Joe Salisbury & Rajeev Ram Retirement Special

Episode 304: Joe Salisbury & Rajeev Ram Retirement Special

 

DISCLAIMER: Please note we use a transcription service, so there may be some errors in the following transcript for the episode. If you can, refer to the audio for the exact quotations.

 

Dan Kiernan(00:00) 

Welcome to episode 304 of Control the Controllables. And it's been a little bit of a while since we've brought you a CTC short, but I think this one's important. It's an important tribute to two brilliant tennis players, brilliant people, and who have both had a fantastic career. And that is Rajeev Ram and Joe Salisbury. And...

 

They both have retired in the last couple of weeks. saw one of them coming, Rajeev Ram. We saw he had his tribute to him after they made the semi-finals at the US Open this year. And his former actually college coach, Craig Tiley, who's now the CEO of the USDA was there to present him. He had his family, he friends there and there was a great event. And then Joe Salisbury…

 

who's significantly younger than Rajeev. You know, I don't think we saw that one quite coming. And that's in a lot more of a low key way. Just a couple of days ago, he put an Instagram post to say that also the time has come for him. Now, Rajeev and Joe been a big part of the podcast over the years. You know, they've both kindly come on in quite the quite the early days as well. They've been very kind with their time with the podcast…

 

and they've been great role models to many. And we want to celebrate their careers a little bit. We want to bring back some clips from their episodes with Control the Controllables. And like I say, just to give a little tribute to a pair that and individuals, they've won six major titles, each four on the men's side together. They won the Australian Open in 2020, US Open, then the three-peat…

 

21, 22, 23 and went close this year, semi-finals from kind of nowhere. You know, I don't think either, well, Rajeev hadn't played a whole lot in the last 12 months. Joe took a mental health break and took some time before coming back in Monte Carlo earlier this year. And the results hadn't really said this is a team that can push for the US Open, but obviously form is temporary, class is permanent and they certainly showed that.

 

They both also have two mixed doubles titles, Joe with Desirae Krawczyk, who we've spoken to again on the podcast after she's won with Neil Skupski. But people forget that also her and Joe won those titles in 2021 at Roland Garros and US Open. And Joe became only the second ever British man to achieve world number one. And he held that position for 23 weeks. There has been more players that have done that since.

 

Rajeev won his two with Barboara Krejcikova, the Australian Open in 2019 and 2021. And he also, shouldn't forget the two silver medals that Rajeev Ram picked up alongside Venus Williams in Rio in 2016. And then in the men's doubles of Austin Krajicek only a couple of years ago in Paris. And, know, very much at the kind of twilight of his career, Rajeev picked up all of these incredible results. He was also 56 in the world…

 

his highest in singles and you know we'll explore that I think in the little clip that we'll show as well you know especially with so much being said about singles doubles and and just tennis in general these these last few weeks Rajeev also became the seventh man to reach 500 tour level doubles wins he finished his career with a doubles win loss record of 511 to 368…

 

a lot of matches, 32 ATP titles, nine Masters titles. And yeah, what careers they've had. And the first clip that I want to share with you was from a few years ago when I spoke to Joe. And I always thought it was interesting with Joe because the first time I saw him, it was in Felixstowe was with Josh Ward Hibbert and actually Lloyd Glasspool, the first tournament I did after Lloyd came back…

 

US college, I want to say 2015. And it was at Felixstowe,, first round qualies, Joshua Hibbett playing against Joe Salisbury. And I saw him and I thought, guy is athletic, this guy can really bully, this guy can seriously move. But I hadn't heard much about him. And I know he had a decent junior career, but I hadn't heard too much about him. So I just wanted to ask…

 

you know, the question when I spoke to him of kind of going from your junior career into a senior career, you know, how, how was that? And this was a little part of our conversation….

 

Dan Kiernan (04:40)

 

(*Clip from previous episode begins*) 

 

And at what age did you decide tennis is something I want to do? I want to, I want to be a player. Was that something that came to you quite early or I must admit, I didn't know you so much in the juniors, you know, so I'm not, I don't know exactly what your junior career was. You know, you've mentioned there, you've had a few injuries, but was it, was tennis your thing? that, was that where you were always going in your head?

 

Joe Salisbury (04:55)

It was for a long time. I think there definitely was, there was definitely a time when I thought maybe it wasn't. Definitely when I was younger, I was one of, yeah, I was one of the top juniors when I was pretty young. So kind of under 10, under 12, up to maybe under 14. And I thought during, during those times, yeah, I wanted to be a professional tennis player and kind of dreamt of playing at Wimbledon. But then, yeah, when I had some time off…

 

with the illness and injuries then maybe thought, well, maybe it's not for me. And then when I was at college, kind of still, I still thought that I wanted to, but I didn't maybe know if I, if I was good enough, I had what it takes to be a professional. So yeah, I was kind of questioning it then. And then I decided that I did want to play after and then even off and then kind of during the time when I was playing singles, was doubting it whether I wanted to….

 

keep doing it and then even when I switched to just playing doubles and was kind of playing on the Challenger Tour and struggling a bit for a while then I had doubts then as well so it wasn't like the whole time I was sure that I just wanted to keep doing it and that it's definitely I knew it was what I wanted to do but I didn't know whether it's something that I could do so it's not yeah I didn't always have that…

 

belief in myself. But I think one thing that kept me going was that I just always wanted to, to find out sort of how good I could be. And I didn't want to stop until I was felt like I got to be the best that I could be and sort of fulfilled my potential. So I guess that's what kept me going through, through the tough times when I wasn't sure if I, if I wanted to keep doing it.

 

Dan Kiernan(06:45)

 

I think it's so good, Joe, for people to hear you say those things, because it's dead easy just to turn on the telly and see someone lifting a trophy up and thinking, my goodness, he's got everything sorted in his life. It's just, you know, look at, look at that. Here we are stuck in this place, you know, playing this, this tournament and losing first round. And, and, and I think the big thing I take away from that, and I have this with a lot of players that I work with at different times, there is a lack of belief and, having that…

 

that belief issue and having that fear of whether you are good enough, I think is it's quite a normal thought, you know, even for someone who like yourself has gone on to be a multiple Grand Slam champion. I guess my question to you was it ever a lack of desire or do you think it was a lack of belief? So when you had those difficult moments, did you, because for me, I think they're different things.

 

You know, one, might not believe we can, but I think a lot of players, it's actually a lack of desire to want to do what it takes to potentially go on and be a Grand Slam champion or play at the top level of the sport. 

 

Joe Salisbury(07:58)

 

Yeah, I don't think it was ever a lack of desire to. I think I was prepared to sort of do whatever I could to get where I wanted to be. I think I was prepared to put in the hard work and do what it takes. And in terms of the belief, was, I always did have kind of a sort of deep down, a sort of inner belief in myself that I did have a lot of ability and could achieve some big things, but it was more just questioning, I guess it was doubting that belief that I had. So it was kind of thinking, well, I feel like I do have this belief and I do have this desire to…

 

to do it and to put in the work that I need to, but maybe I'm wrong. Like there's always those doubts. So it wasn't that I just thought, okay, well, I'm not very good and I can't do this. It was more thinking, well, I can do this, but at times thinking, what if I'm wrong? if I actually can't? 

 

Dan Kiernan(9:08)

And what about as a singles player? Did you have that same inner belief as a singles player?

 

Joe Salisbury(09:12)

I'd say not, not quite as much. I did still have it a bit. And I think, yeah, I think with the singles, maybe it was slightly misplaced or maybe, maybe that's the wrong word, but I felt like I could be a lot better than, than I was, but yeah, there were, there are a combination of things which…

 

which meant that, I was struggling to break through in the singles and to make a career for myself in that. And yeah, I decided that I was doing better in doubles and realized that, I could have a more successful career playing doubles. So I kind of wanted to keep playing singles because I felt like I didn't get to where, like I said before about kind of...

 

reaching my potential and getting to be as good as I could be. I don't think I did that in singles, but at a certain point I realized that, I want to start making a career for myself at some point I have to start earning some money. So I decided that I felt like I could do that, be more successful and do that quicker in playing doubles.

 

Dan Kiernan(10:28)

 

So when that decision was made, I think kind of end of 2016,was that sort of time, how did you come to that decision? Was that a difficult decision for you to make or did it kind of naturally evolve?

 

Joe Salisbury (10:44)

 

Yeah, it was a difficult decision, but I'd been thinking about it for a while. I think it was actually soon after I played Wimbledon qualifying and I'd actually had a good, a great win. I think the best win in my career in singles. And I lost second round in qualifying. And then think soon after that, I went out to Portugal to play a futures event. And I was out there on my own on these

tarmac courts and the like…

 

Dan Kiernan(11:11) 

 

I know them and this is, look, when I looked at your results, I was there this summer at Adana Nova. 

