547. Podcast Discovery, Metrics, and Monetization in 2026

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Marc Ronick: Good morning,

podcasters.

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Today is Tuesday, july 7, 2026
and today downloads
aren't the

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whole story anymore.
Sam Sethi explains the new


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metrics, discovery strategies,
and monetization opportunities


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indie podcasters should be
paying attention to right now.


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So, if you're listening live on
Clubhouse, hit the share button,

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top right-hand side of the
screen, and share it however


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Clubhouse lets you.
And if you're catching us via

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podcast,
YouTube, etc. please
share this with a fellow

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podcaster.
And
now, give us about 30

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seconds, and we'll get things
rolling.


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Thanks for being here.
The Podcasting Morning Show is


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powered by Ironick Media,
helping podcasters launch,


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polish, and grow great shows,
and by Content creators


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accountant helping creators
build real business behind their

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content.
Good morning again.

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Podcasting morning show.
Thank
you so much for being

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here.
I am your host, Marc Ronick.


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Currently on stage with me, we
have my co-hosts, Ralph Estep,


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DR. Fay, BC Babbles, and Sid
Meadows.

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We also have Dan
Schultz from
the audience joining us on

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stage, and of
course, we have
our guest today, Sam Sethi, who

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Ralph is gonna
officially
introduce to everybody.

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Go for it, Ralph.

Good morning.

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Ralph Estep Jr.: Yeah, good

morning everybody.

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Sam is one of the genuine
originals in
podcasting's tech

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movement.
He's the founder and CEO of True

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Fans, a creator-first hosting
and fan engagement platform


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built on podcasting 2.0 Now, I
bet he'd say 3.0 and that's the

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idea that creators should own
their audience and get paid


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directly by fans.
He also co-hosts Pod News Weekly

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Review
with James Cridlin.
He's the chief evangelist of the

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Podcasting Standard project
and has a 30 year tech run that

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includes Microsoft Netscape and
Micro Strategy.

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He's based in
UK, that's why,
if you mentioned he said he was

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at 1o'clock there
in the UK,
that's where he is.

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And last time was on the show,

he made a promise, and today

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he's here to keep it.
So, Sam,
welcome back to the

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show.
Sam Sethi: Thank you.

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Thank you
very much.
Thank you for inviting me back.

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Marc Ronick: Great to have you,
Sam.

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And I'm going to ask you, I
should have noticed this before

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we started, if there's a way
you can turn up your gain a

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little
bit, your microphone,
you sound a little quiet, so I

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just want
to make sure, yeah,
make sure.

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Thank you.
Sam Sethi: Turn that up for you.

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No problem at all.

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Marc Ronick: I don't mind doing
that when we're doing a show

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for podcasters about podcasting.
I
think these are important

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things to just leave in there,
not edit
it out, because this

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is what happens on a podcast.
Might as
well show all of it,

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warts and all.
Right, it's great to have
you

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here, Sam.
And yeah, last time you were

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here was April
already.
Believe it or not, it's already

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been a few months since
you
were here, and I know one of the

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things you did was you
offered
a year subscription to TrueFans

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to one of our
listeners.
It was Austin, and I guess there

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it was a little
delayed, and
you wanted to make good on it,

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and talk about it
here before
we dive into the full

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conversation today.
Sam Sethi: Yeah, look, when you

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invited me on the show last
time, I was keen to offer that


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out, and I thought we'd have
that feature ready, you know, in

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a matter of days after I was
on the show.

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Sadly, it took a
couple of
weeks to get it right, test it,

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make sure it worked.
We
have done that, and now I'm

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here, and I wanted to come back
to make sure that I followed up

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on that promise.
So, yeah, I'll
contact Austin

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after this show.
We'll get him on to True Fans.


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We'll hand him over through the
steps to get on, and yes, he'll

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get his year of free gifted
hosting from True Fans.

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Marc Ronick: Sounds awesome.

Yeah, so we will make sure to

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reconnect the two of you, so

Austin can take advantage of

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truefans.fm and one of the

hosting sites we got to learn a

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lot about back in April, and I'm

excited for Austin.

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I can't wait to hear what he has
to say about
it once he gets

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started with it.
And Sam, one thing I want to


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again mention, with the
microphone situation, it feels


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like it might be coming through
your computer.

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Sam Sethi: Let me check.
Hold on
a sec.

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Marc Ronick: Yeah, let's check

that out before we go any

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further.
Ralph, do you agree?


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Yeah, I was going to ask him to
tap on the micro, yeah, to get


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that test.
Now we can't hear you at all,

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sir.
He still can't hear
you.

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Ralph Estep Jr.: i think he's

going to leave Riverside.

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Okay, okay, yeah, Marc Ronick:
that's the issue.


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Okay, so we will do that, and
while we're doing that, let me


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just say a belated happy
birthday to DR. Fay.

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It was her
birthday yesterday.
DR, how did you celebrate that

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birthday?
DR: Well, I did a lot of


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sleeping, and also I am a new
owner of a.

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Ninja creamy, Marc Ronick: oh,
me too.

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DR: Make your own ice cream and
stuff, and so I'm trying to do

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the high protein, low cal, no

sugar kind of, and I have all of

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this home brewed vanilla that I
have.

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Marc Ronick: That's right, you

were a fiend creating vanilla

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extract, nice.
DR: So yeah, lots of different


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flavors, so that's the way I
spent my Marc Ronick: awesome.

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Yes, Amy
got one of those for
us for Amazon Prime Day when

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that was
going on last week,
or whenever it was, and we've

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made mint
chocolate chip ice
cream, and we made..

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I was hoping to make like
a
slushy Slurpee kind of thing.

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It really came out more like

sorbet with real watermelon.

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It was delicious.
DR: That's watermelon lime, is


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what I'm..
Marc Ronick: that's what we did.

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I put lime juice in that.

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Yep, it was delicious.
So, DR: I've done, of course,


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vanilla and key lime pie.
Oh Marc Ronick: yeah, it's nice.

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We
like, for example, high DR:
protein.

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Yeah, we Marc Ronick: used maple
syrup,
which it's sugar in

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itself, but it's not, you know,
monk
processed sugar.

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Yeah, monk fruit is a great one.
Okay,
we're back.

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We're back with Sam.
Check Ralph Estep Jr.: Sam sent

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it.
Sam Sethi: Here we go.

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Marc Ronick: That's much better.
Sam Sethi: Good things aside.


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Didn't put my mic.
No, I should have.

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Marc Ronick: No problem.
Well,
we're glad to have you

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officially back here now.
And
Ralph, I'll let you ask

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the first question.
Ralph Estep Jr.: Yeah, that's


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great.
So last time you were here, we

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talked a lot about
hosting,
Sam.

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We talked about HLS, real plays,
video, and AI.


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Today, I want to zoom out a bit.
When you look at what's


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happening now across podcasting,
especially around measurement,


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discovery, monetization, and
that direct fan relationship,


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what should indie podcasters be
paying attention to first?

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Sam Sethi: Very simple, the

number of plays - it's play,

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play, play, play, play.
That's
the only metric that

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you really need to be thinking
about,
because as we said last

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time, the download has been

historically a great metric,

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right?
I'm not knocking it.

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It
was all that was available.
The host could only give you a


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download number, and that's the
only number you could take to


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the party and tell advertisers
about, or tell other people


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about where your podcast was
doing, but since then, with


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streaming content that we can do
now through HLS and other


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mechanisms, we now know your
play count across all apps, and

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that really is what advertisers
want.

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They want to know that the

actual podcast was played, you

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want to know that people were

actually listening, and really

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the other part of that, then, is

the consumption time, the

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listen time.
How long did somebody play
my

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podcast?
You know, was it one minute, was

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it 100 minutes?
And
the last part of that is a

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percentage count as well.
And I
say that because James

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Cridland has a daily podcast,
three
minutes long.

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Now, if you said James had 1000
plays and it was
only two

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minutes each play.
That sounds really bad, but if

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you
said that was 80% every
day, that makes sense, right?

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So, you
have to have all three
metrics: play time, listen time,

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and
percent completed, Ralph
Estep Jr.: and that scares
a

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lot of independent podcasters.
I know it does me when I look at

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those stats, and I see that
completion time, and I go,


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"Ouch, yeah.
Do you think that a lot of

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podcasters are
overreacting to
that right now, or do you think

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they're
underestimating the
value of that, Sam?

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Sam Sethi: I think you know we

can go around with blinkers on

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and pretend that our numbers,

our metrics are really

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fantastic, and give big numbers
out, or we can be realistic and

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say, "Look, these are the real

numbers, and with the

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consumption data, you can now

see charts that will tell you

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maybe at three minutes I talked
about something that wasn't

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what my audience wanted.
They skipped
forward.

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Okay.
Note to self: do not talk about

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that again,
right?
So it's interactive feedback

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based on actual real
users,
your fans telling you this isn't

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for me.
I love your
podcast, but this

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section wasn't right, so I
skipped it.

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This
section was amazing, and
this is the peak that we want.

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In fact,
what's really nice
about the consumption chart data

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is you
can then take the clip
from the peak of your

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consumption chart
and put that
as a clip to your social media,

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because that's
clearly what
all the people listening to that

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episode found
most
interesting, and that's probably

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what's going to bring
other
people back to your show, for

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the, you know, oh, wow, that

really sounds cool.

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I must listen to the rest of the
show.


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So, I think consumption data and
being able to see it visually,


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as well as a metric number, I
think is very important.

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Marc Ronick: I want to play off
of that question Ralph just

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asked, and maybe make it a

little more broad in the sense

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that what do you think that

podcasters are overreacting to

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right now, and what do you think

maybe they're underestimating,

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Sam Sethi: they're overreacting
to the download number being

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removed as a metric, you know,

if you had, let's say, 1000

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downloads and now you've only

got 300 plays.

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You feel, oh, that doesn't sound
so good,
right?

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So, I get it.
We all have to reset and

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recalibrate our
numbers again.
And if I then say, in the

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future, you know,
what's your
play count, and you tell me

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yours, and I tell you
mine,
you know that's fine.

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We can then have a.
Like to like
metric, but if

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we're measuring downloads to
plays and the
numbers are out

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alignment, then of course that's
going to sound
awful for one

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party.
Marc Ronick: Yep, I hear ya.

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And
Sam, you've been a part of
ongoing conversations around


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different things like
measurement and the listen time

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and the watch time, like you've
been talking about, and the


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limits of downloads, Pod News
Weekly Review.

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Recently, I think
last month
you did an episode on metrics,

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measurement, and money
for
indie podcasters and nonprofits.

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So, a lot of
podcasters still
live and die by the downloads,

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but now we're
hearing, like,
you're talking about.. hold on,

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let me clear my
throat..
you're talking about more plays,

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the listen time, the
watch
time, deeper engagement for a

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smaller creator.
What
should they actually be

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looking at week to week?
Sam Sethi: So maybe their number

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of new fans that are joining
them, the amount of data that is

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actually being consumed within
the show.

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So it's a really good

indicator if your show's one

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hour long.
Let's take that as a
standard

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metric, 60 minutes, but 80% of
your user base is
dropping off

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at half an hour.
Maybe your show shouldn't be 60

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minutes, or you have to change
up the content.

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I think the more
we give
people data that they can then

216
00:11:17,202 --> 00:11:21,837
transparently look at,
rather
than just have this one esteric

217
00:11:21,837 --> 00:11:26,255
download number, I think

people can then start to change

218
00:11:26,255 --> 00:11:29,525
the style of their show, maybe

look at the way that the show

219
00:11:29,525 --> 00:11:32,234
fits the audience.
Yeah, I think
interactivity,

220
00:11:32,234 --> 00:11:35,963
feedback, all of those things
are what fans will
give you,

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00:11:35,963 --> 00:11:39,320
and then if you've got the data
to look at from what
they give

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00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,150
you, you should be able to
change your show.

