any money. But I shouldn't then be penalized and fined for not playing it based on my ranking. And there's loads and loads of different there's loads and loads of different things that and another example would be I did the study of 2019, the ATP 250 events, as an example, you play every ATP 250 event, if you win it, you get 250 points. But the prize money to charity in 2019 was between $88,000 and $220,000 of winning an ATP 250. How was that possible? And how was that allowed to happen? Now if you've got proper representation back in the place you would go in then say right, you know, you have to if you standardizing points at 250 500 1000, you can standardize the prize money as well. But this disparity in prize money, and it's a claim on the WTA tour, and you just need people that have the back of the players, and when the players know that these people have their back, then they will come they will come. They're like why should I go to the PTPA is wishy washy to a certain degree,

Daniel Kiernan  48:47

It's the same with any movement, isn't it? And any movement takes time and it takes it takes it takes balls for people to jump in and to take the risk at first and be the be the the early ones that jump on board. So I think I think from a conceptual standpoint, absolutely. We, you know, we were seeing it with golf, anything, you know, whenever something's not monopolized, it opens up the possibility for players to be represented better. So I think from a concept standpoint, and and I'm sure with time, especially with now the greatest male player of all time, whether people like it or not, statistically is clean it is going to be you know, and soon soon it'll be statistically the greatest player of all time, in my opinion. You know, if he's leading it, you'd think that it's going to make some proper movement. In the coming years.

Kieron Vorster  49:38

He's dipping its toe in and he's dipping his toe out. He's not leaving it because because it's too tiresome for the guy. If he's to leave this property you focus on on playing tennis. It's one of the biggest hedge funds in New York. I put two and a half I think two and a half million dollars into the PTPA said Yeah, have you got started off with that and so that, you know, now, you know that premium of like super trump cards and stuff for the players and you know, the players have an image and the rights and you know, the image rights and, you know, we've got to look after the players, it's like, come on guys. You know it guys and girls, it's like, you know, you Let's strip it back to the basics, the fundamentals of what you're trying to achieve. And I'm sick and tired of hearing, you know, I've just kept coming up on Twitter and, you know, the fundamentals of what the PTPA stands for. And when when there's a miss doing at a tournament, they put out the statement. So actually, what are you doing? What are you doing? Are you actually challenging the organizations? Are you that strong enough? Chances Are? That's the million dollar question.

Daniel Kiernan  50:44

The end of this section of the podcast is that Cato went on and won the mixed doubles. But no, obviously, it's a great subject. And it's great to get it's a great to get your take. And I think, you know, would be it would be good for a store. But that conversation for sure. And other podcasts, you know, that but I do I do want to make that point, I think of the story for her to go with templates. And when the mixed doubles after what happened was was another cool storyline, I think that come out of the French Open and a great example of responding. You know, I think we are in a sport of adversity. And if you are I always I always think I heard something a few years ago, and it's something I've really taken personally, when something when something bad happens, say the word good. And it's amazing what it can do to the mindset, absolutely incredible what it can do for the mindset, because there's always opportunity. And I think, you know, she's used that incredibly well actually, and come out of it incredibly well in in everything from social media. She's now got fans around the world. And you know, eight to 10 days on, she's a mixed doubles, Grand Slam champion. She's got a lot of support. And and the two girls that made probably the wrong choice, the opposite, you know, and that's, that's how the world works. But I do want to move into into the women's side, you know, Iga, you know, well done. Well done to Piotr well done to Gabby on on picking and staying true to the polls in our was was it ever in doubt it maybe was at one point, you know, I think we saw that, you know, recall that it played played some incredible tennis in obviously, I think Rybakina going out early, made life a little bit easier. I would imagine she's happy that she didn't see Sabalenka at the other side of the court and the final as well. But just a couple of little statistics before I brought up Piotr, you know, she she has now made three finals. She's She's won the French Open three times. She's only the fourth player to do that at such a young age. You know, and the fourth youngest player in the Open Era behind such great names as Monica Seles who, by the way, it already made three Roland Garros finals at the age of 18. You know, Steffi Graf at the age of 19, Chris Evert at the age of 20, and now eager at the age of 22. And, you know, it does feel like she's, she's got it going on, you know, four grand slams, she seems to have found found the formula, what what was your take on the women's events in particular, on how Iga performed and got the job done the last couple of weeks Piotr.

Piotr Sierzputowski  53:29

That actually was the toughest Roland Garros for her because of the conditions and the balls she had, like, that was the biggest challenge for you guys to actually perform that well. And to win that one.

Daniel Kiernan  53:40

Tell us why tell tell the listener Why Why. Why someone's listening, going. Okay, great. But what does that mean? What was the conditions,

Piotr Sierzputowski  53:49

First of all, really dry, not humid, not raining at all. So balls flying a little bit faster. But on the other hand, balls dead after three to five shots, which didn't promote generating winners from any spot on the court. So, so far, Iga terrible conditions because she likes to force it. But when the conditions are slower, not that way, and it was really windy. So I know from the insights that she was complaining about, and that was tough tournament for her. So good job and congrats. And I would say, I wasn't surprised what happened in women draw like, everything was a little bit expected. What what what was happening, so it wasn't like something surprisingly, appearing from nowhere, so only what you said Rybakina Who just withdrew because of the sickness, maybe shouldn't call firing for six games with a guy you know, like those small, small stories, but we are not even remembering because it's like something not that important to the whole tournament. So I think it went well with the plan and actually Mahoba as my choice of Dark Horse, she was she was playing well, I really like it. I spent a lot of time with clipper this tournament because she played with Shelby doubles. So, yeah, she was healthy because I was playing well, and I'm happy she wasn't a final.

Daniel Kiernan  55:25

And is she? Is she the real deal to be pushing those top five girls on a regular basis? You know,

Piotr Sierzputowski  55:34

You know she's great player, but I'm not sure if physically she can maintain that shape for a long period of time. What I would say maybe if she select tournaments wisely, better than in the past, maybe she can play five, six well a year. But I don't think she's at the stage of her career that she can push to play 16 You know, so let's see. Let's see, I'm keeping fingers crossed for her because I always liked her team. I like her as a person. I spent a lot of time in Czech Republic practicing around her like, we used to go there to consult with other coaches there. So she's great person. So fingers crossed for her.

