#191: Andrew Jarrett - Wimbledon Referee for 14 Years

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 191 of control the controllables and Wimbledon is around the corner. We all love the grass court season. It's time for us to eat strawberries and cream to drink Pims to sneeze a lot because of that smell of that freshly cut grass. And we hope obviously, that the sun shines upon us, just like it just has through the two weeks in Paris, for Roland Garros. And who better to have on as we move into this period of the tennis year than the 14 year Wimbledon referee. It's like a James Bond when a James Bond retires, we all want to know who's going to be the next James Bond. Is it Sean Connery? Is it Daniel Craig, and that is what the Wimbledon referee position holds. And Andrew Jarrett held that for 14 years between 2006 and 2019. where his final match saw Novak Djokovic beat Roger Federer in that classic 13-12 And the fifth set match. And not only does Andrew Come on, with stories of Wimbledon, and behind the scenes as a referee, but he also played to an incredibly high level, he was a Wimbledon player himself. He was Davis Cup representing Great Britain and winning matches for them. And then he moved into the world of coaching. He coached at a high level. He then worked at the Lawn Tennis Association, and also the ITF. So I think it's fair to say, we've got a lot of lenses of the game that Andrew can tell us about. He speaks brilliantly. He's a funny man. And he's got some great, great stories. I loved my time speaking to him. And I'm sure you will love your time listening to him. I'll pass you over to Andrew Jarrett. So Andrew Jarrett, a big welcome to control the controllables how're you doing?

Andrew Jarrett  02:18

I'm very well, Dan, thank you so much for inviting me onto your podcast. I'm very privileged,

Daniel Kiernan  02:24

you've very much been on the list for a long time, you know, and to get someone of your experience Andrew and I know today's a special day because you, you have your book that you have been working on for a long time. And we're gonna get into that and many things today, but Championship Points is released today, I believe during the 13th. And when I read through the book, and I felt very privileged to get the chance before other people did. There was so many stories that I related to. And the thing that hits me Andrew is I'm now at the stage of my career. I've done so many things that you had done. So I'm now waiting for the call from Wimbledon. It feels like maybe now this is this is the time I move into officiating. So what happens? When does that come?

Andrew Jarrett  03:18

Hey, Well, Dan, first of all, I'm absolutely delighted that you've read the book that means that one person has read it. And I mean, that is a stark, isn't it? You know, I hope I don't want to see what others might read it. But I'm delighted to hear that you got through it as as to Wimbledon. Looking forward to watching this space. And if it happens, I'll be the first to shake your hand.

Daniel Kiernan  03:36

Waiting. I've my phone is at the side. How old were you when you got the call?

Andrew Jarrett  03:41

Oh dear. I mean, are you giving me a maths test so early in this interview? And I would say mid 40s That's a fairly that's a fairly general one.

Daniel Kiernan  03:50

So maybe a couple of years time it'll it'll come and I wanted to start with there's loads I want to delve into there's so many topics that you know emotive topics this is our life isn't a tennis is our life and for so many of us. And you know, like I said so many things that we can relate to. But starting with a lot from Derby, why? Why tennis?

Andrew Jarrett  04:13

I think it's because I grew up around and in a tennis family. So I had two older brothers that were both playing. And when I was a very little boy, they were already pushing on sort of county playing days. So therefore I grew up at tennis. I started to bug everybody I was the irritating little brother that you know, wouldn't sit still always wanted to pick up a racket and play and if that failed, then there was a practice wall. And so I'd spend hours trying to knock down this practice wall and, and so it started but very, very early days. It became my Lifetime's ambition to play for my county and so it started there.

Daniel Kiernan  04:53

Is that Is that a problem with the sport? And what I mean by that Andrew is As I think I mentioned, I think you're guest 191 Closing in on two hundred on Control the Controllables. And I hardly remember a guest that didn't start tennis, other than through their family who were already a tennis family, or happen to just live right next to a tennis club, which, which has got alarm bells ringing a little bit in my head, because it's like, how, how do we make the sport accessible to people that it's not already in their world?.

Andrew Jarrett  05:35

I think that's the challenge for the national federations. It's the the challenge for people working in the regions and the towns and the villages around the country to actually try to access people that perhaps otherwise wouldn't naturally gravitate into tennis, tennis now has to compete against not just all of the other sports, but all of the eSports as well. And all of the other major demands on young people's time. And that's, that's a big ask, in days gone by. If you look at, for example, Australia, out in Australia, every semi reasonably large house in Australia in the countryside had its own tennis court. So people were playing and playing locally from a very early age it was it was a part of life. That's not necessarily true now.

Daniel Kiernan  06:22

No, no, absolutely, you're talking you're talking about that as well. Like, life as a youngster is very different nowadays. You know, I see it out in the tennis academy out in Spain, everything's structured, you know, almost every minute of their day. And if I take you back to being a youngster, I would imagine you played a lot. You've already mentioned, you hit against the wall, you were down the local club, you were doing all these things. But one thing that did jump out in the book was nowadays we don't get many players hitting a single hander on the backhand side. And single hand is almost the story behind it now. It's almost like well, I love Federer, so I wanted to hit or, or my coach, you know, fell, whereas back in back in your day, it was the single hand it was the norm. But you were you were a double handed. So how did that start at such a young age?

Andrew Jarrett  07:15

Well, I was that little and junior tennis rackets were non existent that this large piece of wood with a few strings attached to it was actually too heavy. So the only way I could actually wield the thing was actually by picking it up with two hands. And that start that that got dropped on one side, but never on the other. Hence, the two handed backhand. But it's, it is a development now. And you're quite right. I mean, it kids are now growing up with junior rackets, you know, balls that are different, they're suitable for the age growing up. And so therefore, technique is taught much, much earlier than it was in my day.

Daniel Kiernan  07:51

And so were you taught that or was that something that you just did yourself?

Andrew Jarrett  07:56

I would say it was 85% natural, and you know, 15% people having a quiet word, but not necessarily coaching, it will just be somebody that had played a bit and actually offered a word of advice, but it was pretty much natural.

Daniel Kiernan  08:12

And as we go through your, your tennis life, Andrew and as as a player as as a coach, and then as many of us know, you, the guy who walks on the court to let people know that the covers come on at Wimbledon. You know, it's it's, it's obviously been a very, very rich life, in terms of experience. And I love how you delve into the travel and travel something that you clearly have loved, you know, that comes through loud, loud and clear. But it also brings and it opens up and experiences that I've had, but I'm sure anybody that reads a book that has been in the game. And it's almost this desperation for ATP or WTA points. And because it's not necessarily desperation for money, because we're not going to a lot of these countries to make much money. And, and I, I stopped at the page when you were talking about your time in Nigeria, where you almost, you're worried about your life, you know, and it got me just thinking, you know, how many industries or how many, certainly sports in the world are set up in this play position, where it's almost normal for budding tennis players, tennis stars, to put themselves in such dangerous situations.

Andrew Jarrett  09:39

I think it's a treadmill, whatever walk of life you choose, it's very easy to end up on a treadmill and on the tennis treadmill, you get sucked into this desire to improve your ranking and to be seen to be better tomorrow than you were yesterday. And everything is aimed at doing that. And in order to achieve that it does involve Doing some uncomfortable some sometimes unpleasant things. And yes, you know, you're you're traveling widely Well, I think unless you've got the, the desire and the will to do that, and perhaps the ability to survive the ups and downs that those challenges bring, which in itself is a wonderful education for life. Because if you're risk free through life, then it's highly unlikely that you're going to achieve the heights. And so from that point of view, having a quiet word in the air of a younger person who's struggling is so valuable, because you can actually get them to see it with a little bit more perspective than they perhaps would do on their own. And, you know, I think tennis is a wonderful education, regardless of whether or not you reached number one in the world, or you reached number 10,000 of the world, it doesn't matter from a certain perspective, because you're dealing with wins and losses, the ups and downs, can you cope with the losses? Can you come back again? Can you lose sick times, six times in a row and come back for a seventh attempt? And that type of thing, perseverance, a bit of sweat? Can you be better tomorrow than you were yesterday, and they're the constant challenges, but it is tough when you're actually fighting, the win or the loss that you're going to face in your next match?

Daniel Kiernan  11:16

Do you think we do you think we sell that enough as an industry because I have a thing I call it the success equation. And anybody that ever comes to soccer or tennis academy, it's the first thing that I say and, and it's, it's a strong belief that I have that if you have a player, a person who, who has an unconditional effort that they're bringing every single day, they've got a desire, they've got a want, they've got this, this this real drive, and you have them in the right environments with the right opportunities, which we know is sad in this world, that not everybody gets those environments, that environment and those opportunities. I almost believe you can't fail. And I And I've just seen it, and you would have seen it more than me Andrew in, in the sport of tennis. I just see a very few failures when someone throws themselves at it. You know, and, and obviously, how we how we define success then is very important. But you know what you've got on like, like you said, off air, people will know you more for your Wimbledon refereeing than they will for winning Davis Cup matches for Great Britain. You know, winning matches the biggest tournament of the world as a tennis player coaching at the high level working for the Federation's working for the ITF. So how much has that travel and experience laid the foundation for what you've then been able to go on in your professional life, but also in your personal life as well.

Andrew Jarrett  12:59

I think all of our history sums up or adds up to the person that you are right now. And I think that I've gained enormously from the travel from the experiences from the occasional win and the many losses that were part of that process all the way down. And I think that we all grow as people throughout our lives. Can I tell you a little, little story of one of the greatest success stories I have heard in the world of tennis. And quite a long time ago, I went out on behalf of the International Club of Great Britain to South Africa. And it was a role that I bought volunteered my services to go out and give some tennis coaching clinics in some of the townships around Cape Town. And so I went out there and it was principally to give rackets or donate rackets but I ran these coaching clinics out there and I heard the story of a young lads had actually started off and he'd been picked, because he had a little bit of sporting talent. And he started to play in one of these programs in his local primary school in one of the townships. From there, he'd been picked up and he'd been, you know, he'd had a year or two of training and he went through to the local training camp, which was at certain on the Bosch on Cape Town, he may well have played them, many of us did. And from there, he eventually developed started to play a few tournaments. Bottom line was at the end of it all he got a scholarship to an American university. That is one of the greatest tennis success stories I can give you. You can talk about world number ones and multimillionaires as much as you like. This kid has come out of a township in South Africa. And he's ended up with the opportunity of getting a scholarship and education and a degree in an American university and and a chance a key to a better life. That is one small story that very few people will hear. For me. That's right up there with all of the other success stories that were well aware of.

Daniel Kiernan  14:56

I couldn't agree more Andrew and that's what I Want also from this podcast, I want us to get the stories out there, you know, we, we actually help. A big project that we've started we're in the early stages is out in Kenya. And what we've what we've done is we've brought, we've brought a coach over to Sotogrande, and we're working, we're working with him to upskill him, but also then to raise money to help back in Mombasa, where he's from. And we then got quite close to Angela a player out out in Kenya, she, she actually made the final of a Grand Slam Junior event last year. And you think how? They were playing, playing tennis without strings without shoes, you know, some days, some days not having not having balls. And and I think that's, I guess education goes both ways. You know, so part of this project that we've got with, with Arnold and out in Kenya, and we've got dreams to do, what do a lot more is, yes, we're educating him. And we're helping the situation over there. But we are as an academy, getting an incredible education, the other way of humility, you know, of understanding, you know, what it is and gratitude for what we have, you know, that so many of us take for granted. And it's something in the platform of tennis and people like yourself, Andrew and being able to bring these stories through via your book, I just think is so important that I know, there's people listening to these podcasts in over 150 countries now. And and for people to be able to get the stories and understand it's not just about being the next, Carlos Alcaraz or Iga Swiatek, or, you know, and understanding that there's so many layers to success is massive. So thanks for sharing that. But I also want you to share your scariest story as a player. So when you you know the some people won't read the book or certainly haven't read the book. So I know you've talked about Nigeria, but what's, what's the scariest story the time that you felt you in a position of thinking, Oh, my goodness, what am I doing here?

Andrew Jarrett  17:14

Well, one would be off court and one would be on court and it's from completely different levels that one actually does, does does hark back to the trip to Nigeria where we've managed to get a local driver to take us to Lagos from Benin City. And we came across a lorry that was jackknifed across the road. And we crossed over to the other side of the road to get past it. Look back to see the driver hunched over the wheel. Sadly, the poor chap had died. It was going to be many days before the lorry and indeed, he was moved a few miles further on. There was a guy in fatigues with a rifle in the middle of this deserted road. And the following took place. Without a word being said, first of all, we were gestured with the rifle to leave the road, we will gestured with the rifle to get out of the car, we will gestured with the rifle to open the trunk of the car, the boot of the car, to bring the bags out to open two or three bags. He looked inside, and then we will gestured to put them back inside the car and gesture to go on our way. We were all shaking afterwards, because we actually realized we didn't know whether this guy was official unofficial What motives he had, we could have simply disappeared in the bush that day and nobody would have known and that was scary on one level. Second story. The other end of the scale, I'm playing the first ever live Davis Cup singles match. And I've come back from two sets to love down four two down in the third I've got to a situation where I've changed tactics and I'm now serving for the match in the fifth but five 3 30 15 than I am so nervous I can hardly raise my arm above my head and I throw the ball up I'm in Barcelona I throw the ball up there feels like the ball has disappeared off towards Madrid. But instead of letting it bounce like I should have done I chased the thing and instead of the nice cushion three quarter piece contact that was going to get the damn thing in court. I ended up slapping the thing and the thing fires absolutely flat off the racket goes halfway up the the sideline that a complete angle for a clean ace now I only served I think three aces in my entire career. And that actually was probably the most important one, and it was compounded by the fact that my opponent that day who I don't think that ever been to the net other than to shake hands decided I think for the first time in his career since you've been a junior to come to the net and the lovely chap push this volley. It was a horrible ball. It went long and I won the Davis Cup match, though were the two scariest moments one on court and one off court.

Daniel Kiernan  19:57

Very, very good and you talk about Davis Cup. What an honor. You know, and what? For any player, you know, and I know, you talk again in the book about the doubles match with your good mate Jonathan Smith against against Italy. You know, I think it was in Brighton. And you know, what, what are your memories from Davis Cup? You know, what are the? And I guess the second question to that Andrew is we all love team events so much, at least probably 95% of the world. I think I'm all set for team sport that we are individuals sports, should we not be doing more of that in the sport of tennis as well.

Andrew Jarrett  20:43

Playing Davis Cup was was a pinch me moment. So you know, I had long held to be a major ambition to actually be selected was great to be selected to play was great to actually walk on the court and become a Davis Cup player, for me meant so much. And your writing as much as team sports are fantastic. You know, in Britain, I think we were brought up principally around team sports, you know, football, or cricket, or rugby, is all very much linked to team team team. Tennis is a very individual sport. So then when we do get the chance to play as a team. And if you buy into that ethos, the fact that you're winning, not just for yourself, but for all of your mates. And maybe those people that might support that team as well does make it seem so much more, it makes anything less than 100% effort, which we all know should be there all the time. But it's very difficult to achieve. And it makes anything less than 100% effort completely unacceptable. Because while it might be acceptable, when you're letting yourself down, you can't let your mate down, you can't let your team members down. So therefore it has to be all or nothing.

Daniel Kiernan  21:57

And in terms of that, it's it's actually a sore point for me Davis Cup, I have to, I have to talk about it with with all these people that have played it, but it's my one. It's my one big regret as a player that I never had the opportunity. But I did luckily get it I got to coach for Ireland. So I got to experience the Davis Cup experience. And with the Irish boys who I was coaching at the time, I know that they felt such a strong sense of almost too much if I'm honest, but that they're playing for the country, they really felt it, you know, like putting that green shirt on. It wasn't it was obviously about the teammates, but it seemed to be quite almost bigger than that the even when they were playing futures events or playing other tournaments, having Ireland next to the name really, really carried quite a bit of weight is is that something that you that you felt or were you able, from a mental standpoint to be able to almost internalize it and, and keep it a little bit in in a smaller tighter circle.

Andrew Jarrett  23:06

I think you either you you struggle you thrive with that aspect of it. For a start, the chair umpire is cool calling the country's name and not your name. And that feels very different when you're slowly changing ends for the first time. At the end of the first game, when you hear game to Great Britain or your opponent, you

Daniel Kiernan  23:27

hope you hope that you hear game to Great Britain.

Andrew Jarrett  23:30

Well, you know, maybe if I've been lucky enough to be receiving serve, it was more likely than if I was serving. Yeah, I think hearing hearing the country's name was was, you know, actually the other thing was when I became an official many, many, many years later, and I started to referee Davis Cups, I actually started to see it as a third person in a private battle between two nations. But in my very privileged position is referee sitting right behind the chair umpire. And between the two captains and the two team benches. I was party to an awful lot of the conversations that were going on. And you became so aware of how important Davis Cup was to not just my own nation, but every nation. And you mentioned Ireland I obviously was lucky to play for Great Britain. But then as a referee, I was involved with dozens of other nations in either the Fed Cup as it was then or Davis Cup matches around the world. And that intensity of feeling is very much felt around the world. It's a fantastic feeling. And it does elevate the importance of matches to a new level that you don't get as an individual

Daniel Kiernan  24:41

And have an have we messed with it too much. You know, I was I was at the finals. The Davis Cup finals is in Malaga now, which is just down the road from us. So I was there for quite a lot of the kind of quarterfinal matches. I would say 50% of the nations didn't seem as fussed as they once were, obviously the Italians, the Canadians who went on to win it, they were there. But, you know, Americans, you could see very much just turned up for the paycheck. You know, that was they didn't want to be there, they were ready to get out of there gone up there holidays, you know, have have we messed with the tradition too much on the Davis Cup.

Andrew Jarrett  25:21

I was very, very fearful when I heard of the changes. I haven't heard anybody tell the story that you've just mentioned about Malaga there. And I'm sad to hear it. But I'm not surprised. And that was exactly what I feared would happen when the changes were announced. Yeah, we've lost five sets has moved to three and Davis Cup. And the movement away from the home and Home and Away elements is a great shame. I think there was a huge intensity to having either a very supportive crowd if you're at home, or potentially a very hostile crowd when you were away, that was part of the Davis Cup. atmosphere. And that was something you had to deal with. It made it special. And I think we've lost that, which is a great shame.

Daniel Kiernan  26:03

I mean, even and, and for you listening I don't know if you've picked this up, but it last year, I was in Turin at the ATP tour finals. And it's a long year for these players. And I want to get into that a little bit later as well because there's been some changes made with the way that the set the tour calendar up now. But it's a long year. And you can tell the players, they're knackered, you know, they're in Turin, the money is very good. So it's it's lucrative enough to push through push through that week. But I saw the doubles guys in particular. And I saw Wesley Koolhof who had finished the year world number one, you know won seven tournaments that year had this incredible year with Neal Skupski. And when he lost in the semi finals, I believe it was okay, everyone else was off to have their two week holiday before they get ready to prepare for Australia. And he was heading to Malaga. So off he went, the next day keep training a day or two later goes to Malaga. Trains in Malaga, for two or three days, Holland then turn up to play their first match, I believe, against Australia. And they lost two tight singles, matches, played, doubles wasn't even played on a. And it was like I saw him. And I felt so sorry for him because he's, and that's not that's just Wesley who I happen to, to know and be speaking to. But the amount of players that must have happened to it that in itself isn't conducive to an event that the players and the teams are going to fully get their heads around, you know, that end of the year. So I know. And again, we don't have to go into the full details of that. But I know that there's a big thing going on right now with cosmos and the IETF. And, and I believe that there's only one year left of that, of that structure and setup. So it's going to be interesting, but if anyone that's in a decision making position on the Davis Cup, bring us back, our Home and Away ties, you know, bring us back that tradition, and also allow the doubles guys to play a live rubber as well.

Andrew Jarrett  28:15

Well, I think you and I both are battling on behalf of the cause of the doubles players, certainly more of a doubles player than a singles player. So yeah, I feel for those guys, they're in a way the unsung heroes, they don't get an awful lot of attention. And yeah, and yet they're putting in the effort in the same way that the singles players are.

Daniel Kiernan  28:36

Absolutely. And on that said, there's a lot of topics now. One thing when we talk about Wimbledon, and people often ask me, What's my favorite Grand Slam, or the favorite, my favorite tennis tournament in the world? And, and what I actually say to them is, I have to take Wimbledon out of the equation, because to me, it's bigger than a tennis event. It's it's Wimbledon, you know, it's like, it's just so grand. And it's like the biggest garden party in the world. It's, it's different to anything else, you know, but it's obviously been a big part of your life. And it's it's in many different areas. So I want to start by talking to you about Wimbledon as a player, you know, and I want to get into the officiating, and ultimately the head guy who's the who's the referee. And the question I want to ask you, Andrew with the players lens on is, is Wimbledon, a good thing for British tennis?

Andrew Jarrett  29:37

Yes, it has to be because we have, fortunately in my view, the best tennis tournament in the world, and to have it on our doorstep means that it's a huge inspiration to so many around the country. So from that part, that from that point of view, certainly for myself growing up as a junior player. The dream of playing at Wimbledon was fantastic. And then to get the opportunity of playing there, albeit at a junior level was just terrific. So this was providing huge motivation for me all the way. I think, for other players as well. If they're not from a Grand Slam nation, then I think the majority of them would probably go with Wimbledon as being their favorite event. It is different. It does lean on the tradition heavily. But I think there's a lovely phrase I like to use about Wimbledon, it is the cutting edge of tradition, in as much as you know, it tries to maintain, perhaps some olde world standards attached that have perhaps been allowed to lapse elsewhere. But nonetheless, it has to compete in the modern world. It does compete in the modern world. So therefore, it is constantly pushing forward. Albeit a lot of that is behind the scenes. But like you, I would be asked, What's your favorite Grand Slam? And I would duck out of the question by saying, Well, I can't rank Wimbledon because I'm too closely involved with it. Now I'm not I'm outside of it. So it's very easy. Yes. For me Wimbledon clear number one.

Daniel Kiernan  31:08

So let me delve into that a little bit more. Did you play Wimbledon on your ranking? Did your ranking get you into Wimbledon directly?

Andrew Jarrett  31:20

Only once, most of the time I was benefitof the wildcard system. Yeah. Which is a freebie. Yep. So you are not worthy of being in the tournament on your ranking. And fortunately, by reason of the fact you're a leading British player, you're given a free pass into Wimbledon, which is an incredible opportunity for the British players, or the home players of any major tournament, it's an incredible opportunity to not just earn a little bit of prize money more than they would do normally. And that helps to fund the rest of the year. So that's important for them, but also the opportunity to earn serious points because the points on offer are much greater than there was at the lesser level of professional events.

Daniel Kiernan  32:05

So my next question? If you weren't British, and wildcard wasn't an option, do you think that possibly you would have got your ranking a little bit higher, and had the chance to play Wimbledon more? And I guess that question goes to you. But also thinking of your peer group? Do you think that maybe some people settled with being a top British player and getting their wildcard into Wimbledon, whereas the foreign players don't have a choice but to get their ranking inside top 100 to be able to play it? And that's I guess I'm certainly not bashing Wimbledon in any Wimbledon is incredibly, amazing. I just have this feeling maybe it comes from my personal experience that maybe I set a ceiling myself, of maybe setting my goals to reach the ranking of what would get me in as a wildcard. And I saw that around me. And I just wonder if potentially it holds British players back from striving a little bit further, because they put put put a ceiling on on it because it's such a big thing to qualify to play it. But we're qualifying to play it through getting these freebies, these wildcards. Rather than striving to have the highest ranking.

Andrew Jarrett  33:34

I think you're touching on two or three different subjects there. I mean, first of all, goal setting, and goal setting absolutely crucial to the whole aspect of becoming better at whatever subject we're talking about here. In my earliest days, it was my goal to play for Derbyshire. I fortunately achieved that. And then it quickly moved on to other more ambitious goals. But the two overriding ones for me were probably to be a Wimbledon player, and to also be a Davis Cup player. Now, as those are achieved, then goal setting I think needs to move on grow very quickly, so that it's no longer enough to do that. But I think it's no longer enough to be a Wimbledon player, but to be in your words there and quite correctly, a Wimbledon player, they're a worthy Wimbledon player one that's in on ranking. And then to become not just top 100, but top 50, top 30, top 20. It's never ending until you actually hit the peak of number one. And then comes the challenge of staying at number one. So in fact, these goals never actually go away. But they do change. And it's important that they do change to recognize where you're at at any given time. So I think does it help or hinder British players? It helps British players in as much as it provides much needed finance that perhaps enables them to stay on the tour longer than they would but there is this feeling perhaps and you've certainly alluded to it there that there's a certain self satisfaction Okay. And now I've got there I've done it. So therefore the motivation levels to get better is perhaps reduced. I think that's down to the individual. And in these days, with a lot more support in terms of player backup and entourages around individual players, it's down to the responsibility to be giving the right message to make sure that the, the male or the female player is constantly challenged to change their goals and to be better tomorrow than yesterday.

Daniel Kiernan  35:27

Good answer. It's yeah, I think you've covered I think you've covered a lot in that answer, and I think it is a good answer. And I do think it comes down to individuals. But But I, I do think, as human beings, the way that we are, we are, I'm sure you said something about this, too, similar to this at the start, we, we tend to the treadmill, he used the example of the treadmill, you know, we tend to go to the way that the norm is in lots of ways, you know, and, and the culture and, and the the environment, which we which we know are so important. I just think for too long. There's been there's been from era to era to era to era, that that we all judge, or most of us judge our tennis careers on on Wimbledon or Davis Cup, I think those are probably the two things that we've as British tennis players we've judged ourselves on. Whereas I live in Spain now have done for 13 years, obviously spending a lot of time with foreign players, I think there is a very different outlook from nations that aren't grand slam nations, that potentially gives them a little bit of a hunger that the grand slam nations potentially lack a little bit. Now, I do feel that that's potentially changing a little bit. But I think it's an important topic for people to have some thought processes on the you know, so we don't continue to fall into that into that same same way of working and thinking.

Andrew Jarrett  37:06

I think it's very important for people as a very early age to be thinking internationally. And you've touched on that now you're somebody that's actually now based in southern Spain, lovely parts of the world. Incidentally, I've lived outside of Britain now for many years. And I think as a young boy, my world began and ended in Derbyshire. After that, my world began and ended in Britain, reasonably soon after that my world began and ended on planet Earth. And I think the sooner you can be thinking internationally, when you're dealing in an international business, like tennis, the better. And I think in a way, it's very, very dangerous to get locked in to the nationalism, that is Davis Cup, that is Billie Jean King cup, that causes us all to be looking at the British players, the French players, the Australian, actually, you know what, we're all international players, and we're competing as an individual. And it just happens to be that for two or three weeks of the year, you'll come together, and this boundary that happens to be Britain, France, Australia, whatever it is, and we'll play together as a team. But for 365 days of the year, you should be thinking as you the individual in an international world, competing against the rest of the world. And I think those that are able to embrace that idea early enough, and take it forward and have long term goals that are overriding the short term need to win this particular match today actually have a better chance of long term success.

Daniel Kiernan  38:38

Great advice. And a really quick story, Andrew on that. I remember back in whatever year was 2003, something like that. I was playing up in Glasgow, and I was speaking to Judy Murray. And there was a young Andy Murray, who was kicking all of our arses on the singles court. Not not not yet on the doubles court, but he was

Andrew Jarrett  38:58

I remember it I was the referee. Were you. Well, I didn't want to talk to Scott. Scott. Scott.

Daniel Kiernan  39:06

There was a there was Davis Cup weekend happening. And GB were in quite low divisions at that time, but it was on BBC. And Judy said to me, oh, no, no, Andy isn't watching Great Britain. He's watching the Spain France match, which is like the semi finals of Davis Cup. And that I've reflected on that and stories like that quite a bit because that I think that showcases where Andy's mind was from such a young age. He was thinking internationally. He wasn't watching the British team in Division Two saying I want to be in this team. He was going I want to watch the best players in the world on the international stage because that is where I'm heading. You know that

Andrew Jarrett  39:49

You don't see that a lot. I totally endorser. I think that is international thinking. It's an early age and shows the mindset

Daniel Kiernan  39:57

Yeah, we need more of it. So then it takes me into the role of a Tennis Federation and you know we've obviously in Britain we've got our federation is the LTA every every nation has Federation's of their varying degrees of wealth or involvement. But I love this story that one of the stories in the book that you, you talked about how Germany was getting a bit of a hard time. You know what it was like? Bloody Germans, they've got the system wrong. They're not they're not producing any players. It's too easy to just play club tennis and a few tournaments whilst you do a bit of coaching. You know, that's not conducive to producing champions. And then lo and behold, a red headed Boris Becker comes out of the shadows followed quickly by Steffi Graf, or Steffi was probably before Boris and Michael Schtick, you know, and all of a sudden they're winning all the grand slams. And maybe people turn around and say the Germans have got it right. We need to copy the Germans and and I've seen that happen a little bit of my time with the Belgium you know, there was my era, I was the same age as Xavier Merlise Olivia rock, who's given Kleist as Justine Henning. And they were the best juniors in the world. So then it was like, well, the Belgium's are the ones we have to copy. And then before then you've got in Switzerland, you've got better and Wawrinka that are coming through? Well, maybe it's the Swiss, you know, we we can tend to move to the trends of where the top players are coming through. I'm not sure that's the job of the Federation to be to be producing these world class superstars that are winning grand slams. But what's your take? What what is the actual role of a Tennis Federation,

Andrew Jarrett  41:47

The role of the Tennis Federation is to provide opportunity for people to be introduced to the sport in a healthy, competitive, supportive environment that grows the sport as big as it can possibly grown at the grassroot level, and to enable people to continue to play the sport. And I think that the role of the player development side of it, which is what a lot of Federation's spend a huge amount of money on why because it buys the support of the media, if you happen to hit the jackpot and get a Becker or a Graf, you know, many, many example. Actually, incidentally, you forgot Sweden as being possibly the first example of a country being held up as being the perfect example. I'm

Daniel Kiernan  42:33

not that all the time that that that was before my time.

Andrew Jarrett  42:40

Now, they don't have respect for your elders here. Yeah. Going back to what the the Federation role is, you know, I think is is very much you know, the parts of the schools, getting the competitive environment established, and the opportunity for people to play. And that I think, takes care of also, if you if you're building a pyramid, and they all are, if you have enough people at the base of the pyramid, people at the top end will tend to be pretty good. And if you do the, if you build a pyramid big enough at the bottom, over a long term, you will over time produce great players,

Daniel Kiernan  43:16

if you give the right competition structure. Yes. And that's that would be a big thing for me. And it's something I get asked of all the time Spain, Come on Why? Why surprise had done so well. And, for me, it all filters from competition structure, you can play competition, that a high level at all levels, international, national, regional, local, all ages, all stages of development whenever you want, without spending a lot of money to travel. And then because of that, the whole ecosystem works because now you have more coaches, more academies, more people playing, and then the cream will rise to the top. And, and and that would be the word facilitate, for me, is a really key word for a federation that they facilitate. They're not responsible for producing but they are responsible for trying to facilitate these opportunities. I think we're saying the same thing.

Andrew Jarrett  44:13

Spine is a very good example because there are so many tournaments of a very good level. And so therefore, kids don't need at a very young level to be traveling internationally and different continents and with the huge expense of that entails. If you can be playing a very high level relatively close to where you live, then that's fantastic. And I would like to see that as as a model really for the rest of the world to follow. But it involves expense setting it up in the first place, but you're right people involved as a local level Inspire. And if you look at any subject, I mean, I look at subjects in the past at school, which I didn't like Latin for example, you know, if you have a teacher at the front that is inspirational, that is fun to be with that actually He puts across the subject with a passion and an enthusiasm. Even something like Latin can be sold to people that had no idea that had any interest in it. And that's no different between Latin and tennis, you need people locally, not those on high, instructing how to do it, you need to grow it from below.

Daniel Kiernan  45:20

And that for me, Andrew also comes down to when we talk about the cost I have is it most things when you live in Spain compared to the UK come down to weather. But it the climate is so key to that because you end up with hundreds of tennis courts outside which are relatively cheap, you know, in the space and people all year round playing outside. So now you can have tournaments that have 128 players because you've got them whereas in the northern European countries, the weather's so crap six months a year, you need indoor facilities and the indoor facility cost is so so high you know and that that becomes one of the big challenges as well.

Andrew Jarrett  46:06

No, I think that's right and you can try to play outdoors in in the winter boy do you need to be enthusiastic. You do

Daniel Kiernan  46:15

And and you end up you know what you develop which is which was me I you develop a good slice because that slice on a wet astro court doesn't have do its job. You know you it's good for slice backhands.

Andrew Jarrett  46:29

Here's here's the benefit of being older than you Dan you See, I was I was so old that I didn't play much on Astro dreadful surface.

Daniel Kiernan  46:38

It is it is dreadful. Well, that was what I was brought up on. And I'm going to take you to another comment that I like. So we've got two big football fans here. And by the way, at this point, I have to one thing you mentioned one of my best mates in the book Adam Baraclough. I was like I was reading it and I was like, I was like Adam Baraclough. Oh my God, he's made he's made the book. This is amazing. Even though he's a he's a Mackam, and we'll let we'll let him off. But you know, Newcastle, Derby, not not two hotbeds, you know, in terms of how we would how we would perceptually look at at British tennis. But you said Andy Murray, that he single handedly made the LTA realize that there is life outside of London. Explain.

Andrew Jarrett  47:30

I think there's always been this perception of the north and the south. And certainly my generation would have felt that the northern counties were not seen in the same light as the London counties, the home counties. We had a county week at Eastbourne, we were a yo yo County, we sometimes may group one we sometimes didn't. But one of the years that we played at East born, we were down there, and it rained all day Surprise, surprise. And what do we do? We went on the bit of grass right across from the Grand Hotel or the small, and we had the game of football. And it was perfect, because there were three county counties that were from the south and three from the north. So we have north east south out there, it was wonderful. And there was definitely a feeling of us against the southern counties. And certainly back in the junior days, anybody that came from the provinces, felt that they had to go to London all of the time, in order to progress. So you would have your local tournaments, but the national tournaments tended to be in the South, the National Training tended to be in the south, there was a preponderance of players from the south as opposed to the relatively few that came from the north and from Scotland.

Daniel Kiernan  48:43

Has that changed?

Andrew Jarrett  48:44

I think it's got better. But where's the national tennis center? Where's Wimbledon, they're all based in the south. So it will be very difficult, I think for a player to become an international player without going south of Watford could I think a player that was born south of Watford could could become an international player without going north of Watford debate.

Daniel Kiernan  49:07

Yeah, well, I know and I look I think it's it is but I think there's also a perception that and, and there's a one actually he's from your neck of the woods, Billy Harris. So I think Billy Harris is more either either an East Midlands, East Midlands lads and Billy's up to 280 in the world right now. And what Billy's done is he's East traveled in a campervan. And for the last eight years, you know, he's traveled around a bit by bit. He's got his ranking up. This shows he's managed to he's made a final of a challenger. He's beaten a couple of top 100 players in the world and I know that when the conversations are coming round to opportunities, he's almost that I guess what he represents is not what a British tennis player is representative of you know, in that That for me is, is a perception and an image that we've got to try and change. Because, because for me and if you're listening to this Billy fairplay to you mate, because you've, you've kept going, and you're doing a great job, but what Billy does for me is very representative of a South American. A Spaniard you know, someone who, you know, on the continent, too, is, is finding ways in this in the sports. And I still think there is an image of a British tennis player of someone who receives funding who has things quite easy, who all only play if they're picked on certain trips and receiving, and that might be might be the wrong perception that I've got. But I think it's something that we have to have to look to make changes on. And I just thought it was interesting that that had been somewhat addressed in the book with the comment about Andy.

Andrew Jarrett  51:00

Yeah, I think tennis is an individual sport, I think we we must get away from that. There are as many individuals in the world as there are people in the world, and you've got to find the way that works for you. And if that means doing it tough, and it probably will, because tennis is tough. You're fighting those brutal statistics every single day, or 50% of the people who play today will lose and will be out of the drawer. And will have nothing to do until next week, when they play again. And those stats are mentally very tough for any player to face. You're not in a team situation, you can't have a bad day and still win because she makes pull you through because you're actually out. And I think that that type of mentality means that you've got to be able to take those knocks come back again and again. And again.

Daniel Kiernan  51:56

I go to something Coco golf said, a couple of months ago, she said, I saw someone on TV that looked like me in Serena Williams. And that inspired me to want to be like her. And and when I go back to my tennis life, Tim, I don't know Tim Henman very well. But Tim is a lovely guy. He's always been very nice to me. I as a lad from Newcastle, I can't really look at Tim Henman, and be able to see me as Tim Henman. Someone from Newcastle. If I'd heard someone with a bit of a Geordie voice or someone with more of a localized accent, that would be someone who I would maybe represent with a little bit more. And Andy Murray, you know, and I think Andy is someone that maybe we haven't built on. But I would like to just see us like it. Like I say, I use the example of Billy Harris, you know, that someone who a kid at home can go well, actually, I can be like, I can be like him. You know, and I just what I'm saying is I think that happens in a lot of countries. And that is again, I then the second point I'd make on that Andrew is, and I've used the example of Surbiton. But I think it's the same at Davis Cup ties. It's a bit boring Wimbledon, I don't mind is Wimbledon special, and it keeps all its traditions. But it's quiet. Everyone's very polite, everyone claps you go to tournaments in Spain, it's set up for kids, there's bouncy castles everywhere, there's noise, it's late at night, there's beer, you go to America, people are making noise in the crowd. You know, there's music, it's, it's something that's attracting a little bit more to the sport. And I do wonder if we need to get out the dark ages a little bit in the UK maybe

Andrew Jarrett  53:47

Well, you and I both huge soccer fans. So therefore we both appreciate what crowd involvement can bring to soccer matches now, we've probably both of us been to many, many desperately boring sports encounters that have been hugely lightened up by the participation of the crowds. So that's why I thoroughly approve of that. And in the Davis Cup matches I used to referee. Yeah, that was something that I actually used to thoroughly enjoy. There'll be some hostile crowds, some difficult crowds, but I never really felt intimidated by them because I was so used to football. And so therefore it actually was almost like an extension of a football crowd. And there were people that are having fun. And I think we've got to be a little bit careful. And a few years ago, Davis Cup don't know if they still do it now, but they used to have these things called cheer sticks, and cheer sticks were these long, thin things that were filled with air and when you whacked them together, they made this noise you've probably seen them. And here we had the ITF promoting noise and enthusiasm by giving these things away to the crowd expecting them to use them, but equally applying Quiet please be very quiet during the point Don't make a noise during second service motion, all of this was coming out. And you know for sure that people that had a bit of devil in them, maybe a couple of beers inside them as well, armed with a pin on one of these cheer sticks was definitely going to let these things off right at the crucial second so that we almost had like the balance of the governing body almost promoting the very thing that they were themselves trying to stop. I think tennis has never quite found the balance between crowd participation and respectful silence satisfactorily in many places, as you correctly say New York. Totally different to Wimbledon. I love both. There's room for our sport to have both, I think. But it's not easy to police crowds in one particular way.

Daniel Kiernan  55:42

Yeah, Wimbledon shouldn't change. In fact, it's like you said it's built on tradition. And no matter what happens to the sport, Wimbledon should be all white. It should be traditional, in my opinion. But I would say there's room for the other events to go a bit crazy and do something a bit different and, and build the sport. But let's let's keep for that one for those two weeks a year. That's special. That's something that's I know, I hear players talking about it all the time. That's what they love about Wimbledon as well. But it doesn't mean that has to happen in in all of the other events. Anyway, Andrew, I've got a couple of things. Whilst I've got you one. I need to find out how I'm going to find out about the call from Wimbledon because we've had very similar life I now want to understand when you got the call from Wimbledon. I don't I don't get it reading the book. I was like well, hold on. He's he's coaching he's obviously doing all right for himself. And then there's this call comes in to say hey, maybe we'd like you to be a you know, be one of the next referees or officiating at Wimbledon. And I guess the question that jumped in my head is why would you go through that next few years without a guarantee? And and move away from the coaching? What was the pull? What was the pull to take you from a successful coaching career into dedicating your life to now being a referee?

Andrew Jarrett  57:13

I think looking back on it, we've actually touched on it all the way through is actually the appeal of Wimbledon, the magic of Wimbledon, the draw of Wimbledon. And right from day one, when that first telephone call took place, in the back of my mind, even though it was never promised. It was never anything other than we're starting the process, we'd like to open that opportunity to you for you to explore if you choose to. I was always aware that the opportunity to one day perhaps be involved in a critical role at Wimbledon was one that actually I wanted to, to progress. So that's why I took on the risk of it. And there was considerable risk because the officiating world can be brutal, can be tough. You're only ever really one major mistake in a public eye away from the scrappy because it's very difficult to come back from that. If you walk on Centre Court at Wimbledon and you make a clear, clearly a howling mistake. And you're ridiculed in the world's media. It'd be very difficult for any major tournament including Wimbledon to actually stick with you on that. Chances are you're rolling one year contract would finish. So therefore there's a huge element of risk about moving into officiating anyway. Little financial reward. Not many people are getting wealthy through tennis officiating, but you're doing it for different reasons. And for me, the number one reason was the opportunity or possible chance that one day I could be involved in a critical role at Wimbledon. Fortunately for me, it happened but it was a bit of a leap of faith and you're right in identifying that.

Daniel Kiernan  58:52

A referees mistake. I was at Roland Garros last week, my boys were actually playing their third round match after a woman's doubles match on caught 14 Last Sunday. And as you do waiting for the next match, and this is the other unique thing about tennis, you could be on in 20 minutes or you could be on in two hours. You know, you're there you're thinking right what's what's happening. And the dreaded thing happened the score stopped at one set to one team three one the other way to the other team. And I think it was 30 all and the score just completely stopped. The which you start thinking as a coach what's going on, you know, texting the guys that just keep your eye on it. There's something happened. We all turned the TV screen on and the Japanese girl I don't know if you saw it but Kaito the Japanese girl who then went on to win the mixed doubles later. Under the week, which was a beautiful story, as as turned, not even in anger, and hit a ball to the other end of the court, and it's hit the ball kid in the neck. And the opponents who should be it should be disgraced that themselves have made a big play with the umpire to let the umpire know the ball kids crying, they're pushing hold on the can't do that. The referee is then called the referee has come on, and has defaulted. The girls. I guess two things. One, what's the referee making that decision on? Is the referee making that decision on just completely going with what's in the book? You know, how much is is free for interpretation? And is that the sort of thing that this poor referee at French Open now could be could be in trouble and looking after his or her job?

Andrew Jarrett  1:01:02

Well, first of all, I have sympathy for an awful not all people were involved in that incident. I think there are a couple that perhaps need to look at themselves a little bit carefully. I don't like the idea of players actually pointing out discretions from the other end. With possibly those two exceptions. I think they're I have sympathy for all parties concerned. For various reasons. You asked about the ruling on it? Well, first of all, was the ball hit in anger? Well, you can debate that. And that is not necessarily true. But crucially it is in the eye of the chair umpire initially, and then the referee that then comes on court. So was it hit in anger? And also was the person hurt? Because if the person was not hurt, well, it's code violation at best. But if it was hit in anger, and it was a situation that caused damage caused somebody to be hurt than a decision needs to be made. So I think a decision needed to be made on this one, you can question whether it was such an anger? Was the hitting frustration? Was it merely passing the ball down to the other end? You could argue all of those three, depending on your point of view? was a person hurt? Well, she was she was crying. So there's that side of it. But then, for me, every rule book should actually start with number one rule, the most important rule in any robot, any subject is usually common sense. And that I think, for me, might have helped me in the situation, I'm not going to criticize decisions. That's not my role. But I will say, I think all of these you need to use your common sense first, aided and abetted by the rulebook and using your personal judgment involved. And I I'm, I've had other situations and again, I don't particularly want to contact comments on the Cato Institute, it would be unfair of me to do so. But I think in other situations, try and put yourself in the mind of the players involved. What was the intention? I think that for me, gave me a bit of an advantage. I was once upon a time a player. I know what it's like out there. I know what it's like to have the frustrations involved. And I can most of the time make a reasonable judgment between what is intentional, what is unintentional. And what is anger? What is frustration and what is accident?

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:29

But are you able to see video, are you able to see video footage? Because that's the question for me. I guess as a referee, you've got 14, 18 courts that are happening. You can't see everything that happens. So are you I don't know what it was like maybe when you was 2019. So four years ago that you stopped. But do you know nowadays is the referee or even back four years ago, were you able to request video review of what happened? Because if not, I guess you've got to try and create what's happened by speaking to the chair umpire and people around

Andrew Jarrett  1:04:08

The referees at a huge disadvantage and in as much as nine times out of 10. They have not seen the incident. Yeah, if you've seen the incident, you're much much better informed that the referee has to go on court. The first port of call is going to be the chair umpire you listen to what the chair umpire tells you. If you feel the need to you then speak to the players. If you feel the need to you then speak to line umpires to in this case markets and then you come to a decision. It's a tough decision to default player, I would need to be convinced that it was the right move to make in order to pull that trigger. Because being a player is involving many, many emotions and for the most part, players are in control of themselves, but occasionally they lose control that I'm not convinced that players will ever cause deliberate damage. Maybe it's happened very, very occasionally. But it's very rare. And so after that, I think you've got to be very careful about pulling the trigger in a tough situation like that. It's not, it's not easy. But the crucial thing is that a referee doesn't see the incident. And I'm sure the referee at the French didn't see the incident

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:21

And isn't allowed to see the video.

Andrew Jarrett  1:05:24

Well, then comes to the practicalities of it. If he were to say, look, everybody, there's actually probably wasn't a huge crowd watching. But nonetheless, the crowd that was watching there would need to sit there, the players would need to sit there, the officials would sit on court, the referee would go inside, ask for a video to be shown and come to a judgment that way. Yes, it would help make the decision. But actually, that's not the reality of it. And that's on a court where they have the facility to have video. Most referees in most situations doesn't even exist. So do you have one set of rules for one court and another set of rules for another?

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:59

Did you ever default? Anybody at Wimbledon?

Andrew Jarrett  1:06:01

Ah, not at Wimbledon? No, I did I have defaulted a couple of players. But yep. It's not a step that anybody wants to take. But what have you have to be done? It has to be done.

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:13

You weren't around for Jeff Tarango.

Andrew Jarrett  1:06:16

No, just before my time. Yeah, that was a that was a classic example. Because there's a there's a wonderful photograph of him actually raising two fingers. I like to think he was asking was his first serve or second, but it might have been different.

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:31

As as a referee it, did you enjoy it? Did it? Are you able to enjoy the experience I was there too much going on?

Andrew Jarrett  1:06:42

If I'm honest, I would say that any role is referee, particularly at Wimbledon is an enormous challenge. It's a little bit scary. It's a little bit exciting. It is very satisfying when it finishes at the end. And you've had a successful Championships where people are not talking about you and the officiating, they're talking about the tennis. And so it is that challenge that is the motivator. Enjoy, I'm not going to go with that. I don't think it is something that you can enjoy, because you're only ever five seconds away from having to deal with a major incident. And that keeps you on your toes all day, every day for a long time. What I can say is not the day after, but two days after, I often got ill because the body had collapsed and relaxed to the point where it allowed yourself to become semi human again. Because for the duration of Wimbledon, you were totally immersed in it. I don't sleep much anyway. But during Wimbledon, I was down to a very few number of hours a night. And even those sleeping hours might well be occupied with thoughts of what I had or hadn't done what I had to do the next day and getting prepared as best as you possibly can. Always trying to keep a sense of humor, always trying to keep a smile on your face trying to appear relaxed and calm. Because people need to feel that from you. In order to have confidence. If you're running around, and you're looking like you're panic stricken, you can have thoughts going through your head as much as you like. But you need to appear to be in control and in control of all of the situations but planning ahead thinking and exerting a an impression of calm authority.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:34

Well, you certainly did that. Andrew, that was something that came through loud and clear. So a big well done on that because it's not easy, but not to be negative. But it's a bit of a negative question. What was the biggest mistake now that you reflect back on your time? Is that an error you made? That maybe you regret? Or? Were you just perfect?

Andrew Jarrett  1:08:58

Well, I would I would like to sit here and tell you the time was perfect. But unfortunately at some stage, my wife is going to listen to it. So she's not going to allow that to happen. Mistakes. Yeah, actually there was there was one where I learned from, and I think it was actually probably in my first year as referee. And it was on the Friday night before the Saturday play. Now you'll be aware that at Wimbledon, it's very important to set up the order of play so that the singles events stay on track so that people don't get behind in the draw particularly between what was then the end of the first week on the Saturday and the beginning of the second week, which was a Monday. We no longer have the day's rest on Sunday, but Saturday was very important. You needed to have all the singles players in the bag and finished and in the draw ready for Monday. Otherwise it had knock on effect into the first part of the second week. And I'd done the order of play on the Friday night for the Saturday and this involved, an absolute blockbuster of a match between Andy Murray and Andy Roddick, third match on Centre on the Saturday, and it was a cracker. And I put the order of play to bed and then waited to see what was going to finish. And unfortunately, I had Mario Vrancic and Stan Wawrinka, that didn't finish on Centre cCourt on the Friday night. Now convention means they come back second on the same court. And everybody around me was saying, that's where it's gonna go. So I thought, right first year, we'll learn Don't rock the boat, I went with it. I did not sleep that night. I knew it was wrong. And I fortunately was able to and decided I had to call an emergency meeting the following day to come together to debate this order of play. What we eventually did was a bit of a shuffle elsewhere and it went to court one, we did shuffles elsewhere that accommodated made room for possible matches, couple of doubles, matches went to TBA to create the necessary room on two and three, in case third on one needed to move. Sorry, this is getting complicated. The bottom line was that Murrray and Roddick was saved. And all of the matches finished almost Saturday, and it came good on a Saturday night, I did sleep very well on the Saturday night. But that mistake that I made was not to trust my own judgment, I was being told that it was the right thing to do. I knew it was wrong, but I went with it anyway, I should have trusted myself.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:28

Very good. And to get that insight, because that's what people don't realize is what goes into those order of plays, you know, on how many connotations and knock on effects and, and also, I guess public interest, then gets into into bigger picture things. And we've seen that at the French Open, you know, recently, over the last couple of weeks, and we're getting this statistic thrown and our faces that the one one time in two weeks the prime match the night match that happens on Chatrier here at the French Open was a woman's match. And each other time it was it was a men's match. So how how do you how do you do that? How do you take those things into account? Because you know, there might be you might go well actually these three matches men's matches right now, the matches people want to see on Centre, but I've got it, we've got to have a quality, we've got to make sure that the right players have been looked after. And the sport of tennis has been looked after. How do you how do you take all of that into account.

Andrew Jarrett  1:12:42

There are tennis issues, and there are a wider world issues. And sometimes the wider world issues have to take precedence over the tennis issues, you might argue the case on that. But actually, that's the this is the modern world that we're living in. And to that extent, I think we are all learning to live with what are seen as being the new rules of engagement. And I think the order of play is quite a good example of that. In our case, at Wimbledon, we have an awful lot of people having input to the order of play. So that would include the media, the tours, the players requests, entourage, Entourage is etc. All of these requests are coming in. And at the end of it, you make the balance judgment, taking into account rules of engagement of the day. And that has changed over the last two or three decades. But you end up having to get something that you can defend with goodwill and a belief that actually what you're doing is the right thing for the tournament.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:49

A good umpire or referee shouldn't be seen or heard. What do you think of that statement?

Andrew Jarrett  1:13:57

In a perfect world, it would be absolutely correct because what you always want is at the end of the tournament for people will be talking about the tennis and not about the officiating, and you can choose any sport you like football being a classic example. And too often the talk is about referees and officials and the decisions that they're making. And we all really want to watch top level sport played without the interference. A referees role and a chair umpires role is to encourage and allow the players to do their job out on the court and to provide the platform for them to do so. However, we know it's a combustible sport. People have strong opinions, people can be very loud in those opinions and things will happen. And in that situation. You need officials to be able to step in and step in strongly if necessary, but hopefully in a humane, quiet, calm way that allows the decision to be made and for the match to continue.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:58

I mean I've been following him now that I've been traveling the last few months. It's Lahyani, the the, the, the umpire, and I saw him in Turin. And I was like, Oh my God, this guy's got charisma he's got, but it felt like he was. It was his show. How is like, and at first, I quite liked it. But then I then heard Novak Djokovic, in Rome. And I don't know if you saw this, but Novak actually said, Hey, man, what's your deal? Like, I'm having a wait for you. You're calling the score out in so many different languages. It in such a such a different tone and voice. And are few people are saying that maybe maybe he's actually been miked up for Netflix. And this is maybe the way the world's going now as well that we're going to start creating officials that have actually got a bit of celebrity status as well. And I think that's going to bring a challenge if that the way without a doubt, Lahyani's going the way that he's becoming a celebrity. And that but I don't think the players are going to like that.

Andrew Jarrett  1:16:06

Yeah, I mean, first of all, Muhammad is a lovely character, what a gorgeous guy is we all enjoy him. And I think that I've been involved in teaching officiating schools in the past as well. And I think that the the kids that are going to these schools, look at the examples at the top end, as a young player, we'll look at the top players in the sport. So the young officials look at the top officials, and it's impossible to copy anybody. But I think you have to be your own person. Now, that doesn't mean to say that you go out there and you become a cabaret show. And they've been one or two examples, perhaps more in my day than yours. But there were a few cabaret shows out there that by enlarge, has gone. And I think the error today of the young professional officials is for the most part, very sound very sensible, very calm, very quiet, managing the matches in the way. So when you get one that shows a little bit of character, you know, Muhammad is clearly one of those that's coming into that category. Pascal Maria might have been another one in. He's retired now, a few years ago, and Pascal was another one showed a bit of character in the chair. Most people love that, but it will rub up a few the wrong way.

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:21

Yeah, that's it's really it's been interesting for me to see it firsthand. And I think the crowd loves it. And I think the players don't mind it until you we know what players are like when players, things aren't going their way. They'll look to pick it anything, any any that they possibly can, in that regard. My last thing before we got our quick fire round, I mentioned earlier, you've lived a rich life, you know, and it's an incredible life and, and I just, I love being able to share these stories on the podcast. You know, I've I've fallen in love with tennis over and over again. You know, at times I've falling in hate with tennis and found that what am I doing in this sport, this is you know, I think we've all been on our own roller coasters with that. But at the stage of my life, it's that kind of falling in love for what the sport gives us. When there's so many things now as someone in your position as a player as a coach, and then to go on in, in such a prestigious role. Wimbledon, you must have met a lot of stars, a lot of a lot of famous people, a lot of the royal family. So I just want to ask, is there one particular person that you've been the more starstruck with? That? You know, you get used to seeing all these all these different people. But is there anybody that come into your world where it's been like?

Andrew Jarrett  1:18:50

I think there's one that's actually moved into my world as a result of a chance meeting at Wimbledon when I didn't even recognize her. And a lady was brought up to be shown around the referees office by the current chairman at the time. And I wasn't really listening when the name was mentioned. But she was there with a delightful lady friend and the request was made. Can they have a look around the referees office? And because it was the Chairman said, You have no problem at all here. How many ladies and I gave them a quick tour around and showed them what we did up there, etc. and politely wished them cheerio, hope you enjoy the rest of the day and shut the door and turn around to a barrage of abuse from the others in the referees office who actually say, Andrew, why don't you introduce us? Right? And I'm looking at them in amazement. And I say well, what do you mean? Yeah. I said, Well, why did you know who she was? Don't you know? I don't know who said that was Dame Maggie Smith. And oh, I've heard of her, Professor McGonagall in the Harry Potter movies. Ah, that's the one. Okay. Yeah, no, I know who it is that I had to think quickly. I said, Well, yeah, but give me some credit. Yeah, yeah, she never played the derby. So she can't be that famous, you know. So that was the that was that was my way out of actually meeting somebody who has since become the me a huge star. And every time I see her on the TV, I think I've met her.

Daniel Kiernan  1:20:25

Absolutely brilliant. Any, anyone that positively surprised you? That maybe you weren't necessarily looking forward to meeting but when you did, you found them to be someone quite special.

Andrew Jarrett  1:20:37

Generally meeting superstars in the main, you just realize you're meeting human beings, they have the same hopes and fears, doubts and worries that the rest of us do. And if you're able to speak to them on a, not a starstruck basis, but actually just fine. Make our you Yeah, don't want it. Yeah, well, I have a look around, etc. And talk to them normally. They relate to that very well. Talking to the tennis superstars, one on one, I always found actually very easy. There was no problem with that. The difficulty came when you're dealing with some of the entourage. And that would be for other reasons, I understand where they're coming from as well. Because partly, I went through that role myself as well. So I understand the different roles that people in tennis have. But usually, if you can deal with players, one on one, stick to them as a normal human being on a face to face basis, explain what's happening, try and be normal, natural about it. And that word common sense, you know, actually just display some common sense about it. Most people react very favorably to it. And a smile and a nice Hello, how are you doesn't hurt to start off with as well. But I think if you're overly starstruck, and you're treating them with somebody that they're not, then you start to run into problems.

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:55

Or to 2019, which I know was your last your last Wimbledon, which was a special Wimbledon for your last Wimbledon as well. But I think we'll all still cry ourselves to sleep that Federer didn't manage to clinch that match. But I entered one because and made the wrong choice on a forehand. But anyway, we will get over that. That's my last last thing before the is what's next tennis. We've we've talked about a few parts of tennis. We know how amazing tennis is. We love it to bits. We're in the instant gratification world. There's Grand Slam seem to be thriving. You go to you go to all of these events. And there's people that are coming out of the woodwork to watch you can't get tickets. But tennis as a whole maybe isn't. You know, there's there's challenges along the way. So So what is next? You've been a man who's lived this amazing life. What is the next chapter for our beautiful sport of tennis,

Andrew Jarrett  1:23:04

In the beautiful sport of tennis, the challenges continue. I've watched with great interest about the the now happy marriage between LIV and the PGA, which I think is a very interesting scenario has been played out over the last year, I wasn't to some extent remain concerned about that possibility hitting tennis, I think if something like that were to come into the world of tennis that would present a whole new set of challenges, which could turn the whole thing upside down yet again, I think the challenges of equality will continue. And that's I think, is an area where quite correctly and I think tennis can hold his head up reasonably high in this respect. It has moved a long way down that route. But here's an interesting thing. The men playing five sets the ladies playing three sets, same prize money. That chapter has yet to be written and we'll see where that leads us. But that I think is something that is likely to become more of a surplus with certain aspects of the sport. I think that the challenges of the team competitions will remain where is Davis Cup going to go and also Billie Jean King Cup, the old Fed Cup, that the challenges of that will continue. I think there's an awful lot yet to be decided. One of the crying shames for me is the fact that the tennis governance is and has been for a long time very divided. So you can look at very quickly, the ITF the ATP and the WTA and the four grand slams individually providing seven authorities and that's before we start talking about the USTA Tennis Australia LTA, Deutsche Tennis etc. and regional associations Cosac, tENNIS Europe tennis Oh My work has a sport ever had more governing bodies? And getting that lot to talk together and come to agreement together is a major challenge. Is that alright? For starters?

Daniel Kiernan  1:25:13

That Well, if you could just make it make if you could come out of retirement, Andrew and just start making your way through that. That will be great. But it's been such a pleasure having you on. It really is and I and I urge people you know, to, you know, you will, we'll make sure that in the show notes, you can find out exactly where you can get the amazing book of Championship Points, you know, it is, it is a must read for anyone, you know, coaches, players, parents, for you guys to be able to, to feel these stories, read these stories, see things that you will be able to relate to things that you will be able to look forward to, you know, some people are at that point of their tennis journey, where they you don't quite know yet all of the amazing opportunities that are going to come your way. So stick at it, get yourself out there and get that book bought. And are you ready for the quickfire round before we move to the end, Andrew?

Andrew Jarrett  1:26:13

I will do but I'd just like to say just on the book, I would love the readers to feel that I'm just sitting there having a chat with them. I want it to just feel it's a gentle conversation. Hopefully with a bit of fun involved. I love my tennis but I love the fun outside of tennis as well. And putting the two together means that I've been very, very fortunate to enjoy a wonderful career in different ways. But having a lot of fun along the way. I've tried to define or to explain what what it's like in those three different roles. What was what was it like to be a player? What was it like to be a coach? What was it like to be an official? It was my view it was my take on the subject. But as I say it's a gentle chat is it's a look back over 40 years, an enormous amount of fun. I can only recommend it to anybody thinking about doing it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:00

It's brilliant. It's very well written and we we are honored to have you on the show our first Wimbledon referee to come on Control the Controllables as well so are you ready quick fire.

Andrew Jarrett  1:27:15

Let's go

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:16

Underarm serve or not.

Andrew Jarrett  1:27:19

Why not? Its in the rules throw it in.

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:22

Serve or Return.

Andrew Jarrett  1:27:25

Return I could never serve anyway.

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:27

Forehand or backhand.

Andrew Jarrett  1:27:29

Backhand forehand was hopeless

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:31

Federer or Nadal

Andrew Jarrett  1:27:33

Oh, on the fence,. Naderer!

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:47

Wimbledon come on Wimbledon has to be Federer if you were if you were the French Open referee will give you will give you Nadal who was going to be the Wimbledon champions on the men's and women's side and 2023

Andrew Jarrett  1:28:00

I will go with on the lady side. It's tough to get past Iga. She's the one to beat. I think you just keep waiting for the big surprise to come and is it gonna is it really Coco's year, maybe you know, some time you kind of think it's gonna be and I'm a Safety Man. I'll get I'll go with the top seed, I think on that one. On the other one. If he's not going to break the record in Paris, and have a feeling he might not, I think it could be Novak at Wimbledon.

Daniel Kiernan  1:28:37

And so everyone knows, this has been recorded on a very famous day actually for us Geordies Because it was towards the ninth of June 18 162 on a summer's afternoon, the blade races. But what also is happening today is Alcaraz against Djokovic in the semi final of the French Open. By the time you listen to this, you know what will have happened. But Andrew, you've mentioned it, is it going to be the champ or is it going to be the pretender? Is it time for Alcaraz? We haven't seen many Alcaraz Djokovic matches so far. That's happening later today. Who's going to take it?

Andrew Jarrett  1:29:15

Well, I'm so much looking forward to seeing what I think will be a victim for a victory for the challenger. I think it's time that he took over in Paris. But I think the main man will come back at Wimbledon,

Daniel Kiernan  1:29:29

Electronic line calling or in person line calling.

Andrew Jarrett  1:29:34

Inevitably it's going to be electronic line calling its progress. In person line calling has been fantastic. Over the years it's provided many entertaining moments both good and bad, but progress means that it's going to be electronic.

Daniel Kiernan  1:29:50

The coffee and tea room will be a lot quieter though.

Andrew Jarrett  1:29:54

Yes, it will be yes it will be much smaller. I'm sure because I expect them well find other Other ways of filling up that much needed space?

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:03

And what's one rule change that you would have in tennis?

Andrew Jarrett  1:30:08

I'm a traditionalist, I'm not sure I would actually change. Actually, yes, I would, I would go I would revert the shot clock. I am not afraid I'm not in favor of the shot clock,

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:21

Five sets or three

Andrew Jarrett  1:30:24

for the end of major events, five, in order to keep the differential between the major events and the big events. And I think for the ladies as well, because we need equality at the end of the day, not for first, second, third rounds, but at the end of the events,

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:46

I believe there was 21, 21 Five set matches in the first in the first round of men's matches. In Roland Garros. Maybe even 30 Which for a referee is a ball ache to have to have that length, that length of time. So I can, I can completely understand that.

Andrew Jarrett  1:31:07

Jonathan has a very nice, nice lad. I like him a lot. If however, I didn't like him quite so much when he was playing Wimbledon because I was desperately hoping that three or three of the first four sets will actually go to one end or the other, being neutral.

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:23

Three and a half day matches don't work. Medic medical timeout or Not?

Andrew Jarrett  1:31:29

Not? If you're not fit enough. Shake hands and walk off.

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:35

I'm a grumpy old guy. If I had it my way we wouldn't have them at all. Andrew Jarrett,

Andrew Jarrett  1:31:43

Medical timeout, medical timeouts and toilet breaks

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:49

up? Let us know. Let us know. I like it. You let us know that in the book. What's your favorite ever sporting moment as a fan?

Andrew Jarrett  1:32:00

Derby County winning the FA Cup but I haven't seen it yet.

Daniel Kiernan  1:32:05

It'll come maybe I'll race you with Newcastle. And your favorite ever tennis moment as a fan.

Andrew Jarrett  1:32:15

I go back to my favorite match of all time it was between. And you'll be surprised on this one. Victor Eke Victoria, Australia and Dale Collins of Queensland, Australia. And you'll have to read the book to find out why.

Daniel Kiernan  1:32:32

Well, what does control the controllables mean to you?

Andrew Jarrett  1:32:36

Being as prepared as you possibly can? So if you are, if your preparation is very good, then he gives you more time to react to the unexpected.

Daniel Kiernan  1:32:50

Excellent. And who should our next guest be on Control the Controllables?

Andrew Jarrett  1:32:57

Nick Kyrgios

Daniel Kiernan  1:32:59

by the way, you're passing the baton. So are you You can only say that if you have the ability to get Nick Kyrgios on.

Andrew Jarrett  1:33:08

Ouch. I might say there's gonna be a considerable distance because my accreditation doesn't get to the same areas that he lives in these days. Well,

Daniel Kiernan  1:33:18

if you're unable to get Nick, who are you able to who's in your who's in your world that you can get on who's going to be the next guest on Control the Controllables?

Andrew Jarrett  1:33:27

Well, I'm staying I'm staying on the farm with me good mate, Dennis Archer, who has a stack of fantastic stories not just about tennis, but all sorts of other places as well. Again, in the book, I've mentioned eight great tennis champions. Seven of the most people will have heard of this possible one or two. Haven't heard of my mate Dennis. So get Dennis on he kept you entertained very royally.

Daniel Kiernan  1:33:52

Brilliant. Well, we'll be in touch. Andrew you're a star. Thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing. I have no doubt that the book is going to fly. It's a brilliant read. Get yourself a copy. And let's stay in touch. Enjoy watching Wimbledon from the comfort of your own sofa rather than the stress of waiting for what might happen next. And thank you for all that you've done in the tennis world.

Andrew Jarrett  1:34:17

Dan, you're very kind. Thank you for having me on. It's been a great privilege and a pleasure and keep up the good work.

Daniel Kiernan  1:34:23

Thanks, Andrew. And such a such a great story teller is Andrew loved you coming on to thank you so so much. And I just kept finding myself as I listened to Andrew but also as I read his amazing book and had the opportunity to read Championship Points in advance of our of our talk of just relaying those different stories and putting them next to my personal experiences. And I've said this for a long time actually that I think quite often we get role modeling wrong in the sport of tennis, you know, we role model, the, the untouchables, the generational talents, and then we often fall short to that. And then we feel like we have no low self esteem, we've got no self worth, because we don't have multiple grand slams in our pocket. And we don't have 5.5 billion followers on Instagram or, you know, the metrics that we hold the superstars up against. But what a role model Andrew Jarrett is, you know, someone who has come into the game, he's done it in an honest, honest, fair ways. Try these apps absolute best, you know, in every home that he's done, he's had a successful playing career, you know, more successful than 99% of people that play the game, that's for sure. You know, he's got to represent his country. And he's then gone and passed that back in to the sport in the various positions as someone in administration as a coach, and then the honor, the greatest honor of them all to, to run, the greatest event that we have on the planet, and certainly the greatest tennis event that we have on the planet, which is Wimbledon. And to do that so well. And I'm sure we all have those images of Andrew, you'll see them on some of our social media platforms over the next couple of days, as we advertise this episode, as well, if Andrew stood there, the big Wimbledon logo behind him, as he's coming on, is he gonna Is he gonna pull the players off for bad light? Is he gonna allow it to continue, you know, as we always see the dreaded referee walking in, absolutely loved hearing his stories. If you want more of those stories, and this is not a shameless plug, there is nothing in this for me at all. I just genuinely enjoyed reading this book. And I also genuinely believe somebody like Andrew, is who the tennis industry should get behind. You know, you can learn, you can take away you can be entertained by Championship Points. And if you want a link to that you I'm sure you'll be able to find it on all the Amazon retailers. But also, we'll put a link on there on the show notes as well. So enjoy that. Andrew, thank you for coming on. I know this is not something you've done lots of and we feel very honored that you have come under control the controllables to do so. And we have been talking about Wimbledon, the Wimbledon referee, but I do want you all to know, the French Open Review is on its way it's been recorded. It'll be with you in the next couple of days. And it is an absolute cracker in I've been fortunate to get panelists onto the show. And I've been humbled to realize that actually, I do have a network and I've never thought of it like that before. But you go through this tennis journey. And you don't quite realize how many people you're meeting. And and you know on how they share the same interest, the same passion as all of all of us do about the sport. And I've had brilliant people on the panel. But I said to the team last night after we spoke I sent a message on our WhatsApp group. And I said I honestly believe this is the perfect cocktail of panelists that we've had and I genuinely mean that, you know from Gabby Dabrowski Emily Weberly Smith, Kieran Vorster, Piotr Sierzputowski And my final guest. He's been there from the word go, Freddie Nielsen. He's been on all of our panels. They do a brilliant job. They talk about so many interesting in well needed subjects. Many of you reached out to talk about the preview before the French Open. It was a great event. And it's a one that you don't want to miss. So look out for that in the next couple of weeks. And certainly, make sure if you are enjoying these podcasts, just give us a like, give us a rating give us a review on your podcast platform. And keep getting in touch. We want to hear from you. Who do you want to hear next? What are we doing well, what can we do better? This shows for you. And we want to hear from you throughout the next the next few weeks. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables