#186 Dave Miley on How We Can Improve Tennis For Everyone

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 186 of Control the Controllables. If this is the first time, you have listened to control the controllables I'm Dan Kiernan, and it's an absolute pleasure to welcome you to the show. There's 185 other episodes that you can listen to, after you've listened to today's guest, Dave Miley,

Dave Miley  00:33

I think tennis teaches you, if you want to have success, you've got to be ready to lose sometimes. So sometimes you're gonna make mistakes, sometimes things are not gonna go exactly as you think. But if you are scared to do things, you're never going to be successful.

Daniel Kiernan  00:47

And Dave, after 25 years working at the ITF, he's been heavily heavily involved in the world of tennis he's someone who is not afraid to challenge the status quo. He's got strong opinions. He's had big successes. He's an Irishman who you'd love to have the craic and have a beer with. But he's also someone who is not afraid to sit in a boardroom and put his opinion out there. And all for the love of tennis. That's where his passion lies. And that's what he's pushing through now as he's working in Kazakhstan tennis that has emerged as one of the most successful tennis countries over the last few years, whether that's on the junior circuit, or whether that is also professionals coming through as your Rybakina Winning Wimbledon last year, Bublik and there's many names that are starting to make their way through. And Dave shares it all. He shares his experiences, we delve into many, many subjects, that anybody that is a tennis fan, anybody that's involved in the world tennis will love to hear about. And I'm sure you will absolutely love this episode with Dave Miley. Dave Miley a big welcome to control the controllables How you doing?

Dave Miley  02:19

Thanks very much. Pleasure to be here. Nice to see you.

Daniel Kiernan  02:22

And as you just said, they're off air. It's not easy to hit a moving target. You know, I've been trying for a while Dave, you obviously been moving way too much. So what's been going on?

Dave Miley  02:33

Well, you know, I'm tennis director in Kazakhstan. Now. I've been there for the last. Well, it's just over two years. And it's very interesting. You know, we have pretty good tennis, I think 10 players in the top 100 singles and doubles, ATP WTA. And some pretty good Juniors. So I can tell you about that later on. But yeah know, it's very interesting role. And I will say that after running for ITF president is likely to shower. I feel clean again, I'm actually working in tennis instead of politics. So it's quite nice.

Daniel Kiernan  03:03

Well, there's, there's all of that, that I want to get into dev. But I think as with everyone that comes on the podcast for me, I always think it's fascinating to know where where the passion is born, you know, it's like in someone like yourself, we've we've not crossed paths really. I certainly know a lot of people that know you and likewise. But one thing that really does hit me is you are a man that has a strong passion for tennis. So Where Where did that start? What was it that really got you attracted to the sport? Take us back all of those years ago.

03:37

Okay, well, it's interesting. So I was, you know, I'm a bit complicated guy because I was born in South America. I grew up in Jamaica. I studied in the States. I live in London, and I'm an Irish passport holder is a little complicated. I'm living in Kazakhstan. But my my grandfather played Davis Cup for Ireland. He was on the first Irish Davis Cup team and he and his brother played Wimbledon, in 1927 and 1910. So I came up I grew up in a tennis family my father had been quite a good tennis player and well reasonable player. So I got into tennis in Ireland because we've moved back to Ireland. I play tennis at the local club and Ballyhide became a pretty good Junior eventually got a college scholarship to the states. Play college tennis for four years in South Carolina. We were pretty good team came back to Ireland was top 10 ranked for a long time when we were in the world group of Davis Cup. And then decided after seven years of university because I spent four years in Ireland sorry three years in Ireland four years in the states studying three degrees. To my father's disgust I decided I was gonna get involved in tennis because he was an accountant. I thought I should get into accountancy or law or something. So I started in tennis. I was working in Ireland as a coach eventually moved to have my own Indoor Tennis Center and just outside London with a team of coaches working for me, I bought the center. I didn't have any money, but I found a way to buy it, eventually sold it. And then in 1991, the ITF asked me to join the IETF. But in the meantime, what I did and this is where my real passion came from. I was like a mosquito trying to get information. So I went to the European coaches conference representing Ireland worldwide conference and eventually managed to get to Germany and Sweden when they were the top nations. They were dominating tennis at 88. And I went to ball stat, so the way the Swedish train went to Germany, Hannover, so they were training, so I learned a lot. And eventually I felt, you know, I knew maybe a reasonable amount. I'm still learning at the moment, every day's a school day. But it's, yeah, so that was my passion. And eventually, with the ITF, I worked for them, traveled 140 150 countries. So I was involved in every area of International Tennis development. And yeah, I've got a passion. I think it's the best sport for building life skills. So many reasons why tennis is a great sport. teaches you so much. Yeah, I I'm passionate. I think it's a great product. And that's why I ran for ITF president when I left the IETF because I really think tennis is fragmented and not focusing enough on tennis issues. But anyway, that's how I got into tennis. That's my passion. My, my family. And by the way, my, my grandfather's as the first Davis Cup count. So the first involved with the first Irish Davis Cup team after independence, I did 23 They played India. Okay, they won for one, and then they played France. And the historic significance of that, that was the first time France had the Four Musketeers playing together in 1923. and Ireland lost four one. So that's my history. Okay.

Daniel Kiernan  06:40

Brilliant. And in terms of a key influence, was there a key influential person along that journey that you could pinpoint and say, if it wasn't for this person, I would never have gone on and done what I've done in the sport.

Dave Miley  06:55

Well, you know, there's so many people who influenced you along your life, your first coach, you know, different people and stuff, but probably don't McCurdy who was the director of development for the International Federation, he saw something in me and asked me to join the IETF in 1991. It coincided with the breakup of Soviet Union and former Yugoslavia and I visited all of those countries over the next four or five years. But Doug taught me a lot about tennis administration about tennis in many ways, and I learned a lot from him. And he eventually went to the USTA as head of player development I took over as director. So Doug was probably the most influential person, amazing kind of person, coach, trainer, and I traveled all over the world, which then I continued on the work that he had done. So yeah, probably he's the most influential person. But there were many people that I met during the years worldwide coaches conferences, by being around people you pick up so much, whether it's with Fiscal Service or top tennis coaches. Yeah, so I've been lucky. But Doug, is probably the most influential person from my tennis career.

Daniel Kiernan  08:01

And is there a point in going I was thinking about having this conversation, Dave. And as I stress it, I don't know you. But I obviously you've heard a lot about you. I've, I followed, I followed your work. And the question came to me, have you ever been content? Is there ever been a moment within the sport that you've had a feeling of contentment? Or have you always had a feeling of right, what's next? I need to now move this. I need to shake that I need to.

08:38

Okay, that's a good question. Look, there's been lots of great moments, but probably the best moment was in 2010, at the at the ITF AGM, when they approved the rule change for 10. And under tennis, I took 10 years driving this rule change where we brought in a rule where you couldn't use yellow ball and 10 and under competition, and it was really you know, it's the fifth rule change in the history of tennis. So I had a big impact on that. So that was a huge achievement. Other thing was really very good was the combined ranking that Luca Santilli and I brought in in 2005 for junior tennis, because that had an impact and cascaded all the way down through all the Federation's so everybody uses singles and doubles rankings combined. But here's the thing. You know, I learned this from people like Dennis Fannie Mae or Nick Bolleteri, people like that. If you want to stay young, you have to have a passion, you want to do more stuff. If you if you're too content, you just get old. So I joke all the time. I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up. I'm 63 years old. I still have a lot to do. I think in tennis, I still want to try to make an impact. So that's what I feel is you know, it's funny, I remember bigger at the champions dinner when Nadal was champion. Okay, so he was presented with the award and they asked him what motivates you in tennis. I always remember him saying something Like, you know, every day, I tried to get a little better every day I try to improve on tennis, but I just every day is. So that's kind of, I'm not comparing myself. Every day, I'm trying to learn a bit more about tennis every day, I feel like I'm learning. And every day, I'm trying to do a little bit more. And yeah, that's it, I have stuff to do. And I hope I have the time to do

Daniel Kiernan  10:22

it, because it's it's this, like, I, I've picked up this this concept of life being a continuum, which is, which is what you're basically saying. And, you know, it's just a kind of continued journey where you're trying to get a bit better, whether it's playing, whether it's coaching, whether it's in administration, meeting or whatever it might be. And I think it's such a good message for junior tennis players as well, you know, who gets all caught up in something being so, so important in that in that very moment and unable to perform? You know, having that perspective and that Outlook, you know?

10:59

Yeah, absolutely. That's it. That's it. And that's what, you just keep trying to get better. And also, you know, what's the definition of mental strain, but definitely definition of mental strength for me is staying in the moment and playing the next point. Because that's what Nadal does. Next point. Next point, next point. Yeah. And that's why they're so strong. You know, no matter what the score is, you keep trying keep playing the point. And that teaches you stuff in life. You know, when you get a bad call in life, you can deal with it, when the conditions are not perfect, you can deal with it better. You know, you learn to always do your best, even if you're losing and that's the life skills that come from tennis that really other sports don't don't teach you. I use this example. Sometimes we parents just show the difference between tennis and soccer. If in soccer, you push a player and the referee doesn't see it. It's not a moral dilemma. Nobody's gonna call you a cheat. But in tennis if you call the ball out, even if nobody's umpiring, okay, it's it's you learn that's not right. Yeah. So I'm just giving an example that this is just one example why our sport teaches you a lot over the time that you play it.

Daniel Kiernan  12:03

But is it also important though, that we do allow those times of momentary contentment? You know, like, so like you say, you pushing through these rule changes a couple of glasses of wine, celebrate that success?

Dave Miley  12:17

I do it. I do it all the time. You know, I mean, for example, this year with our Kazakhstan, I don't know whether you follow but we are 14 and under team. We qualify for the World Finals, beating Australia in the Asian qualifying. And then we finished fourth. We beat Italy, Argentina, Slovenia, and almost beat USA in the semi finals. And that evening, you know, finishing fourth, I was like, wow, that was amazing. And yeah, I had a couple glasses of wine. And I reflected on it because of the first time ever. Yeah, that was very satisfying. You know? And, yeah, you're right. You have to, you know, enjoy the moments, you know, smell the roses during the journey. And yeah, my I've seen a lot of things. And, you know, I've seen an ITF when our players on the ITF team won Junior Wimbledon or junior grand slams. You know, it's fantastic. Or, you know, we're like coaches conference when it finishes. And you had all these top coaches, 850 coaches in Mexico in 2013. fantastic speakers. And yeah, yeah, you've got to enjoy those moments. And, you know, the other thing is, I think tennis teaches you, if you want to have success, you got to be ready to lose sometimes. So sometimes you're gonna make mistakes. Sometimes things are not gonna go exactly as you think. But if you are scared to do things, you're never going to be successful.

Daniel Kiernan  13:37

Absolutely. We got to put yourself on the line. Yeah. And yeah, too many people don't. Yeah, I guess a little

Dave Miley  13:45

bit like that. Put our hand right there president. You know, it was funny. A lot of people thought it was a bit crazy. And maybe I was, but I had the support of a reasonable ordinations. And I did my best to try to put forward a tennis manifesto that was based on, you know, players, tournaments and working together for the good of tennis. I'm glad I did this. Okay, I lost. But, you know, I brought things on the table that I think were important. And that kind of made a difference. But I tried.

Daniel Kiernan  14:14

And I want to move you into that. Dave, because you said something earlier you said it's nice. It's nice to be working and just focusing on tennis, rather than focusing on politics now. i The only chance I get to watch Netflix shows is when I go on long aeroplane journeys without my kids. I've got three kids with no chance of they're on the plane. And I downloaded the FIFA program that came out three, three documentaries all about the presidency of FIFA, which which is somewhat eye opening. I think a lot of us have seen it. Obviously FIFA are extremely high profile. We've got the World Cup going on right now. Tennis granted isn't quite as high profile, but ultimately the ITF play one of the rules that FIFA does. So tell us are we? What? What is the situation within the IETF? What was your role? What was your challenges? Why was it so political?

Dave Miley  15:12

Well, it's interesting. Okay, so I'm going to tell you a very interesting story. So, when I ran for President, I decided 2018, because a few nations approached me and and said that they would support me, okay, so, around March, while I was doing my campaign, the people who had run and in Santino's campaign, successful campaign, which was viro, calm, they approached me and asked to manage my campaign. So actually, it was really interesting. So I managed to negotiate down their price, because I don't have the budget of somebody like in cantina, but they helped me a lot, because, you know, they helped me with my putting my manifesto together being really professional and all that sort of stuff. So, but I won't say who said this, but one time, and towards the end of the campaign, when things got a little bit difficult in terms of people, you know, raising things that, you know, were difficult to fight, you know, not dealing with the things I was putting forward, but maybe some personal attacks on me, was the guy who was very successful in tennis said to me, Dave, you've been picking the grapes for 25 years. And now you want to come up here and drink the wine, get back picking those grapes, because the presidents of the Federation's, they drink the wine, you should be picking the grapes, it was an interesting comment. And so, to a certain extent, people didn't want somebody raising that the top 300 men and women should make a living, they didn't want to raise the fact that African tennis is really struggling, that the grandstand should invest more money in development. They didn't want to hear that. But it's true. Because it doesn't make sense, for example, that the player one eight in the world is losing $80,000 a year, it cost them 200,000. And they make about 130 in prize money, so nobody wants to hear that. And I wrote an article recently, maybe only my children read it, but it was called do numbers speak louder than words. And the article was basically to say that in the top seven organizations, ITF, ATP WTA. And the four slams, there are 4400 people making a good salary. And then if you go to officiating there are 1600 International officials making $1,000 or more. Okay, that's over 6000 people, there's only 130 men and about 120 women making a living? How is that possible? So what I was putting forward was things like, Come on, guys, let's try to work the seven organizations work together to maybe agree seven or eight things will be good for the sport. Let's try to make sure we find a way in the next four years that the top 300 men and women can make a good living, we can all put our heads together, that the players may be promoted more than the sport rather than their products that they were. So things like that. And so the political journey, you know, I traveled to 70 countries in four months leading up and I met with everybody and I talked to everybody I tried to explain. And I think that if the CEOs or the Federation's or the coaches, or the players were voting, I probably would have won. But I depend on the presidents and Federation's to vote. And to a certain extent, I think what I was saying scared them a little bit. Because people don't want to focus on these things. But they're very important the development of the game, the fact that young people are not watching tennis, if you go to a Grand Slam or look at the crowd, 90% or 80% of the people are over over 50 over 60. You know, so we got to think about this for the future. Anyway, interesting journey. And I'm glad I did it. But I'm telling you that it's not easy. Now, having said that, I am going to run again for the board of ITF in 2023. And see if I can because I nearly made it onto the board last time even though I lost the presidential election. And look, I think people are more, you know, supportive of that, because I think the ITF needs some really good tennis expertise on the board. Because the ITF should be leading with the Grand Slams with the major nations should be leading more tennis. And it makes no sense to me that the Olympic tennis event gets no ATP points. Davis Cup and Fed Cup gets no ATP points. But ATP can give points to the United cup, for example, there's just starting. It makes no sense. It's not right. You know, tennis was the only sport of the last Olympics, it didn't count the Olympic sporting event for ranking.

Daniel Kiernan  19:40

So everything you're saying Dave everybody that's listening to this and there is there's 140 plus countries that listen to this podcast, you know, 1000s of people, not just my children. So once they have you'll get more than your children listening. Now, but but the question is I don't think anybody is sitting there saying, well, that will be bad for tennis if 300 People made money or that would be bad for tennis that, you know, points, points would go to the Olympics, you know that people that they're quite common sense comments that you're making. So the question that comes in my mind is why all the powers that be the presidents of these organizations, not wanting to make those changes and not wanting to hear that?

Dave Miley  20:34

And, you know, one time there was a guy called Joseph Brown, famous coach from Czech Republic, who moved to Canada was national coach there, he said to me one time, Dave, the obvious isn't, is often the greatest secret. And so these things are obvious, okay. And by the way, you know, there's a lot of great tennis presidents out there. Challenge is, I don't think they get the information in front of them. And they change over quite quite, quite often, you know, like, somebody becomes president for two or three years, and they change. And so they're not getting the information given to them by the IETF, the ATP, WTA, and the slam, so they don't really have it in front of them. They don't see what's wrong with the game. And even to a certain extent, the players when they come into the sport, they love the fact that around the slams, they don't see what's going on. It's only actually, at the end of their career when players like Djokovic, and Pospisil people like that they see that something's wrong. And so for example, that Djokovic is right, the players need a union. Dan, you cannot be an employer and a Union at the same time. So ATP WTA, their employers, they run a tour that employs the players. So does the slam so does the ITF Davis Cup, Billie Jean King Cup? So they needed a union to negotiate the terms with all seven organizations? It's normal. Yeah. So it's not you know, you can't be a union and an employer. So Jovovich and these guys are right. And you might not know this, but in 2003, Wayne Ferreira tried the same thing. But he was he was put down, you know, so players at the end of their career, they realize that something's wrong. So anyway, I think I'll be

Daniel Kiernan  22:08

Its gone very quiet though. The PTPA. It came out and I'm not convinced the communication was that strong in terms of getting getting the point across of what they were there for. And then it feels like there was this big US Open. Well, here we are, we've got a picture on center court, and then it's gone quiet again. Why why is why is that gone? Quiet again, why is that not pushing, pushing through, because I agree that but that we need something, but we need to understand what it is and, and what the intention is.

Dave Miley  22:44

Because those sort of things scare people because it it can change the status quo. Because if the players are having strength to negotiate things, things can change. At the moment, it looks like they have power this player Council, but actually the ATP board make most of the decisions, you know, the player Council. Look, again, I not, there's great people in all the organizations, it's not for me to say like, I know everything, and they don't know, what I'm saying all the time is guys, let's just get together these great minds, let's figure how the sport work differently. For example, maybe it will be good to have a Pacific Oceania, Pan America and Africa circuit. So three different circuits, which are sponsored by the sponsors in the different regions, with the best players coming through to play in the big tournaments, maybe, you know, but maybe not. Okay, so But surely this is something different that can be put together, which generates income. So for example, if you look at golf, you have the US tour, the European tour, you have a tour on South Africa, there's a Japanese tour, there's a lot of different tours, which gives the players a chance to make money with the best players coming through to play the majors. Okay, and as a result, we'll be looking at golf, there's probably about 400 or 450, men making a very good living, you know, so I'm not saying we have to accomplish all, but it's just we got to be able to look at other things. And at the moment, people are not very open to any sort of change, because remember, this status quo is generating 4400 jobs in the top seven organizations. And it's actually quite quite good for them. I'm not sure they really want to make changes. And probably I'll be criticized for saying that.

Daniel Kiernan  24:36

But the seven, so the seven organizations, the ITF, ATP WTA, and the four grand slams, who, who holds the cards, who's the who's the most powerful of those seven?

Dave Miley  24:51

Well, they're all working very much independently. I mean, the Grand Slams combined are probably making 800 million profits between them. ATP WTA doing okay, although there's a struggle times for WTA, with China and everything like that, and ITF with Davis Cup, BJK Cup, so everybody's working independently, they all have their spheres of influence. But the biggest power, in my opinion is the ranking. So who holds the ranking has the power? Yeah. So ATP was the, you know, and WTA hold the ranking because of historically, there was a, you know, back in 73, I think it was when ITF allowed them to take the rankings, not understanding, I think the significant significance of it later on. But the ranking is very important. And, you know, that's why ATP can give ranking points to the ATP cup or to the United cup, and not give to Davis Cup, BJK Cup and Olympics, it makes no sense. And actually, it should be a revolution against that. It's not right. Yeah. And then there's negotiations around that, because ATP allow the Grand Slams to have 2000 points, their tournaments have 1000 points, etc, etc. So there's a lot of negotiating all that.

Daniel Kiernan  26:11

And then the ITF tried a few years ago, the transition tour and, and I guess, negotiated with the ATP on the ITF points, what did you What did you think of that?

Dave Miley  26:22

Well, it's, it's quite interesting, because I call it back to the future, because basically, they changed went to transition tour. And then they went back to exactly what was there five years ago. So right now is kind of what was there before, although they're starting to add a few things like these 40k events coming in. But the points basically went back to what was there when they started the transitional tour. So look, I do like what they've done in terms of the world tennis for amalgamating juniors and the old branding and everything like that, it's really good. But I think they could have been more creative in terms of what they what they do. For example, like I said, some regional tours to be possible that might create more opportunities for the players to make money. I'll give you an example. There's probably 40 cities in the world that would like to have an ATP 250. But they can't get it. Because the ATP limits the number of 250s. If there were more 250s, more players would make a living, okay. But the reason they don't allow more 250s is because if they do, the asset value of the ATP 250s will drop. And so the people who own the ATP 250s, at the moment would not be able to lease them out to other countries for big, big money. And also they would not be able to sell them. So again, here you have a situation where the players would like more tournaments, because they'd have more money. The cities around the world want to have an ATP 250 can't get them to have the sponsors. So not good for tennis, good for the people on those limited number of ATP 250s. But it's not right. So Astana, we were trying to get an ATP 250 for 10 years, eventually, we got one because China has less tournaments and stuff, but it's not easy. Okay, so I'm just trying to share with you and I don't think that's in the interest of the players.

Daniel Kiernan  28:14

Not at all. Not at all, I think that that's the I guess it wasn't? Well, I say it wasn't that long ago, it was 17 years ago, but as a former player of some level and coach, it's very, very clear throughout the levels, it's not about the players, you know, the players are very much a very much pawns within that within that within the business. And you know, when you start comparing that against some of the other sports and where the revenue goes and you know, all of all of these pieces of information, when people start to scratch under the surface a little bit, it certainly seems like there needs to be some some change. But if I can just for a minute, if we can play a little bit of a bit of bit of roleplay, you are now the ITF president, Control the Controllables holds the power, and we've put you in that position. What's What's your first three things that you would do for the betterment of tennis?

Dave Miley  29:14

Well, I said that what if I, you know, my manifest, the first thing I'm gonna do is I would call the meeting of the grand slams and the major nations, the nations that don't want to be WTA tournaments and have a conference to see what ITF and these major nations of the ITF think should be the future of tennis. That's the first thing. So all these you know, 40% of the tournaments on the ATP tour are owned by Federation's Monte-Carlo, Italian open, etc, etc. They're owned by Federation's. Okay, so, we figure out what we want. We want to see ITF and the major nations and try to have some sort of alignment between the ITF and these major nations including the slams on certain issues. That's what I do, but I wouldn't want to go into more More detail right now because my plan will be to try to run for the board next year. And I just think this is I don't want to be controversial what I want to do is say that I want to work with people to try to put on the table, good ideas, I have some other people have some and to try to be confident enough to change the status quo but if it's good for the sport. But for me, the first thing is to bring people together and then the next stage would be ATP WTA involved to see how can we all work together and players and you know, what are some things that would be good for everybody agree seven or eight things and let's all work together on those things that are good for the sport increase the pie so everybody all the seven, all the Federation's Make, make some benefit.

Daniel Kiernan  30:43

And, and in terms of tennis, you know, again, throughout this podcast, we've, I've had this conversation to various degrees with with many different people. And I guess one of my takeaways over the last couple of years having these conversations is outside of the grand slams, there is a danger that our sport is dying, because, you know, there's many layers to our sport, you know, we're talking here about professional tournaments, but you then start going down into academies to clubs to, you know, the whole ecosystem, that is that makes their living and has a passion for this sport. You know, I was at the Davis Cup in Malaga. There was moments of, of magic. But the reality of the quarterfinal stage at the Davis Cup, is that the stadium was half empty, if not more, was is the reality. You know, we've got people now talking a lot about Paddle Tennis, pickleball. You know, there's other racquet sports that are coming in, you get varying degrees of the feedback on that, that they'll be good for the game of tennis, or they won't, because ultimately they're taking people, but in your mind is tennis potentially a dying sport if we're not careful?

Dave Miley  32:04

Okay, so in terms of talents, what I think people have to understand tennis is a product. It's a great product. But there's a lot of markets out there. And what you got to understand is if people are not buying your product, you better not blame the customer. What you have to do is you have to change the packaging, the content, whatever the price and stuff to make it more attractive. So for me, there's different markets, for example, there's young kids, baby tennis, there's 10 and under, there's teenagers, there's busy work people and the senior people have a lot of time, so you need to adjust the product. So for example, a busy businessman, maybe you need to have a product where it's, they can play in lunchtime in an hour, they can come and they can play two sets of tennis, short sets tie break for the third set and they're done. Okay? For the seniors, you need maybe longer more social stuff for ladies, maybe, you know, you got to adapt it. Okay, for teenagers, it needs to be punchy, maybe with some music, maybe boy meets girl, okay, so, all of these things, you need to look at tennis again and make it attractive and that's what pickleball and other sports are doing. You know, a sport that's really grown a lot is triathlon. Now. Triathlon is a very tough sport. Okay. But what does it have? It has great social. Whether you're the worst or the best, everybody socializes whether you're the worst of the best. People ask you, did you improve your score from the last time? Okay, it's boy meets girl, okay. And you create something for that sport? That's fine. It's grown a lot around the world. You'd never think it would have.

Daniel Kiernan  33:43

That's almost like you're part of a tribe. Isn't it? Your partner? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dave Miley  33:47

Here's what what I don't like about tennis. Sometimes in the UK, is an E. Remember, I used to own my own Tennis Centre is you go to the UK, and sometimes they ask you, well, you want to join but how good are you? Okay, whereas if you go into a gym, they're like, Oh, let me show you around. So, here's what I see in tennis is. Oh, how's Dan? Oh, he's rubbish. Oh, how's Dave? Oh, he's really good. But Dan might be a nuclear physicist, a very smart guy really entertaining. Okay, but okay, he doesn't play tennis. So good. That's okay. But Dave might be good at tennis was a terrible guy. Okay, so we judge people based on their level rather than as people and we should be more welcoming. You understand what I mean?

Daniel Kiernan  34:33

100% with Okay,

Dave Miley  34:35

okay. So that's why within the sport, it's your salespeople. Now, tennis coaches have to believe in the product if your salespeople I believe in the product is great, but it needs to be tweaked a bit. If that people aren't buying it. You need to find a way to adapt it so this is why I come back to what I did with the ATF I think pretty well with the plan. Stay campaign we recognized this I put a group together from all the country we came up with it The clients Day campaign the slogan was serve rally score. Why do we serve rallies are the slogan? Because Dan, what's the best real in tennis? The best real in tennis is headed over headed back and play a point. And how do I know that because if I put some players doing that with a red ball with a balloon with a yellow ball, I can go away for an hour and they come back, they're still doing it. Because every it's it doesn't mean you have to write down who wins. But the best part of tennis, hit it over, hit it back, play the point. And then the coaches are there to help people do that drill better. And so we need to make sure people are playing the game in a nice environment. But also the ATF we did some research on what adults want from sport. And here's the interesting thing that we came back and it was actually France, Netherlands and the UK did this research was and I hope I can remember it all but basically they want to improve. They want social. They want health. Okay, so they want to get healthy. Sorry, maybe missing one. But the last one was they want to do the sport when it suits them. So why is Jim cycling and swimming popular is because you can do it when you want. Okay, the problem with tennis is often we say okay, club nights Wednesday, well, it doesn't suit me. Okay, but it's Wednesday. So we need to find a way to find the tennis can fit in with people's life because they're much more busy. They have more kids have more pastimes, more choice. And so parents have demands, so we need to make it easier for people to do and when it suits them. So I'm giving these as examples of, I don't have all the answers, but people have to be prepared to understand that the customer is never wrong. And what pickleball and paddle tennis are doing are they're hitting a lot of the things it's very easy to play straight away. Okay,

Daniel Kiernan  36:48

it's a big one. Fine. That's yeah,

Dave Miley  36:50

it's fine. It's social. But here's the thing you know, this is very easily okay at the AGM it I think it was 2009, I did my presentation. We had all the presidents in there about 100 presidents and I asked a question I said, Okay, hands up, who thinks soccer is an easy sport? And who thinks is a difficult sport? And everybody put up their hand? It's easy sport. Okay. So then I said, Okay, how many people think tennis, this is an easy sport, how many people difficult and everybody put up their hand saying it's difficult. Now, what I said was, tennis is a very easy sport to play if you use a red ball or a balloon or an orange ball. But of course, it's very difficult to play at the highest level. Now. I said soccer is a very easy to play sport, but it's very difficult to play Champions League its very difficult. Okay, so the point is that if the presence of the Federation's are telling people that tennis is difficult, and if the coaches are telling people tennis is difficult, you're not exactly selling your product. So for me, the whole thing is, it's it should be the first time people come to tennis, they should be playing the game, the first lesson, somehow they should be running around getting a sweat, because especially adults, when they come to tennis, and they come to tennis, when they're over 40, because they're not playing soccer any more they're not playing basketball, they're not playing other sports. They compare tennis with the sport they came from, and they're coming from an active and dynamic sport they need tennis to be active and dynamic in that first experience, in my opinion,

Daniel Kiernan  38:19

Yeah, that makes it makes complete sense. And my mind's going like 10 to a dozen right now because there's so many different different strands that I it's jumping off into. But if I if I try and put it into a little bit of a little bit more concise, there's, there's two things that jumped to mind really jumped to my mind and one. And they're the same thing. But But said in a different way. The majority of coaches that I have come across in my life. Now 42 years old, I've been around tennis to a decent level for 35 plus years. A level snobs they, you know, they call themselves they I hit the word performance. Guy talk to my coaches all the time about being beat be a high performing coach, regardless of who was on your court. Exactly. You know, that's, you know, but, but but there's very much this thing with Oh, no, no, no, I do not go on court with people like that. I am a performance coach. They're not the you know, there's there's very much this level snobbery that's in our sport. Yes, I agree. And I think that then links into the second bit that you touched on there, which is this whole thing of self worth. I definitely had it as a player and I've definitely experienced it as a coach and being aware of it and managed to override that. And that is this kind of self worth of, of almost measuring ourselves against the results we have on the ranking we have or the squad that we are in, you know we have it at Academy level, you know, and even we talk about red light go down to six, seven year olds, well, they now play with an orange ball. So they must be really good. And you know, almost measuring themselves rather than seeing the red, the red, orange and green as a development tool. Now, and I think those things coming hand in hand, because then as coaches, it's then the self worth of a coach is what I work as a performance coach. So then they automatically have this have this feeling it's an ego, or ultimately, and that spans across our sport. And I do and I do think, even when we start getting into the nitty gritty that and again, I'll talk about personal experiences, we the amount of players, we do a Friday match play, every Friday, I always have I've run the Academy for 13 years, we went through various things, but we wanted the matches to be recorded. So now it's UTR recorded, but it was always about we put the results on Facebook, you know, we did things that made them feel that it was a match. And I can't tell you how many players have injuries on Fridays over the years.

Dave Miley  41:12

No, no, no. This is for me a big thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  41:16

And that's, that's, that's that link into, you know, you know, what, how hard people find it. And I love your gym analogy, because how many people different people do you see in the gym that are just working their tails off? You know, it might be someone who is is able to do five press ups and then is collapsed on the floor. It might be someone who's able to do 5000 Pull Ups. There's such a various but everyone's in there and judging themselves based on just what they're doing. And in tennis, I do. I don't know what the answer is. But I do think there's self worth this judgment almost of you as a person based on your ranking level group. What team you play. Even if we go to adults, I used to work at Edgbaston Priory, new members coming in. They their self worth went down because they weren't in the little group of ladies on the Saturday morning playing at 10 o'clock. It goes across our sport. Yeah, there's a difference between tennis play and tennis competition. Okay. And it's very, very important. So tennis play to me is synonymous with fun. The word plays like fun. So tennis plays where you keep score, but nobody writes it down. Nobody says Dave is better than that. Okay, tennis competitions when you Right you've said you're better than me.

Dave Miley  42:35

Sorry. Okay, well, okay, but next time, okay. Then there's tennis competition, which is where when Dan beats Dave, we put it down, we write it down. So everybody knows Dan is better than me today. So some people don't like competition, but they want to play. So this difference in tennis playing and tennis competition. Now I like the scoring all the time. I want kids to get used to playing and not to be disrespected because I tell the players in our in our academy all the time, you get respect from showing you try always 100% Whether you're the worst player, people will respect you. They don't necessarily respect you because you win. There's a lot of people winning who are jerks, who are not respected. Okay, and who give up in the with anything. That's hardship. So this is what I tried to get through. And so the more competition now, in Kazakhstan, one of the battles I've had, when I got there was I found when I got there, people trained a lot but they didn't play enough matches. So now had to fight very hard with the culture. So now, I push people to do at least 65 singles matches a year, hopefully 80 matches. I've showed them what Casper Ruud, all the players buy, and I want people up around 80 matches to to win, loss, win loss ratio, playing different surfaces, different opponents. And that's how you develop your game. And, you know, you have a destination, which is kind of a ranking goal at the end of the this for the performance players. And they have a pathway, which is the tournament they're gonna play 25 weeks, and some of them make it some of them don't, but at least they'll give it their all. So coming back, this whole thing of getting people to see the playing the game is the nice part. And you know, I have the same thing when we do playoffs for national teams, the number of people get injured who don't want to play because I remember as a player when I played off or twice for Davis Cup and tough matches, oh my god, you know, yeah, it's really, you know, or playing in college when you're trying to play for your place. Those matches are tough. And you know what I mean? When you're actually playing in another country, nobody knows you. It's so much easier. So I know that so but it builds character. So this whole thing of the game of playing the sport. You know, Mike Farrell said it very well tennis coaching is not a sport. You know the sport is actually playing the game. So we you know, this whole thing of the the best part of tennis and hitting it over hitting it back playing the point. This is what gives people a taste

Daniel Kiernan  45:02

The sport is not hit in forehands with so many coaches think it is, you know,

Dave Miley  45:07

You know what I say to coach all the time is look, competition drives, play in competition drives, coaching supports. So people play tennis and you give coaching technical, tactical, physical or mental to help this player play the game better. And whether it's Federer or Nadal or Serena Williams, or Dan Kiernan, or Dave Miley or a beginner 10 and under player, you look at them, how are they playing? And then you give them some technical, tactical, physical or mental instruction to help that player play better. That's that's what it's about

Daniel Kiernan  45:39

100% Dave, I could talk tennis, but we need to have a beer or glass of wine. It's yeah.

Dave Miley  45:46

And I thought a beer came with the podcast.

Daniel Kiernan  45:50

It does it. It absolutely does. I, I owe you one or two of them. That's for sure. I'm ready. But we've talked more in world terms. And we've talked. Now I want to this next bit, I'd like to narrow down now there's, there's two countries and you've obviously been involved in lots of different places. But there's two countries that I'd like to talk about. And if to my mind, they're going to be quite contrasting. You know, when I think of Ireland, and I think of Kazakhstan, I think of two quite contrasting countries within the world, whether that's a mindset. Now, what am I the first place I want to go? And I know it's a place it's very dear to you, Ireland, and it is to myself as well, you know, I'm a Kiernan, you know, it doesn't take much to work. Yeah, you know, that the Irish connection, you know, I'm in the process of trying to get the passport. You know, so that bloody Brexit, but also, I am very proud of my Irish roots. Now. Now, one thing that always hits me in Ireland, and I'm sure at this point, the Irish listeners are going to be pricking their ears up. There's a lot of great people over the years that are in tennis, and you know, I've been fortunate to be around a lot of them. But the one thing that hits me, whenever I speak to the majority of people within Iris tennis, is they put a natural ceiling, on how good they can be. The one thing that hits me when I speak to you, Dave, is you don't put ceilings on things. So it would seem to me that it's a it's a marriage made in heaven, that that one of their own, to go back and bring this different mindset, this, you know, this international global mindset, you know, looking outside the box to really get Ireland onto a track of consistently developing international level tennis players. Now, I know a few years ago, you tried to do that, and didn't get brought back into the scene. So that's, I suppose setting up for, for you to jump in. And you tell me some of your thoughts on on Irish tennis. And I'd love them to hear if you were in that position. What is it that you would change in order to develop tennis within Ireland?

Dave Miley  48:16

Good question. So yeah, I did after I left the ITF I thought about getting involved and it didn't really work out for different reasons. You're right, there's, there's a sense of negativity in Ireland when I talk to people about Irish tennis, or it has been in the past. Oh the weather's bad here. The education is hard. You know, I always say do you think Federer didn't go to school? I remember back in when I was playing in the 80s. and Ireland was the same level as Portugal, Poland, in fact, sometimes better now, other than all those countries, they were beating them in Davis Cup and King's Cup. And so what happened, you know, people think all the weather's bad, but come on the weather's bad in Belgium. Oh, indoor courts. Sorry. There's lots of indoor courts now in Ireland, lots of them. The best players have access to as much courts if they want all the education Come on. Ireland still has 18 weeks of holidays. You know, all the other countries have education as well. Oh it's expensive. Come on Ireland is a very good economy. You know, there's sponsors out there if you if you really work and get them, et cetera, et cetera you know, so So I've no sympathy from that point of view and I've seen so many Federation's some with money that are not successful, some without money that are successful. You know, that just came out of Cyprus. You have Ons Jabeur coming out of Tunisia and knew them since we were very young. So it's about using limited resources effectively. So in all these Federation's you have X amount of of money, clubs, have money, parents have money, maybe their sponsors, etc. So it's about using limited resources effectively. So yeah, Ireland should have better tennis. Now, having said that, there's been great strides in the last two or three years. There's a whole new team involved in that board of our tennis Arla, they're really working well, former tennis guys. They're about to hire a new CEO who I think I'm sure will be good. There's great people like John McGann, Paul Casey, people like that. Connor as the Davis Cup captain, they're all trying hard, you know, and I think people, I feel there's good signs for the future. Now, Ireland is small, which is the big benefit. That's why Belgium does well, you can bring the players together, you can put them together train. So there's so many positives. For me, you know, I've got a great, it's my country, you know, I have an apartment right beside Fitzwilliam tennis club, I'm still an overseas member there. And I go back to Ireland. So yeah, I'm always open to help. I don't need any money from Irish tennis. But I do, from time to time, advise the guys to, you know, say what I think and I'm always happy to help. You know, what I say all the time is still I say it like a broken record, tennis development. And being a good player. It's not complicated, but it requires sacrifice. It requires sacrifice by the player, the parent, the coach, you know, they're not going to be able to go with their friends to things, they're going to have to practice, late, they're going to have to do things that are sacrifice, but if they love the sport, they're going to want to do it. You know, and so that's what it is. But it's not complicated. It's volume of training, intensive training, number of matches. You know,

Daniel Kiernan  48:23

My last thing quickly to say on that is mindset, mindset mindset. And it feels and this is not just about it, because I think there's other countries that will probably be similar, I would say, maybe Denmark, I would say, you know, I've had, you know, countries, countries like that, where there's, there's some money, and the sport isn't, isn't for competition reasons, you know, like, I've been in Spain, 13 years, you play sport to win here. You know, like, that's just what you do. You know, you're a member of sports clubs. And, and you you play to win, whereas it feels in Ireland. And to go back to what you said at the start. Dave, you said, your father was an accountant, and he was disgusted that you wanted to go into tennis coaching, and that I had a little smile when you said it, because that would be that would be my take, you've got to be a bit of a black sheep to go against what the status quo is. We had a player, I won't name names, but he was he was with us last year, that the academy did fantastically well really was coming on, I believe could could be a tennis player. But he was like, my parents, I've got to go back and I've got to go to school. And it was almost like this then defeatist attitude of, I'm not going back to be a tennis player, I'm going back to go to school, and maybe play a little bit of tennis, and it's just going to die. It's just going to die down. And then we've got another couple of players from Ireland that have come in, and they've always been treated like they're that this black sheep, these weirdos, these and it's a smile on my face. When you said that that was your your father had done a similar thing with you. That's a mindset shift. That's a big mindset shift.

Dave Miley  53:04

You know, I was at a conference about four years ago, a PTR conference where Jim Lehrer was there. And I got to know Jim really well. You know, he's one of the top sports psychologists and he's been on the podcast. Okay, Jim, I met in 1987. My first worldwide coaches conference in Majorca, actually,  and so I met him. So basically, he said, in this, this seminar, I said, guys, parents always say, oh, what happens if my kid doesn't make it? What happens? My kid doesn't make it. No, forget about that. Because what it's doing is it's teaching your kid more than ever learned in school, going to different countries, life skills, dealing with adversity, all those things that these, this was going to make you successful later, this one's going to make you different problem solving, dealing with adversity. You met you, I think, you know, that in my life, I had some tough situations. Sorry. Let me start again. So, in my life, when you know, when my wife died, my wife died suddenly, you know, it was very tough situation. I had three young kids and stuff. And I was traveling a lot. So it was not easy to deal with that situation. But you know, what I've been through in life and tennis and stuff, probably prepare me better for that than most people will be prepared. So this is the thing that Jim was saying that it's about, you know, you don't expect a kid to be top 100. If that's what you want. It's unlikely that's going to happen. You're gonna be lucky if that happens. But tennis can give you a lot, you know, us scholarships. There's a lot of things in your life that I can give you and teach these life skills. So this is a big, big thing, I think. And yeah, Jim, I think was was good. And so in Ireland, people have to get around their head around that because they're not they can still come back at 23 and do education or go into another role like Connor and Ireland. was a great player made a couple of grand slams, now he's working in business and doing very, very well, you know, so So I think yeah, it's a mindset. And I think, you know, Ireland has to look at all these countries that are successful, you know, Lithuania, Estonia, all these countries are probably less resources. Poland, Portugal. Okay. Better weather. Yeah, yeah, some are better weather, some not but, but a lot of it's about believing. And this is one of the things I've had to do in Kazakhstan a lot is to instill in the coaches the belief that they can be good, don't be self defeatist, the players need people around them to be positive. Now, that's not some bullshit where we are telling people that good if they're not, but for example, in the kind of former Soviet country culture generally coaches stop when a player misses they don't stop or the player does it well. And so I've been trying to get the coaches to really be a little more positive that when a player does well or if they lose a match where they played well, make them feel good because it's about building confidence maintaining confidence, you want people holding themselves up that they believe Come on, you can beat the Russians, you can beat the the Belarus players, you can be the Ukraine, all the players come around, come on, Kazakhs can be good believe in yourself. But you need people around that to do that. And so what I can bring to the table is I've seen around the world players coming through who you from countries that you wouldn't have thought could produce players. So it is possible. You have to believe And and in terms of Kazakhstan, going on your journey. What has been the standout culturally for you, and how much have you then felt that you've had develop and impact that? Okay, it's good question. So let me tell you this story, because when I lost the presidency of the ITF, about three days later, Stephen Martin called me and I don't know whether you know, Steven Martin, Davis Cup captain of Belgium worked at the LCA. So he's now the Technical Director of FIFA. So he asked me to work for FIFA. So long story, but I was going to work for them. And I went to Doha for a conference and I was sitting with Arsene Wenger and all these guys, but then COVID hits so it didn't happen. I was going to be traveling. I'm sitting around for three months London, no gym, nothing in 2020 and then the President of the Kazakhstan Federation called me, Boulat, and he's very rich guy, very successful businessman and he loves tennis. Okay, so he asked me would I come and maybe help them to put a system in. So I went during Wimbledon actually, because Wimbledon didn't happen that year. I went to Kazakhstan and then eventually agreed to move there in August 2020. The reason I moved there was because it was interesting for me, my first time in Kazakhstan was 1993 when I visited there after I joined the ITF, so I knew the region a little bit. But I saw 38 Indoor centers around the country that have been constructed a bit disorganized with the system, but a lot of potential so I decided to give it a go and travel around all the country got to know it pretty well. It's a huge country. It's the ninth biggest country in the world, four hours to fly across the country, to timezones, very different weather, it gets to minus 37, gets to plus 44, during the summer. Anyway, I got involved. But here's the thing that I learned from the ITF is that you need to be systematic, and you need to have a structure, but it needs to be respectful of the culture. So there's a culture in Kazakhstan, it's really it borders, Mongolia borders, a port is China, people are really Asian, much more than, say, Georgia Belarus and stuff. So the culture has to be respected. But what I tried to do is say guys, we have to respect the principles of volume of training, intensive training, number of matches and stuff. So we need to be systematic from that point of view. So that's what I've attacked. Coach education was very important setting up a structure and now we have, you know, baby tennis 10 and under 14 under program to give you an example, when I got there, there was no system for working with the best 12 and under 14 under players. So I set up something very simple, which is kind of we identified through the tournament's the best 15 Boys and Girls Under 12, 15 boys and girls under 14, we put them into gold, silver, bronze, gold, and silver came to the camps. Bronze, we're watching you, and we start moving them every three or four months so people can move up and down based on their results and stuff and we start helping their private coaches, guys, if you want to plan you have to play more matches, play more tennis Europe and try to help the coaches to do a better program. So quite it's not complicated but quite interesting. And that had an impact around the country. We have people going around making sure that coaches raise the standards and then implement a national conference where we bring in some good people I think, you know, her voice matches he came in last year we have a family unit coming this year. So a lot of different things but really just making sure that there was a good pathway people can see if your kids because and maybe tennis, maybe sometime you can play for the Davis Cup team or go to the Olympics in the future. There's a pathway, you know, they know what they have to do. So after two years, we're, I think having pretty good results, people have woken up a little bit to the fact that Kazakh players, we had three girls, and one boy playing junior slams is here, we have some good girls coming up. Now, we have some boys under 14, who did really well, recently, I've told you about the team event. So my objective that I play Spain is different to Spain is survival of the fittest and as a great competitive system. And you know that so people, if you become the best player, Jr, in in Spain, you're gonna be unbelievable. But every country is a little bit different, the Czech system is a little bit different to the Belgium system is a little bit different to all you know, but in the end, everybody has a system the Canadians, the Italians that has some sort of structure to it. And that's what I've tried to do in Kazakhstan. And I think it's beginning to work that instead of investing in one player, in each age group, we have seven or eight players in each age group who are doing the right amount of training, the right amount of technical right amount of sort of physical training, tennis training, number of matches, and let's see over the next three years, maybe two will be playing junior slams, maybe one will go on to professional, but there's there's a pathway, the culture, you know, I'm quite tough because it's what people say, oh Dave its Kazakhstan, It's not gonna work. Sorry. Don't say that to me. Okay, don't say that to me. Okay. It's Yes. Maybe you have to train at different times, because the culture, maybe the schooling, we have to respect that. But sorry, you still can play 20 hours a week, if you're 17 years old, you still can play 65, 80 matches a year, you can still do your education. So don't tell me. Okay, yeah, you're gonna have to sacrifice it's going to be tough. But don't tell me you can't do it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:55

It's massive, you know, having that. And I know I mentioned it, that's what I see the mindset in Ireland, but I can talk again, from my experience when I was British number one doubles player. And I remember 150 in the world, but the, the ranking I had to be to get into Wimbledon, was being 150 in the world. So I got there, you know, it. And I, one of my big reflections in my playing career, is I absolutely put ceilings on things linked to maybe a ceiling that was put on from the Federation. And that's something I've then taken into my coaching and my, you know, building a business and Academy is, if somebody says no to me, I just think, okay, I'll show you. This is this is absolutely possible. And that's, I think, why I enjoy speaking to yourself as well, David, I can, I can absolutely feel that. And I think, you know, having that mindset and having that. Absolutely. Why not? Why can't we achieve this? There's, you know, that's one of the that's one of the things I love about tennis as well, is there's not necessarily a selection. I know within within Federation's you selected for funding or whatever it might be, but the number of conversations I've had over the years, with, with parents where they've said, Well, we haven't been selected. So what Federation's don't select is going to be tennis players. The beauty of tennis is anybody can be a tennis player, you can do it your own way. You can do it, whichever which way you want to do it. And you can find your way. Whereas in football or, or many of these team sports, you are relying on somebody to select you to play for their team. And I do think that's one of our beauties of of, of the sport of tennis, is people can do it many different ways. And they can find their own route there. Anyone can go and sign in to the ITF this weekend in Portugal. Anybody

Dave Miley  1:04:00

I agree. You know, that is the great thing about tennis. And I'm constantly surprised by players who make it and players who don't make it. Some players that I never thought would make it make it and some players I thought for sure would make them they don't and you know what I mean? There's been a lot of cases that I've had this situation, I think you'll appreciate this. Sometimes we're designing wildcards. Okay, so, coaches, we have a wildcard group everything I my players, you're gonna walk out my friends, you go out and everybody's like unsure. Okay. So, you know, like, the first time I did this, it was very funny people are so I said, Okay, guys, get them to play a match and whoever wins gets a wildcard. And everybody's like, what? I said, we're not sure. So let them play. And when they tell the players what, and so it's very funny. I said, all we're going to know is who's best today. The next time the other player might win. But the point is that selection is interesting. So for the national teams, we have a policy now which is like this, when we're deciding who plays World Junior Tennessee. Jr Davis Cup or Billie Jean King cup. If the players have done enough to really justify selection, they're selected automatically. So if somebody is like 200 ITF, and they're under 16, they probably get selected automatically. But the rest, play playoffs, and they don't like it. And the coaches don't like it. But we're not sure. So let's see who wins. It toughens them up. So it's it's quite funny, but people look to be categorized, said, Look, if we're not sure, play a match. It's the best way, fairest way. This is what the sport is about. It's gladiatorial. It's gladiatorial. It's it shows character, you know, who's gonna win who's not going to win? And it is not, it's not that I'm going to look down on somebody because they lose, if they go out there and give it their all. Because sometimes, like right now, when I see the seven or eight players 14 and under, so they're born 2008. You know, some of them are doing much better than the others. And they will say, Oh, this plays? Well, let's see what happens. Because there's a lot more to tennis at the pro level than just motor skills, as you know. So will the people be actually able to travel 2530 weeks of the year will they like it a lot of things that are going to make the difference our players getting injured or not. So let's see what happens but kind of spread it a bit. Make sure people are again, light volume of training, playing the matches, etc. Let's see what happens. and my motto is Nobody comes to tennis, wanting to be an average player, they come in with a dream that they're gonna be good. Let's, let's try to give them a chance and see what happens and not to be too down on it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:39

There's, there's so many things we could get into we might have to have a part two at some point, because I have loved the conversation. Before we go to the quick fire round. My My last question is what what is next for Dave Miley,

Dave Miley  1:06:54

I said earlier, I don't want I want to do when I grew up, but there's always things you know, I actually, I started writing a book, after I left the ITF. I spent about a year doing it. And maybe I'll finish at some stage but it's a it's a travel and tennis book. Okay, it combines stories about tennis and stories about travel. You know, I travel so much I have a lot of stories, funny stories about traveling. And so I might try to finish that because I did a lot of work in it. But the problem with books, you know, I've written seven books in my time, the advanced coaches manual being the most popular one. And whenever you think you're about 60% finished, you're actually about 30%. So it takes a long time to finish and you never feel fully satisfied. You know, as you get older, it's I use the example of Picasso and by the way, I'm not comparing myself to him, but what happens even coaching I think a little bit is a bit like the artist you start off and you know nothing. Okay, so you're very simple in your approach. Halfway through your career, you've learned all this stuff about biomechanics and everything and you start talking about the angle the racket three degrees, whatever it is okay, and you get very complicated. Your best work is when you know all this stuff, because I really I think I know, biomechanics. Well, I know physical conditioning pretty well. I know technical language, I think maybe I'm learning all the time, but I think I know it pretty well. But now is the masterpiece because Picasso could have been complicated, but at the end of his life, he was so simple. And they were the masterpieces. So when I sit with really good coaches like you Dad, like with the family and with people have really experienced anger unfold, I'm always struck by how simple they are. They need to hit crosscourt more, they need to be more off the court first serves and you know, it's not so complicated. And for me, that's the big thing is I feel now that I have a lot of knowledge, but I know how to apply it in different situate with this player, I think you need this sort of communicate with this player something different. So I would like to feel like it use my expertise a little bit better. I say all the time to our fitness expert, our fitness guys and some of the other people. A really good expert is somebody who makes complicated simple. I'm very happy in Kazakhstan. I really enjoy my work. And I think I have an impact. But yeah, I think I could contribute in other areas. I think use my knowledge in a very simple and constructive way. Makes sense.

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:12

It absolutely does. And, and a big well done and thank you for all of your contribution to tennis as well, you know, and it's, I think, too often, you know, we go through this tennis life and we're going to try our very best and people don't stop and reflect and saying hey, who who do we thank and you know what gratitude we all to people like yourself that have led the way and and ask the right questions and put yourself in a position because because the sport of tennis needs that, you know, we don't just need people that are going to say yes, yes, yes, you know, we need people that are going to try and create some change. So thank you for that. And also I want to give you a personal thank you as well for you know, it was a brilliant chat, but that the power for me of the moment that you shared about your My wife. And and for me that message of, you know, we talk about tennis rankings tennis results, we talk about winning and losing. And we often throw out there and certainly a massive philosophy of mine is about life skills, you know, and control the controllables is something I've taken to heart over the last 20 years. But ultimately, when all is said and done hitting a fluffy yellow ball over the net, it is what has happened to our character and how we're able to use those skills, to develop relationships, to be able to deal with good bad experiences that are thrown at us and, and for me, that was such a powerful moment that I know people listening to will will take will take with them. It's something certainly personal to me control the controllables around tennis is easy, you know, but my mom was diagnosed with dementia four years ago. And and that was a real test, you know, how, how are we now going to as a family control what we can control? And you know that that those are the moments in life that really do they really do challenge us? So let me

Dave Miley  1:11:07

Let me let me tell you something that I think I say many times is that the work is the vehicle so tennis is the vehicle it moves you through your life. I'm lucky we have a really good vehicle. Okay. I'm moving through life with tennis. What's important is family, friends and health. That's what's important. If you don't have those, you don't have anything. But we're lucky we have a great vehicle. I think I have the best vehicle I've been moving in in a Rolls Royce tennis for the last 35 years. I hope I can keep doing that. Okay,

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:36

absolutely. We've got the quick fire round. Oh, really? Okay. Okay. Anyone that knows me Dave is smiling right now because tennis is a vehicle is subtle tennis is one of our big strap lines. So we're on the same page. Very quick fire round. What does control the controllables mean to you?

Dave Miley  1:11:56

Just those things that are in your control your effort and everything like that? Because you can't control how good the other player plays so just control how well you play and do the best you can see what happens.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:07

Davis Cup or ATP cup. Davis Cup, or is it united cup?

Dave Miley  1:12:13

I think Hartman cup was there. I don't know how the HP who are doing United cup because it's same thing. But okay, they have points now.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:22

We'll see how it is serve or returned.

Dave Miley  1:12:27

You know, these days the service are important, but you know, both are equally important. Sorry,

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:32

they have to be both in singles or doubles.

Dave Miley  1:12:34

I think seagulls Yeah. Because that's how you make your money stuff.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:38

Let's or no, let's no less. Roger or refer Roger from a Serena or Venus. Serena? What's one rule change you would have in tennis,

Dave Miley  1:12:54

I would play in the ATP and WTA I play off for one to eight with different prize money, different points. And then you have then you have a lot a lot of more atmosphere in the last few days a tournament. Great. I like making the cut in golf.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:09

I like it. And who should our next guest be on control the controllables?

Dave Miley  1:13:15

Oh, that's an interesting one. You know, who I think is, will be a legend to get as Doug McCurdy, this guy, who you know, Doug, I don't know what you had in mind. But Doug was I told you, the person who influenced me a lot has been everywhere in the world was US tape director player development. Unbelievable guy, you should talk to him.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:34

If you are able to pass the baton and put us in touch. This is how the podcast works.

Dave Miley  1:13:40

Yeah, no, I'll tell him you know that you're paying that much money. It's unbelievable.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:46

Just make sure you looked at the small print. Dave, I will be in touch. I'm gonna let you go. But okay, thanks, man. Absolute star thank you for. And as with all of our guests, a big thank you to Dave for giving up his valued time to come on and share his wisdom, His wealth of knowledge in the game. And as you know, I'm hoping I might even get to meet up with Dave, I don't know if I'm off to. I'm off to Indian Wells. So by the time you're listening to this, I will be in the tennis paradise. And it's the first time that I would have made it their age 42. You know, nothing comes easy in this sport. And you know, I've been working for 30 years as a player or as a coach. And I'm excited now to be having the opportunity. Working with Lloyd Glasspool and Harry Heliovaara. To get to go to these events, you know, to be around the best players in the world to be in the real heart of what is going on. And then to be able to share to share that knowledge with you. And also the players that we're working with at the SotoTennis Academy, and anybody else that wants it get in touch, as always, and let me know I will take my microphone with me. Let me know who you want to hear from who is it that you want to hear from in the world of tennis? And maybe even more important than that? What topics do you want to listen to? As for Dave, tennis is a vehicle. You know, we talked about so many different topics, I could delve into so many of them. But ultimately, a big philosophy of mine is that tennis really is a vehicle. It's not just about what is happening in the here and now. It's about what tennis is helping us achieve in the future. And anybody that wants to have a happy, healthy, successful, however, we want to measure that life, and you go along this tennis journey, you really won't go far wrong if you throw yourself at it. And that's what Dave's tried to do. Over the years. He's tried to get as many people into the sport as he possibly can. And then looking to provide the best opportunities, the best environments for people to go and Excel for people to grab a hold of their own destiny. And that's right, speaking my language. And I admire Dave, so much for that. And all of you out there that are on your own tennis journey. It's worth it. I promise you, you know, keep going. Keep persevering. You know, there's so much that you will take from this sport that will take you through the rest of your lives, you know, and it truly is a vehicle that we have for life. So thank you, Dave, for those words. And to the rest of you hope you're well enjoy Indian Wells, and also the hard courts in Miami before clay court season is just around the corner as well. But all the best to everybody get in touch. You know thank you for the ratings, the reviews everything that's been coming through over the last couple of weeks. Your support is much appreciated from the whole team here at Control the Controllables but till next time, I'm Dan Kiernan, we are Control the Controllables