Intersections in Real Time | For the Second Time

[0:44] The years 2026, the name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. Jeff, I'm so excited. All right, Jesse. I'm so excited. Power down. And with this episode, I'm so scared. And there is no saved by the bell in this episode that we're heading into. There's not. There's no saved at all. Brent Allen, Jeff, Jeff Aiken. That's who we are. We used to be Star Trek podcasters. We're now watching Babylon 5 for the second time because Babylon 5 is a show you get to watch for the second. We're now watching Babylon 5 for the second time because Babylon 5 is a show you get to watch for the first time twice. All that stuff that we always say.

[1:35] We're excited to be here. You know what else we're excited about? What's that? Trying to find those sci-fi messages that are contained within this episode. Yeah, there's a couple in this one. Yeah, we have a litmus test that we use, a three-part litmus test. Does it hold up a mirror to society? Does it give us hope that things can be better in the future? Or does it just tell us how to be better human beings to one another? Those are the things we're looking for. What is contained? I'll be honest. I'm sure this episode is full of them. I'm trying to think through it. And I'm not really sure where all they are. Okay. But that being said, Jeff, must give warnings abounding for this episode. Yes, we must. One is our obligatory spoiler warning. Now, if you've never seen this episode all the way through for yourself for the first time, cool. We've got a whole show lined up for you that you can do that. It's called Babylon 5 for the first time. Completely spoiler free. Go check it out there. Because for Jeff and I, from this point forward, anything and everything is fair game for us to talk about. In this series, quite frankly, in any other series that's, I mean, any series, it doesn't matter. Everything is on the table for us. We will hold nothing back as far as spoilers go. They could be in universe out of universe in canon non-canon whatever it is all fair game for us to talk about so you should.

[2:54] Uh not continue with this particular episode until you have gone through that show unless you just really don't care about spoilers in which case hey come along for the ride, also it occurs to me as we're sitting here in this moment uh today's episode deals with some pretty touchy stuff jeff yep deals with um themes of kidnapping, uh uh harm bodily harm torture uh mental abuse all of that sort of stuff um, is in this episode so if that's a thing for you you might want to skip this one as well but otherwise join us along because this is a i mean gosh what this episode does it's it's a it's a masterpiece it's hard but it's a masterpiece, it's uh to continue a theme we've hit the last couple of episodes it's the best episode of babylon five along with all the other best episodes exactly and for those of you who didn't read the title of this thing. Just so you know, we're watching a show, an episode called Intersections in Real Time and we're watching it for the second time. So that makes me question how real the time is. But we played a game the first time we watched this, where we would try and predict what the next episode is going to be about based on the title alone.

[4:03] Brent, what did you what did you predict this was going to be about? I said, basically, this was Chain of Command Part 2, only Babylon 5. I know what it is. Only Babylon 5, I think, does it better. They do it differently. Different, yeah. I don't, listen, Chain of Command Part 2 is a great episode. It's a tour de force episode. This episode, also just fantastic. And they're very different. And I think JMS would slap me if I said that they were the same. They're not the same by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I think this one did it better. I said that this would also be Garibaldi trying to atone for what he did. And in doing so he would be the one who goes to rescue uh captain sheridan, and i said that actually this episode should be retitled and the title of this episode should be jeff, the redemption of michael garibaldi oh that's what okay that's not what happens no it's really it's really not no how about you what'd you say so i thought that this was going to be the interrogation of john sheridan but i also thought that, garibaldi was going to get onto babylon five He's going to talk Zack down and essentially get arrested instead of shot, like Ivanova said. And the episode would primarily be a back and forth showing how the Clark regime interrogates and questions and treats its prisoners compared to how the Babylon 5 resistance crew interrogates and treats their prisoners. That'd be an interesting episode.

[5:29] I thought the B story, the B plot in this one would be Delenn and Lanier trying to figure out how to bust Sheridan out. And we'd get a chance to see Lanier bust out his third feign of Chidomo karate to do some damage. That also would have been really cool. Not necessarily seeing Delenn and Lanier do some stuff, but just seeing Lanier bust out his feign of Chidomo stuff. That's just always awesome. It's always great. Well, Jeff, that's what we predicted the episode was about. We were right in some cases, wrong in many others. But what did we think about the episode the first time around? I'm apprehensive about this. I got feelings. Why don't we check out and see just to remind ourselves and the listening audience out there where we were the first time around on this particular episode.

[6:13] Previously, on Babylon 5, for the first time. Intersections in real time, or aka, two dudes in a room talking, literally. This episode has happened in all kinds of series, right? The interrogation, the guy being tortured. All those other series, though, that what they didn't do was end the episode with the impression that this is going to be an endless loop of constant interrogation. This episode ended with no hope. This wasn't Chain of Command, but it was Comes the Inquisitor. But do you know what it did have that Comes the Inquisitor had? Wayne Alexander. Isn't that powerful? William is the worst kind of evil in my mind. He's the kind of evil that just is following along, just doing his job, not asking questions and doing horrible things willingly and kind of having a good time at it. Apparently he's not that good at it. The idea that he's laying on the floor next to the drain, which is in the middle of the floor, is foreboding is all get out what did they plan this room for oh it's exactly.

[7:18] What this room is planned for yeah he got sick from the corned beef, you know so at some point they came in they hosed the room down or whatever changed his clothes for him that's what i was gonna say did they change his clothes because they sure looked like the same clothes these are the things i was thinking of like he's sitting there in urine soaked pants he's just sitting there in squishy bottom pants There was no marker of how long this has been. The only marker that we had was his beard. They have this story that they have crafted that Sheridan, a war hero with psychological distress has gone.

[7:55] To the enemy. What do you call that? Like Stockholm Syndrome or something? Yeah. They call it Minbari War Syndrome. That's the storyline that they are trying to force out of him, truth or not, to the point that they wrote his confession for him. Whenever anybody writes your confession for you, that is not a confession. Call the red flag. But you can tell this is not something that they're saying, that they're confessing to. Last week we talked about Ivanova talking about the person is expendable, but the job is not. And in this one, we saw Sheridan living that. I'm going to do what I have control of. And what I have control of is telling you no. And I will die knowing that I said no to the very end.

[8:43] That's some heavy stuff, man. Yeah, appropriately so. Yeah. What do you say we watch this one for the second time now? Let's do that. I've got a couple things that JMS said about this that I think are appropriate as we dive in. Oh, okay. First off, this was actually originally intended to be the season four finale. We've brought that up a couple of times. But about the title, he says, each act took place in real time. There are no time jumps. The conversation happened as it happened since you had act breaks in between them those became the intersections in real time so the only time jumps were when we went to commercial break, and those could have been for minutes or days we will never know, is that it that's it all right so let's do it let's watch we're gonna bring the episode up we're gonna watch it we're gonna talk about it while it's going on for youtube we're gonna edit it like a reaction video you can, watch that of course if you want to see the full and unedited version of us watching the episode and commenting on everything the the rabbit holes we go on the the things that just don't quite make that final cut we post that on our patreon page at patreon.com slash bad nerds, and if you guys want to.

[9:58] Listen to this episode on an audio podcatcher or something like that well never fear you're not going to miss a single thing because we're going to take all of that same audio all of those conversations, we're going to drop it in. You're going to catch all the stuff on the backside. So Jeff, with that, let's dive into this episode. Yeah, here's that foreboding is F. Captain, I just thought you should know. They've got your dad, John. I wonder if they let just, just like, all right, Bruce, we'll see you. It's Friday. We'll see you on Monday. Don't shave this weekend. Are you currently taking any medication? Have you had any trouble with your heart?

[10:51] In the chat, Ben brings up a thing I've thought about myself, and I think it's a really great way to kind of consider this moving in, but what if this isn't the first loop? I was thinking that earlier. How many loops is this? Do you have any allergies or illnesses I should be aware of? Are you currently taking any medication? Have you had any problems with your heart? My heart is breaking because I haven't seen Delenn.

[11:23] Good then, we can begin. It's a pertinent set of questions to have to ask before you torture somebody. You're not trying to kill them. Exactly. And if you do something that's going to send them into any sort of shock or, uh, allergic reaction, or, you know, you're going to stop their heart or something of that nature. Like you gotta be aware. So I'm not actually trying to kill you here. I want a thing to happen. Yeah. I'm going to hurt you. I'm going to maim you. I'm going to all that sort of stuff. But I need to make sure that you're healthy enough for me to do that first. But getting here's the thing, though, getting him to answer yes or no to those questions is the first step towards breaking him. Uh-huh. Exactly. What is it when you get captured, your POW? What are you supposed to say? There's only three things you're supposed to say, right? Jeff Akin, five, four, three, two, one, six, zero. Name rank also. So yeah, yeah. Name rank and serial number, right? Fleet Admiral Jeff Aiken. Emperor of the world. So if you even just say yes or no, you answer that question, by the way, that's a sales technique too. Yep. Just get you saying yes to something until you say yes to the sale. We're all about momentum as people. Yeah. Yes. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Hmm. So that's where he starts.

[12:47] Like, he hasn't said really much. He hasn't done anything. I've seen this before. You had been under the influence of outsiders. Is that a fair thing to say? You've been under the influence of other people. Okay, hold on. The correct answer there is yes. We are all under the influence of those that we interact with on a daily basis. You out there, you are currently under my influence. But, I mean, whoever you spend time with, you are being influenced by them one way or another. Yeah. Yeah, but you're giving him an opening with that. I understand.

[13:21] Let me riff on that, though. Yeah, go ahead. Because you are 100% correct. We're influenced by who we surround ourselves with. But in the context of this, I'd be like, oh, I was under the influence of someone. President Clark and the horrible things that he has been doing that are illegal and immoral and awful. That has influenced me. Jeff, I mean, I will say this. I am, I am a big part of who I am today is because of the time I've spent with you over the last three or four years, you and me both, you know what I mean? It has shaped me into much of what I am today, which is very different than who I was back then. And that's the growth and stuff. So Sheridan's been out there. He's been shaped by all that sort of stuff. I know when I went to go live overseas, I spent three years living overseas. And let me tell you what, that experience changed my life. It changed my thinking. a change when i got a picture of the bigger world and everything outside of me when i became the minority you know, opened my eyes to a lot that i was not open to before, going out and being influenced but i've been living on a space station for the last three years two years however long the three years now i guess he's been two and a half, yeah he's been under the influence of these other people but i like your answer better yeah his name's clark, because if i'm this guy when he says no i'm going to do exactly that oh so you haven't been in contact with anyone now you're lying to me i mean aren't we all under the influence of others there you go it's part of being in the world, this is really excellent corned beef.

[14:48] Oh, I love corned beef so much. Now you get just the right mustard. The brown with the seeds, not the yellow kind. French's will do in a pinch, but he's right. Dijon. No, get that brown mustard with the seeds, like for real.

[15:04] If it's morning, you can't have it. If it's lunchtime, you can. Is it lunchtime? I'm sure it's lunchtime somewhere. There you go. It's five o'clock somewhere, baby. Exactly. It does prove though how everything is a matter of perspective out there doesn't matter what time it is in here it's lunchtime if you and i decide that it is, the truth is sometimes what you believe it to be and other times what you decide it to be that's an interesting statement, the truth is what you believe it to be and sometimes what you decide it to be i don't disagree with that necessarily Well, no, and that's the thing. I mean, what is truth? Who says what truth is and what's not true? The winners, ultimately. Well, but like in reality, like who says what's true and what's not? People do, right? Society. Well, the people that are involved. There's a term that's entered the vernacular that it's my truth. Like we've personalized truth. Right. But there's still a greater truth than that, right? Two plus two is four. True or false? Well, in what I've learned, it's true. I'm sure there's someone who will show how it's not true. And they would be wrong because that's not true. But they'd say you were wrong. Right. But.

[16:29] There are some truths that are universal. And then there are some truths that are true for individuals. And it's not on me to tell you. You say it's lunchtime. I say it's dinnertime. Okay, well, good for you. Right. Right? But if you're going to come here and tell me that two plus two equals five, I don't care where we are. We're going to have a conversation about that because it's not. That is a lie. I think to your point, he's picking stupid, innocuous, made up things. Do you know what actually doesn't exist? Lunchtime. It's not even a thing. That's what I mean. Who defines truth? And he says truth is fluid. No, no. Truth is not fluid. Truth is truth. Truth changes. As we learn more, as we challenge it, right? That's the real purpose of science. Science is the constant pursuit of being proven wrong so that the truth can change. Yeah. You know, and for some people here, it might be lunchtime, dinnertime, or nighttime. Look, my wife works at night. So lunchtime for her, it's about one, two o'clock in the morning. Maybe I don't eat lunch at all. There is no lunchtime. Yeah.

[17:36] I have second breakfast and then I move on from there. No, after second breakfast breakfast is 11 Z's Jeff. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. It's not lunchtime. My task is to make you. Decide to believe differently oh that's what we're here for, when you were a soldier you fought the minbari the minbari were the enemy that was the truth and then one day someone said the minbari are no longer the enemy and that was the truth, you swore an oath to earth force because you believed in it that was the truth, now earth force is supposed to be the enemy now that is the truth he's not wrong the implications that he's putting there that's where it's wrong are wrong you embrace them you took them at you know you took one of them as your lover you whatever yeah because we were no longer yeah enemies, he's not overlaying time, right it's like there's truth and there's time and they both move right, a soldier accepts that the face of truth changes on a daily basis unless.

[18:42] You're rejecting everything that you said you stood for. Is that what you're doing? Again, we saw this a couple of weeks ago, but pulling out the idea of either or thinking that he's not allowing any middle ground, and these are extreme, slightly unrelated things. You know, about that sandwich, Captain, I've always felt that if you eat a little poison every day, you get used to it. Did he say that there's no poison in it? No.

[19:08] He just said it won't kill you. I ate it, and you're no good to be dead The contents of the sandwich will not kill you As I said, they want you alive for now, And now he's going to go home and watch the evening news Maybe watch the baseball game Read his kid a story, Have some meatloaf with the wife Exactly, just live his life.

[19:30] Captain, I've told you the truth from the beginning No, you haven't Now I'm telling you that this is safe, You've told me a truth. Sabotage. Now, just a minute. Willful destruction of public property, disobeying direct orders of superior officers, and the murder of 547 officers and crew on board the EAS Roanoke. I won't sign it. You will sign it. You will sign it, and you will read it aloud in full view of the public so they'll know that we have enforced your image or your signature. Question. Mm-hmm. I want us to go back to Comes the Inquisitor. What was the purpose of jack the ripper being there uh to test test delin and sheridan see if they were truly the ones, and and in doing what what did we say about that way back when because it wasn't just to see if they were the ones but maybe they needed maybe it was a test for themselves but what did he what did he get from them on that, like like how did he go through that at the with sheridan and delin would you was it like a you would you be willing to die for one when nobody else is looking i forget exactly what it was that he said yeah it's basically like if you fell, yeah and someone else took your place and this continued would that be okay like is this about you or is about the the cause essentially right, because what i'm what i'm wondering is is there something that happened then that actually is coming into effect now like he planted something was there something that sheridan learned about himself or.

[20:59] About whatever then that is actually I want to say helping him now, helping him resist, helping him not succumb to what this guy's saying because he knows who he is. He's more true. Cause I can, I can tell you this. There have been seasons in my life, particularly when I was younger, when I had no clue who I was or what I was about or where my worth came from, where my value was as a human being. I hadn't had no idea. I've learned along the way. I continue to learn, but I got to tell you, no, being able to stand in the confidence of who I am as a person, as a human being. Without having all this other stuff attached to me, that has been an absolute game changer. And I am more rooted and more solid and I can take more wind because of that sort of stuff. And what I'm wondering is, was there something that happened with Sheridan that made him stronger, made his roots grow deeper that he's able to do this? Because specifically of what happened in Comes the Inquisitor. I like the idea. Because of what he learned about himself. I don't know that there is. I don't think it is. Because very little actually happened to him. Right. His experience was watching things happen to Delenn and only for a pretty short amount of time. Right. Well, I even remember positing, though, what if this really was more about Sheridan than it was Delenn? You will walk through that door when you confess and not one second before.

[22:22] Okay, so we're to understand that this drowsy guy is completely a plant. Yes. He's an actor. In fact, JMS all right said, yes, the Drazi was working with the EA the whole time, rendering Sheridan's victory impotent. Now, I know you feel that they've won, but as long as you don't break inside, they can't win. You can refuse to surrender. You can refuse to be broken. You just have to say, no, I won't. One more time, then they can say, yes, you will. I love that so much. Sheridan needs to hear himself say that Like I think this is actually a mistake On the part of the interrogator Because Sheridan now gets a chance to say this out loud And verbalize it because it's what he's having to internalize And go through himself Mm-hmm.

[23:13] Picture him in the other room, just standing there. They start buzzing the lights, and he's just... And they're all laughing with each other. Exactly. Don't you want to be free? No, I like it here. Walk through that door. I like you a lot. I like hanging out with you. Feel the sun on your face again? Yes. Then sign it and speak. That's all. Then you can go.

[23:35] Then you'll kill me. I told you. I won't lie to you. No, they'll come for you eventually. They'll come in the night. It will be very quick.

[23:46] But until that time, you will have your freedom. So you have a choice. You're going to die. And Earth Alliance or Clark whatever is going to be the one that kills you. You can do it like this and wait until you don't matter anymore. Or you can do it now when it does matter. What do you do? What do I get to do in the meantime? Sounds like you have your freedom. You can do pretty much whatever. Which then tells me that the future is unwritten and who knows what can happen between now and then. You told me this is the deal, but deals get changed all the time. So, yeah, I'm going to take the longer lived option and keep looking. Hope. Yeah. You choose hope. But if it requires me to like sign this document and go through all these pieces and basically sabotage everything going on over there. No. Which that's the deal here. That's the deal. Sign the stuff, say the stuff, and then you can do whatever you want until we decide you don't matter anymore. Right, right. But as long as I hold hope that that's still going to happen because that's right and proper, then that is bigger than me. And I am expendable. So let's go. Let's do it. Do the thing. People who know that they're expendable can do crazy dangerous things. Yep. You think it's the people that are unexpendable, right? Like, oh, no, no. They get cloistered, right? Because you got to protect them. I mean, there's a whole series of expendable movies.

[25:12] Crazy ass people, man. Yeah, exactly. You know what makes that movie great? Because they're out there doing stupid stuff that we're all like, yeah. Because they're totally expendable.

[25:22] Which means it doesn't matter. If anything, they'll encourage you to travel so that more people can see you, as a symbol of the preeminent truth of our time. Kind of sounds like Hunger Games with a deal with the champions. That you cannot meet the system. I'm telling you the truth. Sign and speak. And you can leave here. It's really that simple. It's what he has to live for right there. Or who, it's not, she's not a what.

[26:03] Okay, for the first time in a while, bad graphic. Whatever that thing was on the table that he just pressed, that looked like a sticker set on my kid's little tyke's table. Yeah. Like that. Okay.

[26:21] He doesn't have spit to waste. Right. That's why he should have wiped his butt with it. I really wish you hadn't done that, Captain. the preeminent truth of our age is that you cannot fight the system, but if as you say the truth is fluid that the truth is subjective, then maybe you can fight the system oh there you go yep one person refuses to be broken refuses to bow down, but can you win every time i say, no that's a win and it turns out it takes an individual to fight the system captain john sheridan step one will you or will you not sign a confession and endorse it before a public hearing, no he's carrying himself differently he's confident in what he's doing right now it's great and what an awesome way to set this next scene up well because Now we're going to do the thing that we did with the Drazi guy, right? As a viewer, we are like, oh, he's building momentum. He's going to win. This is your last chance. Do you understand that this is your very last chance? Same words he said to the Drazi. Yep.

[27:44] I will say in this scene, like, I think I don't remember was them wearing the Earth Force uniform doing this. This whole time it's been a guy wearing his I'm going to the office thing and doing this, and it's like, oh, this is awful, this is evil, this is whatever. Seeing people in the Earth Force uniform coming in and doing this, like, that is a, like, that's like, oh, my God. It's really driving this home even more. Do you have any allergies or illnesses that I should know about? Are you currently taking any medication? Any trouble with your heart?

[28:14] You will answer my questions when they are asked. Resistance will be punished. Cooperation will be rewarded. I'm going to make a definitive answer, Jeff. You will answer my questions when they are asked. What we just saw for the first 41 and a half minutes of this episode was the first cycle. Yeah. That was going to be the second cycle. And here's the thing, because in that moment, he knew everything that had just happened. It's not like they erased his memory and then started over. when he first woke up he had no idea what was going yeah so i think i think what we witnessed was the first cycle moving now into the second cycle where they're just going to start it over yeah i see that and that drossy showing himself was was, a master stroke of everything you just saw was a lie all of that was what are we going to do now all fabricated, jms had a thing a fun thing to say on this one he said that so like you know you'd get all your stuff done, get all your looping and everything done you do an audio playback on top of the video to make sure it all works and he said during the initial audio playback uh crew members asked okay, what sadistic mother wrote this thing.

[29:29] Because the sadistic mother bleeper that signs your paychecks yeah i don't i i'm in a weird spot, where this is i mean it's such a brilliant episode and it's done to perfection and there's so much there's nothing bad to say about this nothing bad to say about it, and i feel like it hit me harder the first time one of the things that comes to mind for me we invoke the name of chain of command part two quite a bit around this but do you remember how that ended what picard said to troy, uh for a moment i thought i could actually see five lights yep not just he was gonna say it but he thought like he thought he could actually see it yeah, yeah and i feel like i don't think sheridan never started to break like even here when he's starting up again i almost get the sense where he's just like, again not you know like, we left on a victorious thing for sheridan, it hit me differently this time i don't know that it hit me less than can as you're as you're suggesting it didn't it didn't hit me less than it hit me it just hit me different this time around and i don't know if that has to do with recent events, that have happened since the last time we watched this episode uh we have had a huge push by our, uh immigration customs enforcement people that has resulted in the deaths of at least two citizens who were not targets of theirs.

[30:53] I don't know how many people that were targets of theirs have died at the hands of these raids, these immoral things. And what I'm left with thinking is this final conversation between the interrogator and Sheridan. And he says, basically, Sheridan's like, your truth is you can't fight the system. You know, and the truth is right now with that, that specific thing, but also the other stuff that's happening, there's a big – guys. I can't not talk about the politics of it because that's what this is, right? It feels very useless to fight the system. What am I going to do to fight the system? Yeah, I'm one person. And Sheridan says, basically, I'm going to paraphrase here, your truth, talking to the interrogators, you can't fight the system. But if the truth is fluid, then you can.

[31:40] How are you ever going to win? How are you going to win? Every time I say no. And it strikes me. They may beat him. They may poison him. They may dehydrate him. They may make him crap himself. They may make him throw up on himself. They may cut him. They may bruise him. They may scar him. They even eventually may kill him. But that doesn't mean you can't fight. Right. When I when I look at what citizens and communities have done to protect their neighbors for their sense of value for what they have, you can say right, wrong, indifferent, whatever we can have. That's a whole different conversation. But what we saw was we saw human beings. We saw citizens say, no, that is not OK here. And they stood up to fight a system. Some of them lost their lives. That the the idea for a system that seems unfightable that you can fight and every time you stand up and say nope not here you know and i can i can only imagine for any anybody, people like mira anybody who's lived in a place that's that's a lot more war-torn, than here people who have escaped regimes i know a few uh, not just here and and i mentioned living overseas. I knew people that escaped regimes. It's kind of like the starfish story.

[33:04] You go out on the starfish, there's millions of starfish. You pick one up, you throw it back in, pick another one up, throw it back in. Hey, what difference are you making? There's millions of these things. It makes a difference to this one. I'm not telling everybody. I'm not advocating for everybody to go out and protest and make a chain and use their cars to block the interstate. I'm not advocating for that. I'm not abdicating for disobedience. Okay, let me be clear. When something is wrong, when the system is wrong, it can be fought. And when we look for messages contained within a show, that is a big message that I take out of this. The courage of what can I do? Because I got to tell you, I'm left here. I am a, I am a cishet white dude, middle class Southern boy. Probably I'm going to get through all this and be just fine. Yeah. Right. What can I do though? The voters voted it in. It's what we voted for unless it was rigged.

[34:00] Right. You know what I mean? Truth is fluid. Right. Truth is fluid. Right, right, right. But it does give me hope. It gives me hope that things can be better. And we may not always – the individual may not win. But eventually we all do. I do love this other piece that he said. A war hero has credibility. He also says this. Truth is immaterial. They can sell it. It doesn't matter what actually happened. We'll sell it and we are watching that happen. The truth is it's really all about public perception. Exactly. Because what Clark needs is he needs the people of Earth, not the colonies, not Mars, not Babylon 5, not any of those people. He needs the people of Earth to get behind him. And if they can sell public perception, because when the public turns against you, because to go back to a conversation we had two episodes ago, Jeff, what gives a dictator its power? Right, the people. And until the people turn against you, as long as the people don't turn against you. You go. You maintain power.

[34:57] But once the people turn against you, bad, bad, bad stuff happens. It's good that you pulled that out because JMS says, Oh, the message is just that, that we all have to choose to resist from time to time. One individual can fight the system and we are all that individual at one time or another. As you were talking, the idea of a moral victory came to mind for me, right? So I may say no over and over and over small victory, small victory, moral victory, moral victory. and then they kill me, right? And they wanted my confession. They wanted me saying this stuff, but they'll doctor and manufacture up a whole thing and put it out. The moral victory is that they didn't get the thing they wanted.

[35:42] Right? And I think that there's value in that. It's small victories matter to quote, bring Russian to the conversation. One little victory. Like that is, that's all we're looking for is one little victory. And then the next little victory and the next little victory. The thing about- Literally what Sheridan was just saying. Every time I say no. It's just a little victory, a little victory, a little victory. One and one and one. And this is the thing about fighting systems. Do you know what has happened to every single system that has ever existed? It's eventually toppled? Yep. Every single one has fallen apart. Every single one. Now, some of them didn't get better, right? Or they did and then they got worse because good systems have also all failed. I was going to say, some of them lasted longer than others. Yeah, yeah. But to have the idea, the understandable idea that I can't fight the system. I'm one person. I can't do it. We have millennia of people fighting systems and those systems. So good, Jeff. So good, Jeff. Yeah. So fight, fight. Yeah. When we watch this, I would add, pick your battles. There's that. Yes. Pick your battles. You don't have to do all of them. When we watched this the first time, a big thing we talked about was the.

[36:59] Evil is the dude who just shows up to work doing his job. And JMS talks about that as well. Somebody says to him, the interrogator looked like an ordinary person. He goes, exactly. It's the banal face of evil. You look at most of the guys who ran Treblinka or Bergen-Belsen, and they're largely ordinary looking guys. They could be accountants, repairmen, car salesmen. They are us. And this was designed to remind us of that. The evil mustache twirling villain is too easy and too far from the truth of it. And he goes on to say that it's not so much following orders, right? We talk about, oh, I was just following orders. We've heard that before applied to the military. But just this is more, I'm just doing my job. To the interrogator, he was just doing his job and doing it to the best of his ability. It's something it does. And then like you said while we were watching, he goes home to his wife and kids. He has dinner, sits out on the porch trying to forget what he does because he thinks he has to do it, assuming he even thinks about it at all. But it's the banality of evil.

[38:07] This to the, the, the thing that the people are the ones that give a dictator, the power dictators, one idiot. It's the people around him, the sequel fans around them. And I'm saying him. And I, I guess like, you know, yeah, I could say them, but I'm going to say him sequel fans around him. They help feed it, but it's the people, the functionaries who just show up to work every day. And they're like, Oh, I guess, I guess I do this thing now. Well, I mean, it's not just the interrogator. What about those guys that, that the six guys that came in to wheel them in and wheel them out? They're in uniform. Maybe they're actually earth force. Maybe they're not earth force and they're actually just dressing up. Could be that too. But yeah, you know what I mean? But let's, let's say they, they just show up. Hey, we got to go wheel this guy and we got to wheel them out. I, I could respect is not the right word, Jeff. I don't know what the right word is. I could accept it easier if those are people who are fully in, fully bought in and really agree. It's the ones who this is just what i gotta do i'm getting hey i'm getting paid extra 50 credits a week huh am i right a little band on my arm the ones who, as you say just show up and a lot of it too this is i would, i i want to go back to hope and fighting the system.

[39:21] I work for a government and a very very large government entity and, uh there have been times when things have come across my desk that I fundamentally disagree with, not to the extent of anything like this, but things have come across. And I have to ask myself that question, like, is this just me doing my job and it's fine and it's really not impact? I'm just compromising some of my own values, but I'm not really perpetuating harm or am I compromising my values and causing harm? And there have been times for both, right? And so I have a phrase that I use for all the things I don't want to do at work. And that is, there's a reason they give me money to show up. If I was only doing cool stuff, I might do it for free. But there are some of us that can have those things come across our desk and we have the ability to say no.

[40:13] It's a four-letter word to some people, but I'm going to use it. I have the privilege of being able to say no and not just getting axed. At a minimum, me saying no will prompt a conversation. At most, I can stop the thing from happening.

[40:29] I follow a thing and actually it's one of my favorite things I've ever done in my life. I was interviewed for a podcast and the title for it was the Peter Parker Principle of Privilege. Yeah. With great privilege comes great responsibility. What I know is there are people that are watching us or listening to us right now who cannot say no to the thing that comes across their desk. They cannot. And that's the thing, like the evil, the banality of what has happened. We can't say no, because if we do, we're going to lose our health insurance, right? And you got kids. Look, I mean, it's whatever is Mel Gibson's character in The Patriot. I don't have the luxury of having morals. I got kids. Exactly. You know? Yeah. So they cannot. But there are some of us. There's a lot of us. Can and use it to your earlier point choose your battles, but choose them and fight them systems can be changed and again every, every system that has ever existed has changed, end of soapbox there's so much that could be taken out of this and applied i mean this could have been applied eight years ago 12 years ago go go various people you know what i mean and and i think we would be.

[41:45] Remiss if we didn't acknowledge that there are people on the other side who feel the other way. There are people on Clark's side who genuinely agree with him and think that, they are doing it because they love their world. They love their people.

[42:01] And that is the enemy. Those Mimbari who try to come over and annihilate us, they are still the enemy and this is wrong. And they really, really believe that. We are truly helping these people that are victims of Minbari War Syndrome or who have been influenced. We are benevolent. But there's also – but these people who would come in and now have us join with them and have us mate with them and have us do that, that is the – like there are people that that's there. And for them, there is a fighting of the system on their side. The crazy thing is, is all of this applies to them too. Now, if it sounds like I'm justifying something else, I'm not. No. What I'm saying is this exists on both sides. And the thing is, I think in the end, am I, am I naive enough to believe that whatever is good, there is a universal good out there. I believe there is a universal moral truth. I think no matter where you go, it is wrong to kill babies. Yes. Like, I don't care who you are. You're not going to justify that one for me. You know? And it's wrong to rape anybody. Period. You can't justify that. There are certain moral truths that are good and right out there. And I am naive enough to believe that in the end, in the end, good will win.

[43:20] Evil may be winning right now, but in the end, good will win. I agree. Wholeheartedly. Probably watched too much Disney as a kid. It's the hope too much disney now as an adult to be honest with you it's the hope that we need you know it's the hope that things are going to be better in the future jeff and that's the message and i think you know what find yourself on here's the thing too good will prevail in the end, yeah if we can hold on to the hope that things will be better in the future not naively right but just knowing like, i have to believe during this this interrogation this torture that sheridan was going through, we we saw it he had hope that hope was delen standing there who i think was that was probably from promo shots i doubt they had her come in for that, but i would i would hope that was not hey just stand and go through all that yeah don't even make a facial expression just stand here but with hope he was able to persist and continue he still may end up getting killed right, but it's gonna be a lot harder for them to kill him because he has hope well jeff there's so much more, we could just keep going on and on and on about with this. But I think we have reached a point where we have to look at this episode and we have to place it in our 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking of Babylon five for the second time season four, you know, Jeff.

[44:38] There are so many best episodes of the Babylon five and what determines the best episode is really what criteria are you using right now in this moment? And you have to determine, you have to look at this and you've got to look at episodes like, I don't know, into the fire and determine which one is better. Which one's one and which one's two and by which criteria are you judging those? So Jeff, I'm going to ask you to place this in our 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking of Babylon five season four, the second time, where's this one going? There's a type of person that this, this episode would never work for. None of the brilliance would be lost upon them. Maybe the story would hit them, but this is an episode where I think you have to have an appreciation for the art of filmmaking to true. And not just that, but also like an episode like this could come out on a streaming platform today and be like, Oh, okay. It would have been more graphic or whatever, But to put this out on television with sponsors and all the pressure that comes with that, like someone who understands all of those things. Me, I appreciate filmmaking. I like the later seasons of the bear where they get all super artsy fartsy around stuff. I think it's great. I love it. So I love this. We've just talked for quite a long time about just the, not just the brilliance of it, but the questions it poses, the hope that it provides.

[46:03] And I'm going to be really honest I knew before we hit play where I was going to rank this one, I just needed it to prove me wrong and it did not prove me wrong Brent this is the best episode of Babylon 5, along with all the other ones that are the best in this context and how we're weighing it now it is the number two episode of season four I feel like that's correct.

[46:29] That's objectively correct. Objectively correct. Yeah. I feel like that is absolutely correct. Somebody said it at the beginning of this episode. And I'm sorry. It was one of our council chamber members who are here. This is an episode that is so good. And I would be okay if I never watched this episode ever again. There's a couple Babylon five episodes like that. It's a Schindler. It's a Schindler's list type type episode. It's so good. Everybody should watch this episode and you should watch this episode multiple times. And I'm really okay. If I like, you know what? You know, what's interesting about this episode though, is this episode really is not that hard for me to watch. I agree. There are some episodes that are gut wrenching hard to watch. Frankly, chain of command is one of those. Like, I don't want to see that. I don't want to have those visuals. There was nothing that was a visual in this episode that I don't want to have etched into my, into my brain. They were implied. They were never shown. It was more psychological than it was anything else. That said, I watch it. It's exhausting. I am personally involved and invested. Like it is a draining episode to watch. Well, Jeff, here's the good news. Oh, there's good news. There's hope. Here's the hope. We are through with this episode. And now we get to go on to brighter, sunnier, happier episodes because the next episode, Jeff.

[47:46] The next episode is called the very happy title Between the Darkness and the Light. Jeff, do you remember what you thought of this episode? I do. And I love it Between the Darkness and the Light because it's a lyric from the Rush song Double Agent of their 93 record counterparts. And I like the song quite a bit. I remember this was such a fun. I mean, this had so much fun to it, right? This is them going to do the rescue, right? Isn't it? It's the rescue. Yeah, it's the rescue. We get Lita. We get Franklin. when we get the the girl you know what this is it's it's a it's a heist episode exactly the object they're heisting happens to be john sheridan but it's a heist episode not not only that but you.

[48:31] We get a pain again. We do. Like we get that. We get the, there's the person who helps them navigate the tunnels who was one of the, she's a guest star in season one of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It was amazing. Like I, there is a lot in this episode that I remember with tremendous fondness. What do you remember about it? I don't remember being fond of the, I don't remember this being a fun episode. I do. And it probably isn't at all. It's probably like super dark and horrible, but I'm like. I really hope it is. I really hope it is because I don't remember. Here's what I remember the opening bit with him, like enjoying things. And then all of a sudden we, we realized like, no, this is all in his head. Like they're messing with his head. I remember Garibaldi going in. I remember the, the blood coming through his jacket.

[49:19] I do. I remember it being the, it's the rescue of John Sheridan really is, is where we are. Yeah. But I don't necessarily remember it being fun. And I hope it is. I hope it is. get you some fun after this right right uh because you know what episode comes after this next one i do it's kind of a big deal episode, and then the episode after that like yeah like we're right here so getting sheridan back is is a must uh in a condensed season four because they got to wrap everything up and, bang bang bang stellar stellar stellar is what i remember coming up out yeah ben in the council chambers chat says that this uh.

[49:57] Between darkness and light feels like three episodes jammed into one. And I think for that exact reason, like, oh, I gotta get this stuff in. Go, go, go. And what's great about that is we're going to get three episodes in the time and space and for the cost of one episode. That's going to happen right next, right here next week. So make sure you're subscribed, rate, comment, review, do all that cool stuff. You do not want to miss this episode. If you want to see the full unedited version of what we just watched, because there's quite a bit that did not make it to the final edit, that's going to be on our Patreon page. There's links where all the links go. Click that and check it out. If you want to help out the show in any way uh the best way to do so is to share this show with somebody uh someone who wants to dive into, uh i don't know maybe the end of the earth civil war that we're coming up on or anything else it would mean the world to us if you would share this show uh so with that brent, uh i'm jeff that's brent allen and we yes brent what's going on you know i'm really proud of jms joe you're watching this you watch every episode he does Really proud of you in this one, man. Really proud of you. Why, why are you proud of him? Well, think about it, Jeff here. He had a whole episode about torture. He even had somebody killed. I'll be at fake killed, but so I had somebody killed. And yet in the middle of all of that, no kids were harmed in the making of this episode. For crying out loud. I mean, we're not some, some deep space franchise. The station is about something.