Between the Darkness and the Light | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. My name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters until we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, because after that, everything changed. So now we're here watching this incredible series for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice. That's right. You know what we get to do for the first time every time we do one of these? Search out messages. We do. Absolutely. Sometimes they might be the same. Sometimes they might be new. Sometimes things change. Sometimes new things occur to you, whatever they are. But the truth is fluid. So it can change. It is time-bound most of the time. Circumstances change, which change. Anyway, what are we looking for, Jeff? What are the things that we count as messages, as truths in this show? We look for a mirror to society. That's a good one. Hope that the future can be better. Always a good one. Right. Those are the ones I think that we have the hardest time finding more often than not. Unfortunately. In Babylon 5, yes. Yeah. Yeah. In other properties. Stargate, too.

[2:03] Other properties, that's actually what this show is about, is about hope for a better future. Yeah. And then finally, the last one, Jeff. Is how to be better human beings to one another. Oh, I don't know anything about that.

[2:16] Jeff's like, be better human being. What's that? Why even be a human being? Right? Oh, my gosh. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Now, that being said, hey, everybody, if this is your first time through the series, be warned because this is not Jeff and mine's first time through the series. We are not holding anything back. We are free to talk about anything from any point in the timeline, anywhere in the franchise, whether it's Babylon 5, Crusade, books, novels, comic books, whatever. We can talk about things that have been said at conventions, private conversations, things written down in documentaries.

[2:53] It's all fair game for Jeff and I to talk about. So if this is your first time, please be aware this is your one and only spoiler warning. My warning is sincere. Ignore it at your own peril. This week, Brent, we're watching an episode called Between the Darkness and the Light. When we watched this for the first time, we played a game where we would predict what the next episode was going to be about based on the title alone. Frankly, my prediction was pretty lame. I was just like, hey, this is going to be all the stuff that was happening during the interrogation. Yeah. Ivanova going and freeing colonies. That's going to be the whole episode. That makes sense. It does make sense. Yes. It's what happened with two towers, right? Like we get Fellowship of the Ring. That's all together. And then you get into two towers and it splits. Like here's what's going on in this part. And then we're going to backtrack and start over. And here's what's going on on this other side over here. Exactly. Cover all the stuff that was there. What did you predict for this one? I said that we might not even see Sheridan in this next episode, but it's the rescue attempt. Okay. That's where we are. Last week I said should have been the redemption of Michael Garibaldi. I about said Gambini.

[4:04] Because why not? Well, I'm watching my cousin Vinny, you know. No, it was the redemption of Michael Garibaldi. Not at all what it was about, but this one would be the retrieval of John Sheridan. There you go. There you go. What do you say? we do a little look back in the Wayback Machine and see some of the things we thought about it the first time around. I think we should do that.

[4:24] Previously, on Babylon 5 for the first time, between the darkness and the light. This gaslighting story, they're trying to get him to believe the story that they've concocted about him. They're just going to keep on insisting that this was history until he believes it. I was impressed with how easily he still fought back. Even drugged up, Sherry was like, no, that didn't happen. And so they added more drugs. I even loved that, where they just told him exactly what's going to happen. Here, we're going to put this in his drink. It'll break him. Here, would you like some more coffee? Oh, yeah, thanks. You and I have given Franklin a hard time over the course of this series. Yeah. The way that Franklin insisted on hearing Garibaldi's side of the story. One of the best Franklin moments I've seen in this entire series. Leta was having a lot of trouble getting through these blocks of Garibaldi. But I thought Leta was, like, super charged. I think she had trouble getting through them because she didn't want to hurt Garibaldi. They go in, they get Sheridan. He's high as a kite. Michael, I was going to kick your butt for something, but I don't remember.

[5:37] We've got Londo and Jakar. I get what they did. I'm not okay with it, though. The guiding principle that Sheridan has had through this whole thing, and I feel like he's been crystal clear about, is this is an Earth thing. But the minute some alien fleet pops through to help with the battle, everything that propaganda machine has been saying gets confirmed. The sentiment is great, but the execution, I think, is super contrary to what Sheridan has been trying to build here. So they're going to go take on these new destroyers. God sent me. Everything we've known about Ivanova built to that line. I didn't think that she was hurt that. I mean, I knew she was hurt. I didn't think it was going to go this far. My exact line was, so help me if she's leaving the show. Because I'm not okay with this. No. I mean, we still have three more episodes. Exactly. But I'm like, wait a minute. No, no, no. This is not okay. I tell you, between now and watching this next episode, this is all I'm thinking about is what's going to happen to Ivanova. I think that next week we're going to get the redemption of Dr. Franklin. And he's going to hook himself up to the quality of mercy machine. He's going to save Ivanova.

[6:54] That was great to land. That was so awesome. I am not mentally or emotionally prepared for this episode. Brent. I for, I didn't. I, Ivana was leaving the show. She was, I mean, now we, we, we know what was going on in the real world and things would happen later and all that sort of stuff. And, and, but I, I want to know what you guys out there thought who were with us during the first time when I was like, so help me if Ivana was leaving the show. Right. Cause three episodes later, she's out.

[7:23] I would just, I would love to know what your guys, your guys's reaction to that was. Cause I'm still not okay with her, her leaving the show. Um, I am, I gotta tell you though, I am highly interested in rewatching season five with Lockley coming in, seeing Lockley through the crusade eyes. Yeah. Knowing her that much better than we did the first time around. Yeah. You know? Um, and yeah. And Nia points out, like, I get it. this was written before, uh what it wasn't written before she was leaving they were all leaving because the show was done we were wrapping all that up right you know but i she was still intended to live i think this is actually leading to marcus's death yeah also i forgot that i used to have that cup and i really want that cup back i don't know where that cup is which cup that orange that orange bucko bruce cup oh yeah that i was drinking out of i don't know where that cup is there anymore oh i love that cup it's a great cup, i'm just stuck in this moment where i'm remembering last week where i'm like oh i love this episode it's so much fun and i remember it fond excuse me while i eat those words.

[8:34] There is some fun in this episode i'm looking forward to seeing that so brent what do you say we dive in no i think we just meander around here for a while i would kind of like to not watch this if i'm being honest like no we're gonna watch this episode i did i, yeah this is the one where ivanova gets a face full of uh face full of destroyer starship right yeah yeah, I thought that was next week. Honestly, I did too. I did too. Yeah.

[9:04] Also call it. Good job, Jeff. Good job. Well, let's do the thing. Let's get into this episode. All right. So we're going to literally get into the episode. We're going to bring it up and we're going to watch it. Brent and I will comment as we're watching it. We will be in the episode. Actually, we'll actually be in the episode. You look Mac and Bo are in the background. That's actually Jeff and Brent. Watch it. That was when we saw our SAG cards. It was great. You'll see us in the background. We're going to edit that up for YouTube, like a reaction style video, all the stuff there. The full and unedited version is going to be posted on our Patreon page at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And for audio podcasters out there, no worries. You're going to hear all of it. We're not leaving you guys out. We haven't forgotten. So with that, Jeff, let's dive into the episode. Let's go. Accessing file. It's great to have you back, Captain. Thanks. It's good to be back. Yeah, his hair is really trying to bite, isn't it? It is. I don't know if I, it's shocking to me. So, you ever told me my contact? Yes, your contact.

[10:11] It's, uh... Yeah, I remember that so psyching me out the first time. Yeah. We don't use dames. We don't want cooperation. We want conversion. Conversion. We want repentance. Can you imagine if we actually got Richard Biggs playing an actual villain? I know he'd been great. He's almost there. This should help. More coffee? It'll make you feel better. The best part of waking up is truth. Drugs in my cup. He rolled his eyes at me. That's uncool. I did too, frankly. That scene was, like I said, constructed brilliantly or whatever. What's also awesome is the last thing that we saw was them just starting this again. So to come in with this, like the first impression is almost like, oh my God, is this going to be a whole other episode of him just getting interrogated? Like, is this? Also, how long have they now been at this? Exactly. Same interrogator is, you know, so maybe not that long, but. Are we still on the second cycle? Have to be. Same interrogator, second cycle. It's about time. They didn't leave me. Oh!

[11:28] He deserved that, but he didn't, but he did as far as they're, they're concerned. Yeah. As far as they knew. Yeah. Although maybe don't go in and just hit people. I mean, look, I wholeheartedly understand the utter primal urge to want to punch somebody in the throat. Yep. I get it. There's a little man in there who goes, Hey, probably not a good idea to just come out with that. Sometimes you got to listen to the little man up there. You know what I mean? He's your friend. But he's union. He takes breaks. And sometimes it just happens. He's union.

[12:08] Didn't that he'll do a lunch and break time? Okay. Over the course of our recording of the last bunch of episodes, Jeff, we have seen some incredible cold open, not trailers, but cold openings. Yeah, cold opens that like have made you get to the openings just being where's the freaking skip intro button. Right i don't know that that one got me i agree i don't know that that one really like like it grabbed me like i'm in it i want to see exactly what's going to happen but i don't know that it like was like get it get through oh my gosh you know what i mean yeah it's like, yeah well i mean we saw garibaldi get hit and you're kind of like yeah i kind of deserved it, there's a thing with babylon 5 that we experienced where you get to a point where the things just start happening like oh yep there's that thing that oh there's that thing and it's a good it's awesome to watch It's cool, but it's not like, oh, my God, what's going to happen? It's like, of course he's getting punched in the stomach in the face. Did you tell him it wasn't my fault? Yeah, but they don't care. I want to hear his side of the story. What side? He set Sheridan up. We have 30 witnesses. Now he wants to set us up too. I still want to hear his side of the story. There's your message. Listen to both sides of the story. Don't assume.

[13:20] This, by the way, is why trials in courts actually exist. Because of this, we've got all these witnesses. Of course he did it. So yeah, now we're just going to shoot him and kill him. But wait a minute. Like in biblical times, what was it? If two people witness a thing, it's true. It was, I mean, it was enough to convict, but that assumes that they're not lying. Well, why would they lie? I mean, they said they saw it. But look, here's the thing though. Here's the thing though. He did set Sheridan up. He did betray Sheridan. That's not in dispute. The reason why that's what we got to get to. So even if there's two or more witnesses, that doesn't necessarily negate the truth or falseness of something, assuming they're telling the truth, right? But you do have to go deeper than that.

[14:07] The difference in the why is the difference between 20 years and life. Why'd you do it it was best, it's also a pretty like you made me turn against everybody i knew convenient story uh, bester it was a telepath thing uh it wasn't me at all i feel like they should be able to run tests to actually confirm that i feel like there should be like psycho psychological markers, like fine let's get lead in here and have her look in there and see if she sees what you're talking about yeah they're gonna, i i know but i mean like that feels like like well yes a convenient story but one that is also easily proved do you remember what harlan said to this or harlan said what bester said to the stupid computer voice, no he said we're gonna go in there we gotta be careful we can't leave any fingerprints so i think normally yeah but, he was in there with the the elite the best of the best and so well because they needed him to be able to be scanned and have people believe that it was still them but now they're on the back side though now they're on the backside and buster treated him very almost.

[15:10] Laissez-faire is that the right word i think so at the end there when they were in the tube, so as careful as they were up front on the back end not so much because he still and the other thing is he still has a block in there surely they'll be able to detect the block so yeah it's a convenient story one that's easily proven let's do that it's verifiable yeah, he was trying to find out who was behind a conspiracy against the psychor yeah and a dog ate your homework get this over with we've got work i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm bringing this up ben in our council chamber is like honey did you leave the toilet seat up, uh no it was bester right i love it, lita lita you can scan me.

[15:51] You can tell him what i'm saying is the truth him asking for a scan has to go a long ways sure i agree but i sure would like to I, didn't know. Those are level 12 blocks. Only a Psy cup can put them in or break them.

[16:11] Except you're more powerful than that now, Lita. Do you see where her hand is placed? Very close to where Tuvok would put his hand. Yeah, it's the thing I hate about the mind melds and all this stuff. Do you know what's not here? Your brain? Your brain. Your brain stem? Yeah. Well, but the mind melds, they actually go up here. I don't know why. I think this is just a brace, you know. Maybe. Because a lot of times they do it like this. This down here is weird. It's dumb. This one up here, like I get it up there. That makes more sense. But like this, you're like, are you going to catch his head? What are you doing? Michael, you okay?

[16:46] No, I'm not okay. Yeah. I just realized I need a lot more fiber in my diet. It's true. Because he's constipated? What he told us it's true. He says it's true. He does need more fiber. Like that means a damn. How the hell do we know what you saw? Why the hell should I believe anything you have to see? What do you know about hell?

[17:07] Would you like me to show it to you? Honestly, she brings up a really good point. Does number one, do any of those people trust telepaths? No. Okay. Why would they believe what Lita has to say? Especially, yeah, because Lita is a friend of Garibaldi's. Honestly, the best way to have this happen, I think is actually what Lita is about to do, is for Lita to give those memories also to old girl. Of course, how do you verify that those are the memories that came from Garibaldi and not just ones that she made up, right? But just go with me. That would be that bridge, but also why would number one ever allow herself to be implanted with memories either? And here you find a catch-22. He has a story. He can't prove it. This person says yes, but you don't trust that person. They're not a credible witness. And the only way for her to prove it is to do what she's about to do and violate your mind. Yeah. But once again, how do you know that whatever she's putting in my mind is actually the truth? Yeah. You don't. Damn. It's true. They're turning towards us. The targeting system is online. Let them take the first shot. Second tactical squadron, follow us in.

[18:22] Well, she's really taken over, hasn't she? What I like about it is she's maintaining all of Sheridan's values in it, but she is not wasting any time. Yeah. If you do this, I'm going to fire on you. Oh, they did it. I'm firing. Like, with Sheridan, there was some back and forth. Weapon systems and engines destroyed. We have to make them understand that if they target innocent people, they can't run. They can't hide. I mean, President Clark is issuing the orders, but they're pulling the trigger. Besides, every time we engage the other side, we get one or two defectors to join up. I like how Ivanova keeps it clear. There's a reason.

[18:59] We can't let these guys go. They're just as guilty, if not more so. He's issuing the orders, but they're the ones pulling the trigger. And it's not a, you're an enemy combatant. No, no, no. If you fire on civilians, if you do this to civilians, you're done. You're done. And for people that are in authority who do stuff to civilians to people who have legal status when the time comes it should be done it should be done yep, which is why i can only afford to give you a skeleton crew just enough to get you inside after that you're on your own but you can't yes i can we are up to our eyes and troops around here steven and i'm not risking any more on this than i have to.

[19:41] You know a thing i appreciate is that like they slept together, and i think especially in television when that happens like in a real life things change stuff did not change between the two of them she's like hey we had a good time and did whatever now i'm number one, and this is my job and this is my charge and i am doing it with no regard for what we shared and i think that's a good thing yeah and, yeah she she still has a responsibility first and foremost to her people right exactly and and to what they have going on and yeah there's all of this over here i'm gonna help out, but there's a limit to how much i can help out because we still have all of this other stuff happening here now i must call for a vote a vote on what, then you shouldn't be here since the war we have begun working together as never before in the past we had nothing in common but now the humans have become the glue that holds us together, we wanted to send a message that the The council speaks as one for the right reasons, not out of any personal agenda. Sheridan is not alone, and you are not alone.

[20:48] The League stands with you. We all stand with you. They find you in this sector. They don't even pretend to... Who's this check? She's the one from Buffy, the first season of Buffy. She was the schoolteacher in an episode when she was actually like a mantis. What was that? A teenage boy. Marsquake. All right, who gulped? Somebody gulped. Look, we have got a long way to go. We're supposed to sip not go. I didn't go. No, I said you I believe Well, why do you believe her or not me because when you lie, it's all over your face She's a much better liar than you are. Thank you. Wait a minute. Look the next time you're gonna carry the canteen I'm gonna go. I don't like what I'm hearing here. I'm not a great liar. I'm a terrible liar You know, I don't know who's been saying these things, but I want you to know when we get back I am gonna sue somebody. I don't know who and I don't know how but a guy by God. I am gonna sue somebody I.

[21:41] So fun fact okay um the whole garibaldi material up through the the the map sequence with with number, one um that was actually supposed to be or that was originally in intersections, but intersections ran over by about eight minutes and this episode ran short by about eight minutes okay so they were just like oh look it fits better over here i uh, you made a point recently about how like how can sheridan let garibaldi back in yeah after this so, eight minutes ago yeah they were punching garibaldi in the face and being like we're gonna shoot you because you did awful things now, we're joking about gulp or sip like nothing ever happened we're just having a good time, although to be fair it was number one who was gonna shoot him in the head franklin was like now you got to tell me what's up he was ready to shoot him in the head though if if it went a different way would you come on already, i feel like she's so great in moments and other times it's just like how did you get this job right.

[22:52] Watch your back garibaldi watch your back what is wrong with you dude do you never learn i think you should stay here Afternoon. We understand you've got Sheridan in there. I'm the one who turned him in. Maybe you saw me on ISN. I don't watch TV. It's a cultural wasteland filled with inappropriate metaphors and an unrealistic portrayal of life created by the liberal media elite. He's 100% behind clubs. Good. Now that we've established some common ground... Yeah, I've... He's here somewhere. Get out!

[23:31] Did she really throw a punch he thought as soon as you said it seven 12 54 50 that is stargate level self-awareness, michael boy i was gonna kick your butt for something i'm gonna i don't remember, what drug is it jeff i don't even know it's a little psilocybin over there isn't it rice hey this is pretty trippy dude you look so beautiful so colorful bright i need you to stop moving for a few minutes man i, love looking at you but i can't look we need i'm ready to travel i'll do my best so someone asked a question, how come they didn't have any cameras monitoring sheridan there that they could just walk in and take him well because then they'd have evidence well jms's response torturers rarely videotaped their work assuring it can never be used against them should things you know not go their way put me on with him, give me firing control she's like I got this.

[24:31] This is the White Star Fleet. Negative on surrender. We will not stand down. Who is this? Identify yourself. With what Ivanova is about to say here about her speech. JMS says, yeah, it's a bit over the top. Deliberately so. I put it in the category of a boxer who's going up against an opponent who may be well matched, but needs to psych out the other person. If you look at speeches like give me liberty or give me death or something like that, they're made to rally support, make a point, and generally they are bigger than life and always a bit over the top. And that's where a lot of it is right now. It very much is. Here we go. Who am I?

[25:16] I am Susan Ivanova. Commander. Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanova. I am the right hand of vengeance. And the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart. Sweetheart. I am death incarnate. And the last living thing that you are ever going to see. Dude, whatever they've done with like her eyebrows and her lipstick and everything right here. You sent, me. I like that she said, give me firing control. Yeah. Let me be the one to press the button. So just in case you were wondering while this fight is going on, these new shadow infused earth ships, not susceptible to telepaths, because they don't have the CPUs in them. Okay, yeah. That makes sense. White stars four and nine are on it. Susan!

[26:16] Stop they're all in the bridge uh-huh she's standing maybe, on a big bridge 20 feet in front of them if that maybe this thing comes in and takes out the bridge and she's the only one and he's like avonava no, everybody else is like oh that was minorly inconvenient and she's like oh i'm, dead dying i got a face full of ship i mean it's a good thing we were back here, and not up there with you. I mean, we had that chair between us. Thank goodness. So JMS says there was a small scene that existed between John shooting the guard of the thing and this moment right here. They had to cut it for time. No word on what that scene was. I think not important. I got the bed just how she likes it. Nice and flat. They didn't want to. Thought it was bad luck. Didn't know what else to do. We cleared the way for you, John. All the way to Mars. You're my friend, John.

[27:36] Tell me the truth. I'm not gonna make it, am I?

[27:47] No. No, they say the damage is... I'm sorry, Spouse. That was real friendship right there. Like, deep, real friendship. It's okay. You've carried so much guilt around in your life. Don't carry any more for me. Or I'm gonna come back and kick your ass. I was sent from God after all Do something for me Anything What is it? It's not what Where Captain on deck You probably shouldn't be back in uniform and in command again Right, probably take some time I'm assuming the command of the Agamemnon, Put us on course For Mars Aye aye sir.

[28:52] Why do we have to stop? It's such a fun episode that I'm crying again from this thing. Dang it.

[29:02] What a perfect place to make you be like. Right. Exactly. God forbid I miss next week's episode. That's where you're going to leave me? That's what you're going to leave me on? Are you freaking kidding me? It's so brilliant. Everything about it again. It's the roller coaster. We talked about it before. This is 10 pounds of fat, shoved into a five pound bag. Right. But like, is it, is it a perfect episode? Do you have any complaints about this episode? Yes. That it ended. Ivanova took a ship to the face.

[29:35] That was kind of ridiculous. Honestly, like this, the, I'm not a scientist or an educated man. And I will say the physics of that whole thing was stupid. Well, I have some education and some science and I can tell you, yeah, the physics of that thing were stupid. But also for as much of physics that they do properly in this show, they miss it more often. They miss it. Not infrequently too, but that's called science fiction. We, we, we let that go because of the emotional impact in the story that the writer is trying to tell us. Yeah. Yep. I agree. But still, she was 20 feet max in front of him and took a whole ship to the cockpit. And I think to be fair, the only one who didn't get hurt was Marcus. Well, yeah, everybody else was buried. I think it was Deborah in the chat was like, she's got the neck brace on. And so really the, what hurt her was probably Marcus. Picking her up like do you see him just like ragdoll picking her up off the ground he probably broke her neck marcus killed her i'd be messed up i mean.

[30:37] Maybe but it's like somebody who's been impaled with something and somebody like tries to remove it and then actually you that was stimming the blood flow and you just let the blood flow go you would have been better to leave it in uh probably, probably i don't know how much medical field field medic training rangers get probably a lot i would guess but you know again like kind of looking at the episode critically, while i enjoyed the whole tunnel sequence that happened it also was kind of ridiculous yeah this fun pain and gulp, fun the whole i'm gonna sue somebody i don't know how but i'm gonna like i enjoyed it i'm not saying it was bad, it would not have been in a perfect episode i the the guy that was the guard behind the glass yeah yeah i mean.

[31:27] Look he's right up there with leona kimmer in my book wow, it was not okay no that was truth like it's just not okay yeah it was bad like i mean you had to hire somebody like this dude came out of central casting and somebody didn't show up so they pulled him off the he was like the best boy and they're like come on, you're getting your card today it's got to be like a budget thing because they had him and then they had the dude at the door who was like the media is a liberal waste cultural wasteland who is except i know people like that i was like i recognize that, i know them too but like his recitation of that uh left a lot to be desired from an acting standpoint and that is the end of the nitpicking i can do, on this episode that's so minimal that's so minimal yeah Right? Top three episode. I mean. Like all the other ones. But this episode also wouldn't be anything without all the episodes that came before it to set this up. Exactly. Did you pull it? Did we get much messages? I don't think we did. Sometimes you don't. It's just a freaking episode, man. They barely had time to fit plot into this episode, let alone a message.

[32:42] You talked about the message early on. Listen to both sides of the story. There's more to the story than is on the surface. There you go. Yeah, this episode, man, I mean, you pack so much into one 45-minute episode. Ben in our council chambers has been saying multiple times, this was three episodes packed into one. You could have split this out and had three entirely separate episodes based off of what happened in this. And I don't think he's wrong, but I think if you were to do that, all of those episodes would feel kind of draggy. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, you could make an episode out of each one of those and really spend some more time in it and mine some stuff out of it. But that would have to be filled up with a lot of character B plot to take up time. I think this is one of those examples of budget, time constraints, real world stuff behind the scenes, working together, conspiring together with the universe to give us one really great episode. What was it we said a couple of weeks ago? Constraints. Constraints and creativity. And here it is. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, hey, studio execs, just a thought. Stop telling people what to do. Just give them constraints and make them be creative inside the box. Yeah. Here's your money. Here's your time. Go. And this is non-negotiable. Just go. Go do your art thing. We're going to trust you as the creative to do the creative thing.

[34:12] I have a constraint for you my friend yeah i dust this thing off really quick this what i have in front of me is the, true and accurate and definitively objectively correct ranking of all the episodes in season four of babylon five this week you are placing between the darkness and the light, um brent i am going to go ahead and pick a zone and read these out you can tell me if where it's going to land. Number six, we've got whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi and number five at atonement number four, the long night three, no surrender, no retreat. And the number two spot last week's episode intersections in real time. Where Brent does this bad boy go? Well, it's not one, two or three. Is it better than atonement, man? This is where you get into that whole piece of by what criteria are we talking?

[35:02] Cause I can make the argument that atonement is actually the much better, stronger episode than this one with what it delivers the backstory it gives us with the character work the development the acting all of that sort of stuff the plot the pacing what they put together, the constraints of what we were given with this.

[35:21] Man i i would rather watch this episode over that one again i think this episode makes me immediately want to go give me the next episode give me the next episode atonement was like hey that was a cool 45 minutes let's go do something else now very contained the long night, that was the episode just prior to into the fire right yeah it's cartagia eating it, that's pretty great too yeah very good pretty seminal but i think what i'm gonna do jeff is i'm going to allow, into the fire to stand for, all of those top six episodes of the season carry that torch and so this is going to become our new number four now that's still going to be leave long night in wow the top five spot but uh, wow this is a good episode man, It makes me want to move on to the next episode. It really does. Could you make the argument that Long Night is actually above this one and this is above Atonement? Yeah. Yeah. And that would be the accurate, that'd be the correct argument to make. Maybe. Also, it's your turn to be objective. Again, to really, truly do this, I would have to watch the Long Night right now. And you know what I mean? I'd have to do a side-by-side comparison, not however many actual days it's been between the two. Let me offer this. Okay, go for it. When we get done at the end of the long night.

[36:42] All we want to do is hit play on the next episode. It has the same thing. And it's got Cartagia eating it. This one has Lovatova eating it. Oh, almost like both big, both big.

[36:54] You know, Jeff, here's the thing. If you want to put long night up at four, I'm willing to do that. This, we're a partnership here, man. Like, like if you, if you really, if you, if you feel that way about it, because I am so like literally my reasoning for put it up there is just well we've got into the fire that substitutes in for the top six that's my sole reasoning, they're both fantastic episodes they really are they really they're both phenomenal, okay between the darkness and light is number five that's fair i think it's a better place for it i don't hate that it is above atonement though i will i will, go to the mat on that one yeah and atonement was an incredible episode by the way it was it was so so very good, Brent, that does it for Between the Darkness. We are no longer between the darkness and the light. We're going one way or the other, and we will do that in an episode called Endgame.

[37:48] What do you remember about this episode from the first time we watched it? Here's what I remember sitting in the theater, and that moment when you just hear, on your left, the whole theater erupted in cheers. It was a big moment. How many things have had an episode or been named Endgame? 314. Right? What is this one about? I don't know. Sheridan and the crew. It's the final attack on Earth. It's the end. That was my prediction for what next week is. That's what the episode is. That's what I remember about the episode. And I remember it being so good and such a great ending to this whole thing. And I remember being very mad at you. Yeah, you were right. Yeah, I get it. I did. And you're going to see just how silly and wrong you were. I don't know, man. I was so – I was really, really – I had such a bad taste in my mouth in this one. And it was the direct result of compressing the storyline. It felt anticlimactic. The whole way the President Clark thing ended, I felt was stupid and disappointing. It was just – it just was not –, enough and what else could he have done right right i mean i get it but i i, while there's was on my first i'm just on my first watch while there was so much to love about this episode on balance it did not work for me.

[39:13] I hope and pray that you can walk into this episode next week, allowing it to be the episode for what it is right now, view it not viewing it through your first watch eyes but viewing it through these eyes that you have now bro i did that for tko i am capable of coming in unbiased and watching an episode well i was going to compare it to avalon but sure you want to go let's do that one yeah.

[39:38] Both ends of the spectrum i was like i'm going to look at this objectively i i will do that here as well it's part of why i was intentional in my language of the first time i watched it yeah this is what i thought yeah, also you could just shut up and just watch the episode man stop trying to you know just sit still to tell a stone story right right why are you talking about this on a podcast why, i don't understand if you do understand though and you're watching this or listening to it thank you thanks for being here with us, be here next week as well for end game, it's exciting is jeff gonna see it differently or is he gonna double down on his controversial opinion from i don't know two some odd years ago you'll only find out if you're here. The best way to be here is to make sure you're subscribed. If you're subscribed, you might as well leave a rating or review all that stuff. And while you're doing that, join the conversation, get in on it, comment. If there's on YouTube, other, other places, if that Spotify, good pods, if you can make comments, go get in there and do it. We'd love though, to have you as a member of our community overall. And you can do that by commenting and talking about it. You can also become a part of our inner community by checking out our Patreon page. There's links where there's links. Our council chambers are invited to our recordings. We have a discord with a vibrant community on it. It's pretty fantastic. I love it a lot and incredible people that we get to spend time with and, uh.

[40:57] Get to be a part of the creating that happens here so with that until next time hey in the game jeff yeah what uh what's going on.

[41:11] That was easier than i thought it'd be man, i mean we're not some some deep space franchise this station is about something.