The Face of the Enemy | For the Second Time

[0:44] The years 2026 the name of the podcast babylon 5 for the second time, welcome to babylon 5 for the second time my name is brent allen my name is jeff aiken hi brent hi jeff did uh you all know brent and i we used to be star trek podcasters that was our get out of town it was totally our thing yeah, wow we've done a podcast before this one yeah a couple for some of us like it was a It was a thing we did. The one we did together the first time was called Babylon 5 for the first time. It's when we watched Babylon 5 for the first time. Pretty on the head name for it, but I tell you what. Hey, fun fact about that show. Yeah? That name was only ever supposed to be a placeholder name. Right. We fully intended to come up with a much better name. And here we are now. Never did.

[1:39] We had a chance to even like do better with that because we things were incredible with that series so incredible that we're now watching this for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a show you to watch for the first time twice and what did we call that show yeah we called it Babylon 5, for the second time, The bastions of creativity here. And then we started another show where we watched Stargate and we called that one Stargate SG-1 for the first time. For the first time.

[2:08] And already regretting that because we're going to watch more than Stargate SG-1. And so. You know what will not happen though? What's that? Stargate SG-1 for the second time. It will. It just won't be captured in podcast or video form. Right. Going to do that on my. In fact, I've done something. You've already got it. Yeah.

[2:24] Fair enough. Fair enough. And you know what we can also do in both shows, no matter which time we're watching it? What's that? Seek out the messages that are contained within. That we can. The things that hold up a mirror to society, give us hope that things can be better in the future, or just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. You know what else we can't do? Fly? Take back a spoiler. Because once a spoiler is given, you can't unhear things. You can't unsee things. And for those of you out there who have never seen Babylon five for yourself for the first time, stop. This is your warning. This is your roadmap. This is yellow sign. Jeff and I are, we're saying abort, abort. Go join us for Babylon five for the first time where everything is completely unspoiled. Make sure you come back and join us here once you get through that. Trust us. It is far, far better of a way to watch this show. My warning is sincere. Ignore it at your own peril. This week, Brian, we are watching The Face of the Enemy for the second time. When we watched this series for the first time, we played a game where we predicted what each episode was going to be about based on the title alone. I predicted that we were going to get some more on the teepsicle plan. Garibaldi's programming was going to kick in. And one of my big things was that.

[3:47] The dad stuff that he brought up was just like kind of a threat. It wasn't going to actually happen. And he was going to find another way to get to Sheridan. What did you predict for this one? I said that Sheridan was going to put the mission at risk by going after his dad. And then he was going to get captured, thus putting the mission even more at risk, which is great drama, right? And Garibaldi would basically go full on Judas. That's what I said. Pretty close to it. Yep. I'd say, yeah, he's almost exceeded. Except I don't think he went after his dad. I think he just got captured because Garibaldi went Judas on him. Yeah. Feeding him some information. What do you say, Brent? Why don't we go back and we watch some of the highlights from our first time viewing of this thing. Have we seen this one before? Yeah, we've watched it for the first time once. What did we say back then? You know what? Let's find out. Hmm.

[4:43] Previously, on Babylon 5, for the first time, the face of the enemy. This tells us exactly what happened to Mr. Garibaldi. What was Sheridan thinking? About going after his dad? You know, going after his dad, but even earlier than that? Going on the Agamemnon. As soon as I saw the Agamemnon, and he's like, I'm going over there. I was like, nope. Yeah, don't do it, dude. Nope. Not a good idea. Danger, danger, danger, Will Robinson. Yeah. So Garibaldi goes through and he does what he needs to do. He slaps that thing on his hand. Now, he called it a train. I would have thought Sheridan would have passed out. No, it was pretty much his drugs. Yeah. He just got high real fast. Dude, I don't know who was standing in the booth and all of a sudden flipped on the strobe light while a fight was going on in the bar. Well, this makes you wonder how many times fights break out. They were like they literally have a process they're just like oh fight smoke machine and strobe right and band keep playing yep it almost felt too long but also like i never lost interest in the fight like it kept my attention right yeah it's really right as soon as they got his dad, yes of course sheridan's getting captured let's bring this back to garibaldi he goes back to uh to edgar's, and gets the full story wade is sitting there on the couch.

[6:12] And he says, I don't know the exact line, homo sapien versus homo superior. Isn't that the term that's used in X-Men to describe the mutants? Edgar has his whole big plan. From the minute he gets on that train, the minute Garibaldi gets on that train, he's sitting there and he's dead staring. And he's just like, go homies. And then he just stares. Bester comes and sits. He barely even blinks. He's just dead. Dead i even loved besters questioning of like what should i do with you now, like i'm gonna let you know what you did i feel like it was that's torturous for garibaldi but it also kind of says to garibaldi i actually don't see you like you're not a threat there's nothing of value to you anymore so go ahead just be you again i don't care but i think my hopes for an anti-hero bester are, are dead like think so he's just a villain, i finally finally starting to understand that dying a thousand that's holy cow you and i look so different we do isn't that wild it's so wild i can't get over it man.

[7:22] I feel like I look like my brother. Hey, so it turns out I was wrong about my prediction. Sheridan is going after his dad, and that's how he winds up getting captured. So spot on me. Well done. You had a question about the Agamemnon. Yep. I have an answer. Would you like it now or would you like it later? Let's get it now. Okay, cool.

[7:43] And this is more of just a bit like a neat thing, okay? Because Sheridan does get back on board the Agamemnon, and that's what eventually leads to his capture, right? JMS says this. There's a bit of irony in the fact that the stage for Sheridan's capture is set when he steps foot aboard the Agamemnon, his old ship.

[7:59] In history, Agamemnon was the supreme commander of the Greek forces at the Battle of Troy. Agamemnon survived that war, but he was betrayed and murdered by his wife after returning home because he blindly and arrogantly stepped into a trap, just as Sheridan also does. Interesting. So let's look for the blind arrogance that Sheridan steps into this trap as he steps on board the Agamemnon in this episode. Definitely. We're going to do that by watching the episode right here, right now with all of you. We're going to pull it up. We're going to watch the episode. Brent and I will comment on it, pull out the messages there in real time, all the good stuff. If you're going to watch this on YouTube, you're going to view the edited version, like the reaction video. The full and the unedited version is available on our Patreon page. In fact, it is made available about a week before it releases on YouTube, but it's over at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you guys are listening to this on an audio podcasting app, no worries. You're going to catch all of that goodness. We're going to have all those conversations and we'll have all the stuff on the backside. So you guys will not be left out and you can listen to this on your pod catcher of choice. Jeff, let's press play and watch the face of the enemy. Accessing file.

[9:16] Commander's personal log So many personal logs And her colonies continue.

[9:23] Franklin and Lita should be on Mars by now, along with their cargo. Along with their cargo. They have fully dehumanized them.

[9:34] Hey, did you know this was done on EGA computers? How bad? So that shimmering wall right there that was right over his shoulder. Do you know what that was? Uh-uh. Somebody asked. It was the ship's automatic repair systems. Okay. At work. Very cool. That's what that was. I say again you are ordered to stand down and surrender your vessels we have no desire to destroy your ships but if you continue to fight we'll have no choice as soon as our forces surrender our crews are taken out executed and then replaced by Mambari crews, Is that what you've been told? It is. And I believe. So what do you do? Here's what I was told. Here's what I was briefed on. Here's if they've been lying to me this whole time and I've taken all of these actions based on their lies. Oof. Yeah. What else have I done? Am I going to get in trouble for that? If you're lying to me and I stand down and all of a sudden this happens to us. Oof. Have you ever heard of the idea of having personal bank accounts with people? Yeah. You know, this is this is an interesting, an interesting piece. You know, like we all have personal bank accounts. You make deposits, you make withdrawals. Right. It based on how you interact with the relationship. Right. And here's Mackie standing up being like, hey, don't worry about any of this. You and I have a personal thing. You know me. Listen to what I'm saying here. This is a personal thing from us, not in the chain of command, whatever.

[10:58] You know, this is this. We have a relationship. Also him sitting there, first of all, it's totally how dudes just respond, but can you imagine coming across your teacher who bust your balls like that? Right. Like if they believe that, then you're even dumber than you were when you were my student.

[11:16] What? Also, I don't care how old you are. Would you ever call your teacher by their first name or whatever? Yeah. You would. I did it. I did it while I was in school. I was that guy. Could not do that. It is. It is. my professors are still to this day either doctor so-and-so, doctor so-and-so, or professor so-and-so, professor so-and-so, and they will never be anything else other than that to me I can't do it. Good southern boy I'm not that They've given the surrender order ceasefire, I repeat, ceasefire Just a minute, there's a jump point opening.

[11:53] The Agamemnon. I love the scene. The cinematography there, bringing it up. Stand by. I'm coming aboard. Is that a good idea? No, no, it's not. Including her captain. I guessed for a couple episodes that the Agamemnon was going to turn on him. In three years, he hasn't had a crew rotation at all. Right? Like. They haven't been under Clark that whole time and under all the influences. Good to see you, too. You got your fat. yeah it's like really good to see you really good to see you we were able to slip through, we're receiving a transmission from mr garibaldi he needs to speak with you he says it's important you know it is an incredible thing, that garibaldi a man who is no longer in the inner circle a man who is no longer on staff a man who has gone rogue a man who has spoiled his relationship with captain sheridan a man who has left the station still has the ability to, get access to the captain and have his ear there's no way garibaldi should be able to have this conversation with sheridan right now that should have been blocked three secretaries ago, they've got your dad john captain i don't think you should if it were your father what would you do.

[13:01] If it was your father what would you do i don't know am i the supreme commander of the military rebel i mean it john i don't like the way this, is my father a former diplomat that understands how stuff goes who would counsel john to hey you're doing the right thing keep doing the right thing and make it personal but still, i will listen to what garibaldi has to say and if there's any way we can make this work let me send one of any of the other hundreds of rangers that are here i want you to take my place during my absence, take white rangers that are higher trained than he is and so the entire mission is now at risk because he will regret something.

[13:39] Delenn, Lanier, I'm glad to see you. I was just about to leave. It's good to be back, Commander. Is there a problem? I'm sorry. I'm afraid so. Hold on. How long has Delenn been gone? Months. Surely Ivanova knows about the Civil War. Yeah. Ivanova's been in the middle of battles now for... Weeks. Weeks, months, herself. And the best she got is, oh, hey, Delenn, hey, Lanier, good to see you. Like, that's it? This is literally your boss's girlfriend. The girl who is responsible. I mean, like she is just as responsible for all this really is. You guys are as well. Also, she's the one who's responsible for all the other stuff too, but whatever the best you got is, ah, it's good to see you again. Like, Oh, Hey, what's up? How was your trip? You know, I would give this way more flack if it was anybody other than Ivanova. Like I kind of believe this response out of her. Hey, since you just happened to run into you, Do you think you could take care of this entire space station? I didn't have a plan for that.

[14:43] One of the things this podcast is all about is analyzing the music in the series that we watch, right? Okay. And we've had some really, really not great music that we've had to talk about. This right now is super calm, right? I guess it's some chill stuff. What is interesting about it is it's in three, not in four. Most music, popular music is in four or six. This is in three and played very smoothly. so it feels like a natural four. Sure it is. Yeah. How dare they? No, no, it's great. Oh. Two, three. Oh, Michael. One, two, three. I think we're not going to make it here.

[15:29] It's a drink. The last time we saw this was when Kosh got it put on his imaginary hand. Yeah. JMS talks a lot about this scene right here. Here, we'll turn this down. Um he talks a lot about the scene uh about the time when he personally got jumped and he talks about how time slows down, and he's like also people don't people think that it's like a quick bop bop bop bop bop and then it's done he's like when i gotta jump it lasted for a solid 10 minutes like but time really seems to slow down things move slower when you're in the middle of that um.

[16:10] You know, so that's all a part of what's going on. Wow. So, you know, this is really, I mean, you got to wonder how much of this was JMS writing in the script versus him just being down on the floor. Yeah. Being like, hey, I think Mike Veger is the director for this one. You're like, do this scene this way. Yeah. Sitting there in the editing bay, there's a lot of editing in this one. Oh, sure. Oh, well, yeah, that would be JMS would certainly be there for the edits and stuff those. So those shots right there, like those still shots are actual like still photos that are captured by the guy who's on set taking their promotional photos. Oh, really? Yeah, like they worked those in to it's not just grabs from the, from the video that they paused. This is such a brilliant fight scene, and I think.

[17:05] Sci-fi in general in the 90s not known for its good fight scenes and one of the things the tools you can use to, get around that is lighting and making sure that you never actually see contact right because it looks so dumb when they're like this far out and whatever and it's hard, the way that they use the strobe the different angles this like it was just it was brilliant and Well done, well shot. Yeah, and you felt it, right? I think to his point, because he wrote, directed, edited this in a way from personal experience, I felt like I was getting my ass beat. It was really well done. We interrupt our regular programming for this important announcement.

[17:51] The leader of the Renegade fleet that has been attempting to destabilize Earth for months has finally been located and detained. Force was captured earlier today by forces loyal to President Clark and is now being held in a secure facility. Not Earth forces. Forces loyal to President Clark. I have a real problem with the idea of people being loyal to a person in terms of politics. We are loyal to our country. We are loyal to, we even say, our constitution. We are loyal to our countrymen. People that are loyal to a party or to said politician. Not good and when i see politicians not just one multiple, talk about oh i can't believe they didn't do that what a disloyal person they are especially after all the stuff i did for them that should give everyone pause enough to be like and you're out 100, that's mafia type stuff.

[18:53] I felt a disturbance in the force. The only thing that I could believe about that, if it's not some sort of a psychic connection, is if they were twins. I believe twins somehow have some sort of magic, whatever. But outside of that, unless you can explain that to me in any way, shape, or form, just because you love somebody that doesn't reach out across the universe and warn you that they're in trouble. Where was Sheridan's reaction when she was in the Starfire wheel getting burned? No, maybe. You said you'd tell me the rest of it when I proved my loyalty. When Sheridan was in custody. Well, I held up my end of the bargain. Now I want the truth. You can't handle the truth. How did they not do that on the set all day long?

[19:37] We have homo superior versus homo sapien. Homo superior wins every time. I just can't not hear the X-Men stuff when I hear that. I agree. And our council chambers have been talking about how like, Wade kind of looks like Magneto also. So it tracks, but he couldn't come with anything else. It's a cool phrase. It's look. And here's the thing. I actually, I'm, I'm okay with it. JMS is a comic book writer. He's worked for Marvel. He's, gonna pull in a word like that and it's it's like a little wink maybe it's a nod to his other comic book folk cool also it's super simple to understand as soon as you hear it you know exactly what he's talking about so you don't have to explain it right so, uh by the way uh if you've never read about the neanderthal homo sapien battle at carthage you should look that up and read about it, also uh garibaldi being like i hate telepaths i hate everything about telepaths but this is a bridge too far it seems like but i won't stand by and let telepaths turn into a ruling class i think.

[20:40] That i yeah he hates them edgar's fears them yeah, that's the difference there you can hate i guess if that's how you're so inclined, but i think so much evil springs from fear and not hate, Also hate, but very much from fear. Well, he also, this is the thing we often say. You take away people's individual humanity, lump them together in a group, and then all of a sudden it does nothing but make it easier to hate. I'm not going to let telepaths become a ruling class. But yet they're sitting here talking about, hey, this is the way evolution goes. Right. If it's our time, it's our time, man. We're going to fight it. We're going to make it not our time, but it is our time. But the whole thing about evolution is that it's undefeated. Three weeks after that, according to our projections of the infection rate, the telepath prob... I have a bad problem incredible writing incredible acting right there I mean that was perfect.

[21:48] What were you doing there Lisa aren't you supposed to be making dinner or something, well and in the kitchen barefoot probably not pregnant well maybe pregnant I guess he could still go that's the thing, yep as Becky says in the council chambers chat one might call it a final solution.

[22:11] What was that it was a homing device implanted by whom so i'm not 100 i don't remember for sure but i think it was was it's implanted by bester and he knew to take it out then and look at it and so i don't know i don't know because his mission had been fulfilled, that's what just happened was garibaldi's mission had just been fulfilled come extract me all of that stuff was done now yank this tooth out of your face and, push this button or do something, and come get me does he okay now here's the question does he actually realize what he's doing here is he cognizant of what he's doing if i remember right we find out later that he was aware of everything, okay but like to use the stargate example the host of a gould is aware of everything that's going on but they are helpless to do anything about i think it's the same for garibaldi in which case to go back to our conversation from last week, then no, if that, if he is unable to do anything about it, then he is not responsible for that. That's more clear when there's a gold in there, a different being, right? Like they're the one that's guilty because that's more than just, we're going to take what's inside and just turn it up. That's no, no. We're actually controlling you with actual programming and directives that you can't alter or fight against.

[23:31] I felt that something was going on for a while, but I had no idea. Yeah, he's not. Michael? He's not even there. Michael, are you listening to me? So it's best for standing out there all that time waiting on her to leave. Exactly. Is he looking at her being like.

[23:54] Thank you. Not that you had much choice. He just said it. You didn't have choice. Somebody just come around and replace you. They knew there were three people who could replace him. Delenn, Ivanova, and you. So the Shadows needed the Psycor to turn him. That's what it sounds like. The Shadows could not do that on their own. Because I remember that being the question. Why did they hand him over to Psycor in the first place? Like, why, what was that whole, why would they just do it themselves? Right. You don't want us to do a full reprogram on him? By nature, Mr. Garibaldi is rebellious, stubborn, and suspicious. He has an innate distrust of authority figures. Jeff, that guy right there? Yep. Harlan Ellison. That was a really? Harlan Ellison. Good for him. And he's not being an idiot. Like a computer. He just said it. Yep. Until in the end, Garibaldi was gone. You would only work for us so if we rewind that and we think of what happened last week that was not Garibaldi Garibaldi was gone that was the Psycor in which case Garibaldi is absolved, still Sheridan cannot bring him back into the inner circle I've just sent the all clear signal telepathically after I'm gone you'll be able to move again, you'll remember it all you'll be yourself again.

[25:20] You can try to tell the others what happened but under the circumstances i doubt very much anyone will believe you i don't know man people don't seem to like you very much.

[25:34] It's my track.

[25:54] So a lot of people are talking about his parting salute to Garibaldi, where he says, be seeing you as a reference to the 60s TV show. You and I have heard again and again and again about being the prisoner. Okay. Bester also said it in mind war. And the lurker's guide very clearly points this out that this is a reference. I've even seen some people in our council chambers over here talking about the reference. However, JMS directly says, very specifically, this is not a reference. This is not an homage to the prisoner. However, he could have been lying. I will say this, it has to be an homage. No one has ever said, be seeing you outside of the prisoner. It's the only place it's ever been sated before. The captain once told me the person is expendable. The job is not.

[26:50] We keep going. Ivanova doing what a leader should do. Ivanova doing exactly what she is the number one is supposed to do. He's taken out. I'm picking up the flag and carrying it. Yep. Let's go. Yeah. When they're like, resistance is all going to fall apart now that we have Sheridan. You have underestimated Susan Ivanova. And I'm kind of mad that we don't get that story because that's the one I want. We should do a podcast show where we talk about, we play it forward. Yeah. Here's the thing. Sheridan would have gone. What would have happened had Ivanova now stayed? It's her story. You know, I mean, it's been her development from lieutenant commander to commander and first off, like developing her leadership skills and growing. Her story, we get robbed of because of all the shenanigans with stuff. What she got to go off and do is what I would love to have more insight into.

[27:45] Sheridan continues to be well fed and well treated. Now that he has been freed of alien influences, he has reportedly indicated feelings of remorse and regret for his actions against his own home world. In other news, William Edgars was found dead this morning along with at least one of his staff. Preliminary reports from investigators on the scene indicate that the resistance may have been responsible for the attack as they continue their assault against business and political targets. Nothing is known yet concerning the whereabouts of his wife, Lisa Edgars. ...that Captain Sheridan may have been turned in by his own former head of security, Chief Warrant Officer Michael Garibaldi. If this is true, we at ISN want to convey our personal thanks and gratitude to a true hero of the people. The people's champ. That's a master stroke of ending the episode at that point right there. Yep.

[28:45] Who thinks a state-run media department would ever be a good idea? To give the official line from the government. Raise your hand if you think that a state-run media will ever. Now, you could talk about the fake news all you want. You could talk about how all news is biased and all that. Listen, folks, I got some news for you. There is no such thing as unbiased news sources out there. There are so many state-run media shops across the world. It's one of the qualifying things from the for eurovision is there has to be like public broadcasting that uh.

[29:24] You know helps choose the winner or whatever but somehow i'm not i'm never i was going to get very political about eurovision for a second i'm not going to go there, i'll just say there are some state-run media things that are still for some reason weirdly able to still compete does the name david w foster mean anything to you it should from this point forward it does David W. Foster is, in my opinion, the MVP of this episode. He is the editor. And everything from the fight scene on, the Bester doing his thing and the way that was cut together between the stuff, the way the episode just ended, this has to be some of his greatest work. So well done. Hey, listen. You and I, we often talk about the graphics. We talk about the writing. We talk about the DP. We talk about all that. editor, Chris Franco. We talk about him all the time. The production staff that JMS was able to put together for this show on the shoestring budget he had is just top of the game. I mean, the actors he got on it, everything. And I'm not saying he was perfect on it. There's certainly been some missteps and we have noted them all. What show doesn't have a few? But I mean, it's phenomenal what he was able to put together. Well, it's like Edgar's Ephraim Zimbalist Jr.

[30:44] I'm declaring myself a Zimbalist right here. That dude was incredible in his role. Absolutely amazing. That moment where he's like, and this will help the telepath pro... Problem just you figure that that is once again there are so many things that i want to know was that written into the script or was that an acting choice made on behalf of the actor or directing, instruction right like it i don't think it necessarily matters at the end of the day that's the creative process is it all comes together right it's just phenomenal uh phenomenal stuff, man. I like to invite people. Uh, Andy in the chat says to join our, uh, group of symbolism, followers, symbolists. I'll let you all have that one. Uh, got a couple of notes from JMS coming out of this episode. If you want those, uh, somebody asked a question. Did Edgar's really believe the earth gov propaganda that Sheridan was operating under the malignant influence of aliens? Okay. JMS in his mastery with words has this astute answer. Okay.

[31:48] Nope. There you go. He also talks about the appearance of the Agamemnon during this attack. It actually contradicts something that happened during the attack scene in moments of transition where the Agamemnon is actually seen attacking civilian targets. I believe that was corrected. However, JMS notes in response to comments on that episode, the use of the Agamemnon was a screw up on the part of the production team. Oopsie. It was the model they had, essentially. And I think it has since been corrected. I think when we watched it, it had a different name on it. Oh, did it? Or it wasn't clear. Yeah, it got changed to the Pollux. Fair enough. But when it first aired, people were probably like, what the fuck? Well, if they picked up on it, if they caught it. I don't know if you've met the people who enjoyed Babylon 5 when it first aired, Brent, but they picked up on it.

[32:42] I am pretty sure. Oh, Ben's Ben says that they actually fixed it for repeat broadcasts back in the day. So that was even before the remaster. Okay, so Jeff did you have any message it we talked a lot about it stuff during the episode But did you have anything else you wanted to dive into before we move on? Not really. No, I think we covered it during the watch I got one. Okay, nothing good ever came from somebody saying For the greater good, right? I'm gonna leave that one there, Listen, this is for the greater good. We're going to do this evil. Get out. For the greater, no. Run away. With that, Brent, you are ranking this one, our definitively correct, objectively placed and ranked episodes here in the fourth season of Babylon 5, all of yours, this week, to place the face of the enemy. I'm going to say, I'm going to start with last week's episode and say number 11, we have the exercise of vital powers. 10 we have falling toward apotheosis in nine rumors bargains and lies moments of transition in the number eight spot number seven the summoning my even close in the range brent to where you're going to put face of the enemy yeah i think so um.

[33:54] Another good episode some might even say say a great episode we get the answer to whatever happened to mr garibaldi right right Right. Sheridan gets captured. Ivanova takes over so much stuff. But you know what this episode was missing? It was missing a beginning and it was missing an end. All it was was middle. It's a good 45 minutes. I enjoyed every second of it. There is a thing about ranking these episodes where you have to take it on its own as a 45-minute chunk and go, where would I place this 45-minute chunk? And I'm looking at the list here. And, okay, let me start with the exercise of vital powers. Okay. Was this better or worse than last week's episode? I don't know. But I think it's right there. Better or worse than falling towards apotheosis? I think it's actually better than falling towards apotheosis. I think last week might have should have gone above that one. Rumors, bargains, and lies. Good, good, good episode moments of transition also really good. And then, man, we're just, it's so hard to rank in this area. We're just not done yet. We're just not done. So I'm going to keep this one with its brother or sister episode, but I do think, I do think I, because I like, I like.

[35:15] Uh, uh, conclusions and we did get some conclusions in this episode. I do tend to like those. So I'm going to place this one above the exercise of vital powers. Could it move? Yeah, probably could. Do I think it could be better than falling towards apotheosis? You know, Jeff, I'm trying to remind me what happened in that particular. I know that was in that group of six, but remind me exactly what happened in that episode. That's when we get, it's when Kosh two gets his. Yeah, that was an episode where I said, I said, not a lot happened, but also a lot happened. It's kind of a lot of this particular episode. I think I like this episode better than that one. Yeah. I'm going to shift this up to our new number 10. Wow. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to shift this up. Is it better than rumors, bargains, and lies? Man, I really liked that episode. It was really good. It was a good episode. So yeah, I'm going to leave it here at number 10. Codify that. And I said that by saying I didn't like falling towards apotheosis. That's a lie. I love that. I love that whole six episode, whatever. But you understand what I mean. Well, Brad, that does it for the face of the enemy. And in the theme of not necessarily having beginnings or endings next week, we're watching an episode called intersections in real time.

[36:31] Uh, do you remember what you thought about this episode? I remember everything about this episode. You know, we've been saying for weeks, like, ah, I don't really remember what happened. No, no, that's not this episode. I remember everything. This is a stellar episode, stellar, stellar episode. We often talk in Star Trek world that Star Trek's chain of command part two, is a tour de force acting between David Werner and, and Patrick Stewart.

[36:56] And it is, it absolutely is. I mean, what Patrick Stewart did for research for that role, right? Patrick Stewart's actually hanging up there naked, like in the studio, actually naked because it made the realism. I mean, just all of that kind of stuff. But I'm going to tell you something, Jeff, don't you ever let this get out because I will be hung by Trekkies everywhere. This one's better. This is just a mind bleep of an episode and I'm here for it. I'm here for it. How about you? What do you remember? It doesn't get any better than this episode. Yeah. Of the, of the interrogation episodes across all television, this is the best and not like, Oh, it's so fun. It's the most well done, well acted, well written, well directed, well lit every single aspect of this episode. But it does all the tropes that they all do. There does that. We're going to starve them. and then we're going to, uh, we're going to eat right in front of them and we're going to offer them something. We're going to become their friend. We're going to have them say something that isn't true just to get them saying something that isn't true. They're all full light, right? Like it has all of the tropes that are in it. They're either tropes or they are how torture and interrogation happens. Sure. It's an interrogation trope.

[38:13] Yeah. What happens? But the way this episode handles and when it brings in that drawsy and then you see the drawsy at the end who never actually like, I mean, oh, my gosh, just something else. It's the biggest like, oh, oh, we're going to boom. And then done. Like the way you're just, I mean, you're like, this will never end. Right. Moment.

[38:32] This is what when we start talking about, like, the best episodes of this of the series and we go, was this a top three? Is this a whatever? The problem is at that point. You start having to recategorize your episodes. Yeah. Like which one is the best action episode of the whole series? Which one is the best conclusion of the whole series? Which one is the best that like, which one is the best acted written? Like just this one's going to be it. Let's take three other episodes, right? Severed dreams, uh, into the fire, sleeping in light intersections in real time. Which one is the best episode? By what, and that's where you have to go, by what category, by what criteria are we talking about best? Right. The one that made me feel the most, the one that made me cry, the one that I'm most invested in, well, it's got to be Sleeping in Light. The one that pulls everything together and puts a nice little bow on it and finally brings conclusion to a story and an arc that we have been invested in, that's not Sleeping in Light. That's Into the Fire. Mm-hmm. You know, sleeping in light brought conclusion, but it was different kind of, you know what I mean?

[39:42] When you talk about just acting, writing, and by a guest actor that, frankly, I don't know that I've ever heard of before or after this episode. I couldn't tell you his name right now, but him right up next to Bruce Boxleitner holding his own, standing toe to toe. Holy smokes, dude. Holy smokes. We joked a couple weeks ago, oh, it's top three episode, top three episode. This is the best episode. Along with the other best episodes. Yeah, absolutely. So make sure you're subscribed to us so you can watch this best episode of Babylon 5 with us right here next week. Rate us, review us, comment, especially, gosh, there's so much to talk about in these episodes. We bring up messages and our observations, and there is so much that we leave on the table. Some of it we talked about the first time around, and some of it we just don't want to be here for six hours talking about a 45-minute episode. Share that in the comments. You can reach out to us in a number of ways. We'd love to hear your thoughts on it as well. We'd also really love it. Appreciate it. If, as we're heading into the best episode of Babylon five, along with all the other best episodes, you shared this show with somebody who can join us on this, uh, this incredible, incredible ride. So until next time, I'm Jeff. Hey, Jeff. Yeah. What's going on? I, uh, I just wanted to say that it's really good to see you. Okay. Yeah. It's, uh, it's good. It's good to see you too. I mean, it's been months since I last saw you. Just saying hi.

[41:09] Hi. So now that you're here, will you take charge of absolutely everything? What? I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.