Rising Star | For the Second Time

[0:49] For the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now, we're watching this incredible series for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a show that you get to watch for the first time, twice. That's right, but you know what we're doing for the first time again? What's that? Looking for messages that are contained within it because that's what we do here at The Bad Nerds. We're looking for things that hold up a mirror to society, things that give us hope that things will be better in the future, or things that just show us how to be better human beings to one another. Those are fantastic messages, by the way. I think they are, right? If you're going to pull those out. And those are the things that we really need to focus on. Now, that being said, Jeff and I have seen this show for the first time for ourselves all the way through. We have an entire podcast where we went through it completely unspoiled. If this is your first time through the series yourself Jeff and I would have a favor to ask of you stop listening to this episode right now go back to those ones I was just talking about the unspoiled ones because because of this being our second time this one is now going to be filled with spoilers where we are at liberty to talk about anything from any point in the timeline anywhere whether it's canon not canon head canon.

[2:11] In-universe, out-of-universe, anything from conventions, behind-the-scenes, all of that is fair game for Jeff and I to talk about. So, again, if you have not been through this series, we beg you, it is much better to do it on the unspoiled route. And then once you've gotten through it, catch back up with us here, because as Jeff said, this is the one show you can watch for the first time twice. So, if you're still here and you're listening, pass the spoiler warning. Bye. Why are you still here?

[2:41] Brad, this week we're watching Rising Star. When we watched this for the first time, we played a game where we would predict what each episode was going to be about based on the title alone. I predicted that Sheridan was going to use the Board of Inquiry as a platform to unite all of the worlds under one singular banner. I've been talking about this idea. You were so close on that. I know, right? You were so close. It happened. It just wasn't Sheridan that did it. It wasn't Sheridan. And it wasn't. I thought they were going to really double down on the show's title. And I've been talking about this way back at the time of the Babylon Treaty and everything. It was just going to be called Babylon. Yeah. And still, we got AISA. But yeah, that's what I predicted it was going to be about. What did you predict it was going to be about? Well, I said this was going to be the aftermath of the war. They told us that it's going to be the Board of Inquiry and all that sort of stuff. But I kind of got a little specific. I said Sheridan would basically be offered a role on Earth, perhaps president. That's going to be a new role that's open. And he would have to decide between returning to Babylon five or staying on earth. And ultimately he would return to Babylon five because we have, you know, we saw him on the DVD cover for the season five. So, yeah, he'd have to go back. Right.

[3:54] Also, we'd have to clean up the whole Marcus of Anima stuff. There is that there is that. Well, what do you say, Brent? We go back and actually see what we talked about the first time. You know, this is one of my favorite parts of our show that we do. I can't wait for this and I dread it at the same time let's watch it.

[4:13] Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time. Rising Star. It was great. This was such a good episode. Delenn, her delivery, like when she was talking, she's at that podium and talking. She had an air of superiority. When those white stars flew over Earthdome, you know what that looked like to me? Remember the shot of Londo looking up at the shadow ships flying over the world? That whole scene, I think a lot of it was the music on it, too. It was ominous. It wasn't victorious or anything, and it just really pulled me out. Sheridan played Mr. Long Con on the president, on his Earth Force people. I did not see Sheridan being hit on this. I'm a huge fan of this president. The way she was portrayed and acted was, yeah, total boss. You did the right thing the wrong way. And then she's like, actually, no, he just did it the inconvenient way. But she also acknowledged to him that they wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him. So thank you. Also, you got to go. We can't govern with your ghost being here. So Bester comes in. Does this conclusion leave you in a satisfying spot? No, not at all. The last thing they left on was Sheridan being like.

[5:32] Garibaldi's going to kick your butt. Really? that's what you have in this moment in this scene am i okay with where they left bester no that whole scene just left me with a no bester could be this show's gold dukat.

[5:46] Can we talk about avonava for a minute i don't want to but yeah okay uh her crying scene i think might have been claudia's best acting moment of the whole series it was amazing they killed avonava.

[6:01] Then they sent Marcus to take her place and brought Ivanova back to send her off again. What the hell is going on, Jeff? I know, it's terrible. I said earlier this episode made me mad, it made me laugh, and it made me cry. This was a big deal to me. The moment Sheridan was reunited with his dad, it was such a touching moment. He was such a great...

[6:38] Propedient, non-questioning acceptance of the lead. Hey. Right. Heard you're joining the family. Welcome. And then Jakar, I'm still going to be so mad if we don't get them using that eyeball for something. He left his eyeball on the table.

[6:59] Yeah, he did. I'm pretty sure Dylan makes those shows. He does such a great job with it. Right. I'm pretty sure when I said that in the previous episode that I said something to the effect of he's going to leave his eyeball there on like their wedding night or something like that. I think I said that. I think, yeah, you've been kind of building to that one for a while. It brings up a question for me. I'll bring it up during the episode itself. But it makes me wonder what the original plan was for that. Because it couldn't have been voyeurism. That's me putting it nicely. What do you say, Brent? We dive into this one for the second time. Let's do it. What's about to happen is we're going to bring the episode up and we're going to watch it right here, right now with you. We're going to talk about the things that we see, react to it, pull out the messages, dive into them a little bit as well. And you'll be a part of all those conversations. If you're watching this on YouTube, you're going to see an edited version of this, kind of the reaction style video.

[7:57] If you want to see the full and unedited version of it, that's available on our Patreon page at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening to this on the audio podcasting app, you're going to hear that audio of the YouTube video. And then after that, you'll get all the stuff that we talk about. Jeff, let's watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file. We can confirm now that President Clark took his own life at 2.53 a.m. EST. The body has been left in place for examination and documentation by the we talked about this the first time around but it has to be called out again shot himself with a ppg.

[8:32] Where's the blood coming from because it would have cauterized the wound, and we've established that on multiple episodes prior to this pretty much and like it's like gunshot blood coming out there on the sheet like they found him quite a while after he did the deed maybe maybe it is president clark after all, his PPG like was underpowered or something and it didn't cauterize like it did damage but it didn't wind up cauterizing the yeah like half a cap it was like yeah it was like it was like a faulty PPG or something or he died and then that senator lady last week came in and she's like, she's like oh no look what he did to himself, I actually like I was just thinking like he had a pin on his desk and so after he shot himself he fell forward and just yeah.

[9:19] That many of you want revenge against those who cause such great pain and suffering. We ask that you listen to the better angels of your nature. So her line right there where she talks about the better angels of our nature. That is actually a line from the last line of Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural address. Okay. In which he urged the United States not to lapse into civil war. Um and so this would have been uh pre-civil war so it was brewing he was he was, uh trying to do that so she's basically saying the same thing we're not we're not going to latch back into civil war here like that's that's not how we're going to do i love that he referenced that you know because we call this the earth civil war but 100, coming out of this it's not like oh clark's.

[10:12] I just changed my mind and my ideology and I'm just going to get into line now. Like people believe what they believe and they're not necessarily going to stop.

[10:20] And you know, there's also just the bit of, you almost create a little power vacuum too. Like, so who's the person that takes up his flag? Who's even more of a zealot. Yeah. And do they have the personality and the ability to rally the same people that, that Clark did? And have you just created a martyr out of him as well? Well, now you have a unifying event and moment. Or have you killed? Have you have you effectively killed a movement and sanity can return? This lady's name is I'm going to probably mispronounce her name. I'm going to do my best, though. Bita Pozniak. OK, she is actually born in Poland, not Russia.

[11:02] And the accent that she is speaking with is her actual voice. Oh, wow. Her actual accent. That is not an accent that or that is not an acting choice or anything like that. That is how she speaks. I tell you what, I could especially listen to her talk forever. Like I could just. Yeah, that sounds great. You know, OK, let I hate doing this before we get to the cold open or to the opening credits. But she just described like, OK, of all the people that followed this, like there are different groups of people and all of those have to be taken into account. And if there's going to be a regime change, do you take out all of those people? Do you just take out the one like like who who are we holding holding responsible here? You know, who of those people were actually doing things against their will, but they felt forced to do that.

[11:53] Right. Ben, in the council chambers, as he often does, came through for us and actually has the Abraham Lincoln quote. Yeah. I think it's relevant not only to what we were watching, but to just I think it's a timeless, timeless quote that applies so many times. Lincoln says, we are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it, it must not break our bonds of affection, which will yet swell the course of the union when again touched. As surely they will be by the better angels of our of our nature but i just love it so much we're not enemies we are friends we or we were, or we can be it said though passion may have strained it it must not break our bonds of affection that's an interesting idea, to hold bonds of affection for your fellow country you know like that's who abraham lincoln's speaking to he's speaking to his countrymen who are, are on the brink of civil war and he speaks of bonds of affection mm-hmm, I don't I don't know that I could say that I share much affection for my fellow countrymen.

[13:01] And perhaps I should, I think it's like, I'm not, and you know what I mean when I say that, like, I'm not saying I hate them or anything like that. I'm just, I don't know that I would say I'm affectionate towards people just because they're in this country. Maybe I should be, I don't know. Well, we could really do a deep dive into like what, when he says affection, what is he meaning? Right. And I would say love. And when I say love, I mean like filios or filioque way, the brotherly kind of love that we would have. I think there's that piece, But I also think there's in the United States, there's a thing that we don't have that so many other nations and cultures have, and that's the idea of my people. And so I think when you have that or when you have a really long cultural history that goes back a long time.

[13:50] There was a time that you had to be tribal in nature, you know, and really like have your insular communities that were just you. And if you weren't a member of my community, you were the enemy because we just didn't have the means to share and bring everyone in. Whereas in the United States, that's not been the case for us. So I think that idea of having affection, love, brotherly love, whatever it is for us, exists to a level. But I think that it's just more part of the DNA of so many other cultures. We're just such a, in the United States, we are such a young infant culture. But I do I do love his next line here. The bonds of affection, which will yet swell the chorus of the union. They're still going to come back. They're going to come back and they're going to come up when when they get their touch to surely they will be by the better angels, angels of our nature.

[14:44] What if, Jeff, what if we were to intentionally have affection for those around us? I won't even just say our fellow countrymen. Let's just talk about the human beings that are around the human beings in our circle. I have affection for these people. Or I don't know, maybe hope for a better future. Things seem broken. Things seem lost right now. How could this ever come back? Well, sure. Hopefully the better angels of our nature will stoke those things which actually draw us together. We've talked about this on the show and you and I just as people talking, but the world that we live in today is very much the result of extremists. We have people on extreme ends of every imaginable part of whatever spectrum there is.

[15:30] And that's, that's far away. That's whatever. They've moved to the extremes, in part because of a lack of affection. Interesting. A feeling of being not heard, being discarded, not taken seriously. Uh, I would say in some cases, even, um, a true lack of affection, like mommy and daddy just didn't hug them enough. You know, and I say that kind of like, Oh, but, but for real, that's a thing. And that pushes people to these extremes. And I've often said, like, God, the best way to change, change this is just like to make it super simple. Just give that person a hug. Right. There's there's the video out there. There's a person attempting to shoot people and do a school shooting. I don't know how you say that, but the gym teacher like busted up to the I was a gym teacher, busted up to the kid and just gave them a hug and held on and didn't like squeeze, but like held the hug and the kid dropped a gun and just crumbled in tears. That's all he needed was for someone to reach out to him and connect. We are a communal species. We are meant to connect and be a part of a greater whole. And we live in a world in a time and a society that tells us that I am what matters. It's me focused. It's me, not we to use a.

[16:55] You know, platitude about it but when we are connected people don't become as extreme because they know they're a part of something bigger message before we even get the opening credit right so good this is gonna be a long episode.

[17:10] The machine had completely drained his life energy and transferred to commander ivanova she's stable everybody's saying ivanova why yeah, i'm mad i wonder if anybody sent film emails right john pretty chuckle nugget come on right He was always pulling crap like that. You know, I never knew what to do with him. He was the most undisciplined, most annoying. And then I heard this voice coming from far away saying, I love you.

[17:38] And I thought, is this God? Is this God? I mean, he really did have an English accent, just like in all those old movies. And there he was next to me, and we were hooked into that damn machine, and I tried to pull it apart, Stephen. I swear to God, I tried. I couldn't even move. I couldn't move. Look, there was nothing that you could do, all right? You know, this is one of those things that if I hadn't read JMS's autobiography and am kind of familiar with his life story and the great loves of JMS's life, you would think this is him writing about himself. You're right i i don't get that i don't get any of this feeling from him at all when it comes to his his uh romantic relationships that he's had over the course of his life like it's just, this is just a man writing a character being phenomenal it is with incredible depth that someone who hasn't experienced this shouldn't have it's amazing the idea of shoulda coulda woulda is something that is horrible to carry with you forever. It's not something... I'll be real honest, Jeff. I don't live like that. That's not part of my makeup. And I don't understand... And I'm saying this.

[18:56] I can't relate to people that do. Because I don't... It's just not a part of my makeup. And I know lots of people who do. And it just blows my mind. And I'm not casting judgment on that. I'm just me. He you're made up different. That's all. That's yeah. That's all I'm trying to say. That's all I'm trying to say. But also like I'm sitting here thinking about this and I'm going, Marcus was a full grown adult. He knew what he was doing. He made his choice. He was happy to do it. And he was. Yeah. And that's not on Ivanova, you know, and she says that she's like, I know it's not my fault, but yeah, she kind of needed somebody to say that to her. JMS says of the Marcus. Marcus was a martyr waiting to happen. Oh, I like that. He was looking for something worth throwing his life away on because he found little worth on his own. Is that is his character description. That is Marcus. Jeff, I could go into a big diatribe on this, on finding your worth and your value. I have before. So if I may just abbreviate the entire thing, because I know I have dived into this dive Dovin, Diven, have driven, Diven, doing, you know what I mean? Yes.

[20:12] I've done that in this show before. So in case somebody's not here, they're new. I will briefly say if you are listening to me and you're under the sound of my voice, please know this. Your worth and your value is in yourself as a human being. Because you suck air, you are valuable and you are worth it. And I know I speak for Jeff when I say we care about you and we are better because you are around even if we don't know who you are, This world is better because you are here and we need you here You are worth it and you're worth something. I don't believe marcus threw his life away in this situation This is how he wanted, To spend his life, essentially. This was the thing that for him gave him worth. And I really wish that he understood that he was worth so much more than.

[21:06] He didn't have to do this to find his worth. Exactly. He could have still done this fully knowing who he was as a human being. But he never got to know that. And he never, unfortunately, because of his own trauma, he never got to know that. Yeah, it's not an indictment of him that he didn't. Of course he didn't, given everything he experienced. And it's too bad. Somebody asked what would happen if Marcus would have survived. And Jameis said if he had survived, it would have just been a cop out. And he said as he's like that, if we do what we do to Ivanova and then we let her get bailed out and then we let Marcus also get bailed out, that becomes a double cheat. And that's not fair to the audience. If you bail her out, but you only get to do so at great cost to somebody else, that's not a cheat on either level. So for this to be true and to really bail her out someone had to go let's get back oh by the way i'm gonna i said it in the first in the recap from the first time we said it i'm gonna say it again incredible piece of acting by claudia here and i knew he loved me, i knew it, i just didn't want to admit it at least i should have boffed him just once.

[22:21] All love is unrequited steven i i cannot disagree more with all love is unrequited, i could see that many times love is not requited at a one-to-one ratio right like, but i think that's because the way we love and i'm going to encompass all of the loves with this isn't a constant right it's not like hey brent i love you four what do you love me i love you three no, yeah exactly it's like i love you four million right now and then i love you two at nine o'clock tonight when you're like hey jeff, Oh, my God, we have ups and downs. And so like, just like when you combine voices and you have the, you know, the the waveform on there, they don't line up all the time. So they may not line up exactly, but love can absolutely be requited. And I think very, very often is. I don't I was going to say the vast majority of the time, but I don't know. I don't know that to be true. I like what Paul says in our council chambers chat over here. It's not a statement of fact. It's a statement about what life has put Susan through. Oh, and while I 100% agree with you, Jeff, and I, I think that this is.

[23:38] Like, I actually feel sorry for Ivanova for having a life that has led her to this conclusion, that like you, I so vehemently disagree with when an individual has only ever experienced unrequited love to where they believe that that is the only type of love that actually truly exists. As I believe Ivanova does here, I feel very sad for her. And if I was Stephen Franklin right now, what I would want to tell her is not all love is unrequited. Especially if this is my friend, I'd be like, I requite your love. Yeah, I love you. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, it's amazing that Stephen didn't make a move on.

[24:21] Well, this is one of Franklin's best moments. It is. It is. Because he's a great great friend just an amazing friend here, you know And I'm gonna make fun of him because he's Stephen Franklin, but yeah, he's I mean Well, he can't he can't try and sleep with her because she doesn't have a medical condition anymore, I got cured and he just not it closes the door. Well now that's old Franklin. I think new Franklin's all for the cured He's trying new stuff out. Yeah to your earlier point. She says all love is unrequited and, I almost feel like two letters could make it more accurate. All my love is unrequited. You're late. No, no, no, no, you're early. I am never premature. Oh, well, that is a surprise, given what I've heard. Assuming you make it that far. See, Mr. Garibaldi is finishing up some personal business on Mars. Once it's done, I imagine he'll turn his attention to you. Look at his face. He's like, great. I'd rather face those sharpshooters of yours than what he'll do when he finds you. I don't know exactly how he plans to settle the score, but I'm sure it'll be, creative, colorful, and extremely unpleasant.

[25:32] Where is she? That's a good cut. That's good. I don't know what you're talking about. No? But I wanted you to be the first to see this. Obviously, we will need your support. This is the birth of the ISA. Your government has considerable influence with the League world. Delenn has a fascinating proposal for you all. I hope you have brought a change of underwear You'll need it after you read this Lano's in rare form this episode Well, he's back to himself, right? The president's waiting outside This guy If he'd like to speak to you Assuming you have nowhere else to go Assuming you're nowhere else to go He's like, I worked for hours on that bit.

[26:14] As you were. Okay. I'm sorry. I want you to just picture the full idea of what's going on here, okay? Doors open. This guy comes in. Hey, John, you're tired of sitting around?

[26:28] Because if you want, we got the... And outside the doors, President Lachinko is just sort of standing there waiting for her cue, like waiting for him to pop his head back around and be like, are we good? No. Oh. Like, she's just there hanging out right now. Waiting? And I'm not talking about an actress waiting on set for her cue to walk in. I'm talking about the president who sent somebody in to be like, it's like a CEO having a secretary call somebody to be like, hold for whomever. And then they just hand them the phone. Right. You're like, you're literally standing right there. What are you doing? Just wait long enough that they think I'm important and haven't gotten. I have another call I have to take. Right. Half of Earth Force wants to give you a kiss on the cheek and the Medal of Honor. The other half wants you taken out and shot. So, yes, you saved some lives. I'm not here to argue ethics with you, Captain. Right or wrong, you led an insurrection against your own government. You'll tender your immediate resignation. And I'll see to it. You will retain your military pension with full honors. And I'll guarantee amnesty for your officers and crew who served under you during this crisis. That's a big carrot and if i refuse.

[27:44] You'll be dishonorably discharged court-martialed and brought to trial and i'll make sure that the military tribunal is stacked with generals from the shoot him category, he shouldn't stay in earth force after what's happened he should be honorably discharged he should retire he should have full honors full pension full everything but he can't stay going forward because he was a part of the old thing and.

[28:14] In many ways, Jeff, this is Lorian. When Lorian went beyond the rim, he ultimately had to go because he was a part of the old thing. Lorian sticking around is a part of what was holding back all these other races from being able to go. The fact that the Vorlons and the Shadows, they stuck around to try to help the other races, and then obviously they lost the plot in the middle of it, and it became about themselves. But by doing so they actually hindered they weren't helping they were hindering is where they came to, lorian did nothing wrong in the middle of that but he was a part of that he was a part of that old guard so he also had to go and he couldn't stay right um, i think of frodo and in bilbo when lord of the rings right like at the end all the elves are going over to the to the eternal lands across the sea, right? Listen, Sam could come back. Marion Pippen can come back. Frodo couldn't come back. He was too far on the other side, right? Like with the ring specifically, like he, he was too close to, to that Bilbo too close to that. They had to go probably a very weak analogy on that one, but you.

[29:25] You get my point though. I think, I think it checks because I think part of the reason like Frodo had to go was like life lost luster for him. You know essentially he's just like i i got to this point and now like i just go back to the shire and smoke like that's what i do now like this just doesn't work, for me i'm not finding joy in these things in fact i'm not finding joy right i think that applies and it would apply to sheridan play it out where sheridan stays with earth force uh gets command of a ship well no No, no, he immediately has to become, an admiral or general or whatever. Right. Okay. Immediately. So I'm going to do that. Right. He becomes a general Sheridan.

[30:08] And now he's a, he's a desk jockey. I report to him and some order comes around and I'm like, I don't really like that order.

[30:15] And I work for General Sheridan, who doesn't follow orders. So I don't have to follow this order either. So, yeah, I mean, her saying this, like, no, no, no, you're going to go away. We're going to give amnesty to everybody. Like, this is all the exact right move. And he's like, well, what if I don't? And she's like, then I'll feed you to the wolves, which is a lesson that that's a maturity lesson. I think we all have to learn at some point. Like, hey, you can be a part of a thing and you can be a part of changing. You could be a part of whatever, and you don't actually get to benefit. You don't get to move forward with it, and that's okay.

[30:49] There's a quote that says, you don't get something for nothing. You don't get freedom for free. Let me guess. Is that from Rush? It is from the song Something for Nothing, track six on 2112. It's a great song, but you don't get freedom for free. There's a cost. Fourth line. And and he and the thing that i just thought of too he he's known this was going to be his cost, all the way back in like season three when he first had to take off his stat bar in that moment of beauty, that we we tied that to when he had to die to self and come back but it comes right back here i'm well i don't know that in that moment he thought he would never be able to he thought he i think he was still thinking he would rejoin north first that was the whole plan was free them from them and then we're right back with earth force right where we've been but i could also see as he's been in his quiet moments by himself thinking things through going.

[31:46] He's smart enough to be like i don't know that i can stay after all of this is done but also that's in the future i can't think about that right now exactly what other stuff i got to do the bitch of it is that you probably did the right thing, but you did it in the wrong way.

[32:03] In the inconvenient way Will you put the amnesty for my crew in writing? That's what's best for it's Sheridan doing what's best for Earth. That is what by me walking away. That's what's best for George Washington. What's best for this country and me is to go away now. And that's the thing. That's been his motivation from the beginning of this. I just want to do what's best for Earth. And so this is, again, the natural step.

[32:31] I think when we watched this the first time, we were under the impression that he's like, I'll resign because I'm about to come back as president of the ISA, baby. But he and Dylan have not spoken since he came down here. Dylan just told us that. And she just pulled everybody into the room to actually set the thing up. You know, I remember having this thought the first time we went through it. Like there's no, when did they have this conversation? Because I still think clearly he knows, like, I think he knows what's about to happen back. I think he has an idea of what's happening back on Babylon five. Yeah. Like he and Dylan have had these conversations over pillow talk, and he's just trusting that she's doing that. And so when she shows up the next day, He's already there. So like he is, is playing his role perfectly knowing that that thing is probably coming, I think is still my impression, but with what we're given and what we're shown in the show, there's no reason John should know what's happening right now.

[33:34] As I think, especially when you think about timelines, Dylan's been gone for months on men bar dealing with that. When she came back, he was on the egg. Amemnon doing the final drive. I mean, they're they've been talking, you know, or whatever. What I would I would my my headcanon in it is he's like, sure, I'll resign because I'm going to help build this thing. Like he knows the idea exists. I've got another project already in mind. Yeah. And Suzanne in our council chambers points out that he later says they have been setting this up for months, making them just rely on each other, I guess, in private conversation. So maybe what I've had in my headcanon is actually what the show told us. And now that's just what I like. I understand. I have thought over the last bunch of episodes in the background without us knowing John and Dylan are talking about this. I think like this is not when when Dylan presents these little pamphlets with the chicken dinner stuff on it to like they've already been thinking about this for months and months. We ask this question in rumors, bargains and lies. Is he setting up the ISA? And maybe yes. But just to be really clear, I don't think at any point does he know he's going to be president. He just says, I got another gig. I'm going to help build this thing. I think he knows it when he has a little attitude coming up in a bit. But at this point, he's just like, one, it's right for Earth. And two, I'm good. It's right for me.

[35:01] That's all, folks. Maybe I should push this button. I have a huge problem with this. I have so many problems with this. So first, I just want to say from a story, from a TV making standpoint, makes total sense. Otherwise, you just have an episode full of talking. So you have to have some action. Here it is. First, I couldn't care less about this. Knowing where it leads. Even not knowing where it leads. I just need Garibaldi back on Babylon 5. Yeah. I don't need Lisa. I don't need Lisa there. Agreed. In fact, I think he's better without her, to be honest with you. And Brent, what world exists that it makes sense to send a group of Rangers, to find lease Hampton Edgars? How is this a mission for the Rangers? Well, so I was going to say, so the person who would have told them to go would either be Dylan or John, unless Garibaldi just went and said, hey, I got a favor to ask. And they took it upon themselves to go. Right. Like he called up Marcus's buddies or something like that. But he wasn't that close to Marcus. No. Like, so presumably this had to be ordered by John or Dylan. When would they have? Obviously it would have been Dylan who would have ordered it. Said, yeah, you guys go. But she was probably just like, sure, I don't have time for this. Just yes, whatever. Just go. Yeah, sure. You're going to save a life. Okay. That makes sense to me. Go. But that would require Garibaldi going back to Dylan. After everything.

[36:25] Perhaps saving Ivanova was the only way he could find peace. Dillon? Because Marcus is carrying guilt that's not his own to carry. Did they tell you what Ivanova said at the end? I should have bought that. All love is unrequited. Yes. They told me. She's wrong, of course. So JMS talks about this. Okay. Someone asked, why did Lanier tell Delenn what Ivanova had said? And he says, because Lanier is quite familiar with the concept. He also feels, basically, love is unrequited. Also, because hope burns eternal, which is probably the most damnable part of unrequited love. Still hope you're going to love me, even though you don't. Just take the message. Dude, stop. Just move on. get over it we talked earlier about the coulda shoulda wouldas yeah, uh lanier right here is making the same mistake of on of a maid and you can see it in his face he's like should i say something right now no i'm not saying anything no he shouldn't what should lanier say right now.

[37:27] I love you no you're you're cracked no no because he no he knows, he's been there she is not available she is not there she is not for him to love she is with John that's very rational the same flame that burns eternal that's, Takes this moment where she's like, oh, and translates that to a chance because because what in order to do that, he literally becomes Jim Carrey from Dumb and Dumber going. So you're telling me there's a chance. Yep. Like that's literally you. You just said he is dumb and dumber. I think in that moment he should not know what he should do is be a be a grown up, put his big boy pants on and be like. Like, that one's not for me and is not available. Let me turn my attentions to someone else. Let me move on. And that's hard. I understand. But we're not teenagers anymore. We're not 20-somethings anymore. He is a full-grown, matured adult at this point. And he's acting like he's 13 years old. He does not need to tell her that. He needs to say, Deline, I'll tell you what he needs to say. Deline, I'm really happy for you. I hope that I can one day find someone the way that you have found John that's what he should say I think linear is 13 years old is the thing.

[38:57] When it comes to this in Minbari worlds yeah because like I'm just putting myself in his position where, We're talking about love and unrequited love, and she just looked me in the face with very soft eyes saying, oh, that's not true, and then caressed my face. And I know logically Sheridan's on Earth and might get the death penalty. He may not be on the board much longer. She's telling me right now that she's into me, and he's almost gone. Because that's his stupidity in the middle of all that. And I think we've seen that with linear so often. He has no idea how even just platonic relationships work. Yeah. he's playing a game he doesn't understand and that's the given where he's at he should make his move you are correct it is the wrong thing to do because and as delen kind of points out in the chat, he says that they're done there is no more relationship with them let's see that's not true either oh, that's not true because if something does happen to sheridan and it it's that it's what you you have to come to that like i'm not holding out for you, if we happen to cross paths again and we both happen to be single or we both happen to be in a spot, maybe then barring that you're on your path of love and i'm on my path of love and those are not the same path yeah dylan's never going to say that to him dylan's going to say oh you're very sweet no.

[40:19] But he needs to know that he needs to that's what i mean he needs to put his big boy pants on and just be a grown up about this and be like, she's on her own path of love the way she does. That's, that's, you know, also, can we talk about Dylan here? Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to take up the flag. Dylan doesn't need to be touching him. Agreed. She knows what's up. She can't figure out that he's got a thing for her and she doesn't realize that she's leading him on right now.

[40:44] She's as ridiculous as he is. A hundred percent agree. She needs to be able, she is the one in a relationship. She needs to put up walls and boundaries that are appropriate and i don't know what minbar culture is like maybe i just don't understand minbar culture but in this earthling is telling you that ain't appropriate, He's already kicking himself. Look at that face.

[41:09] But in the end, the battle they fought was the same. To protect and preserve an earth they could proudly call home. This really reflects back to the Lincoln speech. There's very much a, we were both in this situation. We were both doing these things. You know, Jeff, there's a thing, and I'm probably going to get some flack. From people in our community and you guys, you know me, you know, my heart, you know, I love you. But something I have a problem with is this concept of you can't say both sides, because we've heard that over the last. Oh, you can't say both sides when that side is X, Y, Z. And what she's saying here is both sides because both sides like the mature way to say no, no. There is a thing that's going on on both sides. There is a both sides to this issue. And to to shut that down means you're actually not ready to deal with an actual solution yet. All you want to do is shut all of those people out. And you are now no better than they are. When you go, you can't say both sides. You have to be able to say both sides. I am prepared for the emails. You can send them to Jeff at the bad nerds dot com. And I will read them. And I don't know. But no, seriously, both.

[42:35] I love what she's saying. Both sides did. Both sides were working to build a place that they would be proud to call home. They were doing it in very different ways, very dangerous ways in one way that almost obliterated the other. But in a in a rejoining and a coming together, we have to recognize that it's the goal, right? Her goal is to bring people back together. I think there are people whose goal is vengeance on the other side. There are other people that want justice, right? Like there's vengeance, there's justice, and then there's total reconciliation. And those are different approaches. If you are looking for vengeance, then there is no both sides. There's us, there's them, and they are wrong. Full stop. If you want justice, then it's, hey, they did these things and that needs to be remedied to the things, not necessarily the people, but the things. And then the coming together acknowledges the people. You did what you thought was best. You were probably wrong. And just a couple of comments from our council chambers as they're bringing so much wisdom and clarity and putting words that are still raw coming out of both of our mouths. But putting them in Dylan saying our Dylan saying both sides requires long follow up sentences. With lots of nuance yeah and you're absolutely right about that blend it's not just oh both sides do what no no.

[43:50] We can't just leave it there we do have to talk about that and paul continues you can say both sides but it has to be tempered by the earlier statement that you will investigate and find the true evildoers yes well there's both sides and then there are the people the individuals right and it's i think we've talked about this quite a bit i'll quote william edgars how many people were actually members of the nazi party or the jihad party or whatever. There's those individuals, everyone else, the people we talked about before the people who were just showing up to work or whatever, they're both sides. I give you captain John J. Sheridan. What's the J stand for? Jeff. Is it James? Jeff? I want to reiterate, as we walk into this, Jeff's perspective on this.

[44:38] We've had three years of President Clark in charge. Over those three years, and even preceding it, we had a strong xenophobic vibe and policies that were put into place. What we saw as viewers during that was the tip of that xenophobic spear were the Minbari, Minbari War Syndrome. They're capturing our ships. They're killing all of us and putting Minbari in place of the crew. Super focused on like literally two days ago, the Minbari were coming for us. So point one in this moment Sheridan comes up And the first thing he does Is looks at the Minbari Before he says anything Like hey is this going to be okay Is what I'm saying fine, I hate so much About what's coming I love so much of what is said I hate so much of how it's executed They shouldn't be here They just straight up, Jakar, Londo, Villain Should not be here I get it TV All the stuff I get it But oh my god This is.

[45:46] This is one of those where you just have to it's like watching a Fast and the Furious movie as a physicist you just have to forget the real world physics of it and just eat some popcorn and enjoy what they're putting in front of you have a good time, you just have to ignore the political bit of what's happening here and just enjoy what they're putting in front of you we talked about both sides you know what this does having the three of them here and then Dylan doing all the stuff, this turns both sides into one side who were like they were right Look at the Minbari. They actually are controlling it. We have evidence right here. Let's go. This is, oh my God. Okay, so I'm going to just say that so I don't keep coming back and saying it. Just know I think this is wildly inappropriate.

[46:25] Is that okay? Is this okay? Am I all right? For we are all children of earth. What a great speech. We are all sons and daughters. I love that speech so much because this is a thing we don't see from leadership. We don't see a leader standing up and saying, I need to, you know, this is where I need to make this choice. I need this thing. It's always something else, right? If someone comes up, Hey, I did this thing, but this was happening and this was happening. There are these circumstances. And so, you know, whatever. I think he took real accountability. You have shown through your example that strength comes from a multitude of voices brought together in common cause.

[47:07] Humans form communities. In that spirit, we have voted to dissolve the League of Non-Aligned Worlds and create a new alliance.

[47:17] I want to break this down because you and I have had lots of conversations about this ISA. We had a meeting as we record this just this past weekend where we talked about this at length with our council chambers and kind of spun. What is the ISA? What was its purpose? What does it actually do? Did it have any actual substance? Did it do anything? And so what Jakar says here, the purpose of the ISA, let's just catalog it, right, is to come together for a better future. Under a singular authority. Under, and in doing so, they're going to recognize a new authority. Okay. This new alliance will help less advanced worlds improve their conditions. Good. Okay. She is swinging a hammer. I'm sorry. Okay. But yeah, so we're going to have all ships rising tide mentality here. We're going to try to help the underdeveloped ones come up. Encourage better relations between our races. Okay, we're going to encourage inter-species collaboration, which probably doesn't set well with a whole lot of people on Earth right now, but that's all right. And promote free trade. That's great. And promote trade. We talked about this. They had to do something with trade, like, because it was like our whole thing was individual member worlds still get to control their own stuff internally.

[48:39] They're just going to kind of oversee when things go in between and they're going to they're going to oversee trade. They're going to oversee military, like shared military, I think it was, and probably something economically or something like that, which to bring up lesser lesser worlds and everybody. Central to this process is a group of humans Trained to work together And dedicated to the higher principles of duty Honor and peace, They have been entrusted with the most advanced fleet of ships in existence. Some music. Now that the first ones have left us. People don't know who the first ones are. Yeah. Yeah, this is not good. Stop it, Jeff. Eat the popcorn. Put away the politics and eat the popcorn. They are called the Reign. Yeah! With the charity!

[49:33] Military parades man we love them we're just showing, that's intent that's intentionally mirroring the shadows over centauri prime it's got it they come in peace camera angles and everything stay only where they are invited to stay this is a political and economic alliance, not one based on military strength political and economic the gains you will achieve by working peacefully with other races far outweigh anything.

[49:57] Political and economic not military Right. And Starfleet is not a military organization. Yeah. And don't pay any mind to those white stars we just told you about that are going to do military stuff. The fleet of white stars that just flew over. And all the rangers. That are a flint. The most powerful ships ever designed. I have so many of them. Along with this army of humans and Minbaris. You know, the thing that we've literally been telling you for years is happening and is coming for you? Yeah. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Right. Finally, each member race will be able to contribute volunteers to join the Rangers, thereby assuring their independence. We're going to farm people from you. No, no, no, no, no. That's good. This is not exclusive to the humans and the Mimbari. This is open to all. Because we're the Mimbari. I'm going to come at this from the other side of you. I hear what you're saying. And one side is going to interpret it the way you're interpreting it. The other side is going to interpret it the way I'm interpreting it. Which is no, they're not farming. They're opening it up so that it's not just exclusively these two groups. And that's a good thing. Yeah. That's what the league hears. That's awesome. The room she's in, in the capital of the people of the city in the world that she's at, they're hearing it as terms of they're going to farm our people.

[51:18] We're they're going to call it volunteering. I mean, they just are going to be drafted. Yeah, there's experience that with Nightwatch. Like they have they've gone through this. I I'm beating this drum. I said I wasn't going to beat it. I can't help it. But I also want to acknowledge that they are condensing probably six episodes, whatever, of content into one episode right here. We believe it will signal a new age of peace and prosperity.

[51:48] She's so hard when she says it, though. Exactly. That does not, I will agree, that does not instill hope and joy. And like yes come join this is what you want to be a part of this is you're we're really good people and you want to come join us, yeah the way she i mean even the look on her face her brow is very furrowed as she's saying this like we will take belt to ass, if you want us to ben ben says he's like he stands by all of this if you read it on paper this is fine and i agree this This is a thing that is written well. It is the execution 100%. Like every bit of the execution on this is just completely counters what was written. I understand the optimism and the, I'm going to just say it, the glasses of the rose-tinted glasses and nostalgia glasses that people look at. We're like, this is fine. Everything she's saying is great. It is not. I'm just going to say right now, let me boo. Who's a bad guy I can pick on? Darth Vader. Go. No, I want to make it much more relevant, but I don't want to single anyone out.

[53:02] I'll just do this. Like in the 80s, the terrorists. Okay, right? Like the things. So... I've literally, as a human living on Earth, and I cannot hit this point hard enough, they are in the capital of Earth talking to humans right now. And for years, I have been told that the terrorists are coming to get me. There are people who fought the terrorists who are now sympathetic to them because of terrorist war syndrome. Every bit of media has told me these people are dangerous and they are coming for me. Now, a war just happened that overthrew my government and maybe I liked it. Maybe I didn't. That's irrelevant. What I'm watching on my television screen right now are the terrorists coming in and having ships fly over and telling me they're going to start a military force for which they will accept the volunteers. My brother was a volunteer for the night watch, and then I didn't see him anymore because he got called into this thing. Literally everything about this is awful. I mean, this should unite Earth against the Minbari, against the Interstellar Alliance. They just validated every bit of propaganda they've been fed for years. No one's hearing this for what it is. No one is. Except for those people who are super hopeful.

[54:23] Everyone else is like, oh my God, President Clark was right. I would fight you on this, except for Dylan's posture, Dylan's face, Dylan's timbre of voice, the music that's playing behind it and the entire fleet of white stars that just flew over. Like, yeah, you're right. It's just not right. And we can we can excuse, you know, it was written well. The idea was all these things. This is what hit the screen. And it is not. This is this is this is bad. Also, just to point out, you are doing to this what doctors do to Grey's Anatomy all the time. This is not what you do!

[55:05] Eat the popcorn, Jeff. Just eat the popcorn. Have a good time. I also hate the fast food. The invitation to join a new alliance is... I'm going to fire you again. In the past, we have kept many of our technological advances to ourselves. In a gesture of good faith... This is a good move. ...how to use energy fields to create gravity in your ships, eliminating the need to... This is the conversation that should have been had, not to rotate to create gravity. If we decide to pursue this, who should we negotiate with? I do love that Earth is like, we're not just automatically in. The three of us make up the advisory board of the new alliance. We have a duly elected president.

[55:48] And where can I find this president? You funny thing about retiring, you know, sooner pick up, he knows you want to go on vacation. Now he does. Someone comes at you with another job offer. Where's the certificate of amnesty?

[56:03] So do we, I guess the other option is not that Sheridan knew about this months ago, but that Sheridan had a little sit down with the three of them in between the podium talk and then them going in to talk to Linchenko, and they like, John, we're going to make you. And he was all like, oh, well, I did the right thing and now I'm going to be a president again. Like, I guess that's probably what we're supposed to understand. My first watch was he'd been playing on the whole time because he knew about this months and months and months ago. That's where I think he knew about the ISA and building that up. And they came in like, hey, so we did it and we held an election and we voted and we have a president. Oh, cool. Who is it? You Sheridan's also a person of like he's studied history. He knows things. He is not a dumb person. At some point he has had the thought to himself well who's going to lead it who's going to be the first president i'm actually probably the person that makes the most sense maybe dylan maybe one of these other people but i'm honestly probably the, i'm doing all of this it's probably me also i'm jesus so right it should be me he's normally an abraham lincoln guy but in this moment he's like george washington i'll be that he has thought about it he makes the most sense to be the guy to lead it if it's somebody else then fine it's somebody else but it's probably going to be him, he walked into this knowing all of that stuff I stand by what I said my first watch this was all set up he knew I love this power move right here.

[57:31] It just is absurd to me that this guy would come in and try to take and revoke the amnesty papers. There's someone here you may want to see. Aw. Hey, Dad. Dude, he looks like he's been so well treated. He does not look like he's been a POW at all. Well, look at Sheridan. He looks fine, too, now. Well, yeah, Sheridan was in torture two episodes ago. I'm going to go back. Just there are so many of these that it's just it becomes ridiculous to say, but just amazing acting. Sure. Hey, Dad. From from. Oh, my. Oh, my God. Melts. Melts my heart.

[58:15] He's like eight years old. He's so happy to see his dad. I love it. OK, fine. I'm fine. Yeah, she really does. Well, welcome to the family. I love your comments on this from our first show, Jeff, of how he just, everybody who's so, oh, and he just turns around and he's like, welcome to the family. Later this afternoon, President Luchenko will sign an executive order declaring Mars a free and independent world. Did he just link at the canyon? I saw that too. So, have you decided yet whether you're going back to Babylon 5? No, not yet. Just to put this in place, at the time, the plan was for the next episode to be Sleeping in Light. Sleeping in Light, Michael Garibaldi and Lise Hampton, Edgars Garibaldi, are married and have a kid. So just putting it in its place. You know I'm going to need someone to help me run Edgar's Industries. I also have to say that those candles that close to the comforter is really giving me anxiety. Oh boy, we do that. They're gonna say that I married you for your money Let them.

[59:29] To all of you who came in our comment section, sent us emails and blasted Jeff and I, for thinking and having the gall to think and being confused by the idea that in season five, that these two people were not married. I got two words for you. Suck it. Cause that's exactly what they say. That's exactly what they're intending. Everything else is a retcon, and yeah, you may be technical on it, but this leads everyone to believe in a first watch that they're freaking married. Get out of my comment section. You can apologize now. Of all the things, Jeff, that people sent us emails in and all the crap we took, this is the one, that I felt the single most justified in, And it pissed me off the most when people would start yelling at us about it, because this is exactly what he meant. They just retconned it later. That's all it was. It's exactly what they meant, because sleeping in the light is next where they're married. Have a kid. The use of language. Just let me to present. I know the other side is the thing we're doing quite a bit of today.

[1:00:44] You and I are we're lovers and we've had an on again, off again relationship. It's been pretty tumultuous right now. We're lying in bed trying to set a comforter on fire with us still under it for whatever reason. And we've been talking about what if we got married, right?

[1:01:01] And I'm like, people are going to say I married you for your money. It's a talking about the future conversation, which is where the retcon is true. After you've seen season five. When you have not watched season five, they're married right here. Now, I know there are people who will say and people who are saying, as I see, that even when they watched this the first time, they still didn't think that they were married. That was never a thought that occurred to them. That's fine. That's still not what was being implied, though. Here's the thing. OK, let me let me bring it back. I was I was being a little overdramatic, folks. I was actually trying to be a little funny. OK, I was trying to be funny. If I offended you. I.

[1:01:44] I'm not really sorry, but Jeff, look, here's the thing. If you are a person who looked at that and did not say, oh, they're actually married here and it didn't bother you or confuse you in the slightest that they weren't married come season five when they brought this whole thing back around. That's fair. That's fine. But what you shouldn't do and what you at least have to recognize is that the implication is there and that people can and will interpret it that way and that it can't. And that interpretation is equally as valid as no. They're just talking about, you know, other future stuff and the what if like you got to have it both ways here. Well, there's also a third way. The way Jeff looked at it. I don't care. Good for you. You're married. You're not married. Whatever. Right. But when you're watching season five, going, wait, what?

[1:02:41] I think I went like this. I'm like, they're totally married. Oh, they're not? Okay. This makes no difference. I don't care. Captain Ivanova has asked for an issue to transfer to one of the new Warlock-class destroyers. They are quite a couple, aren't they? Yes, they are.

[1:03:00] It almost makes you wish that you could peek in on them. See how it's going, is your car the artificial eye that dr franklin gave you, that look on his face the fact you can see the look on his face through that makeup I mean yeah, 2261 and it was the dawn of a new age that is totally the Caprica I think I talked about this before where Oh, we got canceled, and we had all these cool ideas, so we're going to use a chunk of our last episode to squeeze it all in. They just put it into the capable hands of Mira Furlan. To explain, Brent, on the eye thing, the Jakar in there, I actually have some information. Oh. Shared by our incredible council chambers. Katerina specifically, thank you.

[1:03:54] Says actress Mira Furlan. God, it's uncomfortable to even read this. Says, these are her words. Okay. She says, I like that. Joe can be a naughty boy, says actress Mira Furlan. Joe didn't allow that scene to stand on its own. He included this evil and cynical commentary, this side story with Jakar and Londo. That's good, because with this romantic aspect, there's always the danger of being too melodramatic and too sweet. In this way, yes, they're finally together, lying in this bed. They love each other, they've conquered this evil in the universe, but there's this nasty little element, this cynical joke with Jakar, which kind of puts it on human ground. It's an interesting take. I think it was played for laughs simply. Was there anything else that you have that JMS talked about? He had a few things here. He had a few things.

[1:04:47] Most of it just has to do with the idea of the end of the show. One person asked if this would have been the end, how would he have felt about it? And JMS says, and I think this is good to know, if this had been it, I would have walked away with a great big smile and a full heart. He would have felt this show was good, was done. Season five was extra. This was not that's that's Brent talking now. Somebody asked, though, they said, if everything has now been wrapped up because he had to compress everything, what would be left for season five? And I would like to present you with the list that JMS. Okay. Put forth at this point. He said, well, things that could show up, leaving some ambiguity just to keep the surprises. The start of the telepath war. Oh, my God. Yes. Londo's fate on Centauri Prime, right?

[1:05:41] The first year of trying to make the Interstellar Alliance work, literally what season five was. Interfaction fighting among the Alliance members would be something you put in there. The development of Mars as an independent state. Oh, I think we got just the briefest bits of that. Just mentioned. Yeah, like it was that's happening over there, but we're over here. So yeah, like number one shows up and it's like, oh, this thing happened. The legacy of William Edgar's black projects. Oh, that would have been cool. We didn't get anything with that. Really fall out from the Civil War and people's feelings about that. I don't know that we really they didn't explore that in season five. They explored it through Lockley. I think with Garibaldi trying to figure out what side of the fence she was on. But yeah, so minuscule very surface level didn't how Lanier Sheridan and Dillon will now get along. Not well, and he He goes, how's that just for starters? And listen, if anybody got upset at the way that I responded earlier, it's just a joke. And if you didn't appreciate the joke, I'm sorry. We're going to get emails about it. I apologize to you because you're going to have to read those emails. Right. But here's the thing about a second time viewing.

[1:06:52] God, I don't think that we can accurately describe just the I'm going to get my hand on the sensor button here. The absolute raft of shit. That we had to wade through the first time where people were like, you're wrong. You didn't this, you watched this the wrong way. You didn't like, I mean, and we've talked about people talking through multiple watches, lenses, and we're here. And I mean, some of those, many of them we were able to laugh at, you know, and just like, Oh my gosh, some of them totally crossed lines and were wildly inappropriate. Those are the ones I think that really, and frankly, they kind of stung a bit. Some of them. Yeah, absolutely.

[1:07:29] They certainly did. And I don't mean to belabor those points. I really don't. But yeah. But on second watch, we get to do two things. One, we get to join in that. Like when we were listening to the episodes. How often have we made fun of ourselves? Exactly. When we listened to our prior episodes early on in this, we both would come on. I was so mad at my, I wanted to punch myself in the face. I couldn't believe I was saying these things. That's the fun part. We also get to point back at some of those things and be like, see? See? There's no, come on. You know it's not right now, but back then it certainly... One bit of business we have to take care of, and this is on you this week, is as we create the objectively correct, the definitive ranking of all the episodes in the fourth season of Babylon 5, you have to place Rising Star. Our top five at this time, number five, we have The Long Night. And number four, we have No Surrender, No Retreat. Number three is Endgame. Number two is Intersections in Real Time. And number one, what you've called the greatest hour in television, Into the Fire. Brent, where are you going to rank Rising Star? You know, I said Into the Fire was the greatest hour in television. That was actually the second time I said that about this show. The show has at least two hours that are the greatest hours of television ever, which is pretty phenomenal. It is the best episode ever, just like the other four.

[1:08:56] I don't know that there really is an appropriate place to put an episode like this. The problem is this episode does not stand on its own. It depends on certainly in game coming before it, but also probably the four or five episodes that came before that. Also, the three point eight other episodes of seasons of episodes that came prior to that. Right. Like this episode does what it needs to do to wrap up a story. Yep. Because sleeping in light is a whole and that's the intended next episode. Right. Sleeping in light is is a whole other thing. This is the thing that wrapped up the story and it did what it needed to do, given what it what its time was. And I think it did it masterfully. I think it did it beautifully. And I think whatever issues we might have with it, those issues, frankly, are just they're caused by the compression. And I'm okay with those issues. I don't like the whole thing with the Lynn and all of that kind of stuff that was just entirely inappropriate. I I'm okay with it. If I apply the, which episode would I rather watch first again? Um.

[1:10:05] Okay, let me also make another confession. I am struggling to remember what each one of these episodes were by title alone. Okay, I'm going to let you veto this for me, because if you do, I think I know what I'm going to do with it. Okay, but I want to make a proposal. I would tell you if we take this episode as a standalone episode by itself, I'm going to slot it just below atonement, because I think atonement was such a monumental episode. It was a good episode. If I want to feel good, I'm going to go for atonement over this episode, which I know is very weird because atonement is not necessarily a feel good episode. But I think between the two, that'll be the one that I would go for first. So Rising Star on its own, I think slots there. However, I think we could make the argument that Rising Star is not an episode that stands on its own. Rising Star is an episode that is basically a part two of Endgame. It is the rest of Endgame. It's what happens with the rest of in-game. I could make the argument that perhaps this should fit in slot with in-game up in the number three slot as a part one, part two. Now, I will allow you to veto it. So if we think of it together, I'm going to leave it up at number three. If we force it to stand on its own, it's going to become the new number eight.

[1:11:24] When we did our predictions, the first watch that we shared earlier on this episode in that conversation, the first time I remember we were both just like.

[1:11:36] Duh, they literally told us what is happening in the next episode. Like it literally is a here's what's coming next.

[1:11:48] And it's wrapping up this story. The story is not done because that's the next part of the story. Yeah. I need to own some bias as I, as I, as I work through this. And that is, I, I want this episode to be ranked lower. I am so, I'm so against giving it a pass because I was, I was like this with end game. Even the first time I, I'm not going to give it a pass because it was condensed. It's what was put on screen. I'm not going to give it a pass because on paper, the Dylan thing looked fine. It was, I, I even had the intention of watching this. It's like, Hey, I'm just going to come in with, I couldn't, it's so in your face that this is aggressive and horrible and there's no way anyone could take that as a positive thing. So I'm going to own that up front. I think I've been crystal clear about that actually through this, through this watch that said, it, it really is the conclusion to end game. You could watch these. This is a serialized show with a couple of exceptions. The beauty of it is it's a self-contained episode beginning, middle end that is part of a larger story. You can cut those things out. Intersections in real time between the darkness and light is a perfect example, right? It is totally the sequel to it, but those are their own episodes. You can even wrap face of the enemy in that is a part one, two and three. But in this one, like it's literally this happened. And the very next thing is the opening scene of this one.

[1:13:14] I'm going to say, yeah, you can combine them. I agree. But we didn't do that for the first six episodes, though. Because they came out differently. And they did. You're right. And they didn't. Literally, the closing one scene was not the opening of the next scene. Exactly. They were. Each one of those was a beginning, middle, and end episode. Yeah. We're going to catch some flack for this. But, yeah, this is an in-game.

[1:13:39] Rising star duo. We'll have this conversation next season about objects in motion and objects at rest. Yep. But yeah, that's where I am. And if you guys don't like it, email us in. They can copy and paste the emails. Thebadnerdsatgmail.com. As I said, they can copy and paste the emails they sent when we did this last season. Yeah. It's fine. It's fine. Jeff, how did this shake out last time we did this? Last time we did this, it was the number two episode. Rising Star was? Rising Star was number two. That must have been the one that put it there. You were. Uh huh. Just I think we actually tried to not because of the way we did the two parters. We tried to make it that we weren't ranking the same ones, but because we did the two parters together, it skewed things, but I would not put this above intersections in real time. So that's a travesty. I agree. I completely agree. Our top five. The first time around was, let me put the side by side. Okay. Our top five, the first time around in number five, the long night, which is our top number five in this one. In number four, we had no surrender, no retreat, which is number four for us on the second time. Number three, we had intersections in real time. Number two, we had rising star. And in number one, we had into the fire and in game fell where number, 7. Were we doing it last time where you did one and then I did one? Yeah, I ranked endgame. That's why. And you were very angry. I was. And I very much loved Rising Star.

[1:15:07] But I am man enough to confess to you now that putting Rising Star in above intersections in real time is stupid. It was not the right choice. I agree. No, it was not. It was not. Our Rising Star has risen. And we are moving on to what is actually the finale of season four we've been talking about moving into sleeping in the light but that's not what we're doing, we're gonna watch the deconstruction of falling stars do you remember what you thought of this episode the first time around yeah i thought this was a.

[1:15:39] This episode very clearly felt like a rushed oh crap this isn't this isn't what we were trying to do, Um, it doesn't go with the story of anything that's going on. Um, I, I remember it's a neat look. It's, it's a neat 45 minute timeout. Do you remember with, uh, chorus mother chorus father? Like, Hey, that's a neat Vester episode. Yeah. Should not be the final episode of Vester in, in Babylon five. That's a crime, right? Like cool concept could have slotted it in anywhere. You know, you take, you take a deconstruction falling star and you put it anywhere in season five, and it works exactly the same uh it just felt uh we're doing something because we have to have a finale, and and that's really what it was you know well done it was well done but it i just remember that was my overall feeling was that it was, it it it was serving as an emergency placeholder almost that was my thought um cool concept though, and i'm eager to watch it again, knowing what it is now. How about you?

[1:16:49] I remember, I think I mentioned it for this one, but I said it was, it was the final episode of Caprica of just like, Hey, here's all the cool stuff we were going to do. Here's what we're leading to. You know, I've got a couple minutes to, to do some stuff or whatever. One of the big things I remember though, about it, just, we do, you talk about the feelings that episodes give us. And I think I probably watched the episode two or three times. I watched every episode at least twice the first time around. But the very first time I watched it like on, and you can see that on our Patreon page of the reaction posted. It just was like a lot of, okay, what is happening right now?

[1:17:23] I felt very ungrounded in it. It was a thing. And on the second watch, the detailed watch and taking notes was like, okay. So I remember breaking out the time periods on my notes and kind of trying to jot down what happened and trying to connect them and everything. I look back on it. I enjoyed it. I liked it. I thought it was a great idea. I think it was executed really well. But it was just, it was just weird. I, I'm going to posit a thought as we move into next week's episode, maybe the rising stars, not Sheridan, but the interstellar Alliance itself. Possibly. So I'm going to put that out there and we're next week going to explore that. And so make sure you're subscribed so that you can answer that question along with us while you are subscribing. Make sure you leave a comment rating review, do all those things. A thing you could do that would really mean the world to Brent and myself is share this show share it with someone who loves Babylon 5 and needs to be with us on this incredible journey as we watch this show for the second time so until next time my name is Jeff Akin that is, no uh Brent we are not, we're not gonna do do it this time no hey Jeff okay then what uh.

[1:18:36] You know what, No, no, no, no, no, no, we're not doing this. Hey, now, you're a rising star. Get your game on. Go play. Hey, now, you're a rising star. Get the show on. Get paid. And all that glitters is Quantium 40. Only falling stars break the mold. I mean we're not some deep space franchise, this station is about something.