 

Joe Saisbury( 11:18)

Oh really? 

 

Dan Kiernan(11:19)

 

And I looked at your results and I…

 

Joe Salisbury(11:21)

 

Yeah, I can't remember the name of the place, just remembered these and I was thinking that it was like Yeah, it was like park courts in an English park.  And I lost the match really easily. I played awful, had just felt like I had no sort of motivation, no energy, no passion for it. And after that, I kind of thought, well, yeah, do I, yeah, I just questioned a lot whether I did have what it takes in singles to get where I wanted to be and how long that was gonna take as well…

 

Even if I could get there, was it, how long would it take? Would it take another five years, 10 years? Like even if I could, could get there. So I, yeah, that was kind of what kind of pushed me, pushed me over the edge, made me make the decision to, to switch just to doubles.

 

Dan Kieran(12:19)

 

So that's the, the first positive thing I've heard about Adana Nova because, so we can now say that Adana Nova is responsible for you being a multiple Grand Slam champion.

 

(*Clip from previous episode ends*) 

 

Dan Kiernan (12: 33)

I think my first apology needs to go to Adana Nova tournament. Can't believe how rough I was on them there. They host a great event every year. Maybe that's a bit of trauma I had because when I was there, it was like 48 degrees and not only was it 48 degrees, but I drove back. I watched one day the matches in the morning. I drove back seven hours to be there for the Euro final…

 

of that the Euro 2020, 2020, the one in England where lost on penalties. I wanted to be with my children on that day on that night. So drove back, watched us lose on penalties back to south of Spain, Sotogrande and then went home, put the kids to bed, jump back in the van and drove back to be back for the nine o'clock matches the next day. So sorry, Adana Nova, maybe that is me with my trauma…

 

my own personal trauma I've taken out. So that's my first thing to take from that clip. But I guess my big one that I take from that clip, which I think comes through loud and clear actually is, is around this belief versus confidence. You know, I've talked about that a lot over the years and you know, confidence can be quite fleeting. You know, it's in, we, tend to, as tennis players put a lot on confidence. I'm not confident right, right now. And I often say to players that doesn't matter. It's all, it's really…

 

It's not really anything. It's just a perception, right? You know, and it's just, ultimately all confidence really helps us with us committing a bit easier. So it's then like, okay, commit without confidence. That's okay. We've taken that away. Whereas I think belief something 

that's a little bit more deep rooted and clear to see there that Joe had belief in himself, even if the results didn't quite match up for quite a while.

 

He had that kind of inner belief and that shows also with Joe Raj again this year, like not a lot of matches under their belt, but having a semi-final win, beating Granollers, Zeballos, teams, you know, by having belief, also doesn't mean that you can't have your doubts, you know, Joe admitted to those doubts, you know, and I think all of us have doubts in everything that we do.

 

But to hear these kind of superhuman, we look at these players, we put them on a pedestal, they win all of these major titles, but they have doubts. But that belief is, that belief to the core is strong. And I think that's, that's a really big takeaway. My second takeaway would be, I said it in Felixstowe, when I saw Joe, I felt he had a perfect skill set for doubles. Then when I saw him, great volleyer, great athlete, obviously read the game well.

 

You know, and very forward thinking in how he played tennis. And I guess, I guess for me, it's like, why do we, why are we derogatory towards those skills? You know, some people are, some people are more set up to be a doubles player, just the way it is. You know, some people feel the doubles game a bit more and it is different. It's completely different to singles. Yes, it's still tennis, but it's different, you know, and it's…

 

I don't know why we have to value that skill set less than we do. You know, somebody great singles player who runs and runs and makes a lot of balls and can play with shape and not miss. For some reason, we hold that on a higher regard than a player that's got soft hands, a player that's got quick hands, a player that is able to be that great athlete, to use that athletic ability to get to the overhead, to cover the court. know, Joe, you watch Joe, some of the hot shots over the years, the through the legs, the…

 

the quick reactions, the, you know, all of those, all of those skills. I just think we should celebrate. I think Joe Salisbury is a great example of them. I think he is your classic doubles player. You know, he does so many things beautifully well, you know, by his own admission, I don't think he's had the biggest serve in the career. Obviously serves very well, but he's had to rely on his ability to with the first volley. and, and it's, it's, it's skills that I appreciate. So.