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Ralph Estep Jr.: Yeah, now Sam

is true.

224
00:11:43,672 --> 00:11:46,298
Fans leaning into the 32nd
player, are you still
living

225
00:11:46,298 --> 00:11:49,280
in the one minute play?
Sam Sethi: No, no, we've, we've

226
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,425
adapted that now to 30 seconds
across the board.

227
00:11:51,425 --> 00:11:55,235
We, we think,
although I don't
agree with it, I really don't

228
00:11:55,235 --> 00:11:58,152
agree with it.
I
think it's a spurious

229
00:11:58,152 --> 00:12:01,499
number. 30 seconds is not an
indicator of a
play, it

230
00:12:01,499 --> 00:12:03,513
shouldn't be.
Could be somebody who, by

231
00:12:03,513 --> 00:12:07,049
mistake, has
let the podcast
skip in a playlist onto the next

232
00:12:07,049 --> 00:12:08,725
one.
That
shouldn't be counted.

233
00:12:08,725 --> 00:12:14,135
I'll give you an example.
We do not allow
you to rate or

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00:12:14,135 --> 00:12:16,211
review a podcast episode
blindly.

235
00:12:16,211 --> 00:12:19,990
Now, Apple will
let you not
listen to the podcast.

236
00:12:19,990 --> 00:12:22,942
You can go to Apple
Podcasts
and put a review in now.

237
00:12:22,942 --> 00:12:26,040
I love this show, five
stars.
I hate this show, one star.

238
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,795
I never listen to the
show.
Why are you allowed to do that?

239
00:12:29,795 --> 00:12:35,435
We say you have to listen
to
10% of the show before you can

240
00:12:35,435 --> 00:12:37,685
actually make a review or

rating.

241
00:12:37,685 --> 00:12:41,890
We would not like the 32nd
count, and this goes back
Mark

242
00:12:41,890 --> 00:12:45,218
and Ralph to the big number.
The advertiser wants to
be

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00:12:45,218 --> 00:12:48,437
able to say, you know, what we
had 1000 plays.

244
00:12:48,437 --> 00:12:52,937
Well, 1000
plays of 30 seconds
is not actually really a true

245
00:12:52,937 --> 00:12:55,295
metric.

That just means that we're

246
00:12:55,325 --> 00:12:58,655
inflating the numbers again,

like we did with the download

247
00:12:58,655 --> 00:13:01,175
number, in order to make

advertisers happy.

248
00:13:01,175 --> 00:13:05,145
What really should happen is we
should set a
metric of I don't

249
00:13:05,145 --> 00:13:07,481
know.
Again, 10% might be a fair

250
00:13:07,481 --> 00:13:10,639
indicator
that the show was
actually listened to before it

251
00:13:10,639 --> 00:13:13,073
was
abandoned, right?
And that would be the play

252
00:13:13,073 --> 00:13:16,562
marker, but the
industry will
not do that because that's even

253
00:13:16,562 --> 00:13:20,305
smaller than
the current play
number, and people don't like

254
00:13:20,305 --> 00:13:22,725
small numbers,
as we know.
Marc Ronick: Yeah, actually, and

255
00:13:22,725 --> 00:13:24,688

I'm curious.
I was going to ask you, Sam, but

256
00:13:24,688 --> 00:13:27,539
I think you just
revealed that
I was going to ask you, what you

257
00:13:27,539 --> 00:13:30,790
know, you said 30
seconds
shouldn't be counted as a play.

258
00:13:30,790 --> 00:13:33,980
Sounds like 10% is where

you're leaning toward, that

259
00:13:33,980 --> 00:13:37,597
would be more like a play.
I'm
curious, from our live

260
00:13:37,597 --> 00:13:39,463
audience right now, what do you
think?


261
00:13:39,471 --> 00:13:42,551
What should a play be?
Should it be 30 seconds, should

262
00:13:42,551 --> 00:13:45,998
it be 10%
should it be the
majority of the episode.

263
00:13:45,998 --> 00:13:48,797
I know that there are
some
people out there that feel it to

264
00:13:48,797 --> 00:13:51,335
be at least 50% or more to

really be a play.

265
00:13:51,335 --> 00:13:54,313
So, what do you think it is?
Share it in the
chat, let us

266
00:13:54,313 --> 00:13:56,871
know, or if you want to come up
on stage and
talk about it.

267
00:13:56,871 --> 00:13:58,982
If you're listening on
Clubhouse, you are
more than

268
00:13:58,982 --> 00:14:01,478
welcome to do that too.
Ralph Estep Jr.: Marc, I'll jump

269
00:14:01,478 --> 00:14:03,560

in there.
I actually think 10% is a very

270
00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:06,856
good number to use,
actually,
because the thing I like about

271
00:14:06,856 --> 00:14:09,956
that is it doesn't
depend on
the length of your episode, it's

272
00:14:09,956 --> 00:14:13,340
a consumption
percentage,
which I think is a lot easier to

273
00:14:13,340 --> 00:14:16,874
measure, Sam, from
a practical
standpoint, because you know the

274
00:14:16,874 --> 00:14:20,996
behind the scenes
tech of this
is that something that the hosts

275
00:14:20,996 --> 00:14:25,115
could implement
in an easy way
to actually report that metric

276
00:14:25,115 --> 00:14:27,575
instead of
some fantasy big
numbers.

277
00:14:27,575 --> 00:14:29,825
Sam Sethi: Yeah, I mean it's a

heartbeat, you know.

278
00:14:29,825 --> 00:14:32,076
It's not long.
We, we know in advance the


279
00:14:32,084 --> 00:14:36,024
length of the show, we know the
10% marker, we know if you go


280
00:14:36,032 --> 00:14:39,833
through that 10% marker and then
literally record that as a play,

281
00:14:39,833 --> 00:14:41,795

right?
That's so simple to do.

282
00:14:41,795 --> 00:14:43,879
Yeah, Ralph Estep Jr.: because
the
truth of the matter is, if

283
00:14:43,879 --> 00:14:47,030
I'm an independent creator and I
see
real numbers, then that

284
00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:50,444
tells me something besides this
fantasy
land that so many of

285
00:14:50,444 --> 00:14:52,745
us live in.
I hear what you're saying, like

286
00:14:52,745 --> 00:14:55,010
people like the big numbers,
they want to see the big


287
00:14:55,018 --> 00:14:57,215
audience, and then they wonder
why they're not monetizing their

288
00:14:57,215 --> 00:14:59,057

podcast, they wonder why
they're not getting any

289
00:14:59,057 --> 00:15:01,370
feedback, and
the reason.
They're not getting any of it's

290
00:15:01,370 --> 00:15:03,884
because nobody's
listening,
even though there might be 100

291
00:15:03,884 --> 00:15:06,110
downloads, but
nobody's paying
attention to it.

292
00:15:06,110 --> 00:15:07,205
That's why I really love this,

Sam.

293
00:15:07,205 --> 00:15:09,035
I think it's a really brilliant
observation.

294
00:15:09,275 --> 00:15:11,441
Sam Sethi: Thank you.
Marc Ronick: Yeah, and I'm gonna

295
00:15:11,441 --> 00:15:13,503

go to Rez, who's just joined
us on stage.

296
00:15:13,503 --> 00:15:16,415
I think he came up as
I was
asking about what do you

297
00:15:16,415 --> 00:15:18,641
consider an actual play, what

should that be?

298
00:15:18,641 --> 00:15:21,983
Rez, did you have an opinion on
that, Rez: Marc, are you talking

299
00:15:21,983 --> 00:15:24,692
about
the samples that you
play, talking Marc Ronick: about

300
00:15:24,692 --> 00:15:28,198
basically
right now a play on
most platforms is considered 30

301
00:15:28,198 --> 00:15:31,073
seconds, that's how it's marked
as a play.

302
00:15:31,073 --> 00:15:33,880
So, question, are you
on board
with that, or do you think it

303
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,605
should be something
else?
Rez: Absolutely, 30 seconds,


304
00:15:36,613 --> 00:15:39,558
because I've noticed, like
you're talking about like plays

305
00:15:39,558 --> 00:15:43,370
on Instagram, like Marc Ronick:
about plays on like
Spotify,

306
00:15:43,370 --> 00:15:47,079
Apple, etc.
Rez: Oh Marc Ronick: yeah, not

307
00:15:47,079 --> 00:15:49,840
social
media.
Rez: Oh, I don't know about


308
00:15:49,848 --> 00:15:51,209
that.
No, no comments, Marc Ronick: no

309
00:15:51,209 --> 00:15:52,820
comment.
Okay,
DR .

310
00:15:52,820 --> 00:15:55,940
You had a question before, did
that go away?

311
00:15:55,940 --> 00:15:59,230
Well, DR: I didn't want to
venture too
far from the

312
00:15:59,230 --> 00:16:02,490
subject matter, but the word
feedback and engagement
has

313
00:16:02,490 --> 00:16:07,428
been brought up and I have
always had this question and Sam

314
00:16:07,428 --> 00:16:11,086

it might get too technical, so
if it does, can you please


315
00:16:11,094 --> 00:16:15,834
explain it to me like I'm five,
so let's say I have an episode


316
00:16:15,842 --> 00:16:20,328
where there is a nice healthy
respectful debate about AI,


317
00:16:20,336 --> 00:16:25,095
let's say, and at the end of the
show I say, "Listen, listeners,

318
00:16:25,095 --> 00:16:29,298
I want to hear from you.
Just go to the link in the show

319
00:16:29,298 --> 00:16:33,044
notes
and let us know how you
feel about this.

320
00:16:33,044 --> 00:16:41,158
Now, most hosts give
their
clients a web page where their

321
00:16:41,158 --> 00:16:44,020
podcast lives on, right?
Sam Sethi: Correct.

322
00:16:44,529 --> 00:16:51,339
DR: Okay, so why can't they make

that where people can engage,

323
00:16:51,549 --> 00:16:55,815
where listeners can engage,

where the ratings can happen?

324
00:16:55,815 --> 00:17:01,223
It seems like such a logical
thing
to me, but yet no one,

325
00:17:01,223 --> 00:17:04,550
well, Spotify just came out with
it,
but I've had this question

326
00:17:04,550 --> 00:17:06,884
for the past six years.
No one's
doing it.

327
00:17:06,884 --> 00:17:09,821
Why is that?
Sam Sethi: Can I just say we are

328
00:17:09,821 --> 00:17:12,095

doing it, True Founds.
We have been doing it since day

329
00:17:12,095 --> 00:17:14,117
one.
So,
if you go to your True

330
00:17:14,117 --> 00:17:18,204
Fans page, because we don't have
it
as a podcast single page

331
00:17:18,204 --> 00:17:21,758
just showing you your episodes,
we
have multiple tabs on that

332
00:17:21,758 --> 00:17:23,917
page, and one of those is
reviews and
ratings.

333
00:17:23,917 --> 00:17:27,255
One of those is what we call
co-chat and co-listen and


334
00:17:27,262 --> 00:17:29,110
chat.
So, let me explain.

335
00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:32,382
So, with the reviews and
ratings,
anyone can go to your

336
00:17:32,382 --> 00:17:34,553
podcast page, see the reviews
and
ratings that other people

337
00:17:34,553 --> 00:17:37,685
have left, filter them, sort
them,
look at them by

338
00:17:37,685 --> 00:17:39,926
individual episodes.
We give an overall
rating for

339
00:17:39,926 --> 00:17:43,306
the podcasts, we give an overall
rating for the
individual

340
00:17:43,306 --> 00:17:46,192
show.
You, as a podcast creator, in

341
00:17:46,192 --> 00:17:48,880
your admin
dashboard, also get
the ability.