Daniel Kiernan  56:22

And Rybakina. You know, we again, I think we all felt you know, she had a chance Emily, she was she was your pick. There wasn't a lot of luck that was flying around your way. Maybe we call it luck. Maybe we call it bad picks. But in terms of in terms of rybakina. Well, she was on the practice courts the morning of though she warmed up. Yeah, no, could she have not found a way through that match and then taken 48 hours off and then be ready to go again?

Emily Webley-Smith  56:52

Yeah, I think I mean, none of us know how she was feeling. But I think if you get off and you walk on the court to practice, you're feeling reasonably okay. Or you want to try at least, but I don't know, maybe she's getting advice from people. You don't know what you

Piotr Sierzputowski  57:07

Because she just went to warm up. And she did like five to six minutes. And she didn't. She couldn't. Yeah, so that was like already telling her Oh, I cannot go and push

Emily Webley-Smith  57:18

I think you don't know right? Until you start moving. You try you think you want to try and then you realize that how exactly physical sport is when you try and hit a few balls. And you just you just know that you can't walk out there. But I did feel for her coming into it because I think like I said, I think she she'd obviously been playing some good tennis. And I think going into even that match she was she was I think we were all quite confident about her. In the latter stages. We don't know right in semis and final and stuff. But at that point, I think I was I was rooting for her. I thought I thought that she could do well. But yeah, I think especially clay, especially in the in that environment. I think you obviously need to be operating even 80% Just to be able to walk on the court. Otherwise, you know, it's not worth it.

Daniel Kiernan  58:09

And voisey Our, our Sabalenka but she was looking so strong and we're thinking do you know what I mean? She may be used to choke once upon a time, but those days have gone those days have gone. And then then it's happened. The collapse happened.

Kieron Vorster  58:34

Yeah, I mean, it happens to the best of us. I mean, I mean, she's she'll put up she'll brush it aside. She'll come back and get ready for Wimbledon. It's one of those things. I mean, I was a bit surprised that yeah, these things happen.

Daniel Kiernan  58:49

And I I went pretty big Gaby on the Big Three beforehand, I was loving the threes in the in the preview and luckily the winner came out of the big three in on both sides. But is that fair now that we do have a big three on the women's side is that you know, I guess I get gone into Wimbledon, we're probably thinking Sabalenka Rybakina as the as the big favourites you know, can Iga do it on grass. We don't know yet. But it does seem like they're starting to push themselves into that position.

Gaby Dabrowski  59:22

Maybe a little bit of a breakaway but Wimbledon's playing, you know, slower the last few years than it did before. So I feel like I wouldn't write off the players that don't hit with as much pace as Rybakina or Sabalenka. I mean, we sustain it. So that makes semis I think in 2019. So, and we have Tatiana Maria, who made semis last year, didn't she? yeah. So I think just because they're the big hitters doesn't necessarily mean that they're the top picks for the Wimbledon championship. I think they would be top picks just because the way that they've been playing but not necessarily because they have enough power.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:01

I'll take that half half validation, I was looking for some validation I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take it as 50% validation. And and Freddie an interesting statistic. You know, the those out there that love talking about equal pay, people shouldn't have equal pay because the men play more time than on court than the women do. And you know that which I always throw back at them. You don't pay more money to go and watch Lord of the Rings than you do to watch. You know another movie is because it lasts for three hours. 45 or whatever fact I'd pay less money to sit and watch a three hour 45 movie.

Piotr Sierzputowski  1:00:40

I agree. I agree I would pay this

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:44

Hour and a half finish your popcorn get out of that. You know what I mean?

Gaby Dabrowski  1:00:49

I'm sorry, every second was worth it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:53

No, Harry Potter, I fall asleep in both too long, but Haddad Maia on the way to the semi finals played for 12 hours, 55 minutes. And Carlos Alcorn was on the way to the semi finals played 10 hours. 52 minutes. So how did Maya played for over two hours more on her route to the semi finals? So surely she should have been paid more money than Carlos Alcatraz? But yeah, doesn't that doesn't that also assure that, you know, these three set matches can be as grueling and and take as much out than some of the five set matches as well?

Freddie Nielsen  1:01:29

Yes, let me first apologize. There seem to be some sort of crashing of plates behind me.

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:37

Maybe it's Tsitsipas and Badosa

Freddie Nielsen  1:01:40

Could be could be. I mean, they did start a mutual Instagram account. So maybe they're just following up on that talk. But but we with regards to that, I think that the most important point with the whole prize money thing is that tennis players are paid as entertainers and you mentioned movies, you pay the same to watch a movie, but but the actors are certainly not paid the same. You know, if you have one of the big actors or actresses, they or he or she will get paid more and lesser known actors can do a lot more movie and paid less. That's the name of the game. Having said that, I think it's very, very good that the tennis is on the forefront of that and pay equal money. That's, that's great. But after that, it's the Wild West, let's go for a while if the WTA can secure the biggest prize check in the history of the game and in their finals, then why not? I mean, that's I think we should see it more as as we're paid as entertainers and not so much is how much will labor coming. And then to your other question. Yeah, of course, they can be grueling three set matches. It goes without saying statistically, over the course of a tournament doors or season five, set matches are probably a little more grueling, and it's probably an anomaly that Carlos is on court as little as he was. But yeah, I mean, there's no, there's no. To win a slam be it three sets of five sets. I mean, it's, it's unbelievable. And Maia there, she certainly got full ball value for her prize money. That's, that's for sure. And, yeah, it's just how it is five sets' tough three sets' tough one thing might be tougher than the other. But like you say, it's all tough in their own way. So maybe the tough thing about a three set match is that you have less room for error and and you really have to be cool mentally that way. So it doesn't work where you're just having a look at it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:38

And just for the record, the Badosa Tsitsipas comment, if you look on their social media, they were plate smashing on the, on their social media. But in terms in terms of Haddad Maia, if you look that we talked about inspiring kids, but not just inspiring kids, also inspiring other tennis players, there was probably even three matches, if you if you froze the score, at any one point, you would think well, she's not getting out of that match, you know, and to continue making your way through that, you know, a tennis match is never lost. It's the beauty of our scoring system Piotr. You know, and I think it's, it's something that maybe not enough juniors, know, you know, growing up that, that actually a tennis match is not won of the first set, it's not one, halfway through the second set, you know, and you keep going, you keep going and you never quite know, when the doors gonna open and your opportunities going to arise.

