Black Culture's Blueprint on Chicago w/Arionne Nettles

0:04 Hey, everyone. My name is Randy Kim from the Bumby Chronicles podcast. So I'm joined with Arian Nettles. And who is she? She's a professor, culture reporter, and audio aficionado who serves as the Garth C. Reeves Eminent Scholar Chair and Instructor for Digital Journalism at Florida A&M University. As a journalist, her stories often look into Chicago history, culture, gun violence, policing, and race and class disparities. And her work has appeared in the New York Times Opinion, Chicago Reader, The Trace, WTTW, and WBEZ. She is the author of We Are the Culture, Black Chicago's Influence on Everything, published by Lawrence Hill Books, Chicago Review Press.

0:47 And welcome, Marion. I just want to say that I really appreciate reading We Are the Culture. I got this book back in like 2024 when it was released, and it took me a while to finally get to reading. And I've been wanting to have this discussion with you ever since because I think it's very important to unlock more of the history and what's been forgotten or neglected on Black Chicagoans' contributions to Chicago. And first off, how have you been preparing to navigate the start of 2026? Whoo! Um... You know, I really wish I could say that I was super focused and super ready for 2026, but I do not feel ready.

1:33 You know, I know I'm not alone in that, but I think that there's just been so much going on in the world. But what I will say is that I wanted to try to slow down January a little bit for 2026. I felt really rushed at the end of the year. I just kind of couldn't, you know, find my space to do like different projects and things that I wanted to do for myself for the community and so I really you know as I was kind of approaching the first of the year I did try to make a decision to kind of slow down say no a little bit more and maybe just focus on kind of finding a better pace.

2:18 Yeah, and you've been living in Florida very recently to work on your program. And I actually wonder about living in Florida, especially during Governor DeSantis, who has made Florida such a very strong red state in the last couple of years, and also you as a a person who's been a veteran journalist, I kind of wonder, or actually I do want to know, how has that been navigating a field that has gone through backlash and censorship and also living in a place like Florida that has been the center of a lot of the right wing politics, but also like really across the U.S.?

3:03 ? Yeah, I think that it's been really interesting because a lot of the censorship that we are now seeing across the country, we saw first in Florida. So, you know, when we talk about books in schools and challenges to books in libraries and all of these things, we first started to see in Florida. taking African American courses out of schools, or at least off of AP, taking AP versions of those courses out, Florida.

3:45 And so the tack on what people say is DEI, Florida. So now we see it nationwide and that happened maybe, I guess, three months or so after I moved down, cause it was my first semester. So, right when I was moving down, it was kind of happening everywhere. So although I do think Florida is just a really interesting place, I do think that it is a place that we all should really be paying attention to because so many things happen here first and then we'll see it spreading. So, um, people here have been pretty chill because I think it's stuff that they're really used to so you know it's not a big deal if you have to you know feel like you can't teach from a certain book people are kind of used to it I mean of course I think we've seen that even amplify you know like Recently in the news, there are more stories, for example, of teachers being fired for comments about Charlie Kirk, for example.

5:03 And so I do think so. I don't never want to say that it was just like, oh, everything's the same. But I do think that there is a feeling maybe sometimes where it's like, some of this is normal. And then, and that's another thing, right? Like we don't want to normalize these things. Like they shouldn't feel normal because they're not. Right. I think it seems like such a disorienting time these days, like seeing how things have been unfolding in the past two years and seeing the ice raids been happening. What we've seen, what we are seeing now in Minneapolis, what was happening in Chicago before that and Portland and other blue cities.

5:48 I wonder about like, I guess the, the, current political atmosphere in Florida where you're at, but also have there been significant resistance or have there been pushback with the current federal and the Florida government? So I have not seen much pushback between Florida and the federal government, even though the president and the governor are not necessarily friends. They do disagree on some things.