342
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,000
If someone's left a spam

comment, because we do get them,

343
00:17:52,390 --> 00:17:54,958
you can delete them.
You can
also flag.

344
00:17:54,958 --> 00:17:58,538
So, me, as a fellow fan,
somebody might say
something

345
00:17:58,538 --> 00:18:01,152
really rude, and I think, well,
that's flagged.

346
00:18:01,152 --> 00:18:04,280
I
don't like that comment.
That goes back to the creator.

347
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,786
The
creator can then make a
judgment subjectively whether

348
00:18:06,786 --> 00:18:10,329
they want
that comment visible
or not on their podcast page.

349
00:18:10,329 --> 00:18:14,748
So, we've
done a lot of things
that give you, the creator, the

350
00:18:14,748 --> 00:18:18,108
control
over what reviews and
ratings are appearing on your

351
00:18:18,108 --> 00:18:21,050
page, and
again, you can do
that very simply.

352
00:18:21,620 --> 00:18:24,692
DR: Was this something that was
technically difficult?

353
00:18:24,692 --> 00:18:27,977
Is that why most hosts do not do
this?


354
00:18:27,985 --> 00:18:31,832
It just seems like such a
logical thing to me.

355
00:18:31,832 --> 00:18:34,970
I must be
missing something.
I don't know.

356
00:18:35,509 --> 00:18:38,177
Sam Sethi: It's not difficult.
I
think it's the desire and

357
00:18:38,177 --> 00:18:41,095
want and need to do it, and I
have
that desire, want, and

358
00:18:41,095 --> 00:18:42,714
need.
I think it's important.

359
00:18:42,714 --> 00:18:46,351
So, I have
three pillars for
tree files: discovery,

360
00:18:46,351 --> 00:18:47,946
interactivity, and

monetization.

361
00:18:47,946 --> 00:18:52,869
Discovery: how can I make your
podcast more
discoverable?

362
00:18:52,869 --> 00:18:56,523
SEO, yep, sharing it to social
media
automatically.

363
00:18:56,523 --> 00:18:57,287
Yep.
Clips.

364
00:18:57,287 --> 00:18:58,989
Yep.
Again, there's lots and lots of

365
00:18:58,989 --> 00:19:01,544
things we can do.
I mean, there's stuff we do in

366
00:19:01,544 --> 00:19:04,925
the
actual metadata, I won't
bore you, but you know that's

367
00:19:04,925 --> 00:19:07,661
what we
do, the interactivity
stuff that's really important.

368
00:19:07,661 --> 00:19:10,869
So I
talked about reviews and
ratings, but code listen and


369
00:19:10,877 --> 00:19:15,239
chat is the idea that you can
have a we're live right now,


370
00:19:15,247 --> 00:19:19,031
which is brilliant, and and so
fans can listen in and interact

371
00:19:19,031 --> 00:19:22,729
with Mark and you and everyone
else here, but after the


372
00:19:22,737 --> 00:19:27,395
recording is done, actually we
as True Fans allow you to follow

373
00:19:27,395 --> 00:19:31,447

friends on True Fans, and then
if they're listening to this


374
00:19:31,455 --> 00:19:35,433
show, I can see a notification,
I could click on it, and we can

375
00:19:35,433 --> 00:19:38,364
listen and chat in real time
together after the show, talking

376
00:19:38,364 --> 00:19:42,251

about what was said on the
show, that's another form of


377
00:19:42,259 --> 00:19:44,727
interactivity, and those things
are important.

378
00:19:44,727 --> 00:19:49,327
So, I think we're
discovering
that actually one way broadcast

379
00:19:49,327 --> 00:19:53,172
podcasting is not
the future
of podcasting, it is a two way

380
00:19:53,172 --> 00:19:55,098
relationship.
You
know, we talk about

381
00:19:55,098 --> 00:19:56,731
fandom.
Well, let's make fandom.

382
00:19:56,731 --> 00:20:00,305
Then I
want to know what you
think, just as much as.

383
00:20:00,305 --> 00:20:03,400
You want to
know what I think
is important, DR: right.

384
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:04,878
Thank you.
I'm sorry,
I didn't want to

385
00:20:04,878 --> 00:20:08,157
veer too far off the subject of
downloads,
but I've always had

386
00:20:08,157 --> 00:20:09,902
this question, Ralph Estep Jr.:
Sam.

387
00:20:09,902 --> 00:20:11,529
I want to
jump in there,
because John Domingo in the

388
00:20:11,529 --> 00:20:12,806
audience put
something in the
chat.

389
00:20:12,806 --> 00:20:15,525
He said, "When an episode is
downloaded,
can you tell how

390
00:20:15,525 --> 00:20:17,751
much of a downloaded episode is
played?


391
00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:20,262
And I wasn't sure the answer to
that.

392
00:20:20,262 --> 00:20:23,034
I know, with HLS, it's
pretty
easy to do that, because you're

393
00:20:23,034 --> 00:20:25,658
grabbing packets, but on
the
traditional download side, can

394
00:20:25,658 --> 00:20:26,660
you answer that question for

John?

395
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,050
Sam Sethi: Yeah, if we forget

streaming, which is what HLS

396
00:20:30,170 --> 00:20:33,080
does, if you go back to the old
traditional download, the only

397
00:20:33,230 --> 00:20:36,740
people who could give you that

metric were the apps, not the

398
00:20:36,890 --> 00:20:41,941
hosts, and this was the problem,

the hosts knew how many

399
00:20:41,941 --> 00:20:45,895
podcast episodes they served,
aka the
download, but they had

400
00:20:45,895 --> 00:20:49,459
no knowledge of how much was

consumed on the app.

401
00:20:49,459 --> 00:20:52,900
The only people who had that
data, what
we call first-party

402
00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:56,578
data, were Spotify, Apple,
YouTube, True
Fans, and other

403
00:20:56,578 --> 00:20:59,694
apps, right?
And we were keeping that

404
00:20:59,694 --> 00:21:03,107
information
very private.
Now it was a competitive

405
00:21:03,107 --> 00:21:05,640
advantage, you know.

Spotify could go to advertisers

406
00:21:05,670 --> 00:21:08,070
and say, you know what, I can

give you this data if you

407
00:21:08,190 --> 00:21:10,766
advertise with us, right?
And we
can give you real

408
00:21:10,766 --> 00:21:13,188
metrics.
Your ad was played, that ad was

409
00:21:13,188 --> 00:21:15,484
played.
The host would be like, oh, I

410
00:21:15,484 --> 00:21:17,604
have no idea, I can't tell

you, we have nothing.

411
00:21:17,604 --> 00:21:20,640
I can tell you the location, I
can tell you
the downloads, I

412
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,028
can tell you the IP address, but
I have no
more info now.

413
00:21:25,028 --> 00:21:29,360
With HLS, what it's given us is
as a host all
of that first

414
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:31,920
party data.
Now we get, because what happens

415
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,068
is the
minute you click play
and we start to stream six

416
00:21:35,068 --> 00:21:37,877
second
packets, we know where
you are within the podcast

417
00:21:37,877 --> 00:21:39,822
episode,
because you click
stop.

418
00:21:39,822 --> 00:21:43,522
No more first-party data
advantage for
Spotify, Apple,

419
00:21:43,522 --> 00:21:45,964
YouTube.
Now, as a host, we have exactly

420
00:21:45,964 --> 00:21:48,550
the same
data, and we don't
have to ask their permission for

421
00:21:48,550 --> 00:21:50,350
it either.

And that's one of the things I

422
00:21:50,350 --> 00:21:53,220
knew Adam Curry is - we're

talking about paying Ralph Estep

423
00:21:53,220 --> 00:21:54,810
Jr.: the app
providers, right?
That's where you're going with

424
00:21:54,810 --> 00:21:56,034
that, Sam.
Do
you want to talk a little

425
00:21:56,034 --> 00:21:59,010
bit about that for a second?
Sam Sethi: Yeah, so the


426
00:21:59,018 --> 00:22:02,220
relationship today is that the
hosts make money, right?

427
00:22:02,220 --> 00:22:06,568
So you
pay your x monthly
payment to your host, great,

428
00:22:06,568 --> 00:22:09,022
1099 2099
whatever the amount
is.

429
00:22:09,022 --> 00:22:14,382
So they are financially secure,
but the
app developers, we try

430
00:22:14,382 --> 00:22:17,420
and put in things like premium
versions,
right?

431
00:22:17,420 --> 00:22:21,028
But you really put a square peg
in a round hole,
you're

432
00:22:21,028 --> 00:22:23,901
forcing a feature to be premium
when actually it doesn't
need

433
00:22:23,901 --> 00:22:27,010
to be premium, right?
It really doesn't need to be


434
00:22:27,018 --> 00:22:29,871
premium.
And so what we've done is we've

435
00:22:29,871 --> 00:22:32,728
made all the features
free on
True Fantasy app.

436
00:22:32,728 --> 00:22:37,335
We decided let's not play silly
so
and so's with people and

437
00:22:37,335 --> 00:22:39,740
get them to pay an extra few

pennies.

438
00:22:39,740 --> 00:22:43,447
So now what Adam Curry is trying
to say is that
shouldn't we

439
00:22:43,447 --> 00:22:46,820
share some of the value that the
hosts have with
the apps?

440
00:22:46,820 --> 00:22:49,848
Right, let's get the ecosystem a
little bit more
balanced,

441
00:22:49,848 --> 00:22:52,660
because if without the apps,
then what have we got
left?

442
00:22:52,660 --> 00:22:55,512
We're just going to be left with
Apple and Spotify,
right.

443
00:22:55,512 --> 00:22:59,250
And so app developers are like,
yeah, okay, how can we get
a

444
00:22:59,250 --> 00:23:01,972
cut of this?
Now, I talked about advertisers

445
00:23:01,972 --> 00:23:05,989
with
programmable money, which
is where you know we are with

446
00:23:05,989 --> 00:23:08,597
the
industry at the moment.
I won't go into the technical

447
00:23:08,597 --> 00:23:10,869
details,
but you've got the
ability to do something called

448
00:23:10,869 --> 00:23:13,725
splits, which
is the
advertiser can say, I'm going to

449
00:23:13,725 --> 00:23:16,965
pay $14 CPM rate right
for
this ad, right?

450
00:23:16,965 --> 00:23:20,721
All that money was currently
going to a
bit to the host and

451
00:23:20,721 --> 00:23:23,895
a bit to the creator.
Well, now we can take
that one

452
00:23:23,895 --> 00:23:27,310
step further and go bit to the
host, bit to the creator,
and

453
00:23:27,310 --> 00:23:29,968
bit to the app provider.
Now, what's the app provider


454
00:23:29,976 --> 00:23:33,207
then got to do?
Well, we just talked about first

455
00:23:33,207 --> 00:23:36,420
party data.

Well, Adam wasn't aware that

456
00:23:36,420 --> 00:23:39,540
actually with HLS the host can

get that first party data, but

457
00:23:39,540 --> 00:23:42,870
what he's thinking is that apps
can now start to share first

458
00:23:42,870 --> 00:23:45,870
party data back with the host,

you know, your follower counts,

459
00:23:45,870 --> 00:23:48,570
your play count, your percentage

completed.

460
00:23:48,570 --> 00:23:51,758
That's fine.
I don't think it's needed now.

461
00:23:51,758 --> 00:23:54,335
We've
moved on.
Adam's not quite caught up,

462
00:23:54,335 --> 00:23:57,304
unfortunately, but he
will.
But at the end of the day, I

463
00:23:57,304 --> 00:23:59,589
think it's important.
Now I
want to take that even

464
00:23:59,589 --> 00:24:02,026
one stage further.
This is the craziness
of where

465
00:24:02,026 --> 00:24:04,911
I am.
I want to pay the listener now.