Piotr Sierzputowski  1:04:34

Yep, totally agree. Like we never know every point until the ball is in the game. We never know what's going to happen. So, but coming back to the topic, like I feel, it doesn't really matter what matter is about those last sets, it doesn't matter if it's five or three. But that last set when they are fighting and There is crowd behind some players and there is you know, like fire and everything is happening intense and it's like, that's what is really good product as a as entertainment but it's actually what we live for and I couldn't care less if it's five or three sets, you know,

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:20

Before I move on to the men's Vossie any body and this is to all of you actually, any any eye catches, you know, I know we've we've got to come up with a different criteria for the dark horses as we move into the Wimbledon review and a couple of preview in a couple of weeks, cuz I looked back and that was shocking, you know, people coming up with on stubborn people like that as dark horses, it's just completely crazy. But Ostapenko was a bit of a dark horse. I mean, she was Well, years ago and and she where she's falling. He fell off the face of the earth the last few years. But in terms of now, retrospectively looking back, and I'll get a start and I think this girl has real game. Daniel a bitch. You know, and I know she lost in a very tight match to Ons Jabeur in the third round. She's got serious firepower. She's got game. The body hasn't seemed to have held up so well in her young career so far. But Emily is Emily, Gabby, she's someone you've come across. And is there anyone else that's jumping out for you from the from the women's side of the

Emily Webley-Smith  1:06:33

Yeah, I played doubles with Olga and she pulled out in semis because her body didn't hold up. So yeah, from the point of view of that, I think she's trying to manage a schedule a bit better and play a lot less tournaments. She doesn't pop up very often because she doesn't play very often. But when she actually plays she's very, very good. And and yeah, I love the way she plays. I love the ball strike. She's got full fire in her heart and in her belly. But she has just either been really unlucky, or she does have that kind of body that breaks down on a regular basis. So I think they're trying to be more careful with her training and manage her load a bit better. But I think we'll definitely see more of her in the future. Yeah.

Piotr Sierzputowski  1:07:19

Yeah. About Daniella, which actually, she was a competitor of Viga. When she played juniors, I think she was the one and Potapova who drive for drives her to play that well, because I remember when Iga was injured, and I think then you love it won the tournament being a lucky loser in moss in Russia, on clay outdoors and something, something like that. And I remember Iga asking, like, if they can do this, I can do this too. So she definitely is able to be really, really good player. But it's the same case, just the different stage of life. Like Muchova

Gaby Dabrowski  1:07:59

Yeah. Another one to watch is Mira Andreeva, for sure.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:04

She has fun. We walk in her like every every interview, she seems to. I just wonder if she's able to keep that that freshness or how long she can because it's it's really fun to hear her speaking and the way she's gone about a business right now.

Emily Webley-Smith  1:08:20

Before she played Madrid, she played the 250s the challengers that I was at in Switzerland, and she was so watchable. Even at those tournaments, like people were drawn to watching her tennis and the way that she was playing, and she won two in a row before she came into Madrid.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:38

She's a star for sure. Yeah.

Emily Webley-Smith  1:08:40

And Gabs and I actually said when we were watching one of her matches at French, like why on earth didn't we think of her as a dark horse because she would have been a great dark horse for I don't know what round she actually got to in French. But she she? Yeah, she's got a cool brand of tennis. And she's so young.

Freddie Nielsen  1:08:57

She's very young. And she's really matured quickly. I remember seeing her last year at a junior tournament in Milano. And she was all over the place on the court.

Emily Webley-Smith  1:09:05

Yeah, she knows exactly what shot to play every single time.

Freddie Nielsen  1:09:09

Yeah, and she was also behaving quite wildly, negatively and positively.

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:15

she sounds like sounds like Vossie tonight.

Freddie Nielsen  1:09:20

She seems to have gotten it together really quickly. So that's a great sign of maturity and development for her.

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:25

And I know that they're talking I mean, I heard it in Madrid while I was up there already for a couple of days, but I heard a lot of the coaches WTA coaches, they're talking about her right she's opening people's eyes.

Piotr Sierzputowski  1:09:37

Yeah, for sure. Come on. How old is she? That's like 16 I think 16 And then you compare her to her older sister which is going good. Thanks to that. Yeah, different levels, but I would say similar things. Maybe not that much of the difference for our sisters, Linda and Brenda and Brenda is the younger one who It's already really close to Linda. So yeah, so I'm curious about those two families, you know, really curious.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:09

Very interest. And last one I have to mention is Svitolina. You know, I certainly didn't see them. And I think that was I said, we say that you were the WTA tournament the week before, but, you know, we are looking again, we've talked a lot about inspirational stories, but, you know, for a mum to give birth for so quickly, you know, and have that you know, and then and then come out again, she had the adore of the French crowd, you know, married to married to Monfils. They seem like a really fun couple, you know, and she seems like she's got to kind of level up for it already to, to almost where it was before, you know, and she's someone that maybe is going to keep pushing on as well.

