The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time because Babylon 5 is a show that you get to watch for the first time twice. And we are still searching for those sci-fi messages contained within, you know, those things that hold up a mirage of society, give us hope that things can be better in the future, or just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Also, that being said, for everybody who has not been through Babylon 5 for the first time for yourselves, this is your one and only spoiler warning, folks. Folks, from this point forward, Jeff and I are at full liberty to talk about anything from any point in the timeline, anywhere in the universe, canon, extra canon.

[1:45] Anything from Crusade, from any of the movies. We can talk about anything from anywhere. This is your full spoiler wording. So if you have not done the Babylon 5 thing for yourself for the first time, stop the show right now. Go join our first time watch. We have that. Just scroll up. Go join the first time watch. And when you're done with that, then you can catch up back, catch up back with us here. Catch back up with us here. That's how it goes, Jeff. Right. You said we're going to be looking for messages, and I hope that you're prepared.

[2:14] When we watch this episode, we're about to dive into for the first time. It was stated that there is a 16 hour podcast waiting to be dived into with the messages that are carried within. This Brent is the very long night of Londo Malari. First time we watched this, when we watched all the episodes, we played a game where we would guess, predict what the episode is going to be about based on the title alone. What did you predict this episode was going to be about? Well, I said this was going to be Londo's first night as emperor. They told us back in, I think it was deconstruction, that he was going to be emperor at some time early in the next year, and it is early in the next year. So this would be his first night. Maybe not quite the coordination, but he's taking on the duties of emperor, and all he wants to do is go to sleep. But he's going to keep getting woken up. He's going to keep being interrupted with affairs of state. He's going to find out that being emperor is not really all it's cracked up to be, but in the process, he's also going to be doing a very deep self-examination. That was my thought of what was going to happen not exactly what happened but how about you jeff what do you think i'm pretty darn close to what you said i thought that this would be a little bit what, uh day of the dead ends up being in that londo would come back to centauri prime he'd become emperor and that night he would be racked not by nightmares but the ghost of emperor's past, where Cartagia would show up and torment him, go through all of.

[3:44] His traumas, his stuff, everything that he experienced while the Centauri almost got blowed up by the Shadows and the Vorlons both. Well, Jeff, that's what we both thought it was going to be about. Then we actually got to watch the episode and see what it really was about. Why don't we take a look and see what we said about this the first time? Let's do that. Previously. On Babylon 5, for the first time, the very long night of Londo Malari, This episode is the redemption of Londo Malari. We finally got there. I have been waiting for this episode for three seasons now. Londo goes into his little dream state, and now we're given the question. Do you want to live? Yeah, that's not enough. You need more. And so what is that more? Ever since Morden and Londo had that first run in, Londo's been dumped into survival mode. I found it so powerful when Delenn was showing him those cards and she says, you know, look at this, look at this. And he says, I can't. There's too much blood there. So in your survival, it caused the death of billions.

[4:54] Are you done surviving? You're ready to live. Remember when Londo's hair went black and his fangs got really sharp? Even then there were times when you would see londo pause and take a breath, and then push forward you know and it was in that breath that you're like londo there is hope for you, a word is needed it's a single word yes but there's so much more to it than just a single word he goes to visit a quick changing sheridan all of londo's bottles were empty ever since episode one, we've seen Londo drowning his sorrows. He didn't have that as an opportunity anymore. Sheridan says we're all dying. Here's when you were born. Here's when you died. That dash is your life. How are you using your dash? Turn around. Londo, there's a lot of blood on your hands. There's so much blood. You can't even look back at the last few years of your life. Turn around.

[5:55] There's a word for that. Repent. You have seconds left. Your dash isn't done yet. Just turn around. And Londo says he doesn't think he has any choice in the matter. You always have a choice in the matter. But what it rang for me was Lady Morella. And I was like, is this that moment? His greatest fear is facing accountability. The guilt was represented by Jakar. That wasn't Jakar. That was Londo's own guilt. If you sit and you're honest with yourself, we all have a Jakar.

[6:34] Londo eventually turns around. Jakar says, one word from you could have changed it all. Because he said, I could say that word. I've never said that word to anyone before. That's Londo's pride. A person who is truly proud of who they are. When they do something wrong, they want to do better. What we see instead is just ego. There's a good pride. There's a bad pride. It's unfortunate that in the English language, those are the same words for us. Where this hit me, anti-racism, right? It's not enough to not be racist, but at its core, that means sometimes we have to stand up and say, what you just did, what you just said, not okay. And I'm not going to put up with it. Because if one person does that, another person will. And eventually others will also. That's how change happens. This is the responsibility of every single citizen in the world. I don't know who those guys were or are, but holy crap, there was some good stuff in there.

[7:38] You know, there are times where I feel like we could write a book based on just the messages contained within Babylon 5 alone. Like this whole experiment we've been doing for the last four and a half years now, Jeff. Yeah. For those of you who dug that recap, one, thank you to Ardelen for putting those together. She does such a great job, and that one was no small task. There was a lot in it. There is uh what we're calling the director's cut of it a much longer version that's gonna it's on our youtube channel at the time that this is is showing so you can hopefully i put the card up there so you can click on it if not it's on our page, um if you're interested or you can just go watch the entire first episode because you know there's, apparently some pretty cool stuff in there do that you should if you haven't yet bro i i'm ready are you i feel the need the need for forgiveness.

[8:31] I feel the need, the need for forgiveness, which is kind of a speed, right? The cool thing is for us, we're going to be watching this at the speed of 1.0. You have choices on the speed to which you watch or listen. That's fine. Do what you need to do. While we watch the episode here, we're going to talk about it. We're going to comment on it. On YouTube, we edit that up like a reaction video. The full and unedited version we make available on our patreon page at patreon.com slash bad nerds, and if you're listening to us on the audio podcasting app you're going to hear that reaction you'll hear all of our conversations in the middle because we don't want you to miss that and then of course we'll have all the fun stuff on the back side of it is because this is, uh ultimately jeff at its heart a podcast that we are recording so with that jeff, let's go watch an episode let's do it accessing file.

[9:31] Good on sheridan being able to sleep on that bed practice, you mean the hard plank that is at a 45 degree angle it's not even yeah it's not even just the angles for waking you but when i saw your message i felt i had to contact you at once to see if there's a problem, the message is a request you see in your name for the replacement of your assistant linear, brent yeah stand up and show the world your shirt right now he's going to make this change.

[10:08] I love that you wore that shirt. It's so little side note. This is the single shirt that I get the most comments on. Out of all the shirts I wear this one, more people stop me and talk to me about this is completely unacceptable. All the bravary. That's right. Hey, by the way, just another thank you to cat. Who led the charge on getting us a replica of this i like mine's mine's on my shelf that like i look at it every day it's it's so cool like the synapses in your brain.

[10:41] Veer's working hard back there but i have my orders, you are never going to get your way when you yell at officials like this right doesn't work, it's not gonna work he is smiling while he's saying this i'm gonna to hold this to the letter of the law, and I'm going to make up a couple new ones along the way just to piss you off. This is not how you get your way, Londo. Mr. Allen, may I please? I hope you understand, but the ambassador has been under a great deal of strain lately.

[11:14] I love it because this is the difference in the approach, right? I I'm reminded of Jeff calling a wireless, uh, service provider because they sucked. And the poor person on the other end of the line, just being like, I'm really sorry, sir. This is our pot. There's nothing I can do. This is the policy. This is, I'm sorry. And I paused and I said, look, I know you're just showing up and doing your job. And what I'm about to say has nothing to do with you at all. You're doing fantastic. I know they're recording this. You're doing great. What the fuck? What do you think? This is so dumb. You stupid just went off. And then I'm like, sorry, you're doing great. I just had to get that off my chest. I usually say to somebody, I'm like, listen, if it sounds like I'm frustrated, I need you to understand. I'm not frustrated at you. I'm frustrated at your company. You happen to be the person representing your company that's in front of me right now, but it's not you. Right. Like, like I try, I try to be very like if I'm upset, I'm, I can be upset, but I try to be very aware of the human being who's on the other side of the phone for me or the other side of the glass or whatever it is you know also if your policy is stopping you from providing good service you should probably revisit your policy yeah and that and that's usually i say your company has a crappy policy, and he's gone, no no.

[12:34] They didn't use the stunt double. He's like, I have to fall and not mess up my makeup. You also got to make sure that we throw the bottle in such a way that I'm not going to land on it when I fall. Got that TNT intro now, man. It's a graffiti tag. I'm never going to not see it as that now. Good morning, Dylan. Oh, this is going to be awkward. Busy schedule for the day. Bad news improves on a good meal. Valen said that.

[13:02] I do just, I really want to point out the difference between the way Mira it feels like Mira is acting differently here in season five than we have seen her and it might even be that there was a progression really over the course of last season but, you know Bill Mooney is still playing very straight very, you know non-moving almost stoic and Mira is playing to Lynn very free very flowy like her body you know what I mean Like she's not rigid and straight the way that most memory are like, she's very human. Honestly, that you don't need me here anymore. Dylan, you have Sheridan now. Yeah. Sheridan's not my assistant. I still need an assistant. For both of us. If I were elsewhere, you swore yourself to my side. Nope. And perhaps in time I will earn your respect. I'll earn the thing I've had for years. I've always had my respect, Lanier. This is the calling of my heart, Delenn. Is it? Nope. Liar. Yep. Look what you did because of the calling of your heart. I'm just joining the analyst shock. Mr. Garibaldi. You know what you saw, but he wasn't poisoned. What he drank had absolutely nothing to do with it. He's had a heart attack there. A bad one. It's not just a matter of junk in the way. I mean, his arterial system is basically shut down from all the stress and anxiety and pressure he's been under.

[14:24] So Richard Biggs is a great actor, right? We've been impressed with him the whole time. He wanted to understand – he gets a lot of the techno speak, right? And he gets a lot of long one-liners he has to do. And apparently part of his method is he wants to deeply understand the medicine or the situation or whatever. Yeah. So he went to JMS and he said, he's very, I need to know more about this. I'm also very concerned because like, we've never mentioned heart issues with Londo before. This is just kind of out of nowhere. Heads up. This is kind of a dark, this is a dark one. Okay. JMS actually calls this a terrible synchronicity. So JMS responded that some people have congenital heart defects their whole lives and the first time they know about it is when it's too late, and that's exactly what happened to richard biggs he had a congenital heart disease that, or defect that came up without warning and took his life wow it just occurred to me, what this episode is this is the episode threshold from stargate sg1.

[15:36] That's you get it. Yeah, absolutely. I love threshold. So threshold is it for those of you don't know, one of the characters gets brainwashed, and to cure him of the brainwashing. They take him literally to the edge of death where he like basically relives his the key moments of his life and reminds him who he really is and and kind of brings him back. And that's effectively what's happening to Londo here. He's going to get to the very edge of death where he has to go through all of this stuff in his head, before he gets to come back. It's effectively the same thing. Yeah. Great call. This really is the same thing. Isn't it? It just hit me like as he was like, yeah, he's basically going to die here. I'm like, this is threshold. Good luck, Malari.

[16:22] I do love her compassion for such a complicated character. Okay. But here's the thing. All right. This is where I'm going to get the hate from. Um, Dylan here is completely concerned about herself right now, right? I mean, yes, there's concern for like, what's going to happen to linear and where's he going to go, but it does not come across to me right now as if that's actually out of concern for linear. This is, but you said you would be here with me and now you're not going to be here with me and you're going to go out there and you're going to die and you won't be able to be here with me because you're not supposed to be here with, your, but you're, you're, you're my attache, you're my stapler, is really how it's coming across to me right now. I don't think it's supposed to. And I don't know what, maybe I've been hanging out with you too long, Jeff, and now I've become jaded and become that guy. But it just doesn't ring like anything she's saying really is out of true concern for Veer and his personhood as more it's just out of a selfishness side of it. Do you catch that i do because when she talks about him leaving she's like.

[17:27] You know she's like that's stupid yeah she's more eloquent than that right but right it is there's this real sense of like i it's not even, i i i don't know that it's even that she he pledged himself to her it's more of a just like, i can't believe he's choosing to leave me in general just you know like what reasonable person would leave who's gonna leave me right exactly i'm peaches and cream are you gonna leave me, now you're gonna now you're gonna leave me because it's all about me, and although i think like that happened last night right or earlier today it happened earlier today she's probably, two hours off that interaction she's still probably trying to make sense of everything fair you know it'd be a really interesting thing i kind of wish jms would have gone down this road because it'd be really interested to to compare the two, sheridan just said three is a crowd and Dillon said yeah but on Minbar three is a perfect number and what if there is actually a Minbari tradition that households.

[18:28] Marital couples are threes and not twos, And like Dylan's thing is like, he could be our husband or, or whatever for that to be heard her way of doing it. Like this was just sort of an expectation. Maybe they didn't talk about before they actually got married. And John's like, no, no, no, no. This is, this is, it's just the two of us. And we don't, you know, which by the way, the three, it's probably a lot more accepted now than it was back then. But you know, love who you want to love folks. Love whoever love you back. Or it could be a part of her hybridization and human thing of like, it is our tradition that there are three of us. I'm a hybrid. I'm marrying a human. I'm going to honor your – you honored my customs by woohooing in front of 30 people. Right. I'm going to do this for you. But that – well, I mean that could be the resolution of the whole thing, but it would be interesting to have to see them work through that.

[19:24] Of course, we don't go down that path. That's not where JMS takes us. But it could have been an interesting exploration. So we're entering the first dream sequence. Yeah. And I want to point out we're about a third through the episode already. Interesting. Like 33% in this total estimate, right? A third of this thing has been set up, but the, the meat of this thing is, yeah, still to come. Yeah. Dylan, have you.

[19:53] The director, David Eagle was super, Super, super intentional in the lighting, the camera angles, and not just like where he's shooting, but like you can see how it's kind of like literally tilted in an angle. He wanted just all of the dream sequences to have off-putting, almost a theory of fill to them. Sure, that makes sense. Is that supposed to be blood? Yeah, we interrogated this pretty extensively. That's a little thin, did we? A little thin. Her airhead melted. You're dying, Londo. Do you want to live? What does it make? Very Lorien of her. This is a very... No, no, but Jeff, okay, what are the questions? Yeah, right. What do you want? Who are you? Who are you? And then who do you serve go on to the other ones right where are you going who do you serve where are you going and what do you believe and this is a great question do you want to live it kind of encapsulates them right, because Lorien asked the same question in a different way of Sheridan what do you have to live for do you want to it's a great question and here's the thing I don't think she's talking about his physical life.

[21:18] Jakar's whole thing with Jaquan. So interestingly enough, all the production staff on this as they were going through the script, laying out, you know, blocking and alighting everything. Oh, this is basically dust to dust. We're doing a version of dust to dust. We're going to put Jakar into Londo's mind. We're going to make things challenging. So it's very much like, I think it's a great observation because in a real way, thematically, this is a sequel. What's the bookend, right? Because it's the whole Londo Jakar, Londo Couture. That was all Jakar. Now it's Londo's turn, right? Yeah. God, every time with this scene, I'm just like, this was the show. The sidekicks, right? Just add Zack into this group, and we've got it. No. Oh, Natoth. Yeah. I heard about your... Good Natoth. She can be a guest star. Recurring guest star. I'm not sure. The bartender called it a Shirley Temple. Gotta go for a dirty Shirley. That's what you gotta do. Take care, Lanier. There it is. and you, Vera.

[22:20] You know, we talk about the scene that's coming up later in the season when he goes nuts on the Zocalo with the sword and we're like, that's when Veer did his thing. I think this is the moment that he like became emperor inside. I'm going to cross cultural lines and honor you for your beliefs and who you are. Just with that little, would Londo ever, ever do something like that? No. No way. Cartagia? No way. Hey, but Veer, who's the next iteration, the next step? He's doing that. Interesting. It's a moment his hair grew a couple inches, I think. Yeah, I could catch that.

[23:00] And that's so sweet. I love that. Lanier is such a bro. I'm hugging you, but I'm hitting you. I'm hitting you too. I'm third fan of Chidoboing you. I like that you just tried to turn that into a verb. My family said that i had married beneath my station so we just saw sheridan in his earth force uniform right uh-huh um, he's going to change uniforms here with this camera change okay sujana the council chambers is asking you what do these things symbolize and i want to kind of dive in a little bit he's wearing the earth force uniform one when he died uh he was, they weren't no they were wearing the new ones but he had his like there was still the symbolism of the uniform the stat bar and that kind of stuff but the uniform symbolizes duty loyalty, it means something right okay and kind of what Londo is talking about right now is his duty as a young, centaur i had i married below my station it was my duty i had to give her up, otherwise they would have disowned me the way sheridan had to give up his earth force thing exactly otherwise, other bad stuff would have happened yeah his duty his calling of to duty was higher than the uniform uh.

[24:16] I hear you once had a dream about your own death. Yes. And this is when he got a job at the Olive Garden as a host, seating patrons. You still have less than 20 years left. We're all dying, Wando. Now he's in his Army of Light uniform. 100 years doesn't matter. What matters is what we do while we're waiting around, how we live out the seconds in between. There it is, the dash. Well, I have not done very well in that regard, have I? No, you haven't. There's a time for charity and a time for truth. We haven't seen this yet. You're almost done.

[24:54] Yeah, he knows. Turn around. That's exactly what is there. I can't. Don't you understand? I can't. No, don't leave me here. This is Sheridan Beyond the Rim. Evolves to the next... He's Jason Ironheart. What's happening? Because he can't turn around. He is dead. He knows what's behind him. Yeah. Yep. Come on. I mean, that's the thing. I said it, it was in the recap and I said it the first time around, but everyone, we all have our Jakar. We all have the thing standing behind us that we don't have the courage, the, I don't, yeah, the courage, the wherewithal, the whatever to just turn around and face. I encourage you to reflect on what that is and see if you should have a very long night of you not it'd be great if literally jms was sitting there to have a conversation.

[25:51] Although how great is it that it's literally jiminy cricket then don't die right you know, it's funny to me because i still say shadow, or dream dylan dream sheridan dream veer when they're talking about left left and death life and death they're not talking about his physical being at all at all, jms refers to jakar in this episode as londo's conscience, like he has to face his conscience we have for a long time it's called veer his conscience, and i just i'm just watching this scene thinking about that how like he had to work through delan and sheridan to kind of like Like that was, those were factual, sequential, like these are events that happened. Delenn, too much blood. John, hey, we're going to talk about your wives. We're going to talk about, you know, so these are facts. Now, to your point, we're getting past the biological life and into true, the true life that everyone can live. And it's taking his long-term conscience as Jiminy Cricket to start peeling that away that then opens the possibility for him to face, face his fear. Yeah. I would say that while he specifically says Jakar is his conscience, I don't think we're wrong about saying Veer is his conscience either. Oh, I agree.

[27:20] In fact, I'd say when we talk about Veer being his conscience and then where he talks about Jakar being the conscience here, we're actually talking about two very different things. Yes. In this case, Jakar represents Londo's conscience that he has to turn around and face. He's got to own up to it. and behind that is going to be Jakar. That's still himself. And I don't remember if this happens, but it wouldn't shock me if like Londo, like there's Jakar, Londo has to turn around and talk to him for a moment and all of a sudden it flashes and it's him talking to himself because that's literally still his conscience. That's still Londo. When I love what Veer just did in the dream here, he was in a, well, don't die. Like just don't, like he's telling him what to do, which is the Veer, like the outside conscience, the Jiminy Cricket conscience. And the Jakar one is really the internal piece of Londo. Yeah. And I still love Veer doing the external piece. Turn around. Don't die. Right? Tell me what to do here. It's that simple. Just don't do the thing and do this thing. You're out of time, Londo. Turn around. I can't. Because...

[28:37] I will miss you. Hmm. What a great delivery. And I suppose that I would miss you. It's almost as close as he's ever gotten to say anything nice to him. There is such a difference between the way Veer says this, because I would miss you, and the way Dillon says that to Lanier. Effectively the same thing. Wow. Like, when Lanier's trying to say, like, Dillon, I gotta go. I can't handle this. I can't handle this. And Dillon's like, well, but I would miss you. What about me? Whereas Veer here says, no, you can't. Why? Because I would miss you. I don't know that I can fully explain it. Veer's not making this about himself. That's the thing, yeah. Dillon made that about herself. This is still about Londo. And.

[29:29] I don't know that I have the right words to split that. But just from their actions, from the way they're acting, from the way – whatever they're putting together.

[29:39] The sense that I get between the two, that these are two very different ways of saying effectively the same thing and effectively a similar situation. And Ben points out it's because it's not really Veer that's saying it, which – Yeah, but even if it were really Veer saying it? Fear is not going to make it about himself. Right. That's not in his character. Yeah. I who. Okay. Here's a question. So what is fear representing right now? If, if Jakar is, is his conscience, right? What's, what's fear representing right now? Uh, reality just stark in Londo. This is, this is what you have to do. It's just this.

[30:19] So what do you, what do we call that? Like, what's that part? Like there, there's your conscience of the thing of, of what you should do. And the, the, the, the part of you, like the cognitive function of you that is separated from all emotion and from all, like, I know what I have to do. I just don't want to do it. Just don't want to do it. What is that? The ego? Is that what we call that? Or the, the, the super, the id? One of those things. Something like that. Right. Like, like I, uh, the, the reason logic, uh, it's more than that, Ben. Um, I, I feel like the words right on the tip of my tongue. I don't think it's ego or it or super ego, although it could be, but there, there's like Vera's definitely represent, he's representing Londo's own cognitive function of, I, this is what I should do. This is, this is the, there's the, the, what I'm telling myself I have to do.

[31:15] Is what i want to do and i i don't know that i can't, well we all know you have to do this we'll have that conversation inside of ourselves right where yes that's what i'm saying we have every excuse like there's londo here is representing himself or part of himself where he's like these are all of the reasons i can't, turn around right like i'm justifying it i can't do it and the other side of him is like but it's the thing you have to do you said you want to live we've establish that. To do that, you have to turn around. So stop making excuses and rationalizing what you're doing and just do it. Well, I mean, it's that same voice that says, hey, go to the gym. I got to drive and I got to put on those socks. I got to do that. No, go to the gym. No, turn around. That's the voice I'm talking about, right? Like that's Vera speaking right now, what Vera's representing. I also find it interesting how just a couple, maybe 15-ish minutes ago in the episode, Londo says to Delenn, no one would miss me. And here, Vera says, I would miss you. And in his life, is there any Centauri he's closer to? He'd like to be really close to Adira, but no, probably not. Well, he probably doesn't want to be very close to her now. Well, a little decayed. I mean, if she was alive, like if she was alive right now in this moment, do you know what she would be saying? Same thing. Help, let me out of this box. it's really dark I can't breathe.

[32:43] Wow.

[32:51] I can't take credit though that's from uhf that's a weird owl joke oh my word i love it so much i love it so well done it's so dark, i'm curious what brought jakar here now molari now we end this like narratively i get why he's there but like in real universe thing, jakar's sitting back writing his articles of declaration Something told him to go, you, you know that, you know what I'm talking about. I just, something told me to be here for some reason to go to med lab. Well, it's a, it's a, I have to go see Londo. He, Jakar knows where Londo is. He knows what's going on down here. This is the time he needed to, I, I. You know, it's the universe linking us all together, taking care of us, you know. And Dylan says, too, maybe there's some link due to the dust. I would be very disappointed with that. Yeah. I really would.

[33:49] Unless we played on that a lot more. Yeah, more stuff. You know, but, I am very satisfied with the universe called him there and that Jakar is in tune enough with the spiritual side of things or the metaphysical side of things, whatever you want to call it, that he felt that understood it and followed. I do find it interesting that what we've been exploring so far is getting Londo to turn around and face what he knows is there. It's interesting that at some point the thing that is behind him speaks out. Yeah. i'm just thinking about it in real time i think because on one hand i'm like that and, it should be their silent big you know horny like it's it's this awful scary dark thing behind you that you're blowing up in your mind but it's silent and quiet because really it's just a dude right it's not this big monster, but as soon as he puts voice puts words to the thing now okay now we know what you are but also i think what it is maybe jacar wants this too.

[34:54] And you know and and this isn't jacar obviously that we're seeing you know in londo but in that metaphysical the, because the universe truly is just taking hold of londo through this whole episode and saying bro this is it like i'm giving you one more shot you have things yet to do and in that took a piece of Jakar, who's like, hey, you want this, too. And I would dare say what happens in the fall of Centauri Prime cannot happen without this happening here. Agreed. Absolutely. In fact, Londo going to the Centauri homeworld and rescuing Jakar and going through... Wait. Yeah, that happens in the season, right? I'm not. I'm just gonna say that didn't already happen in season four. No, no. That happens here, right? Like all that. Now we're there because they get in a talkback. Yeah, we get the yogurt spoo and everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen without this. Exactly. Onto the sick and the infirm and the innocent. This is not my idea. This is. Oh, my gosh.

[35:55] This whole piece right here is what's contained in that episode. When Londo is looking at the glass and all we see is his reflection looking back at him. Wow. Yes. Like in that, that whole thing, this is what's contained in that.

[36:11] There it is. You said nothing. This part right here. Yeah.

[36:20] You said... Look at his face. Look at that. Nothing. This part, yeah. And that's Londo speaking back to himself. You said... Leave me alone. It's because he knows. He's known all along. I can't. Look at me. do you remember this place.

[36:44] Yes so in this scene there's some uh, stuff out there peter juristic talks quite a bit about this episode and how he he just, loved it loved everything he got to bite off but one of the things he loved the most was working with katsulas in this and just the as they always have but they got to be so much bigger and different in this one because they weren't necessarily, you know playing their normal selves but there was a conversation around this scene specifically where jms this was very important to him that this was the moment in the scene that, you know everything kind of came together and londo started his real slide towards redemption, he says to andreas katsos he's like you just need to do the same thing you need to do cartagia like you need to do, just be him. And Katsos is like, I'm terrible at impressions. I can't do them. Don't ask me to do this. And so basically, instead of doing an impression, he just like acted and was like, if I were cartagia in that scene, what would I have done?

[37:51] 34, 35, 36, nothing.

[37:57] I ask this as a rhetorical question, because I think this would be a real detour in the conversation. But I said earlier, we all have our Jakar. I think we all also have those things where we said nothing and bad things happened as a result. I can think of a few on my part where I just look back and I'm like, how did I just said a thing? Things could have gone differently. I think what I love about this scene and that what I love about this for Londo, and there's a thing for us to take from this is there's, there's life after that moment, right? Like you didn't say a thing. That's not the end. You have to repent. You have to take accountability. Like, it's not like, oh, things are just going to be fine, but they can be. If you pay the price, if you do the work around it. JMS actually made a comment where he says that Londo cannot be fully redeemed. There's just too much blood that has been shed. He says he can learn, yes, and he can better himself, but because of his actions, so many have died. So much grief has occurred that perhaps no amount of self-revelation can cover the blood on the floor. And as Londo's time as emperor has already shown, He'll continue to pay for what he has done right up until his death at Jakar's hands. I would.

[39:23] Beg to differ with his definition of redemption. Okay. Londo is working out his consequence. Londo is working out his repentance, to use a word from the recap earlier. That is an ongoing thing. That is a thing he may never be able to atone for or to overcome. Okay. Redemption. And I will say this, and this is the Bible according to Brent. No one is too far past redemption. Everyone can be redeemed, fully redeemed. Doesn't mean you're free of the consequences. Doesn't mean you're free of restitution you must pay back. Doesn't mean that you will be completely forgiven. And I think maybe that might be what JMS means there when he says that, that Londo is, he is incapable of ever being fully forgiven, not fully redeemed. I would probably just differ in my definition of that word with him, you know, because he's certainly not wrong on that level. There is too much blood that has been spilt, and he can't. We talk a lot about justice here, you know, and we have in our modern society a real twisted view of justice. What we call justice now, I believe, is just vengeance. There's no – it's not about justice.

[40:44] But in justice it basically states and this is stated really well in the concept of restorative justice but uh, there's been a tear in the fabric of the universe there's harm has occurred there's a gap there's something has broken justice seeks to, bridge that gap it can never fill it right like the the harm happened the loss is there but what can you do to bridge it we talked about this in passing through Gethsemane. That's part of the idea of doing the death of personality and then having them serve in the community that they hurt. Doesn't fix the thing. It doesn't erase what happened, but we're bridging the gap. And I think that's kind of what I'm hearing here is like, there's a gap. Like he's made, Wanda's left a millions or billions of souls size hole that can never be filled. Right. But it can be bridged. Right. And, and what we see here very much is the beginning of his ability to truly bridge. We've seen him do little things, you know, here and there, but like, this is the moment that it turns and that, that bridge has structural integrity now. Yeah. And, and that is also where I say words like grace and mercy must come into play, uh, because, so many things that we do bear consequences that we will, that will never be, smoothed over or put back the way it was before.

[42:13] Someone else is going to have to live with your choices for the rest of their lives and even beyond their life. You can't undo that. And that's where, again, mercy or grace has to come into play.

[42:30] I would say probably mercy is more what's there. And that's all factored into it, forgiveness being a part of that. You know, and this line that's coming up here later with Jakar, which is just gorgeous and beautiful. Yeah. You know, it means so much more. So anyway, let's keep going. It would not have mattered. It wouldn't have changed anything. It would have mattered, though. Not have stopped. You're wrong, Molari. Whether it was me or my world. You were a witness. It doesn't matter if they'd stop. It doesn't matter if they'd listen. You had an obligation to speak out. I couldn't. That's why you don't deserve to be Emperor.

[43:13] God there's so like so 16 hours right like you just said, so he gets super defensive he starts justifying and rationalizing what he didn't do and then his heart starts to give out on him again when someone's coming at you with something like this don't don't get to just be like, tell me more i'm be curious right then it wouldn't be fine if londo is like oh it's interesting jacar tell me more no that's not what you tell me more about where i suck jacar right yeah but But you can stop and be like, you know what, Jakar? You're right. You're right. A word would have changed everything. And in that moment, I didn't have the courage. And that's what Londo's building to right now. But I love just this moment of doing that thing we all naturally do, of defending a choice that we made. I mean, we know it's a bad choice, but we just double down and we will not. Well, all right. This is a blah, blah, blah. And it's literally killing him. And that's where pride leads you. You know i mean this whole piece this heart thing it's so metaphoric right that that he doubles down in his own right i can't i can't i can't, that is the thing that is going to kill him and it's represented through whatever's going on with his heart here he's a full cardiac.

[44:28] Arrest all right they're ready to hit him two whoa whoa yep full did you see that full frontal yeah peter jerseek talks about this. They brought this like apparatus, this rubber apparatus, slapped it on his chest and like, we're wiggling it around and everything literally full frontal nudity. I'm gonna, I gotta, I gotta blow this up. I gotta see this. I didn't think we ever got to see this must be cold in there. Okay. So far, just, they're just wrapped. See, I figured they would be a lot, frankly, bigger.

[45:03] I only see four. Where are the other two? That's what she said. They're down lower, I would guess, maybe. Sometimes they get stuck to the inside of your back. You imagine one of the other doctors is like, tickle it. Lose your license for that kind of stuff. Wow, man. How do we have a conversation about this episode when I'm looking at his junk? You are very transfixed about it. Do we have a conversation? Are you discovering something in yourself? No, just the fact that they actually, did this it is i, just never knew you know what though if they didn't do it we would have been on top of them for it i mean they ripped his shirt open and what we know they ripped his shirt open and all we saw was just his peter jersex man chest right exactly we'd be like hey wait a minute, dude andreas is doing such a good job at imitating um what's his name worthy uh.

[46:10] Who did it better, Jakar or Londo on the scream? Londo. Yeah. By a long shot. Yeah. Yeah, I don't love Jakar's scream there ever. You're not sorry for what you did. You're just sorry that you got caught. Yes. That you almost destroyed your home world because of it. That's not true.

[46:34] See, here's the thing. I think Jakar is completely wrong here. Okay. Londo in and of himself in his own personal recesses is very sorry. He's very, he truly is very sorry. We see that conflict in him throughout the series, but he's, uh, uh, this is, this is the conflict of him working that out all the way, all the way up to the top. You're not sorry. You're sorry. You just got caught. That forces London. Now, understand that Jakar is Londo, talking back to Londo. Right? We're just seeing it in the person of Jakar. Saying that inside his own mind forces Londo to ask the question of himself, am I actually sorry or am I sorry I just got caught? No, actually, I'm really sorry. Like I – you know what I mean? Like Londo has to come to that term – to those terms himself. He has to be able to admit it himself. Londo has still never like, like there's the, here's what I really feel deep inside, like the best part of me. And here's where I allow myself to feel right. And, and, and this is getting from this Londo.

[47:52] Down to the deeper Londo that's inside. I actually had this conversation in therapy this very week to reconcile who we are and what we do. We have to ask ourselves pointed and challenging questions. So I've been developing this theory. I believe I've talked about it in recent weeks, but there's like the people who do stuff. And then the people who are in leadership roles and, uh, most people leadership roles are worthless, right? It doesn't even matter. it's whatever in my professional life i am in a leadership role and so like i had to ask myself am i useless am i part of the problem and i had to ask it in a non-judgmental non-accusatory way but just like, if all of these people are this and i'm one of these people am i this right, and then that leads to very.

[48:42] If you're compassionate with yourself and you are honest it leads to a really, difficult conversation where you really examine who you are, what you do, why you do it. I personally whipped out Brene Brown's clarification of values exercise and, went through that to just really restate that, you know, no, no, I'm, I am not one of them, right? Like I'm doing okay. But I had to go through that process to believe it and to know what it means and what it feels. And Ben said it in the, in the council chambers chat just a moment ago, sorry is a word. It's not the word that matters. It's the miles and miles of context and meaning underneath it. Londo has to ask himself those questions, right? Am I sorry? Or am I sorry? I got caught. Am I this or am I that? He has to go through those steps to fight just to know what it means and what it feels. And so behind that word is actual meaning for, for him and for, well, for him really. I'm sorry.

[49:49] Jeff, have you ever been through anything in your life where you had to do work, to break down past all of your own barriers for yourself to get down to, what you truly believe, what you truly want, what you truly, recognize as truth or your truth? I've done a tremendous amount of work around that. Yes. What we just witnessed is a really good, I think, representation of what that looks like for all of us when we do that work. I remember, I mean, I remember having to go through that myself.

[50:25] Really clearly on that kind of a level of, breaking down my own self, deconstructing myself, you know, and getting to that spot of recognizing and seeing myself for who I really am. Not who I wanted to see myself as, but what I really, and what I really wanted, and where I really wanted to go and who I wanted to be, how you answer the questions of Babylon five to truly answer them. Right. And it, I will tell you, it took a lot to get me to be able to get to that core spot. A lot of me, I had to work through. I mean, and, and that has formed so part of so much, a part of the person I am today. And this for me was, gosh, almost 20 years ago now. Wow. Oh, gosh, it was almost 20 years ago. Wow, it seems so not that long ago to me. It's still so fresh in my mind. Yeah. But it's had that much of an impact. It's shaped so much of who I am, you know, and it has been the basis for all the other life experiences to come later to continue to shape me, you know. But it is the core of really, really where I am. And it is hard, hard to do. It's not fun. It's not easy. I experienced that. Oh, worth it. Three years ago.

[51:49] I think I've shared it here before. But it's no secret Jeff enjoys the psychedelic therapies. It's a thing he does. There are some of those I do that don't involve any substances. One of them is holotropic breathing. And it was late 2020. I think this episode was in mid-24 that it came out. I think we're just almost exactly at two years or a little more from when this came out the first time.

[52:14] So prior to this coming out, I went up almost into Canada, so far up north in Washington. And in fact, on my way back down, I met Nia for the first time. We had lunch. It was super cool. But I did this holotropic breathing exercise. And in that, I did exactly this. And it was a very experiential experience for me. I was there. I had to literally, it's almost, it almost hit me when he busted the glass, how like I had to break through a thing. And when I broke through, this is a three hour process that I experienced almost a week in time of things happening. The universe opened itself to me and showed me who I was. I, I, I, my headline for that experience was I, I sat and spoke with my dead mother and I held the hand of God because I literally like, that was what I was experiencing. And when I came out of it, it was like, this is who I am and this is how I fit into the universe. There was – I mean, and you were with me for so much of that journey of like the work that went into before that and then going up and that kind of culminated –.

[53:23] In that experience. I don't know that my experience is for everyone, but the experience of self-examination, deep, honest, hard self-examination is something every person should do. You will be different for it and you will be better for it. Condition stabilizing. We're getting normal operation.

[53:47] Of the left heart. Good, good. Notice the not steady cam on Jakar. Look, nice and still here, right? I'm sorry. Shagal. Shaky. Yeah. Very shaky. And the range of emotions he's going through right here, right now. Everything.

[54:14] And then beer. Whoa. For him to say I'm sorry and say Jakar's name.

[54:25] That's real. Well, I mean, he was saying sorry to an entire race of people, an entire world of people. To a galaxy. And he was able to focus it in on one person. To probably the one person that could encapsulate all of that for him. And Jakar turned around and walked away. You know, we've said before, and I'll say again, you know, you, you apologizing and asking forgiveness does not obligate the other person to immediately forgive. Right. I mean, you should forgive, but also do the work to make sure, like, don't just do it just because, you know, but do, do the work to really forgive. And I love Jakar's upcoming line here. You know, the doctor said. Well, and Jakar's a really good example of that. Back when Delenn came clean to him, you know, we knew, we knew all this stuff. I hope one day, Jakar, you can forgive, forgive me. And he's like, yeah, someday, not today. Yeah. And then we see that again here where he's like, he says, I'm sorry. He's like, I have to get out of here right now. I'm overwhelmed. Yeah.

[55:34] And in both cases, it turns out great because he took his time. And I do want to point out, and again, this is, this is the Bible according to Brent. A lot of people say this is the beginning of his redemption. It later gets actually fulfilled or completed with the fall of Centauri Prime when he accepts the Keeper and all that. And I would say the whole thing with the Keeper and all of that is actually, him working out what has happened here. The change happens here.

[56:02] This is where everything happens, is here for him. How he follows that up, which would not be possible without this happening here. That is all subsequent and secondary, frankly, to this. Also, the other side of that is without that, it makes this meaning. It's all one thing. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I'm not discounting that. I'm not discounting Fall of Centauri Prime. They're definitely connected.

[56:33] That gives this meaning. And without that, this has no meaning. But that is not this. This is something different than that. And that cannot happen without this. Let's get back to that. I like that a lot because –, I can change inside and that's awesome. That's a great thing. But if it doesn't impact anybody, what am I even doing? Yeah. Like that's, you're a clanging symbol. You're a clanging symbol. You know, faith without works is really what that is, you know, saved by faith, but faith without works is dead, you know, to put a theological side on that. And it's, and again, the same thing. It's all important. It's not that one is more important than the other. It's all one thing. And so, yeah, And I would also encourage us all, let's not get lost in terminology and semantics. You know, oh, well, redemption, that's just semantics of where things are being placed. According to some of our folk tales, if the spirit of a centauri ends up in a body that's not worthy of its presence, it can choose to separate.

[57:39] To cause the death of the body so that it can then move on to a worthier host. I hate that i hate that so much one, don't explain don't try to explain what happened i'm with andrew and it's all don't get cutesy and here's just let the thing lie but also you know a thing i've learned about the centauri in the four odd some odd years we've been hanging out with him here what's that they are, pieces of garbage like they are there are so many horrible horrible centauri and their culture thrives on it this would happen so many times there would be so many spirits leaving so many bodies for them to die because they suck, this is this is dumb.

[58:24] Oh, now we're back to this story. I forgot this was a part of this episode. Be well, my good and dear friend. Now, see, that is honest. Like, she's really going to miss him. She really doesn't want him to go do this for multiple reasons. Not the least of which is concern for him, and she's going to miss him. Jameis says the only thing more infinite than space is the heart's capacity for self-delusion. Oh, that's good. In regards to linear specifically.

[59:04] That felt so short. It did. I feel like in my memory, there was, it's weird. Like I feels like there was so much more. And it also feels like there was so much. Turns out JMS knows how to write an episode of TV. This, I mean, this is, this is about as dang near perfect of an episode as you can get through and through writing direction, acting, even, even the places where I, I, I mean, I can disagree with the way that the Lynn approaches stuff, but the way mirror acted it, the way the lines are written, The way, the way it's directed, the way it's shot, like it's perfection, man. Even Lanier and his stuff. He's carrying it again. The whole like fairy tale thing is stupid, but Londo and Veer carry it well.

[59:50] And really plays on their relationship. So linear here at the end, he does the, he does the, the, the stupid sappy breakup line. I'll always love you. There'll always be a piece of me that loves you. If I can, you know, come over here and sit on the front porch and let old Uncle Brent talk to you about something here. I remember. I'm just, I'll tell this story. I've probably said it here before. I'll say it again. I remember the girl that I dated prior to dating my wife. We'd been together a couple years. You know, it was not a short relationship by any stretch of the imagination. And I, I remember when we broke up, there was a piece of me that was, I was going to do the stupid sappy, you know, there will always be a piece of me that loves you. Like she's a, she's a great girl. Okay. Like she, there, there's no bad blood between me and her at all. The, the, the breaking up, it, it was really a thing of circumstance and family and, and stuff like that. Like it was just no ill will, no, no.

[1:00:56] It just, we just weren't going to work. But I remember stopping myself in that moment before I got through that. And I just, I said, like I said to myself in, you know, at that time I was like, I don't, I don't want someone else to always have a part of my heart. I don't want someone else to always have this little piece of me because when I find the person who does say yes, she said no, right? Like ultimately she said no to me. When I find the person that does say yes, I want them to have my whole heart. Lanier just did the, I'll always love you. I'll always like, dude, she chose somebody else. She did not choose you. Stop it. Shut your mouth. Move on. Like, I know it sucks. This one's not for you and they ask a great question does linear has linear actually met any other female membari, probably a good point go meet some go out of the town do a meetup yeah do something yeah although i gotta tell you i was out i was out in a new town last night i happened to be by myself, you know and like i went out not necessarily looking to meet other people and i don't know if i'm just giving off a stay away from me vibe or whatever, but like like i was just out i was just hanging out just kind of wanted to be in a crowd and stuff nobody came to talk to me no like.

[1:02:21] This was not a i think vibe is a thing in that it might be it might be like i wasn't trying to like keep people away like i really wasn't i was just gonna do my own thing man like i've experienced very much the opposite i know a number of times i know you have i've watched it right And it's not, but you know, I, I couldn't agree more with what you just said. And oftentimes we say those things, not for the person, but to make us feel better because, you know, in this case, Dylan, doesn't care i'll always love you yeah i actually don't care about that at all um i just want you to do my scheduling for me still also you're cool and i respect you and whatnot but i don't care that you love me it's just to make you feel better, a line i i we've watched too many stupid movies, as kids and teenagers right yeah it's just all that that's the thing man it's, i know this is this is this is will be offensive to you but take it for what it's worth, it's the disneyfication of romance, oh it's oh my life is this and my heart flutters and, you're not wrong i say that's the thing you're not wrong i can't i i know what you mean when you say that yes i take offense but you're not wrong we have like a couple generations now that have been fed that line of bs and that's what they're expecting and that's why.

[1:03:42] There's a bunch of 50 plus year olds who are all of a sudden you know trying to figure out how to meet people because they're like i thought i was gonna get a Yeah, that's not real. It doesn't happen. But to your earlier point, I came up with this line because I've been through things, not nearly as.

[1:04:01] Amicable as ending as you had, not even close. But I still, like I saw there were still feelings, right? And so what I kind of came up with to manage that was I will never not regret my time with you. I will never i i will never regret my time with you i was saying yeah i think yeah yeah i will never regret my time yeah i'll never i'll never feel bad that we spend our time, it's the thing where when you meet someone they are the right person at that time and sometimes that time is the rest of your life and sometimes it's two nights it's, uh i read a thing once it was pretty profound or one afternoon right sometimes, sometimes less than that uh.

[1:04:46] But so there's for the right amount of time but i read this, I read this incredible thing that has stuck with me, and that is every single relationship in your life has an expiration date. Sure. And I think when you can understand that, it's just more liberating. It's not that I did something wrong or you did something wrong. It's just we met our expiration date. And I can choose to appreciate the time that we had, or I can choose to be super bitter that we expired. And I think it's okay to feel that way for a while. And then occasionally again from time to time, but you got to pack that stuff up and move forward. You know, whenever we get these movies and these stories about immortal people who just live forever, you know, and inevitably what is it? They fell in love with somebody and that person was mortal and then they died and now they're mean and they're bitter and they're whatever and it's made them this really bad person. And I, like, I've always, I've always been like, if you're an immortal person, and you've lived lifetime to lifetime to lifetime, you understand that idea. My relationships are for this amount of time in this space of my life, in this season. And I can be thankful for that. And I'm in a new season now. And that, like, it's a different understanding of the way things work as an immortal, right?

[1:06:07] The only thing I will push back on you is for me and my wife, even in death, like, we'll just be together, it'll be okay. Well, it's an expiration date that we don't have numbers for beyond. It's a mystery. No, I reject that idea. It's just not. I'm going to clip that and send it to her. Be like, look, look what he said. He loves you so much. Thank you. I need a few extra points.

[1:06:33] You know one of the things that we love is when jms silver platters the message for us, oh please tell me he does yes and great and i'm gonna it's incredible but also i'm a little bit disappointed that this is it i feel like there's so much so much in this one but he says that, the real point of this episode is londo and londo is meant to show the importance of speaking out about the evil of doing nothing in the face of evil the samurai had a saying slay evil immediately.

[1:07:04] Don't think about it don't dwell on it just do it we often don't understand i love this we often don't understand the degree of uninvolvement we have in our own lives until we are on the verge of losing it wow, we talked about that last time the difference between living and surviving so i'm sorry i'm sorry i want to i want to so what what he's saying, is that londo is a person who has not slain evil immediately exactly and that evil has been allowed to build up inside his own soul, to get to this part and what we had to watch him do was we had to watch him slay or break some glass or whatever, to get down i mean this is exactly what we were talking about, in the episode he had to break through all of that stuff could work do all that work to get down to who he really he is in the, in the core of his being, he had to go through all that with himself. Whereas if he would have taken care of that as he went, it wouldn't have been so it wouldn't, it wouldn't have taken him to the point of death. Right. As this one did. If I'm, if I'm translating that correct, I, I, okay. Yeah, I think it's perfect. I was just going to say, we talked last time about living and surviving. I'm really struck with the degree of uninvolvement in our own lives. Right.

[1:08:25] I've asked us many times in this episode to hold up mirrors to ourselves. I'm going to ask it again. How many, how many of you, and I've been this before also, this is no shame in it, are just going through the motions in life. You wake up, you go to work, come home, you watch a little TV, you go to bed, you get up, you go to work, you come home, you watch, just in the routine, doing things. That is, that is uninvolvement. You are not involved in your own life. You can still go to work, watch a show at night or whatever, but be intentional about what you do, focused on and involved.

[1:09:02] He really talks about here slaying evil. We've talked quite a bit, especially in intersections in real time, that evil looks a lot of different ways. And evil is not always like this arch villain. sometimes evil is uh the the bag of doritos that i have sitting downstairs, that i might just want to pop open and eat the whole thing because you know, evil might be hey i really should go to for your earlier example i really need i should go to the gym the voice is telling me that instead i'm going to do this right those small tiny choices that we unintentionally, make you know like they just, they feel automatic almost. Slow down and be intentional. Be involved in your own life. Slay the evil that doesn't, even that doesn't seem so evil. Is there anything else message-wise that you wanted to get into? I mean, dude, we've got... 14 we got 13 hours and 53 minutes left we could continue to talk about this man like there's just so much and and, you know i think for what we've got here we've encapsulated most of it um if i could just sort of put a put a capstone on the whole thing, probably a rehashing of a lot of what we said in the first one uh.

[1:10:14] I like what you just said keep keep you know slay the evil keep your accounts short, keep your conscience clear, right? Do the work, um, make your apologies, ask for your forgiveness, be able to be able to move on. And, and, you know, if, if you're a person who needs to issue forgiveness, make it real, do the work to get yourself to a spot where you can issue forgiveness because holding on, I said this to a good friend earlier today, uh, holding on to bitterness that I've often heard and I seal it again is it's like drinking poison, but hoping the other person dies. And, and sometimes it's hard. It is hard to issue forgiveness, but do the work. You know, what we watched was Jakar walk away in that moment. He wasn't ready for himself, but he needed that. Didn't change it for Londo to need to be able to say it. So, um, we got a lot of pushback the first time around we did on saying that, uh, people like, well, I just feel like it It puts people in an awkward spot or something like that. Well, put them in the awkward spot. We'd be a whole lot better off as a world, if we all had to face that kind of stuff. I agree. And I'm prepared for the emails we're going to get this time around. Well, Jeff, I'm going to go through this just because it's the exercise that we do. Hey, can I tell you something really quick? Yeah. Look at the ranking. All right. I already did it.

[1:11:39] It's number one we're creating our 100% accurate and definitive ranking of season five Babylon five for the second time at which very long night of London Malari is number one, number two is no compromises and that's the way it's going to be that is the correct, uh it wasn't really going to be a question for me Jeff it was more just the formality of making sure it's slotted in there so and I'd go a step further and use a, Phrase from pro wrestling, the number one spot is this episode spot to lose. Like it is number one until proven otherwise. Well, and again, we take sleeping and light out of the running, right? It is its own. It's just, it's its own thing. Right. Um, you know, and Ben points out what may be the very best thing of this entire episode. Jeff, no Byron. There is that. There is not a single golden haired thread in this entire episode. It's our last moment of reprieve for quite a while. Yes. Well, speaking of which, Jeff, we dive back into Byron a little bit next week with an episode called The Paragon of Animals. Jeff, do you remember what you thought about this one? I freaking hated this episode. Yeah. It's so dumb. This is.

[1:12:57] Where we start getting Byron's philosophy. He sits down and he talks. I think he actually calls them somebody, the paragon of animals or something. Well, I think it's a quote from – Shakespeare. I don't know. Hemingway or Shakespeare or something like that. Yeah, somebody. I don't know. But yeah.

[1:13:17] Now that I think about it though, I think that this actually starts the – what It ends up being the Drock piece, like the random attacks.

[1:13:28] Is that this? I think that happens in this episode, I think is when it starts. And I remember us being quite frustrated with kind of where that went. I'm going to be really interested in watching it this time with an eye towards, hey, we know what it is. What does it look like this time? Did you feel any differently about this episode? Yeah.

[1:13:45] I remember thinking this episode moved very slow. I remember liking something that Sheridan does felt. It was very Sinclair esque. And like, I think that was the like one bright spot. Like I really liked however Sheridan did something. I don't even remember what it was, but ultimately I just remember this being very, very slow. And, uh, yeah. Yeah. And just wanting to move on to the next episode. Like I would offer this, Like, I think it's one of the cool things about this second time watch, right? We've been, we've had our minds changed about episodes in both directions on this incredible journey. And so like, maybe, maybe think about it that way as we go in the next week, because I think as I was listening to us, if I'm, if I'm one of you watching or listening right now, I'm like, well, why would I tune in next week? This thing is going to suck. It might not is the thing. And I think one of the coolest things about this is watching us have our minds changed or be proven wrong. I think back to, uh, between the darkness and the light when like, Hey, what do you remember this episode? I'm like, Oh man, it's such a good time. Like they go and they're in the tunnels and they're doing this stuff. And it's like, Oh crap, this is where Ivana gets. Oh no.

[1:14:59] Cause we remember things right. So I think it's still going to be, you will give a good episode. We'll give a good episode and everybody's going to enjoy it. And they're going to catch it because, Brent, they have already subscribed. They were doing it while I was talking. If you missed it, now is your opportunity to subscribe wherever you're watching or listening. Leave a rating, leave a review, comment, join the conversation. Do all that incredible stuff. We talk about the calling of your heart in a legitimate way, not in a linear running away from reality way. The calling of your heart is to serve and to grow the community. You can do so by sharing this show. Share it with somebody else and let's grow. So until next time, I'm Jeff Bacon. Hey, Jeff. Yeah, man. What is up? Hey, I just wanted to tell you. I've done the work. What work did you do? I slayed the evil. Slay queen! I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.