466
00:24:04,911 --> 00:24:08,535
This is madness.

Most people will say, but

467
00:24:08,535 --> 00:24:11,775
actually, if you think about

who's the advertiser trying to

468
00:24:11,775 --> 00:24:15,199
reach, it's the listener.
Well,
if you can value my time

469
00:24:15,199 --> 00:24:19,329
and attention with some small
micro
payment, I will stay on

470
00:24:19,329 --> 00:24:23,560
and listen to your ad, and now I
can
actually give the

471
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,150
advertiser back a metric that
says, yeah,
DR. listened to

472
00:24:27,150 --> 00:24:30,794
80% of the ad, Ralph listened to
10% the ad,
Mark listened to

473
00:24:30,794 --> 00:24:33,060
60% of the ad.
Well, guess what, Ralph, you're

474
00:24:33,060 --> 00:24:35,890
not getting a follow-up email,
but DR. and Mark, you're getting

475
00:24:35,890 --> 00:24:39,205

a follow-up email because you
seem interested, and also for


476
00:24:39,213 --> 00:24:42,993
your time and attention, here's
a few shekels, here's a few


477
00:24:43,001 --> 00:24:46,089
micro payments that you can go
now, you can still skip forward,

478
00:24:46,089 --> 00:24:49,539

you can still say it's a
rubbish ad, and I'm moving on,

479
00:24:49,539 --> 00:24:53,555
but at
least let's use
programmable money to pay all

480
00:24:53,555 --> 00:24:57,152
the
participants in the
ecosystem, you know, the host,

481
00:24:57,152 --> 00:25:00,086
the app
developer, the
creator, and the listen.

482
00:25:00,086 --> 00:25:04,526
Because that's when
everyone
makes value Marc Ronick: love

483
00:25:04,526 --> 00:25:05,638
that.
Thank
you, Sam.

484
00:25:05,638 --> 00:25:10,221
So, you mentioned a few minutes
ago that Discovery
is one of

485
00:25:10,221 --> 00:25:14,412
True Fans pillars, right?
I think you said one of
three.

486
00:25:14,412 --> 00:25:17,655
Discovery keeps getting, in my
opinion, either more


487
00:25:17,663 --> 00:25:21,974
complicated or more overwhelming
for a lot of indie and DIY


488
00:25:21,982 --> 00:25:27,165
podcasters, we've got apps,
we've got YouTube social clips,

489
00:25:27,165 --> 00:25:31,145
newsletters, communities,
recommendations, and now AI.

490
00:25:31,145 --> 00:25:36,099
So,
what does Discovery
actually require from indie

491
00:25:36,099 --> 00:25:39,246
podcasters
now?
Sam Sethi: I have a line, which

492
00:25:39,246 --> 00:25:40,865
is, upload once, distribute
everywhere, right.

493
00:25:40,865 --> 00:25:44,789
And that
should be the job of
the host, not the job of the

494
00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:48,123
creator in
the workflow.
We are making too many steps for

495
00:25:48,123 --> 00:25:50,720
the creators
right now.
Okay, take your podcast, it's

496
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,459
video right now,
make an audio
version of it, and now edit that

497
00:25:54,459 --> 00:25:56,646
one.
Oh, and now
find the clip.

498
00:25:56,646 --> 00:26:00,582
Now, actually, auto up, no, not
auto upload,
upload those

499
00:26:00,582 --> 00:26:03,051
clips to 15 different social
endpoints.

500
00:26:03,051 --> 00:26:07,350
Poor
creators are worn out.
I mean, it's hard enough doing

501
00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:11,404
the prep,
the actual editing
of the audio or video, let alone

502
00:26:11,404 --> 00:26:13,702
distributing
it to this social
endpoint.

503
00:26:13,702 --> 00:26:16,909
So, I think what we're seeing
now,
again with the

504
00:26:16,909 --> 00:26:19,400
consumption data we talked
about, being able to
see a

505
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,713
histogram of what was peak and
what wasn't, so it's easy
now

506
00:26:22,713 --> 00:26:27,109
using AI to get a clip for that
peak in the histogram for
the

507
00:26:27,109 --> 00:26:29,773
consumption data.
Now, in True Fans, what we do is

508
00:26:29,773 --> 00:26:32,992
we give
you, as the creator,
the ability to put in what

509
00:26:32,992 --> 00:26:37,176
social endpoints
you want us
to distribute to, and at the

510
00:26:37,176 --> 00:26:41,062
same time we also
give you a
threshold, we say if this

511
00:26:41,062 --> 00:26:44,580
podcast was listened to
more
than 20% then publish it.

512
00:26:44,580 --> 00:26:48,030
If it was listened to 10% or 5%
nobody's really listened to it.

513
00:26:48,180 --> 00:26:50,300
Don't publish it, doesn't seem

to be popular.

514
00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:53,853
So, our job as hosts have to be
to make your
life as creators

515
00:26:53,853 --> 00:26:56,576
as simple as possible, and
that's why I say,
upload once,

516
00:26:56,576 --> 00:26:57,883
and we will distribute
everywhere.

517
00:26:57,883 --> 00:27:02,385
We will
do it to the podcast
directories, the apps, and also

518
00:27:02,385 --> 00:27:05,921
the social media endpoints.
Sam, when an indie podcaster

519
00:27:05,921 --> 00:27:08,796
says
this, and you probably
hear this all the time, Ralph

520
00:27:08,796 --> 00:27:11,145
Estep Jr.: I'm having a
hard
time getting discovered.

521
00:27:11,145 --> 00:27:13,695
Where should they look first?
Is
it the way the show is

522
00:27:13,695 --> 00:27:16,335
positioned, is it the packaging,

is it the platforms they're

523
00:27:16,335 --> 00:27:19,215
using, or is it the way they're
activating their existing

524
00:27:19,215 --> 00:27:20,220
audience?
What do you think,
Sam?

525
00:27:20,730 --> 00:27:23,205
Sam Sethi: I think it starts

weirdly with the cover art.

526
00:27:23,205 --> 00:27:26,153
I know this sounds.. let me give

you a really good example.

527
00:27:26,153 --> 00:27:29,640
I went to the Edinburgh Fringe

last year with my wife, and it's

528
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,360
a massive big comedy festival in

Edinburgh for the whole of the

529
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:35,376
month.
Now, you go to
billboards..

530
00:27:35,376 --> 00:27:39,348
I didn't know any of the
comedians there, but
every

531
00:27:39,348 --> 00:27:42,705
billboard has 50 different shows
that are on that day, and


532
00:27:42,713 --> 00:27:44,531
you're going, which one should I
go to?

533
00:27:44,531 --> 00:27:47,947
I don't know, I don't
know,
and it's that cover art for that

534
00:27:47,947 --> 00:27:51,875
comedy show that is
attracting
me to that show, right?

535
00:27:51,875 --> 00:27:56,593
In the same way I go to
Apple
Podcasts, I go to Spotify, I go

536
00:27:56,593 --> 00:27:59,715
to the homepage of YouTube,

whatever, and I don't know where

537
00:27:59,715 --> 00:28:01,617
to go.
Okay, after I found a
couple

538
00:28:01,617 --> 00:28:04,335
of my favorite shows, that's
fine, but if I'm
discovering a

539
00:28:04,335 --> 00:28:08,007
new show, how do I discover it?
So, one of the
things that,

540
00:28:08,007 --> 00:28:10,090
again, I think cover art is
essential.

541
00:28:10,090 --> 00:28:13,422
Look at
it very carefully.
Look at other people in your

542
00:28:13,422 --> 00:28:16,520
segment as
successful.
What can you glean from them?

543
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,250
What are they doing
that's
making their podcast more

544
00:28:20,250 --> 00:28:22,637
discoverable?
But there's also
one thing I

545
00:28:22,637 --> 00:28:25,814
do want to cover, and this is
quite advanced, so
apologies,

546
00:28:25,814 --> 00:28:28,390
and I'll stop.
I won't get technical, but


547
00:28:28,398 --> 00:28:31,575
programmable money, as I said,
discovery, interactivity, and


548
00:28:31,583 --> 00:28:33,714
monetization are the critical
part.

549
00:28:33,714 --> 00:28:38,045
Discoverability is, you
put
out a trailer, great, now that's

550
00:28:38,045 --> 00:28:39,441
gone into the ether of
the
world.

551
00:28:39,441 --> 00:28:42,882
What if you put out a trailer
with a payment, hey,
listen to

552
00:28:42,882 --> 00:28:45,804
my three minute trailer, and
I'll give you a bit
of money.

553
00:28:45,804 --> 00:28:49,095
Your time and attention has
value as a
listener.

554
00:28:49,095 --> 00:28:51,902
Now you're competing with all
these other trailers,
you're

555
00:28:51,902 --> 00:28:53,775
competing with all these other
new shows.

556
00:28:53,775 --> 00:28:56,130
Well, I'm
adding a little
sweetness to it.

557
00:28:56,130 --> 00:29:00,600
I'm giving you 100 sats or 50

cents or $1 or whatever the

558
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,180
amount may be that I want to put

in my marketing budget to

559
00:29:03,180 --> 00:29:07,170
promote my show, and now when

you get back, you go, okay, I've

560
00:29:07,170 --> 00:29:10,080
got limited time, I'm going to

go to the show that's paying me

561
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,480
something, I don't know this

show, but guess what, I'll give

562
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,345
it more than 30 seconds, I might

give it 10% and I'll listen to

563
00:29:15,345 --> 00:29:19,185
it, okay, you've paid me a

little bit of money for my time,

564
00:29:19,185 --> 00:29:23,256
I like your show, click, now I'm

subscribing it to it, click

565
00:29:23,256 --> 00:29:28,188
now, listen to episode one.
Great,
now as a creator I can

566
00:29:28,188 --> 00:29:32,045
put incentives in as well.
Maybe the
first 10 people that

567
00:29:32,045 --> 00:29:35,835
come on my show, I'll say I'll
pay you if
you put a comment

568
00:29:35,835 --> 00:29:40,000
out, or I'll pay you if you
share my show
with 10 of your

569
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,930
friends.
These are the sorts of things

570
00:29:41,930 --> 00:29:45,192
that
we've built that give
creators tools to allow to

571
00:29:45,192 --> 00:29:49,461
gamify the
system, so that the
early adopters of their shows

572
00:29:49,461 --> 00:29:53,332
can help
become the supporters
and super fans, which is what we

573
00:29:53,332 --> 00:29:55,228
want.
The
late players that come

574
00:29:55,228 --> 00:29:58,944
into our show are great, we
don't have to
pay them,

575
00:29:58,944 --> 00:30:01,374
they're coming anyway.
It discovery is really


576
00:30:01,382 --> 00:30:04,335
essential, and there's many
tools that you can do now.

577
00:30:04,335 --> 00:30:06,405
It's
getting really clever in
the space.

578
00:30:07,020 --> 00:30:09,780
Marc Ronick: Thank you, Sam.
And
I think Dan over on the

579
00:30:09,780 --> 00:30:12,090
Clubhouse stage has a question

or comment.

580
00:30:12,090 --> 00:30:15,840
Go ahead, Dan.
Oh Dan: my god, when you can

581
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,546
gamify
stuff and actually
share the wealth with people as

582
00:30:19,546 --> 00:30:23,485
a
marketer, that's like that
changes everything, just it


583
00:30:23,493 --> 00:30:27,148
changes everything.
That is all I've been trying to

584
00:30:27,148 --> 00:30:29,708
figure out
how to do in a
world that is not allowing you

585
00:30:29,708 --> 00:30:32,712
to do any of that,
so you have
to be extra, extra, extra

586
00:30:32,712 --> 00:30:34,966
creative.
This is just
like a killer.

