Janet Jackson at 60: The Blueprint of Pop with Brittany Spanos

0:05 Hey everyone, so my name is Randy Kim from the Bunmi Chronicles podcast and I am very honored and so excited to have this next guest on. Her name is Brittany Spanos. She's a renowned music journalist and former senior writer for Rolling Stone magazine. Throughout her tenure at the magazine, she authored more than 15 cover stories profiling icons such as Lorde, Adele, Harry Styles, Janelle Monae, and Addison Rae. And beyond her long-form profiles, Spanos has gained acclaim for her insightful commentary on music history and in the culture. She currently produces Britpop, a weekly newsletter where she reviews new music and rounds up the week's most essential pop news for a dedicated community of subscribers.

0:50 and she has been also a recurring guest on DJ Louie's Pop Pantheon Podcast which this is how I found you and I am an avid listener of that show and I've always appreciated your appearances on there and I know that you recently left Rolling Stone Magazine and now transitioning to your own independent Substack and how has that transition been since leaving Rolling Stone Magazine after so many years? I mean, it's been fun. I mean, I think there's a lot of, you know, a lot of fun exploring different things and working on different projects and, you know, on the freelance side, working for different publications and editors and all that, but also just on the more independent side of kind of managing this platform and engaging with people a little bit more directly has been really enjoyable and really, really fun.

1:42 Yeah and also I think it's kind of interesting to see the landscape of journalism these days especially in the age of AI and the economy and also the less investments that people are putting into the newsroom and I'm curious about how do independent writers like you're trying to navigate this difficult climate I mean it's really just keep writing in any way possible you know I think that's kind of where we're all at is like I think everyone is you know in so many ways having to relearn I guess in the same way that we have had to relearn repeatedly of how to kind of maximize getting eyes on a piece and especially you know really important piece or things that you know are great for the general public to have access to or information on and you know I think that's such a big part of it now of like Any way that we can sort of promote, self-promote, either, you know, doing an independent platform like Substack or being a part of a publication is so critical right now of like just encouraging people to read.

2:54 So, you know, I think it's, you know, I think, again, it's just, it really just comes down to keep doing it and keep writing. Like, I don't know. I think there's still, I think there's like answers none of us really have to it in the moment. But I think the most important thing is as long as You know, hopefully there's always still going to be people writing and being encouraged to do that. And I think that's the most important part. Yeah, and I hope that people get a chance to follow on Britney Spanos' Substack, which I'm going to share in the episode notes. So I wanted to talk to you about Janet Jackson. Now, this has been something that I've been wanting to have a deep dive conversation. She's been in the conversation for the longest time and we're in a bit of a time crunch so we'll see if we can try to encapsulate her entire legacy in under an hour if it's even possible I know it's not going to be like the pop pantheon where there's like three different episodes two hours each and so getting into an overview of her career we look at the first two albums Janet Jackson, her self-titled album in 1982 and Dream Street in 1984 didn't break through until 1986's Control album and during the period of 1986 to 2002 there was a period where she was just unstoppable it was hits after hits and this culminated in 27 top 10 hits 10 of them which hit number one she found success as an actress in Poetic Justice in 1993 and then The Nutty Professor 2 in 2004

4:25 She has sold over 100 million records worldwide, which makes her one of the best-selling music artists of all time. And then we go into the Super Bowl halftime show in 2004, which was the career turning point and how it would change how people viewed her and how she viewed her own career moving forward and then you know getting to the last couple years with the revival of Janet Jackson how has that been looking since the documentary that came out in 2021 through lifetime and what does it mean now and as she turns 60 years old which is very hard to believe it's kind of like disorienting that You know, a lot of our older pop figures are reaching to that age.

5:09 Like Madonna's almost 70 years old. She was performing at Sabrina, at Coachella. And I'm very interested in having this conversation because I feel like Janet's career is still kind of a mystery to a lot of people because she was a longtime hit maker, revolutionary artist, you know, with the music videos during MTV. And then All of a sudden it's been kind of like crickets in some ways like yes she's still touring she's doing residencies but it doesn't have the same effect as say Madonna's Celebration Tour or you know the like it's kind of like she's along the lines of a new edition or Boyz II Men which are basically trying to just keep their careers going versus like A star like Madonna or Beyonce where they perform in arenas to stadiums.

6:03 Yeah, I'm curious about your own feelings about Janet Jackson growing up and what you saw of her. Yeah, I mean, I grew up, you know, I was born in the early 90s, so a lot of my pop culture... Fandom was really being molded by late 90s early 2000s pop music and so it was the Britney Spears Christina Aguilera NSYNC Backstreet Boys Max Martin pop moment You know, and I think that particular time was so informed by Janet. You know, it's like this was still a moment where, you know, we were seeing Janet on MTV with, you know, with Britney or with NSYNC or with, you know, any of the artists of that time and alongside all of these artists as well with All For You and that album of course being as big as that was in the early 2000s so I think there was this mix of in the same way with Madonna like these icons and also you know Michael Jackson to a degree at that point of like these are still like really big icons and legends from before I was even born and who had been who were at like kind of the pinnacle of pop success the decade before I was born who are still active and around and still and are now in that moment of being revered so my relationship with her was very much in tandem

7:33 with my relationship with pop music kind of building and budding and growing and all of that so you know I became a big fan of hers over the years I've always you know I think she's I think her I think she's you know obviously one of the big Blueprints of pop music now. So I think there's a lot of artists who would not be doing what they're doing without Janet as their as their blueprint. But yeah, I mean, I think it's been obviously very complicated in The time since the Super Bowl has been complicated even in recent years. I don't know that there's always, you know, I think there's so many factors that kind of affect that legacy for her in a way that Madonna doesn't necessarily have.

8:23 And I kind of, I see them as like the two pillars of pop music in that way and very kind of equal in that because I think pop music as we see it now are very much built from the two of them. But It's very fascinating because I think Madonna doesn't have the family aspect that Janet has or the child star aspect that Janet has of her brother looming over her career in ways that have at times been detrimental and at times overshadowing her own talents. Janet's a Black woman in music and it was already a pretty Incredible thing for her to defy a lot of the regulations around Black women and sexuality and continue to make the music as she did in the 90s and into the 2000s as she was aging and as she was, you know, reaching her, you know, 30s and 40s that at a time like in that era was still so rare, I guess, for people to really accept that women age and can still be provocative and sexy and successful.

9:29 And so, um, You know she really defied a lot of odds for so long and then it's I feel like it's her legacy in this moment is still figuring itself out or how to I guess maintain that legacy in a specific way is still figuring itself out. Yeah what's interesting was when she started out she was a child star and she was on different strokes and I'm losing the name of the other good times and and when she was starting her music career this was not by choice her father you know pushed her into the music industry and she released her self-titled album in 1982 also same year when Thriller came out as a 16 year old and that album really didn't do well follow up to like 1984 that album Dream Street also didn't try very well but also This was also around the Michael Jackson thriller era where it basically swallowed all the attention.

10:31 And then you got Prince's Purple Rain soundtrack. I wonder about what do you think was not clicking for Janet in that particular era as a teenage star? I mean I think just really trying to find her identity you know I think it was so much her figuring out who she was as uh as a artist outside of the Jackson family experience you know of the of the Jackson 5 of her brother having already having just found his identity you know I think that was such a big thing about Thriller was that it was massive on so many levels but was also such a um A moment of Michael himself figuring out his own identity as an adult pop star.

11:16 So Janet was still younger. She was still a teen pop star. I think still had the trappings and boundaries that a teen pop star sort of confined in and to what they can do or what people want to hear from them or what they can say. So, you know, I think so much of it was just it really was not clear to the world who Janet Jackson was. outside of the Jackson family still like I think that really was what it came down to and I think we've seen that repeatedly so much with with child stars with you know celebrities from huge like show business families or who have siblings or parents who are very famous like I think of even just like a Sabrina Carpenter where it took so long For anyone to really like figure out what her thing was because she was taking so long to figure out what her thing was or like what the identity was outside of Child Star and things like that so you know it wasn't a super uncommon I guess like rode those first couple of albums of her kind of not not taking off in the same way that her brother was Yeah and then she struck gold in 1986 with the Control album and this came right on the heels of her quick elopement to James the Barge, her husband and then also getting out of the control from her father and this would create the Control album where it was about her own independence as like a 19 year

12:48 old woman and She also met with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis and what did those two bring to the table because instantaneously the magic just happened and then also Paula Abdul too also her credit with the choreography I mean you also saw Janet become very dedicated to that which is which sets apart from her own brother Yeah yeah I mean the music it grew up I think that was a big part of it I think there was something really fresh and you know Exciting about the type of production that Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis are bringing to it. You know, I think it was also just the perspective shifted in such a smart way. Again, like the concept of control, the concept of, you know, carving out that space of who she is and and really bringing identity and also really emphasizing the things that she is so special at which she's an incredible dancer and she's extremely charismatic and she but she has this like really kind of you know almost like cat like like sex appeal to how she approaches performance and approaches um you know her own stage and video and song presence so I think this was such a great moment of all those things converging and all those things becoming um You know, really great pop weapons for her.

14:11 Again, just carried again by the fact that it's really great pop songs created with these two really smart and brilliant producers. Yeah, I think what really struck me about Control was that it was both hard and tender at the same time. I mean, you had like, what have you done for me lately? And Nasty, where she had this memorable line, don't call me baby, I'm Janet, Miss Jackson, if you're nasty, which was a very bold statement for a 19 year old to be saying. And And I think that really sent the shockwaves and like, wow, this is a very confident person that knows what she's talking about. And Control was the autobiographical song. And you look at Let's Wait a While and Pleasure Principle and When I Think of You, which is like the more tender, loving songs.

