Endgame | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Aiken. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and that changed everything. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice. And for the first time, secondly, we are also searching out this show for sci-fi messages. Those things contained within Jeff, the, these messages really do. They hopefully they're making a difference in y'all's lives. I know they're making a difference in my life as we go through, but we are, we're looking for things that hold up a mirror to society, things that give us hope that things can be better in the future, or just tell us how to be better human beings to one another.

[1:37] Now, that being said, this is Jeff and mine's second time through the show. We have watched it once all the way through. We were able to do that spoiler-free thanks to the incredible community out there, put us in a bubble and kept us safe from everything. And really, Jeff, that's the preferred way to do a first watch. So if this is your first watch going through Babylon 5, Jeff and I, we plead with you. We beg you. We implore you. Stop this right now. You don't want to go any further because this is your one and only spoiler warning. Jeff and I are at liberty to talk about anything from any point in the franchise, in canon, out of Canon in universe, extra universe, whatever it is, we can talk about it all. And we will be talking about it all. So this is your one and only spoiler warning. My warning is sincere. Ignore it at your own peril. This week, Brent, it's the end of the earth civil war. As we watch end game, when we watch this the first time we played a game where we would predict what each episode is about based on the title alone. What did you predict end game was going to be about? I said, this is going to be the end of the liberation of earth battle front thing. It's the big battle. It's the climax. It has to be that, that, that end game title of the episode tells you exactly what it's going to be. And it can't be anything different. How about you? I really saw two things. I, the, you know, it's going to, it could be something different. I get right. It's possible.

[3:05] End of the civil war. Right. And I was really specific. And then I thought we were going to have Clark on one of the shadow destroyers. It was going to be positioned behind the other destroyers. Like we had Naroon behind his people before the end of the Minbari civil war. There'd be this back and forth. Like the real battle would be a battle of words between Sheridan and Clark that would result in the Clark forces being like, Hey, turns out this guy's a nutcase and help fuel the defection of people over to, the true earth side. And I also thought that we would get, I stole a phrase from you, And I thought we were going to get the redemption of Dr. Franklin. Oh, he was going to rush back to Babylon five, hook himself up to the quality of mercy machine and save Ivanova. Whoa, dude. You were so close on that one. I did just swap out a name, right? So close. I mean, it's the buddy cop, the other half of the buddy cop show, man. It's really what it was. The only way you get closer is to be Ivanova. Right, right. Well, Jeff, that's what we predicted. this show is about? You want to take a look at what we actually thought about the show once we had a chance to watch it? Oh, man. I'm not going to look good in this. Just heads up. You know what? We've been watching some of these old videos of you and me back then. We didn't look that great. Well, I'm not talking about how I look. I mean, how I'm going to come across. No, I'm talking about. Yeah. It's not that we looked bad back then. I just. Dude, I think we're aging well, Jeff. We look good now.

[4:34] Still got faces for radio, though, man. 100%. Let's watch this. Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time, Endgame. It's the first finale of the season. Do you remember the Shadow Vorlon thing? This is like the second finale of the season. Maybe the third. It's the 20th game. Yeah, we had the Minbari thing. Every episode, right? This was a great episode, but I was pretty disappointed in quite a few things in this episode. So I thought last week of the Quality of Mercy thing. How come no one else thought of that? as soldiers they accept that this is the, this is the lot and we're not going to use that even on a soldier hey let's go to earth, and we're going to take this down and sheridan gets on you know the on the communicator and starts talking out and then literally like four seconds later clark shoots himself i felt rushed and honestly i feel kind of cheated, i'm simply just going to say What is wrong with you, Jeff? This was a fantastic, fantastic finale to this whole deal. I hated, hated, hated, hated, hated, hated the idea that Marcus deserted his people. That was so out of character for him. But I understood. I got it. I was so mad. If he makes it through this, Sheridan needs to kill him. Wow.

[6:04] That is irredeemable. No one does a good hurrah speech like Bruce Boxlight. Oh, my gosh. We've heard a handful of these from him over the course of his time here in Babylon 5. These are your sons. These are your daughters. Their loyalty has never wavered. We are coming home. I'm just like, yeah, I'll follow you to the moon and back. You have one last thought. And this is a thought and a message directly to JMS. Don't you dare kill Marcus. You do not harm a hair on his beautiful head. Dare kill him. Either one could die. Or both could die. Both could be leaving the show. That'd be big. So in order for this war to actually have teeth, somebody on the DVD cover has to die. God, and it's got to be between Marcus and Ivanova? And it could be either one at this point. God, can it be Franklin?

[7:04] I mean, I'm on the Franklin train. I'm good with him. But like, if I got to pick one of them, it's going to be him. Oh, man. I'm really, really super curious how you're going to respond to this show this time around. This is one. We've talked about those episodes that we're looking forward to, both excited and apprehensive for the second time. TKO, Avalon, you know, a few others. This is one of the big ones for me. I had very strong feelings. Dylan who puts those recaps together for us. And she just does such an amazing job. Music was from the episode itself. She even like got the Sheridan music, but as so well done, she was very kind to me. I know for a fact, I was a lot harder on this episode than I came across in that recap. So, uh, let's see what it looks like this time. Yeah. Dylan made you look not that big of a jerk. Yeah.