587
00:30:34,966 --> 00:30:38,720
This one thing alone, Sam, is
like seriously
brilliant.

588
00:30:39,350 --> 00:30:41,596
Sam Sethi: Thank you, Marc
Ronick: thank you, Dan.


589
00:30:41,604 --> 00:30:45,655
Yeah, so let's stay on this
discovery topic for a second,


590
00:30:45,663 --> 00:30:49,485
for the audio podcaster, right?
Because the audio, and maybe


591
00:30:49,493 --> 00:30:53,356
they don't want to become a
full-time video creator, what's

592
00:30:53,356 --> 00:30:58,468
Sam the minimum they should be
doing to help people find the


593
00:30:58,476 --> 00:31:03,318
show, because we know that video
is so powerful for discovery of

594
00:31:03,318 --> 00:31:06,288
a podcast.
Sam Sethi: I think again you


595
00:31:06,296 --> 00:31:08,340
need to find where you think
your audience is.

596
00:31:08,340 --> 00:31:09,480
It depends on
your podcast,
right?

597
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,996
I mean, for me, I've got a
technical
podcast, so I'm on

598
00:31:12,996 --> 00:31:15,155
Mastodon.
I've also got a business


599
00:31:15,163 --> 00:31:18,780
podcast, so I'm on LinkedIn.
Do I really spend any time on X

600
00:31:18,780 --> 00:31:19,500
anymore?
Not particularly.

601
00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:22,076
Do I spend any time on threads
or
blue sky.

602
00:31:22,076 --> 00:31:25,046
No, not really.
I don't find that I have an


603
00:31:25,054 --> 00:31:27,778
audience there, so creating
content for those platforms


604
00:31:27,786 --> 00:31:30,464
doesn't seem logical.
Yes, I might pick up one or two

605
00:31:30,464 --> 00:31:32,795
people
from there, but it
doesn't seem the right thing.

606
00:31:32,795 --> 00:31:35,875
So, for audio
players, that's
a great way.

607
00:31:35,875 --> 00:31:38,900
One thing I did want to ask, we
talked about a little bit about

608
00:31:38,990 --> 00:31:41,062
interactivity.
One thing we've
done, I'd love

609
00:31:41,062 --> 00:31:44,899
to get feedback, because it's a
feature we've
just come out of

610
00:31:44,899 --> 00:31:47,920
left field.
We are now going to allow fans

611
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,154
to
suggest topics for your
podcast and vote them up.

612
00:31:51,154 --> 00:31:55,252
Now you can go
on to one of
the tabs and it says topic

613
00:31:55,252 --> 00:31:58,485
suggestion, you click
on it,
you type in the topic you might

614
00:31:58,485 --> 00:32:01,830
want that podcast to do in

their next episode, and other

615
00:32:01,950 --> 00:32:05,550
fans can vote up or down those

topics, and so then, as a

616
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,340
creator, I can look at it and

go, "Oh yeah, my fan base wants

617
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,370
me to talk about x, y, and z,

and the most popular one was

618
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:12,558
this.
Okay, that's what we're
going

619
00:32:12,558 --> 00:32:15,290
to do on the next show, Ralph
Estep Jr.: Sam.

620
00:32:15,290 --> 00:32:17,895
I want to
come back to that,
remind me of that, but I want to

621
00:32:17,895 --> 00:32:20,305
mention
something Jody Krangle
on YouTube asked, and it's going

622
00:32:20,305 --> 00:32:23,150

back to what we were just
talking about, she says, is that

623
00:32:23,150 --> 00:32:24,170

something they're offering
now?

624
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,860
Is there a website associated?

Do you need to be hosted in

625
00:32:27,950 --> 00:32:30,590
their system to benefit, or is

this something you can sign up

626
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,402
for separately?
And what she's
talking about

627
00:32:32,402 --> 00:32:35,621
there is that shift away from
advertising
dollars to

628
00:32:35,621 --> 00:32:38,630
actually paying your listeners.
Can you address that,
Sam?

629
00:32:38,930 --> 00:32:41,648
Sam Sethi: Yeah, so there's two
steps to that.

630
00:32:41,648 --> 00:32:45,004
So, truefans.fm is totally free.
You pay
nothing, nada.

631
00:32:45,004 --> 00:32:47,562
You join if you are a podcast
creator.

632
00:32:47,562 --> 00:32:50,884
You can
find or search for
your podcast and claim it.

633
00:32:50,884 --> 00:32:53,833
That is free.
You
then get access to the

634
00:32:53,833 --> 00:32:56,980
admin dashboard for your
podcast,
where you can then go

635
00:32:56,980 --> 00:32:59,550
and play in what we think of as
a
sandbox.

636
00:32:59,550 --> 00:33:03,858
We have all of the podcasting
two oh tags, the
person tag,

637
00:33:03,858 --> 00:33:05,878
location tags, chapters,
transcripts.

638
00:33:05,878 --> 00:33:10,492
Go and
see how it will work.
Now, when you're not hosted by

639
00:33:10,492 --> 00:33:13,671
us, that
will only work on
True Fans, the app.

640
00:33:13,671 --> 00:33:16,822
Okay, so you can say, I
want
to turn on the location tag.

641
00:33:16,822 --> 00:33:19,740
I don't want it to be in

Apple, Spotify, Fountain,

642
00:33:19,860 --> 00:33:22,102
Blueberry, but I want to see

what it looks like.

643
00:33:22,102 --> 00:33:24,605
Okay, I'm going to type in where
I live,
that's where it

644
00:33:24,605 --> 00:33:26,173
appears in the app.
Got it?

645
00:33:26,173 --> 00:33:28,743
Okay, now I want to
do all
these other things.

646
00:33:28,743 --> 00:33:32,510
I want to play with payments.

Okay, turn on the monetization.

647
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,348
I have a wallet given to me when

I join True Fans.

648
00:33:35,348 --> 00:33:38,780
I can top it up with Apple or
Google Pay,
very simple.

649
00:33:38,780 --> 00:33:43,253
I can play with dollars or
pounds or euros, or I
can play

650
00:33:43,253 --> 00:33:46,675
with Bitcoin SaaS.
I choose the monetary system I


651
00:33:46,683 --> 00:33:48,946
want.
Most people choose the currency

652
00:33:48,946 --> 00:33:52,729
they understand to
begin with.
So I'm going to put in $10 into

653
00:33:52,729 --> 00:33:55,836
my marketing budget,
and I'm
going to find my trailer, and

654
00:33:55,836 --> 00:33:59,047
I'm going to say
I'm going to
pay you a penny a minute to

655
00:33:59,047 --> 00:34:02,886
listen to my podcast,
and then
you can see the effect, did

656
00:34:02,886 --> 00:34:06,240
people then listen longer to

your podcast trailer because you

657
00:34:06,330 --> 00:34:10,650
paid them or they listened less,

so you can play in the sandbox

658
00:34:10,739 --> 00:34:14,159
on True Fans without actually

paying any money or doing

659
00:34:14,219 --> 00:34:16,284
anything.
Now, if you then want
to

660
00:34:16,284 --> 00:34:19,146
switch to become hosted by us.
Thank you very much.

661
00:34:19,146 --> 00:34:22,955
Now,
what we will do is we'll
take the RSS feed that you've

662
00:34:22,955 --> 00:34:26,330
created
in True Found, and we
will distribute that to every

663
00:34:26,330 --> 00:34:30,070
app for
you, so all of those
features that you've turned on

664
00:34:30,070 --> 00:34:33,068
and played
with in the sandbox
now become available everywhere

665
00:34:33,068 --> 00:34:36,620
else, and
so yes, it's a
two-step process.

666
00:34:36,860 --> 00:34:41,110
One is totally safe if you don't

like any of the things you've

667
00:34:41,230 --> 00:34:43,719
played with in our sandbox,

we've got a single button that

668
00:34:43,780 --> 00:34:47,290
says revert back to original

feed, and all of those features

669
00:34:47,350 --> 00:34:50,524
get turned off, and you go back
to your original feed.

670
00:34:50,524 --> 00:34:52,456
So try it, play with it, it's
safe.

671
00:34:52,456 --> 00:34:55,565
And
if you then want to move
to hosting, we will then take

672
00:34:55,565 --> 00:34:58,438
all
those changes you've made,
and we will distribute that on

673
00:34:58,438 --> 00:35:01,440
your
behalf, Marc Ronick: DR.
Had a question,
go for it.

674
00:35:01,500 --> 00:35:05,670
DR: I do, and since we're

talking about true fans, not

675
00:35:05,820 --> 00:35:12,780
only fans, true fans, I would

feel compelled to say that your

676
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,472
browsing Marc Ronick: history.
DR. Hello, DR: we're talking

677
00:35:17,472 --> 00:35:23,880
about how
innovative true fans
actually is, so if I were to

678
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:30,052
move my
podcast from, say,
Lipson to Captivate, I would be

679
00:35:30,052 --> 00:35:34,325
losing all
those numbers that
I have built up throughout the

680
00:35:34,325 --> 00:35:37,595
years on
Lipson.
Sam Sethi: Yeah, DR: has True

681
00:35:37,595 --> 00:35:40,780
Fans been able to
address this
issue.

682
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,218
Sam Sethi: No, I won't.
I won't
say we have, and I

683
00:35:44,218 --> 00:35:47,779
think because we're moving from
a download to
a play count

684
00:35:47,779 --> 00:35:51,409
number anyway, with streaming
content, a lot of the
old

685
00:35:51,409 --> 00:35:53,280
metrics aren't holding value
anyway.

686
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,141
That's not something we
can
do, because the hosts we talk

687
00:35:57,141 --> 00:36:00,801
about first party data from

hosts not being shared, exactly

688
00:36:00,864 --> 00:36:03,465
the same thing.
Now we're seeing
host first

689
00:36:03,465 --> 00:36:06,653
party data of your previous
downloads and the


690
00:36:06,661 --> 00:36:09,548
interactivity with your podcast
not being shared.

691
00:36:09,548 --> 00:36:13,327
So when you do
something
called a redirect 301 which is

692
00:36:13,327 --> 00:36:16,835
basically telling your
old
host where to point your, you

693
00:36:16,835 --> 00:36:20,494
know, people who might still

have a link to your podcast to

694
00:36:20,557 --> 00:36:24,018
your new host, that's it.
They
don't give you any more

695
00:36:24,018 --> 00:36:27,713
data, they don't give you all
the
analytics, they don't do

696
00:36:27,713 --> 00:36:30,058
that.
Some, I think, maybe even Buzz


697
00:36:30,066 --> 00:36:33,566
Sprout mount might allow you to
download it when I can't


698
00:36:33,574 --> 00:36:37,925
remember off the top of my head,
but it's not a common thing that

699
00:36:37,925 --> 00:36:41,113

data generally is lost.
Sam, one of the topics you

700
00:36:41,113 --> 00:36:44,938
suggested, as
I invited you on
the show today, was a thing

701
00:36:44,938 --> 00:36:48,707
called Super Feeds
and Creator
Portals, and I want to get into

702
00:36:48,707 --> 00:36:52,234
that, but I want to
look at it
through the lens of the

703
00:36:52,234 --> 00:36:54,636
audience.
A lot of indie
podcasts hear

704
00:36:54,636 --> 00:36:57,994
terms like Portal and Super
Feed, and they
immediately

705
00:36:57,994 --> 00:37:01,751
think that sounds too technical
for me, I can't
handle that.

706
00:37:01,751 --> 00:37:05,329
So, Sam, what problem are Super
Feeds and
Crater Portals

707
00:37:05,329 --> 00:37:08,139
trying to solve for regular
everyday podcasters.


708
00:37:08,147 --> 00:37:10,892
Okay, let's start from the
creator portal.