14:58 And When I Think of You is like really one of my favorite songs. And also her first number one song, which every concert that I've gone to, she will always remind people that it was her first number one song, you know? Yeah and when we get to the Rhythm Nation album there was a lot of pressure for her to follow up and control and there was record execs telling her that you really need to make an album just as successful as control and there was always this fear of a sophomore slump or is this whole thing a fluke you know because she's still having to answer Michael Jackson related questions you know by this point and so what do you think made this album in particular a successful one and avoided the sophomore slump yeah I mean this album had such a defining image to it you know the the kind of uniform that she was wearing on on the cover and in the video and um this like very kind of obviously leans more socially conscious in the lyrics I think is a really big statement from a young woman in pop music to make and to do and sort of in her own songwriting and in her own presentation I think even at that time felt feels like sort of like this brave act from a woman in pop music to make any sort of like strong statement like that I think we take for granted the fact that there were so many decades of pop artists who just avoided doing that and it was so rare to have someone like a Janet or you know anyone to

16:30 kind of speak up in those ways and so But yeah I mean it was also like a lot more musical experimentation you know a lot more kind of I don't know her really just kind of growing who she was as an artist like I think that's so much a part of this is like she was still so much like experimenting with you know not identifying herself with like one specific sound or one specific kind of angle like I think of like Black Cat and that song of course being this like incredible kind of like heavy like rock cut in the middle of the album and how inspirational that song has been to you know it's like people like Rihanna and Britney Spears and Beyonce have all cited that song is like really influential on them and that was such a rarity in pop music for a black woman to make this kind of like heavy hair metal type song um in the middle of her album yeah I think that's a great point that you bring up too and also when you look at the Rhythm Nation song itself I mean the video was so iconic and like the dance moves were just so impeccable like I don't think I've ever seen anything like that I mean it was very much a game changer and it fed into the social consciousness with that song along with Black Cat and State of the World and um the knowledge so this was like her way of trying to speak out

18:01 on what was happening as a black woman and another part that people forget about is that the song Miss You Much which you know for a while it was on TikTok you know people were doing the dance craze to it but what people do forget and somehow I don't know how this gets hidden but the infamous chair the famous chair dance that she would do towards the end Yeah I mean I'd like to see anyone that still do it because like right now there's like the TikTok challenge of people doing the Madonna squats at the Drowned World which was still incredible I mean that was a signature dance move for her for a long time yeah you know but yeah like what else songs really do stand out to you about that album because this had seven top five hits which was a record Yeah I mean I've always really loved Escapade that one's been a favorite of mine um yeah I mean I am like a huge huge Black Cat fan I mean the title track's like incredible yeah I mean it's just like it's such a mix yeah it's like the in the same way that you described with control of like the softness and the hardness like I think there's such this like really great mix of moments like Miss You Much and Escapade which are so like Peak 80s pop songs right like so like you know in the vein of a great top 40 hit with these moments that are a little edgier and a little less um less expected of her or less expected to kind of be in contrast to those like very kind of peak 80s

19:32 pop moments um so I've always really loved that that contrast of it but yeah Escapade is is definitely definitely a favorite of mine Yeah, I think a song that really stands out to me that people forget about is Come Back to Me. I mean, the video to it is just, it's a very beautifully done video. I think it was shot in Paris. And it's one of my favorite Janet Jackson ballads too. And I wonder what made her stand out By this point apart from her brother, you know, because I think that she really need to stand out from her brother like she wanted to be called Janet, which obviously will come into her next album, which was purposely titled as such so that the Jackson wasn't carrying that she wasn't carrying the Jackson name.

20:16 So I'm curious about like, like what did like what ways did she try to really stand out away from her brother? Yeah I mean I don't know I think it's I mean it's complicated because I feel like again like even just in terms of my own listening or like learning about Janet comes so much in tandem with Michael and so I like to me it feels like even at sort of these like dual peaks I can't imagine that it was like very easy for people to even separate them still in that way like I think there was like that mix of competition happening the mix of you know the kind of I'm curious like what it was like in real time then but for me they've always just been so intertwined like I think again it is already kind of incredible for her to have found success outside of that because It was a pretty daunting thing to do probably in terms of that post thriller like your brother has made like the best selling album of all time to even be able to stand on your own in any capacity is pretty daunting for Janet to have accomplished at all but yeah I don't know I'm I I still am not sure kind of how that even occurred in that time I feel like that's sort of like the a thing that is pretty incredible about her and remarkable about her career I think a lot of it for me is like the 90s her 90s pivot is to me more of that of

21:47 her really kind of solidifying herself as an artist so unlike her brother and so outside of his kind of pop world and so I think in the 80s to me it still feels so kind of I know intertwined in some capacity in terms of the types of influences they're pulling from and the type of music I mean they both kind of had these moments of the kind of like metal like hair metal leaning songs right like they had like these like but they're also still fusing like disco and R&B like they both are kind of in the same same zone musically within the 80s and I think the 90s for me is where that actual kind of separation of the two identities or of the Jackson sort of family identity becomes More prevalent and more apparent in Janet's own work.

22:34 Yeah. And I think 1993 was a very interesting year for her because this was where she was really reaching the zenith of her career. Like Janet, the 1993 album, which had a long two year run, was like her biggest selling album to date. The tour was very successful. She was now digging intersexuality. Bánh Bánh Bánh I don't think she went as far as Madonna did but close enough because I think that in a way like there are people like well what happened to let's wait a while what happened to the rhythm nation social justice oriented person so but somehow she was able to surpass that and um There were so many memorable songs.

23:28 Tina Landon became her choreographer and you saw the Throb performance in SNL. Honestly, one of the best house music songs out there. You want this. which had a very memorable video and Because of Love again which was the featured song on the Poetic Justice soundtrack and got her an Oscar nomination That's the Way Love Goes had a good seven to eight weeks at number one the If video I mean who could forget that incredible bridge where she does her famous karate chop dance you know and I think it's kind of wild but at the same time At the height of her career, she also had to deal with the allegations against her brother Michael.

24:17 And in the documentary, she did briefly talk about that part where she was about to sign a deal with Coca-Cola, I believe. And when the allegations came out, they basically pulled that deal under the rug. And so I wonder how the scandals actually, in a way, maybe affected her and how she would proceed the rest of her career. Yeah I mean you know that again that's such the that's why so much of this it's I am I guess I don't know is exactly how to unpack the ability that she had to separate herself in her music because of that but also it's very clear that there was just enough of that presence that she had as an artist to let her music be successful in its own right and like create and allow her to like create a legacy in her own right outside of her brother but still because of the family-ness of the Jackson family careers and the intertwining of all that for so long and the image that still existed I think in the public eye of Janet and Michael and of them being sort of the breakouts of their own family of their siblings you know ended up coming back to really haunt them in that way or to coming back to really haunt Janet specifically in that way of, you know, no matter how much she had proven of herself in her career to

25:50 that point and beyond, she still was going to be seen as Michael's sister and still have to pay in some way for the things that he had been accused of or be related to it. That being said, she had always been a pretty staunch defender of him and I think that's a lot of it as well she stood by him through a lot of these allegations and I believe continues to show support for him if I'm not mistaken I'm not sure in more recent years how she's how she's spoken about it but I know at least while he was alive and during sort of the peak of this she did spend a lot of time supporting him and I think that also is part of it as well um but yeah I don't know it's it's a it's a complicated sort of thing just because this was a family band you know like this was like a these were all siblings who were trying to break out I mean the same way we think of any pop group of you know we're always going to think of Harry Styles as part of One Direction right like we're always going to think of Justin Timberlake as being part of NSYNC like no matter what that never leaves them and obviously it's even crazier when you're you know siblings like are also trying to like break out and it's very clear you know again obviously all the siblings were trying to break out in their own way but but yeah I mean Janet Janet broke through in the way that Michael did and obviously that made her more of a liability when when those allegations

27:21 became public yeah and and she really doubled down in her defense of Michael with the song scream that she did with her brother it was the only collaboration Well, I mean, she did do the backing vocals of PYT with her sister Latoya and Michael. But this was their first and only official collaboration. Music video was out of this world. I mean, you look at this video, it's like, wow, you would not have thought that this was made in 1995. I mean, it was one of the most expensive videos ever made. And it... I mean, just iconic. I don't think that there's any words behind it.

28:03 And then she released her design of a decade, which is kind of like a greatest hits compilation. Yeah. the song Runaway became a big hit she had the song 24 play which is a long forgotten song but she was but in that music video she was trying to play the role of Dorothy Danbridge which would later go to Holly Berry and and I think this is kind of where she was trying to think about what to do after this big monstrous success and then you know dealing with the fallout of her brother's scandal and then this would lead to the velvet rope and it felt I think when I was a 14-year-old kid, I was very excited about this Janet album, but it was a very different Janet.

28:50 Like in the cover of the album, you don't see her face, you see her looking down. And you look at the video to God Till It's Gone with Q-Tip and it's very laid back. It's pretty much more of her in the background just singing along and then like you know she had a completely new hairstyle. She wasn't trying to stand out in some way but she was just kind of like more of a in the backdrop. I thought that was a very interesting choice of a first single and how she came into that album I don't know if you have any thoughts because this was her album that's probably her most personal I mean she spoke about depression she talked about queerness which became a queer album for a lot of folks she talked about marital abuse and And all of the things on that album.

29:48 So yeah, what were your thoughts on that particular album? Yeah, I mean, you know, it's so again, like I think her 90s output is so interesting. And so, you know, again, the thing that really, I think is so defining to her legacy and so defining to how we think of and You know celebrate Janet Jackson as an artist now and still but yeah I mean I think this album kind of it feels like such a fusion of the like the beginnings of the social consciousness that she expressed in Rhythm Nation and in that album and kind of where she her mind even was at that point and obviously was able to take it so much further and so much deeper with Velvet Rope and you know again like you said like intertwine it with the personal aspect intertwine it with the sexuality that's so important on her self title with Janet I think this was a moment of her image very drastically shifting you know I think even from um Control and Rhythm Nation, those albums were still like a little bit more conservative in her own expression of her body and her sexuality and her as like a, you know, kind of not necessarily, I don't know, maybe I'm trying to think of the right word to describe it because it's so much...

31:13 you know so many more layers than just like being like a sex symbol in that way but I think at least in the 90s she was able to explore being an artist being a grown woman who can talk about sex and sexual intimacy and combine that with these conversations about mental health about social issues about you know the world at large and you know I think this album as kind of this really conceptual piece still holds up in so many ways Yeah, it's also one of our most critically acclaimed albums. And also, the tour behind The Velvet Rope was a massive success. I think that's probably one of my favorite live performances that she's done on tour. And also, during this time, after the tour was over, She also later got a divorce from Renee Elizondo Jr., her second husband.

32:04 And this was a secret marriage she kept for eight years, which blows my mind to this day. One thing about Janet that sets apart from the other pop stars is that she values her privacy big time. And also that when she's not doing an album cycle, she kind of goes into her Sade hiatus. You don't really hear from her. And I think in a way, Like, the idea of attracting fame the way Madonna seeks it out is very different. Like, I think that she's very averse to that. Would you agree? Yeah, I mean, I think that's a big element I think that was part of.

32:45 what both her and Michael experienced you know I think that was like kind of the separation of them even with their own siblings you know it's like they very much they saw what it looked like to become very famous and Janet had experienced that firsthand from a very young age and you know then experienced it again as she became a young woman who was pursuing this career and on her own and and wanting to be a celebrity and or not wanting to be a celebrity but wanting to not necessarily be a celebrity, but be, you know, an artist and be very successful at being an artist. And so, you know, I think that was so interesting about the Velvet Rope and about the marketing behind it, because obviously there was the kind of shock value of the eroticism of the self-titled.

33:34 And I think she was able to sort of harness a little bit of that still, but find a way to do it in a way that Allow the songs to speak first rather than the shock of like, you know, having a, you know, like the Rolling Stone cover with her boobs covered with, you know, her partner's hands or something like I think there was that this kind of balance for her of like, okay, how can I continue to dig deeper into the subject matter that feels really important as an artist but also experiment with the presentation of it and experiment with how I want to present myself as the face of it or what that means to shroud my face in these moments or play with my public image but yeah I think it's always been so fascinating how much she has really shied away from the celebrity aspect of pop stardom More so than most other women in music and women in pop culture and women at her level especially just because I don't know I don't think a lot of them have had the choice either way but you know she really kind of figured out the best way to kind of let herself exist a little bit more a little bit more privately but again I think you know very largely informed by the child star aspect by the continuing Michael stuff at the time you know it's like all of that kind of I think gave her more purpose to be like I need to protect myself a little bit more yeah I think it's a really good point because she's been a child search and she was

35:04 practically two years old and so like if you see her interactions on a normal life the glimpses that you do see she hangs out with her dancers quite a bit and so she values having friends that are not celebrities you know there are just people that she works very closely with in collaboration so I think in some ways that there's this yearning need for normalcy in her life that you know that she felt like she was robbed of and and when we look at the All For You album which would come out in 2001 this came off the heels of the Nutty Professor and her successful song Doesn't Really Matter another number one hit She was celebrated by MTV as one of their icons and you know there's this amazing display like you know Pink and Maya, Aaliyah presented outcasts and you had like a number of celebrities that were giving her her shine and by this point she was in her mid-30s now and this is kind of where You know, this is kind of like you're at a crossroads.

36:04 As a woman, as a Black woman, there's very few outliers that can go past it, like say a Tina Turner, maybe Cher, or Cher for example. But like in her mid-30s, this also came with a How do you think she was viewed during this time by the general public as a 35 year old and how do you think she was still thriving when the competition felt very stiff Well I think a lot of it is there is a very clear through line in pop music from Janet, Madonna and Michael and Prince like you know it's like one of those things where it's never been more like transparent that every single pop star of the late 90s or low 2000s were heavily inspired by some combination of those four artists and you know the fact that and I think on top of that those artists still felt so recent you know it's like it was not that long since you know they were still actively releasing music they were all still actively touring they were all still pretty young um and still like you know working and still very present um And touring and performing at the same way that they had done for the last,

37:36 you know, at that point, like 15, 20 years of their, you know, for at least, you know, for Janet and Michael, their solo careers. But, you know, it was like one of those things where it was like, it wasn't like the influences of these pop stars were going back beyond, like going to the 70s or for artists who no longer were actively performing. It's not like they were all pulling from The Beatles you know I mean obviously Paul's you know like they weren't pulling from an era that felt very bygone like this era still felt so hugely influential and still so hugely like present still and still existing so it was kind of a fascinating intersection at that time because I think remembering just my own experience of it I was like it's like those artists were still like you know they were still releasing new music you know it's like we have um Janet, of course, Velvet Rope is still lingering, All 4 You is about to come.

38:33 I remember when All 4 You came out. I remember that album still feeling so important in my life. I think it's still my favorite album of hers. Or even Madonna doing Confessions. Those albums were so big in those moments. But then also there was that extra layer of these teenagers and 20-somethings who I am obsessed with and listen to Only exist because of these artists or like are so heavily inspired by them. So it was such an interesting dichotomy that I think we experience now in a little bit of a similar way that like, but you know, I think when we think of artists, even the artists that they were inspired by, a lot of them burnt out really fast or like weren't performing still or kind of were like a little bit more of a bygone era that passed very quickly.

39:21 And it was interesting to kind of be able to celebrate these artists as they were also still in competition with the artists that they sort of created in a way. Yeah. And I think when I think of the All For You album, that was also a game changing album for me. As a soon-to-be 18-year-old, I remembered at prom night and when All For You came on, I was dancing my butt off and kind of won Best Dancer of the Year by my class because of that song, which I will always be thankful for. It was like one of the biggest songs of that year, followed by Someone to Call My Lover, another top 10 hit that she also grabbed along the way. And then we get into, fast forward to 2004, Janet is now in her late 30s, you know, and she was now going to be the headliner for the Super Bowl halftime show.

40:08 And What the halftime show did was expose Janet, no pun intended, as a person who was relatively unscathed for years in the public eye, not like a tellboy drawer like her brother or Madonna or Whitney or Britney, but she then After that show, she became an overnight punchline for late night talk shows and it went beyond that. She would lose the role of playing Lena Horne for the biopic because Lena basically said, I don't want her betraying me anymore. and then you've got like radio stations and MTV pulling out their music playlist her music away from her away from just not playing them period and so like it was kind of astonishing to see how quickly a career just vanished overnight and she was about to release the Demeter Joe album unfortunately had the Competition of Usher's Confessions album, which was already a massive, massive hit.

41:21 And this was the first time that she yielded no top 40 singles, which was surprising to me. I mean, when you think of All Night, that should have been at least a top 10 hit. It's a favorite of many Janet fans. And I Want You, which was produced by Kanye West, who was very much a rising star that year. Wow. Yeah, why do you think her career diminished so quickly and why do you think it has taken this long for her to regain her relevance? I mean, I think it was a combination of a really bad convergence of things that were happening in pop culture, but also things that sort of followed throughout her career, which is the fact that, you know, the first thing is that Black women have very different respectability politics that um they must adhere to in their careers and in their presentation I think um again that's why it was so striking but also captivating and trailblazing that Janet and Janet the album and Velvet Rope were successful and were so um you know because they were also so artfully and masterfully done and sort of delivering much more kind of erotic subject matter or presentation or lyrics and um things like that so you know it was already incredible that she could break through in that way but obviously again much of her career up until that point had been a much more sort of conservative presentation um to adhere to what the public

42:53 expected of a young black woman in pop music you know she wasn't going to be able to rise on the floor like like Madonna you know she wasn't going to be able to wear um the same type of clothes that other female pop stars were wearing at the time like I think there was a very different expectation that she was always upheld to um and you know was able to prove herself artistically for so long as someone who can kind of convey many many multitudes of things in her music and in her presentation but you know we enter in the 2000s she's one older um Two, like you said, gone pretty unscathed publicly for a very long time.

43:38 We're now in the Bush administration. The politics of the US were changing very rapidly. Sex education was being replaced with abstinence programs in schools. We were in a pretty hyper-Christian type of mentality of pop culture in America. So, you know, what was expected of women at that time, of people on any public platform at that time, was very different, especially, again, for Black women. And given, again, the fact that she's a Black woman who is getting older, a Black woman who was on stage with a beloved white man, who at that time was very much seen as a kind of and you know like kind of divine pop prince um that people were really excited about um you know she was the the sacrificial lamb in that and I think there were so many elements of the whatever the Viacom got who who was the guy uh Les Moonves uh yeah I was like what was this insane name um Les Moonves having it out for her um At that time, you know, Justin's pretty terrible way of defending her and basically just like getting off scot-free.

45:06 Like, I think there was just so many elements to it. And I think given I don't know even just the way it happened like it's like you see I don't know it's just like it's I feel like people just wanted to be able to pinpoint someone as the blame for it because viewers were upset and the person they had to blame was Janet because it was her boob and so you know it's like it was just it's kind of ridiculous all around and it's so ridiculous when you think about it now where you're just like how did this like even Escalate to that point and I mean but then again like we see it all the time I think it's like one of those things where you know even just like a month ago people wanted like you know Chapel Rhone's head on a platter because she like didn't like was it nice enough to a child like you know it's like stuff like that where it's like and then you watch the way people talk about it for and obviously these are not like one-to-one experiences for sure but like you know we watch it in real time in social media where it was later revealed that most of the people who We're tweeting about it.

46:11 We're bots. And like it was like not a real, you know, it wasn't a real sort of dialogue that was existing. People just fell for this like, you know, programming to hate a woman. And at that time, obviously, kind of pre-social media as we know it now, but it wasn't much different. Like, you know, the way that tabloids worked at that time, the way that celebrity culture worked at that time. They hated women like they really did like they really hated you know women after a certain amount of time you know it's like it's only a couple years later people would be kind of chasing Britney Spears down streets in LA you know or basically like just laughing at Amy Winehouse several years later until she died you know I think there was this Real hatred for women and I think again like Janet being an older black woman and older in the sense of older than 21 like at that time like it just it just meant that it was it was over for her Yeah, and I think that by the time she would do Domina Joe, then she would release 20YO in 2006 and 2008, the Discipline album, all of which just did not chart well at all.

47:38 And I think maybe in best summation, it was also important to note that she stopped working with Jimmy Jam, Terry Lewis for a time during 2006 and then for the 2008 Albums and I'm not a fan of 20YO I this is an album I do not have a I have a hard time going back to but I will say Discipline I felt like deserved better like feedback should have been at least a top five hit Rock With You should have at least charted at the very very least which blows my mind because that song to me is like one of my all-time favorite Janet songs I don't know if you have any thoughts about those three albums in particular Yeah, I mean, I feel like I just haven't spent a lot of time with them.

48:20 And because I just, you know, the times I did listen to them again, like, like you said, they're just like, not as as strong in that way. And I do love like feedback is a really good song. But I mean, it is interesting. I saw her live for the first time, like, Maybe a year or two ago and I think pretty much that entire era is like not in her live shows even like I don't think she did She did rock with you actually surprised me I was shocked There was like one song from that moment that was in there And maybe On Night and maybe On Night too because that's a fan favorite Yeah I mean I don't I think for the most part it wasn't a lot I think she had done some Demita maybe I'm I think On Night is probably the only one Yeah And yeah, I mean, I know that a lot of that era ends up being kind of left on the table for that.

49:13 But yeah, I'm curious what her relationship is with those albums now. But I'm, you know, should go back and maybe try them again. But I think Demita Jo is a very underrated gem. Yeah, Demita Jo. More specifically, 20-year-old in Discipline, I like don't really, or 20YO. But like, I... Yeah like those those two I really don't like Domina Joe I go back to often but yeah those two I kind of don't um don't spend a lot of time with yeah and I think like after that it's like after the I hate the word failures but after just not reaching the peak level that she was doing in the 90s into her 2000s where she was just struggling to get traction her brother Michael passes away um tailboys were kind of focused onto her too and um And I think when I think as she was grieving she was also doing this memorable MTV tribute performance and even though it was a very powerful performance unfortunately it got overshadowed by Kanye West and Taylor Swift and then maybe to a smaller extent Little Mama like jumping up on stage with Alicia Keys and Jay Z so it's like I just felt like this was another moment that was ruined for Janet and I think by this point she's kind of like I don't want to say given up but like it felt like she was just retreating I think after that performance and she was still she was doing her um

50:45 number ones tour you know it was done in theaters uh theater shows and then she um married with Sam who is a a billionaire and she became very low key to the point where people were asking well where's the new music and This would come out to the 2015 Unbreakable album, which, you know, yielded a minor hit in No Sleep with J. Cole and it kind of like reunited her career. But then, you know, it was kind of weird because she was also going through that divorce with Wissam. Like she was dressed more conservatively and it felt like she wasn't really the Janet that we were accustomed to seeing. And it wasn't until she divorced that And after being a mom, she became more of herself.

51:29 And I think that's kind of where the revival started to begin. The review of Justin Timberlake's personality and his public persona for the past 10, 15 years at that point. So I think that there was this revival. I mean, she got accepted to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and... the Made For Now song in 2018 her last song that she's ever released to this date was another minor hit and a really beautiful video so I think with that said as we kind of start to wrap up with the documentary we have seen that like at least this is my opinion this is something I've shared with the pop pantheon before but like it feels like Janet has not put a lot of focus on her legacy building the way Madonna and Mariah Carey recently have and you know you get some glimpses of TikTok challenges but she struggles to get streaming numbers her YouTube numbers are very low and she hasn't managed that channel well at all and I'm Wonder I feel like it's kind of a mess at the moment maybe it's just me but I I feel like that's kind of what we're noticing because I'm like she deserves better than what she's getting yeah I mean wasn't part of the issue too isn't she being managed by one of her nephews her brother her brother Randy who's a mega oh her brothers yeah yeah I think that was a big part of the issue as well um yeah I mean it's Again, like I saw her a couple years ago, and I remember feeling I guess when was the Together Again tour?

52:58 Was that 2023? Yeah, it was 23 and 24 and 24 too. Yeah, I think I saw it in 24 because I think it was the same year. Or no, I think it's not 2023 because I think it's the same year I saw Madonna's Celebration tour. I remember it was like so fascinating seeing the two of them in, you know, Bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh bánh full on like very expensive production I'm like this is like Janet should be doing the exact same thing and that's not to diminish like I think Madonna is doing the exact was doing the exact tour that she should be doing But I want Janet to do a similar one I want it more curated Stop with the melodies too because it drives me nuts I don't like to hear one minute of this I feel like she tries the people please to the point where there's like 40 songs but she only does like 30 seconds of each and I'm like no I'm happy to get rid of a couple songs if we can get the full version Yeah, I was like, I don't know, let's do some, like, bring a man on stage, bring some guy on stage and do,

54:30 like, let's redo that. Get some female dancers, backup dancers, because, I mean, that's also, like, I mean, like, give more variety. And I feel like she's been repeating that same formula for a while. I mean, that was the first time I had been able to see her fully, like, seen her live. And, again, I had a really, I had a great time at the show. I thought it was a really great show, but it was so it was striking to me and it made me really sad because I was just like I want I was like Janet deserves this type of big production because again like her legacy you know a lot of it self maintains and not a lot of artists can say that where it's like a lot of it is just you know it it's or like it's you know it's not self-contained but like it's like sort of as maintaining itself it's maintaining itself and like um I think just in the fact that it exists, that she exists, that there are many, many, many artists who still cite her as their number one and still cite her as their biggest influence.

55:31 I think it's really pleased me in recent years that the conversation about Britney Spears' own legacy as a pop star is constantly intertwined with Janet. And I'm thankful that's more so than Madonna because, you know, I think obviously they work together a lot and her and Janet didn't. But like Britney is Janet's daughter. Yeah, like it's like that's like her biggest inspiration. So I really personally love that that's become the new narrative of the last several years of Britney Spears wouldn't exist without Jared Jackson. You know, like that's like a really nice thing that's shifted, but But yeah I don't know I don't really understand I mean I do understand because she's being mismanaged probably but like I think there's there's something lacking in it and I wonder how much of it is the expectation of a proper comeback or like the anticipation of that in some way because I think sometimes that stalls an artist I feel like I felt the same way about you know Mariah off and on where like I think post I think there was this And I mean, I've loved Mariah's album, his recent albums.

56:43 I think they've been fantastic. But, you know, it's like sometimes you're going to hit the charts again in the same way that you did before. Sometimes you aren't. Does it make it any less impactful? So I was getting really annoyed because I was just like, I feel like she's just like focusing on the Christmas stuff so much. And I'm like, we got so much more we could pull from. We have so much more we can deal with that. I think it's shifting a lot more now. I think there's been, you know, a little bit of a A reassessment of how to approach kind of the combination or the balance of her past career while also moving forward as an artist and continuing to release and tour and still make music and be an active artist without relying too much on just legacy.

57:29 But yeah, I mean, I'm curious what that is for Janet so much. I mean, it does seem clear that she is celebrating her legacy in some way with the Together Again tours. A lot of it was so much about The Greatest Hits and about doing also because it's been a while since she released new music and so that was obviously the purpose of it but I don't know really where she goes from here beyond that like you know is it I mean I don't think the right mode is of competing biopic or like anything else like the documentary was a good start to a lot of it but I think there's so many other ways that she can be going harder in celebrating you know her music and her legacy and and getting it out there I think it's been cool to see when it's like when her music's been sampled of course I think even just like Kendrick Lamar or you know him using anytime anyplace and that creating its own sort of revival but you know I think we'll hopefully see more of that I think hopefully it's she takes more control of it in the future because it would be a real shame to see that wasted in any way Yeah, totally agree with you.

58:37 And as we wrap up, I think one of the advice that I would give to Janet would be like, you know, call Cardi B, call SZA up if they're on tour, you know, make an appearance, you know, like, let people give you your flowers, you know, I think something like that would really help her legacy, you know, and in closing, what would be a song that would be the song that you would be like, yeah, this is my Janet song forever? It would probably be Someone To Call My Lover. I'm such an all for you fan. I think that album is so fantastic all the way through. And I think Someone To Call My Lover is a song that I genuinely would put in like my top 10 songs of all time.

59:23 Like if I had to listen to it for the rest of my life, I very easily could listen to just that song for eternity. Yeah for me when I think of you just one of my favorite charms charming songs and Brittany it was so great to talk to you thank you so much for having me deep dive and uh yeah yeah all the best to you thanks all the best to you as well thanks for