2000's Favorite Tunes: The Chill-Out Chronicles (Pt. 1)

0:03 Hey, everyone. So welcome to the Band of Me Chronicles podcast. So this is what I call the chill out chronicles, the cafe break, because typically I usually do a lot of episodes that are very serious, that are very introspective, and that goes into the trauma. And I thought, well, I also want to introduce some of the joy that I have that I've been wanting to talk about. And part of it is on music. And I have been a big fan of the Pop Pantheon podcast and I've listened to like the Rolling Stones and I think the 90s, 60 songs of the 90s and 60 songs of the 2000s.

0:43 And I'm like thinking maybe I need to have my own top 25 favorite personal songs. And I want to preface it by saying there's no Taylor Swift, there's no Kanye West, no Justin Timberlake, no Nicki Minaj. So let's clear that out of the way. But none of these songs are in order. So please do not come after me. So this is the first of its kind. So we're going to go over the top 25 songs. And my friend Anjali Misra is volunteering herself to have a chat with me about it. Anjali, we've known each other for several years. I think it's like right before the pandemic. through storytelling.

1:24 And we actually are connected through our work with VAI, the Vietnamese Association of Illinois. And I learned that you were an entertainment reporter, I believe. And then you also had a podcast, which I had never known about. So I'm curious about if you could share a little bit more about your own background and about your own interest in today's topic. Yeah. Yeah, thank you so much, Randy, for having me. This is so exciting. I have been so pumped about this conversation for so long. Yeah, so yeah, just to introduce myself, I'm Anjali Misra. I'm a community organizer and nonprofit development professional.

2:08 I'm looking off screen because I have a script to be transparent. And yeah, I've been in Chicago since 2017. I have a background in radio and grassroots journalism and community theater. And, you know, Randy, as you mentioned, I had a podcast that ran very briefly for 10 episodes between 2023 and 2024. It was... a great experience, but capacity and varying circumstances prevented me from, you know, being able to continue it.

2:48 Um, but you know, uh, relevant to our conversation tonight, I was like so excited to like get back in the mix. And, you know, I, I've also like been an avid like music fan all of my life and like a pop culture nerd. And so, yeah, I, in a previous life, like co-hosted like pop culture trivia. And yeah, Yeah, I now find myself here feeling very nostalgic and like grateful for the opportunity to talk with you because I know you have like a ton of pop culture knowledge and like great opinions.

3:36 So yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, it's also kind of wild that we're 26 years into the century, so it was really disorienting. Like, gosh, has it been this long? And there was a joke that I made a meme where it was like, 20 years ago, I was still an adult, and I had a really hard time with that reality. I was like, dang, I was still an adult even 20 years ago. But yeah, I think that... Looking back on this journey, there were songs that I really struggled to pull out. And I think some of it might come into a form of a top 25 album because I feel like, okay, maybe this could work.

4:17 So I cannot tell you how many times I've been going in and pulling out those songs in like a matter of days. Like there would be like, oh, I got to pull this out. The next thing you know, I pull out five more. And so this was kind of like a very... tricky challenge for me, but one of the things that I thought about when I was doing it is the songs that really impacted me the most during that time, but also is it a song that really holds up well that I could actually still listen to in my playlist or when I'm out jogging or walking in this case. And I think that was something that I, you know, think about. Were there songs that were more popular than others?

4:57 Sure. But I'm also like, I kind of want to do some of the more unknown or at least the most underlooked songs by certain big artists, too. So, yeah. So the first one I brought up was Rock With You by Janet Jackson. Now... This came from the Discipline 2008 album, and this was a couple years after the Super Bowl debacle. And by that time, this was like her second single, I believe, right after Feedback. And I mean, those songs were just bangers, but it didn't chart very well. And You could see the consequences of the Super Bowl really affecting her legacy around that time.

5:43 And I think CBS was doing a boycott of her music because of Les Moonves. And, you know, Rock With You's happened to be one of my favorite Janet songs. I think that it is a song that she doesn't play very often in concert, but she did it recently. And I just remember screaming my head off when she just surprised me. surprised me with that song because it is such a groovy, chill, relaxing dance song. And I learned that the video was done in one take. So that was also even more amazing. She was already in her early 40s And I felt like she deserved more flowers than that.

6:26 But I'm curious about your own thoughts about Janet Jackson in this take. And I don't know if it's a song that you've heard, but if you have followed Janet's music in the past. Yeah, you know, just upon listening to this song, well, I'll go back and say that I grew up listening to Janet Jackson. My older sister, who's only four years older than me, is like a lifelong diehard Janet fan. And, you know, yeah, again, I grew up listening to her music, grew up listening to Michael's music. You know, my parents grew up listening to the Jackson 5.

7:06 And so, yeah, very familiar with like, yeah, just like, like, like seeing her on TV, seeing, hearing her music on the radio, hearing her music, like, played in like our extended family's, like relatives. households. Um, and so like this particular song, cause like I, I did a re-listen of all of the songs that you shared on the, on your, on your list. Um, I was like, oh, I'm not like super familiar with this one. Um, I love like most of her music. Um, but yeah, this one I wasn't as familiar with. It's certainly, you know, um, yeah.

7:50 powerful song a great song um but i i think the the thing that like resonates with me about janet jackson as like more broadly like a artist of the last century um is like her yeah like her cultural impact i will say um I think of her as a predecessor to Beyonce, for example, and a predecessor to a lot of Black women artists and performers and singers. And I don't know if you have seen the docu-series, that came out a couple years ago.

8:36 Yes, yes, I did. And I think that was very interesting to kind of see where her legacy was. And also, she has always struck me as someone who's been very private to the point where she doesn't seem to really put herself in the news. Outside of the Super Bowl debacle and outside what was going on with Michael Jackson, her brother, she kept a very low profile. And I think in some ways that kind of like... harmed her legacy, or at least like didn't help her legacy, I should say, because, you know, the first 20 years of her work was like rival to like Madonna, Mariah Carey, way more than Paula Abdul, like she was really transcendent.

9:21 And I mean, when I look at albums like Velvet Rope, the Janet album in 93, Rhythm Nation, all for you like these albums are timeless and I feel that yeah you mentioned she was a predecessor to like say a Beyonce I also think of SZA I think of Sierra I think of Rihanna I mean in terms of not only the choreography Britney Spears I forgot about that I mean like it's it's unbelievable about the cultural impact that she has and And when you look back in the music videos, you know, from the 86 to 2004, which is a good nearly 20 years, that was a hell of a gap, a hell of a run that she was having, you know.

10:03 And I hope that when it's all said and done, that she will get more of that respect, you know, continued respect, because it is really hard to think about who else could have done it other than the other artists or peers that were already doing that. agreed 100 yeah so the next one yeah zero by the yeah yeah yes so yeah i wasn't into the yeah yes until much later on i mean i knew about them in college back in the 2000s but i didn't really invest myself into it and it's funny because i had no idea that lead singer karen oh is also mixed korean um and And I remembered having this conversation with other people about the yayayas, and most people were very surprised that she's actually Korean.

10:56 And I think that it really came more to the surface since Michelle Zauner's crying in H Mart, you know, she's the front. uh the uh the front person for Japanese breakfast and yeah and you know the yeah yeah yeah is is quite an amazing band I think that you know they've had quite a career um they did they weren't making music well Karen O wasn't making music for a good decade until like two years ago And since then, they've been going on some big tours. And so I feel like there's more of a revival of that group. And when I think of that song, Zero, I think of this, like, feel good, explosive, this really crowd-pleasing rock anthem.

11:43 And, you know, when people think of the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, one of the biggest songs was Maps, which is a very beautiful ballad. And... um but for me it's zero i i turn it on i'm just like very energized i'm in my car and i turn it up but that's the feeling that i get when i listen to them and i saw them twice the past two years i saw um them last year at chicago theater when they were doing more of an acoustic set which is awesome um the first time i saw them was uh 2023 at the um I can't remember what pavilion it is. It's next to Soldier Field, and I do not like that venue at all.

12:24 Oh, is it Huntington Bank or whatever pavilion? Yes. Oh, no. Okay. Yeah. It is a chaotic mess. And there were so many white men that were so obnoxious that I actually left early because it was getting under my skin. And I'm like, okay, I need to leave because I'm already getting very aggravated. But I think that last show at the Chicago Theater was... redeemed it and it just made it better because at least i'm around people who are more serious fans rather than the drunkards that are like you know you know your typical entitlement and just got some free tickets so yeah but yeah what are your thoughts on the yayas and what do you know about their music and karen o's uh impact and legacy Yeah, yeah, oh my God, thank you so much for sharing just like your journey with their music.

13:16 It feels so familiar and endearing because I think, you know, you and I, there's a little bit of an age gap with us where I was like, I was in high school when the yeah, yeah, yeahs really blew up. So I was like a freshman or sophomore in high school And, um, I remember, um, yeah, like the indie and like indie grunge, indie sleaze garage rock era was like really taking off when I was in high school. Um, and like, I latched onto it as like, you know, like a, um, like a daughter of immigrant, like brown kid living in like a predominantly white suburb in the Midwest.

14:07 And so like, I fell in love with like, yeah, yeah, yeahs and the strokes and the shins and like TV on the radio and chat power and that whole, yeah, like genre of music. And like, you know, till this day, like that's my nostalgia music. Like that's my comfort music. And like, you know, I have them all on CD and like in some case in vinyl, I've held onto all of this, like, you know, like hard copy media, like even in the digital age and shit like that. And so, yeah, it's like very near to my heart, very dear to my heart. Um, yeah, I was like so lucky to see Yaya Yaz at Lala several, several years ago.

14:51 Um, and, um, yeah, I, the, the notes I made about your particular, um, entry in this list was that, um, i love this song zero as much as almost all of their songs and it's hard for me to pick a favorite it is it really is and thank you for sharing that and i also wonder like you know this is like this is like a very hipster era too like the indie bands during that time death cap for cutie um postal service um The Stokes you just mentioned, Arctic Monkeys.

15:32 But I remembered I was also into the record buying experience, going to a place like Reckless Records in Chicago. I know you didn't live in Chicago back then, but I used to go to those places and I would find some of the more hidden or below the surface kind of artists that... I got to experience the hipster side of things, like the realness of it as a college student. And I felt like that kind of gravitated away. I got gravitated away from pop music for a moment, you know? And I got more into, like, the alternative rock, indie rock. And the yeah, yeah, yeahs. You know, at that time, it didn't really come up for me enough. It didn't stick immediately.

16:14 But then, like, as the years went on, I was like, gosh, what did I miss out on? And I'm glad to be back on that wagon and staying on that wagon because she's remarkable. I think she's such a great visual artist and really just a ball of energy. So, yeah, let's go. Yeah, let's go to the next one. Number three would be Hung Up by Madonna. And, you know, for some of my friends, you know, a lot of people know me as a big as someone that talks about her. And Madonna has always been like a person who, despite a lot of her shortcomings, has been.

16:55 one of the artists I've always gravitated to growing up as a kid, and as someone who was very closeted, who didn't really understand the queer world, and And really didn't see myself in any other platforms but her. I thought about some of her dancers who are Black and brown. And there's one Asian person named Kevin Stay who I had on my podcast several years ago. And I was so gravitated towards the Bond Ambition tour, specifically the Truth or Dare documentary, which is really one of my favorite documentaries because... I think I go back to that documentary as a 12-year-old and how ballsy she was, you know, and how bold she was.

17:44 I mean, my favorite scene was when she... was told by the cops that she's not allowed, in Toronto of all places, that she was not allowed to do the Like a Virgin performance where she simulated masturbation on a bed. And she basically told her manager to tell the police that I'm not changing my show. You know, there's nothing to talk about. I'm not changing my show. And I thought about... how that moment had always been a catalyst for me to stand up for myself, but to also really believe in your vision, even though there may be consequences. And I felt like she was a person who was very willing to take a lot of creative risk for all her faults.

18:28 It doesn't always work, but in some cases when it lands, it really landed. And in 2005, hung up, by Madonna was, to me, was such a refreshing song because it came right after the 2003 American Life album, which didn't hit very well. It is a great album, in my opinion, but But this brought her more to the dance circle, which a lot of her queer male fans really wanted her to stay in. And boy, she delivered. And when she did hung up, yeah, this was a sample from ABBA's Gimme Gimme Gimme.

19:09 And ABBA, from what I've heard, is notoriously fickle about letting anyone sample their music. And she was an exception. She was given the green light and I think from what I remembered, she fell off a horse like a couple weeks prior to filming that video, that iconic video. And you can kind of see her holding her left hand a little bit in one part where she was walking. And I mean, she... she performed like a pro that she was. I mean, the video is timeless. I love it towards the end where she was like literally on the, doing the dance, dance revolution and doing that movement and doing that hard choreography.

19:54 I'm like, wow, she was about to turn 50. And this was during a time when she was starting to break away from Guy Ritchie. She was starting to break away from the British Madonna to more of like, okay, I'm going to go back to being sexy and being very bold again. And I mean, that album was great. The tour that followed was even better. I think for a lot of hardcore fans, the Confessions tour is still one of the best moments Madonna tours probably in most of her career because it was... She was an athlete. She was really...

20:36 performing some of the best songs from that album, but she reworked some of the older hits. And it is remarkable. I mean, I go back to that. I saw that tour twice, and it was such a visual treat for me. But Hung Up, when I listen to it, it's like, wow, you know, this video of the song still holds up very well 20 years later. And I also have to say this was probably like the last good Madonna album she has released because after that, it's been really hard to listen to. And she is supposedly supposedly working on the Confessions 2 album. So I hope it's going to be OK.

21:16 I hope it's going to be good. But I mean, her last couple of releases have not. done it for a lot of people so but this to me was like the last but what was your thoughts about Madonna growing up and what did you remember about her because I know like I'm a little bit more on the older side but you know but people that came after me like Madonna was kind of like an afterthought to a lot of younger generations yeah you know I grew up with the like late 80s early 90s era of madonna and so like you know the like a prayer album came out in 89 when when i was born and so um but like you know because of radio play and music circulation and pop culture um in the early 90s um like I grew up hearing that album.

22:16 And so, like, my earliest, like, memories are of hearing, like, the Madonna Like a Prayer album and, like, Michael Jackson's Thriller album and, like, Nirvana. So I remember, like, yeah, it's very, like, embedded in my memory of hearing. And, like, till this day, Like a Prayer is one of my favorite Madonna songs. And then, like, even later, I think she did... So she contributed to a soundtrack for a film with Brendan Fraser with honors. Oh, yes. I remember. Wow.

22:56 I remember. Wow. That's an underappreciated hit. People forget about that one. Yeah. And for some reason, like, that became very, like, imprinted in my memory of, like... oh like what an iconic madonna song but like when i when i bring it up with people they're like i don't know that song so it's so funny um and i will say i totally 100 agree with you that like um post um post guy richie i would say yeah yeah like yeah like um She, yeah, like, her renaissance felt very powerful.

23:40 But then, what was the album you named that, like, was, like, her last, like, good album? Confessions on the Dance Force. 100% agree. 100% agree. Yeah, because after that, it got a little... I don't know. She's worked with Timberlake. She worked with Timberlake and Timberland, which was already kind of like, yeah. Yeah. Because I think what I realized is that she was playing a backseat. Because for a while, she was a person that didn't do many collaborations. It was always her. And then when she started doing collaborations with Timberlake, Timberland, then with Nicki Minaj and I'm trying to remember Avicii.

24:28 It never felt cohesive. She was working with so many different trend artists and trend producers. It felt like she was losing her identity pretty quickly. Yeah, I agree. And I wonder if part of it is because at a certain point in, when you get to a certain level of celebrity, you almost like lose control of like that identity where you're like, I, I'm just like reflecting on like interviews I've seen and like, like documentaries and things like that. Or like even memoirs I've read of like pop stars where it's like, you get to a certain point of celebrity where you're like, you know, my real self is so separate from my celebrity self.

25:20 And so my celebrity self belongs to someone else or like it belongs to the industry or it belongs to this company or this group of people who are producers and things like that. And so I wonder if that's what happened with Madonna, quite frankly. yeah and i think that as she got older it was i mean the industry is very ageist towards women and yeah exactly and and i think it was very hard for her when she was not reaching the number one hits or she was not getting played on radio or people were not taking her seriously And I felt that she was trying so hard to court the younger audiences that she alienated a lot of older audiences who were really with her and like, why are you pivoting towards it?

26:04 But I would say that she's been starting to come back more into her roots because... she did her celebration tour like two years ago and she did a lot of her hits because the last couple of tours she was doing, she were only doing just a couple of hits, but focused on the new album, which was to everyone's chagrin. It's like, okay, but... you're not getting any hits out of those new albums. No one's really listening to it. And I've been in shows where people would sit down and be like, yeah, this is, I don't connect with this. And they were much older, too. They were in their 50s. And it was hard for people to leave that show and be like, yeah, I think she still got it, but I wish she had performed some of the other hits that she has because her catalog is humongous.

26:53 And But Celebration Tour, she kind of brought a lot of it back. So I'm glad that she's starting to focus on her legacy. And I feel like that's where she needs to be. Because as a person that's pushing 70 years old, I really hope that that is the lane she stays on. Because I feel like, you know, spending all these years courting young audiences in that kind of way, competing with the Lady Gagas and the Rihannas of the world is not... fruitful it i think that it has to be a reminder of the impact that she laid the groundwork for so yeah but yeah so the next one um Cut to the Feeling by Carly Rae Jepsen. You know, I would not put Call Me Maybe.

27:36 I get very annoyed as a gay man that people will say, oh, Carly Rae Jepsen, didn't she do Call Me Maybe? It's like, yes, but she's got better songs than that. Please do not reduce it to that one song. And But, you know, she has amassed a huge cult following after that song. Like, even though she may not have carried the chart-topping hits like a Taylor Swift, which I do blame that on Scooter Braun, her manager, too. But, you know, she really stayed to her dance and to her songwriting roots. And, my God, she keeps delivering hits, like, really gems after gems. And it's...

28:17 it has a chokehold. And when I think of cut to the feeling, this came like around, I believe it was 2017 when it was released as part of the emotion B side, which is wild because the emotion album was already like a banger. It's a no skip album. And it was recorded for the soundtrack to an animation movie leap. And God, every time I hear that song, it's just so refreshing. And I heard her perform that song when I started the Metro, the Lollapalooza after party. And it was such a great show. I think she gave you two hours of performing and she got a lot of like old, like B-side songs too that she hadn't performed live.

29:00 And it was such a treat. I mean, she's very likable on stage. I think that she has produced so many songs. I think she would write like 100 songs per album, which is wild to me. So yeah, Carly Rae does not seem to get the love. on a mainstream level outside of our own core fan base. But I'm curious about your own thoughts about Curly Rae Jepsen. Were you also, cause I know as a queer person, were you like, were you gravitated towards your music? Yeah. Yeah. No, I was so happy that you included her in your, in your list because agreed 100% underrated. Yeah.

29:45 deserves her flowers, has not gotten her flowers in the way that... I will say, like, in the very, like, queer music scene, she is very loved and lauded, as we both know. She's kind of like our Kylie Minogue in a way, too. Yeah! Yeah! But again, she hasn't gotten that sort of, like, mainstream above ground whatever you know beyond that fucking sorry but like beyond the uh yes one hit wonder like call me maybe um and to a certain extent i think that like you know uh to her her team's credit like They have tried to, like, market her beyond that and be like, wait, she's more.

30:41 She's so talented. But, you know, the industry is what it is. She's competing against a lot of these other industry sort of pop ingenues. And... Everyone's got their like little niche. Right. And so she I my reading of her marketing is that she doesn't quite fit the niche that like certain other pop icons do, which is unfortunate because, again, agree with you.

31:21 So talented. incredible lyricist incredible singer um catchy songs too it's like yeah like hello it's like this should be a number one hit because it's a banger it's catch it catches on like glue and 100 but i also think that she doesn't seem interested in the the fanfare the the fame like courting the fame of it outside of it. I mean, which is great. I mean, which is fine. I mean, you know, she's now married and has a child, became a mom. She's in it for the music. Yeah. And yeah. And I think that, and her fans are going to stand by her very strong, like me and like you. Yeah. We're holding on pretty tight with her.

32:02 So yeah. Much love to Carly Rae. And next one is one of my favorite songs. I mean, my friend Jung and I like talk about the song at Nauseam, but Electric Fuel by MGMT. Yeah. And this was like around 2007, 2008. And I remember hearing that song for the first time when I was at Lollapalooza in 2008. It was during the daytime. And I remember just walking past and I'm like, wow, everyone's kind of swaying, you know? And it was very... like people were in a trance and and when election field came out i was like wow this is this is such a dope record i mean i could listen to it ad nauseum and one of my favorite moments about that song was kid cuddy coming up on stage and dancing just being himself and i'm like yeah go kid And so, what were your thoughts about MGMT?

32:58 Because at that time, they were really emerging as an indie band that was already starting to mainstream the way like the Black Keys were, you know, and a few other bands similar to their peers. Yeah. I am so excited to share that when I read your notes, I was like, Randy, we were at the same show. Oh, get out of here. That's so great. Yeah. So like, I like feel like this has happened to me a couple of times where like, I tell someone where I'm like, oh, I was at this show and I saw this band live and they're like, I was there too. What the hell? And so, yeah, I was absolutely 2008 Lollapalooza.

33:42 MGMT. Mm-hmm. So that was, and I saw Kid Cudi, like, come on stage. Yeah, it was, like, very, very cool. And I had, like, just heard about this band. Obviously, they would, like, blew up, like, very quickly. And it was so cool. I, yeah, the vibes are really cool. Really cool at that show. I don't know what your memories are beyond, like, yeah, being like, oh, it was, like, super, like, excited and interested in this band, but I was just, like, um, I remember, like, so many other bands played that night, and, like, the accumulated effect of, like, because, like, I think NGMT played, and then also, um, oh God, like Arcade Fire and like all of these other things.

34:34 And then like at the end of the night, everyone was like singing through the streets of like downtown Chicago on their way to the train and shit. Were you there for Rage Against the Machine that second night? Because that was wild. I was there. I was there for that when I was with a friend and she was terrified. It was getting so dangerous. Yeah, I mean, I left because it was, look at me, I'm little. It was chaotic. I mean, I was about to be up in the front earlier that day and I was like, no, I don't think I need to be up in the front. And then I'm glad because that show had to stop a couple of times because people were getting crushed. Yeah. Yeah, Zach kept having to be like, y'all stop. Like, yeah. Yeah, I remember Radiohead for the first night.

35:16 I mean, I was a big Radiohead fan. I saw Radiohead too. I have many feelings now. Yeah, like, but back then I was a huge Radiohead fan. And I mean... yeah that was a memorable night i saw i chose to see nine inch nails over kanye was which i was like at that time i was regretting because i was a big con i was into my big kanye era because i mean it came i think it was his third album the graduation album and then in hindsight um i don't feel so bad after all um yeah but yeah it's so funny we're at the same show that's wild i had no idea I had no idea.

35:57 I mean, it was such a wild experience, you know? I mean, it's one of the very few festivals I've ever done because I was not... Because the Rage Against the Machine experience left me pretty traumatized. Sorry, that was fireworks. Oh, no, no. It left me... No, actually, with Rage Against the Machine, like... um it left me traumatized because i was so uncomfortable with crowds after that like i don't like the unpredictably unpredictability of crowds especially outdoors in festivals so i think that had made me pull back on it you know ever since and i'll never forget when and rage against the machine or zach basically I had my Obama shirt at that time. Everyone was all happy about Obama running for president.

36:41 And there were rumors about him making an appearance at Lollapalooza. There were a lot of rumors circling around. And then Zach got on a mic saying, hey, Brother Obama, if you're going to do what you say you're going to do, and if you don't do what you say you're going to do, you're going to have a lot of angry people at your doorsteps. And I remember a lot of us were like, our mouths dropped open. Like, holy crap. Yeah. You know, it was so shocking. I don't remember that. Wow. I remember that. And I was like, I was like, my mouth dropped open. I'm like, I'm kind of hiding my Obama shirt at the time. So I was like, okay, well, this is awkward. But I think, but it tells you, like, I know I'm going off a tangent here, but like, you know, I mean, I invited it.

37:22 Yeah. But the Rage Against the Machine, I mean, it was such a, um, transformative moment. We'll have to have a follow-up Lollapalooza conversation. Oh, we will. So the next one. Yes. Toxic by Britney Spears. Now, you know, I can't, like, not have a list without Britney, especially that particular song. I think this is one of her most enduring hits. I mean, it's a song that you can listen to, you know, i remember listening to it at the club and um and how fun it was to like dance to a song like this and and then i could like hear it anywhere and i can never get tired of it it feels very current um the video was very iconic i mean you know her being naked in those uh in in these diamonds that were like uh planted on her and then her being the flight attendant.

38:22 I mean, this was Britney's coming out. Well, I would say that this was her continued transformation from the teenage girl to, you know, when we saw I'm a Slave for You, she was already starting to really... grow into her adulthood, the presentation of it. And then Toxic was kind of like the icing on the cake. Okay, like the Baby One More Time, the Oops I Did Again era, that's completely done with. I'm looking to march forward. And I felt that that was very much a statement song. Unfortunately, the last... 15 or so, like close to 20 years, if we have to be very honest, it hasn't been kind to Britney.

39:08 And, you know, since her conservatorship ended, allegedly, however it looks right now, it's hard to see how Brittany has become a shadow or a shell of herself because of the damage the conservatorship did to her. I mean, you've got family members, you've got her team, doctors, people that really took advantage of her to the point where She can't trust anyone. And she would talk about how she can never make music again or, you know, do the things that she loves. And it just breaks my heart because when I think of a song like Toxic, God, I can only think about the creativity that comes...

39:51 with it, like it led to Blackout, the Blackout album, which to a lot of people, this is like the gold, the gold standard of a Britney album, if there ever was one. But for me, In The Zone album was, it's just as good. And I think it's kind of like slightly better in my opinion. This is an album I listen to more than Blackout. And it's hard for me to say that because I love Blackout. But it's like, it's like when you see the conservatorship and how it affected the quality of your music, um like working with Dr. Luke um you know working with you know producers that she wasn't really into doing you know and it just felt like you could see it in her touring you could see it in the way she was giving herself like like just really not enthused like it was a chore to her and she was forced to perform and record music that just wasn't in her element but yeah what would was Britney Spears a person that you were growing up I mean because I wonder what it was like for you growing up when Britney Spears was kind of like oh you know it was a divisive issue you know at least in high school it was very divisive like you know it's either like oh yeah um there were girls that hated Britney Spears you know and there were men that had this massage or boys that had this misogynistic view of britney spears you know so yeah i wonder about your thoughts on britney spears you know especially around that particular era yeah damn you know um i had a britney spears

41:22 poster on my bedroom wall from the time i was eight years old so loved her All of my life, you know, like, you know, I'm 37. Like I am. Yeah. Eight years old. Hit me, beat me one more time. Came out when I was in third grade and we loved her because, you know, Well, I'll fast forward to reading her memoir a couple of years ago and it taking me back to being a little girl and being like, because she reflects on that time in her life.

42:05 She was 16 and she, you know, her parents like put her in the whatever child mall, mall singer circuit in Louisiana. And she had a natural talent. She was naturally, like, a great singer. Obviously, she got some training, but, like, a great dancer. She had a love for performing. But she also, like, really loved basketball. And so when it came time for them to make the music video for Hit Me Baby One More Time, she was like, oh, I want to incorporate my love for basketball. And...

42:47 And I'm like literally like whatever recounting what I read in her memoir. But she was like insisted that like I want to show my basketball skills. And they're like, OK, like the producers were like, OK, like that's not really what this song or this music video is about, but we'll do it. And then obviously, as we know, that like that was like her debut to the world. and becoming what we now know as like this global phenomenon and so I just think about like seeing that as a little girl and being like oh like you can be anything like you can be sporty you can be a tomboy you can be a singer you can be a dancer and like that's what like led me to be like oh I want to put her poster on my wall and there was a charm there was a like ability about her I mean she got that million dollar smile I mean it was very natural and it felt like she had the Southern charm and, and you could tell like from what people have said that she's incredibly very nice.

43:48 Like, you know, she was very polite and it was something that we have to look back on when you see the Diane Sawyer interview, when you see some of the horrible interviews where she had to like answer like very invasive questions and somehow, you know, you know, being media trained, like she had to give manufactured answers and it's like, man, she had never been able to grow up. And the minute that she was trying to discover herself, and unfortunately, it was a very chaotic time in her life. And I just, I really mourn the old Britney that really had that charm, that had that sparkle in her eyes.

44:32 And that's hard to watch. And sometimes I wonder... Like, I don't need her to make more music or tour. Like, I just want her to feel like she's being appreciated and people are looking after her. And I don't see that and it kills me. And so it's like, I don't know what's going to happen. yeah you know but i mean her legacy is like is something that is unquestionable like i mean you know she may not have the best vocal voice but boy she knew how to have presence i mean she had confidence in her dance moves she's got the again the charm um the wardrobe is very memorable the music videos are like all iconic and it's like And it's all part of the package that she, that a lot of other artists since then have not been able to go anywhere near that.

45:25 Like people talk about Tate McRae being like a Britney Spears second coming. And I'm like, I don't see, I don't see that. Like, I don't want to sound like I'm a Gen Z hater. Yeah. I just don't see that, you know, and I don't see a lot of artists with that kind of commitment and that kind of like power that she held. So, you know, yeah. Yeah. Toxic, definitely a quintessential Britney Spears song if there ever was one. 100%. Next one is the late Amy Winehouse. Wow. I mean, Back to Black is probably going to be my top 25 albums because they're such a no-skip album to me.

46:06 I had to choose which one it is. I was... It came down to probably like Valerie, the... the mark ronson mix um and then um um you know i'm no good is one of my favorite songs too but tears dry on their own um i go back to that song plenty of times still do um and it takes from the marvin gay and timmy terrell uh ain't no mountain high enough it has an interpolation that it's very recognizable Amy Winehouse in their second album, The Back to Black, was kind of like a take on the 60s girl groups.

46:48 And, you know, the Ronettes, you know, Ron Spector, you know, the evil Ron Spector, Phil Spector, the evil Phil Spector. But the Ronettes and, you know, the Supremes, I mean, the more of the classic era. And I mean, I mean, when that album came out, I mean, And not long after that, she was a tabloid fixture. I mean, she was in a very toxic relationship with her husband, a Blake civil fielder. There was substance abuse issues, codependency. She was supposed to do like an extended tour in the U.S., which never happened.

47:30 I think she was allowed. She was allowed in 2007 and and didn't really make any appearance in the U.S. because, you know, when she was dealing with her trials and tribulation like her visa got revoked and she couldn't perform at the Grammy so she had to perform telecasts which she won some of the most major awards. And, you know, to be honest with you, that was incredibly iconic, the way she won that Grammy, the shocked look on her face. And Tony Bennett, like, you know, her role model presenting that award to her via telecast. And, you know, like when I think of Tears Dry on their own, I mean, this music video was filmed in L.A.

48:11 and Hollywood. and it's at this motel um i can't remember the name of it i was looking it up and it's still in existence um but it is a very sad it's a very sad album it's also a very sad song i mean this is the album is about the isolation and this loneliness she was feeling from you know being with blake and and and And it was a heartbreak album, you know, and you could feel the pain in her songs. And unfortunately, this would be the last album. And this was released in 2006. And she would pass away in 2011 and not really having a follow up album after that, which is very sad.

48:56 But yeah, this is a yeah. Do you have any Amy Winehouse memories? Anything that comes up about that particular era? Yeah, definitely. I mean, also was like a huge fan when she came on the scene. I was in undergrad at the time and just like watching things unfold so rapidly around like her celebrity and like, you know, folks trying to navigate like, her or i i guess not navigate but like um come to terms with her talent and her uh marketability that was tough to watch um i think that like i again like came up in an era of like, this was like early virality or like Facebook had just become a thing and like YouTube, just long and so you know and like the only way you could like watch music videos or the only way you could like watch celebrity interviews at the time was like if you if you had cable number one and number two if you had the ability to watch tv at a certain time when that show was airing like on mtb

50:30 um or whatever and so and otherwise you would the way the only way you could experience like music was to go to the record store or download it illegally on Napster or you know and so like that was my experience of like that era of music like yeah and the radio and the radio and so if you didn't have a radio like in your dorm room like because I was in college at the time like then you were like I didn't really know what was going on in the music world. And so, yeah, like I would hear her on the radio. I would like see posters for her albums, like, you know, at the record store.

51:11 And then, you know, I would then once like Facebook and YouTube launched would see these videos of her like crashing out and like paparazzi hoarding her and her partners and you know, out in the streets and shit. And it was like very reminiscent of like the shit I saw on the news from like Princess Diana when I was like a child. And so I was just like, oh, history is repeating itself. This like cult of celebrity is like so fucked up. And like even like as early as it was in like that era of media, I was like very clearly clocking.

51:54 Mm-hmm. this is not gonna pan out well. And then it didn't. And it was so heartbreaking because yeah, so just losing a talent like that. I think about everything like she could have produced in the years. Yeah. I know it's like she only gave us two albums and she came around the time of Adele, Duffy, Lily Allen. I mean, so this was the wave of British soul singers that were just starting to take emergence and Amy Winehouse was the ringleader of all of that. And it is very heartbreaking. I did see the 2015 documentary, which is very hard to watch at times.

52:35 Also very infuriating with her dad who exploited her. And you could see some clips where he, like when she was on vacation, like the paparazzis came. So it's like as if he was kind of inviting them into her life when she really needed to be away from the noise. Yeah. you know and so I saw the movie that was done on her like the biopic like two years ago and I was like this was not good at all I mean it was very messy and I remember it getting like panned by critics it did I mean I wanted to support the movie but it's like again it just I just feel like could there be a revisit sure but I think the 2015 documentary stands really strong about her own legacy but her own um trials and tribulation that she had to experience outside of her own music which is you know just incredibly like on the level of like princess diana like the chaos of you know being in london and having to deal with you know dealing with substance abuse and dealing with um the demands of fame and the entitlement that you know people uh want from her and in real time so Yeah.

53:55 Next song. This is like probably one of the few songs, if not probably like in the more recent era. This tells you how, you know, I don't want to say the word stuck, that a lot of the earlier 2000 songs still has a chokehold on me. But Espresso by Sabrina Carpenter. You know, this is one of the more recent songs from the post 2020 lockdown era that I am like, yeah, this is like one of the songs that I have here. It's a catchy, perfect song for 2024. Summer hit. Sabrina had been making music for several years, but really broke through with this hit, along with Chaperone.

54:35 I mean, her and Chaperone were, like, kind of, like, hidden, and next thing you know, they just exploded overnight. And kind of, like, unprecedented for that moment. And I believe that she would open up for Taylor Swift for the Ares tour in the nearly past two years. She has amassed a number of hit songs. She's a, a big headliner these days. And yeah, so I think that when I look at her and Chaperone, Overnight Success, it's like Gen Z's answer to, or Gen Z's like, okay, this is like our Amy Winehouse or Britney Spears, not in a bad way, but like in terms of musical legacy, you know, or longevity.

55:21 So I'm curious about your thoughts about Sabrina Carpenter. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I... Um... feel a little bit like removed from this like new generation, like you said, of like pop icons or like the new generation of pop. I certainly like am aware of their music. I find their music like very good and like catchy and interesting. And at the same time, I'm like, I don't know if skeptical is the word but like I'm very cautious because again everything we've talked about up until this point tonight about like the cult of celebrity and the exploitation and the co-opting and the dangers inherent in the industry feel very like present even in like these newer um performers um I think about how like Sabrina Carpenter I think was she like a Disney kid or a Nickelodeon kid I can't remember I didn't go that deep I feel like she was a Nickelodeon but I could be very wrong um that's gonna be requiring a fact check here but like no problem but yeah I mean she was already like you know doing music for like a good decade until she was

56:54 in 2024 yeah yeah so i know that she's but she's been in the industry and she was a child star and so i i don't know i'm also like very traumatized by watching the nickelodeon documentary and so and like um i know that what's her name um Ariana Grande she's featured in the documentary but she didn't participate in the documentary but like obviously they use like footage from like the shows that she was on on Nickelodeon to like as evidence of like crossing a line and like you know how are we depicting children and like children actors and working working children um all of that feels very very upsetting to me personally um and so i unfortunately can't divorce my reaction to people like sabrina carpenter from this feeling of like I want to honor you as an artist and like, you're an adult woman at this point.

58:12 And like, you're clearly talented. Like I watched her on the Grammys. Her Grammy performance was like so great in 2025. You know, she's hosted and been on SNL a couple of times. I watch SNL and like feeling very much like, Oh yeah. Like you're, you're so talented. You're, you're a talented artist. But then in the back of my mind, I'm always like, At what cost? At what cost are you a talented artist? Because I hope you're getting support. I hope you're not being exploited. I hope you're not I don't know. Like it feels gross because I can't help but think of all the history of the industry that has created.

58:57 And you see the Taylor Swift's of the world too. It's like, is this a good thing to be attached to? And it feels like the Mean Girls Club, you know? So it's like, I don't know where to begin. Like I haven't really attached myself to Sabrina's music. um like really that much because i just feel like i feel like it doesn't it doesn't stick enough for me to be like oh yeah i really want to see sabrina on at the united center or soldier field you know like so i didn't i did not have that kind of like desire but i'm like but with this song i was like yeah this this was a no-brainer to me like i played the hell out of that song it's a great song yes and uh the next one So I could have done Can't Get You Out Of My Head by Kylie Minogue, but I decided I'm just going to be devil's advocate and go with Love At First Sight, the rough remix, which I have to say by hair, I love that song just a tiny bit more than Can't Get You Out Of My Head.

59:56 But it was a very interesting time because when she had already been established as a successful European-Australian pop star for a number of years, she had debuted in America with the cover of the Locomotion in 1988. And from America, she had disappeared for over a decade until 2002, 2001, or early 2002 when her Fever album came out. And I remember when I was at the College of DuPage, I was in community college in my freshman year. and i remember the video can't get you out of my head came out and i was like wow this video is so addicting and i i literally can't get enough of that song i mean i mean i could still play that song and you know be okay with it like i i i i love it i mean i've never been a big kylie minogue fan like a lot of her music doesn't really do it for me i just feel like it's a little too moody and it feels very sleepy.

1:01:03 For me, it does. I mean, I know a lot of gay men would come after me if I diss on Colleen Minogue. I did say that Padam Padam was one of those songs that I cannot stand. I don't understand. I'm sorry, but I don't like that song. I don't care for it. It doesn't do it. You know, I respect your opinion. I'm sorry. Yeah, but... I chose off at first sight because it was such... Again, it's a very joyful song. I mean, I love the music video to it. And, you know, it is a very good feel-good club banger. But it's interesting because right after that song, she... didn't really spend any, didn't really pay much attention to the US market.

1:01:45 And she was very open about how she felt really happy about the reception she gets from the European and Australian markets. But the US market was a market that she didn't feel like it's a priority for her. You know, and because of the travel, you know, and maybe having to live in the U.S. full time because, you know, to promote is a gargantuan task. And but despite that, like, you know, she has a cult following kind of similar to the way Carly Rae Jepsen has in the U.S., you know like if she performs in chicago you know at the united center it's gonna fill up yeah madison square garden it's gonna fill up if she does a residency which i believe she did in vegas you know people will flock to that um um but in europe and australia i mean she was probably neck and neck with madonna you know as far as like her influence but yeah what were your thoughts about kylie minogue um during that time Yeah, no, I, seeing that you chose this particular Kylie Minogue song, Love at First Sight, I was like, 100%, no notes.

1:03:02 She has, she produces music for a very specific group. genre and a very specific audience whether she knows it or not um and so and i agree with you and that's fine you know like to each their own um i obviously like loved can't get you out of my head um i i love this this track love at first sight um uh and fine with pa-dum-pa-dum like you know um and so there's no like whatever like attachment to that because I feel like I'm older now and I'm like I don't club I don't go out so that's fine um but yeah um I think that yeah it's more of a feeling of nostalgia of like there was a time when folks were maybe I don't know.

1:04:15 And maybe it's a little bit political too, right? I mean, it came after 9-11 too. So it's like the music and mood after 9-11 felt very dark and felt very, like, it didn't feel like we were given permission to celebrate. I mean, we were also going to war with Afghanistan. So this was already kind of like a very turbulent time, especially for me as a college student. It just felt like this darkening period. And there were a few songs that were very uplifting. And I think Kylie Minogue was like, boy, she was a breath of fresh air to me. As a gay man, I was like, wow, this is such... an undeniable banger i mean you know it's like actually um interesting enough there's a person named kathy dennis who wrote this song kathy dennis did she was a two-hit wonder she did the song uh touch me which is a 1991 song i love love love that song she wrote that song and she wrote um britney spears toxic you know so you think about the sister relationship to those songs and i'm like wow this is this really makes a lot of sense i had no idea wow yeah a little fun fact there um Next one, similar to Cody Ray Jepsen, Foster the People, and it's not Pumped Up Kicks.

1:05:33 Again, people will say, well, is that the group that did Pumped Up Kicks? I'm like, it's not even their best song. In fact, I probably get tired of that song. pretty quickly you know but helena beat helena beat is such an undeniably um mesmerizing like aggressive song and i it is such a charged up there's a lot charged up energy to the song and you know mark foster who fronts that band i mean you know i never knew what he was saying in those lyrics because it's very because he was singing it's such a high falsetto and i think goes um um i'm gonna mess it up i'm having a brain fart here but like uh uh yeah yeah it's okay i tie my hand to to it back so i don't follow that way and i was like okay i never knew what that was until like very recently because i never bothered to like really paid that close attention to like it's such um a song that has had me in a chokehold for a number of years i've seen foster people like three times most recently last year when um he came back on stage um you know and And the Tortoise album, that debut album, I mean, that was a no-skip album.

1:06:48 Although Foster People, I mean, although that one Pump Them Kick song, I will skip over it, you know, from time to time. But I do like that song as a live song. But... i i just i love the video i love the song i love the video um the video is kind of like a take on lord of the flies if you've read that book and yeah you know and it has this whole world gone chaotic you know the kids are surviving and they're just trying to like you know go after one another and they get it and they attack the band they hold them hostage and it was quite a video it's a really weird video it didn't seem to make any sense i mean none of their music videos from that particular album ever made any sense to me like when i look at call it what you want i don't i don't understand the meaning of it but i love the music video somehow um But yeah, but that is, but Helena Beat, I mean, yeah, I just love it.

1:07:48 I mean, the opening guitar rift and it's just, oh God, it's such a powerful, it packs a powerful punch to me. Wow. Okay. Yeah. You know, Again, in my research for this conversation, I listened to this song for the first time. Well, that's not true. I realized I had heard it because I listened to this Foster the People album, as we've talked about. I love indie music. That's like my preferred genre. So I'm very familiar with Foster the People. Yeah.

1:08:29 but hadn't really deep dived into this song in the way that you described having seen the music video and made the connections and really connected with the song itself. I feel like they are the kind of band where, yeah, I love a lot of their music and they're just so underrated. I particularly love their song. Maybe this isn't the title, but it's like that. It's Sit Next to Me. Is that what it's called? Yes. I love that song, too. That's another good song.

1:09:10 Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's my favorite Foster the People song. That's a good one. And I, yeah, I agree with you that, like, Pumped Up Kicks is like a little bit... yeah it's overrated it's overplayed but it's also like it's also a very uncomfortable song i mean but the top yes really about school shootings and this is like a really uncomfortable topic you know yeah and i don't think that we have as a society have not really uh we haven't reckoned with that not at all so you know Like when I heard it, I was like, oh shit, these guys are like really saying something and doing something.

1:09:50 But like the reaction from a lot of people was not that. It was like, why are you writing a song about this? And it was like, well, of course you fucking Americans think that. Pearl Clutchers. yeah it's kind of wild to me but like i mean other songs that i do like imagination which is like really one of my favorite foster people oh that's a great song i love love love that song um yeah it doesn't get enough love at all but god i will i go crazy when that song hits my playlist but yeah foster people i mean i think underrated life uh band to watch i mean such a fun band to watch um next one The Game of Love by Michelle Branch and Santana.

1:10:37 Santana was coming off the heels of his late 90s comeback album, Supernatural, which featured the ever so omnipresent Rob Thomas song, Smooth. It's a song that really, I cannot listen to that song. If There's a Hell... This would be my eternity. I can't listen to that song. It's so overplayed. I love you. I'm sorry. I love you for saying that. I cannot. This is like my eternal damnation that I have to live through. If there was one, you know, this is what I'll be forced to listen to. speak your truth oh god but you know um but michelle branch on the other hand you know she was already a rising teenage uh pop rock star you know along with avril lavigne and and then vanessa carlton who many people confused her with um vanessa carlton you know for her uh particular song um a thousand miles um And this song introduced Michelle to a very more adult contemporary audience.

1:11:47 And Santana was still riding really high with that, with his previous album, which had a really strong guest lineup from like Lauryn Hill to Wycliffe to, I don't know who else was on there, but well, aside from Rob Thomas. Yeah, like, like, it's such a, I think when I think about the song, it's like a coming of age song for Michelle Branch, you know, I think this was such a turning point in her career. You know, she came off of a very successful first album, you know, which, to me, still lives on it's a very underrated jam to me.

1:12:28 And And I think about how beautiful and tender that song is. And originally Tina Turner was supposed to do the vocals instead of Michelle Branch, funny enough. And I have heard the Tina Turner version of it. I mean, I'm a big Tina Turner fan. But it just didn't seem to fit. Because I think for a song like this, I think a younger person who was starting to come into their own, it made sense. And Michelle Branch really took it and ran with it. interesting fact this video actually took place in Chicago Pilsen neighborhood probably around the time where gentrification was starting to take place but I'm not going to blame Michelle Branch or Santana for that but you know you see that video like they're in a bus everyone's kissing making out like everywhere you go but it's such a lovely song and I don't know was Michelle Branch a person you also grew up to and were you listening to Santana back in the day Wow, Randy, you're blowing my mind with all of these facts, first of all.

1:13:40 Yeah, I did not know any of this lore. I want to revisit this song. I definitely heard it on the radio growing up and was very charmed by it. I... I was in choir all of my life, like from the age of like eight to 18, like vocal choir or what? What is it? Concert choir. you know, all through, like, school. And so Michelle Branch, like, you know, is in my vocal range. I would, like, hear her on the radio and be like, oh, I can sing that and, like, you know, try to sing and sing along and all that. And so, like, this is definitely a song that came up as, like, oh, like, oh, this is so catchy.

1:14:26 Like, I love this. Until this day, you know? Yeah, it's just so, like, it's so catchy. And I will say, like, I did, I... came to the Rob Thomas, Santana Smooth song, like, as we all did. And so, yeah, like, hearing the lore of, you know, how this, like, song came to be is, like, and, like, the music video is so fascinating. But, yeah, I... I never, like... thought of this as i i think um i always thought of michelle branch in particular as um one of those what's the word like uh kind of uh like above it like above the above you know yeah yeah yeah yeah like she never um But now in retrospect, now that I'm much older and looking back on my assessment of the music industry and all the things we've talked about thus far tonight, I'm thinking about how maybe that was a way to protect herself, to be like, yeah like mom too and she was a mom too around that time you

1:15:58 know and the thing with michelle branch was that i think she was also struggling with the record label too for a period of time because i saw her perform in 2017 when she came back into music when she had an album and at that time she was getting engaged to the drummer for black keys um and you know she had stayed away for such a long time i'm like well michelle like you have such a gift and what's you know like god it felt so great to finally see her back doing music you know and yeah you know dealing with the the record label the politics of the industry just made it very difficult for her to release music when she was not even in her prime um and uh but like but you know when i go back to the first album the first the two albums that she had, they were just instant classics.

1:16:51 I mean, very catchy hooks, very pleasant sounding music. And Santana, you know, my, interestingly enough in the Cambodian community, especially among older people, Santana is very popular because, you know, songs like Black Magic Woman, Oyoko Mova, evil ways, those are very similar sounding to Cambodian traditional music. It's very similar. And so when you see the line dances, Santana music will kind of sneak its way in. And it's like, wow, this really makes sense. And at that time, a lot of Cambodian rock artists during the 60s and 70s were listening to Western music when the music was when U.S.

1:17:38 soldiers were stationed around Cambodia. And so it grew on until the genocide began. But Santana was definitely a very popular favorite. So, you know, like, yeah. So, yeah, I remember my dad getting that Supernatural album and I don't think he listened to it ever since. And I think it's because that stupid Rob Thomas song. Yeah, it's very colonizing. Yeah, it's terrible. But he also won several Grammys, so it's kind of like, you kind of have to play the game. Everyone had this love affair of Santana because he had disappeared for so long, and he was one of the OGs of Woodstock that's still alive, and I know that he's been dealing with some health issues from what I'm hearing, but what a legacy he has crafted over the decades, and When I think of Santana and Michelle Branch being together, these are two very different generations merging together.

1:18:40 It brought me an appreciation of Santana's music, but it also made me respect Michelle Branch more as an artist, as a fuller artist beyond the pop of an ear. Finally, it's Beyonce. We finally get to Beyonce here. I chose All Night. This came from the Lemonade album. This was coming on the heels of this whole marital strife, this whole drama between her and Jay-Z. The elevator incident where Solange knocked the hell out of Jay-Z. You know, kudos to Solange. But, like, the Lemonade album was such, like, a transformative period in her career.

1:19:23 Like, I think starting from her 4 album and then to her Beyonc�� 2013 album, which was a surprise release of the visual album, she was starting to really assert her control. Like, you could really see the maturation in her creativity, in her songwriting, in in what she wanted to present. And she also, I think that Lemonade album was when she started to become more political. I mean, at that time, she, for a long time, like the first 20 years of her career, starting from her Destiny's Child days, she was considered like the safe star, like the more palatable pop star, you know? And as she got older...

1:20:06 I think that she became more and more emboldened. And that came on the heels of the song from that first single, Formation, where she really took the wheels on that song. And it was a very empowering anthem for Black people and for Black women, especially. And, you know, you see the flooding, you know, her in the car, it kind of reminds us of what happened with Hurricane Katrina in 2005. And And it really showed her embracing her Black identity. And it was such an unforgettable piece of work that I saw the tour for it and this was probably one of my favorite tours I've ever seen besides Renaissance, which came later on, but I was like so amazed by the production.

1:21:06 I like, I saw Beyonce with Jay-Z for the first on the run tour in 2014. But then in 2016, when she did the Formation tour, my God, it was a whole nother dimension she took it. Like the visuals, the special effects, I mean, the kind of staging that required was unbelievable. There was one part when she did Freedom, from the album and the stage was filled with water and next thing you know like the water was splashing like her and her dancers were like kicking and the water was like splashing into the audience i was like wow this is such like this is like unheard of and you know for a while i would always hold madonna as like the best um live performing artist but i felt watching that tour beyonce really took the torch and really ran with it i mean the love of choreography the visuals the storyline um and coming from a really powerful album like lemonade All Night was such a song that I go back to time and time again.

1:22:20 I mean, this is about a song on pain and healing and reconciliation. I mean, you know, the lyric where she goes, baptize your tears and dry your eyes. I was like, oh, wow, this is such beautiful words. And it's underrated. It's an underappreciated classic. And I don't think she's ever sang that song live since the Formation Tour, surprisingly. Because it's such a personal song, looking back on her relationship with her husband, this was a song that I think really carried the conclusion, the near conclusion of that album.

1:23:01 So I'll stop and get your thoughts about what you remember about Beyonce before and during the Lemonade era. Yeah. You know, thank you for sharing that context about just like Beyonce's career and like her legacy too, because, um, it's so wild. I think about Beyonce, maybe like more than the average person does. Maybe not. I think we all say that too. Yeah. Like maybe that's not true, but I just, I think about, because so I'm, I really struggled with, I like made almost no notes on this section of our conversation.

1:23:49 When you, when you sent me your notes, I, um, Oh man, I... Okay, yeah. I struggle with my feelings around Beyonce and always have. Yeah, yeah. And I will like encapsulate that with some context that like... Yeah, I've just, like, had so many conversations with people over the years. So, like, I come from a gender studies background.

1:24:29 Like, I did my master's degree in gender studies at UW. And, like, hearing myself say that, I'm like, oh, you sound so pretentious and, like, so, like, whatever, like, self-righteous and shit. And, like, even at the time, like, you know, My friends and peers and, like, everyone I knew was, like, we, like, fuck with Beyonce. Like, we, like, love her music. And, yeah, again, for me, it comes back to, like...

1:25:11 I hate to nerdify this conversation. No, it's fine. Yeah, I'm just thinking about how you can like an artist, you can like their music, you can like all these things and then at the end of the day feel pretty complex and have complicated feelings about their engagement with capitalism and celebrity and industry and uh i i feel like i've said that about quite a few of the artists on the list knowing that like i also love their music you know um yeah for me like it just continues this like trend and this conversation that i think we need to keep having as like fans yeah um Yeah, I agree with you 100%.

1:26:13 Beyonce has created a platform for so many artists in various disciplines and fields, whether it's like fashion or like fine art or other musicians. Oh my God, even like marginalized artists, like drag performers and like trans artists, like she has elevated them in a way that no one else has. beautiful, necessary, critical. And at the same time, like, you know, She's a billionaire. Her and Jay-Z. I mean, and also Jay-Z's got a lot of large skeletons in his closet too.

1:26:59 So it's also very uncomfortable because I do love Beyonce's work and I love seeing her tours. I mean, I have been just mesmerized by her, by the production, the intricacies of her work. work and her album in her last 10 years of her the last 10-15 years of her album like I didn't enjoy like the solo Beyonce the first couple albums I was like I was okay with it it was fine it was you know whatever I mean it didn't make me that kind of a fan until 2011 and after where she was really asserting her control.

1:27:40 And I felt like, wow, she's really coming into her own. But yeah, I think that as to your point, Beyonce is a capitalist, you know? And so I do struggle with that. I mean, like, you know, I, I have been trying to, to scale back about my own feelings. fandom and my own support of artists that are you know very wealthy very powerful and um and and so also how that contributes to like the toxic celebrity culture that we see in politics and like there's a saying that you know yeah billionaires are not going to save us i mean so it's like yeah it's like it's hard for me to to like really get into the weeds about how i feel or how we feel about beyonce like yeah as an artist bona fide um what you mentioned like the way she elevates other artists especially with the women country black women country artists um that were like hidden um and the conversation arounding the impact of her music but yeah there is a there's a lot to be said about like okay do i really want to spend 700 800 dollars to be to have like a regular seat at a beyonce show would i spend 70 70 65 on a t-shirt you know

1:29:11 like i've been guilty of spending a ton of money on that woman you know it's like i mean i remember like i went to renaissance i went there twice you know back-to-back nights i bought like a couple i bought like maybe two hoodies um two t-shirts a program um and i don't know what else i got and then the and then the uh the merch guy was telling me what do you want your receipt no not at all and i just like i don't know how much i spent i really don't want to know how much i spent i haven't looked at the final cost i know it's got to be somewhere probably in the hundreds of dollars and it's like am I going to consume that kind of art and I think this year I've been having this reckoning the past year because I'm learning about how problematic my faves are and it's like do I really want to enable this you know how do I view their music?

1:30:06 How do I think about them moving forward? So that's still process. And Beyonce is definitely one of those artists that I'm trying to figure out what that looks like. Am I going to invest like $700, $800 in a seat? Most likely not. I think I've seen it all. Am I curious about the third installation of her series? I'd be curious about it, but I don't know how much I'm going to be invested into it. So we shall see. So on to the next one. So, you know, Bruno Mars is not a person I would typically put up there because like a good chunk of his songs, and I have seen him with my friend Jung like almost a decade ago.

1:30:50 I mean, I think he's such a great... live performer he's very likable and you know and he's got really catchy songs but like a good 70 to 80 percent of his um catalog really irritates the hell out of me like i just cannot them and the black eyed peas i cannot like i don't i i can go uh through life not hearing uptown funk or marry you or um just the way you are i could be happy not ever hearing that song ever again um but But Treasure. Now that song, I really do like. I love the grooviness to it. It's very, you know, it's got, it's not as overwhelmingly irritating as the songs that I mentioned.

1:31:32 Um... I also kind of wonder, because he just released a new album. I actually happen to like the new album. It's like, wow, this is like 30 minutes of fun and just chill. It has more of a Santana vibe to it. It's got more of him revisiting his Puerto Rican roots. And I... i found it to be enjoyable is it as memorable as other you know singles not as much but i'm like okay i i can i can really i can really get with that album um but you know i think of treasure it's i mean i i've seen him do the dance the choreography to that song live you know on tv shows and i'm like man this is such a killer song But I'm curious about your thoughts on Bruno Mars' career and thoughts on his legacy.

1:32:22 Do you see him as a novelty veteran act? Because I kind of see a little bit of cheesiness with him. It's very camp. And sometimes it's like, yes, I know he's a good artist, technically, but I'm also like, is he a serious artist? Is he capable of digging deep emotionally and also socially? Yeah. yeah no i think you have a strong super strong read on his whole persona and like public um you know presence i yeah just like hearing you talk about like this song that you chose in particular and just being like yeah like he is as a musician like You know, we his songs are bops.

1:33:13 I agree that Treasure is like one of the better bops. And yeah, I mostly like 90 percent of the time find a lot of his music to sound better. uh identical like all of his songs just kind of sound the same to me yeah like i went to a cousin's wedding i mean like like he's a fixture on wedding and weddings and of course my cousin you know played bruno mars a couple of times and i'm just like my god really like i don't want to hear uptown funk this is like no i don't want to hear um 24 karat gold i don't like i'm just like no like them in a black eye like him in a black eyed peas like these are songs that i don't want to ever hear in my presence yeah you know so yeah um but if that happens it's like time for me to hit the bathroom break and get a water you know get some water so yeah and i just like i see him in that In that respect, I see him as like a mascot for this era in our culture, in our Western culture of being like very palatable, very safe.

1:34:25 Yes, that is the word. Yes, Randy, like low stakes, you know, very limited controversies. I know there might have been some some stuff in his career about like drug use and things like finances to his gambling issues. Okay. News to me. Yeah. Like there's always something, right. So, um, yeah. So for me, it's like, I read his music as very much like, this is music that again, you can play at a wedding. Um, like, you know, it's recognizable if it comes on the radio, like to my like older South Asian, um, immigrant parents.

1:35:08 They're like, oh, this is Bruno Mars. When I saw him about nearly 10 years ago when he did the 24K tour, there were a lot of Filipino titos and aunties. It was so cute. I have to say that was like, wow, he really brought up that crowd. The older Filipino folks were really coming for him. They were really supporting him. I'm like, wow, this is the cutest thing I've ever seen. He had that kind of like charm you know it's like oh my god it's like i like he's like everyone's favorite son or nephew like you can kind of tell you know and i think that's very cute i was never a big fan of like the anderson pock and you know the silk sonic like i i have respect to the band to the music but it's just it it's i think as jean would say you know it's like music that you just f to and you know it's like i for me it's very forgettable you know it's like i don't have attachments Yeah, some stuff is forgettable and that's okay.

1:36:07 It's fine. You know, it's just a side project. And so we're going to go another across the globe to Korea. The next two songs. Abracadabra by Brown Eyed Girls. Now, I lived in Korea for three years from 2009 to 2012. And that was kind of when you have a shocked look on your face. Yeah. I did not know that. Yeah. So I did live there. And that was kind of when K-pop, the second generation, was starting to really emerge. And I was like, wow. At that time, it was not coming into the U.S. It was starting to kind of slowly make its way. Big Bang was kind of making its way. This was before Psy came in 2012, which he blew up radio all over the world.

1:36:48 But like... But when I was in my first year in Korea, like, you know, Wonder Girls, Girls' Generation, Super Junior, Shiny. I mean, 21, which, you know, I'll bring up here. Like, they were really emerging and they were getting harder to ignore. Like, I would walk around the street and... like every other store is like a cell phone shop and you would hear like k-pop music blasting like and you would hear these songs over and over and over again and it was irritating at times it's like god you know i really miss western music sometimes you know like i I can't like get past like the simple English chorus, you know, and it gets stuck into your head.

1:37:38 And, you know, when I was teaching English to my middle school kids, like, you know, I will say something like, I'm trying to remember, I could say like, sorry, like, and then all of a sudden they'll start doing that, you know, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, that song. And I'm like, God, stop it. Stop it, people. You're killing me. But like, but like, but when, abracadabra came out. This was a game changer. I remembered where I was when I heard that song. I think, like, I was in my home, I was looking through YouTube, you know, just out of curiosity, and, you know, and this song came out, and I was like, wow, this is such a banger, but, like, like, it had this, you know, seductive, very elegant, you know, very racy vibe that was different from, like, say, the Wonder Girls and Girls' Generation, which were more very friendly to a younger audience.

1:38:39 This was feeling more adult. And, you know, in Korea, you know, back then was more conservative in its... and what and how women are presented and and you know seeing that video this was like probably one of the more controversial videos back then because at that time you would see like two women are about to kiss and that was a taboo in Korea and so I thought that was like wow it really kind of started to push a lot of borders and I felt like that song was started to really set the precedent for like you know the 21 to um tiara to you know later on be the black pink and twice like it became more bold and i mean it was so hypnotic like i could not get enough of that song it was very like i've heard it at a drag show once and i was like man man this is so amazing i would get up to that song and go crazy crazy to it because it's so like you know powerful and and seductive again as i mentioned but also like as a gay man like this is like the kind of this is the kind of song that a gay man can dream of i mean this is like the real slutty korean pop you know of that nature so yeah i mean fun story um i was um I was, you know,

1:40:09 my friend Hannah invited me and a group of other friends because she said that she got tickets or that she got an invite to do the VIP to see Brown Eye Girls launch that song at a club in Hyundai in Busan. And I was like, oh my God, we got to do this. Like, this is wild, you know. And we were waiting for hours. I mean, I kid you not like this guy, this, you know, this white DJ was like spinning records and doing the same spin. And it was getting so irritating. It was getting close to midnight. I'm like, Oh my God, I am getting irritated. A lot of us were getting impatient, but when they finally got on stage, I mean, our digital cameras, digital cameras were on and we're like, wow, we're this close.

1:40:57 And this song was like really taking off. And Ever since then, it's like, I would tell stories to my old students about them. Like, yeah, I saw Brown Eyed Girls, especially when that song came out. Or I would tell, like, younger people that I saw Brown Eyed Girls. This was my first experience with K-pop live. And... yeah i i love that song to this day i'll probably love it for you know for many lifetimes and whatever incarnation i turn into so yeah what are your thoughts about k-pop i don't know if you have any thoughts about this particular song or um the k-pop groups of that particular generation yeah oh my god thank you so much for sharing that story i did not yeah that's so beautiful i um I feel like I have talked to.

1:41:48 So, yeah, growing up, I was not a K-pop fan. I would like fully disclose just because I didn't have access to that culture. And like, yeah, for whatever reason, like it missed me. But I obviously like I'm friends with K-pop fans who have had like experiences growing up and like um you know that that sense of like belonging and like community and like um camaraderie and like fandom like I feel like fandom is almost like this um what's the word like it's diminishing because it's like it's more than fandom like it is like it is community and so like hearing you share that story I was like very like oh that's so moving that's so That's so special and charming.

1:42:40 Like, yeah, I've, like, only recently been introduced to K-pop, like, quite frankly. Yeah, just because, again, I, like, didn't have access to it growing up. And, yeah, that's so... i don't know i'm just like more like wanting to hear about like your yeah your experience because yeah i um like obviously i um like i watched for example like i watched k-pop demon hunters because it's like everywhere right and like that was the thing a lot of people are talking about it as like oh, like there's always been this subculture in the West where like, you know, Asian Americans have like really been like, promoting K-pop and holding that fandom for the past decade or more.

1:43:43 But what K-pop Demon Hunters did is they brought it to the surface. And it brought it to the forefront. And like, I think that's absolutely true. And so, you know, like I watched the movie, I like watched all of the like fanfare around it. I watched all the award shows where they were like rightfully like awarded for like, you know, the various like the vocalists and like the performers and the creators and all of the talent that went into creating that film. Like that has been like so special to see.

1:44:23 um and like in retrospect i'm thinking back on like oh like there's a whole legacy that led to this moment like there's a whole legacy of all of these acts all of these bands all of these groups all of these performers um and so like yeah hearing you talk about like essentially being a part of building that like feels really cool. It's kind of wild because, you know, I was not invested into K-pop much after I left Korea, you know, like, like I would listen to twice. I listen to Blackpink. You know, I went to a twice concert a few years ago and it was my first real K-pop concert.

1:45:07 And yeah, and it was at the united center and my god the audience was wild like i have i have been to to a lot of concerts but i mean you have girls screaming at the top of their lungs you have like men and boys like you know like literally memorizing like every part of the choreography like there's like a serious level of dedication that I have not seen in fandom like even even more so than a Beyonce concert where like at the Beyonce concert at least the last few you would see people literally dressed up you know like I like you know like for a renaissance people were wearing the disco hats and you know wearing all silver For Cowboy Carter, everyone was dressed up as a cowgirl or a cowboy, or at least in a Western-themed outfit.

1:45:55 I participated in that too. But for K-pop concerts, there is some serious dedication to like learning the words, the choreography. I'm like, wow, this is like, sometimes I'm wondering, is this really healthy or is this like really community building? So I kind of go back and I oscillate back and forth between that. And the thing was that I never took K-pop like that seriously in some ways, as far as because the way, again, we talk about the Western music industry, the Korean pop industry is very toxic. I mean, the way, like, we have seen, like, you know, some of its stars have, you know, been unalive to suicide.

1:46:41 And, you know, you see, like, the level of intense labor that they have to go through. And also, like, you know, as a person who grew up on the Madonnas of the world and Janice and, you know, the Lady Gagas, like, where it was about the you know, the forceful nature, like the F you. And K-pop didn't have that for me. It was kind of missing that. And I've been wanting more of that energy because I feel like as an Asian person, I'd like to see more assertiveness from us in a way that's very unapologetic. you know so the next one would be Fire 21 I mean 21 to me I mean I love their music I think that I was hoping to see them reunite I mean they kind of did a brief reunion last year but I'm like I want them to do a tour because I would pay to see them like their music was like a predecessor to the Black Pings the Twice Cat's Eye and you know and so many other you know groups and i mean this song was like i remember hearing fire i mean i would like this was a club banger like i would dance to like a korean nightclub man i would go like go off like it is such um it's a song that just gives me life and i i look back at my fun korean my three years in korea and i'll listen to like those songs you know and it really takes me back to a really good place sometimes like wow you know this is

1:48:11 this is timeless for me um Next one. A Korean artist, but not K-pop, B-Sweet by Japanese Breakfast. Sure. This was from Michelle. Well, the lead, the front person, Michelle Zahner, who would be known as the author of her memoir, Crying in H Mart. That's kind of when I started getting to Jay Bracky, which is their nickname of Japanese Breakfast. And, you know, Japanese Breakfast had been around since like 2014. It was like right after her mom's passing, which led to the memoir a couple of years ago. And You know, their music has always been very indie.

1:48:52 It's very ballad. It's very slow. It's very sad and somber at times and very wistful. But B-Sweet is like a... It's like a contrast to their catalog. And... It's probably like one of the few very upbeat Shape Rocky songs. It's got a very retro 80s sound to it. She's a mixed Korean American and it's pretty cool. She's got great fashion taste. I've seen her a few times in concert. really enjoyed it i mean she like it's hard for me to not root for her because i i feel like you know she has such you know good music and yeah what have you been have you listened to japanese breakfast and have you read crying in h mart yeah love love uh michelle love japanese breakfast um This is so revealing of me as a Pisces, but I have purposefully...

1:49:58 not read Japanese breakfasts or sorry Michelle's yeah I have not read Michelle's crying in H Mart memoir because I know as a Pisces I will like be a wreck and so I'm like oh I'm gonna like give myself some time maybe like when I have a sabbatical or like time off from work i will like take some time where i can actually like read it and process my emotions and like cry a lot and like you know because everyone i've talked to who's read it which is like almost everyone in my life has been like it's so good I was so emotional.

1:50:44 And I was like, well, you were emotional. You have to get past the first chapter. That's kind of where I feel like if you can get past the first chapter, that's great. It becomes a little bit easier to bear. But that first chapter was tough. It was beautifully written, but God, it was, I mean, I'm a Pisces, I'm a Pisces, I'm a Pisces rising. So, I mean, I got very emotional. I think I was in Maine and I was outside and I started reading and I just, I got very sobby, you know? Yeah. Like I cry at the top of hat. So, um, Yeah, this is this is good to know. But yeah, no, her music is so it's so great. And I agree with you. I think B-Sweet is my favorite song of hers.

1:51:25 She's just so she's so beautiful. great she's so talented she's like rose up through the ranks again from like indie to more mainstream and like has like really maintained an integrity around her voice and her sound and her writing um and her musicality um and yeah she's just one of those artists that i really admire i think we're maybe close in age i'm not quite sure but um yeah, I was, like, I'm so glad you included her, um, in, in your list, because, yeah, and, and, and on top of that being, like, not that, like, she has asked to be a representative of, like, mixed race Asian American artists, but, like, for better or worse, she is a representative, um, you know, and, um, I think a lot of people look up to her and find a lot of inspiration and motivation in her journey.

1:52:31 Yeah. And also what I respect about her is that she's willing to reclaim. She's very open about reclaiming and trying to understand her Korean identity, especially in the wake of losing her mom, who is a Korean woman. And part of crying in HMR talks about that loss of culture and, you know, because it was tied to her mom. And so there was a big tug of war and, you know, it is a good read and, and it made me really appreciate her music and softness and tenderness that she carries in a lot of her songs. And, you know, you think about the other Asian Americans and, or the Asian diaspora artists, you know, like Olivia Rodrigo, Anderson .

1:53:13 Mitsuki. I mean, they're all kind of in that same like peers level, you know, like, you know, dealing with, you know, mixed identity. Dealing with trying to navigate what it means to be a representation, even though this is not something that you ask for, but like this uncertainty about like where your identity is and what your music means and how it hits your own audience and in your own communities that you are a part of or that you're born into. Yeah. Next one is one of my favorite. 2001, we're in a 25-year anniversary of the Moulin Rouge, Lady Marmalade, Pink, Maya, Christina Aguilera, Lil' Kim, and a little cameo by Missy Elliott.

1:54:03 It was the summer of 2001. just turned 18 years old and that song was such a banger like i wow i i can't tell you enough how much it reminds me of like the one of the few memories that i the few good memories i have of senior year in high school and um you know i remembered you know pink was emerging as a star christina aguilera was starting to like really emerge you know past her debut album and into the stripped album which would come later And, you know, Pink was also transitioning, you know, into going from an R&B artist to a pop rock artist to the second album, Misunderstood, which would be released later that year.

1:54:46 Maya was emerging as another big artist, Lil' Kim, also emerging female hip hop artist, Lil' It was also a cover of Patti LaBelle's original hit. So, yeah. What do you remember about that particular era with Lady Marmalade? Because I fucking love that song. Randy, this is crazy. I have such strong memories about this song. And again, I'm just like... maybe we were on some kind of same parallel magnetic field. Even though I'm like, yeah, was in, again, in middle school when this song came out.

1:55:27 But, oh my God. So I had a very tight core group of girlfriends in sixth grade when this song came out. It was like me and three other girls in middle school. And I somehow like these girls decided, so the song came out and these girls decided we're going to do our own choreography for this song. And again, this was before social media, before no one had cell phones, no one had laptops. So it was just like, we're doing it for ourselves. We're not recording it.

1:56:08 We're not doing it for anybody. Like literally just like, we're going to do some choreography to Lady Marmalade. And, like, that was... like now that I'm like thinking back it was like oh like that's how you like solidified your friendships as like a young person in the early 2000s like that's how you um this is before TikTok and this was before TikTok yeah like none of that existed and so I have just like these vivid memories of like being in my friend's uh one of my friends living rooms and like choreo like doing choreography to lady marmalade um and i am am i in touch with any of those girls now uh 20 years later 25 years later no but like you know the memory remains of like you know it was like this whatever like That was the thing that like little kids did.

1:57:18 And so, yeah, that's my memory. It was my karaoke choice plenty of times. And I mean, obviously I do not have the voice of Christina and I would try to hit the high notes and that didn't work so well. I would do the little Kim rap and I would get that. So I'm happy about it. Maya, I'm trying to get on my show still, so cross my fingers. And also because I kind of want to know what happened between Pink and Christina because they were fighting. They were at each other's throat. Oh, my God. And they have since made up, you know, years later because, you know, Pink and Christina are in their, like, you know, soccer mommy stage, which...

1:57:58 I miss the old Pink. I like petty Pink when she was very much like very angry and like, you can't tell me what to do. And I love that about her. And she was a hell of a dancer too. But I think there was this memorable conversation that Pink recalled when the women were in the meeting, Christina and her record label guy comes in in the meeting. And says, well, who's going to, so this high note, it's going to go to Christina. And then Pink, like, raised her hands, like, well, this is not what the meeting's for. Like, the meeting's for who is going to do it. And, like, and, you know, and she took it very personal.

1:58:41 And she's like, well, she's not going to have the high note. And, well, lo and behold, Christina, you know, ended up doing the high note. And... Rightfully so. She had the range for it. I mean, you know, not to knock on pink, but, but there was a little bit of a tussle between those two for a while. And, um, I kind of want to know what happened. You know, I don't think Maya is the kind of person that would be messy that way, but damn, I kind of want to, I would, what I would give to be a fly on that wall when, you know, but damn, what a great song. Can't believe it's 25 years old. It's very unnerving. Um, so thank you for joining in so this is part one of our long deep dive with my friend Anjali Misra and so part two is going to come out the following week and it'll go from number 18 to number 25 so hope you stick around for that and as we talk more about the impact and the legacy of these songs and the artists that created them and uh yes and if you like the uh podcast uh feel free to give it a five-star review on apple podcast and uh share the Substack share the youtube to uh folks that would be entertained by this so thank you and uh let's uh hope that you stay in for the next one