709
00:37:10,892 --> 00:37:14,425
The original
role of RSS was
to, on the slow dial-up

710
00:37:14,425 --> 00:37:18,000
internet, was to go out
to
weather apps, and to sports

711
00:37:18,063 --> 00:37:21,964
apps, and to e-commerce apps,

and pull the data into a creator

712
00:37:22,027 --> 00:37:23,978
portal.
That was what Netscape,
AOL,

713
00:37:23,978 --> 00:37:27,146
Yahoo, MSN did for us.
We remember those portals,

714
00:37:27,146 --> 00:37:29,451
right?

And that was because the

715
00:37:29,514 --> 00:37:32,299
internet was slow.
It was better
that they pulled

716
00:37:32,299 --> 00:37:36,109
it in the background and then
aggregated
it on a single

717
00:37:36,109 --> 00:37:38,870
page.
Fast forward to today, we've got

718
00:37:38,870 --> 00:37:42,011

Supercar, Substack, Patreon -
all these are portals.

719
00:37:42,011 --> 00:37:45,416
They are
portals because
they're not single function apps

720
00:37:45,416 --> 00:37:47,647
now.
Single
function app is that

721
00:37:47,647 --> 00:37:51,336
YouTube's a single function app,
let's say,
does video well,

722
00:37:51,336 --> 00:37:55,453
maybe audio as well, but you
could say overcast
is a single

723
00:37:55,453 --> 00:37:57,880
function app, it's an audio
podcast app.

724
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,307
Pocket
Pasts is a single
function app, whereas where I

725
00:38:01,307 --> 00:38:04,357
see it going
now, because fans
want this parasocial

726
00:38:04,357 --> 00:38:08,127
relationship with
their
creator, they want to know more

727
00:38:08,127 --> 00:38:12,013
than just the audio, so
they
want to read the blog, they want

728
00:38:12,013 --> 00:38:15,381
to know if you've got an

event, they want to buy some

729
00:38:15,444 --> 00:38:18,963
merch from you, they might want
to do other things, right?

730
00:38:18,963 --> 00:38:22,228
So now portals are the
aggregation
of all of those

731
00:38:22,228 --> 00:38:25,650
types of different content
points that
the fan can get

732
00:38:25,650 --> 00:38:29,746
from the creator, and so that's
where I
see on the app client

733
00:38:29,746 --> 00:38:32,937
side where it's going, and I
think that's
been proven.

734
00:38:32,937 --> 00:38:36,819
Now, you look at Patreon, paid
out $2 billion to
creators,

735
00:38:36,819 --> 00:38:40,422
Supercars paid out $26 million
to their top 10
creators.

736
00:38:40,422 --> 00:38:44,111
People are wanting to buy
premium content, ad-free,
pay

737
00:38:44,111 --> 00:38:47,263
their creators, support them,
buy subscriptions, buy
merch,

738
00:38:47,263 --> 00:38:51,135
go and see them live, all of
those things, and it's not


739
00:38:51,143 --> 00:38:53,916
just I want to listen to your
podcast anymore.

740
00:38:53,916 --> 00:38:58,320
So that's the
front end side.
Well, RSS itself is broken down.

741
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,516
Originally, RSS
was about
blogging, right?

742
00:39:00,516 --> 00:39:04,503
If we all remember the original
format
of blogging or news,

743
00:39:04,503 --> 00:39:08,346
and then Adam Currae, bless his
socks,
included the enclosure,

744
00:39:08,346 --> 00:39:12,140
and now we got podcasting.
Well,
actually, why don't we

745
00:39:12,140 --> 00:39:15,365
smash that together?
Why didn't we
have one feed

746
00:39:15,365 --> 00:39:19,219
that includes your audio, video,
your blog, maybe a
list of all

747
00:39:19,219 --> 00:39:22,977
of the events that you're at, a
list of all of the
items you

748
00:39:22,977 --> 00:39:26,799
can buy, so now a super feed,
basically from True
Fans, has

749
00:39:26,799 --> 00:39:30,703
all of those elements in one
single RSS feed that you
can

750
00:39:30,703 --> 00:39:33,841
publish and host, and then share
with any other app.

751
00:39:33,841 --> 00:39:37,582
Now,
what does that mean?
It means that other apps now can

752
00:39:37,582 --> 00:39:41,157
read
your RSS feed or your
super feed and go, oh, wow,

753
00:39:41,157 --> 00:39:43,170
okay, there's a
merch feed in
here.

754
00:39:43,170 --> 00:39:46,229
Let me see.
Oh, t-shirt 1099 Let me have a


755
00:39:46,237 --> 00:39:48,761
page for your merch.
Oh, there's an event.

756
00:39:48,761 --> 00:39:50,361
Marc's doing an event.

Brilliant.

757
00:39:50,361 --> 00:39:53,668
Let me go and buy tickets.
How do I do that?

758
00:39:53,668 --> 00:39:55,586
Now I
can create a ticket
page.

759
00:39:55,586 --> 00:39:59,572
So you, as a creator, own your

feed, you own your super feed,

760
00:39:59,635 --> 00:40:03,067
and you own your content.
And
that's critical, so within

761
00:40:03,067 --> 00:40:06,745
the super feed we will have
premium,
sorry, freemium

762
00:40:06,745 --> 00:40:10,376
content, premium content events,
blogs,
ticketing, merch, and

763
00:40:10,376 --> 00:40:14,416
that's what a super feed is, and
it's
displayed in a creator

764
00:40:14,416 --> 00:40:16,560
portal, and that's what we're
doing.

765
00:40:16,710 --> 00:40:18,570
Ralph Estep Jr.: Sam, I want to
follow up, Jody asked some more

766
00:40:18,660 --> 00:40:21,836
questions in the YouTube chat, I

want to follow up with that,

767
00:40:21,836 --> 00:40:24,698
and she says this something
you'd
consider offering

768
00:40:24,698 --> 00:40:27,716
through hosts.
I'm with Captivate, and have no

769
00:40:27,716 --> 00:40:29,596
intention of leaving anytime
soon.

770
00:40:29,596 --> 00:40:33,050
And then she says, and I
made
a comment back, I said, it

771
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,870
sounds to me like what Sam is

offering is basically what I

772
00:40:35,930 --> 00:40:39,500
would do, is I went to buy

advertising from an app, and she

773
00:40:39,710 --> 00:40:43,210
says, well, yes, but what would
that be within the ecosystem of

774
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:45,535
true fans?
Do you know what the
numbers

775
00:40:45,535 --> 00:40:48,784
are of that system, and how many
people could
potentially be

776
00:40:48,784 --> 00:40:50,565
reached?
My experience with closed


777
00:40:50,573 --> 00:40:53,900
ecosystems isn't good, and she
says I don't disagree with his


778
00:40:53,908 --> 00:40:56,090
assessment of what the audience
could potentially want, though


779
00:40:56,098 --> 00:40:58,398
not at all.
So, how do you respond to that,

780
00:40:58,398 --> 00:41:00,928
Sam?
Sam Sethi: Try to understand the

781
00:41:00,928 --> 00:41:03,654

question again, Ralph, I think
what she's saying is Ralph Estep

782
00:41:03,654 --> 00:41:06,150
Jr.: she's content
keeping her
hosting Captivate.

783
00:41:06,329 --> 00:41:08,280
Sam Sethi: Yep, Ralph Estep Jr.:
what I think
she's getting,

784
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,503
and I don't want to speak for
Jody, but I think
this is

785
00:41:10,503 --> 00:41:14,946
where she's going, is could she
somehow advertise
through her

786
00:41:14,946 --> 00:41:19,248
Captivate on to true fans?
I think what I heard you
say,

787
00:41:19,248 --> 00:41:20,968
Sam, you correct me if I'm
wrong.

788
00:41:20,968 --> 00:41:23,891
Is that, like, for
example, I
just bought an ad buy with

789
00:41:23,891 --> 00:41:27,179
player.fm and you know
they're
showing me numbers.

790
00:41:27,179 --> 00:41:29,561
I'm assuming yours is working
the
same way.

791
00:41:29,561 --> 00:41:32,505
You're just instead of buying an
ad, you're basically
paying

792
00:41:32,505 --> 00:41:35,456
people to listen to your show.
Sam Sethi: Yeah, Ralph Estep

793
00:41:35,456 --> 00:41:36,314
Jr.: I think that's
what she's
saying.

794
00:41:36,314 --> 00:41:38,603
So, and then I guess the
question she's
asking is a

795
00:41:38,603 --> 00:41:40,952
fair question.
She said, you know, how much of

796
00:41:40,952 --> 00:41:43,825
reach does true fans have?
Well, how big is that ecosystem?

797
00:41:43,825 --> 00:41:45,760
I
think that's what she's
really getting at.

798
00:41:46,030 --> 00:41:47,960
Sam Sethi: And, Judy, I won't

lie, we're not big yet.

799
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,870
We knew we're, you know, we're
one of
the players that are

800
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:53,845
pushing the boundaries.
This is all stuff
that people

801
00:41:53,845 --> 00:41:57,600
haven't really woken up to yet,
so the adoption curve
isn't

802
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,600
massive.
But I think what I'm a firm

803
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,416
believer in is we
build, we
show, and then people follow,

804
00:42:04,416 --> 00:42:08,350
and so stay with
Captivate.
Great host, Mark's a good friend

805
00:42:08,350 --> 00:42:10,485
of mine, the CEO.

Love him dearly.

806
00:42:10,485 --> 00:42:13,674
And you know, with their
features and
functions, you

807
00:42:13,674 --> 00:42:17,570
can do dynamic ad insertions
into your audio, you
can buy

808
00:42:17,570 --> 00:42:20,200
ads.
They don't do the micro payment

809
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,466
stuff, they don't
allow you to
pay your listeners, they don't

810
00:42:23,466 --> 00:42:26,238
allow you to promote
in that
way, they don't allow you to

811
00:42:26,238 --> 00:42:28,524
have premium content in
the
same way we do.

812
00:42:28,524 --> 00:42:30,920
So, there are horses for
courses, you
know.

813
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,965
I think what I would say is, as
I said earlier, create
your

814
00:42:34,965 --> 00:42:38,858
account on True Fans, it's free.
Go and play in the
creator's

815
00:42:38,858 --> 00:42:41,956
admin dashboard, it costs you
nothing, turn on and
turn off

816
00:42:41,956 --> 00:42:46,317
all the features and functions.
See the effect of
those in

817
00:42:46,317 --> 00:42:49,400
True Fancy app.
Ask your listeners what they

818
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,765
want
that might be a feature
or function that you can offer


819
00:42:52,773 --> 00:42:55,600
them, and then look at Captivate
and say, "Hey, guys at


820
00:42:55,608 --> 00:42:57,377
Captivate, have you got this
feature?

821
00:42:57,377 --> 00:43:00,144
I really like it.
My
audience likes it, and they

822
00:43:00,144 --> 00:43:02,876
can say, yeah, this is how you
turn
it on in Captivate, or

823
00:43:02,876 --> 00:43:06,324
they go no, and we won't have it
for six
months, or we may

824
00:43:06,324 --> 00:43:09,922
never have it, and then you can
make that
decision on your

825
00:43:09,922 --> 00:43:12,035
own.
Yeah, Ralph Estep Jr.: Sam, I

826
00:43:12,035 --> 00:43:14,235
have a
follow-up to that,
because I'm the money guy on the

827
00:43:14,235 --> 00:43:16,815
show, so
I'm thinking, if
you're not charging them for

828
00:43:16,815 --> 00:43:18,855
hosting, where
does Sam make
money on this?

829
00:43:18,855 --> 00:43:21,950
I think I know the answer, but I

want to make sure, so if I'm

830
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,410
Jody, and Jody, by the way, put
in the chat that she, she was,

831
00:43:24,500 --> 00:43:26,380
that was where she was going

with this.

832
00:43:26,380 --> 00:43:29,526
I just take an advertising
budget, I go over to
True

833
00:43:29,526 --> 00:43:33,104
Fans, I add it to my advertising
budget, and I do
this.

834
00:43:33,104 --> 00:43:35,207
I'm assuming you're making a
split on that or something,


835
00:43:35,215 --> 00:43:38,054
Sam, is that the way it works?
Sam Sethi: Yeah, we take 10% of

836
00:43:38,054 --> 00:43:40,458
the micro payments that you put
out, and that's fair.

837
00:43:40,458 --> 00:43:42,190
I think.

We, you know, we're giving you

838
00:43:42,190 --> 00:43:46,570
the platform, but we don't make
a subscription-based charge.

839
00:43:46,750 --> 00:43:50,200
Now, if you come to host with

us, then yes, we do charge you

840
00:43:50,260 --> 00:43:53,470
for hosting, but we also do one
thing, which I mentioned last

841
00:43:53,500 --> 00:43:57,610
time: we give you a refund on

the amount if you don't consume

842
00:43:57,850 --> 00:44:00,900
the full amount of your

streaming data, so we have a

843
00:44:01,530 --> 00:44:05,460
half gigabyte streaming plan,

one gigabyte, two gigabyte, and

844
00:44:05,460 --> 00:44:09,870
if you stream your podcast and

fans only use a percentage of

845
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,320
that streaming plan, then we

look at how much was retained

846
00:44:13,830 --> 00:44:16,320
and we say, right, $15 is what

you paid at the beginning of the

847
00:44:16,380 --> 00:44:20,130
month, but you've only consumed
$8 there's your $7 back, and we

848
00:44:20,220 --> 00:44:22,880
think that's a fair model,

because that's actually value

849
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,878
for value you have paid upfront,

but that's what you consume

850
00:44:26,878 --> 00:44:30,386
that month, the rest of the
money can
go to your next

851
00:44:30,386 --> 00:44:32,150
month, boom, and that's where we
think it should
go.

852
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,663
Marc Ronick: Sam, earlier you

mentioned platforms like

853
00:44:35,729 --> 00:44:39,528
Patreon, that leads nicely into
another topic you suggested

854
00:44:39,528 --> 00:44:43,384
that we dive into a little bit,
which
is premium content, and

855
00:44:43,384 --> 00:44:46,930
a lot of podcasters hear
premium, and
then they think

856
00:44:46,930 --> 00:44:50,998
that they need a huge audience
or a fancy
membership program

857
00:44:50,998 --> 00:44:55,105
to do that, but for indie
creators, I think
there's a

858
00:44:55,105 --> 00:44:58,635
more practical question here.
What's the real
opportunity

859
00:44:58,635 --> 00:45:02,263
for premium content for.
Smaller podcasters, and
what

860
00:45:02,263 --> 00:45:04,680
are creators getting wrong about
it?

861
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,730
Sam Sethi: Okay, so today when

we talk about premium, we mean

862
00:45:07,792 --> 00:45:10,000
paid.
Let's be clear, when you
pay

863
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,700
for an episode, the problem is
the current grouping of apps


864
00:45:13,708 --> 00:45:16,396
haven't got that function.
Now it's, it's starting.

865
00:45:16,396 --> 00:45:19,464
Don't get
me wrong, this let
me try and explain.

866
00:45:19,464 --> 00:45:23,257
A year ago we would
have had
to say to our fans, go to

867
00:45:23,257 --> 00:45:26,586
Patreon, or go to Substack,
or
go to Supercast memberful,

868
00:45:26,647 --> 00:45:30,491
create an account there, buy my
premium content there, and then

869
00:45:30,552 --> 00:45:34,152
take the private feed URL and

bring it back to the app that

870
00:45:34,213 --> 00:45:37,935
you like listening in, and then
consume it in there, and that

871
00:45:37,996 --> 00:45:41,602
private feed, by the way, is not

secure, it could be shared

872
00:45:41,602 --> 00:45:45,096
with anyone, you could buy it
once
and give it to 100

873
00:45:45,096 --> 00:45:47,191
people, right.
Thankfully, most people
don't

874
00:45:47,191 --> 00:45:50,066
do that, but that is, it's
totally insecure.

875
00:45:50,066 --> 00:45:54,125
So, there's
two problems in
there: one is you're asking your

876
00:45:54,125 --> 00:45:57,926
audience to
go somewhere else,
two, you're asking them to bring

877
00:45:57,926 --> 00:46:01,418
the content
back to the app,
that's a lot of friction, and

878
00:46:01,418 --> 00:46:05,279
it's a lot of
friction in the
process, and we talked earlier

879
00:46:05,279 --> 00:46:08,531
about, you know,
there's
enough work already about

880
00:46:08,531 --> 00:46:12,045
sharing clips and editing
your
podcast without asking your

881
00:46:12,106 --> 00:46:15,712
audience also to go and open up
an account where you've got

882
00:46:15,712 --> 00:46:19,612
your premium content, so we've

basically allowed users and True

883
00:46:19,673 --> 00:46:23,517
Fans, creators and True Fans to
have a single toggle which says

884
00:46:23,578 --> 00:46:27,056
this episode is was free.

Toggle, this is how much I want

885
00:46:27,117 --> 00:46:30,014
to charge, and we encapsulate

that audio or video.

886
00:46:30,014 --> 00:46:33,696
So, for example, clever, clever
people
might go, 'Ah, well,

887
00:46:33,696 --> 00:46:36,354
I'll just go and look at the RSS
feed.


888
00:46:36,362 --> 00:46:38,956
I'll copy and paste the
enclosure, and guess what?

889
00:46:38,956 --> 00:46:41,778
I
don't have to pay.
You can't do that.

890
00:46:41,778 --> 00:46:45,301
If you copy and paste the

enclosure when you've not paid,

891
00:46:45,362 --> 00:46:47,927
you'll just get silence.
We do
not allow it.

892
00:46:47,927 --> 00:46:51,575
And so what happens is you then
have a
payment confirmation.

893
00:46:51,575 --> 00:46:55,319
We then unencrypt that file, and
then
you can listen to it.

894
00:46:55,319 --> 00:46:58,558
Can you copy that after?
No, you still
can't copy it,

895
00:46:58,558 --> 00:47:02,300
because we do a check every time
that you are
the person who

896
00:47:02,300 --> 00:47:05,967
paid for it, so even if you
shared that mark
with Ralph,

897
00:47:05,967 --> 00:47:09,974
we'd go, "Ralph, you don't have
a token that says you
paid for

898
00:47:09,974 --> 00:47:12,735
that, you can't listen to it.
So, premium content.


899
00:47:12,743 --> 00:47:16,928
First thing we wanted to do was
make it simple enough in the


900
00:47:16,936 --> 00:47:20,541
actual creator dashboard for you
to create premium content from


901
00:47:20,549 --> 00:47:23,937
freemium, so job done.
Second, we wanted to make sure

902
00:47:23,937 --> 00:47:27,079
that you
know it couldn't be
shared afterwards, like a

903
00:47:27,079 --> 00:47:30,671
private feed,
and third, we
wanted to make sure if you

904
00:47:30,671 --> 00:47:33,416
wanted to, you can
make a
fixed period as well.

905
00:47:33,416 --> 00:47:37,107
You might say, actually, it's
like a
rental, I only want to

906
00:47:37,107 --> 00:47:40,911
make this premium for a week,
and then
after a week, make it

907
00:47:40,911 --> 00:47:43,549
free, right?
Or make it for a month,
so

908
00:47:43,549 --> 00:47:47,038
there's lots of things, but in
that single super feed we


909
00:47:47,046 --> 00:47:50,106
talked about earlier, you would
have freemium and premium


910
00:47:50,114 --> 00:47:53,669
content that would then go to
another third-party app, the


911
00:47:53,677 --> 00:47:58,034
technical term, and you can look
it up, it's called 402 you know,

912
00:47:58,034 --> 00:48:01,532

we've heard of 301 we've heard
of all these different terms,


913
00:48:01,540 --> 00:48:05,452
these are http codes, sorry if
anyone's sort of going, what's


914
00:48:05,460 --> 00:48:09,641
he talking about, I apologize,
but if you go and look up what's

915
00:48:09,641 --> 00:48:12,500

HTTP 402 it's basically an
error code that says this

916
00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:15,895
content has
to be paid for
before it can be viewed or

917
00:48:15,895 --> 00:48:17,960
listened to, and
that's what
we use.

918
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,092
We use this HTTP capability to
send a
trigger request to a

919
00:48:22,092 --> 00:48:24,947
third-party app to say,
actually, in the RSS
feed,

920
00:48:24,947 --> 00:48:28,559
you've just found the premium
content, so you now need
to

921
00:48:28,559 --> 00:48:31,546
make that available, and there
is an open standard, it's


922
00:48:31,554 --> 00:48:35,658
called L 402 and F 402 I will
add one last thing, it came out

923
00:48:35,658 --> 00:48:39,676
only last week, you can look it
up, it's called X 402 sorry, but

924
00:48:39,676 --> 00:48:41,800

I'll say it.
It's called Open USD.

925
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:43,697
There's a term called
stable
coin.

926
00:48:43,697 --> 00:48:47,185
So, up until now, for the last
three years, we've
tried to

927
00:48:47,185 --> 00:48:50,800
push a rock up a hill called
Bitcoin and micro
payments,

928
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,305
and the adoption curve has been
less than nothing,


929
00:48:54,313 --> 00:48:56,800
practically.
People have got struggled to go,

930
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,627
what's a
wallet?
How do I convert, you know,

931
00:48:59,627 --> 00:49:03,206
dollars into bitcoin, and
then
how much bitcoin do I give?

932
00:49:03,267 --> 00:49:06,177
Am I about to give this person a

million bitcoins?

933
00:49:06,177 --> 00:49:09,018
Ah, I don't want to do it, it's
too complex.


934
00:49:09,026 --> 00:49:11,878
So, a couple of days ago,
Stripe, PayPal, Visa,


935
00:49:11,886 --> 00:49:16,135
Mastercard, bunch of US banks
got together, 140 of them,


936
00:49:16,143 --> 00:49:19,377
actually financial institutions.
It's called Open USD, you can


937
00:49:19,385 --> 00:49:23,512
look it up, and it's basically
the way that we will create, I


938
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,066
think, digital currency, and why
it's nice is because your bank


939
00:49:27,074 --> 00:49:30,817
will give you a digital wallet,
so actually moving money from


940
00:49:30,825 --> 00:49:34,233
your checking account to your
digital account will be one


941
00:49:34,241 --> 00:49:38,122
click, and now I've got some
money in my digital wallet, and

942
00:49:38,122 --> 00:49:41,204
that digital wallet will be
available on e-commerce


943
00:49:41,212 --> 00:49:44,277
websites, TrueFans being one,
but other websites, right?

944
00:49:44,277 --> 00:49:47,935
And
now I can pay both in the
local fiat currency, dollars,

945
00:49:47,935 --> 00:49:52,344
pounds,
euros, or I can pay in
a digital currency, and so micro

946
00:49:52,344 --> 00:49:55,745
payments,
not just for
podcasting, but it could be a

947
00:49:55,745 --> 00:49:59,208
micro payment for a
like on
Facebook, a micro payment for a

948
00:49:59,208 --> 00:50:01,724
like on X.
These
things will come, so the

949
00:50:01,785 --> 00:50:05,629
adoption of Open USD, which is a

stable coin, I think, is going

950
00:50:05,690 --> 00:50:09,564
to be something you'll hear a

lot more in the next six to 12

951
00:50:09,564 --> 00:50:11,040
months.
Marc Ronick: So, Sam, thank you

952
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:12,723
for that.
And whether it's your platform

953
00:50:12,723 --> 00:50:16,260
or another platform
that
allows you to charge for

954
00:50:16,470 --> 00:50:21,110
content, what would you say to

podcasters who worries that

955
00:50:21,230 --> 00:50:23,690
charging for content will turn

their audience away.

956
00:50:24,650 --> 00:50:26,960
Sam Sethi: I think three years

ago I would have said to you,

957
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,801
'Wow, people aren't ready to

pay.

958
00:50:29,801 --> 00:50:32,715
The perception is podcasting is
free, like radio.


959
00:50:32,723 --> 00:50:38,100
We don't pay for it right now.
People want quality, they don't

960
00:50:38,100 --> 00:50:41,625
want interruption from, you
know, Blue Apron or Casper


961
00:50:41,633 --> 00:50:46,090
mattresses, or what other ads
that can people can get often.


962
00:50:46,098 --> 00:50:48,487
Unfortunately, independent
podcast creators get the


963
00:50:48,495 --> 00:50:51,040
low-level advertising, they're
not getting Nike, and they're


964
00:50:51,048 --> 00:50:53,782
not getting Adidas, and they're
not getting BMW.

965
00:50:53,782 --> 00:50:57,535
So the
interrupted nature of
podcast advertising means that

966
00:50:57,535 --> 00:51:01,507
most
people now, as I said
earlier, are paying for premium

967
00:51:01,507 --> 00:51:04,656
content
on Patreon on
Substack, and you know, if you

968
00:51:04,656 --> 00:51:07,930
look at yourself, I
pay for
Spotify Premium, I pay for

969
00:51:07,930 --> 00:51:09,627
YouTube.
I don't see ads.


970
00:51:09,635 --> 00:51:13,490
Ads are interrupted for me.
I am fortunate enough to be able

971
00:51:13,490 --> 00:51:17,802
to
pay not to see ads, and if
that means paying a little bit

972
00:51:17,802 --> 00:51:21,339
of
micro payment or some
dollars, pounds, cents to

973
00:51:21,339 --> 00:51:23,637
podcaster to
get the ad-free
version.

974
00:51:23,637 --> 00:51:26,024
Well, great, I'm doing two
things:
one, I'm getting rid

975
00:51:26,024 --> 00:51:28,520
of the ads, and two, I'm
supporting my
favorite

976
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,800
podcaster.
So, I think people have jumped

977
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,306
over to the
other side of the
fence now and say, actually, you

978
00:51:34,306 --> 00:51:37,185
know what, my
time and
attention is valuable, I'm

979
00:51:37,185 --> 00:51:39,440
willing to support you as a

podcaster, but I don't want

980
00:51:39,470 --> 00:51:44,140
those rubbish ads interrupting

the conversation flow, and so I

981
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:48,220
think we are seeing a change to
more premium-based content

982
00:51:48,310 --> 00:51:51,718
rather than ad-supported.
Marc Ronick: You know, I don't


983
00:51:51,726 --> 00:51:53,683
normally lose track of time, and
I have today.

984
00:51:53,683 --> 00:51:56,875
I didn't realize
we have only
just a few minutes left, so I

985
00:51:56,875 --> 00:52:00,324
want to ask you a
little bit.
I guess this is probably a good

986
00:52:00,324 --> 00:52:03,471
place to land
the plane here.
If you were advising a DIY

987
00:52:03,471 --> 00:52:06,702
podcaster, an
indie podcaster
who's starting from scratch

988
00:52:06,702 --> 00:52:09,395
today with all
these different
things out there that's

989
00:52:09,395 --> 00:52:12,600
available to us, what
would
you tell them to build in that

990
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,870
first 90 days?
Sam Sethi: I have an expression

991
00:52:15,870 --> 00:52:18,891
called go ugly early, which is
don't procrastinate, right?

992
00:52:18,891 --> 00:52:22,799
Just
do it, right?
Sit down, think about first of

993
00:52:22,799 --> 00:52:25,876
all, Who's my
audience for the
content I wish to create.

994
00:52:25,876 --> 00:52:29,219
Have I got a deep
interest in
the content I'm creating?

995
00:52:29,219 --> 00:52:32,000
Because Pod Fade will
come
after the seventh or eighth

996
00:52:32,060 --> 00:52:35,330
episode, when only your mom and
your three mates are listening,

997
00:52:35,630 --> 00:52:37,010
right?
You haven't got the
discovery,

998
00:52:37,010 --> 00:52:39,236
so you go, "Ah, am I wasting my
time?

999
00:52:39,236 --> 00:52:41,500
So I think,
think about who
the audience is.

1000
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,650
Look at who your competitors may

be in that segment.

1001
00:52:45,650 --> 00:52:48,360
Then start to look at the things
of the
structure.

1002
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,544
So, you know, how do I want to
structure it?

1003
00:52:50,544 --> 00:52:52,000
Okay, I
don't know how to
structure it.

1004
00:52:52,030 --> 00:52:54,760
Well, listen to other podcasts

that you like and see how they

1005
00:52:54,940 --> 00:52:57,103
structure it.
Start to build
those building

1006
00:52:57,103 --> 00:52:59,975
blocks for your podcast before
you turn the mic
on.

1007
00:52:59,975 --> 00:53:03,465
Then turn the mic on, put out
the episode, put out a
trailer

1008
00:53:03,465 --> 00:53:06,344
if you're not sure you want to
put out an episode,
share it

1009
00:53:06,344 --> 00:53:09,947
with as many friends as we got,
get honest feedback,
that was

1010
00:53:09,947 --> 00:53:13,650
amazing, Mark, that was rubbish,
Sam, whatever it may
be, but,

1011
00:53:13,650 --> 00:53:17,030
but, but you know, don't hide
behind it, right, you
know,

1012
00:53:17,030 --> 00:53:21,446
we're not all Joe Rogan, and so
answer at the end of the
day

1013
00:53:21,446 --> 00:53:23,814
is go ugly early, just get out
there.

1014
00:53:23,814 --> 00:53:27,614
Every podcaster I
know will
tell you the first 567, episodes

1015
00:53:27,614 --> 00:53:31,867
were car crash,
they were
awful, format was wrong, I

1016
00:53:31,867 --> 00:53:35,097
sounded awful, I didn't
get it
right with my guest.

1017
00:53:35,097 --> 00:53:37,970
All of those things will happen,

you're just going to join the

1018
00:53:38,090 --> 00:53:41,800
queue of everyone in the

learning curve, but by episode

1019
00:53:41,890 --> 00:53:46,240
10, 1214, you're in your flow,

you're finding an audience now.

1020
00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:48,394
You can start to do clever

things, you know.

1021
00:53:48,394 --> 00:53:51,280
Okay, how can I make my show a
little bit more
zapier?

1022
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:55,057
How can I add some music to it?
Maybe I can add a clip,
maybe

1023
00:53:55,057 --> 00:53:57,310
I can share that.
Don't bite off the elephant,

1024
00:53:57,670 --> 00:53:59,182
Ralph Estep Jr.: Sam.
I'm
already registering the

1025
00:53:59,182 --> 00:54:03,588
name My Mom and My Three Mates
Podcast,
loving that.

1026
00:54:03,588 --> 00:54:06,362
brilliant.
Go, go early and go ugly.

1027
00:54:06,362 --> 00:54:09,213
I'm gonna,
and both of those
I've just bought the domains,

1028
00:54:09,213 --> 00:54:12,516
because you
know, I'm gonna
give you proper credit, Sam, but

1029
00:54:12,516 --> 00:54:16,062
those are
brilliant
observations, Marc Ronick: Sam.

1030
00:54:16,062 --> 00:54:17,910
This is this
whole
conversation's been really

1031
00:54:18,150 --> 00:54:20,780
helpful, because I think that

the bigger message is that

1032
00:54:21,230 --> 00:54:24,350
podcasting is becoming a lot

more than publishing episodes,

1033
00:54:24,410 --> 00:54:27,680
and we've, we talked about that
just recently, just last

1034
00:54:27,710 --> 00:54:30,800
Thursday, we talked about

podcast real estate, that it's

1035
00:54:30,890 --> 00:54:34,730
more than just your podcast

itself, and because it's

1036
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,600
becoming about better listener

relationships, better signals,

1037
00:54:38,690 --> 00:54:42,580
better ownership, smarter ways

to create value, and then

1038
00:54:42,610 --> 00:54:45,294
hopefully monetize that value

where you can.

1039
00:54:45,294 --> 00:54:48,740
Where should people go if they
want to learn
more about what

1040
00:54:48,740 --> 00:54:51,296
you're building?
Sam, Sam Sethi: go to TrueFans

1041
00:54:51,296 --> 00:54:52,268
dot
home.
Thanks, Marc.

1042
00:54:52,268 --> 00:54:54,086
Have a play, join it's
pain-free.

1043
00:54:54,086 --> 00:54:57,447
You need
any help, there's
Claire Waite Brown or myself.

1044
00:54:57,447 --> 00:55:00,797
Ping me, Sam at
TrueFan.
Is Claire at Truthand on FM.

1045
00:55:00,797 --> 00:55:04,118
We're open doors, always
open.
I'm happy to spend time, energy,

1046
00:55:04,118 --> 00:55:05,972
and effort guiding you
through
it.

1047
00:55:05,972 --> 00:55:09,617
In terms of listening to more
about the sort
of madness, and

1048
00:55:09,617 --> 00:55:12,887
I put.. well, join me on Pod
News Weekly with
James

1049
00:55:12,887 --> 00:55:15,102
Cridland.
We talk about this stuff every

1050
00:55:15,102 --> 00:55:17,093
week.
We talk
about we're doing

1051
00:55:17,093 --> 00:55:20,056
something called transcript
annotations
this week, which

1052
00:55:20,056 --> 00:55:23,335
is completely mental, it's the
open equivalent
to Apple's

1053
00:55:23,335 --> 00:55:25,262
timed links, if you're
interested.

1054
00:55:25,262 --> 00:55:28,739
So, taking
transcripts and
finding books, places, and how

1055
00:55:28,739 --> 00:55:31,934
do you do that,
and automate
it, and again, ways of

1056
00:55:31,934 --> 00:55:35,158
monetizing your transcript.

So that's where you can find me

1057
00:55:35,215 --> 00:55:37,734
most weeks, talking about this

sort of stuff.

1058
00:55:37,734 --> 00:55:41,318
And yeah, LinkedIn or Masterton,
but yeah,
you'll find those

1059
00:55:41,318 --> 00:55:42,840
places Marc Ronick: awesome,
Sam.

1060
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,622
Great
to have you back after
just a few months.

1061
00:55:45,622 --> 00:55:49,346
Great conversation
for sure.
And we will always check out

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00:55:49,346 --> 00:55:52,420
that Pod News podcast,
Pod
News, one of our favorite

1063
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,580
sources.
And speaking of which,


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00:55:54,588 --> 00:55:58,300
tomorrow is all about news in
the podcasting space.

1065
00:55:58,300 --> 00:56:01,165
Tomorrow's
episodes are news
and comment episodes, so if

1066
00:56:01,165 --> 00:56:04,503
you're listening
right now and
want to be in the know, we will

1067
00:56:04,503 --> 00:56:08,146
cover some stuff
that we read
over at Pod News and other

1068
00:56:08,146 --> 00:56:10,508
sources as well.
So,
come join us, get our

1069
00:56:10,508 --> 00:56:13,059
thoughts and opinions on all the
things
happening around the

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00:56:13,059 --> 00:56:16,122
world of podcasting.
Again, thank you to
Sam Sethi

1071
00:56:16,122 --> 00:56:21,080
of True Fans, truefans.fm And
until tomorrow,
make it a

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00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,360
great day, everybody.
Take care.