Freddie Nielsen  1:10:50

That's absolutely insane. What she's been doing at the Open, I was actually talking to my wife about was more impressive Serena winning Australian over 10 weeks pregnant or Svitolina. already making quarterfinal and winning tour events, after giving birth in October, is absolutely incredible. I watched her early on in her comeback when she was playing Clara Towson and Portugal. Very good match already. And I was really impressed. I was thinking, well, this is pretty quick to come back. I was I can't tell you how impressed I was very good coach Raymond slider as well. So So I mean, I'm pleased for him. And this is a great story. I love it. This is a great story. Inspirational. really inspirational. I think for women to show that you can you can you can have a kid you can have a family and you can still come back and be competitive at the highest level. I love everything about

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:41

Number number 23. You know, I don't think any of us, certainly 15 years ago thought we'd be talking about another player getting to get into that. You know, we've guys it is Graf on 23. Serena, Serena is 23 Court is 24. You know, but you know, but it's for Novak to move to 23 It's amazing how quickly they did a stitch they were able to stitch his tracksuit after he won the event. I mean that's confidence in there. I mean you you've got the number 23 tracksuit in the bag, waiting waiting to put on you know none of us outside of Gaby picked it with stupid we're idiots. How could we not pick it and to get that conversation started? Another one if you're listening if you're a tennis player, he played six tie breaks at Roland Garros. That was 55 point six tie breaks, zero unforced errors. You know, if we if we ever if we ever forget what the name of our game is, fluffy yellow ball over the net in between white lines, you know, which I think at times we sometimes do forget, Novak Djokovic certainly is showing us how to do it, Freddie

Freddie Nielsen  1:13:00

You're absolutely right. And it's also shows how good of a game manager he is. He knows exactly what to do in different situations. You say put it in. I think if we saw those tie breaks, and obviously 55 points, there's a certain level of quality for those shots. I think also one thing that I forgot about and under kind of forgot a little bit of he has so much belief in himself. And I think he kind of fuel it was fuel on the fire that people were talking about the young guns kind of riding him off, and I think you've worked in his advantage. He's just really, really dialed in. And I think one of the big things he has compared to the younger generation, which is also why I thought Carlos was gonna do well is that he has very good game management, he knows exactly how to build a point he knows exactly how to hurt the opponent. He rarely under plays. He rarely over plays. He's so composed, and he has a lot of belief in himself. And he knows what to do in certain situations. So when he locks in, he he needs to lock in. And when he plays a close ones to tie breaks, I remember a similar story back and in Wimbledon when he won that that massive final against Federer. He just knows exactly what he's relying on. And that's why he's so good. You know, he's also the you mentioned 55 errors. He's by far the most efficient player we've ever seen, in my opinion, if not, maybe not the most spectacular, maybe not the most eye catching. And if you if you see him play a lesser opponent. Maybe in the early rounds where he's waiting list. The way he plays doesn't strike out as much into the eyes as much as some of the other guys were playing more brilliantly, but as soon as he's up against the great opponents, his level just come through, so good.

Emily Webley-Smith  1:14:48

I really liked the question that after the Alcaraz match, Mats Verlander interviewed him as he was coming off the court. And one of the questions he asked him, he said, Were you surprised at all by the level that you've been able to produce in this tournament, given your lead up into the event? And he just looked up and just smiled and was like, No. I wasn't surprised at all by my level. And it like, Matt, Matt, think Matt has to think of and now the question or a response to that quite quickly, because he clearly wasn't going to elaborate on that. But I think that just shows like directly that those tournaments, as Piotr said, coming into it were just relevant for Djokovic in terms of his belief going into French Open.

Daniel Kiernan  1:15:34

I also thought it was really interesting and, and I'd love to get maybe Piotr's opinion on this or vases opinion on this. When he spoke after he apologized to his team. So how difficult he'd been the last few weeks, you know, when we're talking about that level of greatness, and we're talking about that level of pressure, and that, you know, in that in that environment, you can almost only imagined what every single minute of every single day the intensity that goes into that and, and Goran just stood there laughing, you know, and it was, it was clearly a very, very challenging team to be part of, but I would imagine and you've been a part of a Grand Slam winning team PR too, with eager you know, I know it was when she was young and it was her first time but you can you just explain to anyone listening just as to how, how much of a pressure cooker and how much almost every action of every minute of every day is scrutinized and and the pressure that the tea feels getting an athlete of that level prepared for an event like the French Open.

Piotr Sierzputowski  1:16:48

I will say first first tournament ego on first Roland Garros was actually a surprise. So it was like something nice, it wasn't that kind of pressure. But the next year after when she was defending champion was totally different story that way. I could actually right now really, I am. I admire her team right now because it's not defending champion once it's defending champion second time, and to see if she can handle the pressure this time. So that's a lot of work. And actually, is it different? I don't think so. I think just champions who behave differently at Grand Slams is something something normal, that's always more pressure there is always always more work there is always more mental stretches. But that's what we do for a living so we have to adapt.

Gaby Dabrowski  1:17:52

It also sounds like to me that the devils in the details with a lot of these top players because even though they are like a Novak are the big three on the guys side, they are so far ahead. It's like how have they been able to stay ahead so consistently for so long? And they don't really have that dip? And so I think when we were talking earlier and Em you said about hydration and fuel. Like there's a science around the exact specific hydration for these top players. I mean, they have the perfect science for places and grass season hardcourt season exactly what they're going to eat exactly what they're going to drink access to information that probably maybe, I don't know, maybe a few other players have. And so I feel like that's also what separates the good from the great is like they're just so much more meticulous about everything around them. And so I could see you know how maybe he's apologizing because he's been maybe more anal about things at that particular moment to be able to win that slam. But sometimes like just with Novak that I've noticed there are times when he's almost like lost a first set almost to like throw off the opponent on it that they have a chance to win and then just completely demoralizes them for the rest of the match. And so I feel like his entry into this tournament was kind of like that. Like it was almost like you guys think you have a chance but like you really don't. And I think that's why I also stayed with him as my pick like he's not my favorite tennis player of all time, but I have a lot of respect for the way that he's gone about being so successful for so long.

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:46

To ask you Gaby you played French Open, you know semi finalists that mixed doubles. A third third round women's doubles Hey, there's Sydney eating the chocolate cake. Do you know what I mean? Like you're you're doing better than 99.9999% of people that are playing tennis out there. And it's important to remember. But in terms of in terms of you playing at a Grand Slam French Open, obviously Wimbledon up and coming in, I know you've got good experience at Grand Slam level. Explain the differences as a player, when you are going into the Grand Slam from, I guess a mindset of preparation, you know, what you what you feel, you know how, how that is different from maybe going and playing the other events? Or are you able to get in the mindset that it's just another event?

Gaby Dabrowski  1:20:39

I think for me, the main difference is just expecting longer matches, that's really the main thing. And I rather I'd rather that so I get excited for the fact that we have full scoring two out of three sets. So for me, that's really the main adjustment because a lot of our matches throughout the year, they can begin and end very quickly. In particular with the sudden death deuce. So I love going into slams because I feel like there's a lot less luck involved in who wins matches. It is a lot about who's played better, more consistently throughout that match or throughout the tournament. So for me, that would really be the the only adjustment in terms of doubles. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:25

So the actual event or size or history of the event doesn't necessarily impact

Gaby Dabrowski  1:21:32

Not as much, no

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:35

I'm not and Freddie to bring to bring you in because I think it's Freddie time because we're about to talk about Mr. Rune here but Firstly, I'd like to talk about Casper Ruud who I need to get the clip but I do believe that you have said before on this podcast that he would not make another Grand Slam final after his two last year. And the stats do back that up a little bit. You know he's in his mat. His win over over Holger Rune was actually the first time he's ever beaten a top 10 player at a Grand Slam. You know, I think you know people were easy saying okay, he he made two finals last year, but he had great draws and then look at his results after and he hasn't had a great 2023 But it's maybe time for us to stick a little bit more respect on the name of Casper Ruud. You know, just like we stupidly wrote off Novak Djokovic, you know, watching Casper Ruud the last two weeks, the boy can seriously seriously play. I think he's here to stay. You know, Is he is he going to be a superstar of the game? Like an Nadal or Djokovic And I don't he's not he's not going to be a multiple slam champion, I don't think but he's great for the group game. He carries himself incredibly well. And as your opinion changed a little bit on what you've seen over Casper the last couple of weeks

Freddie Nielsen  1:23:08

Yes and no, I do think that he has, I do think that he played better and he had more steps to his game this time around which is which is impressive. I was also disappointed to uh, under under appreciated his grit and his character because he's got great character. He works well. Very respectful guy, delightful guy. He maximizes whatever he does on the court always keeps it simple knows exactly where he's good, where he's bad, what to avoid and how to hurt the opponent. I think it's a time to appreciate him maybe not mentioned too much that his store was alright. But let's let's be honest, he played one top 10 player to the to the final. So his draw was alright. But at the same time, I agree with you. Very good player. He'll be around. I also like I said, I was I don't know, I was I was I had a moment of madness in the last preview. And he was he you know, sports is about character and consistency. And these two guys who play the final, they have character and they have consistency. And yes, Casper is going to be around because he's got character and consistency. And I think a lot of the other youngsters are struggling with that. And he's gonna take advantage. And yeah, he had a weird year. But he also had a weird preseason. And he probably came out and said he probably wouldn't have done that isn't going to do that next time. So he also lives and learns. And He's young. He's probably not peaking until 25, 26. So yeah, I think also roll back the tapes. I'm pretty certain that I wouldn't have talked so different. Definitely. I said he might not ever end. But let's leave that be I think I also said I would be happy if he did. So. Right now. I'm just happy that he did. And I think that it's great to Scandinavian terms as well. So I I'm happy to be wrong on that one.

Daniel Kiernan  1:24:55

What's the word in Denmark about about Holger?

Freddie Nielsen  1:24:58

People don't really know what's wrong, obviously something didn't play he, I mean, from the first match against Eubanks something was off. People are trying to speculate what happened. But he even said it himself. He didn't found his find his game. The word is what was wrong? Did he play too much in the weeks leading up to it? Was he mismanaged? What what was happening? Was he ill during the week? He didn't really give anything away in the interview. So So basically, there's a lot of question mark as to what went wrong, which is also quite interesting from a 20 year old who may quarter finals of a slam. But, but but there was obviously it was something wrong in the game. So there's a lot of like, more, more in not so much disappointment more like interesting that that didn't go that way. And what went wrong,

Daniel Kiernan  1:25:46

Did anyone, anyone that had any standouts on the men's side this year, Vossie, anybody that you that you watched and thought, you know, what, the I loved watching this guy play? This is the one for the future?

Kieron Vorster  1:25:58

No, not really. I think that's the top of the top three are way ahead. I think, you know, obviously, on clay, I will say that the best player always wins on Play, were not necessarily the best tennis player will always win on a faster hard court or grasscourt. Because you can slap winners and get away with it. Whereas on clay, you've got to build the points and you know, you you are ultimately the better tennis player that wins. It's a lot harder. I think. I think Novak continues to shine. And you know, like, I think what practice I mean, in the big events like plans there is there is a big gap. I think playing on the faster surfaces is going to be a little bit of an equalizer. So it'll be interesting to see how you know how he goes on the grass. I mean, last year, he never played any warmup tournaments He came here played a couple of games and won Wimbledon. So he is yeah, he's doing exactly the same. Yeah. So you know, he's going to come in the week before, particularly around the vet and then you know, basically plant stuff into form you know, and you know, over the grass No, I don't I don't see me and none of that they're not young but you know, Tiafoe prep, you know, those costumes have a shot but I still think that the risks are too big

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:10

And Freddie your Cerundolo pick was looking you know, pretty good. I'd say that's a proper dark horse that that you know, and he almost took out Holger and then it would have been a real dark horse going all the way to the quarterfinals. He looks like he's really come on on the clay courts as well, but anybody else that's jumping to jump into your mind.

Freddie Nielsen  1:27:29

Now I'm kind of behind Vossie on that one. I'm not too impressed by the by the young generation coming through. I was expecting players like, like Fritz maybe not so much on the clay but Felix, Tiafoe, Shapo and these guys would be more of a factor at this stage in their careers, but but they're really not. And yes, their own little did really well. At the end. I actually think he acted a little bit against Holger. So maybe he still needs a little bit to compete as a bit against the very good guys, but I think it's difficult to see where it should come from. I honestly do, I think yeah, I also think that's the Rossi made fun of me, but but after the after the friend job, I tweeted that nobody might get to 30 it wasn't all just throwing it out there. I think he might actually get to 30.

Kieron Vorster  1:28:18

Yeah, 100% done just, I mean, it's just interesting. Just interesting talking on Holger, Mike James put a who's the analyst that works with him, and he put a thing on it, but the whole claycourt season, you know, you won, he won. And you know, and I just said, you know, we stop all that just went in the French hopefully he wrote for sure. But I think going back to one thread, I think he was so caught going into into Paris, you wasn't giving himself the best opportunity to to do as well as he could have done in Paris, based on the volume of matches and titles that you want, all through the clay season, which is great, but it stands for nothing when obviously, you're talking about somebody with that, that that that level is ultimately wanting to win the front.

Freddie Nielsen  1:29:07

And that's where all the experience comes in. So if you have experience like nobody does, you have the quality. There's certainly no panic station for him in in Madrid. We didn't even say Madrid but in Rome,

Kieron Vorster  1:29:19

You would have thought you know, having the super duper Mouratolglou looking super dapper with his beard nice and shared and kept looking good that you know, you would have advised them on potentially a better schedule, rather than being with every week, but

Freddie Nielsen  1:29:37

I will challenge you on that though. So what should he have done differently though? He played 3000s in a mansion in Munich on place, what do you think he should have done differently?

Daniel Kiernan  1:29:47

Last early on purpose?

Kieron Vorster  1:29:49

Potentially, maybe, you know, as an example. Rome, I mean with the condition. You know, taking that taking that off hindsight, the great thing I mean, but, you know, when you're looking at when you're looking at the, at the events, you know, does that replicate? What are the conditions and barracks. And obviously you think sometimes the room can be super hot for the bulk of flight room. It wasn't. And then obviously, you know, like, get a schedule a schedule, should, should be evergreening it should should should always be up to up to change based based on how the players playing or, you know, and if you take mo got, you know, obviously, totally schedule was playing every week, it's gonna look a lot different, you know, based on based on, you know, if he gets a lot of matches and etc, etc. But I do think that, yes, it should, in hindsight, maybe not played as much and given himself, you know, the legs and the heart that he definitely has, but I think he was bluffing a little bit in against Casper with us. I think he was, he was dead.

Freddie Nielsen  1:30:57

It's possible. And maybe this is something that he's going to learn from but when you're when you're coming in, you're you think you can do everything right, and you think but if you if you put it on paper and you say Final of Monte Carlo, lose lose early in Madrid, you win Munich, and then you play finals in Rome, going into a week of rest before Paris, you probably sign on for that. Right? So before you do it, because then you say, Oh, you get the matches, you get the rhythm, you get the rest before Paris, you have the confidence going in. You're young. That mean? I think that should be all right. In my opinion.

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:32

Ready? I think it's we're talking about matches there. I guess the thing that also we don't know behind the scenes, and this is where experience seems to count for so much in, in our sport nowadays is the touch on what Emily said about around the nutritional side of things to look at their practice the practice intensities, the practice amounts, the days off the travel that you just don't know, do you and not those those. Those are the bits that I guess without being on the inside. We're speculating. But I know Piotr, we've spoken about these things before

Freddie Nielsen  1:32:08

just so suddenly that point. Yeah, absolutely. Because when when you mentioned that, I think the one thing that should be different inthe future is maybe a cabbie mentioned that how Novak likes to basically tank I said, which I don't disagree with basic sometimes it looks like he doesn't just training. But But Holger seems like every point is a matter of life and death. And I think what matters, boys is not so much the matches, but more that every match is such a battle and such. I gotta win every fight. So then it goes up and down. And I think maybe the the thing to work on the more next year is, in my opinion, maybe not so much the schedule, but more how he manages the matches. And I think he could do well to have a lot more routine wins where he maybe doesn't have to dig so deep. And just let let it be becomes a little more natural and what he tries to win and maybe win some matches more on the tennis side instead of battling and finding a way with

Daniel Kiernan  1:33:07

Telling the crowd and battling everybody. If you think of the clear court season. I mean, he he took on Monte Carlo he took on Madrid, you know he took on a lot and for me watching Holger I was disappointed when I watched the Cerundolo match because I thought he can't win the French Open, because he actually he actually tank the fourth set. And he tanked the fourth set to try and help get him through that match. But it II look completely cooks, I think it is all of those things. So from a coaching standpoint, peope because I know that's a big part of how you think as a coach. And you know, we've had some great conversations on that what's your take on that and, and how you're preparing a player and getting the right, the right amount of practice time the right amount of rest the you know the intensity that matches have been played in the, you know, everything that goes into not saving yourself or getting yourself in peak condition for the for the big, big events.

Piotr Sierzputowski  1:34:05

First of all, I think you overestimated as a coach is to have that much influence, I think because first of all, the donor will learn his lesson, playing those matches. And what Fred said, I think it's accurate, but it's like just playing those matches. He's getting more more load, he's getting more volume, he's getting more working hours, which he works, matches nothing else than practice for us as coaches so next year, he gonna be prepared way better and for sure he gonna have some routine sets and some routine matches which he doesn't will want to have to fight as much as this year. So I would say in this case, actually, I wouldn't be surprised if he even didn't do anything and went to the next year and playing twice as good as he was this year. But Overall, I would what I would try to do, probably if I'm in a final 1000 I skip next 1000. I know it's, it sounds weird, but why? What's four? You're gonna forget how to play tennis, I would skip four days of practicing what is like, what's the reason to go and hit for four days, you know, like, take time off, celebrate, enjoy your moment and come back stronger. And I don't think actually, you need the matches. You need to feel confident and playing matches, even sometimes you when you go to smaller tournaments, you win you don't get confidence, it doesn't build on that. I think sometimes, okay, it helps when you are looking for it when it's only thing you think about. But most of the time it doesn't you go to weaker tournament, you feel like, Oh, I'm number one seeded. So when you win, instead of feeling like, happy about it, you feel relieved. You feel oh, I shouldn't wait. Oh, I won because everybody else was were weaker than I am. It's not like, you build on it, you even go, you know, like you build you the bigger hole under yourself, even you win. So the balance is really difficult for me as a coach, but I would go strongly suggest always take time off, think about it, like, get back to your basics. Set up your life. Start from there, and then decide what next? Do Are we ready for the next tournament? Are we healthy? Do we feel good? Is like everything on point? Are you like even mentally ready to travel again, you know, like, you just cannot take those things for granted. That's the worst thing we can do. We can assume that, Oh, I did that for last five years. So that's what are you gonna do this year? What if this year is different than any other years? And what if those years you did in the past were actually terrible? You just didn't. You know, like right now you don't remember them as terrible years? Because they're in the past. So you always remember good emotions and those really bad, they've been just mediocre and you're like, Oh, okay. So there is no one way of doing it. So I don't feel. Of course, I'm into programming, I love counting volume. I love counting loads, I love I love it. But it's not about it. When we talking about tournaments,

