The Deconstruction of Falling Stars | For the Second Time

[0:52] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice. voice. But don't worry. We are still searching for those sci-fi messages that we find in this series. And oh boy, this one's going to have a few. I can guarantee you. We're looking for things that hold up a mirror to society. Give us hope. This might be my favorite one. And it's the one I find we actually find the least of. Give us hope that things can be better in the future. Right. You know, or they just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, that being said to everyone out there who was within the sound of my voice, if you have not watch Babylon five all the way through, not just to this episode, but all the way through for yourself, this is your time to press pause on this particular episode and go finish the series and then come back. If you want a full spoiler free, you can go back to Babylon five for the first time. Just scroll up in the feed. Jeff and I have a whole thing there. That's completely spoiler free because you don't want to be spoiled because from this point forward, Jeff and I have full permission and we can and will talk about anything from any point in the timeline, be it.

[2:14] Canon, extra canon, in-universe, out-of-universe, no matter where we got it from, we are at full liberty to discuss everything having to do with this episode. That's what the second time really is all about. So if you have not seen this.

[2:31] And you continue from this point on, then just understand And you have been warned. My warning is sincere. Ignore it at your own peril. Brent, this week we're closing out the fourth season of Babylon 5 by watching the deconstruction of falling stars. When we watched this series for the first time, like you just talked about, we played a game where we would predict what the next episode was going to be about based only on the title. What did you predict this was going to be about?

[3:00] I thought basically it was going to be like a clip show because what we knew, was they had filmed Sleeping in Light. They took it and just said, we're going to put this on the shelf for a year. And they had to very quickly come up with a new episode because of the whole P10 went out of business and then they got picked up by Turner. So basically I thought this was going to be a deconstruction of the show. Partly going over to Turner, you're going to be on a new network.

[3:31] So that's kind of what I thought it would be. It's just basically a clip show of the show, just deconstructing the whole show, showing it for what it is. So a clip show that's going to have clips in it. A clip show that is a clip show is what I said. How about you, Jeff? What'd you say? I figured this was going to be like the last episode of Caprica where they were like, Hey, so we had all these cool ideas and you're not going to let us finish the series. So here's a taste of what was to come. Not quite. Not quite. Either one of us. But just put them together. Well, my, it was a clip show, just not of what happened, but of what will happen. It's we've had clip shows that aren't clip shows. This is a clip show that is a clip show of the future. Of stuff that hasn't happened, right? It's all new stuff. There are no normal clip shows in Babylon 5. No, no, there's really not. Are you curious to see what we actually thought of this episode the first time around? I really am. All right, let's check it out. All right. Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time. The Deconstruction of Falling Stars.

[4:33] I love so many parts of this episode. You remember Infection? That episode finally really paid off. One day the sun will stop shining and everything will be gone. Marilyn Monroe, Elvis Presley. Unless we went to the stars, everything we did on Earth would be for nothing. None of it will matter unless we go to the stars. And what I love about this episode is we went to the stars, the sun blew up, and now our legacy is going to last well beyond a million years. Sinclair called this an infection. Love that. I'm going to read you my note exactly as I wrote it.

[5:15] WTF was this episode. Talk about pissing all over the previous episode. Coming off of last week's episode, like, that should have just been the end. I just ultimately don't understand why this episode exists. Like, that's like, why wasn't Rising Star the last episode of the season? It just doesn't make any sense to me. I wonder if there's a real world reason for why this happened. I have no idea where they go from here to kick off a whole new season. And I don't, wow, this sounds worse than I mean it, but I'm having a really hard time getting excited about it. Oh, Jeff. Oh, this is going to make me a villain. Oh, but I'm going to say it anyway because it's my job here. I'm at a spot where I don't know that I care about the fifth season. Wow. Okay. Like, I do because it's part of canon and I want to see more Babylon 5. Yeah. But I kind of like... I don't care. Like.

[6:20] The stakes don't feel there. I have a morbid curiosity. It's what it is now. It's just like, what do you got? Like, what do you do from here? I don't know. What do we have to look forward to here in season five? Yeah, yeah. And with that, season four comes to a close. Wow, we had no idea what was going on. I could have sworn we went into this understanding the real world situation and, As to why this episode exists. I remember that also. Well, I don't understand. So, okay. Our own Mandela effect right there. Right. You know, but I kind of agree with me. Actually, I still agree with me. Season five, I kind of don't care. Now, as a person who's seen it before, and I know what comes, especially once the whole Byron gig is done.

[7:17] I know how incredible season five turns out to be. I know because of crusade, how much you and I grow to love Lockley. And we're so glad that she becomes a part of the cast. Although I don't think there's a single person that had been like, if we could have kept Claudia for, for the fifth season, we would have done that. Right. Much rather had that. And, and that's no shame or no shade at Tracy, Tracy Scoggins. That's no shade at Tracy at all. We just would have all preferred to stay with, with Ivanova. But we're really glad that we, that we got her. It's almost like season five is like a one season spinoff of Babylon five, like Babylon five proper is like seasons one through four. And then you have season five, which is because the story wrapped like that. And that's what I'm saying. Like there's the story is done. He had to restart the story and then bring it to a close all in one season. So really season five does very and Stephen five feels very substantively different. Um i feel like i can i it would you agree with that does season five feel substantive will be different than the first four episodes it really does and i think there's a lot of reasons why you know i mean the production world stuff the story stuff what's interesting normally i save the stuff that we hear from the great maker himself till the episode, but this kind of blew my mind when i read this one thing okay this episode was always part of the plan.

[8:41] This was supposed to be the first episode of season five. Okay, now hold on. Pause. Because the last episode of season four was supposed to be intersections in real time.

[8:51] So we were supposed to go from intersections in real time season break. And then this episode apparently. Whoa. So they didn't just cobble this episode together at the last minute. This was, he at least had a, he might not have had a script written for it, but he, he at least had the idea, the idea, the synopsis, right? That the episode beats planned out. He says, uh, okay. He says that, so the plan was to close out, you know, 422, and then this was going to be 501. He says to make the change, to shift and everything, and to get it in the story beats it needed to be in. Normally, they have like three months or so between seasons to get everything put together. But he had six weeks in this case. They had to edit the last four seasons, or edit the last four episodes of season four. They had to edit the first two movies, oversee the CGI final mixes on all those. And he had to write no less than four episodes all in six weeks. And those are episodes that he lost his notes for. Yep. Had to recreate them. Wow.

[9:55] At the time, he was a guest of honor at WonderCon, and he wasn't scheduled for any panels. So even though he was the guest of honor, he spent the entire time in his hotel room writing. But why don't we go watch this episode? Let's do it. That's what we're going to do right now is watch the episode. We're going to bring it up, watch it. Brent and I will comment on it, react to it, pull out messages in real time with you standing right alongside us. It's going to be fantastic. If you're watching us on YouTube, you're going to see the edited version of that, kind of the reaction video style of editing. The full and unedited version is available for you on our Patreon page, which is at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're joining us on the audio podcast, no worries. You're going to get all of it in its glory. We have not forgotten you. You'll catch all the conversations that happen. During all the pauses that Jeff and I will do throughout the course of this episode, and then obviously you'll get all the conversations that we have on the backside. So, Jeff, let's take a watch for the second time on the deconstruction of falling stars. Let's go. Accessing file.

[11:02] When Clark's gone, Earth and Mars are free. They want to celebrate. What about Proxima 3? They see us as a symbol of that. Not important. They should be applauding themselves, not us. We did it together. I love that line. There's something immodest about it. That idea that we as a society want to have a person to applaud, right? We did this because of this person. We forget that we did this. What would that look like, I wonder? If something like in this case, instead of celebrating Sheridan and Babylon five and everything, the people of Mars, for example, number one, and all of her resistance that have been fighting for years, if they've stopped and applauded themselves instead of this hero. So I have a real world example of that in my own life. Okay. Now I want to make it clear. This is my example, not saying that this is ubiquitous to all humans. Okay. This is Brent's lived life. I happen to know you share a bit of this, Jeff, while that could well, what you just said there and what Dylan just said certainly could apply in the political world. Right. It's it's all of us, but we're going to venerate the one person at the top. Also, you're going to vilify the one person at the top or the other side, you know.

[12:15] But I think this is how cults get formed. Okay. Or at least cults of personality. You know, I know I was involved in a church for a decade where every – like it started very – communal makes it sound like it's already bad. Everything was very community-based, right? Right. And after a while, it really started all getting funneled and focused in on the one person because the one person was the draw. The one person was the name that went on the books. The one person was the name that went on the DVD cover or on the CD covers. The one person was the guy getting the radio interviews. The one person was the guy getting invited to speak at other conferences and stuff like that. And if we can exalt this one person, then that's going to draw more people. That was the thinking.

[13:06] But in reality, what made that work, what made it attractive in the first place, was us, was all of us, not the one. In fact, when it became focused on the one, it became quite repulsive and quite ugly. And I would dare say that also applies to politics. When it becomes focused on the one, it becomes quite repulsive and quite ugly. Continuity error caused by high energy. Correcting for error. Resetting. Do you wish to continue? Reloading sequence. God, if the future computer interface still looks like this, God help us. Right. The events of the last few weeks have been among the most remarkable in recent memory. It can be more than a little overwhelming. Okay. Real quick. I just want to establish this is what we would think of as current time. This is shortly after the events of Rising Star. I believe so. So what we know is happening is this dude in the future is viewing these historical records. This record is shortly after Rising Star, right? Okay. The only son of a career diplomat, Sheridan was an average but enthusiastic student. It's funny the pictures are in black and white in the 21st century.

[14:19] 23rd. Look at the hair. Was that his hair from the movie? Oh, it might have been. That was his picture from when he was like young Sheridan in the movie with his hair like buzzed up and everything. Right? Can he hold together this newborn alliance of competing, even mutually hostile, races? It's wild to think that, like, a couple days ago, essentially, they were like, this guy's got Minbari War Syndrome, and he's evil and horrible. Now they're like, what a... What a cool guy. He's awesome. Let's do a whole expose package on this guy. Look how cute he was as a kid. Now, there was obviously some sort of deal made there, which is how he got out of here. He's not wrong. I mean, call me old-fashioned, but that doesn't sound like the best qualification to run a major alliance. He's not wrong. Not the best qualification to run a major alliance. Right. Coming back from the dead might be.

[15:14] Actually, I don't even know that. I think we're generally agreed. Sheridan, probably not the best option to run the alliance, although he might be the only one who could run it right now. You know, very George Washington. Like nobody, nobody could have united us under a new constitution way back when with all the quarreling states like George Washington. That's the reason they chose him. Didn't make him the best choice. Didn't make him the best administrator or the best person to actually do the leading. Right. It's just he was the one who could make it happen to get us to get us started. I'd almost reframe that. It didn't make him the most qualified, but it did make him the best choice. Fair. Yeah. And I think not trying to compare Sheridan to George Washington, letting Sheridan be his own person. But in that case, like Sheridan may not be the most qualified, but he's probably the best choice to get it going. On his own ships and you're calling me irrational. You know, it strikes me of the three, this guy might actually have the most knowledge about what it actually takes to do the task of what's going to be required of a president of an interstellar Alliance. I feel like the other two are the voice of the plot, right? So John Sheridan is the right choice because he's on the DVD cover. He's going to be in season five, like all these reasons. That's the, that's the reality of it in a real world situation. Yeah. This guy is correct. You know what? He's a podcaster before podcasters were born.

[16:44] He's the guy who sits in our chair and watches Star Trek and goes, there's no way data should still be on the bridge. There's no way Worf shouldn't have been bounced from Starfleet 15 times over. There's no way Dillon should be the one giving the speech about the ISA. Exactly. He is us just before it happens. I think you talked a couple of weeks ago, God, maybe a month or so ago about assigning motive. And that's really what this whole thing is. And I think your example of a movie is so perfect because those people who do that murder content before it's even created. What could be great doesn't get a fair shake. And that's I think this is the same thing, even if this is only a year after or it's a week is it's not important. And no one knows what the Interstellar Alliance even is, including the people in the Interstellar Alliance. And here they are talking about who's qualified to run it, what it's going to do, all these things. This is clearly modeled on, you know, the 90s, the 80s and 90s. You know, it's got a bunch of political commentators together and talking head through this thing. Put this in the 80s, the 90s, put it today. It's the same thing. It's a bunch of people. I like your example of podcasters, but it's a bunch of people not actually involved, just kind of watching and going, you know, what's definitively correct other than Jeff and Brent's ranking of all the episodes throughout the series. The other thing that's objectively correct is what I have to say about this thing that no one knows anything about.

[18:13] And then so many people make their political entertainment, all their opinions and choices based on. This from where i sit they've already made a difference the senate has been debating what to do about mars for years and did nothing it took sharing can we add this guy to the list you know the list the list the list which features greats like leona kemer right, and ben zane well brent i'm not sure that that's a thing that we could add without really grabbing our ears for no good reason while i'm talking like this well i i've gotta i've gotta hear you over there, i mean i'm already answering what you said but now i'm going to listen.

[18:59] I'm having a rough time with him i gotta be honest with you the other two i'm okay with this guy, he's got that anchor thing going on i'm kind of okay but yeah i'm having a rough time with the dude in the middle he's even got the rolling the r's occasionally that pops in it's like what are you this isn't star trek guy like power down he's power hungry and he's unprepared and that is a dangerous combination record ends autoplay feature engaged, loading next sequence date 100 years from first time period stand by, Let's put this in context. Who was alive 80 years ago for us? Who was a president 80 years ago? That would have been the 1940s. FDR.

[19:37] We're talking FDR and Eisenhower, right? Truman. But when you think about it, people who were held up, venerated, and I'll say with FDR specifically, has been a real campaign in semi-recent years of, hey, turns out he wasn't such a great guy, right? Right? Right. Well, I mean, like I say, we we are doing that. Well, there's a large segment of the population is doing that even now with our own historical figures. The publicity machine for the Alliance would have you believe that somehow all this came about because of what a few people did. But the individual really cannot affect change as an act of will. They did not do. They allowed others to do. She's not wrong. And she's so true. And we have been talking about this a lot recently, John, about the great villains, even in recent history. They can't do what they do without a bunch of other people around them doing it for them. They really have very little, but they really can't. All they can do is influence. It takes everybody else around them doing it.

[20:40] Just standing by. It's also contrary to what we talked about just a few episodes ago, where JMS's stated message was, I think this was in intersections in real time, might've been, either way, it just takes one person. One person can make a difference. We are here to fight the system, right? Every day we have to fight the system and it's an individual effort that we do that. So I feel like she's put here very intentionally because it is true and it is contrary to the message that JMS is trying to put forward, that JMS is trying to put forward, that Tolkien was trying to put forward, so many others that even the smallest of us can make the biggest of differences. Well, and let's take a moment and acknowledge what we're not acknowledging just yet. It wasn't just Sheridan who did all of this, or Delenn, or even Londo or Jakar.

[21:25] It was that Rekeri ambassador we know nothing about. He did so much. It was the Drazi. It was the game. It was the pick another race. Don't say Mark Abbe. No, they did. Don't say Mark Abbe. They did their part. They did their part. But it's the teepsicles, right? I mean, it was, there were so many. And we just, in this episode, had Dylan stating they should be applauding themselves. Yeah. So she, I mean, Dylan and this lady right here and the other dude from the last segment are really all in agreement. It's not just them. We're going to put the spotlight on them. We're going to focus everything towards them, but it's really not just them. I like what Becky says over here. says she's not wrong but the her vast storehouses of smug make her unbearable not wrong but amen amen i mean sheridan and delen we all have a profound psychological need to believe in heroes the shining knight on the white horse if they don't exist we create them.

[22:24] Now, this guy is going too far to the other side. Right. Where he's saying, yeah, they really did nothing. He's kind of saying what she said. Other people are pouring stuff in, but they really did nothing. And that's, we know that that's because we've watched it and we will watch it. That's too, they very much are instrumental in pushing stuff forward. Right. And again, let's look back at our heroes of the past. Even 80 years ago, we're kind of starting to vilify them. Right. Yeah. Like that's – and I wouldn't say he's even necessarily vilifying him as much as he's just unimportanting them. Well, I don't know if it's a good, bad thing. It's a thing, and I think it's relevant. I think that there is wisdom.

[23:07] There's wisdom in spreading the spotlight that we have on one person. This person did these things, but all these other people also did these things. It's not – And the thing is you can do that without taking away from – And that's the thing. Like, it's if this guy gets the it's not a it's not a pie, right, where there's only so much attention we can give to one person. No, actually, you can we can give a lot of attention to this person, but we can also talk about other people for a while, too, without having to take something. We don't have to take it away from him. Exactly. To give to somebody else. We can just talk about other people now. Right. It's just like interpersonal relationships. I don't have to diminish you to make me better. I can just make everyone better.

[23:49] I do like what Ben says in our in our council chamber chat. By the way, our council chamber is joining us for all of the recordings that we have here. So thank you so much to our council chamber teams. We love having you guys here. You guys add so much to our show. And Ben says they're deconstructing the great man theory. Yep. That's exactly what we're watching happen. So it starts with veneration. Then... Okay, let's see if he can do it. Let's see if he has a chance. Then, eh, he really wasn't as great as we think he was. All right, let's see where we go. It was only the force of history that saved the situation from collapsing of its own weight after so many people died in its first year of operation and the incident concerning their son. Well, I don't want to get off the track. All of those things, to me, promise what we would see in season five. I agree. So many people dying, thing that happened with their son. Well, you can't lay the blame for all that at their feet. Of course you can. Well, as one example, they had no business creating a colony of telepaths on Babylon 5. Having it both ways.

[24:45] They didn't do anything. There's nothing that all these two did. Now look at all the stuff they did wrong. All the blame lands on them, squarely. And by the way, I said a minute ago, they're not vilifying them. Now they're starting to vilify them. It's literally the progression of it all, or regression of it all. That one event may have done much to precipitate the telepath war and... You can't pick one incident and say that. By the way, oh, my gosh, what she just says here tells us specifically that what we see in season five is not the telepath war. Correct. We were so like the first time we went through, we were like, this is the telepath war. They kept talking about it. Is this the time? This is not really much of a war. Is this the telepath war? Not the telepath war. She tells us. The show tells us. Why did we miss that? We wanted to see the thing. Crusade even went a step further and downgraded it to the telepath conflict.

[25:36] Right, right. But she says this is what precipitated or may have precipitated the telepath war. Well, I'm not debating that, but you can see it in his attitude, the way he addresses the terrorists. That coldness is emblematic of his personality. Wow. He was power hungry. It's as simple as that. And he never let anything get in his way. Well, everyone knows Minbari live a long time, but not that long. I think the record is 120 years, 140. Forget it. There's a joke that's out there of if you wear a suit, carry a clipboard and walk with confidence, you can go anywhere. No one will question you. There's a lot of truth to that. But the power of confidence.

[26:17] What this guy is making declarative statements as if they are just accepted fact. This is how misinformation is not only spread, but it's like codified for people. Hey, this person said it and like they really meant it. They couldn't be wrong. So like at this point, I'm going to walk out of this being like there's no possible way. I mean, Bari can live 140 years. Well, and also to this, the people who already want to believe that Sheridan and the land actually were not good people and were really the political enemies and all of that sort of stuff. They're going to hear what these people are saying. And they're going to eat up, see, see, we'll see. They're going to eat this up because it's that echo chamber that they keep rolling around in, right? Which you and I and the real-time viewers are like, nah, it's not really, you're... And the thing is, is they might be speaking of the facts correctly, but their interpretation of the facts is way off. Their interpretation of motives way off. But the fact of what actually happened is not entirely wrong. Well, the best lie is one that has some truth buried in it. Sure. I've just heard we've had a security breach in the building. We're going to.

[27:32] Oh, it's catering. They have brought some pie. Right. A little humble pie. There's so much more we'd like to ask you. Oh, yeah. Now we're going to be cool to you. So much more we'd like to know. You do not wish to know anything. I love the acting by this, I mean, Mira Furlan, of course, but also this professor over here. Because she's gone from, to assign anything to the individual is horrible and awful, to just absolute awe and worship on her face. Like, oh, the individual. Oh, my God. Just the hypocrisy is exposed so clearly. Of course we would expect you to say that. We... He tried saying it to her face. Do you want her?

[28:19] Although she's like i don't even say anything you know record ends autoplay feature engaged loading next sequence date 500 years from first time period stand by first first few days we're gonna give him a chance we're gonna see, venerate him whatever and maybe not so much we'll see yeah there's no way he really has what it takes to do this, there's been a hundred years of peace Holy crap. He did it. They did it. It really wasn't him. It was everybody else. But all the stuff that went wrong, that's all him. That's all his fault. And by the way, this is all just PR. We don't really believe anything that they're saying. There's absolutely nothing that's true about this. Oh, shoot. Dylan is here. Well, you really can't. Oh, okay. I'm going to shut up now. Okay. So that's where we are 80 years later.

[29:08] He's an arrogant, pompous fool who's built a myth around himself. A megalomaniac. Megalomaniac, right? But presumably, there are still people probably like the host of this particular show and lots of other people out there in society that still think quite highly of Sheridan, right? Okay. So 500 years into the future, 400 years after this particular moment, right? So now we're talking about looking back. What was 400 years ago, Jeff? That would be 1626. Okay. Okay, so we're talking about Jamestown, Roanoke, a little bit after that, but that's kind of really where we're talking about, Salem, that sort of time period. 2, January 27, 62. All monitors set to record mode. Initiating environmental hologram. Location 2C. Sequence start. One thing I love about Babylon 5 is it's just light brush of subtlety that it uses all the time with its metaphors. Look at that emblem he's wearing. Like, oh my God. It does not get more clear than that.

[30:16] It just looks like they bastardized the Flash. Oh, it's SS. Oh, I didn't even notice. I didn't even look at a letter for that. I was just seeing two lightning bolts, man. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He's wearing the reason that Kiss, the band Kiss, has a different logo in Germany than they do in the rest of the world. Also, love him calling it Polit. There's so much Orwellian language just ripped from 1984 through this whole thing. Let's be fair. 500 years into the future, is it possible that the interstellar alliance has grown, morphed, changed to a point where it is actually no longer what's best for Earth? Absolutely possible, yeah. Okay. But to sit back and go, what we're going to do is we're now going to vilify the entire thing. Yep. That's wrong. ...veered by pro sector, thereby legitimizing current government policies. Use that to justify what you're doing now. Phase two, designed to help... Designed as propaganda to justify your break from the interstellar alliance.

[31:19] He's like, I'll break the fourth wall a little bit here. Yeah. Good facts. As opposed to real facts. Good facts versus real facts.

[31:28] Good facts versus real facts. Such a thing. Such a thing that we deal with exactly today. Right? There's the, to use the language of Babylon 5, there's what actually happened, but that's inconvenient. So here are the better, here's the better version of what happened. Well, but not only that, here are the facts that our people want to hear because they're predisposed to think this way. So let's give them the thing that proves what they want to believe. Right. Because whatever's happened in the last 400 years, we don't like this thing anymore. Right. It's gone bad. And maybe it never was good in the first place. It really wasn't ever good in the first place. Let's go back and prove that. Right. What's the real one? The real fact, not the good fact. Yeah. You said it was good and real. What's real? To expand. The Rangers and the Alliance prove a hindrance to our plans. Laban's Brom. And the blood of your children, we will blaze a path across the galaxy. Box later's great. If we cannot take by force, we will win. This makes me want to mirror Babylon 5 episode. And in the end, we will bury you. If a billion must die to ensure the continuance of our empire, then so be it. This evil goes to 11. In an attempt to create a genetic crossbreed that will be compliant to the needs of the Alliance. So now we're completely making stuff up.

[32:51] Children, of course.

[32:57] Franklin is the stand-in for JMS right now. He's like... Even Edgar's had more compassion than Franklin. Mirror Franklin. Hold while I make notes on this for InfoSpeak Division. So, Daniel, right? Here he goes. Danny? Can I call you Danny? Oh, right. Sorry. I forgot. When Garibaldi's on, he's incredible. Record ends. Autoplay feature engaged. Loading next sequence. Date 1,000 years from first time. Okay, so in the 500-year one, what we see is not necessarily a representation of all of society. But we see somebody who has a political agenda and a political aim who is trying to make them the enemy. And so we're going to we're going to twist facts. We're going to invent facts. We're going to gaslight people. We're going to know that's that that wasn't really violence. That that wasn't attacks. That was whatever, you know, we're going to gaslight people into all of that for the sake. Like, you know, what do you do when you need to unite people? Give them a common enemy. Right? Yeah. So we're trying to make that the enemy. We're going to make them people over there. We're going to turn that because that's not of Earth, right? That's still, that's something different, you know? And while the Garibaldi hologram might have gotten the upper hand this particular time.

[34:21] We know it's about to go wacky. Right? It's interesting to me, too. We brought in a quote not too long ago, but the idea that history doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it does rhyme. Because in a real way, this is exactly what the Clark regime did. Just, you know, reinvent and vilify and change the story around the Minbari War and all the different things that had happened. We have different ways of doing it now. The scale is bigger. You know, our morals have gotten a little looser than they were back 500 years ago. But really, this is just a repeat of what happened with Clark, and which was a repeat of what has happened so many times throughout our history. Accessing records for date 1,000 years from initial scanning date. Stand by. Oh, surprised it all still works after this long. Brother Alwyn. Better get to my report. Start, follow, track systems. We all love this guy. Totally. So we have the guy that we have in the column of Benzane and William Kimmerer. Yeah, yeah. Is this the guy that we're talking like... I mean, he doesn't necessarily have the gravitas that David Miller does. It's rather late. Yes, I know, I know, but... He elevates. I really had to talk to you, Brother Alwyn.

[35:40] So it would seem. I am having a crisis of faith. That again our request for recognition has been turned down yet again by rome yes i see a better rationale for the vow of silence i've never heard is it true.

[36:00] The ways of rome are like unto god they are mysterious and sometimes they transcend understanding, They confess to an inability to see the wisdom of our mission, to keep alive the knowledge of the past, the knowledge that would have been lost forever after the Great Vern 500 years ago. Science and technology?

[36:24] It's not really their calling, but it is ours. This is brilliantly shown, demonstrated. We've talked so many times about how JMS not only treats religion with a certain respect that's unexpected, you know, for someone with his belief system, but also he's able to expose, I would say expose, but he's able to show kind of the reality in a lot of things tied to religion in really creative ways. So the Catholic Church is very fascinating in that it is one of the primary suppressors of knowledge, historical accuracy, advancement, all those things. While at the same time, it is one of the foremost institutions that encourages scientific discovery, advancement, and preservation of historical records. all at the same time. So many scientific theories, right? Because we don't know truly anything, right? Science is the constant pursuit of being proven wrong.

[37:27] But so many scientific theories that we accept today were the result of Catholic research, the monks, the Jesuits specifically. And what I love here is you have the establishment, they're calling Rome right here, and they're never explicitly, I don't think they ever explicitly say Catholic, but they're saying Rome. Rome is the suppressor of these things. Oh, we're just going to let this be thing, whatever. Then you've got this rogue order over here, Jesuits, that are like, no, we're going to advance. We're going to do these things. And the fact that there is a schism between the two, I think, is pretty profound. I don't know if JMS meant anything in this writing, but I think it's freaking brilliant. With that, someone was asking if this religious order is a direct descendant of Brother Theo's order on Babylon 5. JMS in classic JMS fashion said, well, it's totally possible. And Theo is only awaiting a story worth bringing him in for.

[38:31] And if the truth really does lie in the stars, then how will we ever know the truth? Look at the others. Blessed Sheridan. Blessed Sheridan. Is it knowing the truth? Is it finding that truth? Or is it the pursuit of the truth that really matters? About all of the above, you know? Yeah. Finding it matters. The truth itself is what you're seeking. That also matters. But you gain so much from the journey and the pursuit, right? In fact, in many ways, you say that's how you come about the truth is through the pursuit. I said that the Anlashak, the Rangers, would come again to the Earth in her, greatest need. Anlashak, baby Anlashak. And rebuild what was once the cradle of Sheridan and the Alliance. We started this with people questioning, do we give Sheridan a chance? Is he whatever? We move forward to, this guy sucks. He's a megalomaniac and awful. And then we went and deconstructed the rest. Now we've come to a point of he is blessed Sheridan, assumed bodily into heaven itself.

[39:42] Quite the path and journey. I cannot help you, Brother Michael.

[39:47] That is what faith is for. Faith sustains us in the hour when reason tells us that we cannot continue. Then why were we born able to reason? Isn't if reason's useless? Not useless, but it's also not enough. Faith and reason are the shoes on your feet. You can travel further with both than you can with just one. Wow. If you must have reason for an answer, then consider this.

[40:13] If today the rangers came back to Earth from their place in the heavens, you would not know about it. They would come in secret and move around us and help us, and we wouldn't even know they were here. Because the secret that they bring is feared by people who still blame science for the Great Burn. He's talking to him the way that I talk to my daughter about Santa Claus. Yeah, you're right. But, you know, Katarina says, this is probably the most hopeful scene I can think of proving that what we aim for, what we long for might actually already be here waiting for us to be ready for it, to be ready for it. Yeah. Waiting for us to open our eyes and just see it for what it is to reach out and grab it. See for what it is, not what we want it to be. And here's the thing. Okay. You know, one of the things in the conversation that happens probably this year with my daughter is as we talk about Santa. Hey, parents, sensitive topic coming up here soon. If you have young ones in the car with you, you may want to giving a moment, giving a moment, giving a moment.

[41:20] You know, as we talk about the true nature of Santa Claus, and for those of you that have followed any time, Santa Claus is 100% real. I know because I am him. And the conversation will go, you have a – you know, Santa Claus exists as a spirit. It exists in you. And as long as you hold that alive in you, then Santa Claus is definitely real because you are. And now you have a choice for you to become a Santa Claus or not. Or you can be a Grinch, I'm not going to say that, but are you going to be Santa? Are you going to embody this? Is this how you're going to live? Is this what you're going to have inside? You get a choice. You get to choose it.

[41:59] Ben backs you up really well in here. I like it. He says the metaphor really works even more because Alwyn is a ranger and you are Santa. And here's the thing, just as I am one day going to offer to my daughter to also become, Alwyn is about to offer to brother Michael. I think Michael could become a ranger. These things he's thinking are going to come back from heaven. And, and actually it's not this thing that's coming back from heaven. It's him. We're here. It's already us. I'm a ranger because I'm a ranger. And if you want to be a ranger, you can be one too. It makes me think about, uh, you know, one of the things that people decry against religion is, you know what I mean? God doesn't do this and God doesn't do that. A couple, 10 years ago, my family suffered a pretty huge tragedy. Our house was flooded. It was devastating. It was awful.

[42:55] A lot of stuff. We were actually on the local news. We were discussed in the state legislature. It was a big, bad deal. But as people of faith, where's God? Where's God? God was every person that showed up to help us clean the mess, to fill the dumpster, to give us a place to sleep that had heat that worked, you know, or whatever. We are. We are God, essentially, you know, or the hand of God. And that's this, where Michael's like, oh, but this thing must come to us. And Alan's like, no, like, you're not ready for this yet, but we are this thing. Like, we're already it. I'm just going to continue preparing you to be it. That we surrender ourselves to the possibility of hope. With that, I am content. And I believe you will be as well. I believe you will be qualified for this also. What do you think? It's beautiful work.

[43:55] In case you didn't pick up on this, people, here it is. We will rebuild the Earth. Though it take us another 2,000 years. We live for the one, we die for the one. Record ends.

[44:10] Ben makes a fun note that this is all, all these things we're watching are essentially found footage, which is why we jumped from 500 years to 1,000 years. There was nothing to have footage of for 500 years. Fair. Right? Fair, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because it all got destroyed in the burn. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[44:28] Play feature complete. Stand by. And now we leave the cradle for the last time. And what we understand is the endless shock, or the Rangers, did rebuild the world however long it took them. And they rebuilt it so well, so good, that all of humanity ascended effectively. And this is the last man. Presumably, he's actually already ascended. He's just back doing a little cleanup work. Because he doesn't seem to go through an ascension process. He just sort of blimps, right? He's the one turning the light switch off. Right, right. He's the JMS at the end going, right? But he's doing that for humanity as they ascend, right? I mean, because this is several hundred thousand, million years, something like that. It's a million years. Yeah, yeah. So someone asked JMS about this. They said, well, what happened to the other races? He said that the Minbari eventually make it. The Narn and the Centauri do not. Sure. They didn't die out. They just didn't hit a state of, and I think this is a term that we should adopt. They didn't hit a state of first one-ishness, which is pretty darn close to immortality, barring any violence. Sounds like ascension. Okay. Right, yeah. First one-ishness. First one-ishness. Great. Yes, it is.

[45:51] Here's what's fascinating to me. I've never thought of this before. Because when we watch this the first time, it's like, oh, look, we're energy people like the Vorlons. We have an encounter suit like the Vorlons. You know what? Kosh never did show up as a dude. Or maybe that's just us seeing him. Maybe that's his angel thing. No, no, no. Here's a question. Is this guy actually Vorlon? Oh, he can't be.

[46:12] What if this guy isn't human? So I think when we look at his encounter suit, I think that's what delivers the message. He's not vorlon because it's vorlon ish but different also i don't think he's vorlon i mean i mean it's presumably the vorlon all like went beyond the rim right yeah uh, with laurian but what if they came back to like side off on this whole thing right, what if what if they did something also don't you just love the fact that he's standing right there in the circle of the guardian of forever right yeah just ready to step into right edith keeler, but it's an interesting thing also because jms does reference the sun dying earlier than it should, and this is to kind of maybe bolster the fact that it might be a vorlon, he says what if you say interfered substantially with the mass of the sun by, say causing a series of jump points to open up inside the sun across several days, i mean i guess you would siphon off so much energy from the sun to that for for the record the the best estimate we have right now is the sun won't die off for about another five billion years which if you go with our best estimate for like how old things are right now that's actually like we're not even halfway through, like i think i think and i could be wrong i think we're like four something billion right now give or take yeah yeah yeah so we're not even quite halfway through it so gosh can you imagine where we'll be in and, like take what we've done so far and then double it and i was wondering.

[47:42] If they will remember us a hundred years from now or a thousand and i figured probably not.

[47:50] But it doesn't matter. We did what we did because it was right. History will attend to itself. It always does. It's incredible perspective.

[48:02] All right. I'm going to say this before I go, before it gets out of my head. The message of the episode. Okay. The biggest message. It doesn't matter what history does with you. It doesn't matter if they remember you, if they forget you, if they vilify you, if they deconstruct you. You do what you do because it's the right thing to do. And what we know is what Sheridan and Dillon and the rest, not just the two of them, what they have done has been what is the right thing to do at this particular time. And Dillon says history will attend to itself. Hey, guess what?

[48:34] Dillon was there for the one thing. She wasn't there for the next two or three. You know what I mean? Sheridan wasn't there for any of it. Right. Right. Well, I guess except for the very first one. They're going to be gone. They're not going to know. that's the position you know what I mean like yeah, They're not even going to know. History will attend to itself. We can only, and that's the thing, we can only do, we can make the best call and make the best decision that we can make right now. We can't worry about the future. We can't worry about what they're going to think of us. If you spend your life worrying about what people are going to think of you after you're gone, you're going to miss what you're supposed to be doing right now. In fact, I would dare say that – and if you look at the history of people, particularly the people that you might even think of as a little bit bad or a lot bad, their concern was some sort of immortality, some sort of remember me while I'm gone, the pyramid builders. Why? Just because.

[49:36] The big monuments, not monuments that other people build to people, but that people build to themselves. The not-so-good Caesars of Rome, the emperors throughout history, building monuments to themselves. What I think also ties to that is when you do the thing you need to do because it's the right thing, that's what can reverberate through history. not you, but the thing. So what we saw was an action taken, what, two weeks ago in Endgame and then in Rising Star reverberated a million years into the future. But at around the thousand year mark or so, the name Sherrod and the name Delenn had become myth, essentially, and then probably faded away from there. It wasn't about them. It was about the thing. So it's not you. Just forget you and do the thing. History will attend to itself. Do the right thing. Do the right thing because it's just the right thing. Jeff, I do want to go back into the video just for a brief moment because I think there's one thing we need to take a look at. Okay. There it is. Dedicated to all the people who predicted that the Babylon Project would fail in its mission.

[50:49] F you. I mean, exactly. Yes. A hundred percent. It's JMS saying, Hey, I've got like an extra six seconds on this thing. Boom. Eat it. Because what's beautiful about that is even though they're filming, this is the first episode of season five. JMS is all right. He's got 21 more episodes that they got to film. They already have the 22nd one already made ready to go. They've already won. Yeah. No matter what happens in season five, they've already won. You said that we would fail. You not just said that you would fail, tried to bury us. Faith manages. Reason wins out. What do you say? Faith and reason are the shoes on your feet? Yeah. I love that so much. You can travel further with both than you can with just one. We think of faith in terms of religion, right? It's got a.

[51:35] Synonymity between the two that I think is really unfortunate because really what's at the basis of all scientific discovery? Faith. I believe there's an answer to this question. I don't know that there's one, but I believe there is, and I'm going to find it. Integrity looks like going, oh, that's not the answer I was looking for. Right. Versus trying to force the answer that you're looking for to fit. Wouldn't that be something? That's what we'll just call scientific integrity. I like that. Not, well, whatever. Science or whatever. You know, we always celebrate the moments when JMS tells us the message. Right. He did. It wasn't what you said, but I think it really is the message. What he says here, what I'm going to share totally, but frankly, I like yours better. The direct quote from JMS. We rise and we fall. What matters is that we persist. We fall, but gradually pick ourselves back up again. No matter how awful things are, we must surrender ourselves to the possibility, of hope. just like brother Alwyn said. And then he has a thank you and he says, thank you, Samwise Gamgee.

[52:48] I like that when we look at that through the lens and through the context of humanity as a single entity, you know what I mean? Like not looking at this through the context of individuality, but when we look at it in that, like for what we saw, you know, when we look at what humanity did, humanity came to a point, came to a really low point with Clark came to a very high point with Sheridan, even though people questioned along the way, came back to a low point where people then literally blew themselves up. And then it was the people that rebuilt and whatever happened over the course of the next million years, we eventually get to the point where we achieve first one. It's one ishness. Exactly. Nia brings it up in the chat and I had it in here. Also, if we were going to, um, cover anything else, but JMS does go out of his way to state that Garibaldi and Lise are not and were not married. He just throws that out or somebody asked the question? He just threw it out, which in a way acknowledges that there was confusion in how he stated it in Rising Star. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And that feels like the obviousness of it gets lost because he clearly said it.

[53:59] It's almost as if, Brent, it's almost as if people watched it and had their initial response, but then they read a thing someone said about it and said, that's the thing. And we go back and we look at it because frankly, okay, frankly, looking back at it, I 100% see where it's not necessarily that they are married. I also can recognize that there are people who did watch it for the very first time without having heard any of this other stuff. Didn't even occur to them that they might be married. Well, Jeff, guess what you get to do this week? Yeah, I know. I'm already, I'm already looking.

[54:35] You, my friend, get the responsibility, the pleasure, and the privilege of rounding out our entire season four ranking of Babylon 5 for the second time. Now, there's a lot. And honestly, Jeff, in an effort to give you just a little bit more time to consider, I'm going to read the list as it stands now. And I'm going to read from the bottom to the top. We have 20 on the list right now because we combined two episodes. And you get to decide if you want to make a change to that even, but here's where we are at the very bottom of the list, the worst episode, in our opinion of the whole season, racing Mars, coming up from that is epiphanies, the lines of communication, conflicts of interest, the illusion of truth all the way down at the bottom. And holy cow, I really liked that episode, the exercise of vital powers falling towards apotheosis, one of the episodes from the first six episodes, holy smokes. The Face of the Enemy, Rumors, Bargains, and Lies, Moments of Transition, what a good night, what a good episode. The Summoning, Hour of the Wolf, whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi, Atonement has kind of been like a benchmark for us.

[55:42] Between the Darkness and Light, The Long Night, No Surrender, No Retreat, our combo episode that we guys basically are considering a single episode is Endgame and Rising Star. And then intersections in real time and then probably the best hour of television in and of itself into the fire. Jeff, you get to place this one final episode. Where does it go in the totality of this ranking? And I will remind people that just because an episode finds itself on a bit of a higher number than others, that doesn't mean it was a bad episode. It just means that many other episodes were better, in which case it's in really good company. I think what's interesting about season four compared to season three, as we were talking about, there are episodes, episode, in season three, I'll probably, I have no desire to ever watch again. I didn't want to watch them the second time. I'll watch every episode here in season four again. Ooh. Like, episode for episode, it's like, yeah, this is good. Even the ones that aren't awesome are still super good. Yeah, but but saying that there are a couple dividing lines in this ranking and we've talked about it before you have kind of like your top will say eight ish or so that are just like, holy crap, top notch. Right. And you get your bottom like three or four ish that are like.

[57:05] And then everything else is like, yeah, solid episode. Totally, totally, totally great. But this one does land in a spot for me. What I, it lands differently for me overall than it did the first time around. I still am reeling and from shock from that reaction, our first time reaction that Dylan had put together for us. I was not my memory of what I thought of the first time at all. It is. It is been so astounding on this entire second watch. Watch the way I so many times, the way I remember thinking about an episode, and what we actually said when we recorded it, like the way we remember something is very different than what we actually experienced when we went through it the first time, which is wild to me how that happens. There's a lesson in that, Brent. And I think this is a lesson. I'm going to say this not to stir up anything with our incredible community, but just to kind of drive a point home. We took an enormous amount of crap on our first time watch for not seeing things the right way.

[58:06] We have taken an enormous amount of crap on our second watch for calling out that we were right to see those things that way the first time around. Well, what I'm going to propose to everyone watching is that when you watch this for the first time, you were probably a lot more aligned with where we were, but you do not remember it that way because that's the way our mind works. Ours just got recorded. Yeah, ours is captured. Yours isn't. We have that reality check. Like I'm going to put out there that for almost all of you, you have a similar experience. You will not remember it that way. And that's not a, that's not bad. You just don't happen to have a recording that you're forced to watch or listen to because of choices that you've made. Because in your head, you will have always thought about it a certain way, which is human nature. Yeah, it's normal. Jeff, if I may also, we have given ourselves a lot of crap. 100%. Listening back to ourselves or watching ourselves now. I'm so mad.

[59:03] So mad. Yeah. A hundred percent. So we have, we've joined you. Like we get it. We're on both sides here. We really do. Jeff, where does this episode go though? This episode is going, so this is in a lot of ways, this is a standalone episode that like so many has depended on everything else, but this is where, where sleeping in light becomes the touchstone and pinnacle of the series. This is the, this is, you know, this is the future casting of the series. If deconstruction of falling star, if sleeping in light did not exist, the series itself would be diminished. It's still be amazing, but sleeping in light is such an incredible capstone for it. If deconstruction of falling stars did not exist. It's fine. It ends well with Rising Star. It ends well with The Long Night, or Into the Fire. It ends well with Sleeping in Light. I said it's fascinating. It's interesting. There's a lot to talk about and break out in it. But on balance, not an episode I'm really interested in revisiting very often. And so I'm looking at the lower part of the ranking on this. And as I remember a couple of these episodes, its spot becomes very clear to me. There's one episode in season four that was a tremendous misfire especially knowing what comes later on in this whole thing and that episode is lines of communication because in that episode what happened we met the drock.

[1:00:32] Who ended up being a very, very different thing. Yeah. Almost right away. We thought very critically of it the first time, critically of it this time as well. So Brent, this is going to displace lines of communication as the number 18 episode and take its spot at number 18. Yeah. Where'd we have this episode the first time around? Yeah, I wanted to call up our, for the first time ranking. And if you are listening on the audio of this, I'm going to put the graphic up on the video because I'm going to read through all of them.

[1:01:00] What Jeff meant by their audio listeners is go check out our YouTube channel, Bad Nerds. Exactly. The Deconstruction of Falling Stars landed at number 21 on our first-time ranking. Number 22 was Epiphanies. I'll just start at the bottom. Number 22 was Epiphanies. Okay. 21, Deconstruction of Falling Stars. 20 was Racing Mars. Okay. Then Lines of Communication. All right. So far, everything's about it. Like, there's a few little shuffles there, but that's about where everything is right now. Keep going. Number 18, Falling Toward Apotheosis. Then the Illusion of Truth. Okay. Conflicts of Interest. Okay. The Hour of the Wolf. The Exercise of Vital Powers. The Summoning. And then number 12, the bottom half is Rumors, Bargains, and Lies. Hour of the Wolf got a huge bump on this one. It did. Yeah. It's interesting. For the most part, you know, plus or minus a couple, we're pretty on par. Yeah, pretty close. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Top half of the season, number 11. we had moments of transition also number 11 on our ranking. Yeah.

[1:02:03] Then whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi, the face of the enemy between the darkness and the light face of the enemy got, got a drop on this one. It really did. Didn't it? Uh-huh. Darkness light got a little bump. Okay. Let's keep going. Then we got a big bump and this is a hundred percent on, uh, on Jeff was end game at number seven and then atonement and, The Long Night, No Surrender, No Retreat, Intersections in Real Time, Rising Star, and then Top Spot into the Fire. Yeah.

[1:02:35] So yeah, some pretty significant changes, but on balance? Not bad. That's pretty close. Yeah. Yeah, pretty close. I don't know. Maybe we were starting to understand the show a little bit by this point. Took us a little bit. We got there. Right. Well, Jeff, that's going to do it for the deconstruction of Falling Stars. And Season 4. Season 4 in the book, man. In the book, our second watch all the way through. Next week we are moving on. We are carrying on first episode of season five. I know this was this production number of this is 0501 but for our intents and purposes, first episode of season five is no compromises. We're going to meet Lockley and a whole bunch of other stuff. Jeff, what do you remember about this episode? What do you remember thinking about this episode? The thing I remember the most about this episode is what you thought about this episode. It's what I remember. Yeah, you loved this. It was your favorite season opener. Yeah. You loved it. Yeah, which I think is a – I don't know that I ever – I don't know that I've loved too many of the season openers. Right. I really don't.

[1:03:39] I don't know that any particular season came out with a bang, you know, but of the season openers, I do remember liking this one a lot. And the thing is, I don't remember why. That would be fun. It wasn't because I liked Tracy Scoggins as Lockley a whole lot, you know, and that's no, again, that's no shade to her. It just, like, the biggest change between season four and season five is Lockley. Yep. And that wasn't the reason. I don't remember exactly why. Why? I really liked this one and I'm interested to see. Interested to see. I don't remember why either. I remember, I remember leaving this episode with so many more questions than anything else. Who is this Lockley? Is she Clark? Is she, you know, share what is the whole thing? And why does it look darker when I thought it was going to look brighter? Cause I thought they were getting TNT money. It turns out TNT was taking some money, but that makes me excited to watch it for the second time because I.

[1:04:30] Yeah, I think there's going to be a lot for us to unpack and experience again and kind of get the clarification of, I'm already apprehensive for the recap video that we're going to be sharing. Oh, yeah. I wonder if you all are also apprehensive. We'll find out right here next week. Make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss it. Comment if you are on a platform that allows commenting. Join the conversation. Leave us a rating and a review. That'd be fantastic. If you want to help the show or offer something in any way, it would mean the world to us if you would share this show. Just let people know about it. It's the best way to grow the already incredible community that we have here with the Bad Nerds and Babylon 5 for the first second. And that will be the last time that we share it. So until next time we start season five, I'm Jeff. Hey, Jeff. Brent, what's what's going on? Man, I'm looking at you and I have a question. What's afflicting you tonight, my brother?

[1:05:23] You know, I didn't want to talk about it. It's but I just don't feel like people recognize us the way that they the way that they should. Jeff you just have to have faith people are reasonable, I wish I could but I just don't I just don't know that I believe that Jeff faith and reason are the shoes on your feet and you can travel much further with both than you can with just one better rationale for silence I have never heard well, I mean we're not some some deep space franchise the station is about something.