Two People, One Tandem, No Regrets

Jerry Kopack [00:00:02]:
Welcome to Bike Life, a podcast from the Warmshowers Foundation. Here we celebrate our global community of touring cyclists and hosts who make life on the road unforgettable. Through stories, insights, and shared experiences, we explore the connections that fuel every journey. Whether you're pedaling across countries or welcoming travelers into your home, you're part of a movement rooted in generosity and adventure. Discover more and join the community at warmshowers.org now let's hit the road together. Hey, everyone. This is Jerry Kopeck, the host of Bike Life, coming to you from the Rocky Mountains of Breckenridge, Colorado. Today, I'm joined by James and Jane Hall, a British couple who've been bike touring together for more than 20 years.

Jerry Kopack [00:00:53]:
Over this time, they found their way through South America, Scandinavia, Iceland, the Balkans, Greece, Turkey, Morocco. The list goes on. We're going to talk about their choosing early retirement in order to travel more, what keeps them healthy and motivated after decades on the road, and the evolution of what they call their personal rules of travel. Guys, welcome to the show.

Jane Hall [00:01:16]:
Oh, well, thanks for having us.

James Hall [00:01:18]:
Hi, Jerry. Hi.

Jerry Kopack [00:01:19]:
Now, I gotta tell you, this is going to be a really fun discussion for me because it's the first time I've gotten to have guests on the show that I actually met while on tour myself. So for the listeners out there, the three of us met in, I think, September 2023 in either Albania or North Macedonia. Do you guys remember how we connected?

James Hall [00:01:40]:
Yeah, I think it was a Facebook. Was it Bicycle travelers. We were perhaps both in. Yeah. I can't remember if I'd asked a question about linking between two countries. And. And then we clocked that we were both in a similar environs, got in touch with each other via messenger, and we ever so nearly. You were going sort of the oppos direction.

James Hall [00:02:03]:
It's frustrating. We nearly had a sort of whole night together. We were hoping to get a beautiful wild camp on the lake just over from Lake Ored. That's in between, is it Albania and North Macedonia. And the. The flies were tremendous, weren't they? And then we couldn't find a wild camp and we ended up calling in at a hotel. And I think it was. It was only 20% more to take a rump than set a camp on their lawn, and by which time I think you'd already found a camp somewhere else.

James Hall [00:02:39]:
So we met the next morning and we had a good old chat next to some apple orchards.

Jane Hall [00:02:43]:
Plenty of apples.

Jerry Kopack [00:02:44]:
Yeah. James, I am so glad you brought up the flies because I had tried to put that of my mind for the last three years. But on the one side, I guess it would have been the, the leeward side of the mountain pass, the side that wasn't facing the lake in there was. It was dead calm, it was hot. And of course because you're going up a mountain pass, you only pedal so fast and the flies could. Could basically fly that fast. And I remember having moments where I would freak out and race up the path to try to get away from them and I would. And of course because I'm going up a mountain pass, I would eventually get tired and they would catch up to me and it was just the most maddening thing.

Jerry Kopack [00:03:23]:
Did you guys have that same experience?

James Hall [00:03:25]:
Yeah, yeah.

Jane Hall [00:03:25]:
I mean we're descending down the worst stretch probably so we had that speed advantage. But yeah, they were pretty bad when.

James Hall [00:03:32]:
Well, there's kind of three things particularly that don't show on your photos that you can forget. Why wasn't it a brilliant day? And flies. Wind and, and the altitude.

Jerry Kopack [00:03:43]:
Right.

James Hall [00:03:44]:
Sometimes on pick. Why was that day not going so well?

Jerry Kopack [00:03:47]:
Yeah, because you guys are going the opposite direction. Exactly. That's right. And you're. And you're right. Jane. We met in that apple orchard and it must have been I don't know how many kilometers of just flat road of just orchard. And I don't know about you, but I, I picked probably 10 or 15 apples and just stuffed them all in my frame bag.

Jane Hall [00:04:05]:
Yeah, three snacks.

James Hall [00:04:06]:
Scrumpin, it's called. Yeah, I think steaming apples.

Jerry Kopack [00:04:10]:
Is that, is that frowned upon?

James Hall [00:04:14]:
I'm sure back in the day you'd have probably got hung for it.

Jane Hall [00:04:16]:
Yeah, fair game.

James Hall [00:04:18]:
Really.

Jerry Kopack [00:04:18]:
So many now you guys are clearly veterans the open road. I want to talk about your longevity. So you've been bike touring together for over 20 years now. How did it start?

James Hall [00:04:30]:
Just sort of very gradually. We used to mainly be in climbing, rock climbing. Filled a lot of our trips and then with. I think we had some not very good mountain bikes, went on the odd overnighter. I've been poorly, had an operation, part of the convalescence. I think we went the Pyrenees with our mountain bikes. I think that was the first multi day foreign trip. Only five nights.

James Hall [00:04:58]:
But yeah, it really gave the bug. And then few years after that, winter's not great in England. Those who've been here will know it's very damp and dank and dark. So we hatched a plan of going across the southern coast of Spain, flew out to Portugal and then flew out of Alicante for A fortnight over Christmas staying in off off peak accommodation which was dir cheap, no tent, super, super light for the time of year and I think that was a two week trip and I think that was really made us think yeah we, we really like doing this so we, we sort of then built up roughly cycling around the Iberian Peninsula's teacher so we're very stuck with the school holidays so it either be a, a half term or again another Christmas trip, things like that and then that kind of expanded but with our work commitments it was never more than two weeks I don't think and then it might be jumping the questions a bit but it was about 2012 I think by which time we were in our early 40s chugging away at our jobs. I went to a lecture by a chap called Alastair Humphries. Yeah a lot of people might have heard of, he sort of read his books. I don't invented the phrase but he really popularized the, the term micro adventures. And halfway through this lecture I just thought I can't risk staying in my job to normal age to then do things I want to do, I have got to do something.

James Hall [00:06:33]:
So I went up to chat to him at the break. What was the best bit? If I could get six weeks off, what would be the best bit? Alistair? The Carreter, Austral and Chile. So I came out and I was telling Jane all that's great actually, right, it's straightforward, I'll take all my leave at once. You get about six, six, seven weeks normal leave working in the uk. I know it's a lot less for you slaves in the USA and Jane you, you can ask for a month off work, you asked for November off because of the Austral summer, we need to go over Christmas. I thought it was dead straightforward and James no, no, no, no, get grumpy, grumpy, grumpy. A few days of this went by and then she made a big mistake. She said one day, she said it'd be easier for me to get a year off than a month off.

James Hall [00:07:21]:
So this tiny crack appeared and I started hammering wedges in that. So taking that forward about nine months we were very lucky, we, we asked forward slash, told our work we wanted some time off and I secured 11 months off work and you had two terms and about nine months off work which led to then going out to South America and I've, I've read and I've heard of people who go on their dream long trip and one week in they're back on a flight home asking for Their jobs back. It was the direct opposite. We just hit the ground and thought, yes, this is what we want to do. And I kind of derailed, certainly me and I think you would agree with, on that trip.

Jane Hall [00:08:09]:
We planned to do a sort of six month trip from Cusco down to Ushuaia and then come back to Europe for three months. But we got to Ushuaia and thought, well, as you know, it's going to be harder to get back out here in the future. So we headed to the top of Colombia and came south again and spent the whole nine months in South America. And it's supposed to get it out of our system, you know, and then we would work normally, but that didn't quite pan out. It just made the itch stronger.

Jerry Kopack [00:08:36]:
You didn't get it out of your system. That's interesting.

James Hall [00:08:41]:
Opposite. If it was a feasibility study, it showed it was very feasible. Yeah.

Jerry Kopack [00:08:46]:
Now Jane, you, you're a teacher and James, what was your job at the time?

James Hall [00:08:50]:
I was a surgeon, urological waterworks surgeon. Within that stones was my subspecialist interest.

Jerry Kopack [00:08:58]:
Got it. Okay. And so you had spent. How long did you spend in. In Portugal and Spain to sort of give you that taste of, oh, probably,

James Hall [00:09:06]:
I don't know, about six, eight weeks over, maybe five or more trips.

Jerry Kopack [00:09:11]:
Okay.

James Hall [00:09:13]:
Doing about 4, 000 kilometers over that time.

Jane Hall [00:09:16]:
Yeah.

Jerry Kopack [00:09:17]:
So what changed in you, in your mindset when you were doing these micro adventures, as Alistair Humphries would call them, to more of these longer term, longer rides?

Jane Hall [00:09:30]:
I think.

James Hall [00:09:31]:
I think you'd sort of get about 10, 12 days into the. We're just getting in the swing of it, you know, Ass is possibly ceasing to get quite as sore each day.

Jane Hall [00:09:44]:
I think it's the rhythm, the whole attraction is the rhythm of. And the simplicity of your life when you're on the road and you've just got these few panniers with you, with all the things you need, wondering what on earth it is that you've got in your home. It's full of stuff that feels essential when you're back home and you just get into that simple rhythm. And then as James said, you know, you have to come back because it's the end of holiday. And also you, you know, you sort of can't really go to far from places. You could, but we wouldn't go to far from places for just a week or two. So if you want to go further afield, it's the need to invest a little more time as well.

Jerry Kopack [00:10:21]:
Now, were you both equally invested in this idea of South America, or did James have to put the hard sell on you?

Jane Hall [00:10:28]:
No, no, I was invested. He's forgotten. But I was at the Alistair Humphreys talk as well and. But. But the. This sort of Christmas holiday for me. I was leading a big science department and it wasn't the time of year I could get any extension to Christmas. Yeah.

Jane Hall [00:10:44]:
And I had at the time a really supportive boss who. I'd been ill as well, which sort of helped swing the sympathy vote, probably. But, yeah, we managed to get these sabbaticals and come back to jobs, which we thought we would be able to keep going with 20 years or something.

Jerry Kopack [00:11:00]:
Now, were you guys cyclists? I know James said you were climbers, but were you cyclists? And if not, how did you get into the idea of bike tour?

Jane Hall [00:11:09]:
So I hadn't really biked much at all as a younger adult. We started with a bit of mountain biking. We actually had a tandem for a while and that got me on a bike more. But then the sort of reality of being on the back of a tandem and all the sort of implicit problems of transporting it anywhere, we soon switched to single bikes. I think I then was managing to get a bit stronger on a bike and it seemed more possible that we could do this with luggage and make these trips happen.

Jerry Kopack [00:11:40]:
Now, I need to ask you, Jane, because I have friends who have ridden tandem bikes and some of them. People have called them divorce bikes. Now, any. Any emotions, feelings about that? Because, you know, when we're on the open road, we've been with our partner for years and years, we know them inside and out, but every once in a while you. We need a little bit of space and with a tandem, like, there's no space. Did you guys ever have any moments where, like.

Jane Hall [00:12:06]:
Yeah, I mean, I think we. We sort of early on, in the sort of ownership of the tandem, we. We secured some good communication strategies, you know, because obviously disastrous if somebody decides to sort of put a foot down and the other person doesn't. Going over bumps on the back, you don't see the bumps coming, so you get all the jolt of a rough road. So that needed some communication as well. Yeah, I think it's just the. When I was starting off, it was quite a good leveler of our pace and it meant we were cycling together. But you don't get the same view and you don't get, obviously, any sense of.

Jane Hall [00:12:42]:
You're in control of steering or brakes or any of those things.

Jerry Kopack [00:12:46]:
Got it.

James Hall [00:12:47]:
I think one of the keys to weaning away From a tandem for a couple is being very honest about sharing the weight. And when we went to South America, particularly at the beginning, you, you're quite chesty and weren't in fantastic health. We took a trailer on that trip and we just went, I'll take nearly all the weight because the most important thing is that we can cycle, particularly cycle uphill at the same pace because if one's not both, both members of the trip get really fed up with it.

Jerry Kopack [00:13:23]:
Yeah, yeah.

James Hall [00:13:24]:
And, and, and then, you know, as Jane got stronger, she took more of the weight and it still happens a lot in trips. You know, if I'm having an off day, Jane will have a bit more weight and we just really fine tune it. So we'll get to the top of the climb at the same time. Yeah, both as exerted but on, on

Jane Hall [00:13:43]:
unladen bikes we're very different in strength overall but we can make our pace match by distribution of the weight. That seems to work.

Jerry Kopack [00:13:54]:
Okay, so you talked about early retirement. I want to kind of touch on that a little bit. What does that mean for you guys and why did it happen?

James Hall [00:14:03]:
Well, I think I did force that one a bit. I enjoyed really quite a lot of my job, but a fair bit of it I didn't enjoy the very much the stuff that was a bit production line and I'd stare out the window in clinic and I just want to put my pen down and walk out of this building. And that was happening more and more. I thought this is not a healthy way to be. We, we both have well paid jobs, particularly being a surgeon in Britain is really quite well paid. All my colleagues at Winter didn't get enough money but they're so materialistic and sort of crunched away at the numbers and you never quite know how much you need to live off. But generally I think the answer is less than people think. And I just sort of started to become aware that staying in long term employment was no longer essential.

James Hall [00:15:00]:
And that made my desire to stay in clinic even weaker. So kind of joined it all together and took the plunge and resigned at the age of 50 from a highly paid, a well paid, highly respected job. Thought that I might do some sort of locum part time filling work. Haven't ended up doing much at all. James going to keep working for quite a few more years part time but within a year I'd shine the light.

Jane Hall [00:15:33]:
Well, I was still very much enjoying my job. It was all pre Covid and I was reluctant to sort of give up my career because I was under Pressure to join James in his retirement as I would have resented that maybe if it hadn't worked out. So it had to come from me. And I think a few pivotal things happened that just made me reflect on, you know, do more of what you really want to do whilst you can. Nothing's a given and you know, kind of we're all on borrowed time. So Yeah, I, about 18 months in I joined him and we went straight back to South America at what would have been the start of the next school year.

Jerry Kopack [00:16:12]:
What is it?

James Hall [00:16:13]:
As people say, we didn't, we didn't sell a dot com and come into a vast amount of money. We've been squirrels for sort of two and a half decades of working by that stage. Our cars have never been good. We had a slight penchant for campervans. I think it's been our only luxury item along the way. We were fairly lucky with this property. Living up in the north of England's a lot cheaper than the south. I say we were squirrels and it

Jane Hall [00:16:43]:
against the backdrop of new health circumstances in our early 30s, we haven't had kids and so, you know, we've had two good full time incomes and lots of opportunity to save money which we're now kind of able to enjoy without looking.

James Hall [00:16:59]:
You spent a lot of money?

Jane Hall [00:17:00]:
Oh yeah. We could have spent more money but we didn't.

Jerry Kopack [00:17:02]:
Yeah, well it's, you know, what we talked about before is what do you value in life? You know, it doesn't sound like you value material items like a fancy house or new cars all the time. Just it sounds like you value those experiences and that's what travel really gives you. Right?

James Hall [00:17:17]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Jerry Kopack [00:17:18]:
And so friends of mine in the U.S. they, they shared this, this acronym with me. It's called a dink D I N K and I didn't, I never heard that before. Have you heard this before?

James Hall [00:17:30]:
Yeah.

Jerry Kopack [00:17:30]:
So it stands for dual income, no kids.

James Hall [00:17:33]:
Yeah, it's dinky.

Jerry Kopack [00:17:35]:
Yeah.

James Hall [00:17:36]:
But yet on the end it's yet for those that are still fertile, dinky.

Jerry Kopack [00:17:41]:
Ah, right. So I want to talk about your rules for touring.

James Hall [00:17:48]:
Oh yeah, yeah.

Jerry Kopack [00:17:50]:
I'm really curious what this is, but I know that you guys have rules. So what are they and how have they developed over time?

James Hall [00:17:56]:
Well, it was, it was really, for the, the first big trip there was a lot of trepidation before we went and. Oh, I haven't, I haven't said. All our stuff's on crazy guy on a bike. Quite easy to find on crazy guy on a bike. J and J. Hall or just James Hall. You'll. You'll find me if you search on Neil Gunton's amazing site.

James Hall [00:18:15]:
So we, we did draw up some rules for them. So do you want the rules?

Jerry Kopack [00:18:22]:
Let's have it.

James Hall [00:18:23]:
Okay. Well rule one is be safe. That is obviously the most important thing. But you can lose sight of it. Not careful.

Jerry Kopack [00:18:31]:
Have you guys ever lost sight of that? Have you ever done something and like ah, shoot, that was.

James Hall [00:18:38]:
And if there's a busy road, we didn't fancy getting the bus didn't cycling down. We'd think, no, we're all on sess. Be safe.

Jane Hall [00:18:45]:
When you find yourself in those really busy bows with boys going past, juggernauts going past.

James Hall [00:18:49]:
Yeah.

Jane Hall [00:18:49]:
You shouldn't be here.

James Hall [00:18:50]:
And if you. Yeah. Find a bus or a different way. Yeah. And part of being safe. Oh, it's a top tip for people. And there's no point inventing this on the final day of your first long trip. Agree some words at the beginning when you're.

James Hall [00:19:10]:
If. If the other person sees a lorry coming the other way and a car's overtaking it and somebody's going to literally die, we say bail. Bail means you get in the ditch. It doesn't matter how horrible the ditch will be. Rambles. Bail is only used. You must get out of the way. So there's no discussion if somebody says bail you out.

Jerry Kopack [00:19:29]:
Okay.

James Hall [00:19:30]:
Yeah, there's a few other ones, but that's the most important. Have a key word.

Jerry Kopack [00:19:37]:
Have you had to employ that word?

Jane Hall [00:19:39]:
Yeah, yeah.

James Hall [00:19:40]:
You have never to a state that somebody ended up in sort of rubble in a ditch, but kind of knowing it was all right. But yeah, yeah, it's the lorries coming behind that have been on the overtaken. That's the really dangerous one. We, we have a little rear view mirror. So that's part of being safe. I've digressed. Rule two, Enjoy. Okay.

James Hall [00:20:04]:
And yeah, we have to remind ourselves of that quite often at times. Enjoy.

Jerry Kopack [00:20:10]:
So I want to, I want to interject something there, James. You've heard of Ben and Jerry's, the ice cream company, right. So one of the founders, Ben Cohen, he's famous for saying, if it's not fun, why do it? And I feel like that kind of goes along with that rule of enjoy. Right. Because if it's not fun, then let's do something else. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Jane Hall [00:20:30]:
Yeah, yeah. And sometimes you can feel a pressure that you should be doing a more difficult route or, you know, it's not hardcore enough what we're choosing to do, it's like we are kind of on a holiday, you know, it doesn't have to be miserable or grueling all the time. We like a challenge and we like to sort of step up and do what we can. But if you don't fancy going a certain way, like, you don't have to. And we sometimes give ourselves a talking to about that. Yeah, you can feel, you know, a bit of influence from what other people are doing and. Yeah, it doesn't matter.

Jerry Kopack [00:21:02]:
Okay, have fun. I love that. Enjoy. Perfect.

James Hall [00:21:05]:
Enjoy. Rule three is Jane is correct, which is very associated with Rule 4, which is James is correct. Unless it conflicts with rule three.

Jerry Kopack [00:21:16]:
Oh, I love that. I'm gonna steal that one. In my current relationship. That's. That's brilliant.

James Hall [00:21:25]:
Rule 5, other transport is acceptable, especially if it enables rules 1 and 2. So if it enables you to be safe and enjoy, get on a bus, go 200 miles down the road where it's not raining or the traffic's not awful, or you're not shit scared of bandits. Not that I don't think it really exists or something that wasn't working. Use Rule 5, other transport is acceptable.

Jerry Kopack [00:21:49]:
So what you're saying is you are not maybe bicycle traveler purists, meaning you don't necessarily have to connect the dots on a route.

James Hall [00:22:00]:
Correct.

Jane Hall [00:22:00]:
I think on our first South America trip, we got to a point, six, seven months in, when we had cycled every single bit of the route, we hadn't used any transportation and we found ourselves in Colombia. And James had been poorly. We were trying to cycle on, he was completely broken and we had to hitch for a lift. And you were really devastated. He was really upset that this was the end of us cycling our whole journey. And then there was a kind of relief then that poured in that actually, this is fine and, like, nothing's happened, like, no one died because we got in this car. But it was a mindset that had to shift because on the trip we thought we were going to cycle all the way between X and Y and didn't work out. And it was the right thing to not push that any further.

Jane Hall [00:22:47]:
But since then, we've had no qualms about the bus will get us to a more interesting place or it will get us through an unsafe area or something like that.

James Hall [00:22:57]:
We had a second trip back to South America. The first One was in 1314, second one sort of 18, 19 for five, six months. And that was very much following that philosophy of relocating in between areas of interest. We Generally love being in the mountains. We find the sort of flatter touring just not terribly interesting. And you know, if you finish doing what you want to do in the Cordillera Blanca, in the Cordillera y Wash, why not get on a bus to the next set of places you want to be? So yeah, I think we, we use 25 buses in that trip. Little jumps ahead and see, I don't

Jerry Kopack [00:23:42]:
have a problem with that either. Especially if you are someone who is maybe not retired, who has more of a finite time slots. Let's go and see all of the cool things we want to see and let's maybe not spend as much time on the boring desolate plains or the highways where it's maybe dangerous. Let's, let's skip that. I think that's a great, that's a great rule.

James Hall [00:24:04]:
So that leaves us with the final rule. Rule 6. Spending the absolute minimum isn't always the best thing.

Jerry Kopack [00:24:14]:
Tell me more.

Jane Hall [00:24:15]:
This comes from a Yorkshireman.

James Hall [00:24:18]:
Well, I, I, I'm not trying to be glib or brag with anything I've said regarding money and things during this, really like to emphasize that, but I think cycle tourists do have a habit of trying to spend the absolute minimum. And when you're chatting to someone, they'll be competing about how cheap their accommodation was or how cheap their meal was as though you've made a mistake staying in the one that cost, you know, $2 more. And I think it's quite infectious and we particularly, I do most of the choosing about where we're going to stay, have a habit of book, trying to book the cheapest place and we'll get there and it might be. And what have you achieved for 20% more? Yeah, you might be able to have somewhere much nicer, be able to wash your kit, might be able to get your kit dry.

Jane Hall [00:25:13]:
I mean they're really rules that are not necessarily transferable, you know, because people have different circumstances and if you're on a really tight budget then you're going to make different decisions and we've been in a stronger position from that point of view, but still you can get loading to look the best bargain. Yeah. And we don't sort of seek to spend more money than we need to, but we'll relatively splash out. It's going to make a difference.

Jerry Kopack [00:25:41]:
Yeah, and I'm sure nobody wants to have to camp in their tent inside of their hotel room. Right. Because I for sure have had that experience in some pretty remote, remote rural places of northern India or Nepal, but that was the only accommodation that was available. And to your point, James, like it was, you know, it was maybe a $5, a $10 per night room, but there wasn't a way for me to upgrade. So it's like, well, yeah, yeah, I guess I'm going to camp inside my room because the accommodations are a little rough. Yeah, that's not what you're saying. Like, if you have an option to spend a few dollars more, like it's probably worth it in the long run if you can, if you can swing

James Hall [00:26:18]:
it, you know, you might have had a, done a really big day. You've got over the past. To us, there's nothing wrong with sort of saying, so look, now I deserve a little treat there.

Jerry Kopack [00:26:32]:
I agree. I agree. Today's episode is brought to you by bikeflights.com Bikeflights delivers everything you need to ship your bike, whether you're riding a bucket list tour, selling your bike online or moving across the country. Bikeflights easy to pack bike boxes, carbon neutral shipping and pickup to delivery monitoring. Make it simple and save you up to 40%. Visit bikeflights.com/warmshowers today to book a shipment. Now back to the show. So you recently spent three months in Morocco.

Jerry Kopack [00:27:09]:
I want to pivot to this trip because you talked a lot about South America, but I know that you guys, you have an affinity for Islamic countries. So talk to me about your, your route through Morocco and what it is that attracts you to these Islamic countries.

Jane Hall [00:27:24]:
Our first Islamic country was Turkey three years ago and we'd never cycled in an Islamic country before. We were overwhelmed with the generosity and kindness that was shown by local people to strangers. I think they're particularly keyed in to be kind to traveling people. So we'd constantly be invited for tea or would want to give us oranges or just, just real kindness and openness about their lifestyle and going in the mosques and things like that. So we have no reservations to try Morocco as well. And we've now had two two month trips to Morocco and thoroughly enjoyed that side of it. Again, the hospitality and the kindness as well as the scenery and it feeling like an adventurous place which has got very different culture. You know, you get off the ferry from Spain and it's, it's hardly any time at all in any distance, but a different world immediately.

Jane Hall [00:28:25]:
A different world. So, yeah, we've loved it and would like to go back perhaps at a different time of year in the future.

Jerry Kopack [00:28:32]:
Yeah, because I've, I've also been to Morocco and it has been one of My favorite places. I've also been to Turkey like you mentioned, and most recently Pakistan. And I think some of the Western world has these sort of misconceptions because it's, it's different. You know, they read the news and they probably shouldn't. They read the wrong news and they get the wrong idea of what Muslim or Islamic countries are like. And did you guys have any concerns before you dropped into Morocco? Because Turkey is still kind of European, but Morocco, as you said, Jane, you get across the boat from Spain, it's different.

James Hall [00:29:06]:
Right.

Jerry Kopack [00:29:06]:
And so did you have any concerns, reservations when you were going to Morocco?

Jane Hall [00:29:12]:
Not really. Well, no, that's probably not true. We did have reservations and we weren't sure how it would be. And in our mind, on the first trip, we were very much like, you know, if we don't like it, we just go back to Spain and we won't spend our two months here. You know, we'll kind of press the eject button. But within, you know, a few hours, we thought, this is amazing and such a change, you know, from anywhere in Europe.

James Hall [00:29:37]:
I think we were expecting a lot, a lot of hassle. The buy, buy, buy. You must sell. Come and look my carpet. Buy my carpet. We've, we've not been to Marrakesh on either of the trips, but from what I've heard, it's, it's less popular. Hassling tourists now. I think they might join the dots and realized it doesn't entirely work.

James Hall [00:30:00]:
And I think the other. Oh, we had reservations about is it okay to wear cycling shorts and T shirt? I think we always have our shoulders covered up. Jane doesn't do strappy tops. In such countries, if we're sitting in a restaurant for a sort of long lunch or something, we might pop some trousers over our cycling shorts to feel a bit less offensive. That I think everything's moved on so much. Everybody's looking at their phones, they know what a cyclist wears, they know it's sort of sportswear, Western things all over

Jane Hall [00:30:35]:
the television screens, you know, so it's not so shocking. But we just try to be respectful, basically.

James Hall [00:30:41]:
And, and I think one of the. Respect is one of the things that I just feel people seem to have for each other in the Islamic countries. We've traveled in way more than we seem to express in our non Islamic societies. Gross stereotypes I appreciate, but respect, I don't remember really seeing anybody being really expressing crossness with someone else. Whereas, you know, in UK street, you'll see people swearing that off at each other for no Apparent reason.

Jerry Kopack [00:31:14]:
And I love that we're talking about Morocco and in general, Islamic countries, because again, we have these definitely misconceptions, stereotypes, these fears. And it isn't until we go and see these places, and especially by bike, because, you know, if you just go to Tamarakesh or if you just go to the big cities, you're going to see that country, but you're not going to see in what, I feel, the real country. And that's what happens when you travel by bike. You go through small villages, you meet local people, they invite you for a cup of tea, they invite you into their home. And that's really the magic of a bicycle TR. Traveling. Right.

Jane Hall [00:31:51]:
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Jerry Kopack [00:31:53]:
And then, you know, how about the tagine? Right. In Morocco, which is wonderful.

Jane Hall [00:31:59]:
Yeah.

James Hall [00:31:59]:
Good, good healthy food with veggies and. Yeah, veggie tagines, particularly if they spice them up a bit, it's good, wholesome food.

Jerry Kopack [00:32:07]:
Yeah, yeah. I'm a vegetarian as well, so when I was in Morocco, I definitely had to make sure. I preface that. And it was no problem.

James Hall [00:32:14]:
Yeah, yeah. As long you pre. Warn them, they're very happy to go. And it's just so nice in the places. We didn't camp on either of the Morocco trips we lease can be quite difficult over it. And also excuse not to carry quite so much luggage. Yeah.

Jerry Kopack [00:32:30]:
Go late and.

James Hall [00:32:31]:
And over both the trips, staying in tiny little Aurges or Jeets and something, you look in the visitors book and they maybe have 20 people a year stay and you suddenly realize why they're very pleased you're there, because it's their, you know, one of their sole sources of a little bit of extra income, along with keeping goats or whatever else. And I just sort of. Yeah, you are spending a little bit more than wild camp, but the money's going so much directly to where you'd like money to go in a country.

Jane Hall [00:33:00]:
And you're getting to know the local family a little bit more than in your own.

James Hall [00:33:04]:
Very much. A lot of them, you felt like you were staying in their house rather than in an accommodation.

Jerry Kopack [00:33:10]:
Yeah. Are there any other Islamic countries that you guys are curious about or interested in touring through?

James Hall [00:33:19]:
Hoping to maybe go to Tunisia later this year. I'm quite captivated by the desert. We don't have desert in Britain yet. We're working on it with the droughts. So for us, it's. It's so alien. And I think it. There's something about.

James Hall [00:33:34]:
I think it reminds me of the altiplano. I'm going to go back to South America, but the, the wild times on the high altiplano and a lot comes back there. You know, very few people around.

Jane Hall [00:33:47]:
You certainly do feel exposed in that environment and you know, you have to,

James Hall [00:33:52]:
you've got to get it right.

Jane Hall [00:33:53]:
Motivated.

James Hall [00:33:53]:
If you mock up. Yeah, a car will come eventually. You're not actually going to dive. It could get quite awkward.

Jane Hall [00:34:01]:
There's a real sense of adventure being in that environment. I think it's not nothing to give

James Hall [00:34:05]:
people live and the animals and the plants. You know, a desert's not a sterile thing at all. It's completely a real learning.

Jerry Kopack [00:34:12]:
Yeah. I, I take for granted that I have deserts so close to where I live in Colorado, so we've got the Utah desert, there's deserts in Colorado, Arizona, but yeah, up in, in the UK and Western Europe, that's, that's something that's very unique. So I can understand why that would be so fascinating to you guys.

James Hall [00:34:29]:
Hey, did we tell you about Venezuela?

Jerry Kopack [00:34:32]:
You did not. But since it's. Since we're talking about it, let's talk about it.

James Hall [00:34:36]:
Well, we've never been to Venezuela, but before the big long trip, I, I did a lot of background reading and I kept reading this thing about couples going away together and they start to get pretty ratty and they can't get really worried. And a married couple think, oh, we're gonna have to get divorced when we get home. It's all going wrong. It's meant to be extreme trip. And, and I also read that, you know, suggestion was have a little bit of time apart, make, make a bit of space. So approach this with James, a little bit of gas. But Equid did understand because we have traveled in different ways before. So he said, you know, perhaps we might want half a day apart, a week.

James Hall [00:35:14]:
And that's. There's nothing wrong with that. We're not, our relationship isn't dying. It's just we're together 24 7, we're barely out of each other's workshop, let alone eyesight all the time. And then I jokingly said, I'm going to join all my half days together and go off to Venezuela on my own for a fortnight, which was a bit of a joke. And, and then we, we, as we were going along, we'd find you'd get to a tiny little town, you might have well camped for three. And it'll be a tiny town with one tiny shop. And you might want some milk and some biscuits.

James Hall [00:35:47]:
And one of. One of you would say, oh, yeah, I got to go to the shop. And the other one would be trying to be helpful. I'll come with you. And we used Venezuela as a code word. And if either said Venezuela, it just meant, I want a few moments on my own.

Jane Hall [00:36:00]:
I'm going to shop on my own.

James Hall [00:36:02]:
And you're not to be offended. I don't want you to come. It's just Venezuela and you go to the shop and you have this incredibly exciting experience buying some biscuits and some milk that you could tell the other person about. You actually have some news. So we, We. We suggest her. Venezuela is a good thing for the couples traveling together.

Jerry Kopack [00:36:22]:
Brilliant. I love that. Which is maybe even more important if you are, say, traveling on a tandem. Right. Because you can't get that. That natural space just by riding different space, different speed.

James Hall [00:36:34]:
Yeah.

Jane Hall [00:36:34]:
I mean, you're in your own headspace when you're on your bike.

Jerry Kopack [00:36:37]:
Yeah.

Jane Hall [00:36:37]:
Just that sort of physical space and just, you know, like, you see out

James Hall [00:36:42]:
for each other and see something different, you know.

Jane Hall [00:36:44]:
And like, James says to bring home a little bit of, like, oh, they had this in the shop. Like, you know, how exciting, you know. All right, I talked to someone that was. You've not seen. I'll tell you about them. Yeah. It's just not normal in everyday Life to have 247 with one person, whoever it is. So, yeah, it was quite a good mechanism.

Jane Hall [00:37:03]:
It continues to be a thing for us that we.

James Hall [00:37:06]:
I think my favorite thing I reported to you was in. In Peru, went to a town called Lower Whitehorse and there was some festivities going on. And Peru, they love to festival and dress up as cows and animals and. And just they drink quite a lot and they played out of tune trumpets and drums all night long, just traipsing around the square, clearly having a whale of the time. And we'd say this place. And they would build me up to another day of festivals. And I'd gone out to buy the milk and biscuits and I said to this chopper in my terrible Spanish, why are they having a festival again today? And he had a thing. And the only response he come up was because it's Tuesday.

James Hall [00:37:50]:
And I thought, that's brilliant. And I think it summed up quite a lot of the irreverence of Peru to me that it's just because it's Tuesday, we're going to festival.

Jerry Kopack [00:37:59]:
Right. And you haven't been celebrating shops.

James Hall [00:38:01]:
I was able to pass this back to you. It's an amazing story.

Jane Hall [00:38:04]:
All by himself.

Jerry Kopack [00:38:05]:
Oh, it's brilliant. I love that. Like, why not celebrate. Today is a beautiful day.

James Hall [00:38:09]:
It's Tuesday.

Jerry Kopack [00:38:10]:
Let's just celebrate and be happy.

Jane Hall [00:38:12]:
Yes.

James Hall [00:38:13]:
Dress as cows again.

Jerry Kopack [00:38:15]:
So I want to wrap this up with the little rapid fire travel questions. You guys have traveled a lot. You've got rules that you travel by, live by. You have code words, all these things. I want to kind of dig a little deeper into that. So just kind of whatever comes to your mind, that's your answer. So we'll, Jane, we'll start with you. This.

Jerry Kopack [00:38:38]:
Hopefully this is an easy one. Does your bike have a name?

Jane Hall [00:38:42]:
It does. The bike that I'm touring at the moment is Bell.

Jerry Kopack [00:38:46]:
Bell. And why?

Jane Hall [00:38:49]:
Our bikes are the same. They're both orange steel frames, rigid bikes. And on ones James got his first and with it being orange, he decided to call it Sebastian because there used to be an advert about Orange Tango on the telly which went, come on, Sebastian. As an orange thing. So his was already Sebastian and we got mine. That ended up the same. There's a band called Belle and Sebastian.

James Hall [00:39:16]:
Yeah.

Jane Hall [00:39:17]:
So they're actually named as like a couple. Belle and Sebastian.

Jerry Kopack [00:39:20]:
I love that.

James Hall [00:39:21]:
That was a quick fire answer.

Jane Hall [00:39:22]:
Yeah, sorry, I couldn't do that any quicker. Really, could I? Why Belle?

Jerry Kopack [00:39:26]:
All right, so Bell and Sebastian. I love that. I know that band. Next question is. I realize it's kind of cliche because you guys probably get this asked of you a lot, but I'm gonna ask you anyways. Every place is different that you've been. It's unique, it's special. But do you have a favorite place that you've been? Oh, I thought it was gonna be an easier question.

Jane Hall [00:39:52]:
I think crossings of the Andes in South America.

Jerry Kopack [00:39:56]:
Okay.

Jane Hall [00:39:57]:
Two would come to mind. Yeah, the multi day crossings of the Andes.

Jerry Kopack [00:40:02]:
Okay.

Jane Hall [00:40:03]:
Yeah, yeah, that would be it for me.

James Hall [00:40:06]:
Yeah, the same. The Paso, San Francisco and Aguas Negras. Just amazing places in the world. Yeah. And I think if I had to choose one who's different to Jones, one I'd say the. The desert in Morocco. Yeah, I went for a. I had a little Venezuela walk one of our nights up onto this hill.

James Hall [00:40:31]:
And if it hadn't been for one bush, the photo could have been taken on Mars. Big panoramic photo. It's just such an amazing place.

Jerry Kopack [00:40:41]:
Was that like south of the Anti Atlas?

James Hall [00:40:44]:
Yeah, yeah. Mazouka is a popular place to go see the dunes and it is utterly amazing. And this was about 100k south of Mazuga, thinking through to a city called

Jane Hall [00:40:56]:
Zagora, really near the Syrian border.

Jerry Kopack [00:40:58]:
Yeah, yeah, got it. Of all the places you've been, including your favorite places, you probably still have a list. So what is a country that's still on your list, a place that you want to see?

James Hall [00:41:15]:
Are you asking both of us?

Jerry Kopack [00:41:17]:
Yeah. Individually?

James Hall [00:41:18]:
Oh, I'm very. I would love to go Ladakh in a lot of ways. I was in awe of your Pakistan Pakistan stuff. I went to Pakistan years and years ago on a sort of climbing trip. And every time a lot of the taxi drivers in Sheffield or Pakistani and I often ask, wave from them, oh, is it safe to go back? And more and more of them say, yeah, yeah, you'd be fine. So that's high up the, the, the stands by which I mean Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan. Very, very tempted by. That said, we, we're trying really hard not to fly.

James Hall [00:41:54]:
We're not saying no, but we're sort of aiming at perhaps one flight per person per year to try and rationalize things. So it's a bit difficult obviously to get there without some flying. But having introduced a let's not fly, the world almost seems to have got bigger. That sounds paradoxical. The logistics of getting your bicycle overland somewhere and yourself, it's quite interesting and involved and it somehow feels more rewarding. The Morocco trips have been all without flying and yeah, we, again, we've got the luxury time and I will admit it's a bit more expensive than, than a flight, but it just feels so much more a wholesome adventure. And then that opens up as several Balkan countries. I'd like to go back to Montenegro.

James Hall [00:42:44]:
We barely touched. I was listening to one of the, the Irish couples podcast the other day that you did and they kept mentioning the Carpathian Mountains in it. Was it Romania or Bulgaria or both?

Jerry Kopack [00:42:56]:
It was Romania. Yeah.

James Hall [00:42:58]:
Yeah, they're on the list.

Jerry Kopack [00:43:00]:
Yeah.

James Hall [00:43:00]:
There's so many places.

Jerry Kopack [00:43:03]:
Well, I will say, having been to Ladakh three times and Pakistan most recently, I thought it was incredible, inspiring, life changing talk about the kindness of the people, the jaw dropping landscape. It just. And then just the organized chaos of life in the cities and in the roads. It's an experience that it's hard to just put into words. Jane, do you feel the same way with James or is there a specific place that's on your list?

Jane Hall [00:43:30]:
No, I mean, I would also really like to go to Ladakh and the Balkan. Revisiting the Balkans. I think the one place or the one set of countries that James hasn't mentioned would be sort of Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia. We do struggle with humidity a little bit, you know, so it's perhaps not our kind of place. And then the flying it's. I think we just have to make decisions as we go about where do we most want to go that we do on long flight and we maybe not get to all of these place.

Jerry Kopack [00:44:00]:
Okay.

James Hall [00:44:02]:
The staying healthy concerns me about the stands really gnarly cycle tourists seem to go there and get get poorly and I get spectacularly poorly. I mean I have a lot of bowel surgery so it does make me nervous and and ended up on a drip in Montenegro. So it's something we feel we have to a little bit wary of.

Jerry Kopack [00:44:22]:
Understood. Understood. Kyrgyzstan. I've been. It's also amazing I will say from a vegetarian perspective it's a little bit more challenging because some of the the more rural nomadic life over the mountain passes in the canyons it's. There's not a lot of vegetables so that's just something to a factor in. But in India not an issue of course. Yeah, I think I know the answer to this one but I'll ask anyways.

Jerry Kopack [00:44:47]:
Favorite landscape, Jane. So desert, mountain, coastal. What do you. What do you like?

Jane Hall [00:44:53]:
Mountains.

Jerry Kopack [00:44:55]:
I've heard James say desert a lot in this past 40 minutes.

James Hall [00:44:59]:
So yeah, I would also say mountains. Snow capped mountains. Doing a cycle loop around the Cordillera Blanca in Peru. Oh wow. Yeah. Enormous mountain faces above you. Utterly mesmerizing. So again that'd be allure of particularly Pakistan cycling under giant glasses.

Jerry Kopack [00:45:23]:
Yeah, for sure. We will. We will talk offline because I've got some tips for you about Pakistan. How about this one, James? Favorite piece of gear that you never leave home without.

James Hall [00:45:41]:
Well the thing we now never leave home without is a personal locator beacon.

Jerry Kopack [00:45:48]:
Okay.

James Hall [00:45:49]:
And we never had one. And I so kick myself for not buying one years ago because have we had a pickle on a lot of our trips? Particulars of two. You're in a very difficult position. Do you stay with the injured? Do you go do you trust some local who's come by would they get the things. So that's probably a very boring very old person answer.

Jerry Kopack [00:46:11]:
It's smart. But you're talking about like two years

James Hall [00:46:13]:
ago and I love the thought of knowing if hit the fan we could press a button and the best form of cert rescue services would be mobilized, whatever that might be.

Jerry Kopack [00:46:24]:
And you're talking about like like an inreach or a spot tracker.

James Hall [00:46:27]:
Right. This, this is only a beacon. It doesn't need charging. You don't pay a subscription. It has a batch that lasts seven years and it will Just activate emergency. You can't send any message. But the simplicity of that is just always at the bottom of the bag nowadays.

Jerry Kopack [00:46:49]:
That's a good, smart piece of gear. Jane, do you have something different or a fun piece of gear?

Jane Hall [00:46:54]:
Well, my luxury item is a Kindle, so, you know, I really like. I really like to do a lot of reading when we go on trips and carrying books. It's not good for the weight limit. So, yeah, I do a lot more reading. James gets his nose into vlogs and maps and things, and I tend to get some good books underway. Yeah, I like to take my Kindle. Yeah.

James Hall [00:47:16]:
Our other luxury item in Morocco is an electric kettle.

Jerry Kopack [00:47:20]:
Say again?

James Hall [00:47:20]:
Because an electric kettle, but.

Jerry Kopack [00:47:23]:
Oh, did you bring a kettle?

Jane Hall [00:47:25]:
Yeah, it was in one of my panniers the whole time.

James Hall [00:47:28]:
A little plastic thing is super light because we weren't camping, we didn't have a stove, and pretty well everywhere. There was a socket in the bedroom.

Jane Hall [00:47:35]:
So you could always make hot drinks

James Hall [00:47:37]:
if you're having it. You know, hot drinks through the evening without bothering your hosts. Coffee that doesn't have rosemary in it or whatever. They might be experimenting.

Jerry Kopack [00:47:46]:
I should. I should have asked that question instead of saying piece of gear that you never leave home without. Should have been your favorite luxury item. And the kettle would be high. That's a good one.

Jane Hall [00:47:57]:
It won't be going if we camp ever, but, you know, the sort of quirkiness of having the electric kettle in the pannier.

James Hall [00:48:03]:
It was great.

Jane Hall [00:48:04]:
It was great. It was really good.

Jerry Kopack [00:48:06]:
Okay, so I want to wrap this up with one final question. Again, you guys have shared so much laughter, so many insights, so many jokes, so many great stories, so many great tips. Last one. Why is it important for people to travel to see the world by bike? James, go.

James Hall [00:48:26]:
To open your eyes to make you appreciate I'm insanely lucky you are living where you are. And. Yeah, and. And just see other cultures. What do they say? It's a. Every day is a thousand lives you could have lived seeing someone. I've seen that today. Seeing somebody with a wooden plow being pulled by a stubborn, stubborn horse in horrid cold weather on a mountain pass in Morocco.

James Hall [00:48:58]:
How hard is that life? And, yeah, it's just how you can complain about anything afterwards. I don't know. And then I come home and complain about it.

Jerry Kopack [00:49:08]:
Jane, what do you think?

Jane Hall [00:49:09]:
Yeah, it's. All of that is the insight you get from traveling amongst other people and different cultures. I think it's also really good for humans to have adventure and to just get out their comfort zone and bring a sort of growth you perhaps have in yourself back to your everyday life. Yes. Not all about kind of physical challenge, although that's part of it. But yeah, just seeing something different and the way it maybe shapes you and shapes your thinking when you come back to the regular life.

James Hall [00:49:41]:
It's so cathartic. Living out of four panniers for a couple of months. Come back, you got 30 T shirts in the drawer at home, that 28 of it never get worn.

Jerry Kopack [00:49:52]:
But yeah, it makes you realize how much you really need or don't need in life.

James Hall [00:49:59]:
Right?

Jane Hall [00:50:01]:
Yeah, definitely challenges your perspective on what's important in life. And yeah, you value your days, don't you? And you value what you're able to do with your time.

James Hall [00:50:10]:
Yeah, Yep.

Jerry Kopack [00:50:12]:
And in my experience, to sort of piggyback off what you're saying, Jane, is that, you know, we, we hear these stories, we watch the news and we hear about other people, other places and it turns out that people are just people.

James Hall [00:50:27]:
Right.

Jerry Kopack [00:50:27]:
We all are, want the same things in life. We want to be happy. We want to have friends and community and live a stress free life.

Jane Hall [00:50:36]:
Do you know sometimes you see the person on the mountain pass with the plough and actually they'd be smiling and waving and you think, you know, we're judging that they must have a miserable life because look at these terrible conditions. But actually they find their joy in the way their life is and it makes you realize how inappropriate it is for people in, in our country to be dissatisfied with their lots. You. Yeah. Expectations, isn't it? Expectations?

James Hall [00:51:05]:
Yeah. If anybody's wondering about giving it a go, just jfdi. Yeah,

Jerry Kopack [00:51:15]:
That took me a second, but I got it.

Jane Hall [00:51:17]:
Yes.

James Hall [00:51:18]:
I don't know whether you got a bleep.

Jane Hall [00:51:22]:
Just do it.

Jerry Kopack [00:51:24]:
So good guys, thank you so much for spending time with me today, sharing all this wisdom and knowledge and, and new acronyms and new rules. How can listeners find out more about what you guys are up to and your adventures?

James Hall [00:51:39]:
Take a crazy guy on a bike. I do. I generally do our journals. My handwriting is terrible. So the main reason I do it is it's my own diary I can look back at because it's online. I can look anywhere, anytime. We don't really share our future plans on that.

Jane Hall [00:52:02]:
There's dark nights at home when we're feeling a bit fed up. James will say, where were we five months ago? And we look back at the, the journal and remember the sort of whatever was going on on that day.

James Hall [00:52:14]:
And then you can remember what you did for every day for the next however long.

Jerry Kopack [00:52:18]:
Yeah, I love that because of the

James Hall [00:52:20]:
way you once you lock into a trip and about you, you can, you know, if you look back at your work diary for being at home for a day last year, can you then remember what you did for the next two weeks?

Jerry Kopack [00:52:32]:
Absolutely not.

Jane Hall [00:52:34]:
Yeah, it gives you the trigger to sort of remember a whole sequence thing.

Jerry Kopack [00:52:38]:
Oh, that's smart. Well, I want to thank everyone for listening to my conversation today with Jane and James Hall. Stories like these hopefully will inspire you to set off on your own bicycle adventures and maybe make the world feel a little bit smaller, one pedal stroke at a time. And until then, keep the wheels rolling. And the story's coming. Thanks for joining us on Bike Life. I'm Jerry Kopak, and I hope you enjoyed today's episode as much as we enjoyed sharing it with you. Please leave us a rating and review or just tell your friends.

Jerry Kopack [00:53:11]:
This helps us reach more cyclists and hosts around the world to learn more or become part of this amazing community. Visit us at warmshowers.org or follow us on Instagram @warmshowers_org. If you'd like to be a guest on the show or have a question you'd like us to explore, email us at podcast@warmshowers.org.