 

I loved seeing him do that for many, many, many years. And I just wish that we were able to celebrate those skill sets as much as we are to celebrate somebody hitting a big forehand or or not making a mistake from the baseline. But a big well done to Joe on everything he's achieved. He's earned the right to leave the sport at the time. Like I say, it was a little bit of a shock, I think, when it came out. I was hearing murmurs on the tour that it might be happening, but…

 

who am I to question when he does it? And I heard him saying that he's very happy in his life. Fantastic. And, yeah, well done. And you've picked, you picked the time for you, for you to go out, for you to go out.

 

And then I wanted to ask Rajeev, you know, moving on to his and we talked at the start of the pod about his amazing career and what a career it was. And what I wanted to ask him was, I always find it an interesting question is why someone has moved from singles and into being a double specialist. It's someone who was 56 in the world and having such a successful singles career. Why did he transition that over to being a doubles specialist?

Rajeev Ram(17:27)

 

(*Clip from previous episode begins*)

 

Yeah, no, it wasn't the losses at all. It was just my body. I knew in 2016 at the end of 2016, I played over a hundred matches. I great year. I got to my career high in singles and made the masters in doubles. And I just knew that if I had another one of those types of years, that was probably going to be it. You know, I couldn't train the way that I wanted to, to keep up with everything and just the amount of tennis…

 

And I knew I wanted to keep playing. I was, I was enjoying it. I knew I never gave doubles a full shot. I wasn't one of these players. I'm not one of these players who was good enough to be one of the top players in the world in doubles without actually putting full dedication to it. Some guys were able to do that while playing singles. That wasn't me. I wasn't good enough to do that. 

 

So I knew I didn't want to leave the sport without seeing what I could do in doubles because I felt like my skill set was very, it fit very well with the game and I felt like I could do pretty well. And so I made a decision sort of similar to the college one. Like it was just staring me in the face at the end of that year that I was going to play a little bit more in 2017, but that was when…

 

you when I felt like I was going to play what I could get into, I wasn't going to add any more tournaments to the schedule. And when kind of my ranking disparity became too much, that was going to be it.

 

Dan Kiernan(18:35)

 

And what a lot of the doubles guys I've had on the game, you know, Joe, Aisam Qureshiy, ou know, there's been, there’s been quite a few, Freddie, Freddie Neilsen, quite a few of the guys that have come on. 

 

And I always speak to them about this because I guess doubles was my thing a little bit as well. Getting the right partnership seems the key. And, and, I had a little look back 2018 you finished 36 in the world and that year you had 11 different partners in that year. 

 

Now since 2018, from what I could see, you've had three partners, one of them at the Olympics in Francis Tiafoe. So we don't count that because that wasn't a choice. Austin Krajicek, I believe you played a tournament with at the start of a year in Melbourne, maybe start of the year, maybe.

 

Rajeev Ram( 19:27)

 

That actually was also not a choice because that was at the ATP cup. So you had to play with somebody from your own country. 

 

Dan Kiernan(19:34)

 

So, So, so, so you haven't had a choice. So in the last three years, you've had the same, you've had the same partner and you've gone from 36 to number four in the world. You've won two grand slams, three grand slam finals. You know, it's obviously worked, you know, so I guess I want to get into your partnership with Joe because I love that partnership.

 

You know I told Joe this as well for me, you guys, well, your ranking suggested as well, you are right up there being the best team, if not the best team in the world. 

 

How and why do more doubles players not find that consistent partnership? Or is it that it's such a sweet spot when you do that it's so difficult to find?

 

Rajeev Ram(20:18)

Yeah, look, I think there's no question that's, that's the goal is to play with somebody consistently. mean, in 2018, I was supposed to play with a guy named Brian Baker, who I don't know if you know that name at all, but he was a great player. 

 

Dan Kiernan( 20:29)

 

Great player. 

 

Rajeev Ram(20:30)

 

Yeah. We made it to junior junior Wimbledon together. One of my oldest tennis friends. 

 

And I mean, the guy's body just didn't cooperate with him. And so I was, he actually came to my house. We did two weeks of training. We were all set to go and really give it a shot as two old friends, you know, trying to really make some noise in the doubles world. He was just stopped playing singles as well. you know, he called me on December 24th saying, look, I just can't, my back's not, it's not cooperating and he's never played since. 

 

And so now I'm stuck in the end of December where everyone else is sort of with a partner and I don't have anyone. So that's how 11 partners in 2018 came about was the fact that, you know, I was set to play with somebody who I was really looking forward to and it just didn't work. And so that was a year of a struggle, but you know..

 

Kind of like with the losses, if that taught me anything, taught me that I'd never want to do that again. I will stick in a partnership as long as I possibly can until it doesn't really at all work anymore. At the end of the year, I was looking for a few partners. I got to admit, Joe was not at the top of my list, I didn't really know him because he'd just kind of come on the scene pretty new. But after nothing else was going to work out or the few others that I had in mind weren't going to work out, I said, yeah, sure. Let's do it. I'd seen him play. 

 

We'd played a couple of times, but right from the get go, felt like this was something that was going to be a good thing for me. I think, you know, what do you look for in a partner? You first and foremost, you look for somebody that you get along with, you know, you get along with them. You can, I always say that the thing that I can do for my partners, if I can make him play his best tennis, that makes my job so much easier. So that's got nothing to do with forehands and backhands. That's got to do with, can I say the right thing? Can I act the right way? Can I be a good partner? 

 

And I think it was easy to be a good partner for Joe front right from the beginning. We could figure out all the 10, all the tennis stuff later on. And we've, still, we're still doing that, but that, that's the, that's the thing that I think is the most important thing. And he could do the same thing for me. 

 

Dan Kiernan( 22:23)

 

Who's the leader in your partnership?

 

Rajeev Ram ( 22:26)

 I mean, I would say we both are in different ways, but I mean, me being the one that's more experienced and have been out here a lot longer and all that, I'd say I'd probably take that role a bit more. Yeah  There's certain things that he likes to do more than me as far as maybe some scouting and some different things. But as far as the encore stuff, I would say it's on me.

 

Dan Kiernan( 22:43)

 Yeah. Cause that's, that's one, I think when I saw you guys going together, I would, I wondered whether you would be a bit same-ish in terms of your styles, you know, in terms of your personalities, you know, in terms of, know, sometimes there is that one that takes, takes the lead. Now you've, you've completely proven me wrong on that. You know, but it's just quite interesting to know how that dynamic works. 

Rajeev Ram( 23:08)

 

It's something that I've had to work on and I've had to really find in myself is to be a bit more of the energy and emotional leader. Cause that's not, it doesn't become very natural to me. So it's, you everyone has to make improvements and that's probably the thing that I've had to work on and improve the most. And, you know, but it's fun to improve. Like I said before, it's fun when you work on something and you actually see it working. It's kind of, it's kind of like, it wants you to keep going. It makes you want to keep going.

 

Dan Kiernan( 22:34)

 

And how do you guys manage because as doubles players, you're traveling so much and playing so many tournaments. And then I would imagine the practice weeks, you've got a home that you want to go back to. Joel's got a home he wants to go back to. You're in different continents. How, how do you manage that time to get those blocks to be able to work together as a team? 

 

Rajeev Ram( 23:55)

mean, we, I mean, we, we travel so much and we see each other so much on the road. And we do like we said, we, lose. So there are weeks where take an early loss and you have a whole week to practice and work on something or it's a long trip. We're on a what? Vienna, Paris. We're on about a five-week trip right now, four-week trip right now, even now at this point. 

 

We have these time periods where we can get on the where it doesn't have to be on the off time. think one of the things that we do pretty well actually is we don't spend every waking moment together. We try to take our time away so that when we do come on the court together, whether it's for practice or a match, it's still enjoyable. It's still fun. It's still fresh and all that. So I think…

 

It's good for us that we're actually not together all the time. 

 

Dan Kiernan( 24:36)

 

Well, it makes sense. talking of relationships, the other one, I guess you've lived your life on the tour. It's one thing to grow a relationship with a partner, doubles partner, but it's another thing to grow relationships with friends or develop relationships with love, with partners, life partners. It's a very challenging thing for someone. 

 

And the reason I'm speaking to you on this rajeev is I guess you're someone who has lived your life on the tennis tour. So it's not a very normal, normal world. How have you been able to develop that side of your life as well whilst traveling so many weeks?

 

Rajeev Ram( 25:17)

 

Yeah, it's definitely hard. And I think it's something that would probably the hardest part of the job. mean, I'm lucky enough to have been married now for almost six years and you know, my wife gets trial with me a decent amount, which I think is a big part of, keeping…

 

that kind of relationship. it's definitely hard. It's not normal. you said, people don't realize, you know, they think we go to these wonderful cities, which we do, but it's not for not for holiday, you know, it's for work. And the other difficult part of this job is that you never know what's going to happen. You never know, you know, if you're to lose on Monday, if you're to lose on Friday, so you can't plan on anything, you can't really plan to do anything, you just kind of have to be really good about going with the flow.

 

And so I think, yeah, just trying to be as open as you can with you how you're thinking, how you're feeling and, and, it's just like anything else, man. You just do the best you can. and I think that seems to usually work out as good as it's going to. 

 

Dan Kiernan( 26:09)

 

I would imagine it's easier to get your wife going to New York, Melbourne, Paris, London, than it would be getting her to go to Monastir to play a futures event in Tunisia. 

 

Rajeev Ram( 26:20)

 

Yeah, that would be the case. And fortunately for me, I haven't had to do that in quite some time,so. 

 

Dan Kiernan( 26:26)

Life after tennis, What’s that got? What’s that got for you? Is that something you’ve thought of? Do you see yourself as a tennis coach? Do you see yourself going on the other side of the mic and commentating? Where, any had any thought on that? 

 

Rajeev Ram( 26:41)

Yeah, good question on that. I, I'm honest, I don't see myself coaching on tour. I mean, I've traveled, as you said, my whole life almost. So I need to give that a break just for my own sanity. Other side of the mic would be fun. I would really enjoy that. I don't know how easy those jobs are to get, but I think it's something that I feel like I could be decent at. love the sport. I want to stay in touch in some way and I love watching it. love playing it.

 

So I think I could actually bring something valuable to the table and to some, some people. I think that would be awesome, but staying in touch with the sport would be in the cards for sure.

 

(*Clip from previous episode ends*)

 

 

Dan Kiernan(27:17)

 

And I love how Rajeev talked about that actually, the transition into doubles and I guess following the heart, right? I think that's a big one with us on decision-making, all of us. I think we often know the decision, but we maybe, we create narratives in our head. We're doing that all the time, but it's a feeling that we get. And our emotions are often making decisions and then we just narrate those…

 

decisions, you know, in, our own head and not following the heart. knew that his body maybe wasn't quite up to it. I love how we use the example of going to college Tennessee. He had a big decision and he followed his heart at that time. he's then followed his heart into also retiring and into the next step of his life. I know about a year ago, he was looking at starting to look into retiring. Then he won Cincinnati 1000 event last year with Nikola Mektic. 

 

And then that's kind of kept his ranking high enough to play a select number of tournaments this year. but fair play to him for keeping himself in the shape to still be performing. But I think there's real learnings in that in terms of how he's made his decisions. Obviously earned the right with his hard work and the level he's got to have the privilege to be able to make those decisions as well. So that was, that was a big standout, the importance of partners.

 

You're in that first year on the tour playing doubles, 11 different partners. It's hard. It's hard to really establish. You know, we talked about this abnormal life that tennis players have and they do, and it can be lonely. I guess one of the doubles, singles guys have big teams around them, but the doubles guys don't have such big teams around, having the right partner to live that with and do that with, I think is really important and having the connection as a person, but then having the connection from a tactical standpoint and aligning those things.

 

I think that takes a bit of doing and selecting and the fact he picked Joe, who was probably not ranked so high at the time. think he deserves a lot of credit for that. You know, a little bit like Harry Heliovara started playing with Henry Patten when he had a bit of a lower ranking and they've kind of gone up together. I always think that is really admirable, you know, in our sport in terms of, you know, since 2018…

 

Up until the point that we'd spoken, he basically had the same partner. He played a couple of team events with different partners, but just having that the ease of that, the ease of entering tournaments, the ease of knowing what they're doing, the ease of practice, the ease of not having to try and find a partner. And when people aren't stressful, you know, when you're like, what tournament am I going to play? Who am I going to play with? How am going to do that? Very hard to focus on your own tennis when you're doing that. And I think…

 

Rajeev and Joe have been a great example of that. And I just love that they kind of came back. I know a lot of the women on the doubles too, on the WTA too, reading, Salisbury and Ram back, you know, and I think that, you know, they, everyone's thought of Rajeev and Joe together. So I thought that was, that was really cool. That he talked about that. And I thought it was quite nice that it was a few years ago now, but we were already talking about life after tennis and, know, Rajeev has been quite active with the Tennis Channel over the last year or two.

 

And broadcasting, he's made for broadcasting. And he is, he's taken that next step in his career already. And I think that's quite a smooth transition for him now. I hope he does. He hope he does get into some form of coaching, inspiring others, which he will always do, but giving back so much that, he has the knowledge, the wisdom as well. And yeah, that was it. That was it. That was a nice little piece, but I mean, I, do encourage you with both.

 

Joe, Rajeev go back and listen to their podcast, go back and listen to many people's podcasts. Had Holger Rune on that was kind of cool when he was 17 talking about how he was never going to get injured. And then he's just now coming back from a 12, 18 month injury. I think it's really cool when you, kind of listen back and you, hear where they're at and then you move on five years from now. but yeah, a big, big, a big, big well done as well to Rajeev and, yeah, loved, loved having him on the podcast and loved, loved re-listening to his insights over the last few days.

 

Yeah. And then I want to share one last clip with, with you on, on Joe, because, know, British tennis legacy has been big, you know, and it's arguably got even bigger since I spoke to Joe a few years ago, you know, Louis Cayer, what he's achieved and that the numbers just speak for themselves in terms of the British tennis system. And, I asked him about that and what he wanted his legacy to be, when he did eventually stop playing, which the time has now come for that.

 

Dan Kiernan( 31:47)

 

(*Clip from previous episode begins*)

 

You know, I see it in Spain all the time. The reason Spain's so successful is that the players that have had the success is so much a part of what happens next and building on that. So whether you like it or not now, you as a multiple Grand Slam champion, you know, and in this era, I do think that we need to be seeing Andy saying it all the time that his success wasn't built on the way that it could have been and should have been, you know.

 

So is that something that you're passionate about or do you feel you're still a little bit more in your bubble with your own career? And that'll maybe be something that comes after.

 

Joe Salisbury(32:25)

 

I mean, it's not something that I think about too much at the moment. I mean, obviously I would like to have an influence or an impact on helping develop British tennis in the future or helping to get more people playing and to just improve British tennis in general. And I think obviously just the players doing well at the moment does have a big impact. I think if you look at just the…

 

the doubles, fact that there were kind of more players doing well and getting up to playing at tour level, that definitely helped sort of inspire others and it helped others believe that they could get to that level. And obviously recently there was, I think, seven or eight players and doubles players in the top hundred or maybe even six or seven in the top 50 at one point. So obviously just having more players up there is great and it helps to…

 

yeah, make others believe that they can get there. But yeah, I think there's no doubt that with these plays doing well, and I think obviously what Emma's achieved and so many people seeing that will inspire more people to want to play tennis and get involved. And obviously that can only help to kind of help with more players coming through in the future.

 

(*Clip from previous episode ends*)

 

Dan Kiernan( 33:45)

 

So he gave us his word. He's gonna help out. He wasn't so strong on it. And I think I suspect he's gonna take a little bit of time deservedly so right now. But, just, you know, again, interesting to hear how he was speaking about that.

 

And obviously at the time it was just after Emma Raducanu who had won the U.S Open. And he was kind of linking that back to Emma. And I guess what I just like now to challenge, you know, we talk about the Louis Cayer era. Know, Louis is not going to be around coaching forever. You know, and, and, how are we going to capitalize on that? British tennis is the talk of the doubles world on the men's side. You know, the system's strong. How, what is the contingency?

 

How are we going to get that out there into the clubs? know, do we have, educated our clubs well enough. Are we going to just continue that and, have this kind of flow a bit like, guess, Czech tennis does and women's tennis, you know, to be able to do this for years and years and years to come. it going to be rooted in our culture or is this just going to be attached to Louis Cayer?

 

You know, and I think that's actually one of the exciting things, but I probably scary things as well on how you do that. And, know, we know that sport works in cycles, but how do we make it? Not just, not just a 10, 15 year cycle. How do we make this a 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 year cycle that we're passing on that legacy. And I did speak to someone from Sweden the other day because obviously Swedish tennis used to have that.

 

You know, Borg, Wilander, anyway, we could name them all culty. There's there's so many Johansson. But what I heard is the Swedish, ex Swedish players are involved, but maybe not that heavily. You know, they're not at the kind of core of the culture in Sweden, you know, on a daily basis, striving that daily passion. And that's kind of what it takes. And the likes of Joe, the likes of Jamie Murray know that have retired.

