Mastering Online Community: Paul Gowder Is Living The Dream!

Jim Fuhs [00:00:01]:
Man, we're pumped to introduce you

Chris Stone [00:00:03]:
to the amazing Paul Gowder, the genius behind powwows.com who has grown a massive online community while still making time for 42 Disney trips with his daughter. Paul's about to drop some serious wisdom on building a business that serves your life, not the other way around. So get ready to chop it up with our friend, Paul Gowder. Welcome aboard, Paul, to Dealcasters.

Paul Gowder [00:00:29]:
Oh, thanks, guys. Saints, I really appreciate being on the you know, seeing the introduction and all those other faces and just to be among them. Hey. I appreciate it. I'm I'm honored. This is fun.

Chris Stone [00:00:36]:
We're gonna we're gonna put you on that wall. We're definitely gonna put you on that wall. So, speaking of putting things on the wall, sir, and and Jim, you know, referenced that a little bit. Congratulations on being able to put that big silver button on your wall. You got it handy that you maybe Oh, there. Oh, I can see it. There it is. There it is.

Chris Stone [00:00:57]:
There it is.

Paul Gowder [00:00:57]:
Yeah.

Chris Stone [00:00:58]:
Oh, man. That's awesome. And so, I wanted to sort of set the table for, for our viewers and for our listeners because, you know, like I said, Jeff c mentioned you and mentioned powwows.com and said, you guys won't believe what a massive community that Paul has has curated and founded. And I was like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I heard that. Right? And I'm thinking, yeah.

Chris Stone [00:01:22]:
Well, let's see. He's got a couple thousand here. He got a cup maybe a couple thousand here. So if you would indulge me, sir, I'm going to set the table with our viewers and listeners who

Paul Gowder [00:01:31]:
Alright.

Chris Stone [00:01:31]:
You know, maybe don't know what you're responsible for, and what an actual big deal that this is. So, powwows.com, by the numbers, you've the it's been twenty five plus years, that you that since you founded this. It is North America's largest Native American digital hub. Live streaming events like the gathering of the nations, which has 4,000,000 viewers. You just again, we mentioned a hundred thousand YouTube subscribers for the silver button. Congrats again on that plaque. 30,000,000 plus views globally, covering a 61 different countries. And now you're approaching 1,000,000 social media, followers across the platforms that you've got.

Chris Stone [00:02:15]:
That is that's massive. And and that's just incredible. And I know, Paul, that, you know, you've probably been on a number of podcasts and people are asking, okay, what's what's the secret? You know, like, spill the beans, right, or spill the tea or whatever that whatever that is. And I know there's really no easy button. Right? There's no sort of cheat code to all of this and and building what's really become, like, a cultural powerhouse online, you know, pretty much. But as we start to sort of unpack this thing, you know, maybe let's start with maybe some lessons, that you've that you've learned along the way. Because I think a lot of times when people maybe they have a couple hundred in their community. Maybe they only have, like, 20 or 30.

Chris Stone [00:02:58]:
And they're like, this just feels like a slog. Right? And this feels like and I think sometimes people don't realize, even people like yourself that have built such massive communities had had to go through some mistakes and learnings along the way in order to, to succeed to the level that you've had. Any anything that you could share with us?

Paul Gowder [00:03:19]:
Yeah. There's an easy button. You just do a really cool video on TikTok. You do a little cool dance, and that's it. You go you go viral overnight and Awesome.

Chris Stone [00:03:26]:
Show's over.

Paul Gowder [00:03:27]:
That's it. That's all. Right. No. I you know, the first thing I I think people need to understand, especially in in this day of fast social media growth, is that it it's not about, being an overnight success. For me, it really is a long story. It took a, it took years to get here, but it was building that community consistently, continuing to do the things that serve your community, continuing to be present in your community, creating new things or new features that help the community. Right? As long as you're community focused, you know, I always say you need to think community first and just keep doing that.

Paul Gowder [00:04:05]:
There's no easy button for overnight success, but that that's not what we're after. Right? Because overnight success can go away overnight as well. So for me, it's just been a long, long haul, and you just keep growing.

Chris Stone [00:04:17]:
Yeah. And, you know, we we touched it on on the introduction, and the the thing that I am you know, it takes a guy to get to I just turned 55 this week, by the way. But, you know, when I was when I was 25 as

Jim Fuhs [00:04:31]:
a young adult

Chris Stone [00:04:32]:
family. Right?

Paul Gowder [00:04:34]:
Or or

Chris Stone [00:04:34]:
I maybe I was just starting a family, and I thought that, you know, building, you know, building wealth or building you know, having a job and providing for your family and all of those things was important, and I don't wanna diminish that, for those that but eventually, the older you get, the more you realize the amount of money isn't necessarily as, as great as, you know, being able to to spend time with what's most important, which in in your case, you know, you it's it's very clear. As much passion as you have around powwows, as much passion as you have around the business that you built, which powwows is also a part of is your family, and that's clear. And I and and that is it's taken a while for me to learn that. So maybe what what do you what would you suggest for people that are in that that that twist of, like, hey. I've got a family, but I've gotta provide for them. And being an entrepreneur requires time and and and all of those things. What are some of the ways that that you've, you know, been able to, you know, integrate, your family into this and and be able to to remain the best father and husband that you could be?

Paul Gowder [00:05:43]:
There's a there's a lot there's a lot there. I mean, first, you know, I never when I started Powells.com, I never really intended this to be a business. It was, just a way of playing on the h playing on the web, building HTML pages, just experimenting. But it was a community that started growing, and, my wife and I actually started dating the same year I I kinda started building the website. So she's been along for the journey the whole way. I I tell people she's the conscious. She's the Jiminy Cricket of powwows.com. She's the the voice on my shoulder that helps me make decisions and and or tells me stop doing something that's stupid.

Paul Gowder [00:06:17]:
But, you know, I think that but that's really important is to your family may not be, like, a a part of your business, but they need to be on the journey with you. And as long as you you have that and you have those communications, there's gonna be times when it's tough. I I can remember, you know, talking about the Disney trips, I I can remember one in particular. My daughter was probably eight seven or eight or something like that. It was maybe our third trip to Disney. We were staying at the Wilderness Lodge, and I had something major crash on the website. And we were just leaving the room for the day, and I was like, okay. You guys go down to the lobby, you know, get something to eat.

Paul Gowder [00:06:54]:
I'll be down in ten minutes, and then we'll go get our day started. In ten minutes turns into an hour, an hour turns into a phone call of, hey. Look, guys. I'm sorry. It's gonna be a few minutes. You know, that was a real it was very stressful for me because I know I'm disappointing with the wife, the daughter.

Chris Stone [00:07:11]:
Yeah.

Paul Gowder [00:07:12]:
But the site's down. You you gotta fix it. So but those are the things that as long as you've had that communication, things yeah. You're gonna have times when when things go wrong. And and that was a tense day, because it did take away from tech family time. But you as long as you you have those relationships, it it does make it easier. For me, the other part of that was, you know, I've only been full time with powellows.com for about three years. I worked, in state government for South Carolina for, twenty six years.

Paul Gowder [00:07:43]:
Oh, okay. So it for me, this was a side hustle until just recently. And doing all those extra hours, and that's kinda where the travel came from, is is, like, if we're gonna do this as a family, right, if we're gonna make these sacrifices, if I'm gonna work nights and weekends and, you know, take my lunch hour and do the extra work, right, if I'm gonna do all of that, why are we doing this? And it's it wasn't necessarily to, you know, build wealth and to, you know, whatever. It's okay. If we're gonna do these because it wasn't at the time, it wasn't just Powells.com. I had all kinds of side hustles. Right? Because, you know, fifteen years ago, Powells.com wasn't making a whole lot of money. We're we're still not, you know, I'm not Pat Flynn or anything, but, right.

Paul Gowder [00:08:24]:
But, you know, it was like, if we're gonna do all this extra work, why are we doing it? And we've we said early on, let let's prioritize family. Let's prioritize trips, make experiences, create memories. And so it makes those nights and weekends more worth it. And when we do these family trips, we're going to, as much as possible, you know, make those cuts and, like, we're on vacation. We're on vacation. Right? Unfortunately, now with the Internet and it's on ships and, you know, it's sometimes it's a little harder nowadays to cut off. It used to be we get we could get on a cruise ship and there was no Internet, so it was it was definitely a a break. But, yeah, those are the kind of things that that we did early on as a family is is have those conversations, set the expectations, and then decide as a as a family is like, okay.

Paul Gowder [00:09:10]:
Here's why we're doing this. And so it makes it easier when you do have to make those sacrifices.

Chris Stone [00:09:15]:
I love I love that you talked about your your wife being the Jiminy Cricket. You know, and I immediately my mind knows exactly what what you're talking about on your on your on your shoulder. And Yeah. I I think it's important for those that are listening and and watching at this point that, you know, we're, you know, a little bit longer in the tooth, than a number of people who are, you know, really digging deep into YouTube and podcasting and, you know, it may be a side hustle. Right? But you just you know, it it's you never look back at at at things and go, boy, I I really wish I had, you know, built another 2,000 people on my email list. You look back and say, man, I really missed that opportunity, when my daughter was doing this, this, and this, and this. And you you know, as as as as fathers, as, as, you know, mothers, as, you know, anyone who has is a part of, you know, partnerships, has families, it's it's so important to remain grounded in that, and it's not easy. It it certainly is not easy.

Chris Stone [00:10:21]:
And I've, for years worked at at at Sony, and I that I got tied into that until I was until everybody around me in Atlanta got laid off, and I was the only person left. And they were like, you're coming to New York. And I said, you know what? If I do that, that's going to put such a strain on my family. And, I I was able to stay aboard for as long as I I could until I said, you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna start another business. And that is so important because I'd never missed a soccer match, a play. Like,

Paul Gowder [00:10:52]:
all of

Chris Stone [00:10:53]:
those things, you know, your your daughter, who you took to Disney forty two times, will remember that. And so let's talk about that because, you know, and and is is that, you know, 42 times while you're building this this thriving business, you know, I maybe there's a framework in there, but, you know, how how did you do that? Because you do have a passion, obviously, for for for the park and and that, but still doing that stuff. How did how 42 how many times a year is that? I'm not good at math.

Paul Gowder [00:11:26]:
There was one year where I think we went nine times. So what we did, because I work state government, we I had the state most of the same holidays as my daughter's school. Right? So, President's Day, Labor Day, all those little three day weekends, we would just get in the car and head down. We had annual passes, and so it made those little, four night trips or three night trips, sometimes two night trips. It made those easier because we already had the passes, and and that's what we did. You know, it was and especially early on in in my daughter's life when my wife and I, yeah, we were working a lot of side hustles, but we weren't making a whole lot of money. So, we could, you know, a one day or two days in the park was a lot easier for us to afford than going for a long vacation. And we worked up to do more things.

Paul Gowder [00:12:13]:
But, yeah, that that's what it was. It was, what can we do this weekend, you know, to make the most of the time we have? And we will do that. We did other things too. You know, we went to the mountains and, you know, went to the beach or, you know, explored other places. But, yeah, and at some point in late middle school, early high school, my daughter had the you know, I think she counted up, and she had 20 something trips. And she's like, I really wanna have at least 40 trips before I graduate high school. Alright. Awesome.

Paul Gowder [00:12:38]:
Well, there's there's the goal. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go.

Chris Stone [00:12:43]:
Oh, man. That's amazing, Jim. I know you had a question, man.

Jim Fuhs [00:12:47]:
Yeah. So so, Paul, I mean, what you've done is amazing. And so, I guess, part of my question goes to I know you live stream these pow wows. Now was that your background? Were you a video guy, or is this like me and Christie like, hey. I wanna learn how to do this. And then second, what did you find were some of the biggest challenges? Because, you know, from what I understand, when you're doing these pow wows, it's not like you're down at the, Cobb Galleria. You're, like, out in some very remote places at times. What what are what are some of the things that you've learned? And I guess, I'm sure that's been right? You got better the second time and the third time and things like that.

Jim Fuhs [00:13:24]:
How tell us about that story.

Paul Gowder [00:13:26]:
So I had no video experience. I'm I'm a a photographer. Old school, I shot Minolta cameras in in middle school, high school. Right? So no video experience. We started our first livestream was in 02/2004, and it was I actually had a part of the communities. A mother daughter called me. They were very active on our forums back then, and they called me, like, hey. Look.