Emily Webley-Smith  1:37:26

And then just on that just taking all of that into account, I just think it proves that it's just the toughest sport in the world for scheduling and for just not knowing what's going to happen on a daily basis. But also on a weekly basis with how many matches we're going to get. And I think has not, you know, in lyrics and in all these other sports where it's a more closed environment, and they're peaking four or five times a year. I think it's testament to the teams around these players and the people who are doing it without teams. That actually it's so so difficult to judge it and to get it right. And even when you've done it for so many years, you still there's still so many things that can come into it. And so many external factors with travel and with a niggle or with an injury or with a day off that wasn't supposed to be a day off or a rain day that was supposed to be a heavy day. And all the time we're adjusting is always fluid from the night before, there can't be many sports in the world where you don't even know the schedule for the next day. Until 7pm 8pm.

Piotr Sierzputowski  1:38:28

I would say the tennis is probably one of not many sports to win, we always trying to catch up, which is for me wrong in the first place, Dan so that I was reading actually the book about bodybuilding. And that was a philosophical question, why we always do four sets, when we didn't try to do one and do the mathematics around it. Like, you know, to do the best. We always think, Oh, I'm not doing great, let's do more. What if I just need more rest? What if I don't need to catch up, I need to recover. I need to catch up to myself. I just need time for myself. That's what is important for me. Like we as coaches, players, people who work around we always push for more why? What's the reason? Maybe it's time to think about recovery. You know,

Freddie Nielsen  1:39:24

It's a very good point because we had a study in Denmark with some rowers. And they were on a program where they had to recover more and not workout as much as they used to. And their times improved. And then when they were offered this program, they went back to training the way they always had instead of this new way that improved so I think we're just it's a very good point. I think it's a weakness and it's a matter of habit and I don't think I like the way you're thinking.

Piotr Sierzputowski  1:39:51

Because for me like I liked the statement from Mike Mansur. He was a bodybuilder. It was 90s but he said you either go intense Are you go along, it's impossible to go long and go intense. It's always one or the other one. So, and why we push for long and intense? You know, like, that's what we do. In our practice, that's what we do in scheduling that that's what we do in like, whole career. What's the final goal of it to make somebody you know, disabled after career? That's, that's really bad thinking for me even like, from organizations, then points, like playing 20 tournaments a year, yeah, push our players to play 20 tournaments, because the product is gonna sell. Yeah, great for one year, and then you have no rivalries, then you have players who are constantly injured. That's not a good product. But everybody Yeah, let's do it. That's gonna be a good product. So

Freddie Nielsen  1:40:48

Tennis is also very strange. So to drop in that sense that our tennis practice times are so arbitrary, why are we hitting an hour? Why are we hitting two hours? Why are we feeding a basket and stuff? I'm trying to challenge myself on that a lot. Because it seems like training times are just set in stone, like, Oh, we got to be important for two hours, and then people on the court for two hours. But what if the practice session is required? It's one hour 37 or 47, or whatever, there's a lot of arbitrary numbers in tennis, or you just feed a basket, the whole basket? And why why do you feed that? And I think there's, there's some room for improvement in the game of tennis, when it comes to that.

Daniel Kiernan  1:41:26

It's such a good and I'm pleased we brought it up, because Piotr I think your words of wisdom on that incredibly thought provoking for all of us. And, in fact, if everyone listening that the one question I would I would ask, and I'd love for everyone's opinion on this before, before we wrap it up, is it not also easier to schedule and program for a player that is ranked as high as Holger rune is, you know, he knows, he knows he's only playing certain events, he knows exactly which events is pretty much gonna play, you know, he's not really playing to 50s Ease team pretty much know that he's gone deep in pretty much every tournament, you know, whereas the majority of tennis players out there and Emily touched on a one day advice, but but to a soul reactive to the events that they're getting in. And so desperate, all sorts of get into those events that are that are bringing the right points and the money. And I actually go back to a certain Mr. Freddie Nielsen, who believe it or not, I've listened to a lot that you've said over the years and, and you've actually played a big role in certainly my philosophies over the years, we've talked a lot of tennis. And I remember Freddie said to me, probably 15, almost 20 years ago, one of the big mistakes is that tennis players go go to tennis tournaments, when they're not 100%, ready, physically and mentally, you know, and actually only going to the event, when you are absolutely ready, you know, you're ready physically and mentally to be able to go there and win the tournament. Whereas I think the tennis players mentality is quite often, let's just go even if I can just win a couple of matches, then I pick up a few points, and that takes my ranking up by 510 spots, and then, you know, I'll get a little bit of money, and then and then something might just magically form from there. You know, and that that kind of Treadmill way of thinking, I think is so ingrained not, by the way, not just in in absolute top peak level, high performance tennis, but in tennis academies. You know, I think, I mean, it's brutal, you know, being a tennis coach at a tennis academy, and, you know, even the players in the fitting in school and, you know, round school, they've got to do X amount of hours, and then they've got to play the tournament at the weekend. It's it is it is pretty relentless. And it feels like a hamster wheel at times that we're all kind of on. So I think if we can take those words PRT, and we can maybe start writing a book, let's get the PRT book written because I think it's a really nice way. Nice way of looking at it. And guys, I've kept you long enough talking of relentless talking of hamster wheels. It says feels like we've got on the hamster wheel a little bit here and horses jumped up off the hamster wheel. So I'm seeing my opportunity for us to for us to get out of here. As always, love, love, love having you guys on here. I really do and appreciate every every minute that you guys give up. It's invaluable. I really do believe that you know, I had a bit of a joke with you guys on the WhatsApp group before I'm that 160 countries and are listening to this podcast. But there's a lot of people around the world that are you know, that is true, different countries that are listening and and to get your valuable insight to get to peek in and listen to these conversations is incredible for them. So my last question, we did this. We did this three years ago. I want to bring the tape up maybe two years ago. We picked how many Grand Slams Novak Djokovic would win. I remember my pick at the time. I won't change it. I will be getting my amazing team that helped on the podcast to be going through the old tapes to find out what others said. So Freddie, if you remember, you've got a you can either change it but you will be being called out on what you said before. quick quiz. How many Grand Slams were Novak chocolate eventually retires? Does he have to his name starting with Emily Webley Smith. 28. Gabby Gaby,

Gaby Dabrowski  1:45:38

that's what I was gonna say. 20

Daniel Kiernan  1:45:41

you can jump in with 28 as well, PRT.

Piotr Sierzputowski  1:45:44

I think 29 And he gonna try to get 30 But he never gonna get it. Ready,

Freddie Nielsen  1:45:53

I wrote 30 I was gonna say 30. But I was gonna say 28 That was my first guest. But now that I've written out there for the world to see 30 I'm gonna say 30 And I'm gonna double up with the Olympic gold medals. Well, I

Daniel Kiernan  1:46:06

was gonna say 60 period. 2626. So nobody went from my magic number. My lucky number. My birthday is 27. I said 27 Two and a half years ago, and everyone laughed at me. You know, and that, you know, that's how it people thought that that number was way too high at the time. So I'm gonna stick to 27. Let's see. Last Last Last Last question. At what point do we all start respecting a little bit more than we currently do? And I'm not just talking about this podcast. It's there for him and what are you talking? So what I'm talking about is an I'm softening. I'm softening. Again, I'm probably a big softy. And I love history. But I am starting to soften a little bit to know about geography, which never used to be able to watch in place to turn the telly off. But I am enjoying the history that is happening. And I think there becomes a point where the mood, the outlook, the tone, the way that we look at Novak jock events changes over the next couple of years than it has been over the last 15 I don't know if anybody agrees. But that's my thought.

Freddie Nielsen  1:47:16

I think you're right. And I think also there's a thing right now that everything has to be so black and white. I quite like him to just be who he is and own it. I think the biggest issue for me is trying to change the fact that he's a bit of a volatile crazy guy on the court. I kind of like that own up to it. And he's actually he does a lot of good off the court that not a lot of people know about funding people's career, supporting financially doing all sorts of stuff. And I think tennis wise I think you got a point in the same way that I kind of warmed up to Sampras more after he played as well. I thought he was fairly boring when he was playing. But afterwards I started to appreciate his quality more and I think you're quite right about Novak but it the problem is he's up against Roger and Rafa. He's never gonna compete with them when it comes to eye candy tennis. So yeah, I don't know. I think he's getting a lot of respect as for them, but maybe he won't be as as well seen as the other guys.

Daniel Kiernan  1:48:16

Guys, thank you. And the message will be going out in about 10 days time about Wimbledon. You never have to come on. But we would love to have you guys back. It's Grand Slam tennis around the corner. A big big thank you to you all. And we will see you next time. Thank you. What another cracker that was honestly, like we, we could talk for hours and hours and and we do you know, a little share a little story myself and Freddy Nielsen, we stayed on the call for another hour or so after. And then I sent a little whatsapp on the group to say honestly guys, brilliant job, thank you so much. Because genuinely, you know, they give up so much of their time for free, you know, to bring these amazing insights to everybody. And Emily responded and said, well actually me and Gabby have just got off the phone we've been debriefing on the chat. It was such a rich chat that we took so much from and this is a one 1am In the morning, you know and this is what happens when you get passionate people in the world of tennis together you know talking very openly and honestly about subjects that are close to their heart and I hope that comes through I really do because it does for me you know when I'm while I'm having the conversation, it feels like they're conversations that could lead to change in certain aspects as well. And I would love to hear your feedback guys as always on what you think, you know, is it working? Do you like the reviews? Do you like the previews? And and what do you think of our brilliant panelists because for me to be able to send those messages on to them is something that will be brilliant to do. And on the topic that was was so hotly talked about it it was talks about by many, whether it was social media, whether it was at the event, you know, Cato being defaulted, Shashi Shunji, it opens up the topic of, do we have the rules? Right? You know, are they clear. And I think even the fact that a bunch of tennis people couldn't quite get get that clear shows how ambiguous that really is. And Gabby sent us a message this morning, just to let us know exactly what it says about the rule. And, and ultimately, it's down to action plus result. If the action is malicious, and the result is all goods, there can be a default, it's at the discretion of the umpire. If the action is unintentional, but the result is harm to someone, then it is a default. You know, now what we're basically saying there is it actually depends on the harm that happens, you know, more so than it does actually the the action or the intent of what was done. And I think we can all agree, it's just not clear enough, you know, it's for, for players, when there's so much money on the line, there's so many points on the line. And we're not talking about the best best players in the world because they don't need it. But doubles players who are playing in the second round, third round of a Grand Slam, that's big money, that's money that's putting food on their family's table for the rest of the year. You know, that's allowing them to get flights to all the different parts of the world that they need to have, you know, they can't afford to be missing out on that. Because is it their wrongdoing? Or is it not, but let's make the rules really clear. You know, even if the rule is harsh, let's make sure it's a clear harsh rule, you know, and right there, it's really not clear. So Gaby, thank you for sending that through. Hopefully that helps everyone understand what the ruling is. And as Gabby said, he was on the board with the WTA. They're going to look at trying to push some of those things through, as I could again, talk for longer because the topics was so rich, but I'm sure you have your own opinions. And I'm sure that you have loved listening to them. So I'm not going to do that. But I am going to leave you if the excitement of Wimbledon, which is approaching the grass code season has started. A couple of days ago, we had the referee Andrew Jarrett, of Wimbledon of 14 years who was on the podcast. If you haven't listened to that episode, do you just need to click up one and you'll get Andrew Jarrett and all of his amazing stories coming through which will whet the appetite for the grass court season. Even more. So. I'm certainly looking forward to it. I'm hoping to get the panel back together in a couple of weeks. The Grand Slams are coming thick and fast. So we can preview what is going to happen. I'm not going to be stupid. I'm not gonna go against Novak Djokovic, this time. It's hard to see him not picking up 24 But hey, tennis is played on a tennis court. It's not played on paper. So let's see what happens. I hope you are well wherever you are in the world. Thank you for your support. We love having you guys as part of the Control the Controllables community. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables