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May 21, 2024

How Knowing Our Students’ DNA Can Help Us Succeed as Educators (Tom Hierck/Alex Kajitani)

New teachers coming into the profession often struggle in knowing what to do/learn first. Indeed, as my next guests say, for most new teachers, the goal is simply surviving day to day and to make it into their second yearof teaching.  

Join me and my guests, Tom Hierck and Alex Kajitani – book authors and Solution Tree education consultants – as we discuss their new book – You’rea Teacher Now! What’s Next?  We discussthe importance of forming relationships with both students and colleagues, as the key to survival, and knowing our students’ DNA – Dreams, Needs, and Abilities. We also discuss how administrators should know the DNA of their staff.   

Developing positive relationships with students lets students know that teachers care about them as individuals and helps teachers to design lessons that speak to student interests and aptitudes.


Tom Hierck LinkedIn

Alex Kajitani LinkedIn

You're a Teacher Now Book

Tom Hierck Website

Alex Kajitani Website


Music - Aylex



Unknown Speaker  0:00 

Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode of the habit life teaching podcast. And as some of you know, I am a student teaching advisor at Brooklyn College, where I educate our brand new up and coming student teachers. And every semester we query our students as to what are their biggest concerns. And two of the biggest concerns that often are expressed by our teachers are one classroom management, and to have to deal with parents. Now, those are key critical questions to be asking ourselves, for sure. But often is new educators, I know I fit into this category, we don't know what we don't know. And so it's really important, I believe, as new educators to really have a grounding in what the key questions are that we should be asking ourselves. So we're setting ourselves up for success. And because of this, I'm really excited today to have two guests joining me, they just written this fantastic new book, titled your teacher now, what's next, Tom hurt president and CEO of her consulting, and facilitator with solution tree and co author, Alice catani, who is a California Teacher of the Year, and top four finalist for National Teacher of the Year, as well as president and CEO of catani. Education. So gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate this.


Unknown Speaker  1:28 

Thanks for having us, John. And let me start off by saying kudos to you for taking the time and being that mentor that guide for new teachers, probably more so than any other point in my 40 year career, this is becoming really quite critical. So your work is commendable, the fact that you're willing to devote your time and energy to bring these people along because we need them.


Unknown Speaker  1:52 

Thank you so much for that gentleman. Would you mind telling us a little bit more about yourselves? And how did a focus on helping new teachers become an area of interest for you,


Unknown Speaker  2:04 

John, thanks so much for having us on. I'm Alex Kakutani, as you said, California Teacher of the Year, and really for me, it was just I started getting asked to go help new teachers very informally at first, Hey, Alex, we've got a teacher who's kind of struggling, you know, over in room 14, can you pop in and lend some advice and and that sort of, over the years built and progressed into going into formally coaching teachers, new teachers, especially those who were struggling in their first few years. And so, over the years, I have really started to see as and then which led to a lot of great conversations with Tom, we started to see the same things, we started to see really the same questions being asked the same struggles, that new teachers were having the same mistakes that they were making, and sometimes the same successes that they were enjoying, as well, and so are our conversations turned into giddy excitement about all of the ways that we could help and that we were both helping and individually helping. And so we really took all of our notes and all of the conversations we've had with teachers and, and all of kind of the, the hard parts and the hard moments as well and put them into this book.


Unknown Speaker  3:19 

It's really quite interesting. So it's your 40. For me, as an educator, pretty much any role you can think of in education I've had the good fortune to be a part of. And what I find energizing is these conversations is this capacity to sit down with new teachers, my youngest daughter is a teacher, I can sit in her class and marvel at some of the things she's doing and learn from her. And so one of the things that that's always important is on some levels, we're all new. There's always going to be something let alone major events like what we are still in the rebound phase of that pandemic, thing, learning is there now, are we veterans, are we newbies willing to engage in that conversation. And every time Alex and I get together, we will fire it up based on things that we've heard. And we love the notion of helping colleagues process through some of these challenges. This isn't meant to be the only way you can do these things. So we have a chapter on building relationships. There's a list of things you can do. You got to figure out which one works best for your style, how you bring things to the classroom. But we guarantee you this there's a stuff in there for every educator.


Unknown Speaker  4:31 

Indeed, and I wish I had a resource like yours when I was a new teacher because if I was able to perhaps free my own instruction, in the ways that you lay out the book, I think it would have helped me with some of the chaos I experienced as a new educator because there's so much being thrown at you as a new educator. It's really difficult to know sometimes. What's important. What do I need to concentrate on right now? Well, and what's good to concentrate on once I have some breathing room, rather than talking about the why it's important because again, I think it stands for itself, why supporting new educators is important. Alex was just mentioning that you've been seeing trends, both in terms of questions, new teachers have, as well as some of the mistakes that you're seeing new teachers make. So would the both of you mind talking a little bit about what those trends are, that you are seeing when it comes to new educators?


Unknown Speaker  5:34 

Yeah, I think that one of the things that new educators are really struggling with is really this the ability to form really powerful, significant relationships with their students. The one thing that we do not have control over are the students who walk into our rooms every single day, right? They come from homes that are different from political ideologies that are different, they come from all sorts of different experiences. And so we may not necessarily have control over that. However, once they come into our room, and as we argue in the book, well, before they come into our room, we have this opportunity to build relationships with students to really get to know them. And I think one of the things that we often miss out on as teachers is giving our students the ability to know us, they want to know us just as much as we want to know them. But sometimes we focus so much on just learning about them that we don't give them this opportunity. And in a real powerful relationship is built. We are what as we say in the book, be interested and be interesting. Our students are amazingly interesting people, we got to be interested in them. But at the same time, as educators, we are amazingly interesting people as well. And we have to give them a chance to know us. And so that was one of my favorite chapters to for us to really write as we really outline specific ways that you can go through any teacher of at any level can go through and be both interested, as well as interesting. And then, as you said, not just stopping there. And now that I know something about my students, how do I take this, put it into the curriculum that I teaching, put it into the lessons that I'm delivering on a daily basis, we


Unknown Speaker  7:16 

talk about this notion that when kids come to school, they're coming to our house, the only house over which we have control, let's stop lamenting what's going on in that other place over which we have zero capacity to influence. So Alex is just alluded to, they come in with all kinds of stuff, pick any factor you want. And we're gonna get a continuum, whether it's ability, whether it's athletics, whether it's socio economic, whether it's political perspectives, whether it's single child and family, multiple, all those things, any factor you can consider. When you come to school, you're coming to our house, you got all these wonderful surrogate mums and dads gonna love you, I'm gonna guarantee you become a reader and a writer, and a self regulator and a mathematician, you're going to find your unique talents and gifts that will allow you to make a valuable, valuable contribution. In the adult world, we've got this ability, one of the keys that we think in terms of rebounding from the pandemic time, is, are we intentional in rebuilding our family in our house. That's what we're seeing lots of there's a lot of frustration, a lot of angst, a lot of anxiety around behaviors and those sorts of things, we take the time to explain that this is what we're going to see. And the job for us in schools is to help kids understand, there are expectations, the job of a kid is to find out where the fences are. If there are no fences, they all become free range kids. Now, that's not going to be conducive to them, maximizing their opportunities and their abilities to be successful. The other part when I talk to new teachers, we all know this, your audience will all know this as well, John, first year teacher, you're just thrilled because you got the job. And life is perfect. I share with people you know what I wanted most as a first year teacher was to be a second year teacher. So I certainly wasn't going to do anything that I perceived in my mind. Not that anybody else created these, but I wasn't going to rock the boat. My practice response every time somebody asked me how it was going, awesome big smile, because I didn't want to do anything that might jeopardize my capacity to be a second year teacher. Those of us who have been in this game for a little longer need to see through that. I need to follow up with no John and really how's it going? How can I help? Because you've taken on three preps and you don't have your own classroom and you're coaching two teams. As the veterans in the system, we really need to go that extra step beyond how's it going?


Unknown Speaker  9:48 

I love that both of you talked about that. Because what resonated with me were three things that I heard you say or I heard you talking about the importance of forming relationships with students and that deeply resonates with me because I was having a conversation with my student teachers the other day. And sharing that that is something that marks someone is a 21st century educator as opposed to a 20th century educator, where I think when we were young, we were expected to come into classrooms and learn the teachers way and learn the teacher style and adapt to the teacher. But these student teachers coming in for all the reasons both of you mentioned COVID, different family situations, need to have a safe place, they need to have a secure place. And they need to know that their teachers care about them, that focus on relationships, for new teachers, and how to help teachers develop those relationships, I think is critical. So I heard that. I also heard classroom behavior or classroom management. As we all know, those of us talking, having good relationships with students should help with classroom management, because again, the students know that we have their back. And then the other thing you note that I've spoken with other educators about, but I think it's important to reiterate, often educators go into the field, because we want to give we want to support. But if we are empty, if we're tired, if we're exhausted, we are not teaching them in the best way. It is important and acknowledge that it's okay to have fears have concerns to not have those great days, as Tom was mentioning before, how's it really going? Because that's how we're going to keep people in the profession. Those are three great areas we could talk about, I would be curious to know what are needy 123 different strategies in each of those areas you might recommend for new educators to help support them.


Unknown Speaker  11:54 

I'll start with the third one first, because Alex and I were just talking about this before we came with you, right, this whole notion of self care, we've got to be considering self care to be healthcare, we've got to understand self care is not selfish. Because to your point, John, we all get into this profession to be givers. Well, I can't ask you to give your best if you're not at your best. And so what are the strategies and we spend a lot of time talk with colleagues, what are some things you do for you? And it's always interest, right? The first round of that is, Oh, am I allowed to? It's almost like seeking permission from. So we have a chapter in the book on self care, we talk about things you need to be doing intentionally, to disconnect from what strategies work for you? Is it reading a book? Is it going for a walk? Again, we're not trying to be prescriptive and say, Look, I don't want us to stress you out by saying you must do this amount of self care every day. Because if you're not, it's not going to help you. So what are some activities that you might pick up? What are some ways that you can compartmentalize? And what are some things where you must exercise grace for self, to the same degree that you exercise grace for others? Now, again, this gets back to modeling from those of us who have been in this profession for a while to say, look, it's all right. What do we do to rally our team? Do we have activities, and I know everyone's overburdened. But there's something about us connecting outside of our place of work and enjoying each other's company, whether it's just going for a little celebration, we know that whole notion of self care being healthcare, we have to start getting that mindset. Alex, you want to pick up on one of the others.


Unknown Speaker  13:45 

It's funny that you say that, Tom, because I was working with a group of new teachers at this past year. And they said, our superintendent has made a real push toward self care. And what he wants us to do is he wants us all to do a two hour module online module on self care. Not only do we not have time for that now I got to sit at my computer for an extra two hours and do this. And so it immediately made me think about something that saved me my first year of teaching I here in Southern California. So many of us grew up surfing and I would first year I was sinking. And one day one of my colleagues came in and said, Hey, Alex, you're a surfer, right? I said, Yeah. He said, Every Thursday afternoon, we drop what we're doing when the bell rings at the end of the day. We all go surfing for a couple hours, then we come back and finish our work. Grab some dinner. Well, I began to look forward to those Thursday afternoons it became my favorite day of the week, not only because I was getting get to do a fun activity, but just like Tom said, because I was gonna get to do it with a bunch of people that I really was getting to know and enjoyed being around self care is so critically important. And we also want to Britt make that bridge to caring for each other as well. And so when we talk about specific strategies, were really in the book talk about the importance of surrounding yourself with good people. When you surround yourself with other really great teachers, you have no choice but to be a really great teacher, when you know that the people around you have got your back it makes your life it makes your job it makes your day to day It makes your minute to minute, that much easier. And and you talk John a lot about the student teachers and things like that. The other thing that we're seeing in a big way. And a big reason we wrote this book is a lot of teachers are now coming in through alternative certification programs, all cert programs or as intern, so they're not necess, they don't necessarily have the formal training, they didn't necessarily go to school to be a teacher. They don't necessarily have the formal training or the student teaching. They're just Varone in Whoa, crazy thing called teaching. And when you said you wish you'd had this book, when you were just starting, that's our goal is for no one to ever have to say I wish I'd had this book instead for them to say Thank God, I have this book.


Unknown Speaker  16:02 

Exactly. And it's funny that you mentioned that because recently I just spoke with Meghan Conklin, who does a lot of work with substitute teachers out in Washington State. In fact, she works with the Education Association and develops teams of substitute teachers where even if they don't have the support within each of their buildings, and let's face it, subs are going from building to building that lease can be drawing upon each other, and Megan, through these meetings that they have these dinners that they have. So that had been gets me to a follow up question. Let's say a new educator or a new teacher is in a school where unfortunately, it's not like Alex's school where teachers aren't doing fun things with each other outside of school. How do you recommend new teachers connect with others recharge if their school building isn't the most congenial place to do that?


Unknown Speaker  17:03 

I think that's really important. And I think it's important to recognize also that just because the culture at your school is not necessarily an ideal culture, that doesn't mean that that's how it is at every single school, the first school that I went to the one I just described, where I went surfing with, with my colleagues, that was a wonderfully collaborative culture. And then we moved, I got to my second school, and it was pretty toxic culture, if the teachers were not supportive of each other. Now, had I not been in that first school, I might have walked into that second school and thought, wow, the teaching profession is not what I expected it to be. I'm out of here. But because I knew that there was this other school that existed that had this positive supportive culture, I knew, Okay, sometimes it's just about finding it getting to the right place, or, or finding the right place in which I, I want to work. And so I think that's something that's, that's really, really critical to realize is doesn't mean it is that way, at every single place, something to keep in mind as new teachers start, there's a school out there for you. Just like there's a grade level out there for you, just like there's a subject out there. Problem is we don't always get put in it at the very beginning. And we kind of have to find our way until we we know what we're where we excel the most. What do you think, Tom?


Unknown Speaker  18:25 

Yeah, no, I think it is. It's really about finding and again, that fit that place of comfort for you. And he said, I think that the onus is also on those who are in the system. And I think sometimes as educators we forget to share that. Yeah, you know what, there are moments that's not the night it's I can think of things I'll we all can during our careers that have been very defeating. But then you bounce back, because there's so much joy. There's so much good in this profession. It is the only profession that gets to shape every other profession, every other future. We are in the life saving business. There's so much good that comes from this and as veterans, we've got to make sure we're offering wise counsel, not just just wait, right? Just wait, if you think this is bad, just wait, stop gathering and confess other people's sins, and start promoting what's awesome about the work we do. Indeed,


Unknown Speaker  19:22 

and the other thread that I'm seeing in our conversation is definitely this thread about relationships. We talked a little bit before about teachers forming relationships with students. But what we were just talking about as teachers forming relationships with each other as well going and looking again at how we develop relationships with our students. Now that we've talked a little bit about finding communities and school cultures where the relationships are key for each other with each other, but now talking about our students, how would you recommend new educators go about forming the was relationships with their students, Tom,


Unknown Speaker  20:02 

you've got to tell them about the DNA activity. My favorite and favorite things in the book there go ahead share about the DNA active. So


Unknown Speaker  20:09 

one of the ways you know we talked about is this whole notion of the term discovering every kid's DNA. Not the DNA is teachers, a high school science teacher, but the DNA we define as their dreams, their needs, and their abilities. Every kid has dreams. They all come in with things that they are jobs not to be the dream crushers, I share the story of Bud Webb a five foot seven professional basketball player, can you imagine Spud Webb in high school, going with coach and said, Hey, Coach, I want to be a pro. And the coach kind of looking down and saying Spud, we got a little bit of problem here. know our jobs not so every kid has dreams. We've got to help them to live their dreams, the needs the end part, often driven by the other house they live in. And so they come to us needing some things. That's all right. That's what we provide here in our house, their abilities as unique as the kids themselves. We've got kids who can surpass adults in some of the things they can do. I've got six grandbabies, my two middle grandsons love to skateboard, they are way better at skateboarding, then this old guy, and when I try and I fall down, they bounce up quickly at 10 and 11. At 63, not quite quick enough on the bounce up when we talk about discovering every kid's dreams, needs and abilities, their DNA that then can be used to build relationships, as you just articulated John, but also to drive instructional design and delivery. So John says he loves monster trucks. You know how easy it is? For me in this day and age to find out some stuff about monster trucks. And on my next math question, throw in the name of a monster truck. Now you got to keep thinking, wow, my teacher cares about me enough that this isn't just a math question. There's a monster truck question I'm digging in. So what do we do to start to build those authentically? And then value them? not judge them? John really? Tell you what, why don't you get your work done? And then we'll talk about those silly monster trucks of yours. Not Oh, fascinating. That's great. Equally important, by the way, get back to our adult relationships. What do we know about each other's DNA? Because I think sometimes we view colleagues through the role they play. We approach every kindergarten teacher with a new picture book, because that's all they read. We think every special ed teacher is a product of special ed, we almost start teaching slow talking slower and louder. What do we know about each other. So the DNA discovering dreams, needs abilities, using that as a foundational approach to build connections. I've got some schools that have been doing this for five years, John, they've kept the kids DNA books over time. Now the kids can see how much they've grown, the adults can marvel at the influence and the impact they've had to help those kids grow. I


Unknown Speaker  22:56 

love that. And you just mentioned something that I'd love to explore a little bit more. What's the DNA book?


Unknown Speaker  23:02 

So we keep the track kindergarten, I have the kids do their DNA, we use it during the course of the year we talk to kids, we let them modify if the unit on planets, some of you love that, do you want to add anything to your DNA? Well, now I'm keeping that. So I got kindergarten. Now I've got grade one. Now I've got grade two, when the kid is transitioning from elementary school to middle school, they're going to take their DNA within their DNA book, the receiving school can see Wow, John in kindergarten wanted to be an astronaut. And in grade three, he doubled down and said, yeah, now that we've done all this, I really want to be


Unknown Speaker  23:37 

it's interesting how that DNA book can really align and be, I guess, synergetic. With portfolio assessment. Absolutely. You know, we spend so much time talking about academic performance and academic growth. But imagine bringing the DNA book along with the academic portfolio, to really see how a student is growing as a whole human being.


Unknown Speaker  24:04 

And you want to reshape parent teacher night, let the kid lead the conversation, pulling out their DNA and their portfolio, and let mom and dad know what they've done and how they've grown. What they're proudest of what represents the greatest improvement and what they're still struggling with. Fair enough.


Unknown Speaker  24:20 

Indeed, we talked a little bit before about the goal of this is to really help new teachers succeed. We've talked about so many aspects of teaching and just our 20 minutes that we've been speaking about now relationships, building in student background knowledge in the curriculum, interest in the curriculum. We talked about behavior modification, we talked about getting to know each other as colleagues, if you had to simplify what success for a new teacher could look like or should look like given all the things that we could be focusing on as educators If I was a brand new teacher, and I was in survival mode, Tom, you had mentioned, I think it was Tom, my goal is to go from a first year teacher to a second year teacher, Alex, Tom, what would that success look like from year one to year two? For


Unknown Speaker  25:16 

me, I think it is really the fundamental notion of does the teacher feel well supported? Throughout the year does the teacher feel like they are part of a supported collaborative culture, like they're part of a community, as they say, people don't quit jobs, they quit bosses, we've all worked for people who and worked with people who we felt cared about us big ways, and in important ways, and we really wanted to be a part of that school community. Many of us have worked for people who we felt like they didn't even care if we were there or not. And probably that was we didn't do our best work at that point, to say the least to me, it's really about does the teacher feel supported as they go through the year does the teacher feel like they are growing as they go through the year, sometimes that support and that growth comes from the teacher next door, sometimes that support and growth comes from an online community? Sometimes it comes from the principal handing them a book like ours and saying here, this helped me I know, it'll help you to,


Unknown Speaker  26:19 

Alex, before we go to Tom, and, Tom, I want to hear your thoughts on this too. What do you think admin could do to be supporting our new teachers.


Unknown Speaker  26:31 

So I'm going to go with one of the most absolute basic, basic strategies of all time, which is say hello, and goodbye. Now, this may not seem like a big deal, or it may seem like a well, da. But if you've ever walked into a restaurant, and you walk in, and nobody greets you at the door, and you're just kind of standing there, or you leave the restaurant, and nobody says Hey, thanks for coming in, and goodbye, you don't feel as good, right? You don't really feel like that's a welcoming environment. And so I know that, you know, administrators, all of us are so so busy throughout the course of our school day. But when we walk onto campus, and our boss, you know, however you want to frame it says, Hey, glad you're back, how's everything going, and at the end of the day, says, hey, we'll see you later. And so you can't wait to see it tomorrow. That makes the biggest deal. It also works obviously, for how we talk to our students. But it's fundamental to our existence as adults as well, we need people to say, hello, say goodbye. And then of course, just checking in seeing if there's anything that we need. So


Unknown Speaker  27:35 

I want to leverage that. That whole notion of belief and self self confidence, self care that we touched on before, to me is is an incredibly important precursor to caring for others. My mission in my 40 years as an educator hasn't changed since year one, John, you're working with pre service teachers, I remember one of the assignments we had to do as a pre service teacher was to come up with with our own mantra, our own rallying cry our own belief statement. And mind was this, every student is a success story waiting to be told, I'm going to own the fact that I thought it was kind of keeps you when I came up with it kind of corn, barley, but I have doubled down on that every year, I've been in education. And I believe that every kid is a success story waiting to be told. And our job as educators is to help them tell their story. And the stories are as unique as the kids themselves. But every kid has the capacity to be a great adult, our jobs are not to create good grade three kids or grade seven kids, or even grade 12 kids. Our jobs are to create fabulous adults, that the 13 year experience we're calling school prepares all of them to make valuable, viable adult contributions. Regardless of what that contribution must be. For each sector, every job in every community is going to be done by kids we're working with today. Let's have them take those on with passion and purpose.


Unknown Speaker  28:58 

Tom, Alex, anything we haven't talked about, either in relation to your book or new teachers that you feel our listeners should know about. It really


Unknown Speaker  29:09 

does come back to the modeling we do. For me, it's a simple phrase. If you don't model what you expect, you should expect what you model. The eyes are on you always. I cannot say to my teaching staff, if I'm the principal of the school, hey, go forth and make good relationships with every kid. I know Alex can push your buttons, but hey, you know what? And then I don't do that. I have a teacher that I think's a little ornery. So I don't know. Because then I'm being false. We've got to get to that place where we model what we expect that it's evident. Not easy. I can think back as a teacher. Gosh, there were some kids that were way more likeable than other kids. I get it. Sometimes it's about shared interest. You think Alex wouldn't have any trouble getting along with a kid who wanted to be a surfer dude, absolutely. But his job is not to just pick up the surf We're doing, it's to make sure every kid believes Alex cares about me, Alex needs to go to the faculty meeting and feel like the principal cares about me. The principal needs to go to the district meetings and feel like the superintendent cares about me that whole modeling is critical. So


Unknown Speaker  30:15 

I'll reinforce that with one of my favorites. Ralph Waldo Emerson, the famous writer quotes who said that which we are, we are all the wild teaching, obviously, we're out there teaching our academics and our procedures and our routines. But mostly what we are teaching to our colleagues, to our students to ourselves to our own children is, who we are, how we interact with the world. And they're taking that they're watching that. And they're learning from that more than anything else. And I said, that was the closer but one last thing that I think we really are passionate about when we talk about it in the book is just to keep in mind that the student who drives you the craziest, the student who makes you the maddest, that's the student who needs you the most. And to always keep that perspective at the forefront of all that we do that sometimes it's that student who shows up every day to make things difficult, but they're the ones who show up every day to say, hey, you still gonna love me, and you're still gonna welcome me into your class. You bet we our kid get in here. And


Unknown Speaker  31:15 

I'm glad you mentioned that. Because looking back now, there were definitely students early on in my career that were so challenging to me. And I look back now and realize I could have probably done more for them. And had somebody framed it, Alex, the way you just framed it, maybe I would have had that in the back of my mind, maybe I would have thought more about their needs than my needs as a new teacher. If anyone gets anything out of this conversation, I think that's one one nugget or one pearl, that we definitely want folks to get out of this, that being a 21st century educator is supporting the kids we find most challenging. And to Tom's point, we can even take that up as an administrator. Our job is to support those ordinary teachers that we might find challenging, because again, the more we support getting back to the circular notion of schooling and school community, the more we support those people, maybe those stay ornery, maybe they won't, maybe they'll feel more vested, maybe they won't, but at least in our hearts, we'll know that we're doing what we need to do to support those folks. So that we don't have the thoughts I have 20 years later. Oh, I should have done this. I should have done that. So gentlemen, where can people find out more about you and the work that you do?


Unknown Speaker  32:40 

I'm going to Alex kakutani.com It's al e xkjitani.com. And you can also find any of my books or me and Tom's books on Amazon or through solution tree


Unknown Speaker  32:53 

and I'm just at Tom here.com last name. First name, last name is Tom. And then H I E r ck.com. Lots of great information there. And we love working with colleagues. That's what drives the work that we do as difference makers in this world of education. Thank


Unknown Speaker  33:08 

you both Tom and Alex for your time today. This has been a great conversation and I appreciate it.


Unknown Speaker  33:13 

Thank you


Transcribed by https://otter.ai