Paul Gowder [00:13:48]:
We go to a lot of rodeos out here in Oklahoma, and they're starting to do this livestreaming thing. And, you know, it was a little tiny box of videos. I don't remember what the resolution was terrible. She's like, I think I think you could do that. Right? You you could stream something. I was like, I have no idea if I could or not. They're like, well, we're we're in charge of a powwow this week, you know, coming up. And if we fly you out, can you come out and stream it? I said, sure.

Paul Gowder [00:14:12]:
Okay. And I spent the next six weeks trying to figure out exactly how I would do that. And back, you know, in 02/2004, I literally had to build my own streaming servers, you know, at least dedicated servers and installed Windows Media player and server. And, you know, it was very complicated, running, like, FireWire cameras into the laptop. Crazy setups back then. And, yeah, now we're able to you know, we've got Starlink, so we are able to stream out in fields. It it's and and, places we've had while now, they have great Internet. They have they have infrastructure for but in the beginning, I mean, we would show up places, and they would have no idea what we were even talking about, let alone how to actually watch a video.

Paul Gowder [00:14:54]:
So it it's been it's been really fun to see how it's grown over time. And, yeah, we our big livestream coming up for Gathering Nations will be the last weekend in April. It is the biggest pile of the year. They get somewhere around a hundred thousand people in person, 3,500 So if if you're out there and wanna watch something just incredible, Gathering of Nations weekend is is the powwow to watch.

Chris Stone [00:15:17]:
Yeah. And for those of you that are watching, we have the twenty twenty four Gathering of Nations, up up on the screen, and the YouTube channel is powwows,uh,.com. And so and, of course, powwows.com is the central location for that and all the social media and everything else. I'm curious again. Now now we're getting into the nerd stuff. Right?

Jim Fuhs [00:15:38]:
So Yeah.

Chris Stone [00:15:39]:
When you know, now there are you are you going to each one of those? Do you have a team of people that are that are there on-site? Like, how how does that work from the from the back end perspective? Because I've seen you, like, live from your location there in South Carolina, but, like, you know, it's it's being piped in from wherever else. And it's do you have a team of folks that that you work with?

Paul Gowder [00:16:03]:
All of the above. So I do a I do a live show here from my from my office each week on Thursday nights. As far as the powwows go, so I have, myself, and then I have two teams that travel. We have a third that he's said he might be stepping away, but, looks like he's coming back. But, yeah, we have some teams, and they go out and do some of the livestreams. And sometimes I'll go with them now, sometimes not. You know, when I was working full time, it was just me going to all these powwows and, literally, I would I had a good relationship with the people there in my office, and they would let me take leave. And and then I ran out of leave, and they started letting me take leave without pay.

Paul Gowder [00:16:40]:
For years, that's what I did. And I would save my vacation so that we could actually take those Disney trips, so I would just not get paid for the week I was gone for the holidays. So now what we do is and then the other thing, before I get to the teams, the other thing we we do work with several pals, maybe four a year, that have their own team. One of them, like the Seminole tribe in Florida, they own Hard Rock. And so they have a pretty big production team down there at the Hard Rock Casino in Hollywood, Florida. So they just call us up and say, hey, we're gonna produce this. And so I use, Restream to then pick up their video feed and send it out to all of our channels. So we have a few pals, maybe four each year, that that do it that way.

Paul Gowder [00:17:18]:
But, yeah, most of the time, we're sending a team out, and we're doing four camera shoots, sometimes six, PTZ cameras. We have been running them in get really geeky. We have been running them into a livestream HD 51, streaming box. Now we've gone all NDI, so we're getting rid of that because that was that box had a whole bunch of inputs where you we could run SDI or HDMI ends. Now we're all NDI, so we we're changing Yeah. That box. We don't have to carry around, you know, a big 20 pound server anymore, which is a lot of fun on the plane. So we we switched over to all NDI, all all PTZ, and it it makes it a lot whole lot easier for us, and that's that's kinda how we do it now.

Jim Fuhs [00:18:00]:
So, Paul, with the NDI, you know, because maybe some of our audience isn't familiar with that term. What exactly is NDI? Is it, you know, is it giving you, like, wireless cameras, and what kinda range do you have? And maybe do you run into any challenges where, like, because you're, in a sense, using something wireless, the connection could be a challenge?

Paul Gowder [00:18:23]:
So we're not going the wireless NDI NDI route. We're going Ethernet. So it it allows us to put a camera, you know, three, four hundred feet away, sometimes using CAT six cabling. It's a whole lot easier than carrying a big heavy, HDMI or SDI cable. But we're able to now and and it's really cool because some of these facilities already have an infrastructure of CAT six, and so we're able to plug into their infrastructure and then feed that in, which is really cool. We've even been in some arenas where they already have PTZs wired up in the in the rafters and things, and they just let us pull in their NDI cameras. But, yeah, that's we're it's basically running on a network, and so we're able to also, the other really great thing for us, again, you know, being in sometimes outdoor or or different setups, the NDI cameras, we're able to power them through, through Ethernet, so we don't have to run extension cords and and power the plugs and keep up with all that stuff too. So it it makes us a a lot, lot more flexible, and we can get our cameras further out into the arenas and and get better better shots and better angles now.

Chris Stone [00:19:26]:
Yeah. It's incredible. I'm, you know, I I I'm I'm sitting here pulling up this stuff, and I'm like, the the footage is incredible. Like, it's not, you know, and there's it's not just, the the quality, but quantitatively, you know, going back and and seeing this stuff, it's like, I'm my my, squirrel brain is is is just going nuts right here. Like, how how on earth you do you can see some of the the tech folks, you know, in the shots, you know, kinda walking around. So you've got the folks mobile, you know, kind of, like, trying to get on the ground shots, and then you've got some you've got some wide shots. There's a lot of planning, that that goes into this.

Paul Gowder [00:20:05]:
Yeah. Let me tell you. So Gathering of Nations is a whole different animal than what we normally do. Okay. They are they are a huge, huge operation, and we partner with them to do the live stream. We're very fortunate when we roll in there, they already have a full production team running the cameras and audio, and we're talking, they probably have 40 people on that team that's doing all of that. Wow. And we take their footage and stream it.

Paul Gowder [00:20:28]:
That is not our typical setup. And nor you're like we like I said, we're using PTZ cameras mounted in four to six locations in the arena. That's this is what our powwows look like when we're streaming. Gathering of Nations, these guys, they're literally running it out to a production truck, full TV, movie production quality cameras, but they're running it out to a truck. They have a director on the headset telling the cameraman what shots to get. It it this is it that is very, very high level production.

Chris Stone [00:20:55]:
Got it. Got it. So okay. So so now so now my squirrel brain is is is is maybe, back back to center, as much as as much as it as it could be. Okay. So you you're you're streaming these things, and people can go on YouTube, and they're they're live. Right? But it they you know? Or maybe they go to your site. Right? And then they could do that.

Chris Stone [00:21:18]:
So the there's something we haven't really spoken about in-depth is that there's a a massive community besides just, you know, the Native American community. Yeah. But there's a there's a massive community that was built around not, you know, maybe the the the actual broadcasts are are one of the cornerstones or centerpieces of this, but this community has not, you know, like, you've mined this entire thing. There's there's email lists. There's, you know, like, you can go and find out if there's a powwow near you on the on the website. Like, what, what other things besides just this this broadcast have you done to help, you know, build this community to where it's at? It

Paul Gowder [00:22:02]:
in the early days, we were running on vBulletin, if you guys remember vBulletin. My friend, Juan, Joe, and I, we will sometimes sit around and reminisce about the old days of vBulletin forums and how great they were, and we really wish Facebook groups would would run like that. Over the years, I've always been community first. So at first, it was the forums because when I built those first few pages about powwows, it was people asking, hey, we wanna be able to talk to each other. We wanna be able to, you know, share powwow information, all that, so we built the forms. So it it's been over the years of of how what else can we provide? Probably the most next to our livestreams, the most popular thing we have is we have a calendar of powwows across The United States and Canada. But pre COVID, we were getting about 1,200 powwows a year listed. We're not quite back to those numbers yet.

Chris Stone [00:22:50]:
Oh, okay.

Paul Gowder [00:22:51]:
Most of them have come back, but not not all have come back. So but, yeah, we are we're probably the the main, calendar. People share them on Facebook and things like that, but we are the one repository that kind of has the comprehensive list of all the powwows. And so you can go on our calendar and search by state or date. You can even go like, if you're in Texas, you can just go powwows.com/texas. It'll take you right to all the powwalls in Texas. That's probably our number one resource other than livestreams. And then we we also do articles and and we publish some resources, things like that as well.

Chris Stone [00:23:23]:
Very cool. Very cool. So we're gonna talk about Paul Gowder a little bit. And I you know, you know, pow wows is is woven into the DNA of of of all of this for sure. But now, you or not now, but for a while now, you're you're, you know, taking these learnings and applying this going forward to other folks and entrepreneurs who want to build this. Right?

Paul Gowder [00:23:48]:
Yes. And it is I'm still feel like I'm somewhat new in this world. Again, going back to my friend Lou Mangelo, he told me years ago that that I I had something valuable to say. I still doubt him sometimes. But yeah. So I'm I'm trying to help people who, especially people who feel stuck, and don't feel like their community is growing or they don't feel like their email list is is actually doing what they wanted to do. So I'm helping people use community to continue to to level up their business.

Chris Stone [00:24:16]:
And how much of that is centered around, around email? Because, you you know, I I you I'm not gonna make you share your numbers. I'm sure it's massive, in terms of your of the size of your email list. But, I mean, how, you know, someone hasn't we all know we have to build, outside of rented land. Right? You know, we're Yes. We're going live in all these places, and now we're going live on on Substack. And Joe Dexter, go lions, go is is over there, as as we see. And that's that's great, but all of these platforms are rented. Right? Facebook just announced that, that their live streams are only gonna last for thirty days.

Chris Stone [00:24:59]:
And that's a reminder, I think, to everyone, right, that, you know, we we have to be we have to be especially entrepreneurs, especially for someone who's who's doing what Gemini and you, Paul, are doing. You know, you have this this land that you own, so to speak, with with powwows. And, email is a massive component of that. And so how would you how would you maybe, start with one someone who's starting from square one? That's like, I know I need to build my email list. I know I have I'm serving people, and and maybe I have a little bit of a community here. How you know, I haven't really I'm not a good writer, or I I you know, I don't have sort of the building blocks to create. And and I'm not talking like, oh, which email platform, whether it's, you know, or MailChimp or anything like, I'm talking about, like, actually creating a a plan. Right.

Chris Stone [00:25:56]:
That that, you know, and developing something. Because I think a lot of times, sometimes people feel like they have to create something new and innovative when they create an in, you know, sort of an email. So how would you how would you work with someone who is just kinda starting out, has a little bit of a community, has has a voice, knows who they're serving, and wants to develop that email list?

Paul Gowder [00:26:19]:
For powell dot com, email is really the heart of the community. Yes. We have a Facebook group. Yes. We have a pow a a Facebook page and all this stuff. But for me, email is where I'm able to communicate or have those one on one conversations. With a million we have 1,100,000 followers on Facebook. When I put a message out there, I have no idea how many people are gonna see it.

Paul Gowder [00:26:42]:
When I send an email, I know that I have a hundred thousand subscribers. They're all gonna see it. You know, we got promotions and all the other tabs or whatever, spam folders. But I know that my email is going to get to a hundred thousand inboxes, and I am able to talk in my emails. I I make them very personal. I tell stories. I I talk like I'm talking to a friend. It's not, I try to not make it like a brand or somebody just shouting messages at you.

Paul Gowder [00:27:09]:
I'm not Amazon, you know, just coming out with all these pictures and images. My my emails, I try to make them simple, a few images, text. But for somebody just starting out, email can be overwhelming, and and you can make email super complicated. Where I like to start with is let's figure out what it is you can offer. And it doesn't have to be new. It just has to be what is it what is your unique perspective on your topic. Right? And so for powellows.com, I one of the things that I started early on is kind of our email opt in, our lead magnet, people like to use that term, is we we have our powell calendar. Right? So my offer to get people on the email list is, hey.

Paul Gowder [00:27:51]:
Look. I will send you updates weekly about powwows so that you don't miss out on any that are happening in your state. I will help you find them. All you have to do is subscribe powwows.com/powwows near me. That that is your offer. You don't have to build some complicated ebook or this fancy PDF. What is it that you can deliver? And then on your first email, let let's not worry about what we're gonna send each week and worry about these, you know, all these future emails. Let's build out a way to deliver on that promise that you just made of delivering of sending them powwow updates.

Paul Gowder [00:28:25]:
Let's write a two or three email series, and we'll use all the other platforms or whatever however you're gonna decide. Right? Kit. And we'll we'll automate that in inside of Kit, and we'll deliver that message. That's the first thing you need to do in email. Let's figure out what your offer is. Let's write the emails that deliver on that offer and kind of introduce you to your audience and tell your audience how you're going to help them. And the rest, we can worry about later, but that's the first thing we do in email.

Chris Stone [00:28:54]:
I love I love that you said start with the offer, because I think that is a huge stumbling block for people. They're afraid to make the offer because, you know, they have this, like, are you even gonna want this? Like, and and they're they're afraid to say, we are giving you this. It helps you do this. And and you and you're talking about leading with that. And I think that that develops that mindset of of, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure I I'm I'm serving this per person. It doesn't not every email has to, like, you know, solve the the, you know, and and create world peace. Right? Where you know, and and give you a a a $10,000 worth of value. Not everything not everything sometimes I think the conversational stuff, lets you just kinda reconnect with everybody, and that Right.

Chris Stone [00:29:42]:
That that alone helps build your community. I feel like, you know, Jeff c, who's a a mutual friend of ours, he'd probably come up a few other times during the course of this conversation. I I know when I get an email from Jeff that he has crafted that himself. Now Right. Is AI involved in it? Maybe. Like, maybe he has some sort of conversation with it and, oh, and then that gives him an idea or or something like that. But when I see it, I I'm reading Jeff sees thoughts. It's not I I don't feel like I'm getting, you know, you know, funnel pounded with rocket emojis and words like Delve that I that I know Jeff would never say on purpose.

Chris Stone [00:30:24]:
Yeah. Right? So I love that you went there as well. And and so how let me ask you this. So so, you know, when you put together those emails, how on average, how long does it take you to craft one of those?

Paul Gowder [00:30:39]:
Oh, that's a good question. You know, it depends. Right? So the you were showing, my offer for what to expect at your first powwow, which is another email opt in I have for people who are kind of anxious or don't wanna go to a powwow but not sure what to expect. That's probably a I can't remember exactly. I think that's a 10 or 12 email series. So that one the initial writing probably took me a few hours, but here's the thing. It it is if you if you get it wrong or if you don't like it, these are these things aren't set in stone because we're not making a PDF. We're not making some kind of ebook.

Paul Gowder [00:31:14]:
We're putting all of this in text and email. So if we wanna change it later on, it's okay. It it's I would prefer to to get my first attempt out there. I'm I'm not quite as far as, you know, move fast and break things with Facebook, but I'm also let's not worry about being perfect. Let's get good value out there and start delivering on that promise, and we can hone it in later. We can add more emails later, let's let's at least get that going. And so, yeah, they take me a little while to write, but it's that, you know, it's it's time ahead. And then you you you get the time back on the end because it once you build that system, it continues to work for you.

Paul Gowder [00:31:53]:
And then let me give you another example. On paulgowdler.com, I have a a a video on the tools I use to grow my email list. And instead of putting it you know, I do have a couple of emails that that talk about it, but the primary primary source of giving that information is a YouTube video. So if you go to paulgoather.com/emailtools, that'll get you to sign up to my email, but then what I'm gonna deliver is a YouTube video. And, you know, we're we're talking to guys here. I hope most people watching are probably in video or have a podcast or something, feel a little more comfortable delivering this way. You can still incorporate that into your email delivery and and executing on that promise of whatever that offer is. So you can you can add video in here.

Paul Gowder [00:32:35]:
I think that's a really great way to to personalize this stuff and Yeah. To again, it it's just your unique taste. If if if somebody's coming to your website or your social media, they're not wanting to hear from you know, let's go to Pat Flynn. They're not they don't want Pat Flynn's take on it. They came to you. They want your unique background, your story, your whatever makes you you. They want your take on it, so give it to them.

Jim Fuhs [00:33:01]:
Yeah. Paul, you know, and we've talked about this some in the mastermind, and it's definitely been eye opening for me. But, you know, could you talk to us about welcome sequences? Because I think that's the other thing. It's like, oh my gosh. I've I got Chris to sign up for my email list. Now what? And I think I think it's that one of those things that we've talked about. It's like we overcomplicate it. So Yes.

Jim Fuhs [00:33:24]:
Could you could you tell us, you know, what are your recommendations to people, with the welcome sequence?

Paul Gowder [00:33:30]:
So, yeah, I'll go back to the first thing I want us wanted people to focus on when they're building their email and starting out is what is your offer? Let's deliver on that offer. And two or three emails on that. And that is here here's the value. I'm giving you what I promised you. The second, third email are going to be a little more of, here's how I can help you. Right? After they finish that is where I like to take them into the full out welcome sequence. And what I think is really cool, if you build a welcome sequence, you can have multiple offers that then feed into one welcome sequence. But let's not make it too too complex, and let's not overthink it.

Paul Gowder [00:34:07]:
A welcome sequence is really just your elevator pitch. It most of us out here will can can walk up to a stranger and tell them what we do and why we do it and who we do it for. Well, there's your welcome sequence. Tell them who you are, what you do, why you do it, and why they care. And we can change the order. Right? Maybe we'll wanna put why they care and what what it's gonna do for them in the beginning and then Yeah. More about our background later on to add social proof and to kinda, you know, prove that we know what we're talking about. But there's your welcome sequence.

Paul Gowder [00:34:41]:
That's an easy three emails that that most people should be able to to write. And, yeah, let's let's let's utilize AI. Take your elevator pitch, put it into AI, and ask ask it to create three emails, and then take that and put it in your voice.

Chris Stone [00:34:55]:
Boom. Alright. So we're so we're not anti AI here. And I I do yeah. And I do I do love that. I do because it's like, you know, people struggle with the blank page all the time, and this is where this really just kinda gets you off the blank page. Just realize that anything it's it's spitting out to you might be lying to you. Right? Or it might not be in your voice.

Chris Stone [00:35:18]:
And, you know, our pal, Dave Jackson, who all three of us, know, school of podcasting, shout out to, school of podcasting. He's like, do you wanna know the best prompt I have? And, of course, everybody's like, yes. You're like, you're Dave Jackson. Tell us your your best prompt. He goes, it's make it better. So so he'll get something, and he'll just say, make this better. And he said, nine times out of 10, it's, like, absolutely better. And he says, again, you know, you're adding yourself in in the human loop, and and I I love that you went there.

Chris Stone [00:35:53]:
So this is this is incredible that that you've learned all this stuff, but, you you know, your your batting average is not a thousand. Right, Paul? So so it you know, over, you know, '26, '20 '7, however many years throughout this thing. And let's stay on email here for a second. What are the mistakes that maybe you've made or that you see other people are making or the people that you're working with? What are their what are the mistakes that they're making that they need to avoid? Either they're making them right now or you can tell them, hey. Don't do this when when you start, you know, like, creating after they've they're creating these welcome sequences, or maybe it's too late to to do that at this point. They're like, maybe they're doing something else with their email lists that they should be avoiding.

Paul Gowder [00:36:39]:
The biggest mistake I see people make when they're trying to grow their email list is that they don't ask for email. Let's go to anybody's website out there who spent hours making their front page this beautiful, great, flowing thing that answers all the questions, has a nice hero image at the top and tells them what the problem is they're solving. And then at the very bottom in the footer is something that just says sign up for my newsletter. I think that's the biggest mistake people are asking for is they don't ask for the email, and they're not giving a compelling reason why to sign up. I've I've audits audited so many people's e or websites, and that's exactly what happens. It is they don't ask for email. And then you can use tools like if you go to that paulgander.com/email tools, one of the tools I love is this is this thing called Grow that Mediavine put out, and it will put your opt in automatically in WordPress. It will just insert it into your article and make it nice and pretty.

Paul Gowder [00:37:31]:
And you can even do complicated things like making it show for different WordPress categories, different ones. Anyways, it's so easy now to get an email opt in on your WordPress pages. Please do that. That's number one. Two, let's talk about podcasters and TikTokers. Please. How many times have you heard on a podcast? The call to action is, Hey, go like, and subscribe us on iTunes, on, on Apple Podcasts. Make sure over on Spotify, you click the, you know, click whatever.

Paul Gowder [00:38:00]:
And then on YouTube, hit the thumbs up button and make sure you click the bell icon. Oh my God. The litany of call to actions that we have on these podcasts is crazy. Right? The call to action should be whatever it is that offer we created that we're going to put on our website. That's your podcast call to action Is and, like, the one I use on powwow.com is like, hey. Are you a first time visitor? If are you nervous about going to your first powwow? Are you worried about what what to bring to do? Just head on over to powwow.com/powwow10one. I'll give you a free email series that'll tell you everything you need to know before you go to your first pow wow. That's a podcast call to action.

Chris Stone [00:38:41]:
Okay. I you know what? I'm glad these things are recorded, and I don't have to sit here and scramble and and and write notes like crazy. Because, you know, the number one problem, I'm raising my hand. Guilty as guilty as charged on castinghead.net. Absolutely. And, of course, I just went to powwows.com/powwows10one. It redirects me to a spot on your website, which is fine because you're using redirects, which is absolutely smart. You're right about podcasts in terms of, like, again, back to the rented land.

Chris Stone [00:39:14]:
Why would you send someone to enlist 17 different podcast platforms that they might be able to, you know, just have them go to one spot. And when they get to that spot, you're delivering what they want, and they can choose where to go. Right? If you say, hey, we're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and then name, you know, one or two. It doesn't matter. No one's listening after the first slash or the first dot. So just tell them one place to land. I love that. I love that concept.

Chris Stone [00:39:41]:
It's why we are big fans of PodPage and why we why we just say, hey. If you wanna go to our podcast, here's where it is. Right? And if Right. All things and for those that are just listening, because we do repurpose this into, an audio podcast, you know, we're we're popping the stuff up on the screen. And all of these things that Paul's talking about is are in the show notes below. So if you want to, you know, go to the email tools that Paul's talking about, that he's, that he's mentioning all of these links around there. So if everybody right now is like, what did he say? I gotta, I'm trying to write this stuff down. We've got it all in the show notes.

Chris Stone [00:40:18]:
All the URLs are, are everywhere in all the tubes. Maybe not in Substack yet, Jim, because we haven't figured out how to how to how to tough that stuff there. But we will, ladies and gentlemen. And, god, I'm getting I'm getting tons of stuff already. This has already been tremendously valuable. And for those of you who are on, Amazon, we've got a few people on Amazon, and we also do have, our friend over here, Sue Ann Babitz, who says right mix for business by Sue Ann. Great show, guys. Thanks.

Chris Stone [00:40:49]:
Great Yeah.

Jim Fuhs [00:40:50]:
We've got, we've got Mitch Jackson watching from Substack. Doctor Hicks is there. We've got ROKO Radio Sports and, Marco Novo. And and I will say ROKO Sports, love the, funnel pounded with rocket emojis. That's the line of all lines right there.

Paul Gowder [00:41:08]:
Yes.

Chris Stone [00:41:10]:
Yeah. Stick around. I got more, like, knucklehead, lines for you. But, yeah, Paul, man, this is, this is going yeah. Go, please.

Paul Gowder [00:41:20]:
So I wanna go back to a couple of mistakes too, for you too far further. Here's here's two stories that have happened to me where I I feel like I I messed up. One of them, I I kind of had a backup, so it was okay. But the first one, when I had the Powells.com podcast in the early days gosh. I don't remember. This is maybe, what, six, eight years ago when Facebook had podcasts, and Facebook had a podcast player. It was fantastic. I did nothing for my podcast except record it.

Paul Gowder [00:41:48]:
And because I had a big Facebook page, Facebook would take my podcast and send it out. I was getting 15 to 20,000 downloads per episode doing nothing. Right? Facebook doesn't have a podcast player anymore. Nope. I lost all of those downloads and was never able to recover anywhere close to that many downloads ever again. And I didn't do a good job of making the call to action, getting them somewhere else other than Facebook. Another one just this happened last November at a Facebook group where we, let people buy, sell, trade different types of Native American regalia or craft pieces or whatever. We had 85,000 people in that Facebook group.

Paul Gowder [00:42:31]:
And Facebook removed it overnight, gone. It's non appealable. The whole thing's lost. Now I had been making one of the questions to join the Facebook group. Hey, if you wanna subscribe to our email list, give me your email. And I have a tool that goes in and grabs those automatically puts them into my kit. So I did have a a bunch of the people from there. But, again, we don't know what these social networks are gonna do.

Paul Gowder [00:42:55]:
Right. Please don't build your whole business on a social network without having, your email. There's there's only two things that we can control right now that we can own, and that's our RSS fee for our podcast and our email list. So make sure you grow both of those and control them.

Chris Stone [00:43:11]:
God. That's so good. That's so good. And, I'm I'm glad that you were vulnerable there in sharing that. Yeah. Thanks, Zuckerberg. You know, I I it's it's so true. And I think right now, there's a there's a real battle.

Chris Stone [00:43:26]:
I don't know if battle's the battle's probably not the right word, but there's a lot of people that are, you know, standing on a hill and talking about RSS feeds, and it's for this reason. Right? So, you know, YouTube is fantastic platform, and we love it. And, you know, there is, you know, revenue sharing and AdSense, and there's a lot of community things that you can do to build there. And obviously, you've you've built, you know, you got you got a silver plaque behind you and you're, you know, above above your left shoulder. And so, that's all well and good, but it still is another platform that you don't necessarily own. And, and so I think if if you you you kinda keep that mindset, you know, build you know, I'm gonna use a biblical reference. You know, a wise man built his house upon the rock, you know, and the foolish man built his house upon the sand. And I think that's that we have to keep we have to keep all of that in mind, and and being able to build that that that content on that rock, on that on that.com or dot whatever, that you've got.

Chris Stone [00:44:25]:
And and your RSS feed, your podcast, is is important. And so if you say, hey. I'll just launch a podcast on YouTube and all you know, how much sand is in that foundation? Right? We don't know. And I think it's important to

Paul Gowder [00:44:40]:
We have no idea. Yeah.

Chris Stone [00:44:44]:
So okay. Here's here's here's a little, like, this is the, Chris gets free consultation, comp, part

Paul Gowder [00:44:52]:
of the show.

Chris Stone [00:44:52]:
No. This is, this has been you know, you're getting free consultation for everybody who's, who's doing and for those of you who are watching, go to Paul Dowder Paul Gowder dot com. The other thing is PaulGowder.com/email tools. Is that right?

Paul Gowder [00:45:07]:
Yes.

Chris Stone [00:45:07]:
Okay. Email tools as well. But I you know, the other thing I noticed with a lot of the content that you're doing is you do giveaways. Right? So you get you get items to do giveaways, and you've got a ton of partners that you work with, there. So I wanted to talk about your relationship with relationships with companies and brands as a part of of what you do because I I you know, that's not a small thing. You know, you're you're focused on that community. So let's talk about Let's talk about how you how you work with brands, how you make decisions with with brands that you're you're either approached by or that you're approaching, and maybe some, you know, some how you how you sort of orchestrate your giveaways, in in in serving in your community in that way.

Paul Gowder [00:45:54]:
So I actually have a big box. I did a live unboxing last night of of the prizes from our latest giveaway. And, you know, when I talk about giveaways, a lot of people I mean, look at look at this. A lot of people talk about how giveaways are not effective. Please focus. There we go.

Chris Stone [00:46:10]:
There we go.

Paul Gowder [00:46:11]:
These these things are gorgeous.

Chris Stone [00:46:13]:
Oh, man. Jim, you'd look good with those hanging from your lobes.

Paul Gowder [00:46:18]:
No? So this I'll give a a free plug. This is eighth generation. A lot of people say that giveaways aren't effective, and I think one of the biggest failure points of people not having effective giveaways is the prize. And so you have to pick a prize that relates to your audience. Please don't give away, you know, just like a an iPad or, a Disney gift card. Right? Those things aren't gonna work as everybody in the world's gonna want them, and they're not necessarily your audience. And Mhmm. If you're gonna use if you're gonna use giveaways to grow your audience, it needs to be your audience and not everybody's audience.

Paul Gowder [00:46:50]:
So I, you know, I work with a few brands. I work with eighth generation who's fantastic. They have, an office up in Seattle. They actually invited us up. We got to go tour their factory in their office a couple years ago, which was really, really cool. And they've been partners with us for a long time. They they do blankets as well as jewelry and other things. They're all, designed and made by Native.

Paul Gowder [00:47:09]:
It's a Native owned company. So it's a really cool group to work with. And we have three other partners too. And and that makes the giveaways really something special on our website because we do have prizes that that resonate with with our audience. And, so for me, I use giveaways to to grow our email list, but also to engage our existing audience and and kind of reward them. But also part of the business model of powell.com is is advertising. That's that's one of our biggest ad, revenue sources is getting people to our website, getting more traffic. More traffic means more ads, which means more revenue.

Paul Gowder [00:47:46]:
So we use the giveaway too to once we get you on our email list, we're gonna drive you back to the website, and the giveaway is a great way to keep generating traffic. And you're talking about redirects. I use the same URL every month that we do giveaways, powellows.com/win. Really easy. And so I just change whatever on the back end, whatever this month's giveaway is. Smart. So right now, we're running a giveaway for kicking off powell season and celebrating the the twenty twenty five powell season. And so you go to powwow.com/win, and you could enter there.

Paul Gowder [00:48:14]:
It's really, really cool, effective. For podcasters, one of the cool little twists I do for podcast or for live shows like this, I use a piece of software called ViralSuite. It lets me upload a spreadsheet of, like, random numbers. And so on a podcast episode, I will give out a a code of numbers or letters, and only the people listening or watching that show get that code and it gives you an extra 10 or 20 entries into that giveaway. It's a great way to get your viewers and your listeners back to your giveaway because it feels a little more exclusive and you can, you know, you can hide them on the website. You can do other things. I I like I give one to eighth generation. They hide it on their website as well.

Paul Gowder [00:48:54]:
So it's a really cool way to, again, make it a little more fun, but also get your podcast and video listeners back to your giveaway.

Chris Stone [00:49:02]:
Wow. That's that's pro tip right there. I mean, ViralSweep.com and the integration, I mean, I can't I'm not gonna be able to read all these integrations that it has. Yeah.

Paul Gowder [00:49:13]:
This is

Jim Fuhs [00:49:13]:
some good stuff. Incredible.

Chris Stone [00:49:15]:
That's a that's a massive pro tip. Good stuff. Jim, I know you had a you had a question you wanted to ask. I'm sorry. I I I skipped over you on that one. No.

Jim Fuhs [00:49:25]:
I just I

Chris Stone [00:49:26]:
I I get I talk too much. I'm sorry. I'm I'm gonna shut

Jim Fuhs [00:49:28]:
up here

Chris Stone [00:49:29]:
for a minute.

Jim Fuhs [00:49:29]:
You you ask good questions, Chris, and I've been keeping up with our our, our Substack, Substack fans. We've we've, got a nice, nice showing over there for, you know, really just not not even really announced in advance sort of thing. We just decided, hey. Let's give it a try. But, you know, one of the things, you know, Paul, that we've also talked about, it's like like, you run Facebook ads. Obviously, like Chris talked about earlier, it's been a challenge. But where where do you see, like, when you're first starting out? Like, how I mean, I guess, really, right, it's about the email. But what if I feel like, well,

Chris Stone [00:50:06]:
I don't really know what I should

Jim Fuhs [00:50:08]:
be, you know, giving to people. Like, how is this making me money, or am I just sharing information for the sake of sharing information?

Paul Gowder [00:50:17]:
That can be that can be a struggle. Right? So let's let's back up a little bit further. Whether it's email or social media, let let's make sure we have our our business plan and our our revenue source figured out. So, again, for me, it's on powellows.com, it's driving traffic is is where we're gonna make our money. And we also have some digital sales. We have our live streams. We all that other stuff feeds into that as well. But once you kinda have that at the email, you know, I I hear some email experts say for every dollar you spend, you can get three to five back.

Paul Gowder [00:50:47]:
So if you can, you know, if you wanna run a Facebook ad and collect, leads, that way you can do that. I find one of the like, for growing PaulGatto.com, my coaching business, I think one of the best ways that I've found so far is, a couple of things. One, Kit has a recommendation network, which is really, really cool. It's free to use. But two is I just show up and give value in different places. I'm very active in a few, marketing online entrepreneur Facebook groups. And I'm not in there going, Hey, please go to PaulGuider.com/emailtools and sign up for my, I'm in there answering questions and talking about how I use email. And then you'll organically get people that'll go, you do what now? Tell me how you did that.

Paul Gowder [00:51:31]:
And so those will lead to other conversations that may lead to getting clients, but, I know there's there's lots of people that talk about that, you know, spend part of your day going and answering questions and being active on social, that's gonna, that's gonna lead to growing your email list, growing your business. And it's also a good way too of figuring out what value you actually bring is just being out there. And you'll start to figure out what makes you different, what your different background is, because you'll have if you say something in a Facebook group and it's not good, you'll hear about it. If it's good, you'll hear about it too. Right? It's it's instant feedback.

Jim Fuhs [00:52:06]:
That's

Paul Gowder [00:52:06]:
so true. Facebook groups are brutal. Right? So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's I love doing that. It it's really, really fun. And and you find out really quickly what it is that you bring to the table.

Chris Stone [00:52:17]:
Exactly. And it's it's kind of a way to to to go through those reps of helping people online too. Right? And

Paul Gowder [00:52:24]:
Yeah.

Chris Stone [00:52:24]:
Not only that, but it's just being a good human being. Right? I I just like, you know, it's it's helping people in in you know, going through the motions. And you're you're right. Like, you're not going in there intentionally going, okay. I'm going into this group. I'm gonna answer a bunch of people's questions so that I can get at least x amount of email subscribers out of it. Like, there's

Jim Fuhs [00:52:44]:
not Right.

Chris Stone [00:52:45]:
There's no intention of of doing that. You're going and you see somebody's got a problem. You're like, I had that problem seven years ago when I when I did this this certain thing with my email. So I'm gonna give this person a tip because seven years ago, somebody else gave you a tip. Right? And and I think that's it it's paying it forward. It's, you know, whatever, whatever crazy knucklehead thing that I can think of, like, rising tide lifts all ships, whatever. But speaking of the rising tide, you brought your fan club here, and we gotta we gotta recognize Sean Robertson.

Paul Gowder [00:53:14]:
Hey, Sean.

Chris Stone [00:53:15]:
Is it Roberson or Robertson? You know, I always get names wrong, but Sean, what is up? Thanks for joining us, over on Facebook. And then Kira has some wonderful things to say. Kira says, I think Paul has such a great system of testing things on organic and paid social and then optimizing what works. Yeah. I can't believe the amount of value, that that you bring to your so

Paul Gowder [00:53:39]:
Paul

Chris Stone [00:53:39]:
Gowder's community as well as the the powwow's community. And this has absolutely flown by, like the best shows are the ones that I'm like, dang it. I gotta, I gotta end this thing, but I, you know, before we end, Paul, I wanna. I definitely want to roll this over to you to give sort of the last words and encouraging our audience. And, you know, I wanna encourage anybody here before we, before I I I give the mic over here to to Paul. Go to paulgouder.com, and check out what he's got going on. And PaulGowder.com/podcast, as well. Paul has an email, that will help you, or a, you know, paid email that will help you as well.

Chris Stone [00:54:26]:
That link is in the show notes. It's powwows.dealcasters.live. That's something that, that Paul has, has allowed us to share, here on this as well. And, of course, the email tools, which is paul goader dot com slash email tools. Paul, I'll I'll roll it over to you as, our man, Rich, Graham says you always bring it. So, and and of course, Sean says the only reason I have an email list is because of Paul. So, I'll just roll it over to you, Paul. Let let the people know, what they should be thinking about going forward, man.

Paul Gowder [00:55:03]:
Yeah. Thanks, Sean, and and Kira for being here. I appreciate that. Yeah. So starting email, starting community, it can be very daunting whether you, you know, you have five people on your list or 10 or a hundred. It's continue to be community first focus. Serve your audience. Be present.

Paul Gowder [00:55:22]:
Be part of the audience. The same thing I was talking about was showing up in Facebook groups and giving value. Be in your own community adding value and answering questions and doing those things. It it is slow, and sometimes it takes a long time to see any real growth. But say you have 10 people on your list. If you had 10 people in your living room and you got to talk to them directly, you'd be pretty excited. Right? So let's not get get, you know, overshadowed by big numbers and thinking some of these vanity metrics you have to have to be successful, having 10 people on your list can be super effective depending on what your business model is. So start start just adding value, be community first focused, and it will go from there.

Chris Stone [00:56:07]:
Outstanding words, Paul. Thank you for joining us. And, you know, everybody, you just gotta remember, creating a community and creating a great email list in ain't as hard as you think.

Jim Fuhs [00:56:20]:
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Jim Fuhs [00:56:57]:
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