 

You know, what are what is their involvement going to be? We've seen Tim Hemmings isn't a lot, you know, we've seen Andy Murray's and Jamie Murray's legacy hasn't been built so strongly in Scotland as we'd hoped that it would. And Judy's been quite vocal on that. You know, so how do we get Joe Salisbury? How do we get Neil Skupski when he stops? How do we get, you know, these players, Jamie Murray, Dom Inglot to the players that have had all of the success?

 

How do we get them a bit more ingrained and with a personal attachment to it as well? Because they're great people. They've achieved so much just, you know, to understand what it takes to be that good, standards, the awareness, you know, to spend time at all these big events. And you hear me talking about on the podcast a lot…

 

privilege of being at these events. There's very few people in the world have the privilege of being there. Finals weekend, US Open, finals weekend, Wimbledon, finals weekend, Roland Garros, finals weekend…

 

Australian Open. And these guys have, and that experience of doing that is invaluable. And I hope that can get passed back down. I really, really do. And I just want to finish, actually, on, I want to finish on a little Instagram post that Rajeev did…

 

before when he stopped. Know that everyone, we knew that he stopped, he spoke about post, he talked about it being a game. It always was a game when he started and we need to not forget that as coaches, parents and players, we play this because we love it. It's a game. I always thought tennis could be a sport for life, but I never envisioned it would make it my life. You know, there were many wins and losses along the way, but I always felt my purpose in the game was simply work to be better…

 

today than I was yesterday. Love it. Absolutely love it, Rajeev. And we could all live by that. He then went on to say any person who comes from South Asian heritage, I'm here to tell you, you can do anything you want if you commit to it. There's no certain path you have to follow. Nothing is out of reach. If you set your mind to achieving your dream and surround yourself with the right people, it can happen. I'm living proof. And in a sport that is full of elitist…

 

entitled and we're seeing that with how the ATP are currently operating. What a lovely message, you know, and there is so many people that are involved in the sport that come from different backgrounds and it's about being seen, you know, and for Rajeev to bring that the forefront, I think is really important. It's about inspiring. Let's use those platforms. Let's get these players on a platform where we're inspiring more people.

 

I'm a nobody, but I do have an accent. I have an accent that doesn't massively suit tennis in Great Britain. You know, it's it's it's a Northeastern accent. We're not known to have many, if any tennis players, you know, and I hope that my story, it's not a Rajeev Ram or a Joe Salisbury story by any stretch of the imagination, but I hope my story can help inspire people from the northeast of England. You know, it is possible. You don't need to have…

 

millions and thousands and thousands to be a tennis player. There is ways, you know, and our sport needs to be able to showcase these different stories for you to be able to see it. Neil Skupsky, lad from the lad from Liverpool, you know, with his brother as his coach, you know, multiple Grand Slams. Let's get that story out there. Let's get that far and wide. Let's get Rajeev Ram story out there. I know Joe's maybe a little bit more sorry, Joe, but a little bit more typical…

 

of maybe the British tennis story from Surrey, know, speaks proper, you know, but still, you know, Joe Salisbury has gone and not the most spectacular junior career, but he's then gone on and he's gone to US college and he's come out and he's worked and he's worked and he's put himself in the position to do that. There's there's many ways to skin the skin, cat in this sport. And we need to keep on getting those stories out far and wide. I want to thank…

 

Rajeev and I want to thank Joe for everything that they've given our sport in a playing capacity. We've all loved watching you compete. Thanks for the entertainment. Thanks for for the class. Thanks for the inspiration. Wish you both the very best of luck in the next chapter. And I hope that we can maybe get you on to talk about your careers again, maybe from a little bit of a different lens than when you're in the thick of it as a player. So thank you. 

 

In terms of my next guest we will have Toby Samuel coming on in the next few days as the revolving door happens. Two players move out of the game. Toby Samuel, fresh out of college, has moved into the top 100 in the world ATP in the last few days. It's not big news in England. You know, would have been a few years ago to have a top 100 singles player. And that shows that obviously we're in a decent state right now in the UK…

 

that we're not singing and dancing about that but we want to sing and dance about it and know Toby's someone who we know he came to the academy when he was younger and he was actually at the academy, SotoTennis Academy earlier this year as well and looking forward to having Toby on and many more guests coming your way but until next time I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables.