#162: Mark ´Beef´ Taylor – Supporting Ash Barty

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 162, of Control the Controllables. And today's guest has played a massive role in the career of the great Ash Barty, who unfortunately, age 25 has retired from tennis a few weeks ago shocking the tennis world, and to get Mark Taylor on to the podcast so soon after that, to share his insights, to share his stories, to really find out what it's like to work with the amazing Ash Barty was was incredible.

Mark Taylor  00:45

Everything that you kind of see on TV is pretty much how she she lives her life very, very, very low key very low, very high standards, but very low, low demanding and very understanding of you know, it wasn't just myself who was employed by Tennis Australia physio team. We all we obviously all had other other things to do. And she was always very professional, very understanding of that. Yeah, I literally couldn't speak highly of her

Daniel Kiernan  01:10

of course, that's not all that Mark beef Taylor, and you'll find out why he's called Mark beef Taylor as well. You know, he worked at the LTA for many years. He's a big part of Tennis Australia. He's a great guy. He brings amazing stories, amazing insights, and is another brilliant controller controllables guest, I'm going to pass you over to Mark beef Taylor. So Mark Taylor, big welcome to Control the Controllables how're you doing?

Mark Taylor  01:39

I'm good. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.

Daniel Kiernan  01:43

It's great to have you on and, and as we're going to go into your store. I do think a starting point, though. 2022 what year that has been for you, you know, starting starting the year, you know, as part of that a big part of the Ash Barty 2022 Australian Open title. And then a few weeks later, the retirement that shocked the tennis world. How's how's that few months been for yourself?

Mark Taylor  02:12

Yeah, so I guess Yeah, the start of the year was was pretty unbelievable. I guess first started my, my kind of role. I was never fully employed by Ash. So I work with Tennis Australia, as the head of physical preparation physical performance. So my January's generally look, obviously, you know, very eccentric, but also Yeah, the rest of the pro guys and girls that I work with and some coaches that I kind of I kind of manage beyond that so they're always very very busy. Yeah, I can we obviously started in we started in Adelaide for for kind of fell into place there. She played great winning singles and doubles. Had a really good preseason actually, before that, obviously. Yeah, singles and doubles. Unbelievable. And then, yeah, things just kept on just kind of coming together. And, and she just, yeah, just kept on winning in in Melbourne as well. It's always quite fun. Like, yeah, she's she was never wanting too much of my time. So we had a, we have a really good system, or we had a really good system around kind of how I would spend my time between her and the other, the other pros I work with. So yeah, we'd kind of pretty much just meet up every day at Melbourne, go through the same warm up the same fun and games that probably some people saw there's a little bit of cricket played. And normally, as an Englishman, I'm normally the butt of the joke. And yeah, she would call me out three or four times in the warm up. And, yeah, I'd have the piss taken out with me. And then we crack on and warm up. And then yeah, it felt very, it was great fun, but it felt like just another day at the office to be honest. And then obviously, as we kind of went through, it just got better and better. And it just kind of it did just feel like it was all kind of falling into place. And the way that she won in the end was yeah, it was a cool way to win, wasn't it to come back from incredible five one down in the second and win it that way. And it was? Yeah, it was a hell of a hell of a couple of weeks.

Daniel Kiernan  04:14

And I think it says that quite simple story, I think tells us a lot though because, you know, the things that jumped to my mind. You know, we're talking about mean three time Grand Slam champion world number one. And she's not demanding that much time from an S&C Coach, you know, you i We have 1011 year olds at the at the Academy here in Spain, who are almost demanding like a one on one. Essence, s&c setup and almost the humility that seems to you know, be at the core of everything she does. It's not just what we see on TV. It's actually how it is. No, it

Mark Taylor  04:57

really wasn't. It was. Yeah, everything that you kind of see on TV is pretty much how she she lives her life very, very, very low key very low, very high standards but very low, low demanding and very understanding of you know, it wasn't just myself who was employed by attend Australia, her physio team. It was Guy based in Brisbane and our lead physio in Melbourne spent a lot of time with her. We all we obviously all had other other things to do. And she was always very professional and very understanding of that. Yeah, I literally couldn't speak it, I think it's a really good model for people to understand as well. And I think it's important to probably get that out there that you can be the best in the world. And as long as you manage your time and you manage your energy and and you have great communication, and that's what our antis had to be honest, like they always planned very, very well. We always kind of knew where we needed to be. Even little things like just sending through schedule for the next day. Here's my practice times, here's my immediate times, here's everything I'm going to do. We actually got into a bit of a habit of sending emojis that kind of meant different things for different different parts of the day, in terms of warming up and things in and she would just lead that. And yeah, it was very much like obviously, she wasn't directly my boss in terms of employing me but in terms of her leaving the ship, her antis Ross leading the ship and, and the rest of us. Yeah, we just played our part, to be honest. And

Daniel Kiernan  06:22

in terms of in your role at tennis, Australia, I guess best practice, if you've got your, your superstar who acts in such a humble way? Have you found that it's been then easier to start pushing that down down the chain?

Mark Taylor  06:40

I think so. I think definitely with the players who are based in Brisbane, we have a number of, of younger female pros based in Brisbane and I think they obviously spent a lot of time around ash and around myself in training and tournaments. And they they're all very similar characters like they're all extremely humble. Whether it's a Queensland I think it's a bit of a Queensland thing as well. I haven't found many Queenslanders with a big ego. Honestly. I think that's a really good trait of a lot of Queenslanders, like Johnny Millman would be the same. James James duck with his from Sydney wouldn't be wouldn't want me to say that. But yeah, a lot of a lot of those guys. And some of our younger female professionals are very similar, very unassuming and very small egos, makes it quite easy to work with. I mean, one thing we do, I tried to kind of preach and tell the story of is how each professional kind of is the CEO of their own business. And they should be and you know, the model that Ash kind of employed there with, you know, just great communication, letting the team know where she's going to be what her what she might need from us. I tried to encourage every younger Pro or, you know, older Juniors that I work with, that's kind of the main space I work with. I try to encourage them to run that same kind of model. I class, myself as an advisor or a colleague to probably young pros. I just stole that from someone who works in the NBA, I thought was a really good analogy. Yeah, I'm not I'm not leading them. There. They're leaving their own ship. And I'm there to support and I think that's how, that's how it should be. And I'm looking for them to probably take the lead with that. I'll have my ideas on schedule and on direction. But it should be, it should be a collaborative kind of group thing. And that's exactly how it was with Ash. But

Daniel Kiernan  08:25

I think that also says a lot about you, and, and the security that you have in yourself, because one thing I've certainly seen over the last 1520 years, is when younger S&C coaches come in, they sometimes want to just overload and throw everything out there that they've learned and dictate and play that role. Whereas the successful ones that I've seen, certainly in the sport of tennis, you know, Matt Little jumping to mind as one seem to seem to obviously you guys know your stuff from a knowledge standpoint. But you're able to build relationships and play and play those roles extremely well as well. And so how do you I guess in your position, are you mentoring the young s&c coaches to come through as well? And is that something that you is close to your heart? I

Mark Taylor  09:22

am Yes, I lead the Alita team at our national tennis academy and our kind of pro space strength conditioning coaches. Yeah, I don't know how good a job of it I do. To be honest, I try to kind of give as much information as I can. But yeah, I yeah, I tried to just kind of live what I do, and then kind of hopefully hope it rubs off. I probably do a better job of actually articulating kind of the way I've done it potentially but I also see myself I do see myself still in the development phase. To be honest. I don't see myself as an elite coach. It's probably something I struggle with a little bit Even doing things like this, honestly. Yeah, I just see myself as kind of doing my job and kind of go from there. But I mean, don't get me wrong. Like when I was younger, I was probably in that same position as well as kind of coming in and going, Look, this is this is what I know. And this is what we should be doing. I was actually back in England a couple of weeks ago, and I caught up with Louie Cayer, one of my mentors when I was younger, and we were talking about a conversation or let's call it was an argument, an argument that we had when I was a young coach at the LTA at 25 Maybe. And it was my way I knew how to throw a med ball. Louis didn't know what he was talking about. And yeah, I was wrong. So definitely, I actually do I do tell that story to some of the younger coaches around you know, Louie was yeah, he wasn't young then was he but via his own admission, he's an older and experienced very experienced coach and he's probably the coach I've learned most off to be honest,

Daniel Kiernan  10:53

if if there's one person not to argue with, about something knowledgeable.

Mark Taylor  11:00

And I learned that pretty I learned that pretty quickly. But it actually Yeah, we had a really good laugh about it a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, we have we had a coffee and we had a chat about it. It was it was brilliant. And kind of it was a really big lunch. It was pretty light bulb moment for me, to be honest. Yeah, well,

Daniel Kiernan  11:17

he still is. So like I said, before we started your episode 163 of this podcast and you know, some of the names that have been on like world number one, he goes beyond you know, Nick Bolletieri, you know, those those jumped to mind, but so many massive names. The most downloaded episode is still Lucaya. And, you know, ultimately, I think people can just sit and listen to him. My last quick thing before on on Ash before we don't circle around it and go back to the start of start of your career, because I think it's a fascinating to understand, and I don't know, you I tried to find out beforehand, but it's not so easy to find out things about about you on Google. So but still, but how you've got to got to that point. But in terms of the news that shocked the world, because you know, 25 years old, just won the one her home Grand Slam. To be honest, it looked like a junior playing a grade three event, it was just better than everyone, you know, in their in their local area. So it looked at everyone obviously is going right, this girl, she's gonna go on and just win the next 567 grand slams. She's so much better than everybody. Now, internally, was it a shock? Was it? Was it something that you knew was coming? Or is it something that you felt might come? You know, how did you find out? Can you talk us through that period for someone who was who was so much closer than obviously the tennis public?

Mark Taylor  12:58

Yeah, I mean, Ash is a very private person. Which is probably why I think it was a massive shock to a lot of people. Yeah, I don't think it's any secret that she's a very family orientated person and love to spend time, you know, at home with the dogs and with Gary, her fiance. She's, I think, I think that she said, she had the best, she's always done things our own way. So she had a she had the things that she wanted to do. And she just felt the time was right. And and one thing that I've learned is that Ash is her own person does things her own way. And it's her decision, honestly. And I think I literally, I can't fault the decision, I think. Yeah. Going out. She went out at the time that she wants to go out. And I don't think she'll have any regrets at any point, I think. Yeah, I think she did the right, the right thing for her and her family. And that's the way she's always done it. That's how she lives her life day to day. And I think, yeah, it's as simple as that.

Daniel Kiernan  13:56

When she won the Aussie Open. Did you know that it was going to happen?

Mark Taylor  14:00

No.

Daniel Kiernan  14:00

Okay. And when was the first time that you found out about it?

Mark Taylor  14:07

A little while later. Yeah, she'd obviously been thinking about it. Yeah, and a little while later, yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  14:13

And if we take your start into sport, you know, what did you have a tennis background? What was your sport when you when you grew up? I always thought you are Australian. So

Mark Taylor  14:26

Starting to sound it as well, starting to I'm already starting to sound it so where

Daniel Kiernan  14:31

Where did your your life start? Where did you grow up? What was your sporting your your start in the sport?

Mark Taylor  14:38

Yeah, sure. So I mean, I'm a Yorkshire boy. North Yorkshire probably moved down to just close to Ipswich when I was about 10. Play tennis was actually introduced to the sports by one of my best mates back home I think I think I was 10 or 11. Tried to play played well. I played a lot of football when I was younger. as well as was a decent goalie I'll tell my mates that I could have gone pro with all my few trials and different teams and everything and to be honest, man, I tried every sport. So I played tennis for quite a long time. Play county squads played like, you know, county cup and things like that. Not very well and not not for very long because I wasn't very good to be honest. Yeah, never really played nationals or anything. But I can I can rally them I can, I can play I can hit them down. And now I can tend I've got a pretty damn good slice back and I get slice a slice with that. Yeah, so did that. So obviously was coached a lot. So I had county coaches and county kind of coaching squads. Then also tried playing rugby a little bit, that of rowing as well. Being six foot four and relatively strong. I tried. I tried that. So I tried everything. To become a professional athlete, I was always going to be working in sport at some point. Then I think I was around 18 or 19 and 19 or 20. I realized it wasn't gonna work in rowing, because I was extra row at that point. And I was like, this isn't gonna work out. And actually my old one of my old coaches kind of came to me and said, I'm setting up a high performance center in Cambridge, it Hills Road. Do you want to come and do some lessons? It was okay. Well, I'm doing some personal training at that point. So that's what I was doing. I was doing some PT. So I said, Yeah, hell yeah, I'll jump at that. And I kind of started with him. Did probably a few years kind of there and I was lucky enough at that point to probably to meet Matt Little and Narelle who was the head of actually it actually all comes together at the end of the other story. So she was the head of s&c for the LTA and I kind of realized I went down to the NTC which was kind of newly formed 2007 I think I went down there in 2008 Potentially. And I was like, this is where I want to be like I want to I want to work for the LTA I want to work in elite sport and morale and drinks are obviously I need to get degree so at that point I went in and when St. Mary's University in Twickenham got my degree, and pretty much luckily enough from day one of my university course I was. I was coaching so I was actually just Yeah, Narelle kind of got me in as an intern almost straightaway. I was really lucky to meet Joey Debir who was actually my boss's head of sports science and medicine here as well. Yeah. Him and drinks and speedo as well. He were Steve kurta who was working as well with obviously Andy and Kyle and everyone as well at the LTA and they were great. So they kind of just took me under their wings straightaway. So as I was going through my degree I did so much free work I literally I was there when I wasn't at uni I was there just you know, picking up cones and picking up weights and you know, Evo called me as his weight picker upper is a little weights bitch, which was quite funny. I think he still said it to me whenever I see him. Yes, so pretty much just kind of hung around. And actually at that point, obviously Evo was quite young. There were guys like Josh Milton and Neil portly and Coxy and all these other kind of guys and their coach at the time Julian halfling. who sadly died a few years ago took a shining to me for whatever reason and actually persuaded our kind of boss Carl cook at the time to to let me come on a couple of tours with him. So I went on a couple of trips. I remember my first trip was to Antalya, with EVO it was it was about a baptism of fire to be honest in these wars. It was Evo Willis Coxy or Millz. Dave race, I think was there as well. And they ran rings around me honestly, it was it was a complete nightmare. But we had a we had a laugh and I kind of was like yeah, I'm I'm all in here. And Julian Hofling taught me so much about around just the way that he's coached. And it's kind of feel for the game and everything. And that's actually where my my kind of original nickname Beef came from. So, yeah, so he gave me this nickname. So he used to coach tre SEO, and I think who was also a relatively big unit. And he said, Yeah, his name was birth. So he kind of coined the nickname Beef. So it's whenever I get for beef, I actually, I just think of Jules, a little bit bittersweet, but it's, but it's good fun. And then yeah, so literally, I completed my degree. And luckily enough, they kind of created a role for me. So I stayed there from the I was there between 2009 and 2014. And luckily enough, got exposed some pretty good players actually ended up working with Joe concert for quite a while. While she was kind of transitioning between Australian and British, which was awesome, because I got to work with Louie. That's where I kind of met Louie and Julian Pico, as well. I kind of worked with those guys very closely for three years there. And that was yeah, that was awesome. Like working with Joe, who is the most probably the most driven athlete I've ever worked with. Honestly, that was fantastic and got to make a lot of mistakes that time. A hell of a lot of mistakes. Yeah, and then I can't have left the LTA kind of ended 2014 and went to British swimming, actually so called he'd actually left to become. He was head of sports science and medicine at the British swimming. And actually, yeah, I was lucky enough to get brought in by Colin and I worked under him in a fantastic coach called Scott Pollack, who was actually just moved down to Brisbane, funnily enough. So I work with those guys through the Rio Olympics to 20. End of 2016 start of 2017 and then moved to Brisbane after that. And then I guess the story even just gets even weirder because I kind of came to Brisbane, I knew of this girl Ash Barty. I knew she was good, because obviously I'd stayed in tennis and I'd stay doing a little bit of stuff around my swimming, you know, the working up to the, to the Olympics as well. But Narelle got in contact with me again, because she'd moved back to Australia. And she was like, Look, I've got this girl, Ash Barty, who's been in she's actually been in Melbourne training with me. But she kind of wants to be back in Brisbane, because she's a homebody, as we all know. So I'm looking for someone to kind of transition her to. So I was like, Yeah, I'm literally new on the ground here. I'll absolutely, you know, take her on. Like, I know that she's a bloody good athlete. A bloody good tennis player. Sorry. And yeah, pretty much the first week I got there. Narelle was still writing her programs. But as she was actually the first week I landed, Ash won her first WTA in Kuala Lumper. Right. Okay, just kind of just kind of funny, like, obviously had nothing to do with me. But it was kind of ironic, that ended up in a row was fantastic. Like, she was so open. And she was like, like, transition after me. And we kind of carried on working with a lot of Narelle stuff. And I did all the way up until the end of Ashley's career. Because Narelle is unbelievable. And I learned so much from her. Yeah, so it's funny how that kind of symmetry kind of came about? To be honest. That's more Well, well, it is.

Daniel Kiernan  21:56

But the thing that the thing that hits me there now, if I take you back to what you said, you said you did lots of free work. And and actually, I, I like to call that investment work, you know, because, because I think there's too many people that don't do that. But the stories of people that do do it, look what it's done, you know, it's, you know, call the relationship with calls started there, their relationship with morale started there, you know, and all of those, all of those things ended up being the keys to unlock opportunities, you know, for yourself, you obviously have to be good at what you do, you know, to take those opportunities. And, and I just think it's just a monumental lesson for youngsters that are out there that are coming in and demanding to be paid X, Y, and Z and doing this. I've always believed to get to the next level, you've always got to give you give a little bit of time or a lot of time to learn your trade. And then and then it opens up so many doors. So So Thanks for Thanks for sharing that story. It's I think it's a it's a one that I think should really resonate with people. And what in terms of in terms of an S&C coach now that you've you know, you've got good experience and you humbly say you're still developing, which we all are, What What is the secret to being a good S&C coach?

Mark Taylor  23:26

If I find out I'll let you know. I think I think just trying to just look at yourself with a bit of a critical eye on it. But also actually, I'll go back and actually say that we've all got egos. So like, we all like to think that we're really important, but I think as strength and conditioning coaches, physios, nutritionists, etc. We're a support service. Yep. So we're not the main event. So strength conditioning is not the main event. Tennis is the main event or whichever sport you're working in, to be honest, is the main event. And it's around the player and the coach. It's their world. Well, you know, those guys, you know, I've been in tennis for years, but you guys know it better than I do. So we're there to support and to add some value. And I think if you don't come into wherever you're working, knowing that if you if you think it's all about you and all about all about strength and conditioning, and you know, kilos on the bar, or seconds off a change direction, effort, which is all great, don't get me wrong. If you think it's just about that, then you're probably going to fail in a performance environment to be honest. So I think number one thing even before you've got any kind of knowledge or any expertise in you know how to make someone jump, you know, jump higher, sprint faster, change direction better or move better out of the corners, I think you need to probably understand that. And that's something again, that I try to, to kind of empower younger coaches all the time is we're a support service. We're not the main event s&c is not the main event if someone's squat, 120 kilos, that's great, and it might help it might help their performance but it's not the performance and tons of better s&c coaches than me have said that and I've stolen it and run with it and I think it's I think it's right, honestly. So that would be probably my first part. The second part would be, I think you're having a really good basic skill set of Strength and Conditioning. So I always say that I'm pretty sure that most good S and Cs can work in most sports, to be honest. So you bet you, what you need to do is be able to coach the basics. So you need to understand how to get people stronger, you to understand how to get people fitter, faster, coach you to understand how to coach. So you have to understand technical models of things you're trying to do. Very important. Then the other thing is the kind of the last 20%. So that's kind of the 80%. For me, it's the bread and butter of Strength Conditioning. If somebody's Yeah, if somebody's weak, can you make them stronger? Somebody is unfit? Can you make them generally fitter? Because actually somebody who can't? who think they are coaches? And then the last 20% is, yeah, how do you apply that to the sport? And how do you understand what the sport and the athlete requires? And that's the hard part. That's the really, really hard part to me. So yeah, a lot of very good general coaches out there. But if you don't have that, and you can't do the last bit, in my opinion, or you don't do very well. So there's a lot of very good people who've got very good tennis eyes, but actually don't have the basic requirements for a strength and conditioning coach. So they can actually diagnose faults and things, but they actually can't develop a general athlete. They can look at specific movement, which is all good. It's all well and good. But if you've got nothing underpinning it, well, you can't develop anything underpinning it almost doesn't matter, in my opinion. So you need both to be a very good s&c Coach. And again, a large part of that would be observation skills, and also the ability and the willingness to spend time in the sport. Get out on the court. Stand next to you. What do you see? Yeah, what can I help with? Yeah, what's this? What's his players issue? What's his athletes issue? And then also just watching the sport on TV? To be honest, because yeah, I think a lot of a lot of coaches might not do that. You know, if you're working in, if you're working in wheelchair basketball, you need to go out and watch. If you're working in swimming, you need to go and watch. Like, that was probably the biggest thing for me is that yes, swimming. I've never really spent the time in and I had to just go and sit poolside and understand and learn the sport. We've actually got a couple of new physios who just started with us who are fantastic practitioners, great people. They kind of asked me as you had a conversation one today, and they said, you know what's the biggest bit of advice for me? And I said, Look, whether you're a physio and s&c If you're new to the sport, you need to go and spend time in the sport you need to understand what the coaches and the athletes are looking at and feeling and understand the you know, the tournament structure, the point structure the lingo, you know, understand what open sides, forehand is, things like that, like it's just those small things and understand the terminology and the lingo. And it applies to S and C which,

Daniel Kiernan  27:47

Which, which it's, it's again, honestly, it's another amazing answer. And with so many learnings in it, and it's, I guess, for me from from my point of view, being the tennis coach, when I when I think about the relationships I've had with S&C coaches over the years, it's always started with a personal relationship. Now, you know, how do you build? Well, how do you build a relationship? Well, if, if, if someone's coming in with some humility, and is coming in and saying, I'm here to support, you know, that's already not a bad start, you know, then them coming and standing with you spending time with you showing a willingness to learn, you know, now, we're in and, and, and, and while I think once the tennis coach is in, you know, like you said tends to be, then you can actually get your good stuff through. And whereas if there's a, if there's a bit of a battle going on for, for who's who's the boss, and who's, you know, as you say, with the ego that comes into these things, in their relationship ultimately doesn't work well enough to help the person that we're all there to help, which, which is the player. So it seems it's brilliant advice

Mark Taylor  29:04

And I don't get it right all the time. And I still get it wrong. Honestly, in new kind of new setups and new environments, I sometimes still get it wrong, especially in my maybe not so much in my coaching role, but actually, in my management role. I probably got it wrong a few times recently, where I've kind of come in and almost been like, I'm gonna come in over the top here and give my two cents and probably I haven't actually spent the time with the coach. So it's obviously an S and C coach, who potentially reports to or who does report to me that he's working with a coach and they might have a disagreement on something and I'll kind of I've definitely done it recently, where I've kind of come in and gone. Look, this is what I this is what this is why you should listen to listen to me like, Yeah, this is my experience. This is what it is, but I actually haven't. I hadn't actually spent the time in cultivating a good enough relationship with that coach for me to be able to say that. So that was actually a recent learning for me. Yeah. So it's never it's never finished. The job of learning Making mistakes and then learning again, I think it's it's never done.

Daniel Kiernan  30:03

And every relationship is different. And exactly. Every person, you know, so I think so. So that's I think that's one of the, one of the other things. And in terms of a more, I guess, more general conversation around s&c In tennis, you know, if we talk about data, you know, we talk about these things that are becoming more accessible. You know, there's definitely more in there, where, in your opinion, where do you see that going? Is that you know, what's next? And, you know, how do we kind of extract and progressive even further? Yeah, so,

Mark Taylor  30:41

Again, I have this conversation a lot, I think, tennis is 10 years behind the other sports, for the most part in terms of collecting and using data. And I probably mean, naturally, not so much on the match stats, because I think we're pretty good at that. And I think Hawkeye is making that better every year. But what Hawk I don't think does unbelievably well, and what tennis doesn't do particularly well is track the player. Yeah. So this is something that I know that Matt little is banging the drum on. And something that Matt and I talk about quite a lot, obviously, using different kinds of GPS products to, you know, track the player and understand the actual the physical cost of what's going on. That's what I'm interested in right now. So right now, I, you know, I know what good movement looks like, I know what elite movement looks like, I think, I think I've got a pretty good understanding of that. I don't understand the physical cost as well as I probably could do. And that's something that we're probably focusing on quite hard right now, is understanding, you know, what the physical cost of movement is? What is a typical? What does it match look like in terms of, you know, high intensity movements? You know, what does, you know, what does a forehand on the run look like? What are the what are the underpinning, physical capacities needed to do that really well, again, I think we have a pretty good understanding, you know, just kind of implicitly from experience, but I don't think we have too much data underpinning it. Whereas, you know, if you look at other sports, you know, they've probably spent a lot more time looking at those kinds of things. So in terms of physical data, I think that's where it's going. It's not so much, most of my time and effort and minimal brainpower kind of goes into trying to work out that. Whereas probably 10 years ago, it was more around like, all those all around fitness testing data. Yeah. How, lastly, etc, that's still important for me, because, again, like I've said before, I think there's a minimum, a minimum standard of physical competency, you need to be able to perform at an elite level, but then it's yet trying to understand what's going on. Yeah, what's kind of what's the physical cost of what's going on? And how does that affect the outcome? So even things like trying to link that up to try and link up physical stats, so things like, you know, number of high intensity, accelerations and decelerations and changes of direction, link those up with video and look at when do they occur? I think, again, I think implicitly, we all know when they occur, but actually, you know, pinpoint and go, this is this. This is what it looks like, this is what it costs. And then I think in terms of moving the field forward, it's almost Okay, well, we can do that we can do it better. What's the outcome? So I think, a DCS stat, a couple of years ago, someone was talking about how much better Serena was moving since she had a baby. And those some stats flying around around points, one when she goes and hits the ball outside the doubles trameline. So when she's obviously on, on the kind of full run, so I think metrics like that, I haven't seen that too much recently, but metrics like that, where you kind of linking in that physical capacity to a match outcome or point outcome is, is probably where we need to go. And probably using, using a bit of a bit of machine learning as some kind of started way above my level of intellect to to work out is probably where it's heading, I think,

Daniel Kiernan  34:02

Can you give us a Can you give us a basic example of you talk about the physical cost, and maybe describe that a little bit for the listeners as well. But the physical cost that it's going in into a certain movement, a certain certain part of the game? And how you then take that data to then either apply that in in the training room, or apply that in terms of an advice that you might give to a coach as well. Yeah, sure.

Mark Taylor  34:33

Yeah. So. So we're using a GPS product. At the moment, I won't name the name, but we're using a GPS product pretty well. It's pretty well known, which allows us to track the kind of acceleration and deceleration of an athlete so decelerations obviously, if you think about, you're on a full run, and then you slam the brakes on and stop there generally have a pretty high cost in terms of it's stressful, so it's almost the stuff that causes a bit of damage. Jim makes you a little bit sore. Same with acceleration. So think of acceleration, like if you're accelerating hard, there's an energy cost for that as well. So we can, we can kind of track those things. And obviously, they result in a change of direction. So what I've become a relatively obsessed with, I think it's fair to say if you ask anybody who knows me now is actually looking at when those events occur. So for example, one, one thing I'm kind of focusing on right now is a tactical situation such as girl will be rallying crosscourt from the back hand corner, potentially, and then the other girl goes, you know, hard to kind of laser back and down the line. And then our girl has to run hard into the corners, you know, obviously, execute a skill at high speed, slam the brakes on and then re re accelerate into recovery step. First thing I want to note and why we're using this, this technology is yeah, what's the what's the actual speed and whilst the speed that occurs, and what happens? So what that then does is allow me to look at our training week and look at our training sessions. And say, do we actually train that in the week, because I kind of had a bit of a suspicion that we didn't train it very much. We can't wear GPS in most match situation, I think you can ITFs. So we don't have full match data. But we do have lots of simulated match data. And so we can kind of pick out those events. And I kind of had a bit of an idea that we weren't really training it, we were kind of spending a lot of time doing volume work and doing you know, to cross one line, those kind of things, but not really putting them in that situation. Yep. So I kind of went back and we looked at a team of a couple of different players. And we worked out that let's say in a match, they might do 60 or less, at high intensity movements, of which a lot of those are going to be going hard into into a corner being a training week, they might do 80 in total. So are we actually the question then comes in my head? Are we actually preparing these players for match play? Or are we preparing them to be able to be able to smooth it up and down or drill to cross one line? But then we'll talk about how bad they are in the corners defensively? And we'll say go into a movement session. That's great. But what do we actually do that in training? So what it kind of allows us to do,

Daniel Kiernan  37:14

we love seeing that in our industry player doesn't get in and out of corners very well. We love that.

Mark Taylor  37:19

You go to a new player, you say what do you want to do? I want to get there in the corner. Okay, well, do you actually train it are do movement sessions. And that's all well and good. Like, we can all go through med balls and do things like that. But do we actually create drills to actually train that with live ball? And that's what and that's kind of what it allowed us to do was to actually create some drills, create a couple of drills, they're very simple drills just to allow us to actually train that. And yeah, and yeah, we use that across most of our pro women.

Daniel Kiernan  37:48

Is there a way I'm just kind of thinking outside the box a little bit here is they're a way of you doing that, but taking into account the match stress as well, you know, because I would imagine like playing in a match and the nerves and the stress that goes alongside that, I would imagine adds to the physical nature of it as well.

Mark Taylor  38:09

Definitely, if you can find a way to quantify, I'd love to know, because I honestly, I don't know, we talk about it a lot. And the different sorts of between training and matches. I mean, the one thing that we can probably, you know, this is called controller control with one thing that we can control is the amount of physical stress and the physical effort that we put in in training. And if we're not training in and out the corners, then we're probably leaving something on the table. I guess the way in terms of quantifying it short of Yeah, I don't know that's for somebody who's way smarter than me to probably come up with but it but but it definitely has an effect. I mean, you don't see to any players cramping in practice. That's one thing that we all talk about. Yeah. So there's there has to be some kind of element of psychological stress and fatigue that kind of comes in there which which probably has an element again, a physiologist might shoot me down. But yeah, we don't see too many crampings in practices when they've had a similar external loads. They've had a similar amount of Sprint's or, and range and drains kind of forehands and backhands, you're under stress, repeat efforts, you're off 20 to 30 second recoveries, and they're not cramping. So maybe there's something in

Daniel Kiernan  39:20

that. And to bring it back to ash. I want to ask us a couple more things on on more in terms of your work with her in a practical sense. Was she somebody that bought into into the data?

Mark Taylor  39:35

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, she was. Yeah, again. Yeah, she won't mind me saying this. She she used to refer to herself as my intern. A little bit like she was so she was so interested in training and about how you know why I'm prescribing her what I was prescribing, and this is exactly yeah, you can imagine it this is what you want as a coach. You want somebody who really wants to know what they're doing and why. how it's affecting them. Do you literally tell her something and she gets it straight away? Or she'll go and she'll even like go maybe read something on it. And there's probably something that people didn't kind of realize about her. Yeah, she was. She didn't really, she never really wanted to know too much around the numbers. But we did. And she was very, she was great and allowing me to us to try some different things around. Yeah, how we monitor.

Daniel Kiernan  40:25

And my last question on and then I want to move conscious of your time as well, is one thing I used to love and I love listening to player interviews. I just think mindset, you learn so much the same with actually a bit of a side note, but the same with football managers. You know, I remember like when Frank Lampard came in a few weeks ago, I was like, He's blaming the players in week one, like, What the hell, you know, and it just for me, showed a massive insecurity. It showed all of those things. And the one word I always used to hear with Ash always, always was we. Is that was that something she worked on? Or was that just something that she was very natural with her that she has that appreciation for? It been almost a team sport?

Mark Taylor  40:25

Yeah, I mean, it's no secret that she spent some time in team sports. And loves team sports. You know, she loves AFL. She loves cricket. But to be honest, I've never had a conversation around why she uses that it was always just there. As soon as I came in and met for the first time, kind of mid 2017, she was always referring to it as we. So I never really kind of questioned it, but I guess, a bit to be made of it in the media. And I think it's, it's so normal. So it just seems so normal to me to hear someone say we, you know, it's kind of shared accountability. But also, yeah, we're all on the same journey together.

Daniel Kiernan  42:06

But if we go if we take that as well for you for someone, you are the support team. You're not employed by her. There could be and I'm sure lots of players would make you feel like you are. Sorry, I ever said that. The bitch boy, you just comes and does x y Z. So that surely must have made you feel like you were part of something special. And then you're gonna go the extra the extra yards as well as it went when when the player is constantly referring to an appreciative of the team that's around them.

Mark Taylor  42:43

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think that's that's certainly natural, isn't it? By the way, I think that's probably something he does pretty well as well, right now is referred to refer to his team who have done a great job with me. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm gonna reach the ceiling. Well,

Daniel Kiernan  42:59

Well I think that's quite a common trait and quite a lot of players is that loyalty and that, you know, not something that Evo has got in absolute abundance and he's got a big loyalty as he's been he's been on this podcast three or four times. So he's come on and he's given his time to people as well. On there is always good value is that's one thing you can guarantee with Dan Evans in so what's what's next for you? I guess, I guess when I came onto this call, one of the questions I had which I quickly scribbled out was you lost your job, but you didn't because your jobs your job stayed the same. You know, you've you've made that very clear. So yeah, so what's next for you? You You're you're going to be working more as a coach with players more in a management role. You're you're an English lad. Is Australia the place for you? Are we going to see come back over the over that this way? What's what's the next few years look like for you?

Mark Taylor  43:59

I guess on that Yeah. You never say never. Yeah, you never say I've never set an anchor to one spot forever. I am enjoying it and we are yeah me and my fiance who's actually English we're really enjoying it she moved out with me five years ago now so just just over five years so yeah, we're living out here and yeah, Australia is all it all it's kind of cracked up to be my it's good over here. We're enjoying it so I'll never Yeah, I won't say never but right now we're pretty happy but in terms of yeah my I'm a coach like I do manage a few a few coaches. I think it's probably the weakest side of what of my skill set it's something I need to work on and do better because I don't do it well enough. Because I'm still learning that massively but I will I'm a coach at heart and I love to coach so yeah, I still have my my stable of players that I guess I work with in keeps me very, very busy. Probably makes me neglect the management side of my job sometimes for for better or worse, but I love to coach and I love to kind of help help out the players. I I just want to really take some of the lessons that I've learned, you know, from Ash. Like, I've been so lucky to learn from those too. And actually some of the extended team and Ash's family actually been very lucky to kind of to learn some, some pretty good lessons from those guys, girls. So I kind of just want to try to transfer those through to the next generation, the younger pros I work with, and you know, some of the older juniors especially the younger girls, or the younger, or the developing females, I think that's, yeah, I think there's so many great lessons that Ash has kind of taught us all that need transferring to the next generation, right. So that's probably where I'm at.

Daniel Kiernan  45:38

I've got two things before we got our quick fire round at the end. One, I guess, I don't know if this is all industries, I can only talk about the Telus industry. The Koch management piece is a one that I hear, see, feel all the time. And, you know, in general, what we're looking to do, we're taking the cultures that have had the most success, coaching, and pulling them out of coaching them into management roles, because management roles appeared higher. And then what you ended up doing is you ended up losing your best coaches, and putting those that have these amazing skill sets as a coach into a place where they don't have and I see it all the time. And I'm sure Colin Beecher won't mind me sharing this story. I know that a few years ago, is Collins, a coach? He's a coach. He's a real coach. And he's, you know, he's on the ground. And he I think he actually spoke to the LTA and said, Look, I could go for one of these management roles, that's almost paying double. However, you know, my skill set is being a coach, will you pay me this to be a coach? Now? I don't know exactly what the end was. I think they went with it. But it does feel like it is a bit of an industry problem that we have.

Mark Taylor  46:58

I think you're right. Yeah. It's definitely a paradox, isn't it? Yeah, you get good at your your day job, and then you end up taking on a different role. And it's something that's definitely doesn't come naturally to me. Yeah, so it is a bit of an issue, honestly. And I think that's probably why I've struggled. In my mind, I think I've struggled to probably nail the that side of my role, because I'm still a coach at heart. And I love to coach. Yeah, I don't know how you get around it sometimes. Because again, the other side of it would be, you bring in a classic manager, who, you know, is really, really good on that side of things and system side of things. But maybe he doesn't have the runs on the board. So do people actually give them as much respect? And I've seen it probably work both ways, whether maybe they haven't? Yeah, that person by person doesn't know tennis, or that person doesn't know s&c, they're just they're just a systems person. They're a glorified HR rep. Or, you know, I've heard that kind of said before, as well. So I definitely understand what you're saying. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer. I wish I did the easiest. Yeah, I think you need to you need to be have a passion for both. And honestly, I've kind of sat here and talked about how bad I am at my job on that stuff. But I do actually enjoy like when I actually sit down and and you know, speak to something young coaches, like that's a really big part of my job. And I do I love doing that. And

Daniel Kiernan  48:20

I and I don't believe for one minute that you're bad at it. You know, I think it's that. It's that. That Queenslander humility coming through again. But in terms of you said they're all of the lessons and I think a great way for us to finish before we go to the quickfire round. What are the three big lessons that you've you guys and yourself has learned from Ash Barty

Mark Taylor  48:46

Yeah, I think definitely be humble. Like she's taught everybody Yeah, that you can be unbelievably great and also be unbelievably humble. Continue to that can be that we'll call that number one. Number two, just literally apply yourself every day. You know, if you're if you're not up for it, don't come in. Honestly, if you are up for it, come in and give everything and that's what she was unbelievable. And she is unbelievable that she would come in and give her an exercise and she's doing as well as she can do it doesn't matter what it is. Doesn't matter if it's a stretch or flat out sprint, or you know, a forehand drill like she's doing it and she's she's always kind of conscious and there and then I guess Yeah, the tennis the tennis specific angle that would be you know, hitting up and down. So you know, the warmup how many players you know, just go through the motions in the warmup. Yeah, it's a chance to get better and it's a chance to learn and again, I've never had this conversation with her explicitly but I use just to help like, the first of all, she's dialed in. And again, that's not just her. That's the best players I know. You know, Andy, same job, same job. All these players you know, Johnny Millman James Duckworth, like the best some of the best players we have in Queensland like, Yeah, same thing. They walk on the court. And that's one of the biggest lessons that players can learn. It doesn't. Doesn't have to be something you're doing a million miles an hour, but just the intention just to get better all the time. And then number three is 40. Have fun. Yeah. Yeah, like have fun with it, like work hard, but also have fun. And most of us at my expense, which is fine. That's, I think my little would say the same thing. The essence is always the whipping boy. Especially when you're an Englishman who apparently can't catch like to call me out a couple of times on TV around my catching ability, which was always fun. But no like, and yeah, you got to learn to laugh at yourself as well. And she can she can give it as well as you can take it so fun was very high on the list.

Daniel Kiernan  50:48

Sounds like she's got some similarities with Andy Murray because I was I was in Madrid a few I was in retreat a few years ago watching and you know, they were courtside took the kids from the Academy there. And at the end of their session, they were smacking balls in the air. And it was Shane, the physios was was was dropping the ball

Mark Taylor  51:09

It was a swimmer.

Daniel Kiernan  51:17

He was getting hammered, absolutely hammered. So maybe the dark side of these players is rip the piss out of the people around them and it puts them in a good place.

Mark Taylor  51:26

If it puts me in a good mood again, that's part of the it's part of the services was always it was always good natured and it was always from a place of respect.

Daniel Kiernan  51:37

Yeah. Beef that's been brilliant. You know, and I know like your humbleness comes just shines through and you know I don't for one minute thing you're gonna come off here and think that that's been a good a good podcast you know after what you've said but I can assure you I can promise you that is going to be listened to by 1000s of people that are going to go you know what what a great great story What amazing messages that they're going to be jotting them down you know you keep doing doing your thing you know I'm sure you're you're impacting more than just the former world number one player in the world and there's there's lots and lots of players and coaches that are benefiting massively from it. So thank you for your time. But what what people are really here for today is the quick fire round this is this is nothing to be nervous about. It can be as quick or as slow as you want. What does control the controllables mean to you?

Mark Taylor  52:44

To me, it means Yeah, let's go with the cliche means take care of the stuff that you can influence and that maybe other people can't. So yeah, what is your day to day look like? So yeah, when you get up in the morning, do you know do you do the right thing when you get to the courts? Do you do the right things? You know when you go home from the courts? Do you do the right things? Do you go to bed at night? There are things you can control like you don't need any skill or any talent for most of these kinds of things. You don't need talent to try hard you can control that

Daniel Kiernan  53:16

We call them the daily bill that the academy you know there's there's a bill to pay every single day if you want to be successful in anything like that. Yeah, it's all yours it's all yours. I Oh yeah. Hi Oh yeah for coming on. Gym or track

Mark Taylor  53:35

Can I say Gym and court I'll go gym and court Yeah, if I had to lose one I'd lose the track.

Daniel Kiernan  53:44

Your favorite Grand Slam?

Mark Taylor  53:47

It's got to be Wimbledon still Wimbledon isn't it

Daniel Kiernan  53:50

You're working in Australia that's

Mark Taylor  53:54

Never not gonna be Wimbledon.

Daniel Kiernan  53:57

I have this one in but yeah, I was hoping to surprise you with this one. But you've you've managed to already bring it up. I had Can you catch

Mark Taylor  54:09

You asked me yes if you ask some others around maybe not.

Daniel Kiernan  54:14

Roger or Rafa

Mark Taylor  54:16

Used to be Roger the whole time but with with what Rafa is doing now. I'm gonna have to say Rafa. Honestly, yeah, he's an animal. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  54:25

Serena or Venus.

Mark Taylor  54:29

Serena, she's got better outcomes. Yeah, she's managed to do it for longer.

Daniel Kiernan  54:35

2022 French Open champions male and female.

Mark Taylor  54:41

I'll go Iga she's gonna she's got to win. Yeah, Iga and that she's unbelievable. We're actually very lucky to spend a bit of time around here. I mean, her in Ash got on very, very well and practice a lot together. And yeah, she's she's unbelievable, and I don't think I'm jumping the gun to say that Ash would delighted that you know Iga took over honestly I think she's fantastic and she's taking the physicality to the next level as well so I appreciate that that way and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Rafa even though I want it to be rapid even though I think Alcaraz or Novak right

Daniel Kiernan  55:18

is Alcaraz ready?

Mark Taylor  55:22

Did anyone think Rafa was ready? Yeah, I don't know. He's,

Daniel Kiernan  55:26

I think he is. I think he is ready. So,

Mark Taylor  55:29

but I think he's also got Rafa and Novak in the way. Yeah, potentially. Whereas maybe rapper at that age didn't Yeah, so I think probably Rafa. Yeah. But I'm with

Daniel Kiernan  55:47

Iga spent two weeks at the our academy was sort of a tennis academy, before the last clay court season last year. So we got to know ego and the team team very well. And I couldn't agree more, you know, she lives all of those values. You know, she's, she's putting it in, you know, really interesting to see as well like, how much she did around the mind and physical together, as well, you know, loads of loads of interesting things that she was doing. And yeah, she's she's taken it to another level, the last few months, so it's going to be I think she shows she's going to take some some stopping.

Mark Taylor  56:25

Yeah, I think, yeah, her Paula Badosa, Maria Sakkari, actually even Emma. Like, she's actually a phenomenally good athlete, I think next couple of years is gonna be pretty cool. Because I think it's gonna be some, the way I see it, the best athletes are kind of rising to the top as well as the best tennis players. So absolutely. It's interesting.

Daniel Kiernan  56:45

Medical timeout or not? Oh,

Mark Taylor  56:49

Jesus Christ. Yes. Yes. Because I still trust that some players are still they still need a little bit of something. We call them. Boy nine on that one.

Daniel Kiernan  57:05

Let all no let.

Mark Taylor  57:08

Let

Daniel Kiernan  57:10

Why?

Mark Taylor  57:10

Yeah, the technology is good enough to pick it up. At the top level. I understand the juniors in like NCAA and stuff because people cheat. Like, I do get that. Yeah. So I actually agree with that. But I think at the top level, technology is going to pick it up. And if you have, you know, obviously, mid rally, you can lose in in luck. But officers, I think it's really, really tough. So I think yeah, definitely a top level. Keep it

Daniel Kiernan  57:34

What's one rule change you would have in tennis?

Mark Taylor  57:38

Now, I'd love to see women play five sets from the quarterfinals onwards in grand slams,

Daniel Kiernan  57:43

would they be up for it?

Mark Taylor  57:46

I think so. Yeah. I'd love to see that.

Daniel Kiernan  57:50

I think it'd be awesome. Yeah.

Mark Taylor  57:52

I'd love to see, you know, Sakkari and Iga go at it for five sets. I think that would be unbelievable. Yeah, I think it's a case if you build it, and they'll come as well, like people will rise to the challenge, I think. And they'll also have to then pay even more attention to the physical conditioning side of it. So yeah, that's one thing I'd love to see.

Daniel Kiernan  58:14

Let's do it. Let's get it on. Yeah, and and who should our next guest be on Control the Controllables? Before you answer, you play a role in handing the baton over. Okay, so somebody said, Roger Federer. And I said, Well,

Mark Taylor  58:35

Call him

Daniel Kiernan  58:36

I mean, if you can help me, you know.

Mark Taylor  58:43

Do you know what I'm going to say? Actually, a guy I work with, I'm going to throw him under the bus. Gabriel Echeveria. So he's our, he's our physical performance coach in Melbourne. He works with a bunch of our pro players down there. I'm gonna say that. Yeah, and I'll try and I'll see if I can sort him out. Get him on. Get

Daniel Kiernan  59:00

You do you do a great job is he spoken to a lot of tennis parents in in Queensland in particular? And they always Yeah, his messages. Fantastic. Yeah, he would be a very good guest. it. Let's let's get it on. And the other one I really want on and I our, our sports psychologist is Australian, who he consults at the Academy, and he he used to work with Ash when she was young. And he always talked and he brought Rob Barty on to do to do a talk. And he and he did he did a talk at the academy and he was amazing. He was absolutely amazing. So he's he's the one that I think from a parental side. You know what it is an amazing example a benchmark, a benchmark of how to be a tennis parent, you know, and absolutely, yes, because it's such a it's such a champion. I'm actually my coach, but I'm a tennis parent as well my son plays and it's a very, very challenging, very challenging role to play. So if there's any if there's any little conversations to be had them there as well, we would love to we would love to get Rob on as well. And I'm sure the listeners would benefit a lot from that? If You'd be an amazing, thank you. You know, good luck. Keep up, keep up, keep up the great work. And, and yeah, thanks so much on behalf of all the listeners for coming on as well.

Mark Taylor  1:00:20

No problem, man. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it, enjoyed it. And

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:23

if you are listening, Mark, I just want to say a massive, massive thank you love that conversation. And honestly, Vicki, I think I think I could have been talking to Ash Barty. You know, that just the humility and the, the way that he was, it really did go to show just, we hear it heard it all the time. We we, we've done this, we've done that, and with the humility that came through loud and clear from Ash. But Mark just echoed all of that, exactly the same

Victoria Kiernan  1:00:55

Zero arrogance, zero, ego about it all just very matter of fact, he talked about her high standards, but the low demands that she puts on her coaches, it was just all it was all very relaxed, how he described the setup of it and how he spoke the whole way through, I thought it was interesting. He kept saying he wasn't comfortable in certain aspects of his role, including, you know, talking to you on a podcast, but he spoke so well.

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:24

They did. I think it brings up a bigger, it's, I've reflected on it a little bit, actually. And I think we're in a sport and go back to Keith Reynolds brilliant, brilliant podcast that a brilliant episode, if you haven't listened to it. But Keith talks talks a lot about this in terms of, you go to a tournament 127 People lose. And there's 127 people going back and blaming their coaches, and firing their coaches. And, and I guess the more security you have in your level, the less you then look to actually blame because the coaches and the fitness coaches aren't the ones that are making the tennis player. They're playing a role, it's important, but it's nowhere near the defining factor. And I think there's so many parents listening to this, and players listening to this, if you are constantly looking at a reason why your child or your player isn't having the success you think they should, I would suggest looking a bit closer to home and getting a little bit more security in yourself. Because ash Barty, three time Grand Slam winner, played also professional cricket, arguably could play professional golf as well. You know, all round good person, you'd go for a beer with her, you know, and quite happily, you know, she would quite happily go for a beer as well. And she isn't feeling like she needs to have a fitness coach with her every minute of every day. You know, because she knows it's not that it's not important, but she knows herself. And she knows that actually, I've got my routines. And any help I do get is massively appreciated. And I just think it's such a if we if we stop and think about what the where our industry is, it's full of desperation. You know, and I think I think that brings out the worst and worst in lots of people. And by by saying you want it more, doesn't mean that you'll you've got more chance, you know, just by by just going about your daily business, there might be someone that ends up like Ash Barty was ended up being one of the best players in the world. You know, but you you can't jump around and try and force that issue because it's just not it's not for some people to be to be a certain level. And I think it can't be the only reason why people play play the sport and, and unfortunately, we see it time and time again with parents with players, that it's the only reason. So then you're constantly going to be looking at the bad and people I think and I just I thought it was so refreshing to see a guy and you see him on telly all the time. He's gone through all of these amazing celebrations. You see Yeah, just Yeah, yeah, she's just get in touch with me. And we just, yeah, have the piss taken out of me for an hour or two and couldn't get it to do a couple of exercises. And that's it. And it's obviously more than that he's underplaying it. But I think it's a really nice to see that humility in a sport that I don't think is filled with humility.

Victoria Kiernan  1:04:38

We said that was one of his bits of advice and he's up and coming s&c coaches, understanding that his role is a support and it's not the main event as he called it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:48

Absolutely and and the more the more someone has that attitude, the better they are. Because because it being in it being in it team and being around players being being in a coaching team, you want to work with people that aren't going head on ego to ego and taking away the limelight. You know, you want to be working with people that just know their job, know their role. Get it done, do it in a really in a really nice way and a really pleasant to have around. And and we talked about it with Matt Little as well, didn't we and it's not taken any fun away from the hard skills that these guys have, you know, they are absolute experts in their field. And if they weren't, they would get found out. But it's the soft skills that are getting them into the roles that they have. Because the players and the cultures like having them around.

Victoria Kiernan  1:05:46

He said, I mean, it's going back to the team sport thing, I think as well. You know, Ash Barty played cricket grew up playing in teams, he said he grew up playing football. Yeah, rugby, rowing, all kind of team sport. So I think having that as a child, you get used to working in that team environment and and working

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:05

Working together and not and not being selfish. I think tennis is fundamentally selfish. You know, and that's, it's coaches, parents, players. And listeners, I love all of you guys. But if you look yourself in the mirror, I think you will see that more often than not you. You're making selfish decisions, which you can't blame because Why does little Charlie's dad care about Little Billy, you know, whereas in a football team, little Charlie's dad has to care about a little Billy because it affects it affects how the team does. Yeah. So but that we have it with, with the coaches we bring to the Academy. And it's, you know, bringing bringing self employed coaches who have run their own businesses into an academy setup, where we have employed coaches, trying to work towards a culture and a team, it does take a bit of getting used to, you know, because fundamentally, and that doesn't mean that we've had a lot of amazing coaches, but they will admit to themselves, they've never had to really think of anybody else. Because in our sport, that's the way it's every person out for themselves a little bit. And yeah, I just think it's so refreshing. I actually think it's quite sad that she's stopped playing at 25. I absolutely admire her for doing it her way. And, you know, and that's, you know, that's something that, you know, many of us don't do in life. So they completely admire that. But I think she's a big, big miss.

Victoria Kiernan  1:07:31

Absolutely.

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:33

You know, there's there's plenty more players out there that'll take that mantle. But yeah, just just a great, honest, humble guy, you know, well done marking in all you're doing and, and just stay stay yourself. Stay yourself. And I think all of us can, can learn lots of lessons from you.

Victoria Kiernan  1:07:51

We've talked in previous episodes as well about he mentioned giving working for free to kind of learn his trade. And you could tell that as he was telling the story. I mean, doing that just properly kickstarted his career, really the contacts he made the experience that he got.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:09

Yeah, absolutely. And I've a two points on this. I think the first point is, I completely agree. At the start your career or when you're moving up in certain, in certain parts of the career by second part is I think it's too much of the norm in tennis. I think too often in tennis, coaches don't value themselves enough in their time enough. And I think there's an expectation that coaches are working for free too much. I know, that's something I've certainly done loads over the years. And at the tender age of 42, I'm starting to go Hold on a minute. You know, if I'm not spending time with the family of I'm not doing this then it needs to be it needs to be covered. And so I think it's it's yes, in principle, it's something that is very important that not enough people are willing to to build those networks, they've got too high of expectations at first, but at the same time as an industry I think we have to be careful that as an industry that becomes the expectation that as you're going through your career that players parents who are technically the employers think that they can get coaches for free or for cheap or for, you know, because I'll because at the same time on that, I think I think that's wrong. And I think that happens way too much in the sport as well. It's

Victoria Kiernan  1:09:29

Invaluable, isn't it at the start of a career he talks about Louis Kaya and Matt little and the impact that they that they'd had on him and how much he learned from them to guests as well on Control the Controllables and two amazing episodes. Actually, Louis Cayer is still the most listened to episode number one downloaded, downloaded

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:48

or down streamed.

Victoria Kiernan  1:09:53

Talking about a tennis pitch. Both if you haven't listened to them, I would really recommend going back Louie CK IA is number 102. And Matt little was 136 to awesome episodes. Yeah,

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:09

and I think a massive learning to gain in however many episodes we've done now, it's one of my big takeaways is the importance of getting a mentor. You know, none of us none of us know, you know, until we, you know, we're going into the unknown all the time, and, you know, having someone who you trust around you who, who's who's been there, seen it done it before, is such a massive, massive help. And, you know, I would I would advise any coaches out there not just young coaches, any coaches out there, find yourself someone who, who you really trust and, and will challenge you, you know, to be able to move your career forward. And you know, mentors really do go a long way these people who are in these roles jobs, doing doing incredible things, it's not necessarily that they're much better at what they do, but they've been really good at finding the right people and then it because of that finding the right opportunities and learning very fast. So I think another great lesson there for everybody out there. But yeah, but as I said at the start a big thank you to Mark brilliant, brilliant guest and you know, value everything that you know, came out came out of that, and I hope you guys are enjoying, as you're looking forward to a summer of tennis with Roland Garros and then Wimbledon not far away as well.

Victoria Kiernan  1:11:33

And by the time this goes out, Roland Garros is going to have started and will just be getting back from holiday but Mark gave his picks for his winners. Who are you going for?

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:47

I have the last two years gone against Rafael Nadal which take a motion away from it. That's crazy. He's 114 Ron and irises out of 16 years. You know so from a complete objective standpoint, I don't know how you can go against refounded. That being said you're going to do it again. Chaka which I find really hard to go against as well. I think if you don't mind I'm gonna say one of them to No,

Victoria Kiernan  1:12:24

no, You never allow anyone to do that. You have to pick one. That's the rule but

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:28

well, okay, that's my first thing. I think it will be one of the old boys. I don't think it'll be an up and comer not yet.

Victoria Kiernan  1:12:36

It was a name though.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:37

My name if I was pushed. Would I'd have to go with Rafa.

Victoria Kiernan  1:12:41

Yeah, and the women's.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:42

I think Iga is the big big, big, big favorite. I think she's just add. I think she's had an incredible incredible year and she's taken up a step. And I'm gonna say eager to play against Ons Jabeur in the final and egos going to come out as the Roland Garros champion 2022 Right.

Victoria Kiernan  1:13:03

See we're at a disadvantage here because we haven't seen the draws yet. The draws are not yet out. As we're recording this so I was also going to say rougher and eager so that's boring to say the same so I will go Alcaraz and I would love to see Sakkari win her first Grand Slam I know you're shaking your head it's not I didn't say I'm gonna back into it I would love to see Sicarii at least get to the final

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:37

she's she's basically if refer or Alcaraz when she's protecting herself. Yeah. And now she said like about four different women's names as well.

Victoria Kiernan  1:13:48

I think she's got so close so many times in the big matches and she's so entertaining to watch. Brilliant athlete. I would love to see her do well on the clay anywhere actually,

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:58

what the Hold on. That's a very different question from who you'd like to see do Oh, okay.

Victoria Kiernan  1:14:03

Oh, well, I think eager. Okay, bye. I was trying to just spice it up a bit. I think eager and Rafa.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:11

Okay, there you go.

Victoria Kiernan  1:14:12

I would like Alcatraz. sukari also. I like all for them.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:17

So I'd like Dan Evans to win it. It's gonna happen.

Victoria Kiernan  1:14:20

I would love Dan Evans to win it worries you boy.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:24

Brian pennis Denali and Brody. qualify you know like it's but good luck to all the Brits I mean, as well. There's there's going to be a good few of them in then and I know a few of the boys sneaking into the qualifying drawers as well. So yeah, so good luck, and well, I hope they've already qualified by the time this goes out. But hope everyone's well. We will be back next week with another amazing guest and joy the French Open enjoy the clear chords, the dirty socks. The long rallies, the French groans in the crowd. out and we will be back next week but until next time I'm Dan Kiernan we are Control the Controllables