[7:58] I was a huge jerk. Also, maybe I was justified. We'll find out because we're going to do that right now. We're going to bring up the episode. We're going to watch it in real time with you. Talk about it. Pull out the messages. Do all that stuff as we're watching the episode. We're going to edit that for YouTube. So if you're watching us on YouTube, it's that reaction style cut that you get on so many things. If you want the full and unedited version where you can see Jeff be as much of a jerk or not jerk as he is throughout the whole thing, we post that on our Patreon page at patreon.com slash Bad Nerds. And if you're listening to us on an audio podcasting app, you're going to hear that reaction, and then we're going to meet you on the other side where we will share our final thoughts and talk a little bit more about the messages. One of us is going to rank the episode in our 100% completely accurate ranking, which really is what everybody's here for. If we're being honest. Yes, yes, if we're being honest. And then, I don't know, maybe there'll be some funny stuff at the end. Maybe not. We'll see. But first things first, Jeff, let's watch this episode. Let's go.

[9:19] He hasn't left that spot. Whole time. Holding her hand. He says, Susan, you must be an angel. What do you mean, Marcus? Look at that halo. Probably not the best pickup line. No. He's a broken, broken man. Mm-hmm. His makeup's fantastic. He looks so pale, her makeup's great.

[10:02] He talked about it a little bit in some of the previous episodes, but especially now, there has to be a level of difficulty for Garibaldi. He has not had a good run on Mars. No. Hmm. All the pieces are getting into place. I was going to say, this is one of those episodes that will just sort of be, yep, that happened. Yep, that's how that goes down. Yep, that's what we were prepared for. Where's my popcorn? Let's enjoy it. Let's just have a good time watching this thing. Yeah. We're clear. All right, we can take them off.

[10:39] I think I'd be like, I'm going to keep mine on just a little bit longer after you all take yours off and see what happens. Messed up the lady's hair, though, man. Their hair looks so good. And then they take it off as both. Number one and lead a boat. That's the last batch. They'll drop their cargoes with the destroyers in 45 minutes. We're one jump from more trouble than most of you have seen during your years in Earth Force. And it is my supreme hope that in all the years after this we may never see a day like this again. Man, your stations? Yes, sir. Open up the channel for the rest of the week. I wasn't done with my speech. Signal coming through. It's nothing to do with you, Charlie. Your record's spotless. You're a good captain and you'll make a good gentleman. Maybe don't have this conversation on the bridge. Right. No, they picked me because I'm from the old school. It says a soldier doesn't take arms against his own government and because Sheridan was one of my students back at the academy. I taught him everything he knows. I know how he thinks. He hasn't learned anything since then, so I can read his mind. To tell you the truth, I've always admired him.

[11:38] You ought to forget that these people were once friends, associates, and fellow officers. They are targets to be destroyed. I find that so fascinating because just a few episodes ago, Sheridan said, let's not forget that these are your brothers, your sisters, your, like, just, I love the, throughout this entire thing, the, your word, juxtaposition, between evil earth and good earth coming back. I'm pretty sure we actually had this as part of our discussion the first time around. Because I remember this being very striking to me that he's just like, forget about all of that.

[12:15] They're just bodies. They're the enemy to be destroyed. You can't think about any of that sort of stuff. And Sheridan's like, no, no, we need to think about this sort of stuff. And I think if there's something that we've learned in sci-fi, messages, mirrors to society, you can't forget who's in front of you. As soon as you start treating that enemy like they're objects, like they're fodder, like they're nothing, then you've, you've lost, you've lost your humanity. This guy in saying this has lost his humanity. He's opened the door for hate. They're just, they're just targets. They're just targets. And you know what? That certainly makes it easier to be a soldier. Absolutely. That certainly makes it easier to go out and do your job. But I don't know that we want mind numbing brainless automatons going out there just doing a job. We need people that have brains that can apply ethics and morals. Well, that's the argument that's going to come. Yeah. But when you do that, then what happens when people have differing morals and ethics and stuff? I mean, yes, there's all sorts of things to go with that, but as a bit of fiction reflecting stuff back to us, it's a brilliant juxtaposition between the two.

[13:33] One is a human and the other is not. One's wearing the earth uniform and the other is not and it's on the wrong person. Yeah, absolutely. You know? This is Grumpy to Snow White. I've got the coordinates for the Wicked Queen's Castle. We are in position. You can break the mirror anytime you want. Stand by to receive. This is, all right, let's, let's, this is Grumpy. What did he say there? He's going to Wicked Witch's thing, Snow White. The Wicked Witch's Castle, or the Evil Witch's Castle, right?

[14:03] Grumpy, interesting, interesting. My thought was, and you and I know the answer to this, But for discussion's sake, if this was happening on Stargate SG-1, wouldn't it be Snow White they were using? This is Homer. Nuclear power plant is just in front of us. Dental plan.

[14:23] Or it'd be Dorothy in the Emerald City or something like that. It'd be one of those two. Yeah. If you don't know what that is, check out our show, Stargate, for the first time. Lita, we're ready. Do it. I just got to say, in the legacy of Sheridan and Lita.

[14:39] Not the best way of doing that. What do you mean? Do it. I mean i get it right he's going through a series of orders but just it's it's another another box for her to check in her like list of grievances with him, they've been modified by the shadows who implanted devices in their brains, i wonder if there's an opportunity to link this shadow technology with the teepsicles to the akarans from infection i was thinking skylanders but okay continue just in terms of like, it's a really similar technology there's you know there to introduce the idea of organic tech and the long history of the galaxy and all of that but, in a real way these telepaths are waking up and trying to like transform themselves i i just had the thought when the thing opened it would have been incredible if it opened and they just started going protect protect, what a callback that would be wow you're using them using these people as if they were weapons yeah yeah we're using them, because they are a weapon as are you there are three dozen destroy as am i seen as uniforms and if they can disable those ships we risk 30 lives to save 30 000 but how can you do this to them you're a doctor oh, let's talk about me as a doctor lady you don't know me.

[16:04] Turns out i can do anything i want i'm steven mother effing franklin i'm sorry i'm steven patient.

[16:13] So it's true it's true right post walkabout mind you but still right but also he's explaining here that as a doctor, he's doing what he can do they're they're lost he takes his implants out they're dead to keep the implants in they're zombies and he can use 30 of them to save 30 000 that's i mean, again the only way i can square this in my soul is just to say there are soldiers who got conscripted into the war. And it sucks, but it's what happens. And there is a very justifiable, we're going to take 30. And honestly, it's a whole lot more than 30 because look at all these people we're putting at risk. It's so much. I took it back a little bit because I'd be curious how Franklin reconciled it. Part of the brilliance of Sheridan's plan is it started way back here. So Franklin has had his time to process this and get comfortable with it and figure it out. And you can see how he's steeled. He's just like, yep, they are weapons. This is how it is. But he's also kind of explaining some of his reconciliation. So I want to pay attention to what he says.

[17:24] If we don't win this war, they're dead either way. Now, they're fighting for Earth the same as we are. They just don't know they're doing it. That's the justification. They're fighting for Earth just like we are. Yep. And they're dead. Yeah. If we don't win this war, they're dead. Yeah. And that's what he said. If somebody in the council chamber says.

[17:43] Does he ever get the implants out of the teepsicles back? Deborah asked that. And I don't know that we know. But what we do know, what he just said was, I can't do anything for them unless we get them back to Earth. And the only way we're getting them back is to do this. Well, as I say, and even if we send them back to Earth right now with leadership the way it is there, they're done. It's not going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate Richard Biggs' line reading on there, especially in comparison to his reading partner who leaves a little bit to be desired. She does, yeah. But with that, you can tell that Franklin has told him, he has read himself that line many, many times to get okay with this. And until he believes it. And it, I mean, there's a, like, yeah, that's, it's icky, but it's true. Target engines and weapon systems. I want them disabled, not destroyed.

[18:44] Tell the rest of the League ships to stay here and keep an eye on the destroyers we've disabled. If they get into any real trouble, do what they can to help without compromising their own safety. I love his focus on safety and keeping people alive. The enemy in front of us. If you take the helm, Lanier, I'm going to check on a few things. Is this where he does this? Yeah. And Lanier knows. Hey, Jeff, did you know this was all done on Amiga computers? That looks great. Might have heard that one once or twice. Download from Babylon 5 complete. Even this brief exposure, a few seconds apiece, confirms that the alien healing device is extremely dangerous and should not be used. Computer, stop. Play all entries under this subject heading. Look at him like he's got tears welling up. He has hope. And prepare a shuttle for launch. He just became a man possessed. singular focus you sent for me Delenn I know you're mistaken who Marcus.

[19:50] That dirty rat. This is the thing, too. He takes a white star. A whole white star.

[19:56] And I get it. Takes a whole ship out of the battle. He needs the speed. I get that. But, I mean, what a blow. But he has all those people on that ship that are just following whatever he says. I wonder if Jason Carter. This is a court-martialable offense. Absolutely. He should be thrown in jail because of this. I think under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, it's an executable offense. This is high treason at this point yeah i wonder if jason carter knows now that his character is dying like i always wonder when, like has he got the script for that episode yet and stuff like yeah or been talked to or has jms called him in and be like hey it's got to be one of the two of you and it's gonna be you it's gonna be you man like sorry, also here's how you go out but i just want to not get one of those did jms not tell us that no i don't have that in here and i'm super curious just because of his again, i'm the face the facial acting he is so like you can, feel the conviction in him but i think because because we know what's coming i can also see in his face that he has already given up and maybe it's he has because he understands the nature of the machine he's accepted that he is going to die to save her, and all of that was communicated yeah it's excellent we know that many in the government have wanted to act but have been intimidated by threats of retaliation against your families your friends you are not alone anymore, we call upon you to rise up and do what's right.

[21:25] We have drawn their forces away from earth and disabled them the time to act is now so that's an important note we've drawn the forces away meaning all those ships, and we disabled them. All 30 of them didn't blow them up. Didn't destroy them. They're all still alive out there. We disabled them. They can't do anything to us now.

[21:50] Is part of what you had, just the idea that like Sheridan shows up on earth, makes this big speech and Clark is like, okay, I guess I'm out.

[21:59] Like there was no fight for Clark. There was no fight on earth. There really was no big fight at all. Period. In this. Is that maybe what you feel like you were missing was the fight? It was just, they showed up and then Clark folds effectively. I think that's the thing is like, I should have been timing it. But from the moment we, that Sheridan opens the channel and starts giving a speech to the time Clark shoots himself is like 18 seconds. And it's like, you could read that in a way of just like, well, the guy was a wuss the whole time. And, you know, he got called out. And so, but I just think it's, it's anticlimactic. Someone in the council chambers chat earlier was arguing with me around wanting more of the Clark thing. And they were like at the end of lord of the rings if before they got the ring into mount doom they were like hold on we got to sit down with saran and hear all of his thoughts and why he was doing this and have a back and forth that'd be really anticlimactic yes it would be also it took three movies, to tell the story of this ring going in to the lava this took 18 seconds or this took four seasons, well maybe three because it happened at the end of season one even that but still the fight so they get to so let's just take this moment right so they get to mount doom and they're doing the thing there's a protracted amount of time, of like a battle there's with himself with sam with gollum like all this stuff that happens that then culminates in this.

[23:28] Big epic epic moment 18 seconds that's where i had a problem so would you have preferred like okay we disable all the fleets except for that one ship and that one ship's going to give us a problem. And we're going to have some, or Clark is standing there as a seat.

[23:46] Like I, there's, there's some brilliance here to this, to me, you mentioned earlier, the juxtaposition between left court and Sheridan's approach, Sheridan just, look, we drew them all the way and we disabled their ships. They can't do bupkis. We're here. And Clark goes, oh, uh, yeah, I can't do anything here. And yeah, here's the difference though. So you also had movies on movie studio budgets with those were three and a half hour movies. Those were books. I'm talking about even just the books. Well, okay. Which is unlimited in its constraint. 42 minutes and a shortened in a minus one season from the plan. So I, yeah, I, I, I hear what you're saying when, from the time he starts a speech, the time that, that Clark offs himself 18 seconds, eh, might be a little, maybe 26.

[24:41] But but still, there is a this is I am feeling a very quick like, oh, Sheridan shows up and now Clark just offs himself like there's no back and forth. There's no resistance put up on this this bit whatsoever. I can see JMS looking at this. I mean, Joe's watching and he's screaming at the screen right now, and he's saying something to the effect of that's because Clark was never he was not a man who's going to fight for anything. Right. Clark was was a wuss Clark was that's and so he takes the easy way out as soon as he possibly can well and JMS has thoughts on this oh does he he does uh, it's it's really short and to the point he was very specific and he wanted Clark's death to mirror the death of Hitler, both the suicide and then what he's coming up with here the scorched earth policy coming but it was just basically oh they're coming they're almost here I'm out, I don't recall anything about scorched earth policy with Hitler. What was that? I don't know. Okay. Fair enough. I just know Homelander had that and we never saw anything of that.

[25:49] Okay. Fair enough. Sorry. My lack of historical education stopped with – or my historical education of that stopped with he offed himself in the bunker. Right. Him and his wife. Him and Eva Braun. Right. That's where it stopped for me. It's neat. This whole time, it's been a Nazi analogy, right? You know, if I could give you a concession, what would be interesting is if we actually had clips of Clark throughout this whole thing, first being very bravado, then getting desperate, desperate, more desperate, and then leading to this piece, even if there was never really the fight. Agreed. Agreed. You know what I mean? Also, I personally think it should have been ultimately – I don't really know how this would work. I mean it should have been Sheridan popping through the door. Right. You know what I mean? Although I think it works with it not being him because, it further tells the story of him being like, I don't want this. Like this isn't, you know, I agree with you. I agree with you. But Sheridan's our guy. I would, what I would do to your point is throughout this episode, I would have peppered in like this progression.

[26:53] I'd never have him talk. I would, this would be the thing of like a soundtrack over it and just the visual, but him yelling at lackeys and them slowly not listening to him as it goes on and on. Losing, losing his control, basically. Yeah. And then when Sheridan shows up and he says, they're all disabled, have a scene of like everyone walking out and him left alone, you know, and then he sits in the dark or something. But just the impression I get from this is it's like, they came to attack Mars and Clark's already just like, well, I guess I'm gonna off myself here in a minute. So I might as well write down the stuff I wanted people to know. And by the way, to that, our friend Ben and our council chambers, who's joining us here for the live recording says in the chat, he answers our question from just a moment ago. Hitler's last order was to destroy all of Germany's infrastructure, the roads, power grid, all that sort of stuff. Fortunately, his generals disobeyed that order.

[27:44] This is not the voice of treason. These are your sons, your daughters, whose royalties have never wavered, whose beliefs in this alliance has forced us to take extraordinary means for justice, for peace, for the future.

[28:04] We have come home. We have come home. I have goosebumps. Oh my God. So good. Seriously rank that up there with like male lead speeches, it's up there dude oh yeah along with the other it's a top three, like speech like i mean it's sheridan gave fence grid armed and firing, you're right and you know like the ones that always come to my mind when i think bill pullman from independence right which is weird considering he was also a lone star in space balls but bill pullman from independence day picard in uh first contact, those are the two that always come to the top of my mind braveheart immediately, yeah right i mean there's i mean there's so many we can go oh uh aragorn and lord of the rings you know this is not that day uh just, so many good ones and it's a shame we don't get this one populated in those highlight reels as often as we do because it's so good, you know, because it's so good.

[29:15] I do like that pause. There's the pause. Like he's going to turn it, you know, on whoever's busting in. And then he's just like, nope. I do also very much like that. Clark gets no FaceTime. Yeah. He's a coward. He gets nothing. You know, I will tell you this though, that whole sequence in, in the column of chalk went up for why it shouldn't have been Sheridan coming through that door. Sheridan stands there on the bridge of his ship calling down to everybody. I urge you rise up, take back your country, take back your world. I urge you, you guys do it. Join us. We are here. We are supporting you. Let's do this together. This is not just us. This is all of us coming together.

[29:59] You have the power people, not that guy. It might be the one change I would make to his speech. This is for justice for the future. And then for the American way, no, for you. Right. Like, yeah, this isn't this is we've evolved past the American way. Sure. But as an American sitting right here now and in this time reviewing this show right now, you know, my heritage, my revolutionary heritage still calls out the people being able to rise up against the machine and against the great empire and all that sort of stuff and take back what is rightfully theirs. And the fact that the government is only allowed to operate at the consent and will of the people, a message timely every single year in history.

[30:52] So a fun note on, uh, on this. Yeah. The script is written calls only for the finding of a note with the words scorched earth on it. Okay. It was John Copeland's idea to do the note is shown. And yes, he said quite openly over on AOL that it was his nod to Dr. Strangelove. So with that, I just, for our audio listeners, people who are not watching this with us, uh, the note they're picking up just has this single line written multiple times down the paper. The Ascension of the Ordinary Man. The Ascension of the Ordinary Man. And line by line, the S in Ascension, the C in Ascension, O and of, and all that to spell out Scorched Earth all the way down as well. And so this is something from Strangelove. Dr. Strangelove. Dr. Strangelove. This is an emergency transmission. President Clark is dead. He took his own life before we could arrest him. I'll.

[31:55] See, you next time. all powered engines, give me ramming speed juxtapose the way Clark sacrificed himself quote unquote and the way Sheridan is willing to sacrifice himself.

[32:42] I can't believe we made it through that. Oh, my God. Oh, I remember this. Oh. Hello. She gets all emotional already.

[33:01] I've been out of work for the last two years. I haven't had a job. Welcome back, our viewers. Dude, she's been through hell. She's the media. Like, they get the worst. You can request information from a special earth force and you can see the professionalism kick in it's like she had to prayers go out to those injured on both sides well done we're all equally sons and daughters of earth, and in the coming months we must continue to remember that if we are to heal and move on, i've watched a handful of um, like cons where they do like a reunion of the characters and stuff and this lady's surprisingly in a lot of them yeah yeah like as one of the people that come back that's cool yeah and she's, far more interesting to listen to than the guy that played byron just, i love what she just said we are all sons and daughters of earth equally, yeah what more powerful message is there than that yeah because now we have to come back together.

[34:00] Back a long time ago, I, I, you know, I worked for the government and we're, uh, union represented. We talked about that back in, by any means necessary, but, um, we had a massive real major work stoppage. That's what we call strikes now. Uh, but back before I worked, before I worked there, um, about 10 years before I started working there and I've heard the stories, like it was ugly. So, you know, people have to cry. There's the, the strike line, you know, people striking, not, you know, not working. They're not necessarily getting paid unless the union is helping take care of them, which is a thing they don't generally do anymore. Just really struggling. And people had to cross the line because they had to get to work. They had to do things.

[34:44] The strikers would have water guns filled with Tabasco sauce that they would shoot at them and get them in their eyes, throw mud at them. I mean, just horrible mean. And downtown and where all of the Capitol buildings are, we have this tunnel system that you can use to get around to the various sections of the Capitol and the administrative buildings. Some people were using those tunnels to sneak past the line. And there was a woman who had physical disabilities and needed to go to go to work. A group of people striking waited down in the tunnels for her, jumped her. They didn't beat her up, but they threw eggs on her, all kinds of stuff. And when she was looking up, all just messy and whatever, they took a picture of her real close. And they blew it up as a banner. And they're like, this is what it looks like when you cross the line. A few weeks after that, they agreed on a contract.

[35:38] Everybody went back to work. The people that did that to that woman had to go back to work with her and they had to figure out how to get past it. Yeah. We were preparing for a strike when I was relatively new in my position. And that was the thing that the union was telling us. They were helping coach us a little bit as managers that knowing that much of our team would need to cross. And they were like, it's not the strike that's hard. It's afterwards when people have to come back together and that's the story that we never get on earth but we know happens, yeah you know it i think of movies like newsies which deals with a with a strike and lots of things that you know what do we do if people are going to try to cross the line we soak them and they show them like getting.

[36:22] Getting tarred and feathered man like they go out but you're right there there is that point where nope now we all got to go back to work and you just see them going back to work Even in Babylon 5 when we did our strike episode, they just went back to work and everything was cozy. Again, messages, mirrors to society, hope that things can be better in the future. That's a good hope that we'll be able to get back together. But there's some real work that we never actually see portrayed.

[36:51] That would be an interesting story, a unique story that's never been done. Start the story at the end of the strike. Yeah, and then what happened from there? And how do we get back to where we can actually, okay, let's start the, let's start the next civil war movie at the end of the civil war and show how the country has to come back together, until we can control it more precisely or it will result in the death of whoever uses it. Did JMS seed this machine in season one knowing this was coming or did he get to the spot and be like, you know what? We had this thing way back when. Did he babble on five it or Stargate it? Yeah. Is the question? Yeah. Is there an answer? I don't know. I didn't grab anything down about that. I'm going to say, though, it was planned because if it wasn't a freaking Michael Straczynski. Exactly. And if it wasn't planned, then that episode is just stupid.

[37:51] Like, oh, we did all this to save Garibaldi? That's how you salvage. Right. Like, okay, so you do that just to get Garibaldi back. And now it's like, hey, you know what? We do have this other thing we could use. Or. Now, I'm going to go back just a tiny bit because what I love about this, we know when last we saw Marcus, he was laser freaking focused. On getting Ivanova to Babylon five. And what we see now is the aftermath of him being like, nothing will stand in my way of saving this woman. So real quick before you say, Oh, Oh, I can do it. Okay. Production appreciation moment here. And this is perfection. This is something most people never, ever think about. Thirds. Perfect. No, no. The, The two white dots in each one of his pupils is perfect. That's exactly what you want that when you're setting up a camera shot, when you're doing that. You look my eyes actually at your eyes have them, Jeff, like because it's it's it's there's just a thing that lets us know where that person's looking. It keeps it.

[39:08] Whoever they're they're gaffer, they're they're key grip guy set up everything. Oh, man, it's great. Wreckage. Was that a security dude laid out? So he's going to take out all these people, in order to save this. In cases of fatal illness or injury for one person to live, the other must die. I love you.

[39:36] Oh, Jeff, you big old softy. Yeah, this is so touching. He loves her, Jeff. And there's the thing. Katerina pulled this out of the script book, and I think it's really important. The acting that goes behind this, the thing in the book says it ends with a tender moment where Marcus finally confesses to Bonaville that he loves her. Jason and Carter says, it was very tough that I love you because it contained in that love you is a commitment to everything. Your entire life is in those words. So this is a tremendous responsibility. I talked earlier about how much he conveyed with his face, and this is talking about how much he conveyed with three words. But on this, JMS says, had I known that Claudia would not be returning to the show i would never have killed marcus that makes total sense to me and in frankly the way he left it here at the end, anything could have still happened exactly anything, we know from dr lady from, from uh sheridan you can use it and not give all of yourself away like it's a possibility so yeah any, from here anything can happen well and you know we know that there's some apocryphal thing about how marcus's body gets taken and frozen and he later comes back to life because they unfreeze him and he gets life back somehow or yeah that never happened we don't talk about that.

[41:03] Right but there's still a disgusting way it's it's awful and and and frankly it ruins the moment it, takes we talked about this in stargate it takes all the teeth out of the moment, the idea that marcus would survive this or that avanova would start one of One of the two of them has to die here. It could be, it honestly could be either one. You know, we don't have to change a thing in this moment. It could be either one, but one of them has to actually die and not come back, in order for this to have any, in order for this to mean a thing. Yeah. So the big question everyone has on their minds is, what does Jeff think about the episode the second time around? No, I wasn't thinking that at all. Okay. We can move on then. Hey, what was Jeff thinking about this episode the second time around? I mean, that was a big thing we talked about prior to watching was.

[41:52] Are you still miffed at the episode? Do you still feel cheated, Jeff? Talk to us about it. I don't feel cheated at all. I feel fully, wholly satisfied. I think it was beautiful. I think it was amazing. And here's why. Not because, hey, the ending was great.

[42:07] To the civil war you know like oh that was perfect i still think it would have been cool if they did some other stuff but here's the thing, it was never about clark this episode and the end of the war was never about clark the entirety of this thing was never about clark this was all about, we talked about it back in intersections in real time the banality of evil how just in everyday life, things can stack up in a way that people with evil intention.

[42:35] Get power and people line up to follow and all the horrible things that happened. President Clark at most was the symbol of all that evil that is potential in every nation, state, city, government, and every person. That's all. So him dying wasn't about Clark giving up or killing himself. It was about the desire for freedom, the desire for togetherness, for unity, overcoming an authoritarian power. And I think it was done amazingly. And to back that up, all right, let's look at the proof. Let's look at the people whose faces we actually got to see, whose voices we actually got to hear. Okay. There was the senator who came in. The people marching, we're going to go, we're going to do this. We're going to. They, at Sheridan's behest, rose up. Now, this is a person who was a senator the entire – we don't know if she was a senator the entirety of Clark's regime, but she was a senator under Clark's regime, presumably somebody who –.

[43:41] Had some power. The fact she's the one to go and not some other senator probably indicates she's some sort of party leader or Senate president or something of that nature. She's not just a junior senator from whatever country over there. She's probably somebody of some sort of substance, probably somebody who never really led a lot of opposition, but probably had a lot of issues with what Clark was doing. You know, maybe she felt like her role was to sort of blunt the, the, the, the blade a little bit and did her best job. Maybe she fully capitulated and said, okay, I've had enough. This is not okay. To your point, it's about the, the, what, what you said it so beautifully a second ago, and I don't want to, I don't want to cheat you by saying your words wrong. What you said, uh, but basically you, you were like this, this isn't about Clark. This is about the people coming together. Yeah. It's about the people coming together, the desire for freedom, for unity. There it is. That. Yes. Overcoming the banality of evil and the reign of an authoritarian regime. Right. Right. Okay. The second one that immediately comes to mind is left court. Man who's sitting there. They're nothing. They're not people. They're just targets. Take them out and kill them to where he comes in at the end.

[45:01] On your left. And he takes out the thing and saves Sheridan. He's like, hey, you did pretty good there, John. You're going to have to face a board of inquiry, but you're probably going to be good. Welcome home, Johnny. You good to go. Let's get back to work. Right. Like, really? I kind of feel like he would.

[45:18] I'm not sure. I don't know. I don't know what would happen to him. I think it depends on what he was doing inside the Clark regime. To that point, their desire for freedom, to overcome their own banality of evil.

[45:35] Enter into the freedom effectively. It's good stuff, Jeff. Back into becoming sons, daughters, and otherwise of Earth equally. I like it. I like it. Well, Jeff, there's a bigger question for you. The question is, where do you place this episode in the 100% completely correct, accurate, definitive, set in stone until it's no longer set in stone ranking of season four? Now, I don't recall off the top of my head, and I'm sure you'll tell us in a few moments where this fell in our initial ranking. While I'm sure this episode has a big come up from you and we'll, we'll find itself rising. There's still a lot of good episodes that this episode has to fight its way through. Yep. To find its way certainly into the top five. Could it be in the top 10?

[46:27] Let's go there. Let's do the second five. Let's see if it finds its way into the top 10. Cause I, I don't know that even I would place this in the top five. Okay. I might, I might not. It's possible maybe, but we'll see where Jeff is going to do it. We'll start with number 10. Number 10 was moments of transition. Number nine was the summoning eight hour of the wolf seven. Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi six atonement. And I'll go ahead and give us five just to crack that bit between the darkness and the light. Jeff, where does this episode end game fall? Is it in the top 10 or not? I feel like your choice was very accurate. A hundred percent. It is within the top 10. There's no question. When we look at what's 11 and below, there's some really good episodes here, right? We really enjoyed rumors, bargains, and lies. That was the last time we saw happy go lucky Sheridan, right?

[47:13] Face of the enemy. You know, when we figured out all this stuff about, you know, the things that's going on with Garibaldi and whatnot, or we got a lot of the Garibaldi stuff. Great. But then we start moving up into that top 10 area and sorry sorry i want to i want to go down just if i could, illusion of truth is at number 15 right and that feels like a crime i know that's a difficult episode for folks to watch it is a brilliant episode, brilliant carry on where my eyes are immediately drawn and it's they've been drawn here so many times this season which i think there's something to be said here, but atonement is where it really looked. That was such a pivotal episode, right? In so many ways, a standalone, but have like it reverberates throughout the entire series. So this is very easily going to go Brent as the new number three on the season right below intersections in real time. Wow. Yeah.

[48:10] What? My real debate was between no surrender, no retreat. And Endgame, and it came down to one simple question. Which episode would I rather sit down and watch? Fair enough. And while I love it, Notes for Ender was awesome. This is a show, someone said in the Council Chambers chat earlier, you grab a bowl of popcorn, you sit back and watch it. If I wanted someone to see Babylon 5 for the first time, there's other episodes I would actually show them. But if I just wanted them to be impressed with like, not necessarily, the nuance or the whatever, just like dude this is a kick-ass show you got to check it out i'm showing him this episode it's it it's one on the list to consider for sure, wow i didn't think you'd go that high with it but i probably would have gone that high with it you asked a minute ago where it landed in our first time watch yeah and i ranked this episode, in that's first time watch uh and it ended at number seven.

[49:08] Right below atonement okay so i think i had similar thinking but i was i was i mean again smiffed at this episode yeah dylan did me a solid by not but i i was, yeah i was really upset that's awesome man yep i love it number three well jeff that's gonna put a bow on end game for us, next week your favorite episode maybe not i don't know i don't remember where we i don't i don't actually remember i remember liking this episode, Um, this episode certainly is, uh, is that day new ma, you know, we got to figure out what's going on next, but it's rising star. Jeff, what do you remember about rising star? I'm so scared to watch the recap on this one next week because I don't remember this episode. I remember thinking a lot of it was fine. I remember the scene where you've got Dylan standing in front of all these D authoritarian fascist humans, whatever they'd say, whatever it is. I don't know what you call it when you get out. They're all traumatized from this, right? And Sheridan's just giving this whole like, hey, I'm awesome. It's going to be cool. And then Delenn's like, we're coming for you. We have ships that will blow anything you have out of the sky. And then there's this big ominous flyover. People are just recovering from hearing about Minbari War Syndrome. And now Minbari is standing in front of them in the whatever Oval Office thing being like, we got you.

[50:30] What a misstep I felt this was. i i remember liking though there's a scene with sheridan and bester on opposite ends of the table i think i remember liking that i think remember that fondly but yeah all in all i think this was a powerful great episode but i, i'm pretty laser focused on that one scene i'm like how how can you do this this is so messed up, What did you think? Yeah, I remember liking this episode a lot. I loved the kind of the bait and switch of this episode that Sheridan goes in. And because I remember there's the whole thing about the president comes to him and she's like, look, you're going to take a fall here. Now, we're going to support you, but you're going to retire. I can't have you in the military. I can't have you around here. You've got to get out. And Sheridan's like, you know what? I love my country too much. I love my world too much. I understand. I'm taking a backseat out. Oh, yeah, actually, I was going to do it anyway because I'm going to be the president over here. And we're going to be like peers now.

[51:29] Like, I love that sort of a turnover that we get. You're 100% right. There is no way that Dylan Londo and Jakar should roll up on these people and be like, bam. I also very much remember being on your side when we watched this the first time with the White Star flyover. That is not okay. That is a threat. 100%. That's not a show of strength or force or what it is. It's a show of strength and force. It is not a positive show of strength and force. That is very much a threat. And if you're trying to get these people on your side, that is not what you want to do, Jack. That being said, narratively speaking, character speaking, and what they need to do to make this, to make this happen. Spot on. It was spot on. And the whole best or Sheridan. I mean, it's, this is Sheridan getting a one up on everybody throughout the whole episode. And I really enjoyed it. Uh, despite the realistic issues that I kind of have with the show, this is basically the second of four, uh, series finales.

[52:38] Then we get in this right between, uh, you know, into the fire, this deconstruction of falling stars and then sleeping in light. Our council chamber member, Dylan, put a fantastic question in our chat that we have to bring up where she asks, talking about Dylan and the white stars. Doesn't this just hearken back to the Mimbari show being weapons as a sign of respect? And actually, this is not just a threat, but it's actually a sign of peace and respect. I would say that given what happened the last time they showed their peace. Thank you. Yes. Probably no. Probably no. Probably not the cultural thing that you think it is there, Mimbar. Yeah. Why don't you chill? It's like, hey, Delenn, why don't you come over here for a second? We need to really reiterate this point with you because it is not resonating. Don't you feel like maybe even Londo and Jakar would have been like.

[53:36] We might want to not do that one there. We're all going to be up there together. The Narn and the Centauri being like, so we've actually had some positive dealings with these people. Maybe we do it. You're right. You can write the speech, Delenn. We'll say signed by Delenn also. We'll say it's from all of us, but we'll be the ones that buy it. But, but I do kind of like Dylan's thinking for Dylan in the episode of like, no, I'm just showing respect and just, I mean, how classic would it be if Dylan in the show? I love that we have to separate those two out. Right. For those of you who don't know, we actually have a person whose real name is Dylan, but for Dylan in the show to be so airheaded.

[54:18] Frankly like it's it's kind of on brand right like it's kind of there i'm not gonna say anything, i just called their dylan air you did oh wow that was all you send all your emails to jeff, at the bad nerds.com go ahead well it's easier it's honestly easier to send those emails if you are subscribed to us because we give you contact information in our show notes all the time you see them right there in fact we have links to the first time episode of this links to our patreon everything else in there i am so honored to have you here with us as we have watched this incredible episode and are headed into even more, if you want to help us out in any way we need to grow our community as we head into these incredible episodes so share this show share this show with someone who needs to experience the conclusion of season four with all of us so with that until Oh, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff. Huh. Dude, you forgot. Remember, you wanted to talk. You had something. Right. And you meant to do it. And so before you get out of here, you have a chance.

[55:29] This is somewhere out there. People are already writing us off. They've looked at the odds. They've done the math and decided that we cannot succeed. And maybe they're right. Maybe we're not going to come back from this at all. But history has never been written by people who waited for certainty. It's been written by ordinary men and women and others who stood their ground when it mattered, who looked impossible choices in the eye, and they chose to act anyway. And that is who we are. We're not here because victory is guaranteed. We're here because if we don't go, no one else will. Because there are people depending on us who may never know our names. But they'll have a future because of what we did right here today. So remember what you are fighting for. Remember the people beside you. Trust in your training and trust each other. When the moment comes don't even think about the odds think about the difference that we're gonna make now let's go make it yeah i'll follow you to the moon and back indeed, i mean we're not some some deep space franchise this station is about something.