#155: Alistair Higham - Match Flow Momentum

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 155 of Control the Controllables. I'm excited for you guys to listen to this one.

Alistair Higham  00:18

If you're wanting to control momentum, you're thinking about your game, and how you can improve your game. Your game versus their game. Where Where can I apply pressure to exploit your weaknesses? And then turning points and events of the match. Where is this something in the game that I could capitalize

Daniel Kiernan  00:42

Alistair Higham, match flow and more mentum. I've known Alistair for a long time. I remember Aleister took me away when I was only 13 years old. So he's someone that's been around at a very high level in the sport of tennis for 30, 40 years now. And then over the last few years, he's developed a real passion to really dig deep into a specific part of the sport. I was fascinated to understand which way this conversation would go. I had some strong opinions myself, that I wanted to put to the test against Alistair and all the science that goes behind momentum in sport. So if that's a subject of interest to you, you'll love it, you'll get to know Alistair you'll hear many different stories from his time and get a stronger understanding to what the objectiveness of much flow and momentum in a tennis match or in a sporting match or in your life, you know, sometimes we feel as if the momentum is with us, or the momentum isn't with us. So I hope you enjoyed this one. I'm not going to talk any longer because it is a long episode. Apologies for that, but I think it is worth it. And it's a real learning episode for you all. So I'm gonna pass you over to Alice to hire them. So Alistair Hi, I'm a big welcome to control the controllables How you doing?

Alistair Higham  02:12

Thanks, Dan. Yeah, good. Thanks. Yeah, very well. Very well. Thanks. And

Daniel Kiernan  02:15

You had to go and catch COVID to try and put me off. You know, we were supposed to do this a couple of weeks ago. And you can't you've got nowhere to hide now I've got you

Alistair Higham  02:25

No, it's all it's all up front now. All better all recovered. So hopefully, yeah, if I dip out in the middle, it'll be electronic not COVID.

Daniel Kiernan  02:33

Right. Well, it's good to have you and I know look and for the listeners, we are going to get into a big topic. Today. The meat I guess of our conversation will be around I know a big passion of yours. Alastair around momentum, momentum in sport. You know, it's a conversation I'm really excited to have. But I guess if we talk about the, the momentum of your life, how it started, it has to start somewhere. And where did that passion for your tennis start?

Alistair Higham  03:05

Well, I think it started when Tom Dolan Dr. Tom Dolan contributed some money to build some new tennis courts in the little town of Wigton in Cumbria. And in those days, there was a million things to do. So we we started hanging around the big, shiny new courts, and they were great. And I think it's my mum and dad. We're not gonna say beginner tennis players, but there was certainly no experts and but more and more I started cycling down there and hanging around the tennis club. And it was great and kept playing and eventually played club matches, and then went to play Chatsworth tennis club in Carlisle, which is now the main center in Cumbria with its indoor courts, but not in those days. And having played a match or two there, an envelope came and was put on our Clubhouse in Wigton. And it said to the little redheaded boy in Wigton, and it was an invite from Kathy Messenger, who was the county coach to county training. And luckily, I got to it before the very talented little redhead involved. And so I went to, you know, went to county training and really enjoyed it. And I think, you know, the people around there at the time, Mike Robinson, Kath Messenger, very welcoming, very team focused Mike was then a big influence really, he was county captain at the time. And having just met him. I actually remember him coming to play an exhibition match with John Messenger. And I would be he's a bit older than I am and I would be 14 and actually got his autograph at the time. I remember going to get his autograph at the end because he played a backhand Smash. And I'd never seen a backhand smash I thought it was amazing. I never knew existed as a shot. And it was a clean winner right down the middle I can see in my mind's eye right now. And you know, went on to play doubles with him. best man at his wedding. investment at my wedding. And I've never seen him play into the backhand Smash, since that's the irony of the whole thing. That was one of the things that really got me into tennis, and never seen him play another one since.

Daniel Kiernan  05:10

Isn't it funny, I use this. I speak to Jamie Delgado a lot about this. I, I watched Jamie play. I mean, I was at the under 14, orange ball. And he was playing the under sixteens. And he'd won the under 14. So we went and watch him. And, and I saw him holding his backhand grip quite extreme. I didn't know it was extreme. I didn't know. I just I just liked it, I thought and from that day, that's how I held my back end. And right, it is these small things and, and I can't help thinking what an authentic little story of told there, you know, even from the letter that is dropped off to invite you to go to county training, and then to your story of the backhand Smash, because nowadays, it's just not done in that way. There's almost probably an expectancy to be picked, you know, and there's so many different ways of that message being delivered. And and then there's so much on YouTube on Instagram on tick tock that you're seeing so many of these things. How do our youngsters I guess filter the filter that information to have those real wow moments? I don't know if you found that with your boys as well. We played tennis?

Alistair Higham  06:33

Well, I think it was definitely free range in that was age and now it's much more battery produced isn't it's about battery chicken, so to speak. But I think boys and girls or boys and girls ultimately and there may be distracted by technology. But I think there's still there's still hope they're they're still looking for those, I guess older people to look up to and influences on their career. So yes, as a parent with my boys, I mean, I think they was very, very lucky to be surrounded a by a tremendous facilities in Nottingham, but also just some great people in tennis. I think we're very, very lucky in tennis to have some amazing characters, many of whom you've had on the podcast, who really have got great character, great stories, great influence. And I think whether it's because tennis, brings that out through the competing, the camaraderie, the fact that it's an individual sport that we have to get together with people from very often far away and make contacts. I mean, I know it's not a team sport. So we don't always have that aspect. But it it really is a great sport for having role models and, you know, characters around you. And Cumbria.

Daniel Kiernan  07:46

You know, I'd say if it take you back to Cumbria, that I was I was a boy who our go to holiday was the Lake District, you know, it was never, it was never appreciated by me and my younger days. And what I would do to spend more time on the Lake District now, you know, the one of the most beautiful places that there is out there, but I don't think I ever saw a tennis court when I was when I was up in that part of the world. So it really is quite isolated. So it's it is interesting that that you managed to get into a sport that probably wasn't the masses in Cumbria, I guess weren't being exposed to the sport of tennis. No, One question that jumps to my mind and you know, when I have these conversations with so many people now Is it is it the sport that you think you bought into? Or is it the people that give you the experience, I guess through the vehicle of the sport that you buy into?

Alistair Higham  08:30

No, it was it's quite niche, isn't it? I mean, there's facilities are still minimal up there. And we did our county championships in Kazakh, which is beautiful in fits part with the mountains all around. So that was great, a lot of chance to reflect on your match because it was raining. But it did help me learn a lot about tennis. And I think it did help me learn a lot about momentum because I was either county champion or number one for 20 years in a row, partly because it was a small county. But what that did is it put me in a position of as number one seed with people aiming at me a lot. And of course, when that happens when there's a favorite and an underdog, then very often the underdogs playing really, really well. And the favorite might be a bit nervous at me, I might be a bit nervous. And then there's a moment where you just move away and actually learning about how matches and the dynamics and matches move. I think probably that influenced it quite a lot by, as you say not having very many people who played and therefore as somebody who played a lot, being one of the better players than that was, you know, I think that really impacted on on how I learned about the game. I think they have to go hand in hand It is definitely I mean, definitely the people, but the people and the relationships around the sport and the discussions around what happened and looking forward to the matches and match T's after the drinks in the bar, the chats between the experiences shared experiences on cord. So I think, I think you've hit on something that I think it is the people, but it's around the sport, and the relationships develop through what happens in the sport. But it's definitely wouldn't be happening if it wasn't for the people around it.

Daniel Kiernan  10:36

And as you take that point forward, because obviously, you you've you've coached for many years, I know you've moved into, into different roles nowadays, but at the heart of who you are, certainly what I know you as is, is a very good tennis coach and someone who was, who was yourself influenced so many people, you know, and I think what we find ourselves in those positions, sometimes we don't realize how powerful, privileged, influential the position of a tennis coach is. What was it that that moved you towards the coaching? What was it that you attracted you to be a tennis coach,

Alistair Higham  11:21

I think staying in sport was a big motivator. And I think that not having to do to the highest level I achieved I beat players who were ranking, but I never really got a world ranking, played German club league played in France, but was always falling short and fly growing up in Canberra sort of missed an opportunity to train to a higher level from a young age like, like there is the opportunity to do now. And I think as a coach, there was a chance really to help players achieve perhaps what I hadn't achieved. And I think that was the motivation, but my background is teaching as well. So it was it was a natural, actually French teaching. So I trained as a French teacher at university, but never went into it went straight into playing and then coaching. So I think the teaching led to the coaching and you know, you are coaching players, you know, it's all the same teaching you don't coach, you saw it, you don't teach French you teach pupils is that is the way to go about it. And that's a little the same in tennis, you know, you teach the players and, you know, really enjoyed bringing the players on particularly to win tennis matches. And

Daniel Kiernan  12:28

tell tell the listeners a little bit about your coaching journey. You know where that started? Where that where that took you to because you, you obviously reached a very, very high level as a tennis coach as well.

Alistair Higham  12:41

I think you'd be well it began in Cumbria doing a little bit of coaching. And then when I was at university, and I would do my level one in those days, but then having left and started playing full time. It was my dad who said, Well, you've got to do your level, you know, the next levels. So by that stage, probably actually level three at university. And as it is now. But then when I was playing full time I did my level four because it was it was he said, Well, why wouldn't you do it now when you've got the time and then if you go into coaching, when you finish playing, you can just step right in rather than finished playing. And then I've got to do my coaching badges and qualification. So that was always a sort of a sideline. So it was a dual career in a sense. And I think it's it's always important when you play full time to understand why you're playing and what you're gaining from it even if you don't win Wimbledon and then that way it was easy to get other things contacts qualification travel experience, or great results of playing full time. But in particular, the coaching and that so I guess that led into that that is some coaching for Simonik cringle round Ilkley and then a job came up because I actually had also organized and Thomas still V w tournaments if you remember those income

Daniel Kiernan  14:05

I remember the name Yeah, I do. I'm sure I'm sure I played that a couple of years.

Alistair Higham  14:09

Yeah, they were great, Tom, great tournament. And and I was totally organized for that the person who had been my boss, I guess in that although it was only part time thing. recommend me for a job in Nottinghamshire. As county coach. In fact, it's called countercultural development officer in those days was part time role. And that's when I got really seriously into coaching because that suddenly you county coach and lead full time for two years and probably too young or too inexperienced, but learned very quickly on the job and after a years coaching coaching everybody schools, coaching beginners, coaching intermediates, coaching county players, I very quickly realized that I enjoyed coaching players and I wanted to coach players and I wanted to really coach them to a high level and so Oh, Ian McCulloch, who was couny secretary at the time found us and sponsorship. And we were able to, there was probably six to eight players who we thought could be really good. And some of them you would know, Helen Reese be there, right, Andrew Wakefield, Jamie Drummond, Mark Powell, Vicki Hall, Claire Carter. So that group of players, I started coaching individually, but I quickly worked out that if I saw them each once a week, individually, and they had some squads, county squads, or regional squads, I was still only seeing them for three, four hours a week. So I decided, I talked to all parents talk to the county, and I put them all eight of them really, in on one or two courts, for all the time, they would have had individual coaching and squats. So rather than see Claire once a week, and Helen once a week, and everybody, suddenly they go from getting one hours of individuals to eight hours of the small squad training. And that that in itself made a tremendous difference. Because I think we're very lucky in tennis we we can, as good coaches accelerate the process. But simply by hitting balls, they get better. And therefore the more balls you get, the better you get. And, and that made a tremendous difference. And at one stage, there was many, many players on the rover scheme, I think is anybody in the country because they all went on to that national scheme called the roll roll the scheme at the time, but they were great times we were going to France, we were going to play in France playing the circumvention man, we were you know, they were intense. I mean, he couldn't do it. Now. I don't think we had my wife went with me. fiance at the time is that sort of support. But you know, just great times and campsites finding practice courts playing the all the best of the French going round, coming back playing the tongues here, and didn't earn any money, but had a great time and learned a lot on the job.

Daniel Kiernan  17:07

It's very, it's very Spanish style that is, you know, you know, well, yeah, just the very much, that is kind of how it works in Spain, it's, they hunt in packs, you know, that's, that's really the model over here, it's, you know, you've got, you've got 102 academies. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean an academy has 100 players, you know, an academy might have eight players, and what one or two coaches and, and they, what they do is they all go to the events together, you know, and, and they support each other, they're with each other. You know, they're they're pushing each other all the way and almost as close to a team sport as it can be, you know, even though you're you're competing individually. So you were maybe ahead of your time doing that.

Alistair Higham  17:56

Well, maybe. And I think it was great times, I think the the one downside to it is probably I was so focused on those eight players, that probably wasn't a production line at the time. So I didn't really, perhaps cater enough the next level down. But yeah, that's nicely to say being had at the time, but it was, it was just doing what we thought was the right thing to do. And I think my parents had been a very influential French teacher and a history teacher, but we always went to France. So I was just used to traveling. And I knew, I mean, like Spain is tentacles everywhere in France, and there's tons everywhere in France. So the real experiences actually and learning quickly about coaching and in particular, performance coaching and the ability to improve your players from match to match, as opposed to coaching in a vacuum from matches.

Daniel Kiernan  18:51

Yeah, because can you, in your opinion, truly develop a tennis player if you don't see them compete?

Alistair Higham  19:01

Very, very difficult. I think it's, you can't imagine a football coach, Juergen Klopp. going, yeah, good luck. On the weekend, lads. Let me know how you get on a Monday. I'll be back on Monday. See you next week. And every other sport has this coaching to a fixture list. And they coach during the week to improve the performance at the weekend. And of course, the performance across the season. So it's not all short term coaching. You're far from it, you're working from match to match but you're also trying to develop the skills that you're gonna need for future matches. And incorporating. I think it's a big interest in the momentum and match flow as well is incorporating the experiences from matches into the coaching is critical because what we're running is a learning program effectively our coaching programs and learning programs. So we can't afford not to know what our players are experiencing and matches and incorporate them back into the sessions that we're running. If The aim is to improve match, play, and appreciate that that's not everybody saying that might be cardiotonic tennis for coaching for well being mental well being physical well being. But if it's if you're coaching for competitive and match play, you certainly have to have meaningful debriefs of the matches you didn't see. And I would say you need to watch a good amount of matches, whether that's on video or turning up or committing to a number of weeks per year. So yeah, and in fact, I personally don't think I can, I'm a very good coach, if I don't want watch matches, I get a bit if I'm honest, I get a little bit edgy when I'm coaching, if I'm coaching somebody when I don't know how they perform, because I feel a little bit. I don't want to say a fraud, because that's wrong. But I feel I'm not on the money. Blinded, I feel blinded, I feel like I'm only getting half the story and can't help as much as I can. So I'm still coaching now coaching a player who's top five in the country, and 14 have been coaching. He's actually just moved now to tennis school. But again, watched a lot of matches was watching video last weekend from now you can watch it on stream, because you just need to know what they're experiencing in order to help them. And

Daniel Kiernan  21:24

I think I think that's a really important conversation, Alistair, because and as, as always, there's two sides, you know, because there's the coach sitting there listening to this saying, Oh, well, it's easy to say that. But I make my I make my money on a Saturday, I make my money on a Sunday. And it's why actually i i personally struggle a little bit with self employed coaches, and hourly rate coaching, I think it I think it's very restrictive, in terms of in terms of how you develop a player. Now, this

Alistair Higham  21:58

Sorry to interrupt, I think that there's we're really trying to help those coaches in the work that we've been doing much for our momentum, because I think part of it is having meaningful discussions and having the tools and the language to have those discussions with the players. So you if you coach a player, and you're not able to watch them fully understand the finances of that. But the frustration I have when I've not watched too much. And I said play How did you get on the go, I just played badly orange as well. I was thinking was alright, yeah, if I watched that match, I would have two pages and note three pages of notes. I'd be working on this and that. So I think you know, what we've been working on with natural momentum, the online courses is designing things that language and a framework for discussing what happens in a match, but also being able to review it properly. So you can incorporate the sessions. So incorporate the lessons from that match in your sessions, because it's been properly reviewed, and taken time to do that. So yeah, sorry, I keep pulling it back to the mentor match for which you can tell it is my passion. But that's how we look.

Daniel Kiernan  23:02

And that's it's something that 100% I want us to really dig, I want us to dig in. Because I think it's a fascinating subject. It's a subject we don't see a lot of, you know, and, and I think the fact that it is your passion, you've spent years studying this and getting to a point where you've got applications to bring it through. But before we go there, I just want to I just want to get your thoughts on this. Because I value you as I mean, for the listeners to know, Alistair used to take me away when I was young. So I know, I know, we look the same age, but he's

Alistair Higham  23:43

Still young listeners, just so you know, he's still very young. So it doesn't make me that, old

Daniel Kiernan  23:47

got a few years on me. But you've been you've been involved that the sport at a very high level in lots of various levels for so long. What, what is the answer to because I think we all know, and we can, I don't mind being quite blunt on these things. Forget developing a tennis player, if you're not going to regularly see them compete, you know, bottom line, you know, if you're not going to be going on that true journey with them, you know, you're not the right person to be the lead. You know, you might play the consultancy role, you might play a mentorship role you might play, you know, just a support role. But players to truly develop to an international level need that yet that the structure of the way tennis coaches are set up in the UK, I think you can probably in a position to certainly speak about in the UK, is that it's it's very challenging for that to happen. For and for the for you guys listening, do a very simple maths. If you paid 40 pounds an hour and you're working eight hours on a Saturday. That's pretty much probably a third of your income that's coming in on a Saturday. sort of give that up to go or watch your tennis match unless you are being compensated for that is very difficult. So what is the solution? Or what are some solutions that you think to that to that problem?