6:29 But, for example, multiple counties and cities in Florida, they're police officers are making, or their police departments rather, the officers are, you know, but their departments are agreeing to work with ICE. So that will then be a contrast, of course, to a city like Chicago, where even Chicago officers were being sprayed with mace by ICE officers, right? Like there was a tension everywhere. And so there's not as big of a tension between what federal agents want to do compared to what local law enforcement wants to do.

7:21 So, for example, you saw, especially in Southern Florida, local police departments working with ICE agents to transport immigrants to... the alligator alcatraz so we see that type of collaboration actually happening or at least at least when it comes to immigration and to start you know shifting gears um with your current book i'm actually i'm actually very curious about like what was your connection to chicago and what makes it feel so deeply personal to you Yeah, so, you know, I was born in Chicago, raised in Chicago.

8:06 Everything about me, I think, is Chicago. Like, it's so deeply... ingrained in everything about me and my family. So when I decided I wanted to write a book and I started kind of thinking through the types of topics that I wanted to write about, I definitely wanted to make sure that my first topic, my first book was something that I really, really knew a lot about, something that felt natural and true. And so I had done already a lot of arts and culture reporting around the city. And so leaning into that, I always felt like, you know, Chicago never gets its due.

8:52 We are never, you know, always publicly seen as like this epicenter of culture, even though we are. And Black Chicago specifically, so many things have changed. transpired in Chicago and we're not getting the thanks and the glory for those things. And so I was like, what if I could write a book that touches on a lot of these things? I'm not going to be able to touch on everything, but maybe I could touch on a lot of these things and kind of include it in a book. What would that be like? And so that was kind of my contribution to that idea. Yeah. And I know that for Chicagoans, they hear this from outsiders, that Chicago is viewed as a dangerous, corrupt city.

9:37 I mean, this is like a narrative that has frustrated and angered many Chicagoans, specifically among Black and brown communities. Like, what is your take on the Chicago that you know today? Yeah, I mean... Growing up, you know, we never felt unsafe. We never felt as if Chicago was a place that we were trying to get away from, that the south side of Chicago was a place that I was trying to get away from. I was never trying to run away from my neighborhood. And so I think that I was never... I was never... I'm sure I was never...

10:20 kind of in doubt that there could be dangerous situations. I knew that. But overall, I felt safe. I felt like I was in a community. I knew people on my street. I played outside all the time. So I just think that It's a fallacy to, one, think that there are no communities in Chicago. When I say communities, I don't mean just the geographical boundaries, but the people that make up a community, the people and the institutions that those people might make.

11:03 the creativity that those people might produce and it's also a fallacy to think that like people don't want to be safe in their own neighborhoods you know like people want to be safe they want to be happy they want to be creative they want to you know have their kids be able to play outside like that's what everybody wants and so um yeah it's kind of like this thought that Chicago is this big you know we're in war we're in a war zone every day like um the just it just doesn't feel that way to me um And, you know, Chicago has been this cultural trailblazer for Black Americans.

11:46 And you shared about the Chicago Defender, a Black-owned publication that was instrumental in the Black migration movement from the South to Chicago. There's Ida B. Wells, who was key in documenting the lynchings that were happening as a journalist. We see it in blues music where blues greats like B.B. King, Muddy Waters, Buddy Guy have made Chicago a home for blues music. We see it in hip-hop with Kanye West, you know. The Kanye West of Chicago era. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I will always mourn that version. Chance the Rapper, Common, Loopy, Fiasco, House Music, and with transplants who have made Chicago an international powerhouse like Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey, and political figures like the Obamas, Mayor Harold Washington.

12:35 And it extends to poets, writers, activists, and you name it. But why do you think Chicago is such an important creative epicenter for Black people? Yeah, I think that Chicago is a place where you make stuff happen. If something isn't happening, you make it happen. If you want to be a president, you figure it out, right? You're a young lawyer and you... want to have political aspirations, you can get out there and you might fail a couple times like Obama did, but you're going to make it happen, right? You're going to learn the ropes and you're going to meet people and they're going to support you and you're going to make it happen.

13:15 If you are Oprah and you want to become a media powerhouse, here is the environment and the industries that can support that to happen. It's really hard if you are in a space where where there is no support for your dreams to kind of grow. So so many people might not be in a space, a physical space that even have the infrastructure for stuff to happen. So even I mean, especially in the past, you know, we're going back like decades and decades. chicago was physically like just structurally a place that had things you know like it like when you think about like the blues so if you have a place where you have all these people who have this in these industrial jobs right because we have factories um you know similar to like so a lot of our neighbors our cousins in detroit and other places like that right but if you have places where people can work then what can they do?

14:21 What does that mean? That means they have disposable income. So that means on the weekends, they trying to go out, right? Okay. So now I can go out. Now we're building an ecosystem of nightlife. So if we have an ecosystem of nightlife, then we can build a music industry for blues and within this ego you know so it's like so many so much of it is about chicago's infrastructure and then like on top of that chicago was already recording other music so if you want to record blues there was always ready an infrastructure for recording right so like chicago always has an infrastructure for almost anything that people have wanted to do or want to do now and that is generally a benefit like You can make some stuff shake here in a way that you can't always make it happen other places.

15:19 And before writing We Are the Coacher, what were you taught about the city of Chicago? And what was the narrative that you were taught about Chicago, like, you know, being in school and also as a young adult? So luckily, I was taught this narrative in school and as a young adult. I have been surprised that everybody wasn't. So like in school, I think too, I had really great teachers. My mom is a teacher too. My stepdad is a teacher. So I have like all these teachers around me. who teach at Chicago Public Schools. And I always grew up with like big black history month celebrations and like, you know, reading a lot of black history books and like all this.

16:09 So I thought that everybody knew a lot of the stuff. Some stuff, of course, I'm still learning, right? But like a lot of the basic stuff, I assume that everybody knew. And so I knew that narrative about Chicago, and I have been more shocked that people don't know all of these things. Not the details, of course, but the greater kind of idea of Chicago culture. And I think you also don't... sometimes realize how fortunate you are. Like I was telling, I was talking with somebody who actually interviewed in the book for the book, Nate Marshall, who's a poet.

16:51 And we were talking about how when you're growing up in Chicago, there is art everywhere. You know, you can go to the biggest and best museums. And not just in the country, but in the world. You literally might, you know, I remember we had like Nikki Giovanni come to our school. Like, you know, you know, Gwendolyn Brooks, like you have all of these people coming to visit your school, just your elementary school. And you are not thinking at the time. what this is but it's just it's just happening you have all these because these people live here they grew up here or even if they didn't live here they still like grew into themselves in young adulthood here and so they care about you they're it's all around you and so you think that that's normal it feels normal to you and then you go other places and you realize that no that's not normal like that you were really lucky to be surrounded by so much of it um and so I definitely had this narrative growing up and I think that makes me want to talk about it even more you know like hey look look at how amazing it is you know like you you can you can own this narrative like we can talk about the great stuff we don't have to let other people talk about the bad stuff so much Yeah, I think it's a very interesting observation you pointed out because,

18:24 you know, I grew up in the Western suburbs and in a fairly predominantly white working class community. And I barely knew or we were barely taught the history of Chicago. I mean, we weren't even taught. I mean, I'm 42 years old, so I wasn't even taught about Mayor Harold Washington. I wasn't taught about D.C. Jean-Baptiste DuSabo and there were so many important figureheads in Chicago history that even though I was only living maybe 30 minutes away it wasn't reaching to any of these communities so it feels like worlds apart I mean we joke about how folks in Naperville want to claim Chicago and it's like yeah there's a reason why there's a resistance to that because there's so much that's missing.

19:19 There's so much context of what does it mean to be in Chicago to, you know, to deal with the politics, to deal with the, or I don't want to say deal, but like to witness the innovation of the city and what it has contributed. And so I think that's a very interesting observation of how even the geographics even in the minor geographics can really alter people's knowledge of the city. One of the things I found, you know, reading your book is you talking about Jet Magazine's role in the civil rights movement and how did their contributions and how did their contributions in a way impact the movement?

20:04 And, you know, the first thing that you brought up was the Emmett Till photos that they published and in a way that just ignited And I'm curious about how significant Jet Magazine was in elevating the civil rights struggle. Yeah, I think that, you know, when you think about Jet, Jet was... In comparison to Ebony Magazine, also by Johnson Publishing, Jet was really the newsier of the magazine. Ebony was about Black life, right? Like, what does Black life look like?

20:46 And that was really important because you didn't necessarily get to see Black life, you know, in that mode. Like, Black people being able to do the same stuff that white folks were doing right like being on vacation being at the beach trap like all of these things so just having that was also really essential but jet was the newsy mac and so um We, of course, as we know, right, because I'm 40 as well, right? So we know pre-social media, pre-being able to like have news spread in that way. When Emmett Till was killed, his mother, Mamie, really wanted to show the world that Like, and so she agreed to have Jet not only publish the photos of Emmett's body, which had been, you know, it was in a horrible shape.

21:53 Right. Um, but also really cover the story. So they're covering the funeral. Then they go and, you know, they're like, which would be very dangerous to do. They're covering this trial and it's not easy and it's not safe for them to keep going down to Mississippi to cover this trial. And yet they're doing it for the greater good, for the story. And so, um, it's kind of launching this idea that, yes, again, this is why, right?

22:35 Like Black people are yelling at the top of our lungs that we are not safe, that we are not treated equally. And look at what happened to this boy, literally a child. And so many people have to see to believe. And Emmett's mother is, Mamie knew that. And so after his death, she continued to be, you know, civil rights speaker and teacher and other things too, but it was just this launch, right? I mean, today we see horrible stuff all the time. And I think unfortunately people have become desensitized to so much of the death and violence that we see, but especially at this time, it really kind of galvanized people to say, this is not okay.

23:31 We need to make a change. Since the century 25, in the past 25 years, how, or what have you observed in the evolution of Chicago and how it affects black leaders, creatives and community members? Yeah, I've really seen kind of a rebirth in the last 25 years. I think that for a while, a lot of people might argue that, you know, look at what we have. We don't have that anymore. Look, we used to do this, but we don't do this anymore. And I think that we kind of see a newer generation of people creatives in chicago really coming up and kind of making stuff their own and so i think that like the kids who were kids they they're grown now right like and you kind of see them like taking over and like making stuff their own, you know?

24:34 So like, I was at Shy Village's Kwanzaa celebration over Christmas break at Malcolm X. Like, you know, Malcolm X does a big Kwanzaa celebration and they always have. And Shy Village's day there, you know, like they kind of really leaned in to this kind of more youthful celebration. There was a lot more younger people. Every time they do a celebration for Kwanzaa, I think I first covered them when I was still working at WBEZ and that was maybe 2017, 2018.

25:14 And back then, right, I remember the angle of the story was like these young kids, I mean, you know, now it's like six, seven years later, right? You know, they're older. But it was like, look at these young people taking over Kwanzaa. Because for a while, right, people were like, oh, Kwanzaa's for, you know, that's for older people. Like, you know, like people who are like our parents' age. Like, you know, when it was super, super popular in the 90s. But now there's a resurgence, right? Like we're bringing it back. We're making it our own. And so I would say not even just people my age, because now I'm like, I'm 40. I'm not young anymore. The young, young people, you know, in music, in the arts and all these things are really like taking over stuff.

25:57 And I think that you really see it now. Just the young people kind of... taking over and deciding what creativity in Chicago is going to look like and us needing to just kind of support them and give them platforms and space to do that and how do you think social media has played a role in Chicago's current evolution and how it has affected um uh how it has affected the relationship building among Black communities, but also with solidarity with other Chicagoans. I'm very curious about social media's role and how it has, in a way, impacted the city of Chicago in terms of culture.

26:46 Yeah, I think it's interesting because social media has widened everybody's aperture so wide where you can be looking at other people in other cities and really comparing. So I do see a lot of people saying like, well, why don't we support each other like they do in LA? Or why don't we do this like they do in Atlanta? Or why don't we do this like they, you know? So you do see a lot of comparison on the more negative end. You might see some people that kind of do that. But I mean, on the greater end is that now you don't have to get out there and pass out flyers like we used to do when we wanted to have an event, right?

27:29 Now you can have an event and it can be all virtual promotion. You can use social media to really get people out. You get the influencers that you know to share it, right? And you can start something new if you find a void, right? So I've been seeing, especially now, more targeted events. So like... This is an event for artists. This is an event for musicians. This is an event for people in the restaurant industry. This is an event for, you know, like, so more specific things to really help people bring everything back in person, which I think that we all have kind of realized after, you know...

28:16 everything kind of shut down in 2020, I think now everybody's really realizing the importance of being together. And I think that people are trying to create more social spaces where we can really communicate with each other and fellowship. And I think that social media plays a great role in that. So when we're not trying to compare ourselves to other places, I think that social media can really just assist in Chicago growing to be the best Chicago it can be. How does Chicago compare to other cities in the U.S.? Like maybe from your own observations, say Atlanta, Oakland, New Orleans, Houston, Detroit, New York...

29:07 Well, unfortunately, that's a very biased question because Chicago is the best city in the world. So all those other cities cannot really compare. with Chicago. I like a lot of those cities that you mentioned. I love visiting them. I have good friends who live there and are from there. But I do think there's something about Chicago's work ethic that just can't be touched. Like we work, okay? Like Chicago works. We make stuff happen. And I think that like, You can't touch us in that area, right?

29:48 You cannot touch us. I was talking to some of my friends who live other places who are maybe not Bears fans because they're fans of whatever NFL teams are, you know. where they're from. And they were like, well, you know what? I got to admit, I really like when the Bears win because you all have the best and funniest Bears social media content. It's just been so funny. And I'm like, I know because we don't do it small, right? We won't work hard. We're not going to throw together some like boring social media memes. No. If we're going to make fun of the Packers, we're going to do it all the way, right?

30:31 We're going to go hard with everything, right? And so I think that's just still like, even if it's just in jokes and fun, you know, a lot of comedians have said that like Chicago is the funniest place or no, they've said it's the hardest place to perform because regular Chicagoans are so funny that we're hard to impress. And I think that's true. Oh, yeah. I mean, Second City, I mean, We Are Comedy is a comedy epicenter, too, where they get their skills. I also think it's kind of, I think it's also, I guess it's kind of worth noting how, uh, like going to a Chicago Bulls game, it's like you don't see the Hollywood. Like if you go to a Lakers game, you see like who's who's in the crowd or to a Knicks game.

31:15 I mean, besides Spike Lee, you always see these celebrities and, you know, sitting in their box or sitting in the front court side. And then for Chicago, like that's not our identity. We don't get attached to that. And we're not impressed. We're not impressed by that. And think about all the people in your family who are really funny. So like if you're not funnier than my cousin... My cousin just had me crying real tears of laughter. You better make me laugh. How come you can't make me cry real tears of laughter if my cousin could do it, right? But we do everything hard and well, and we're just hard workers.

31:56 And what was the most surprising discovery you learned about Chicago during your research of this book? Hmm. So... A lot of things I actually learned after, like, you know, it's really funny because you wrap up a book and then you're like, oh man, I didn't put that in there. Oh, I missed that. Oh, I would have put that in there if I had known, right? But I think that there are a lot of things that I maybe initially just didn't think about. So even, for example, me knowing about Ebony and Jet and Johnson Publishing Company, I really didn't know a lot about fashion fair before I started researching for the book.

32:43 I didn't really understand how fashion fair started. I knew that there had been a fashion fair kind of... fashion show actually, but I didn't know that like it has still went on for a long time. I didn't know that it kind of, that basically the reason why the makeup started was because Eunice Johnson saw the models backstage like using eyeshadow and stuff like mixing up their own foundation colors. And that's how she said, oh no, I'm going to make some makeup. that works for black skin. Like I'm gonna make some makeup because y'all are back here like making your own makeup shades.

33:25 Like I had no idea that. So like all the, so all these like things I'm like, oh, I did not have the right context for a lot of these details. I knew a lot of, you know, I knew Johnson Publishing Company building was fancy. I didn't know about this fancy test kitchen and all the food they were whipping up in there. You know, so it's like a lot of really kind of things that really helped me build a bigger picture. Like, I think I knew some things, but now I feel like I visualize it differently. Mm-hmm. In this day and age of Trump, what have you noticed about the way Black Chicagoans resist against the administration?

34:09 And I know that it's interesting because Chicago has been known to be a place of political activism. I mean, you see what happened with the 1968 riots. We've seen what happened with Emmett Till before that. You've seen the labor strikes. And also what happened with Laquan Madonna over a decade ago. So I'm curious to see what do you know so far about the way the political climate is moving in Chicago, especially with the way the Trump 2.0 administration has been locking down on the city since the ICE raids.

34:51 Well, I think especially in Chicago, we fight for what's right. And we fight for what we think is right, regardless of who the person is. So even when there is a politician that we might generally agree with, If we do not agree with them on a point, we're going to fight against it. We're going to push against it. And I think that that is how democracy is supposed to go. We are not supposed to agree and just go along and get along with elected officials. You are supposed to push back on them. You are supposed to push people to work for you and to help your community and your country be better.

35:36 And I think that Chicago is a great example of that because we have a long history of doing that, but especially actually since 2016. So, you know, those have been probably the more visible, you know, instances that people have seen in the news and i think it's just a reminder that it's not true that you can't do anything that if there's something that the government is doing that you don't agree with you do not have to just sit back and take it you can always fight back there's always something you can do you and your community can make change.

36:24 And I think that it's, I'm really proud of Chicago and to be from Chicago and to be from a place where we do that for each other, right? Where we fight for each other, for ourselves and for our kids' future. What do you like most about Chicago and what do you like least about Chicago? I like, if I just had to pick a tiny thing most about Chicago, the food. Because I think it's just whether I'm getting fast food, like Harold's type food, something that's more not the best for me, or if I'm doing fine dining.

37:13 Me and my friend, like I came home. When I came home for Thanksgiving, my friend took me to Lacerre and we had caviar and it was on this pasta and champagne. It was champagne and oysters. It was delicious. So whether we're doing the best, fine dining to like the local spot, everything is good. And then maybe the least is that... it takes a long time to get the streets plowed after it snowed. Sometimes it's better than others, right? But especially before, when I, before I moved, I had a lot of times where I would get like kind of stuck in the alley because my garage was in the alley.

38:00 And so I couldn't get out the alley. So I'd be like, I can't make it. I'm getting stuck. So that's it. Yeah, I would have to say the potholes, too. Oh, yeah, and then the potholes happen because of that, right? Because the water and the ice get into there, and then they expand, and then we get these potholes, and then they never, ever... cover them up, and you just drive and drive and drive. Like, how am I supposed to know it's a pothole there? It's not my fault. Exactly, exactly, you know? And also, I think when you're talking about on the subject of food, a lot of my friends who don't live in Chicago, they talk about the pizza.

38:41 I mean, I know that it's a source of tension. But, you know, it's kind of interesting because a lot of Chicagoans do not eat deep dish unless we have guests from out of town. And then we'll, you know, do that. I mean, I usually have to tell people the only time you'll ever see me eating deep dish, whether it's Pequots or Illuminati. Because it's a lot. It's a lot. And I like it fresh, right? So like, let's say even if I was craving it, it's just a lot. But I have, well, I will say if I work next to, a couple of times I work next to either Illuminati's or Giordano's, I have gotten their little personal baby pizzas for lunch.

39:26 And then I've done that because it's just like literally like this big, but it's so deep that it's perfect for lunch. So like the pieces like this big, But I don't like deep dish leftovers because it's just like not it's just not the same. It's perfect when it's fresh out the oven. You know, even if I warm it up in the oven perfect later, it's not the same. So why do I want a bunch of leftovers? Like even if I get a small. But yeah, like you said, but I have a best friend who's not from Chicago and she loves it. So I just I get it. I get it every time she's in town. Yeah, and also thin crust pizza is not to sleep on in Chicago. I have said that. And it's so much food. My friend from California, when she had thin crust, she said, this is thin crust?

40:10 Because it was so much stuff on it. it's you you're gonna be so full with the thin crust with the thin crust art exactly exactly because i know new york likes to flaunt that and like for us you know i mean look people can't sleep on that i mean i think people do sleep on that legitimately and um do you watch the bear i watched season one of the bear it's a plot It was a lot going on. And so not that I didn't want to keep watching the bear, but I was like, I need to be in the right mental space for it. Like, you know, the yelling, the people. I was like, I got to concentrate. I got to concentrate and see what's going on. And honestly, for the past year, at least, I have...

40:50 mostly avoided a lot of stories that I got to concentrate a lot on because I'm watching the news and it's just so much going on. Unless something's just really, really good, then I'll, you know, watch it. And then I just kind of forget about the, you know, so it's not that, you know, versus somebody's like, oh my gosh, you have to watch this thing that just came out. But yeah, I just haven't been concentrating on TV as much. But I did like that first season a whole lot. Yeah, and what do you see as the current innovation coming from Black Chicagoans? Ooh. I think...

41:32 And I've heard this from multiple people in multiple industries. I think more and more people are figuring out how to work together more. Like, how to do true collaboration. So, like, for example, right now, there are multiple Black women-owned bookstores in Chicago. Yes. But a couple years ago, there was only one. And then a couple years before that, there were zero. Mm-hmm. But now there are multiple in different neighborhoods and they all know each other and they all call each other. And I saw the other day that one of my friends who owns a store in Evanston, she was having a book event and she ran out of books and she called.

42:16 Another friend, Courtney, who owns Call and Respond. Yes. So Courtney from Call and Respond brought some books to L'Oreal, who owns Zora Place out at Evanston, right? So, like, there is a true collaboration between all these Black women-owned bookstores. They could... be competing. They could say, oh, who is that girl over there? But they're not. They're like, listen, we are in a tough industry, but we all want to do this great thing, which is bringing events and reading and education and community and fellowship and this kind of thing to our community.

42:57 So how can we get together? And they've all been helping each other. And I think that that is such a beautiful thing, but I've seen that Also with like coffee owners and so on, you know, so, and I've been seeing it more and more. And of course, like, I mean, like I know all the book folks because I wrote a book and then I ended up meeting them through a lot of book stuff. And so maybe I wouldn't have, but like, so maybe I don't know all the people in all of the different, the restaurant owners and the so-and-so, but it is so amazing. lovely to see and I think that what we do know is that when we think back to a lot of those kind of renaissance period times and what made a lot of us successful was that true collaboration.

43:42 I think that we are really starting to lean into it again and some beautiful stuff can really come from that. What do you see as the North Star for Chicago for the next several decades of this century? Ooh, I'm not sure. I think that's a really big question. I love it though. But I think that right now we are like facing a lot of battles and some of them are not internal. So I think that that's maybe why it's kind of hard because I think like a lot of places we have just so much going on and it's just like happening to everybody.

44:23 But I hope that from what I feel like we've seen the last year at least, is that we're really taking care of each other. And so I think that over the next couple decades, we're gonna lean more into community, you know, like truly, like, you know, like how many grocery drives and grocery gift card fundraisers did you see when SNAP, was cut off, right? So it's like really us leaning into helping each other and being responsible for our neighbors.

45:04 So even when the ICE stuff was at the height, people walking each other's children to school, like really, really being connected as a community and knowing that we can't just, I can't just worry about me and my kids. Mm-hmm. I can't worry just about me and my family. I have to worry about all of these kids are my kids. All of these adults are my sisters and brothers. All of these elders are my elders. You know, like we have to kind of get back to that thinking, but it feels like that is what we're doing. And so I think that that's going to be what happens. Yeah. And you know, one other question I thought about is like, as I was reading, as I was reading your book, I thought, was thinking a lot about the radio DJs, you know, and I did listen to 107.5.

45:54 It's been a while since I've listened to the radio. And it's very interesting to see how radio DJs, especially Black radio DJs, like elevated house music and hip hop and but also the personalities and the promotion of Chicago. But I think like these days, it feels like it's a dying art because of streaming and because people are now going on Spotify, Apple Music, or, you know, listening to podcasts. Not that there's a problem with, you know, having different platforms to use for your own convenience, but it also kind of takes away like the personality and the innovation that, that you're trying to introduce.

46:43 I wonder if you have any thoughts on that too. Yeah. I mean, I have been seeing, especially my students here, they have been getting more into physical media. They've been getting more into records and going to record stores. And the... School radio here, the university radio, is a big draw. Everybody wants to work for the radio. And so I think Gen Z might switch that up. But I think it's a little too soon to see. But... at least right now, this year, it's like this little push to go back to that nostalgia of mixing the songs physically instead of just letting a playlist play and having somebody actually curate something.

47:36 So I wonder if that might catch on. It might. I hope it does. But again, I mean, that's just what I see on this campus. I don't know if it's I can't make a big judgment for everybody, but there have been, and when I talk to them about their friends, they're like, yeah, you know, it's a big push to go back to physical media, right? Like, they're kind of like, they are nostalgic for that. And I think they're also nostalgic for a period that they don't really remember. But, yeah. Yeah, I think it's kind of wild, because this is why I've kept all my CDs, though, because... It's going to come into use one of these days. But what current projects are you working on for this year or anything that you're looking to spend more time on?

48:25 Yeah, so I've been thinking about my next book. I did some research over the summer in Chicago at the libraries there in the archives. I'm changing it up a little bit, so I'm trying to see where I'm going to land. But I don't want to say, it's not going to be just like this book, but I want it to still feel like it's in conversation with it, I guess. Mm-hmm. So I'm trying to like make sure it feels strong. This book felt like it had such a strong thesis of like, this is what I'm saying. And I just want to make sure the next one does. So what am I going to say about Black culture? It's going to be about Black culture. But what am I saying? I'm trying to nail it down. But yeah. Yeah, well, thank you so much for taking the time to be here and also for like, you know, sharing so much of your knowledge and experiences about the city that people, you know, that we need to give more love to.

49:19 I think Chicago has always been such a powerful epicenter for so many different cultures and also what Black culture contributed has been immense. And I think that is very important to, you know, bring that out. And, you know, like I was born and raised in the suburbs, but I've always felt like I've learned everything from Chicago. Like I went to school, both undergrad and graduate, lived in the city for several years, practically almost all my friends are in chicago and i feel like a lot of my ties are to the city the place that i've worked at and and there's something that's very special you know it's like we're we're very meat and potatoes in some ways because we're not about the glamour we're not about the the ritzy or the social climbing like there's like a real blue collar vibe to it and you know even the jacksons who that live in gary indiana they're only like maybe like across the pond from the city i mean this is where you see a lot of grit and greatness come into play so i think it's really important that we get to talk about the beautiful things about chicago and not have to talk about the constant deficit narratives that have been that we see in mainstream media so yeah that's already taken care of like that's like they got that yeah absolutely so thank you so much

50:52 for your time and you know best of luck to you in your journey thank you