Alistair Higham  25:12

Well, the first, the most innovative I heard is from Keith Reynolds, who has a stack of good ideas. And he is obviously hugely respected across the world. And one of the things he said was, coaches could consider charging either a monthly fee or an annual fee. And for that, you get the package and the package includes I will watch 10 matches, or I will watch 20 matches, and I will coach you for this many hours. So it's not, you know, it's an innovative way. And I don't know if it's been tried, but I remember he told me that quite some years ago. And I think it's probably it's how most businesses are now monthly or annual. And certainly, I think you could, on the website or on your advertising material, it wouldn't be too hard to commit to watching to being at some local tournaments for a number of days of the week, you perhaps wouldn't impact on the income too much. So most places have got a tournament that's an open top nearby or a county champs nearby and to commit to a number of days that I think is quite possible, then I think, I mean, obviously, the video now and the streaming and the ability to watch online and be able to watch in your own time away from the well at the times when it suits you when you're not losing money. I think that's another potential solution.

Daniel Kiernan  26:33

Before we move into your philosophy, which I think will take us into into momentum. What are your strengths as a coach?

Alistair Higham  26:43

I think probably tying things together. If that's not too loose, a way of describing it. I think as coaches we need to be able to prioritize and tie things together. I think it's very easy to get in down down a rabbit hole. And I think I've learned to prioritize well, and see what's the most important thing to work on. I think helping with match flow momentum and winning tennis matches, I think is I would say that as well. Team, I've learned a lot of that team as well. So I really enjoy captaining teams, whether that's the British university team or from a county team or club team. I think, you know, knitting the teams together is something that I've learned from people who were able to do it. And it's not too complicated, but it's I think it's something I really, really enjoy. So I think probably those elements, I think, I think one of the difficult things as a coach is to see certainly as a younger coach, I remember coaching and Vicki Hall and we had three, three sessions the week before the Nationals and I worked on the backhand volley quite a lot. I remember every every session works. Unless you're in the quarterfinals, nationals she will and she played for three hours have a guess how many backhand volley she played? she played one, it was a double handed one. And it went in. And we've been working on this. And so that was kind of a lightbulb moment, you know, you better start prioritizing the things that are important to the match. And yeah, so I think that's what I would say.

Daniel Kiernan  28:15

But doesn't that though again and my experience of you Allister as a coach, you know, is, is you were you were all in, you were in you were you were you were there you were with your players you were. And it goes back to my to my point. And I want to I want to ram this point home for coaches listening, because it's when you're all in, and you're not just teaching lessons, you you have a vision. And the example I always give is developing a tennis player is like putting a 50,000 piece jigsaw together. And if somebody takes the box away, and you don't see what you're trying to develop, it's now very difficult to contextualize that information, you've got on the orb and stands back. And it's very difficult to contextualize all of those things. So it sounds to me like you're a bit of a visionary, who can almost see the the picture you're trying to create. And if you do that, you can then bring that back to go well actually, that ties into that. And that ties into that in order to create that. Whereas, whereas I get the impression that a lot of coaching is done. Wednesday, four o'clock, see you next Wednesday. And when that next Wednesday comes around, shit, what are we work? What do we work on last week? And what Okay, well, I've seen this good video. I've been on this good conference. So we'll do a bit of it this on this week. But But where does that fit into your final jigsaw puzzle that you're trying to bring together?

Alistair Higham  29:53

I think that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that done. But I think I think I do start with the end in mind. And I think, you know, I think it comes from watching Wimbledon. And being a big supporter of tennis as a 12, 13, 14 year old when we didn't really have many successful players. And every time a new British player came out, and there was a lot of false starts in those days, as a supporter, I would be thinking, Oh, could this be like a my football team, somebody I can really get behind somebody who was passionate, who had variety, who played the way that I wanted to see them play. And I think that's definitely come through into my coaching, you know, can I see them walking out on the big stage and entertaining people with variety playing, attacking and, and also, I think it's an interesting discussion about building the type of player you want to build in the future, which might be a different player for it has to be a different player for each player, that will be able to be successful. Because so having that longer term vision starting, you're trying to see where they could go, and then working on the strengths that could, you know, take them there. And I think if you can do this for, you know, for the higher levels, I guess can be for any level, but if you have a vision as to how they could play what they would look like, and then work backwards and keep it in mind as you go. That's definitely something that I suppose I have learned to do. And it's an interesting discussion on how much you adapt your game during a match. So I do believe you should adapt your game. I don't think the great players really change it. But the ultimate would be in football to play like Man City or Liverpool do they don't they adapt bits, and they solve problems, but you know what they're going to do, and good luck trying to do something about it. And I think that's really what in terms of helping players to win tennis matches. You want each player whether it's the power of Serena or the consistency and topspin of Rafa or the way that Federer pulls you apart, you want the other person the other end to feel, I don't quite know, hunger, if they get their game on the court. I don't know what I'm going to do about this. So I think there is definitely a feeling of starting with the end in mind with that. I wouldn't say invincibility, but that very, very high level and then working backwards to try and achieve that.

Daniel Kiernan  32:23

Good. And I think actually, the way my mind goes through that as well as to it, it because I know everyone listening to these podcasts, it's not just about international level tennis. So it might just be about developing a simple forehand stroke, mini tennis red, you have to have a clear vision of what that looks like. And if that if that looks like this, now you've got your processes and your steps to try and develop that. You know, it can it can certainly be be done at at all different levels. And, you know, different magnitudes as well, I believe.

Alistair Higham  33:04

Yeah, I think so I think it's easier as they develop. And you can start to see the physical qualities and their game style developed through the teenage years. But you can always have, you know, some basic things which are building blocks, but a mini tennis read on the tennis orange that are going to be required for the future. So I think that's important. Those development years are really difficult because you try to balance a number of things you try to develop for the future, you try and have a bit of success now. So they stay in the game. Because long term player development is the most important words for me, there are long term, they've got to be in it for the long term. And that means they've got to keep playing tennis rather than the much easier option of football or cricket or netball or basketball or hockey, yeah, what am I saying or Xbox, Fortnite, exactly. Where easier though, so so there has to be some success, but you're also trying to build things for the future. And that's very often selling them selling the idea of changing most of the chopper grip when the nine which is probably going to result in less success, but it's going to be way better for the future or developing the use of a drop shot where, you know, classic, you know, they don't use it because they're scared and therefore they never use it and when you're going to start using it or they use it a little bit earlier on and maybe make some mistakes. But so as you develop the player, it's about those building blocks for the future, then very often they only come into their own lecture on but certainly the vision and seeing where it could go is there from a young age at all levels as well at all levels as well. On

Daniel Kiernan  34:41

asking your strengths without asking you weaknesses.

Alistair Higham  34:46

So areas for development is the

Daniel Kiernan  34:49

Your areas of development your constructive, constructive areas as a coach.

Alistair Higham  34:56

It's something that is difficult to do sort of articulate straightaway, because I think it's very situation specific. I think that when I was younger, my area for development be working with older players, because you're too close to them in age. And I think that the less coaching you do, the more distance you can get from, you know, whoever you're coaching or want to coach. So I think my areas for development probably at the moment is, if I was going back full time to coaching would be to be around to be full in to be like, as you say, to be full on. And all in naturally, with things I do now. I've been pulled into different areas. And yeah, so I think I think Area Development would be, you know, to really commit if I was going to go back into full time coaching. And

Daniel Kiernan  35:50

My last one on coaching, which I think will now feed us into, to the match flow and the momentum is what what are your key philosophies as a coach? And and I guess the second part of that question, Alistair is, how have those developed over the years as well? What's the evolvement of your philosophy been over the years?

Alistair Higham  36:10

I think I was, I think it takes a long time to develop your philosophy. And it's definitely evolved over the years. And I think I'd like to develop thinking players, I think that's really important for me, actually, to develop think independent thinking players, players who can think that way through a match. I think, therefore, that impacts on your coaching and the way that you coach, therefore, I would be, hopefully holistic, hopefully inclusive, hopefully, it would be a shoulder to shoulder approach. So I wouldn't be the all, I wouldn't be the great authority standing in front of the player telling them what to do, I will be working with them to develop their game. And as I've developed over the years, I think when I was younger, I think it was probably a bit too outcome focused, probably bit too focused on winning. And I think if if I think shortcutting, that by telling them what to do, would it be a mistake that I make, and probably still make, because you can see what to do, and you want to tell them because you want to help. But actually, they need time to make the mistakes, and they need time to develop their thinking. And, you know, problem solving isn't something you can just give them the answer. You can't give somebody the answer to a problem and expect them to develop problem solving, they have to go through a process and you need to allow time to do that.

Daniel Kiernan  37:36

One of my favorite little, little stories around. Hopefully, this will make sense Dr. Lester is around the sat nav. You know, if you're trying to, you're trying to find your way, somewhere quite complex, and you use the sat nav on Monday, and use the sat nav on Tuesday, and then I take the sat nav off, you're off, you're on Wednesday, you probably won't be able to find your way. Whereas if on Monday, you struggle, you use a map, you know, you really try to find your way Tuesday has been of a struggle. By Wednesday, you've probably got that route locked in for the next few years. You know, and I think that is a theory, I think is I it's wonderful. I love it. I love that theoretically, the practice, the practicality, is so much more challenging. So do you have any little tips for coaches out there? And I'm certainly one of them, that maybe needs to bite my tongue at times? Do you have any tips on how to allow that holds that enough story to unfold with our players?

Alistair Higham  38:39

I think it's bite size, isn't it? I think we've got to develop like everything a technique we would develop a technique would go bite size and then put a little bit more pressure on and put a bit more pressure on. Give them more and more. So I think it's step this is bite size step by step approach. So I think little problem solving exercises, which are manageable but restricted. So you know, within coaching, giving them a, you know, a tactical problem to solve, such as I'm now going to play a certain way, can you solve the problem within 10 points. And let's have a discussion at the end to see if you spotted the problem and what you thought your options were as if it starts with solving little problems. And you can start bigger problems and bigger problems and bigger problems. And of course, your ultimate problem is when you're on your own in a match. You know, and it's an important match to you at whatever level. But if you've not had those little problems to solve along the way, then yes, that'd be my tip, create little problems and then build them to bigger problems and have discussions about

Daniel Kiernan  39:44

Like it. And the passion, the passion that you have made me and Alistair I wish we'd recorded our conversation because it was that a couple of weeks ago. I was like this is a great podcast. This is the information Um, momentum match flow momentum where, tell us tell us your journey into that. Where's that? Or where did that start? Where did that light bulb moment that then then made you want to really dig, dig into it even further? Well, I

Alistair Higham  40:15

think it's a number of things. I think it's definitely watching Carlisle united. I know you're a Newcastle fan, Dan, I'm a Carlisle United fan,

Daniel Kiernan  40:21

Have they ever had momentum?

Alistair Higham  40:24

Well, there you go. I think that's where my interest came from going along on the bus to watch Carlisle as a young boy. And we didn't often have that momentum. And occasionally one match in particular, we came back from three nil down to win four three in 12 minutes last 12 minutes of the match. And it was such an electric feeling. So what's this? You know, what, how's this happened? And what's this? This isn't never seen this before. So when you kind of starved of something, and then you see it, you think, Oh, that's interesting. So there's that there is the definitely the element of watching players. And listen, well, I think back to listening to country, I think listening to commentary growing up watching Wimbledon or French Open or any of the grand slams, and you're listening to the commentary, as you can listen now. And become would say about a player, a top player, usually something like, I saw the signs there and raise the game when it matters. And I'm kind of going what saw the signs. I didn't see any signs, what signs you're talking about. You raised his game. What are you talking about erased his game? Why wasn't he already playing his best? Why would he deliberately not play his best in order to raise his game? And I'm thinking, and then I'm having coaching, regular coaching lessons. And nobody's talking to me about raising my game. Nobody's talking about turning points of the match on the mentum. And then you keep watching and next week about the same player. They say, Oh, yeah, it didn't play his best. He played average. But he went ugly. It's really important sign of a champion to win ugly, which we know is true. And I'm thinking behind unless what you said he raised his game. So why didn't you raise his game? Was he deliberately playing and winning? Oddly. So you end up with all these questions and you think, something here the commentators are constantly talking about something that we don't seem to cover and coaching? Yeah. And then, as a young coach, coaching the players I mentioned before, I've worked with Keith Reynolds, as a mentor, Keith was fantastic mentor, and is still still is. And he he would say, how'd you get on in the match? And I say, Well, you know, we're gonna work on the short forehand or we're going to work on defense, why to backhand or the first surface still, you know, the wide first serves not working, you said, and to the parents watch the match on this too. And I said, Yes. He said, if you ask them what they think, and I thought, No, why would I sort of think I'm, you know, I'm the coach, and he said, Why don't you ask them get their opinion. And so I asked people like Claire's dad, Ron Carter, who was very insightful into it, and others, Kay Wakefield, David Wakefield, and they start saying strange things to me after the match, like she was going very well until her hair bobble fell out. Or he was going great until that national coach turned up to watch or he was going badly, but then his mate turned upon the next court, and that seemed to relax him did better after that, or broke a string and his favorite racket, or the weather changed, and they had to go indoors. At no point were they talking about percentage of first serves, tackling the short ball, any of that. And so that it's it got me thinking and what they were talking about is what as we as parents is the biggest supporters of our kids know is that we're kind of emotionally attached and so emotionally invested in how they do, we're sensing the good patches, we're sensing and locked into the bad patches and hoping they'll turn around, and they'll find their games again. And we're realizing what the turning points are after the match when we look back. So that was really a lightbulb moment. That was probably the biggest really, in terms of trying to understand momentum.

Daniel Kiernan  44:04

What is momentum? Momentum

Alistair Higham  44:07

is hard to define, but it's the feeling of things going for you and against you. So I work a lot with Anna Suarez to the sport psychologist who did six years of PTT, their full time sports psychologist now, Southampton Football Club, and while she's on maternity leave, actually, but and we she's done all the academic research. So we've got a lot of academic research on momentum. It's all evidence based, but in trying to define it, I tend to go back to the simple phrases that we can use as coaches. So I remember talking about different definitions to my wife who plays tennis, or county player, and she's doing the dishes at the sink and I said, What do you think momentum is you start that's easy. It's just the feeling of things going for you or against you. And I thought, well, yeah, that's pretty good. That's the kitchen sink definition. It is the feeling of things going for you or against a player. And beyond that, I would say it's at its most obvious when you use momentum surges, that's what attracts our attention when there's a surge in momentum, when things the match turns on its head, and it appears that everything's going better and better for one player, and worse and worst for the other player. That surging momentum is what captivates, as you see most when people are making comebacks, and it's almost like there's a different player on the pitch on the court, rather, and you feel like things have changed. And it's definitely got connotations, and it comes from things like a snowball rolling down a hill and getting bigger and bigger, or a runaway train that has momentum that you can't stop. And the difference in sport is that you've got to take both counts both sides into account. So it's there's always a competitor and opposition who's able to affect the momentum as well as you are. And so it's been like that train track being able to be turned on its head and the train running the other way, or the snowball, the mountain turning as well. It's not just a one way thing. So that's momentum and that difference that that feeds into and affects the journey of the match the pattern of the match, which is that, you know, you'd stand back and you'd look at the from a practice from the stand which which way is the match going at the moment? What's the journey of the match? Where's the match flow, and then you get these surges of momentum, which can change it. So that would be the broad sort of description and understanding of it. And the only thing I would add to that is what we got to do is link it to something that's, that's more tangible. And this is where we have to say, look, it's not a magic that comes through from the air. It's not because some windows changed, you've got momentum, it's linked to performances, and it's linked to your performance against their performance. Because what we see when momentum changes is your performance getting better and better, and mine getting worse and worse for a period of time. And that is therefore that's a really important point that momentum is linked to performances and how players adapt and think during a match.

Daniel Kiernan  47:16

I'm pleased You said that last bit, because if not, I was going to challenge you. But because I think that's my pet peeve. You know, and I actually think football commentators are a lot worse than tennis commentators. You know, I think I think football commentators deliver it as a magic potion of you know, Brentford, have got no chance. They've lost all the momentum. And it's, but it's, it's so it's so subjective. And it's so fluffy, that, that the objectiveness, I think, is the bit that certainly interests me in it, and I'm sure yourself, you know, and in terms of what you've just said, there, because I guess, for my very simple naked eye, if I'm talking about a football match a tennis match, you do get a feeling, you know, you get strong feelings when you're watching. But ultimately, if you remove those feelings, and you just look at the, the objectiveness of what is happening, one player is probably not moving their feet as much as they were, you know, one player is maybe not getting strong and balanced behind the ball as much as they were, you know, and the other player has a spring in their step. So is now getting to the ball a little bit quicker, which the ultimately that is what is happening exactly right, you see, the performances have changed, you know, what

Alistair Higham  48:47

They have changed. And, and that leads to that really leads to, I mean, one of the definitions of momentum is, is a feeling of progressing towards your goal. And that's what you'll hear when you hear about a political process or climate change momentum is building for climate change, it means a series of things that are seem to be positive or happened in short succession. And if you're losing the momentum, a series of things which are negative are happening quickly or nothing positive is happening as it was before. So you need to use your performance, to be able to create those positive things in your favor in order to build momentum. So I think you could think about it as well as progressing in a match. How are you progressing in a match and the best way to do that is through your performance, but more more importantly, probably the performance against so your performance against their performance? So I think if you're wanting to control momentum, you're thinking about your game, and how you can improve your game. Your game versus their game, where where can I apply pressure to exploit your weaknesses and then Turning Points and events of the match? Where is there something in the game? That's the third element, the game that I could capitalize, you've just missed an opportunity set point and you missed the volley? Am I aware of that? Do I know the implications of that, so that I can increase my intensity, make you play more balls at that time and see the opportunity. So I think in terms of controlling the performance, you are looking at your game, of course, got to get more first service, and I've got to start attacking a little bit more, my game versus your game, how can I play it to you and create a gap between my performance and your performance, so we can get that surging momentum where you fail to see a way to win, and I get better and better seeing my way to win. But also these significant match events, bad line calls, missed opportunities, changing the weather, broken line strings, which could affect you and give me an opportunity, or affect me if I respond in the wrong way, and give you an opportunity.

Daniel Kiernan  51:03

I think we mentioned this a couple of weeks ago on the call I listed but obviously the listeners didn't didn't hear that. So I don't want to not mentioned it today is that and I thought about this the last couple of weeks, a lot is how it makes sense in my head is when things are going against us. We the perception that it's going against us, we are having stronger internal experiences towards the negative, you know, ultimately experiencing more negative thoughts, more negative emotions, and, and the word we use at the academy is your ability. And that's the definition we have mental toughness is your ability, your ability to tolerate, to tolerate those emotions, and, and then shift your mind on to something more helpful in that situation. No matter how you feel. You know, and it's almost like the feeling the emotional bits, in most people will will lead to a decline in performance. Yes, if they're unable to tolerate the situation and the emotions that they that they are dealing with. So So I guess my question to you, because it's one thing to I guess, have the the understanding, you know, the understanding of what momentum is and match flows and changes, but how, how were you able to apply techniques to be able to help people to have those shifts? in your favor?

Alistair Higham  52:43

Yeah, of course. Well, I think, I think first of all, it's important to say that your performance we know about the four performance factors is technical, tactical, mental, physical, the two that you can change in a match are technical, and mental. That's not to say physical and technical won't change, but it's usually as a result of mental skills or your mindset. So you can't become you can't have more vo two Max, you can't consciously change your VO to match Max in a match. But you can through determination, run for longer, you can't change your technique, if you've got a semi western grip unit and start playing with an eastern grip. If you're double handed backhand, you're not going to become single handed slice as a, you know, a basic idea, you may become more fluid. But again, that's some mental relaxation

Daniel Kiernan  53:33

that's small, small, small adaptations that says both adaptations

Alistair Higham  53:38

And asset you might block or return for example. So we're in the tactical area, and we're in the mental area. So practically, you are looking to create this gap between you and the opposition gap in performance. And so that is through tactical adaptations and mental adaptations. And one of the things we've done to help coaches and players is written a whole online course. And that online course we go through the understanding, like you said, the understanding of the framework for understanding, but then the practical tips to affect momentum and they're all to do with tactical choices, tactical options, and mental options. And a way to think through the match. So the change events, how do you stand back, see the bigger picture and think your way to win? And so that's, you know, that's all in the online course which has done one for a 10 week program for coaches as well. And it's all available coaching edge uk.com But as practical tips to coaches here on the podcast, I would say you've got to look at adjustments tactically and adjustments mentally to improve your performance. So you mentioned emotions, the the idea of the match running against you and a negative emotions. I think that You know, we're in the mental skills area. And that's where Suarez is doing a PhD in turning points would be really interested in the, the turning points aspects of momentum, because that's significant match events. Now, one of the things we would say from those match of answers, it's not, if it's a turning point is, if a match event comes along is not a turning point is a potential turning point, it's only ever a turning point depending on your reaction to it. So therefore, being able to use mental skills, committing to keeping your standard high after significant match events actually can be measured. So one of the things we do in the British university team is we have shot of the day for fun at the end of our international matches, but start introducing tests of the day as well. And that's where we feel a significant match event is resulted in a significant test of the day. And therefore we we get the players to vote on what they saw, and why their reaction was so good. So give me a couple of examples. So I remember in Taiwan, Mark Whitehouse was playing a match against number five seed, and he, he got a break, and he was serving to go three, one up in the first set gamepoint to him to go three, one up, second serve. And the guy from Denmark, shanked it into the stands, so is through on up except for a late call a foot fault. So he goes from being three one up to two on still back to juice because it's double fault. So that's, you know, that's probably a bronze level test. And you can categorize the tests however you want theory of categorizing these kind of challenges around significant measurements comes from watching Andy and Johnny my son playing FIFA or whatever the games that we're playing online and they you can come in at whatever level you want and come at level 1234. And you can beginner level intermediate or gold, silver, bronze, whatever. So categorizing these tests, we categorize them at Bronze, Silver and gold. So that would be kind of a you know, Mark recovered and win the game. So it's a little battle a little significant match event that we can celebrate irrespective of the score starts to put an emphasis and a value on winning the battles the mini battles in matches, even if we don't win the war. Another example, which was the gold level example was when we were playing the US college team in the final in 2017. And the final the World Championships we'd never beaten them before they had lost for seven years. And we go in matches. We are now three two up and Jack Finnell Hopkinson, Johnny O' Mara are in a battle in a men's doubles to win golf. When the first set and we go to all in the second set, and it's sudden death choose the American first serve in federal Hawkins plays beautiful chip return crosscourt It catches the top of the net and just falls over a dead drop let cord into the chance read licky who's playing for the American slides forward racket out is only just gonna get it if he does get it we're on top of the net Omar and hot Finn Hawkins on top of NET we're as good as when the point except for the bulkhead sees a ball in front of him Oh, there's a ball and picks it up off the Americans racket umpire says player that Susan fgu smokin says a big surf down with three to down. So we go from being three to up in the blink of an eye to three to down. And we talked about in the match in the team meetings about it's not, we're not going to judge you on what happens we can judge you on your response to what happens. Because obviously players playing for Britain are nervous of letting themselves down, letting the team down, et cetera, et cetera. So they want to know what they're going to be judged on. So when you say you're not just on winning or losing, you're judged on how you respond to whatever happens in the match. So I thought we're gonna have to have that talk, because because you're in the chair as they come down to sit next to you. But we didn't have to have that talk because Omar who's held a character immediately sat down and he said, we're not going to let that bother us. Don't worry kid end of. And now and that was that and they you know, we had a drink and we had a couple of small conversations. But you know, those guys direct their own tenants and they got up and went out health serve broke serve health serve, and we won the gold medal. But that that we talk about that and we still talk about that as a as a gold standard responds to a match event and therefore this test of the day and I think that can be carried through and coaches you know, when when is your player done something they've never done before? If they've lost a certain time break and then when the match for example, what are the tests you think?

Daniel Kiernan  59:56

Very good and that one that example there's very pretty much almost the definition of mental toughness, isn't it? You know, that was the that was the bit that that they did if I share quick, quick one with you, and then you can, you can analyze this one for me and also for for the listeners. So I was in a match last week and a player young player playing very well, good high level Match five for up in the first set, you know, and tactically the match was probably going how the player on our side wanted it to go, you know, it was it was a bit of a bit of a heated battle, and always felt he maybe had the edge in terms of being able to outfit the kid. And the kid then just completely changed tactically, completely. You know, and and then Moon balled for the next 20 minutes. Only Moon balled and it had the desired effect. Because what happened was, now the player that we were watching started to look uncomfortable started to showcase a kind of body bad body language started to struggle a little bit mentally didn't adapt tactically to that, you know, it didn't didn't solve the problem. You know, it didn't take on a drive volley didn't find find ways of doing it. And then even though that set was a seven, five loss, it was it was long games. But then the second set just very quickly went went away six one. And in the second set, the boy didn't actually went back to hitting wasn't Moon balling any more. But now we've got the mental edge. And the player we were watching. And it ultimately lost their mind a little bit and, and gone away from their processes. And and I guess that will be a classic surge snowball effect that happened. And it started with a tactical change. So if you're the coach of this player that had happened to how would you take them through a journey to try and help them in that area?

Alistair Higham  1:02:16

Well, the good news is a feifer appeared in the first place. I think that's, that's important. And then I also remember something that I heard at a conference from American culture a long time ago, if somebody changes tactics on you, they're going to their plan B, because nobody goes, I'll keep my plan a up my sleeve in case I leave. And it's clearly the case I start losing. So immediately they're going to their plan D so that's good news. And then I think it's the speed at which you spot the change and adapt to it is critical. Because what's happened there is the player who's changed to Plan B is really trying it for a little while to see if it works. And they need to see immediate success. Now. If the player can spot that and it's got an answer to it and immediately plays couple of Dr volleys, there probably would that would be the end of their I'll have a go at this. If they you know, so there is an importance of spotting the change and then quickly responding to it whilst they still feel good about it. So there's that. But then there's the whole having lost the first set, actually the this what happened in the second set? And how How could your player have responded because it sounds to me like there was a it was going his way there was an intervention, a change. And then it went against him sort of classic mountain shape in terms of a momentum chart. So it's, you can look at this bit on the way up and the bit that changed. But you also need to look at how can you recover? Because that on the way down? You need to be able to do to him what he did to you. I hadn't found a way but he found a way. Yeah, well, how can you respond? But I do think it's one of the hardest things to do in sport is when you are winning. And you we always say stick to a winning game. If somebody finds a way of closing that performance gap and putting you in more of a straitjacket to actually say, Well, what I was doing is no longer working. I need to adapt to what they've done. It's difficult thing to do that. So I think he's, you know, I think I think it's one to recognize it is difficult, but I think the question is why? What was the response? Why was the no response in that second step, the same way that the boy was able to respond in the first set would be one one way of looking at it. And then of course, you know, the mental skills that stopped the performance from dipping. When the momentum is against you. It's against all of us. We all know how it feels. It feels horrible. You're running in three call your shots not working, particularly if they were working before you feel Bad, you want to see your rush cuz you want to return to what was happening before, was actually, if we go back to that definition of momentum in a peace process or climate change, you lose momentum when things start, you know things, the gap between good things becomes longer. And that's what you need to instill on the opposition, you need to take as much time to get your own head together. And if bad things are happening, you you want to slow down bad things happening and start making good things happening for you. So there is an element of, okay, take a you maximum 20 seconds between points, and the routine when momentum is against you becomes different than the routine than when it's for you, obviously, within the rules. But you still have to think about that bit longer when things go against you.

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:50

Very good. It's a fascinating subject. I'm conscious that I want to move the conversation on I don't, because I'd love to talk to you for hours on this because I think it's a it's such a it is it's an untapped area, or certainly in the, in the forefront of what we see, you know, in the in the public eye. And, you know, there's, there's all sorts out there on how to have the right flow and action on the surf. There's all sorts out there on, you know what type of grips to use on the forehand, but in an area that I'm sure everyone listening will agree is so fundamental and so important to every tennis match that ever happens. You know, we can all see it. You know, when you're when you've watched matches for a long time, you can almost feel it. You can feel it before there's even a score change. Often you can just start you start to get a bit of

Alistair Higham  1:06:47

a fudge just just on the scores. I know you want to move on down but the score is so important because, you know when I used to watch colonised on Ceefax, if you remember that or if you're watching it online, and you've only got the Scott look at or you're at Wimbledon watching the scoreboard but you're not in the stadium and you see the scoreboard change, you have no idea what's going on. Neil Neil Carlisle you know, 85 minutes 87 minutes, 90 minutes, you don't know you don't if they're attacking you don't know who's got the momentum you don't know what's happening. And this This is important to understand our scoring system in tennis which we cover a lot in the online course as well the three tiered nature of it points make games games, main set sets meet matches, it's very different from any other scoring system. And it has big implications for how we coach because you're brought to a pinnacle and you're dropped and that's the start again continually. Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:34

It brings natural natural breaks doesn't it to momentum you know, the

Alistair Higham  1:07:39

Good point is you can you can play rubbish you can be you can be winning for an hour and a half and lose for 10 minutes and you're in trouble you can be six four you can never lost one nil tune in at one the tune of 21324254 and then you win the first set you win the second set the same again 324-354-4030 You missed the Smash when you should have put it away you miss next two points and lose for 10 minutes and you're now you hadn't much point 10 minutes after you're now feeling like you're in a third set with momentum against you. So you've won for an hour and a half last for 10 minutes I mean it's crazy it's a crazy for the

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:20

That though. I think for me that bit there. And it goes into the realities of sport of the sport that Keith Reynolds is is massive on as well. And it's you go into the reality of that sport. I harp on all the time to coaches players parents know your sport. Because I almost look at that as rather than the champion who is the set and five four up. Okay, you have to understand the sport. But the challenger who was the set and five for down the match by down has to understand and one of my favorite sayings is you're never more than 10 minutes out of a match 10 good minutes will always get you back into a tennis match. And I happen to be on court side of the court When Tara moolah and it's gone down in like history. I love six love five love. Yeah, so it's Sunday and I was there. And you you started to feel it. You were like oh my god, the girls should have won that game. Oh 5-2, My Oh 5-3 My. Yeah. When did when did when did the oh my goodness coming in five, three or five, two or five? I think maybe even five two? That were there was definitely there was definitely there was a because actually, I think the player I was coaching was not the next match. But they were the next match. So So I had a very keen eye on that match because I was going okay, well if this finishes it's an hour, hour and a half until they play, you know, and so, as I started to have my eye on it, it was definitely, there was definitely, I think, a feeling at around five to, you know, and just just the nature of the way it happened. And you could see a little bit of visible tension that had come in, you know, it was amazing.

Alistair Higham  1:10:22

And that's, you know, it's, it's, it's that gap in performance again, isn't it, because it's like that, and it doesn't take much for that person to get up a little bit, you know, 10%, and that person to drop 10%, and you're starting to feel it, and people think five loves a big score, but you don't want to be five. And then it's five, three, with doubts coming into your mind. It's just you mentioned Keith Reynolds, just to finish on his point about momentum and knowing about it, he said, you can swim in the river. But if you don't understand that there's a current in the river, you're in trouble. And there's a current in the river.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:57

Very good, very good. Let me share a thought I have and bat me away. Tell me I'm wrong, you know, put me in my place. I have no problem with that. The surge? You know, and when I, when I think of a search, you know, it's it, I think of quite a large range of change in, in performance, but often, I often think it is linked to emotion, you know, so and Josh Ward Hibbot, and I'm sure he won't mind me sharing this. And I know, you know, Josh Lesnar is we had a conversation a couple of years ago, because he was coming from an individual sport of tennis, to then move into now playing a professional team sport in basketball. And he talked about how the range of emotions that he used to have as a tennis player was so not so big, you know, if he was, if he was up, he was he was right up. And if he was down, he was right down. Whereas what he's found being a part of a team sport, is if he's down, he's kicked up the backside and quite quickly establishes himself on a bit more level grounding. And if he's too up, he gets a kick up the backside, and told to come back down and he quite so his range of ways that doesn't doesn't go up to too much or go down too much, which which is, which I guess might lead to there being less surges in momentum in a team sport than an individual sport. Just a little theory, that's just kind of in my head.

Alistair Higham  1:12:40

I don't know whether the conclusion is right. Certainly the third first bit is interesting. It's fascinating, because you've got your teammates, haven't you and your teammates around you you're going to have that is the I'm not going to say team sports are easy, but they're easy compared to to tennis, because you can get substituted you can play badly and still win in team sports. And you've got your teammates to pull you up or bring you down a bit like Josh is saying there. I think there's some dramatic surges that I think if you look at American if you look at American football, and that huge surge that was in 2017, when the Patriots came back from 25, three down and it was just one way traffic. If you look at football, you can look at different periods of domination. If you watch the League Cup final on Sunday, the Carabao Cup final, Liverpool against Chelsea, there was, you know, periods of domination for both sides. It was definitely that way. If you look at the huge surge of momentum when Liverpool beat AC Milan in the Champions League final three. And they scored three goals in six minutes. So I think so I think it's really interesting about the it's definitely I would agree with it's linked to emotion because emotion can destroy your performance if you all fire your performance the other way. But I think probably there are big surges in those team sports. And some Yeah, we use examples in the online course from golf and the searches in the match play event over the Ryder Cup and the Solheim cups, huge surges. People talking about momentum, how it's switched people using momentum in that situation as well captains stacking their team in a certain way to build momentum. The good players building momentum out first. So yeah, I think it's, it's across all sports, really, and team sports. I think there's something in the nature of us being perhaps pack animals and you know, leaders setting the energy and people following the leader, whether that's in a sport or you know, fighting a war or whatever, if there's a strong leader and everybody follows their response to match events. I think they they almost take on, that's where it gets close to an individual sport because the team follows the lead He does. And if the lead is a response to the responding well, then momentum goes very often for them. And the surges only really happen when there's a poor response. And for a real surge to happen, one side's performance has to go up and the other has to go down. But that doesn't mean it has to happen. It's like a running race. If we're in a running race, and we're sprinting, a new, I kick to get away from you, and you stay with me and I kick and you stay with me. And I kick and you think I can't, I can't stay with him and you go away, I will relax and go further and then that that gap will appear that search will appear. But if I kick can you stay with me again, and think I can't shake this guy off, and my performance will go down and you might search your head because that's that mentalist sense ascendancy element to it, that's, you know, that that search will only happen if there is a double change in performance one going at one going down, which is why match events momentum match flow has to be linked to performance.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:01

Very good. Well, my football team currently have momentum, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna run with it. I won't bore the listeners with, with why, but there is, there is a game in that instance. It's not a magic thing. You know, there's, there's serious process and performance performance behind it. And I'm gonna enjoy it. I hope it's gonna keep going for Federal Way that continued for a long time. My last bit and I would imagine, I'm an I'm a parent. I have momentum shifts on an almost hourly basis with my children. You know, I love them. I hate them. I love them. I hate them. I want it.

Alistair Higham  1:16:44

I'm sure you. I'm sure you've never

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:47

Never hated them. No, it's the wrong words. But I certainly have some strong momentum surges when I'm trying to get my little one to bed, then I don't seem to win very often. But ours have been you know, you've your boys have gone through a tennis journey, you know, they've obviously you've got more than just a tennis journey. But you have been a tennis parent for for many years. You know, so many people that are listening to these podcasts, our tennis parents, you know, some of them that are just starting their journey, some of them that have been through, you know, already with numerous numerous of their, their kids as well. How was how was that journey and I know it's an ongoing journey, but how was was that as a as a tennis coach, someone who's so heavily involved to then find that if Angel boys playing the sport that you're so heavily involved in,

Alistair Higham  1:17:43

So much more difficult than coaching I mean, like 1000 times more difficult it's very, very difficult because you it's hard as a parent to be so objective and long term you are connected emotionally to it. Obviously you want the best but but you have to stand back and you have to kind of find it, you know find that sort of objectiveness but whether you're a big tennis family, I mean we've all played County County week and this myself my wife and the two boys have all played County, County County week for senior and senior level and we have lots of discussions and I think that the difficult things have been the system. Particularly the system they went through the rating system where you had to win you know some somebody playing in Hartfordshire calls a bad line call at five all in the match tiebreaker and that is the last chance of that ratings run you could have had to go up I mean all that pressure is is horrible. But you know the I think the really the good things is we have a phrase in the family every match has a story so you never you never the boys will never tell me the results until they've told me the story which always makes me laugh and I'm pleased about because a after they make you wait till they tell you whether they've won or lost but it does show that they do kind of value the journey of the match and what's gone on during the match and sometimes ends up with them winning and sometimes ends with them losing but at least they appreciate that that side but the they played a lot of football when they were younger. Both them good footballers didn't we didn't really commit to playing being a proper tennis parents so they became good players because they chose to and didn't want to hothouse them. They didn't play more than 10 miles away from Nottingham for a long time to play. They traveled further for football than for tennis, in fact. So I think it's great. They both ended up choosing tennis because it's a lot harder than football, football. You just drop your child off and it's very often taken by under the parents the match and even if they play badly, the team wins. They feel good team celebrates together, whereas you're on your own. But the other thing is I'd say as a parent it I do recognize again what Keith Reynolds has said about the value of the things you gain from completing critical thinking, emotional control, ability to recover from disappointments, time management, standing up for yourself striving for excellence, working part of a team, self reflection, goal setting. These are all amazing transferable life skills that we get from tennis as well as, you know, a social circle friends for life and some great memories. So I think it's, it's tough as a tennis parent, but when you're able to stand back and see what they've gained from it, you feel it's been a terrific education.

Daniel Kiernan  1:20:35

And you are heavily involved with British universities. You have one boy, that is gone through the British university system. You've had one boy that's gone through the US university system. And it's a it's a debate, probably the wrong word. But you know, for years and years, US colleges has been the golden stamp of, of universities of what you do. Do you feel that the UK universities are catching up? Is the goal to catch up is there? What is the aim? And what can you tell people about Great Britain universities? And why? Why that could be a good route for some players?

Alistair Higham  1:21:23

Well, it's good option. I think that you listen, there's no way we're rundown US college is a fantastic experiences over there. And you know, there's tremendous setup, I think what we're keen to do is just develop our own unique brand, and you stand in the marketplace for people who want to choose it. And I think that it's fun, it was fascinating. Have one boy go through one and one through the other. I think what the attractions of America would be America's pretty cool place to be. I think there is that I think you can get a very good scholarships there. Although I believe the agents are saying, you know, you're better off with a budget of 10 or $15,000, which makes the cost similar to over here, particularly with the loan. What have we got over here for our unique selling points? Well, I think Loughborough Bath Sterling Nottingham mix to Leeds Beckett and Cardiff, Bristol, they're all able to offer something Loughborough of course, something which is high level facilities training couple of times a day matches on a Wednesday, we've got a National League, which is broadcast by the Tennis Channel. And that level is strong level, you'd get ATP WTA ranked players at the top of that. And if the have not got a ranking now they've been as high as some of them and as high as 500 in the world previously. So the level at the top is very, very good. But then we've got a workforce development program as well. So obviously everybody wants to win Wimbledon and play professionally on the tour. Great option. But we focus on training a lot, very good competitive program. I should have said Wednesday's is matched any British universities for all sports. So you play a match every Wednesday, there's 365 teams across 100 different universities playing from October to March every Wednesday. And but the workforce side of things. We've got six coach development centers based at universities, we've got two national academies, we've got people, companies linked into our universities, and about 800 to 1000 players playing more than eight hours a week. And therefore, we want to within our university setup, we want to really have different strands of workforce development. So we've got coaching, we've got tennis development, we've got media, we've got performance analysis, sports psychology, and all these officiating and we've got structures and shall we say processes to think conveyor belts really for people who are interested in those different to get mentoring to get experience on the ground, and then develop and get high level opportunities. So we'll take some of our students with our British team, the event management group come to see how the big event in France is run sponsored by BNP Paribas the master you event will take, if there's coaching opportunities, we'll try and get coaching opportunities. s&c will try and find s&c opportunities. So they get internal opportunities, internal mentoring, then a pathway through to high level external experiences. So I think there's definitely the playing side. There's definitely the works for side. And then I think, you know, there's just the pathways through so anybody who's been to American college now, there's a lot of people thinking I'll come back and carry on my playing and do a part time master's degree. That's a great opportunity to carry on playing there's no there's there's no for the British universities there's not the same and restrictions and not the same, can't play professionally or can only play for four years without being redshirted. Over here. So you can play for years. And you can come back and play another two or three years over here and have that pretty much paid for well, all the tennis training is pretty much free in the universities here. So yeah, so it's a different, it's a different model, probably great opportunities. Now with the recent LCA changes, Phillip more pro service levels in the UK Pro League and British tour to play around the team matches to build your world King, because there's so many opportunities here to do that now. So that might be a distinct and different offer from British universities. So yeah, so that's, I think it's, you know, it's what, it's something that we'd get on very well with American colleges and American, you know, the ICA, and we have good links with them. But we're just looking to provide people with an option, and make sure people know about the option of either studying here undergraduate, or coming back and studying here for a master's degree.

Daniel Kiernan  1:26:04

You were very good at piecing things together. You know, the, you said that earlier. And that was very well pieced together and you know, in the different buckets, they're very easy to understand my challenge on it. And and please tell me if this is not fair, is my perception from the outside and I am on the outside now, is the governing body as a whole doesn't seem to promote GB universities, as much as they promote US universities. Now, that's a perception that could be completely wrong. And I can guess, for somebody who owns an academy, who is feeding, I guess, where were the feeders, to, to, to these pathways, you know, I constantly have information about US universities, I constantly have coaches speaking to me about about coming. I don't really know, or understand the GB setup well enough to be able to, with all authority say this is this is the route for you.

Alistair Higham  1:27:20

Yeah, I think it's a great point. And we're trying to change it. I do three days a week just to put in the standards three days a week on this role, you know, British universities. And yeah, it's something that needs to change and is changing. So if you were to go on the LTA website, there's an online course now, which can take you through the whole different elements that the British universities provide. So that's players and parents that can directly access that and you just tap in British universities into the RTA search and you'll find it so I'll take you through everything you need to know and and choices when making University some of the advantages for Britain's from the vantage from America things to consider. And I think that's there's that I think there is a wider recognition now of players coming through so you got good players like Lloyd Glasspool pool who's studying for a master's at lift, bro, we've got our pro black coach with Julian Cash. George Houghton for Christie has been through it live Nichols has been through that this the barn it's been through that got Johnny on marega Sterling with a very strong program with people coming back from the states to do master's degrees there. You and more being the number one at the moment. So I think you're right, I think it needs more people to shout about it and promote it. I think there is a I think if there's an area that we need to be better in a governing body point of view, it is more people talking about it more often. But also, I think as a governing body, you very often want to present a neutral, sort of BBC approach that these the advantages here. There's the advantages here. Whereas what's happening with the American colleges, you've got agents who are the, you know, who are paid, some of whom have America and title to get people to America so that you almost have this sort of a series of agents representing one sector, who are you have a finite financial interest in promoting that sector? Not not all because I think even with agents are recognized more than British university groups as well. But, you know, we need to wrap that up and make sure that people do know about it. I think it's a very fair point, and certainly something that we're working to change change. But there's no kind of one agent as it were, or six or seven or eight agents who are paid to try and get you have a financial interest to get people into British universities because actually, as a parent, you probably don't need you just need the information. You probably don't need an agent to do it. Whereas America, you could do on your own. It's not impossible, but you've probably is a bit like having a an agent to sell your house and estate agent rather than selling it yourself. You've probably just got that bit more security if you do. So I think that yeah, that's probably why. But yeah, you're right. It's it's a battle that's continually being fought. I think having the National League, which is a high level on the Tennis Channel, is a big step forward. That's happened this year, so people can see the level. I think, if you follow on Twitter at Brit uni, tennis or on Instagram, or you look on the RTA website, it's all there. I guess we just said, there's not enough people pushing it in the face. As, as maybe there is with us college side of things. Yeah, but that is a fair challenge. And I think it's some that something we could keep working on. Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:50

because I just, I just think there's a place I think there's, there's an obviously in your saying all those names, which is fantastic. And not just those names, it's something that's obviously worked well, for so many people, but we don't hear enough about it. I am I personally, I am a US college boy, I went, but I also feel that that market is getting quite saturated. You know, and I think a lot of people are now just going to America to go to America. And and not necessarily matching their aim up with with the action of what they want. And, you know, we just had a player actually sat down with me last week, and a boy from Sweden, who's at the Academy out in Spain. And he said, look down, I've made the decision, we've had a lot of talks, I've made the decision, I'm gonna go to university in Barcelona, because I, I've realized, I'm not going to be good enough to be a tennis player. I'm really passionate about the course that I want to take in business. And and and I still have the chance to carry on playing my tennis in Barcelona. So I've made that decision. And I just don't think there's enough people that are necessarily thinking a little bit more deeply about about what they want and what they want to achieve. And

Alistair Higham  1:32:11

I think that's a great point. That's a great point. And that's why they're there directly to the lto. website. Again, there's a whole course on making the decision, because some people want to be as close to home as possible. Some people won't be as far away as possible. You've got the cost to decide the finances, the tennis, the coach, the philosophy, the coach, all these things to consider.

Daniel Kiernan  1:32:31

Yeah, well, Alyssa will put I'll be in touch afterwards. And we'll put all of those links on the on the podcast show notes, you know, so any anybody that has an interest in in momentum and the courses that Alistair as brought together with his great team, you know, all of that will be will be up and also all of the information into the GB university courses, how you do it, all all of those links will be in the show notes as well. Great. Thanks, Stan. The last bit the bit that people are really here for the quick fire round. I've noticed looking at the time, there's nothing Quick Fire about me and you unless the when we get into a conversation. So so let's see this is a challenge for us. Serve or return return forehand or backhand. Backhand. Favorite Grand Slam. Wimbledon. I'm going to preempt this next question. And I'm going to take you back to 1994. And it's funny what sticks in your mind. But I remember as a just turned 14 year old, maybe even 13 year old, sitting having lunch with yourself. I think maybe John Hicks. We were in Italy. And this the topic of conversation was if you could go to dinner with any two people dead or alive, who would they be? And I think I remember one of your answers from 27 years ago. So I am curious whether it's the same answer 27 years. That is the question.

Alistair Higham  1:34:20

Oh my goodness. Well. I'm gonna go Michael Palin. And Julia Roberts. And I suspect that's not the same, but you might want to give me a clue as to what it was. I might have said the

Daniel Kiernan  1:34:37

one that I remember was it was a German tennis player.

Alistair Higham  1:34:43

Steffi Graf. Steffi Graf. Yeah, I hesitated on Steffi and I hesitated on that. I think yeah, close close.

Daniel Kiernan  1:34:53

So she was in there. So that was so Steffi Graf was the was the one I remember in 94. So sorry. Steffy if you're listening, but

Alistair Higham  1:35:03

if you are listening, we can change that decision very quickly.

Daniel Kiernan  1:35:08

clear quartz or hardcourts clear quartz, UK university or US university, UK

Alistair Higham  1:35:15

university,

Daniel Kiernan  1:35:18

indoors or outdoors.

Alistair Higham  1:35:22

Indoors you

Daniel Kiernan  1:35:24

have today, if you've said UK university if you've got an event indoors let let's all know that that's medical time out or not? No medical timeout, singles or doubles?

Alistair Higham  1:35:44

Doubles? Refer

Daniel Kiernan  1:35:45

or Roger. Roger. If you could have one rule change in tennis, what would it be?

Alistair Higham  1:35:53

I think getting rid of the warmup would say, and I think being fit that medical time I think being fit. I mean, obviously you don't want to be putting players in danger. But being fit enough is part of carrying on and being fit enough, isn't it? It's, you know, I don't think you shouldn't be allowed to go and get a massage or those kind of things. So I think, but more than that, I'd say get rid of the wall. Let's get straight into it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:36:21

And who should our next guest be on control the controllables? Well,

Alistair Higham  1:36:26

I would say sports psychologist Dennis Suarez is very good. I think if you're going to look for somebody whose work practically in sports psychology across a range, should have some interesting stories. I could suggest to this, but I would naturally go to Anna.

Daniel Kiernan  1:36:44

Let's get it. Let's get her on. Alastair, thank you. Thank you for your time. Pleasure. Thank you for your insights, thank you for your, your knowledge, you know, I, I've got a little I, when I do these podcasts when I have these talks, I have a notepad and pen. And I always have it with me, I don't know, I kind of think of it better when it's in my hand. And what I often find myself doing is just jotting something down as maybe a topic that I want to maybe pick up later in the chat. What I found myself doing today was jotting some things down, that will really help me as a coach and as a tennis parent, you know. So thank you so much for, for those brilliant insights for sharing your experiences. I'd love to pick the phone up at another time to delve into the topic even further. But top man good luck with it all. And thank you very much for coming on. Now.

Alistair Higham  1:37:44

He's great. And well done with podcasters. terrific to see you doing so well in this and yeah, long may that continue. So brilliant. Thanks for inviting me on down and yeah, love to pick up the phone anytime.

Daniel Kiernan  1:37:53

And as I said at the start, you don't want to be hearing my voice too much. If you've just listened to a two hour long podcast, an excellent episode with Alistair Hi, um, you know, I learned loads from that conversation, you know, big, big takeaways, getting down to that real understanding of what match flow and momentum mean, you know, it's not just a fluffy little thing that is out there. It's there's actually some real process behind it. And it's a subject that I'm sure if you want to know more about as your Alistair would love to hear from you. It's a conversation that uh, you'll have he's got his courses. So please do get involved in those. Hope everyone is well, wherever you are in the world. Another shout out to all of our friends. For over in Ukraine. We can't have a podcast without mentioning what is happening happening over there. We're delighted on a personal note that we're able to welcome some some Ukrainian tennis players and their families to the Academy this week. And they've traveled we've been watching our phones overnight as they've tried to get across the border. So we've got a few players. We'd love to help more. Anyone that does want to help reach out anyone that's got any Tennis Academy, a tennis club, housing possibilities because we are in touch with some amazing people over there that we're trying to get the tennis community together. Next week. We have a lighter guest. Matt Reed some of you will know Matt, some of you want but Matt Reed is really good friends and was the coach of Nick Kiryas as well as his doubles partner. He also made final a junior Wimbledon with Bernie Thomas and as a good friend of his and Layton you it is this guy that he just is in the mix in Australian tennis. He's been as high as 60 in the world in doubles. He's currently at 180 in the world in single And I think it's a it's a, it's a great guest who have some amazing stories of these high profile players that all of you will know. So that's a one not to be missed. Keep sharing the podcast with your friends. We find out in a couple of weeks how we've got on in the sports Podcast Awards, but a big thank you to you all, who voted took the time to vote. We appreciate you all. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables