431. Make Your Podcast’s Differentiator Work for You

0:04 Good morning podcasting Morning Chat. Today is Thursday, January 8th, 2026, and today we're digging into the podcast Better Call Daddy. From first impressions and intro clarity to emotional storytelling and pacing, we're uncovering what keeps listeners locked in. So if you're listening live on Clubhouse, hit the share button, bottom left hand side of the screen and share it. However, Clubhouse lets you, and if you're listening, you'd be a YouTube chatter LinkedIn. Share this with a fellow podcaster and now give us about 30 seconds and we'll get things rolling. Thanks for being here. Good morning again, podcasting, morning chat. Thanks so much for being here.

1:24 I am your host Mark Ronic. Currently on stage with me we have Ralph Estep, Jonathan Howard, BC Babbles, Ashley Feller, producer Ashley Feller, Dr. Faye, Sid Meadows, Nick Naulback and Hall of Fame inductee and Pod News. The man from Pod News himself, James Cridland, has joined us this morning. Morning for us, not for him by any stretch. So today, as I said, we're going to breakdown. Better call Daddy and I'll get into that more in a second. First, a happy Clubhouse anniversary to you, Nick. Do you have any clue how long you've been on Clubhouse? At this point it's probably around the same as Sid. Honestly, yeah, I, I thought that was kind of funny. It was like the day after Sid.

2:09 That's yeah, funny. It had to have been 2020 or 2021 because I remember when I joined Clubhouse, I had found, I think it was this room when Pedro had initially started it, and there was probably like five of us that would consistently come in every morning. It was like way early because he was doing like, safety. He was in the safety industry, and I'm in the construction industry. And some of these calls would start at like 5 or 6 in the morning. And we'd have, like, podcasting discussions with anybody who would be up that early in joining us. I think it had to have been 2020 because it was before it got like, stopped and then you guys came back in and took it over or rebooted it again.

2:53 And it's just kind of, I don't know, it's funny. Yeah, done a while. Well, I'm grateful you found it. You've been a big piece of what we've been doing. Thank you for it, Nick. And let me just dig in. Listen, I know there's a piece of news, and James Cridland is here. And James, I'll let's do this. Because these shows, these evaluation episodes take us a little longer than usual. But James, why don't you break the news for us officially here? If you can keep it relatively brief, that would be awesome. But yeah, there was a big headline that's just come across our desks and I would love for you to share. Yeah, 2, two big headlines, lots of exciting things from Spotify, as is the Spotify way.

3:34 But the big news for those of us who've been in podcasting for quite some time is that Rob Walsh, who was VP of podcast relations at Lib Syn, has left the company, which is quite a surprise and shock. So he announced it on his own show, which is weirdly not hosted on Lib Syn anymore. Read into that what you will. So a big change in terms of that. He will be at Pod Fest next week, as many of us will, so hopefully we'll be able to see him there. And who knows, maybe you'll get a little exclusive with him while you're there. Interesting and a shame. I don't mean to be giggling and stuff about this because it is a shame and Rob is a certainly a staple in this industry and we wish him well.

4:18 I'm very curious to hear what he'll be up to next. James, did you have something else? No, I was just going to agree with you and I'm looking forward to finding out what he's doing next as well. It doesn't sound as if he's got anything lined up quite yet, but there is no one who knows more about podcasting than Rob does. So I'm sure that he will find somewhere and I wish him all the best. Absolutely. And if he I'll have to reach out if he wants a place to come hang with other podcasters, it would be great to have him come here every so often as well. All right, so before we jump into today's evaluation, I do want to take a minute to remind everybody why we do these sessions and why they matter so much. Especially for indie podcasters.

4:59 These evaluations are about getting a set of fresh and thoughtful ears on a real podcast, listening the way a real audience would, and talking honestly about what's landing, what's confusing, and what could be even stronger. Most podcasters never get this. You publish an episode, maybe you see some downloads, maybe you get a review or two, but you rarely get context. You don't get to hear how new listeners experience your show or where they lean in or where they drift. And that's the value here. That's about clarity. It's about confidence and small adjustments that can make a big difference over time.

5:40 And today's evaluation, I think is a great example of that. We're looking at Better Call Daddy and it's hosted by Reena Friedman Watts. The premise of the show is simple and emotional and Reena interviews interesting, sometimes well known or controversial guests and then brings the conversation to her dad who weighs in with his perspective and that happens at the end of the show. The show explores relationships, legacy and a little bit of father daughter dynamics. And also maybe it maybe doesn't necessarily have to be daughter father child dynamics because I know that she often talks to her guests about their relationships with their dad. This episode of her show is a little different. Rena submitted an older episode, which is this is kind of a first for us since we've been doing this for what, maybe 8 episodes or so now?

6:35 It's from 2022. And she did that very intentionally. I actually asked her if she wanted to resubmit something that was more recent. It's just so we could give her a more current critique, and she said no. She was very clear that this episode really makes her proud. And as she put it, the episode made starting her podcast worth it. So today is about looking at a moment that meant something deeply to this podcaster, understanding why it works, and exploring how small shifts could help more listeners feel what she felt when she made it. And again, like I said at the top here, I think that this is going to be very helpful for any podcaster or yeah, for any podcaster, a lot of podcasters out there, because I think we can often times apply some of these learnings to what we're doing.

7:31 So with that, I want to jump right in and find out from everybody. Maybe let's go with some first impressions. What was your gut reaction in the first few minutes? And remember that we're going to get into things like intros and things like interview technique and stuff like that. I want to know from you just what was your gut reaction in the first few minutes BC good morning, go for it. I thought Jerry Springer was dead. Yeah, that's right. I should say that thank you. Thank you for leading. With that, she had Jerry Springer as her guest, the late Jerry Springer as her guest. And yeah, I'm sure that would have been a little surprising if you didn't realize I was giving you guys an older episode to listen to.

8:18 And granted, she seems to have interviewed him not too long before his passing. So that that, you know, just timing wise, I was like, oh, OK, cool. I have to double check when the episode came out, but that was my initial reaction. OK, that's fair. That's fair. Ralph, how about you? Good morning, My good morning. My initial reaction was, oh, this is cool. Jerry Springer. That's somebody I want to hear. Yeah. I mean, I can tell you guys actually in my some of my radio days when I was an intern for that favorite morning show that I've referenced before, one of the things me and my best friend who was doing this with me, what we would do is at lunchtime, we would go into the break room and turn on Jerry Springer.

8:58 It would just entertain us through and through. And we also used to we used to always in our normal conversations, used to always, you know, talk like Jerry Springer. He has that thick New York accent. All right, Sid, I'm coming to you and then Dr. wanted to chime in as well. What was your initial reaction? Good morning everybody. I actually really enjoyed this show. I not a huge fan of political talk when there was a lot of political talk in the show. Interesting that it was 3 about four years ago almost strike and some of the political things that he talked about are very relevant in today's world. But I don't really enjoy political shows, but I actually really enjoyed this. She has a very natural way of having a conversation. Is she?

9:42 You could tell she knew the guest. I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this one. Thank you. Yeah. Not only did she know Jerry, but she worked for Jerry. She was, I know, at the very least, an intern out of college for the Jerry Springer show. I can't remember if she actually also ended up getting a paying job for the show as well. But yeah, that's how that's the tie there. So Dave, just put something in the chat that I think is very important for us to talk about a little bit later. So don't lose his chat, OK? All right, well, let's just a little little sneak preview. Call her Daddy. Better call Daddy is a pretty is pretty close in name. What was that ever a topic of conversation in the past?

10:23 Yeah, that's a good question. I thought about that too. As a matter of fact, I thought about that because this morning when I went to search for her website or pull up her website, I accidentally started started calling it call her Daddy. And yeah, I had to delete and redo. So, yeah, I don't know if that was intentional, but quite frankly, I think my guess is it's it was. And I know Rena a little bit. Let me just throw that out there. She's joined us here once or twice, not recently, but she's been on this show over the course of our, what did I tell you guys almost four years. Is that right, Dr. You wanted to chime in. Y'all kind of stole my Thunder. I thought that the fact that she used to work with him kind of buried the lead a little bit.

11:07 And also, I believe that she eventually became one of the producers. That's what I got from. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. And also with her, and I know she insisted on this specific episode, and this is going to be helpful for the listeners. I'm not so sure it's going to be as helpful to Rayna because she has evolved, everyone evolves. And certainly after what was when was this 22, OK? So certainly after four years, she has evolved. Even her intro, which it's normally our thing that we critique has evolved also.

11:50 So for listeners out there, my hope is that you submit something that is within six months. Yeah, you know what, Dr. That's a good point. Maybe we will add that as a requirement. Although again, look, I'm looking forward to breaking this whole thing down because there's a lot to share, a lot to go through. So it's not like this is a waste of time. It's not a waste of time. The listeners will definitely learn something from this. But I just think that in order for Reyna to get the full impact of it, it should have been something more. I agree, Dr. And I took one of your suggestions you a few days ago when we were talking about this show, you had suggested we should really play her newer intro as well to, you know, show some of that evolution. I will play those back-to-back for everybody, as a matter of fact, why not?

12:41 Now? This way our audience can get a little familiar with Rena so and her show. So I will play this intro and then we'll talk a little bit about it and then we'll play the newer 1 and maybe talk just a smidge about that one too. Now, I, in Full disclosure, I like to share a lot of behind the scenes with you all because you're podcasters and hearing some behind the scenes stuff I think is helpful to you. And as I share that with you, of course, the idea that I wanted to share just completely shoots out of my head, which is quite embarrassing and a frustrating thing with ADHD. Oh yes, I I don't have the whoosh sounds. I didn't produce these things with the whoosh sounds. I realized that late last night and of course I probably lost about an hour's sleep for that this morning. But anyway, here we go.

13:34 Here is the series intro that she was starting her podcast with in 2022. Welcome to the. Better call daddy show. This is Big Daddy. Oh my God, that's hysterical. More stories you are not going to. Believe. And advice that you didn't know that you needed. Five stars. 5. And a half stars. We're creating a legacy, one call at a time. Here comes my daddy. Your problem is is that you like me? My dad is my hero. Always be there to take your call and you'll never be in too much trouble if your dad is around. Oh boy. I think I'm a pretty cool dude.

14:15 Better call Daddy. The safe space for controversy. This is your host, Rena Friedman Watts. No, this is your host, Celia Watts. More inspirational stories, more daddy drama and more laughs. Hey, a lot of these things, I don't know where you get them from. It sounds like they're coming from when I look in the mirrors. Damn the public. Damn the public. So let's get a few impressions from everybody. Your thoughts on the Better Call Daddy intro? I have thoughts, but I wanted to let some of you go first. My initial thoughts were I'm happy that she put a music bit in there pretty early because otherwise the length of the intro for me would have been a little bits because sometimes I use that to to not dictate, but to kind of measure. OK, Do I want to sit here and wait for how long this will take to end before the actual meet begins of the story? So I'm happy she put that music bit in there because it did kind of fade a little bit as those little sections went through and then it kind of built back in to kind of let us know, OK, we're nearing the end of the intro now. It's going to start.

15:23 Pay attention. It's about to begin. So I appreciated that. Thank you BC I agree with you. I did feel like it was a little long. I'll bite my tongue though and share my thoughts after Jonathan and Ralph and Nick share. Oh, and Sid now as well. So let's hear from everybody. Let me go to Jonathan because we haven't talked to him yet this morning and then I'll go down the line. Go ahead, Jonathan. Good morning. I feel it was a little bit long and it felt a little bit overproduced. It just didn't need to be that much. Here's how I put it, and I really I mean this. I don't mean this to sound negative, right, but I felt like the intro was a little self indulgent.

16:06 In other words, I felt like we could have trimmed that down and still gotten the same effect, the same feel like, let me come out of the gate here First. Let me back up and say I love how it started with her kids. I feel like that's a pattern disrupt, right? Like I think a lot of us will press play on a podcast. We're going to expect an adult voice. I loved that. And you know, it kind of fits the charm of this is somewhat of a family thing, but I just felt like there were too many clips of the family. Without context, it's hard to sink your teeth into it. So my suggestion would have been to really cut that down. It's a minute long almost of an intro. My suggestion was going to be to cut it down, honestly to no more than 30 seconds, but my preference would be 1015 seconds when the skip button exists.

17:03 Why would, why produce so much of an intro? Because I, I, I think it's safe to say we know a lot of people know how to use it and aren't shy to use it. Ralph, you wanted to add something. Go ahead. What I was going to say is for me, the intro was a huge disappointment because I had read that Jerry Springer was going to be on this. And then I heard the intro and I was like, the audio wasn't great. It seemed like it was all jumbled up and I'm like, what did I just click on? If that's fair? That's why I'm suggesting maybe this be more like a 15 second intro. That's very clear and to the point because this is a, this is her series intro. This is the intro that she will play at the beginning of every episode. And she does a great job of after that introducing the guest, like right after that introducing the guest.

17:49 But if this were shorter, I think it would have gotten us there quick, quicker and would have satisfied the listener that much more. Let's go to Nick. I'm kind of in the same boat to what a lot of people had said to me, which like after listening to the episode and understanding her background like this is a good episode to get an understanding of kind of her roots. The intro seemed very much like a television talk show introduction. Which like I was with her TV background. Yeah, A. 100% So it makes sense why she did it, but I feel like they would had there would have had to have been visuals that accompanied it. Because I'm just thinking as all these clips are happening, like it's flashing to all these people talking.

18:32 Like it reminds me of like a Jerry Springer introduction or teaser to the show. And obviously being audio only, you just kind of lose some of that like power that that would have if you had the visuals attached to it. I think it could have been a little confusing for people like Ralph was saying, you don't really know. It doesn't give you a strong sense of what the show's about. You get a feel right. But I want to know out of the gate as a new listener that this is a show that yes, what what she has these different guests and they talk about sometimes some controversial things and they sometimes talk about family life. But I want to know the why is this called better called Daddy, Right? And yes, we hear her dad, but that's not enough for me to understand what this what the premise, what the hook is of this show. I want to hear out of the gate that she interviews interesting people.

19:23 And at the end, her and her dad talk about it. And then there's some context. When you start playing little clips of her dad, you get a little bit of a feel for who he is, so it it feels like it ties it all together. Yeah, I wasn't a fan of the of the intro. I didn't know who the girl, the little girl was. I thought it was kind of neat and I don't know, just was too busy for me and it didn't really give me a clear idea of what the show was about. So I was not a fan. As much as I liked the show, I was not a fan of the intro. Thank you, Sid. And so now we're going to play this. I pulled from what I believe, at least at the time yesterday that I pulled it. I believe this is her newer intro. This is the most recent episode of her show.

20:04 And you're going to hear, I believe you're going to hear a big difference. I would say that the only thing that I was slightly disappointed about is it's actually a little longer, but I think it accomplishes more of what we've been talking a little bit about. So let me go ahead and play that. I'm your host, Reena Friedman Watts, and this is the better call. Daddy Show. Hey, this is Big Daddy Wayne Friedman, so. That's my grandpa, Grandpa. You ready for more daddy drama? My dad is my number one hero and #1 fan. And I'm a pretty cool dude. All right, Season 4, baby. Here we go. More stories you're not going to believe. And maybe you will after you listen.

20:46 Five stars. 5 1/2 stars, 2 thumbs up. You are a pretty cool dude. Don't stand on the table and damn the public. You'll get some words of wisdom to live by. Here we go again. Better call Daddy. You know what your problem is? You like me? Yeah, I do. Each week I interview a guest, share the stories with my dad, and then he weighs in at the end of every episode with his wisdom and wit. Everyone from influential players to inspirational fathers and of course, controversial people. Grandpa, my mom is calling. Creating that legacy one call at a time. And welcome to the better call Daddy Show. Where's the music? All right, I'm going to fade it out here because this is probably another 1015 seconds, but I do I it's cute to have the little custom song there.

21:39 But again, Rena, with all due respect and I hope you know that I do have a ton of respect for you and what you do. I I think that this is all just too much. As a new listener, I would be starting to get impatient. I loved how Rena did that. Better explanation or any explanation, but she did a really good job. I think she nailed the premise of the show, what she does, who her dad is, why you know, why she's bringing them in. Like, I think it all works much better. I think you can get rid of a lot of those little sound bites. The sound bite montage keeps them in.

22:20 I'm not trying to tell you to get rid of everything. I like that your kids are in there, like I said, and I like that your dad's in there for sure, but I think you can tighten this up a great deal. To me this feels more like a social media teaser for the show than an intro to the podcast. Like she could have cut it off at the explanation or did the explanation had a few little sound bites like what she's got and then cut straight into it? I think that would be like the perfect formula for what she's already got. 100% and Nick, I will, I will say this out loud because you did say something. Another positive thing too is which was the audio quality was way better on this one as well. That's certainly a big improvement. Yes, Sid, go ahead.

23:04 I really liked it much better. She could have stopped at Season 4. We just said, now let's get into Season 4. She could have stopped right there and it would have been perfect. I think. I think it's still like too much too much music at the end, but I really enjoyed this one much better than the one that I heard on the show I listen to. Agreed. Let's check in with Jonathan. Go ahead, Jonathan. I think overall, like this intro actually matched her branding that she has on her website. It feels like a cohesive piece of content now. So honestly, I liked it a lot better. Again, it was way too long and she could have cut I think even a little bit at the beginning and then a chunk at the end could have been clean taken out. But yeah.

23:46 I might have even used a little bit of the beginning of that theme song that started playing there at the end, just to kick it off and then fade it down a bit and then do your whole intro like you were saying. Jonathan, Ralph, you want to chime in? Yeah, I had an idea for her actually. I think the kids are kind of cute, but I do didn't put it in the introduction, but that could be a cool section of the show. Maybe once she gets into the spiel of what she's going to cover on that show and then maybe flashback to something like that. I think that would be impressive and impactful. But at the front end, it's just too much. Thank you, Ralph. Good suggestion. Here's what I want to do since we just started talking a little bit about the branding, I think it might be good to talk a little bit. And then we've got more clips to play for everybody as well. But Jonathan, let me come to you first. What did you think about the overall branding? Let's talk a little bit.

24:39 And again, let's talk a little bit about the cover art because we are an audio first show and if we spend too much time on it, I think we're going to start boring our audience, right? But I think it's important to call out some of the branding. So let's go with the cover art first. Jonathan, your thoughts? I wasn't a big fan of the cover art. I didn't I don't like the cartoony images and it didn't match what her overall package and branding looks like right now. So I thought her website branding was much, much stronger than her podcast cover branding and matching something to that would be I think a much better option And having the, you know, the title of the podcast be clear and then you can put the episode information on there. That would just, I think it would be much better. I did do a mock up for that since you know, our regular mock up person is not here.

25:28 But that's right. Thank you for doing that. Yeah, absolutely. I have to say, I did see Jonathan's mock up and it looks really, really good comparatively to the current artwork for the show. And for me, it's like when I look at the when I look at it, it reminds me of like this should be like if the nanny sitcom did its own podcast. That's what it reminds me of. She looks like Fran Schaefer in this artwork. And so I'm like, I don't, I don't know if that's, I think that's the the actress's name from the from the show, but I'm like, I don't see how that aesthetic ties into what the concept is supposed to be. Gotcha. Well, listen, so I'll give my thoughts for a second and say I do like the cover art. I'll say this.

26:11 It's very eye-catching and I think it works. You know, like the fact that Jonathan doesn't isn't a big fan of the cartoon look. OK. And that that can be subjective, right? But when we talk about being eye-catching among a sea of different podcast cover art, I think it does stand out. And I think it does do a decent job of conveying the at least speaking to the title. Right? Because it's her with a phone in her hand and her dad kind of coming out of the phone, her cartoon dad coming out of the phone, almost like a ghost looking thing where he's. Yeah. Anyway, I think it works really well. But I think the big point Jonathan just made is that it doesn't match the rest of her branding, her website. I think it's really well done.

27:00 The branding looks great. It looks sharp. It looks professional. It peaks my interest, so I want that cover art to match the branding. Jonathan, I think did a good job of at least showing what that could look like. Maybe it's not exactly the rendition to go with, but it it puts you on the path. So we'll share that in the show notes. Jonathan, can we share that Canva link in our show notes that you just shared in the chat? Absolutely. So we'll do that so that our audience can hear what we're talking about. And now Dr. if you have a minute, I wanted to come to you because I know you tend when we do these evaluations, you like to focus on titles and descriptions and that's all part of the branding. So I wanted to get your take.

27:45 Well, I do think it's too close to call her daddy. And why do we think that's a problem? By the way, 'cause I hear, I've seen it in the chat too. And quite frankly, I look at it and think great strategy. It feels similar to better call Daddy. But it I'm sorry to call her daddy. I don't want my audience to get confused because they will probably go to the more popular one, the one that is, you know, has all the money behind them and think, is this what my friend just did? This is my OK, this is what I was told to tune into. I wouldn't mind having some of her audience come over to me. That would be great.

28:27 But it's a double edged sword. So I would probably steer away from having it so close. So this is really more, I think, less for Rena at this point, and I'll explain why in a second and more for the audience who's maybe thinking about naming a podcast. Because Rena's established this now as her brand and she's 400 plus episodes in. She recently got recognized as a top podcast from Medium. I don't think she has any plans or intention of changing the name exactly. And overall, maybe this is too early in our conversation for me to say this, but I'm going to say I'll just put it out there. I think that it would have been a better thing to incorporate Dad into the interview more than just an afterthought or the takeaways or something like that. For instance, if Dad loved his 59 Chevy growing up, why not do an interview with someone who collects 59 Chevys or something like that and have them both interview and then you'll hear her father start to reminisce and stuff like that. Then it becomes less of this show, this show title and show as a tribute to daddy and more of a, you know, he's really involved in this.

29:49 Do you know what I'm saying? I do know what you're saying. And, and I think Ralph just made a great point in the chat. Ralph, will you share it here? What I was going to say is for format, what I think would be much more impactful is if she started talking to her dad sort of at the beginning of the episode and kind of set the table and then got to the interview and then we'd be able to say, OK, cool. Now I want to hear what dad has to say. But because when I listen to this particular one episode, I kept saying to myself, what in the world does this have to do with her dad? I couldn't hear. That was very much an afterthought, very much a well, I have daddy in the titles. I need to bring him in. That's the knee jerk reaction. I knew that that wasn't it, but I was trying to put myself in the average listener's shoes.

30:34 Yeah. And Dave in the chat says, isn't this a reaction show? Dad responds to her guest or topic. Yes. And that's why Dave, I think Ralph makes a great suggestion. Let's introduce the audience to Dad and the episode at the same time. And little side note for people to really understand the concept, what Rena does is she does the whole interview, puts the the episode together and then hands it off to her dad, who listens. And then she sits down with her dad and records a session with him, short session with him discussing the that actual interview that pick up at the end. It's very organic. Sometimes it does not stay on topic, right? They have a little bit of banter and sometimes maybe get a little off topic.

31:18 Let me piggyback on to Ralph's idea. I really do like that idea because I just think it's important for us. Even if her dad is more, you know, just of a response type type of thing, I still think it's important for the audience to start to get to know him a little bit right away. I think that's and then I think to add on to what Ralph was saying, I'm going to date myself for a second. Why not do this a little bit like pop up video, the old VH1 show, where they could be talking about something, her and her guest, and then maybe there's a sound effect, a whoosh, something where Dad comes in and gives his two cents about what they're talking about and then go back to the interview.

31:59 Like it could be confusing if you don't do it right. But Rena's ATV producer, I think she would probably be able to figure out how to make that work. But that could be another way to do it. This way it feels more like the dad's a part of the show all the way through. Good suggestions and I liked the banter at the end. Just FYII liked that her and her dad connect at the end and we get more of Rena's back story as far as her TV careers, specifically with Jerry Springer, and we'll play some of those clips as well. Go ahead, Sid. As it belates back to the question about the title of the show, I don't listen to any other one with a similar title. Right. It's called her Daddy, but it's so close that I didn't.

32:42 This is not me, but the names are so close. It could be perceived that she's trying to ride the coattails of that really successful Uber huge show by having a name that's really close. But I also agree with something somebody else said, which is I could find the wrong show. I could find the wrong show because the names are so close and you think I'm going to start listening to her, but then I end up listening to something else that she loses a potential listener, right, long term listener. But I also understand she's almost 500 episodes in. I'm not changing the name of my show. And I went through this personally in considering in the in kind of what I'm doing for season 7 of my show. I consider changing the name of my show and the people that I talked to were like said that the name of the show is directly identifiable to you. Why would you change it?

33:30 And when you get so far down the road, you can't change it? But for me, the only thing was just the play of words. It's really close to each other. And it could be perceived that she's trying to ride the coattails of that Uber success. I want the time in specifically on this piece as well, and again, primarily for other podcasters that are starting their shows. Like just getting into it, trying to find a name like something like this where Call Her Daddy is so wildly popular. I could see in an instance or probably a lot of instances, if someone came up to you and said, hey, have you ever listened to Better Call Daddy? The first response is going to be like, yeah, I have not knowing or not realizing that it's a different show from Call Her Daddy. And I think just that confusion alone, like go listen to episode 153 of Better Call Daddy.

34:22 Someone just naturally going in and going to call her Daddy and picking that episode instead because they don't realize that they're different. I call her daddy. Name is people recognize that name even if they've never listened to the podcast themselves. But I think that alone could create some massive confusion. Obviously in this case, like we mentioned, she's built the brand. She's obviously got a following behind it. So I mean, it is what it is. It is just going to be harder to get new audiences that are already familiar with the other brand. Some say it's a, it could be an SEO nightmare. I don't have a problem with it personally, and I don't mind even if that was her strategy to ride the coattails a little bit.

35:03 And you know what? If some people find my show because they were looking for call her dad, call her daddy instead, OK, great, awesome. And if they go, the other thing we have to think about is these could be very different audiences. Her target audience is probably, I'm guessing here, but I think her target audience is skews a little bit older than the Call Her Daddy audience. So the call her Daddy audience may not even know. I'm sorry, let me finish that. She might, her audience might not even know Call Her Daddy just because Call Her Daddy is one of the most popular shows. Let's not assume that everybody knows what it is because there are people out there, I promise you that don't know that just have no idea of the top five shows of 2025. We know because we live and breathe podcasting. But when you put Daddy in the search, no matter where it is in your call her, Daddy better call Daddy, it's still going to come up.

36:01 And it's probably going to come up before hers comes up, you know, in the in the line of things. And my question is, yeah, I don't mind the better call Daddy, you know what I'm saying? Yes. The two shows are completely different, wildly opposite audiences. Like the better Call Daddy show is in many cases more of like a family show and I've listened to Call Her Daddy and it is like a while ago. I haven't listened to it recently so I don't know, maybe it's changed. It is very much on the more inappropriate side of things, right? Not a family show. So if Better Call Daddy audience members landed on Call Her Daddy thinking it was the correct show, you would have a very negative impact on our audience.

36:46 OK, I'm going to go to BC and BC before you speak, I just want to share the one thing that I that's not sitting well. Like you guys are all making great points and what's not sitting well is like so now because call her Daddy is so popular, nobody can use daddy in their titles anymore. I just went on to pod linked and searched Daddy and there are plenty of other shows that have daddy in the title and I don't think they're all trying to ride the coattails of Call Her Daddy. There's a couple. I see one here, Teach me Daddy. I could see that. But there's Dear Daddy, the Daddy Dom podcast, the Pod Daddy. Why now does she get to own that word?

37:26 That doesn't sit with me. It's the word call. It's the fact that the word call is in her title and call. I see. It's the combination. It's the combination. I just say that in 2020 is when Call Her Daddy started popping, which is the same year and her podcast was actually out a little bit before it seems late spring when this Call Her Daddy started popping. So I she might have been on the early side of it. Call Her Daddy was out in 2018, but it didn't start really gaining traction until 2020. OK, I think we've talked enough about BC. I'll let you close us out so that we can dig more into the episode itself.

38:07 My thoughts, audiences aside, SEO aside, searching aside, my one practical concern would only be if one party had actually trademarked the phrasing because I wouldn't want anyone, party or the other to get into any kind of legal trouble because of the phrasing. I mentioned that also because you mentioned our mutual colleague yesterday, Alex Sanfilippo, who has a podcast called Podcasting Made Simple, and I'm working with a colleague right now building a consulting website, and that same phrasing was used on the website. I'm like, OK, let's be careful here. I don't know if this is trademarked elsewhere, so let's be careful how we use the. Phrasing.

38:48 Thank you BC now I want to get into some clips. We talked a little bit about it in the intro and again, it's a show from 2022. It was earlier in her podcasting career. The audio quality is not the best, but I'd say, and I think others have agreed here on this stage, that it's still acceptable in the sense that we could hear Rena and Jerry very clearly. It was just very echoey, which could turn some people off. So for maximum impact, if she didn't have a good mic or a recording environment at the time, she was just kind of hitting record and just pushing forward anyway. When Yeah. And this was again in 2022, she could have ran it through offonic.

39:29 Offonic has been around and was a thing even a few years back or something similar. But at the end of the day, again, the audio was, in my opinion, acceptable. It just could have been a lot better and has since improved greatly on her newer episodes. OK, so with that, the first clip is her establishing, in my opinion, some really good rapport with Jerry Springer right out of the gate because even though we know that they work together, it clearly had been some time since they had talked and he didn't seem to work directly with her to the point that he really remembers her. I'm going to play it and then we can talk a little bit more about it.

40:14 Let me make sure I'm pressing the right one. Yes, I am. Here we go. Today's guest almost needs no introduction. He had one of the longest running talk shows in history and he started my career. Jerry Springer, welcome. Wow, this is so surreal. I mean no. You are so nice. Oh, it's been years. You Remember Me? Well, I remember you as a kid. You dear. You worked under what's? What's his? Name Toby. Toby. Yes, Toby. He was a character. Yes, he was. Yesterday I caught up with Cheyenne for 3 1/2 hours. Oh my God. Right.

40:56 Yeah. Isn't that crazy? I feel like when you experience something like the Jerry Springer show, only people that have experienced the Jerry. Springer Show. Understand what that was like. There wouldn't be just like a club. One piece of feedback I would give here is she dropped. She does some name dropping and to the audience it just doesn't. It just doesn't land in my opinion. Makes me feel like it's inside baseball and I'm missing something. I think it's important that she establishes that rapport with Jerry and starts calling out names and stuff. But I don't know that you need all of you don't need the name dropping for the audience.

41:37 But I will say that she does call back to one of the names she references later in the show because that one of those people had a question for Jerry and so she calls back to it. So it kind of helps tie it a little bit. But again, I just don't think it's necessary. Yeah, and I know at my initial eval for the show was that she always sent her like really energetic, really enthusiastic and genuine. But now kind of rehearing at least that part. I do think there were a couple moments that that felt a little performative. Not saying that she intended that or that she wasn't being genuine, but the but there were some inflection points that to me were like I don't know if this sounds supernatural. BC you know what I think it is, what I heard was it was more of a giddiness. I think that she was so honored and excited that he was there, that she was building that rapport for herself just as much as she was for him to just kind of loosen up and get comfortable.

42:32 And I also wonder if maybe there was just too quick of a cut between cursing Jerry Stringer than going into Oh my God, this is amazing. Maybe if there was a just a tiny bit more space there, the flow would have been a bit, would have come off a bit more natural. I agree with you there. I noticed that too. We all fall into this trap of stacking questions. And in her case, she wasn't stacking a question, but she said welcome Jerry Springer. And then she's like, he needs no introduction, welcome Jerry Springer. And then she immediately went into talking. I think when you welcome somebody to your show, you should pause and let them respond where she just jumped right in with something rather than pausing and letting him respond. I agree.

43:17 And I think that is because she pre recorded the intro and then after she said welcome Jerry Springer, then she edited in the interview and that was the I guess most natural point, I'm assuming that she could find. But I think that's a really key point when we when we're editing our own podcasts, I think a lot of us might not think that all the way through, right? And again, these are like minor details, right Where then that's the idea of these evals. It's just how can we help you improve these shows that much more or where are their areas for improvement? But like my point a moment ago about the name dropping stuff that that's somewhat subjective and it's just a suggestion. It's not a make or break in my opinion. It could turn off a few listeners, yes. But you know, if that's just something that she wants to keep in, that's her prerogative.

44:09 OK, love this next clip. Because the audience gets to know the host immediately while also build, continuing to build that rapport with the guest. It's a great strategy, especially when you know the person that you're interviewing. So I'll play this and then we can talk about it if we feel so inclined. That was an amazing experience. I mean, 27 years Diesel, yeah. It was like, truthfully, it was my first job out of college. I drove up to Chicago right out of college. Where were you in? College. I went to Purdue. Yeah, I interviewed at WGN. This is so crazy. And in the same courtyard, I saw a flyer that Jerry Springer was looking for interns the same trip.

44:55 And so I was like, Oh my God. So I called the number. I got a hold of Nathan Cotterman. Do you remember? He worked for Rochelle. Oh, Nathan, Yeah. Oh my, these names are coming back. And same day like I walked over to NBC tower from WGN, it was just right across the way and I graduated 2 weeks later and started as an intern. So again, I just like the way that we both learn a little bit about Rena and hear her natural way with somebody. It feels really good. She's got this confidence about her and this there's something comforting about listening to her that I that I really appreciated.

45:38 Let's talk a little bit about her interviewing style. Did anyone I know we talked a little bit about it earlier. I feel like somebody had mentioned it, but how does everybody feel about her interview style, her tactics, how she gets her guests talking? I really enjoyed her interview style and how she kind of teased a little bit of the stories out of the situations. And I mean, he's Jerry Springer, so he did run away with the conversation a couple times. That could have been reeled in a little bit. But overall, I thought, you know, because when you're looking to get the stories out of people, you got to kind of let them go a little bit. So maybe a little post on those things. But yeah, overall, I thought she did a fantastic job letting them, letting him tell the stories. And I actually loved hearing how Jerry Springer got his show. I thought that was really interesting. I loved the 1st 15 minutes.

46:28 I'm with Sid, I'm not into political stuff. I did that for five years as ATV producer and didn't really enjoy it then either. But that again, subjective, right? That's just not my thing it and it does, as Sid had pointed out earlier, it does take that very political turn and Jerry's very passionate and as some people may know, he also has been in politics. But you know what the problem is, is that with that passion, it created some tangents and some of his answers went on and on. And he clearly has very strong opinions. But even if you agree with his opinions, it might still feel a little bit long and drawn out.

47:10 So I think that there are two options in a situation like this. One is cut the guest off at some point, like literally during the interview, which I get is harder to do with a mentor, a friend, a high profile guest. Your other option is what Jonathan was just saying edit things down in post production. And listen, I know personally how challenging it is to do content editing, especially when it's a high profile person, because you you're afraid, at least for me, I'm afraid that I'm going to cut something out. That's that maybe my audience really needed to hear.

47:51 And I feel like, well, it's somebody important, somebody famous who has a following. So I want to, I just, I feel like I I obligated to leave it all in. But I think what's important here is that you are doing a show, you're trying to also entertain people. So I think just trying to sit and just try to sit and find what are the main points here in this discussion? And do I really need all of those details to get those points across? The thing about sensitive topics or hot topics like politics or religion or sexual orientation or whatever it is, those can be very polarizing topics.

48:35 And they have an opportunity to also bring you guests, but they also have this opportunity to lose your audience if they don't align with the beliefs that are being talked about. So for me, I don't talk about any of that on my show. I keep it very neutral from that perspective because I don't want my listeners to feel alienated. And so I think when you're going down this path and somehow the conversation as the hose it is the conversation leans to something you don't really want to talk about, you can bring it back and bring it back really quickly. Say, hey, I really appreciate that, Mark, but let's move on to this. And I'd like to understand this question again. You can edit things out as you want to edit things out, but as the host, remember, it's your show and it's your job to guide the conversation as best as possible.

49:23 And if you're like me and trying to avoid certain topics didn't guide it so that it doesn't cross into those into those boundaries for me. Thank you, Sid. I was trying to find the right words to say exactly what you said, so I appreciate that you did. And I'm going to go to Dr. in a second. I just wanted to say the one thing that we have to think about as far as if we're alienating our audience because it's a hot topic, a political topic, it's very possible. And from what I know of what I've heard of other episodes and not many, I have no offense to Rena. I haven't heard, I, I'm not like a regular listener of show, but I feel like maybe her audience might learn more towards Jerry's perspectives anyway. So it might be if she knows her audience and look, let's face it, Jerry, Jerry leans left.

50:12 I'll just put it that way for now, OK? And so maybe her audience is more leaning left and so maybe that suits her audience. So we we have to think about that too. Maybe she just knows who her target audience is and that serves them well. Keep in mind that in the intro, I think she mentioned that this is the uncensored place, the controversial place. So she set up the fact that, you know, some things are going to be said that are provocative and good for her for doing that. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's important if you are going to do that. I think she does a great job of, you know, setting that table so people know what they're getting into because I know we're short on time, but I do want to try to get to some more clips.

50:59 Give me bear with me one second. All right, let's play. Let's you know what let's because it is call her daddy. Let's let's play a little bit of the segment with her dad. Good morning, Vietnam. Oh my God, Dad, do you remember what a stress case I was before each show that I produced and how I would call you in a complete and utter total panic? You've been doing that your whole life. It's called butterflies before the game. If you didn't do it, it wouldn't be natural. It wouldn't be where you oh, that's how you get your juices flowing, That's what makes you human. And then you perform brilliantly. But seriously, Dad, like, do you remember when I would call and I didn't have any guests? Like the day before the show was going to tape and I'm like, I guess I'll be here all night.

51:45 I'm literally going to be pounding the phone all night going through binders and binders of numbers to get people to come because I'm not leaving until it's booked. Sometimes your best comes out in the two-minute drill. Sometimes our death is not where we play the game all day or all week long. Sometimes it has to be done and one and the last second is how you win a game. So I liked how this opened up. It kind of piggybacked off of how the show started, where she gets back into gives us more of her back story, more of what went on behind the scenes for her on the Jerry Springer show. And I like that. And I like the dynamic of daddy coming in and giving his insightful wisdom around what she was experiencing.

52:28 And then they do go and and talk a little bit more about the episode. Dr. did point out that sometimes they they would go a little bit away from what I was actually being discussed during the interview. But again, there's a little bit of a charm to that that I like. I think it helps establish the dad character a little bit. But yeah, I think that it could be a little more sharp and concise. But I think maybe that's just that's just her and her dad and in the dynamic. And if that's kind of what the foundation of the show, then so be it. I know we're short on time that I really wanted to get this in her show notes specifically for this episode that we are talking about.

53:10 You know, normally show notes are about the episode. This was Jerry Springer's entire bio and I get the impression looking at some of her other show notes, I get the impression that she is a podcaster who wants to use up the entire maximum possible characters in show notes. Because this was this was long, you had to keep scrolling to get to the end of it. I think there's an opportunity there to do something. And I looked at the show notes from the most recent one and she has really switched them up quite a bit. She puts keywords in there now and she, you know, there's a section at the bottom with keywords that says keywords. So she has switched them up quite a bit. But yeah, show notes, yeah.

53:58 And good. I'm glad you pointed that that out. And I know we've said it several Times Now, but it is important to call these things out that, you know, if we're if our audience goes now and looks at her show and only focuses on this older episode, we want to make sure to point out things like the show notes were too long. Clearly Rena has evolved and has fixed that up since then. So it's important to just call these things out for our audience who may be struggling with their show notes. I guess what I should do here is in the spirit of Jerry Springer, I should maybe share some final thoughts with you. So first, Rena, I want to say this really clear. This episode works because you work your rapport with Jerry is real.

54:46 The 1st 10 to 15 minutes are genuinely strong. The conversation feels natural. It feels relaxed and grounded, and that's not something every host can pull off. It's also obvious that the episode meant a lot to you, which you had told us so. And when a creator, when a creator says this episode made starting my podcast worse, that that matters. And that emotional connection is worth protecting. The biggest opportunity here isn't about fixing something that's broken. It's about making what's already what already works clearer and easier for new listeners to follow. So a few things to consider just to tie it all together.

55:28 The concept I think is compelling, but first time listeners need clearer framing early. Who Daddy is and why his voice matters should be unmistakable, not something people have to figure out until the end. And again, her new era intro definitely helps set that up better. But if we're going to establish her daddy as a pivotal point, put him in the title, put him in the cover art, talk about him in the intro, I think we need as an audience to get to know him better from right out of the gate. And then Jerry. Jerry's passion is part of the appeal. But some of those tangents run long. As we said, that's less an interview issue and more of a post production opportunity. The small edits can be can make big moments land harder, ending on a strong line.

56:19 And this is what I didn't get to is the outro I thought was awesome. I thought it was clear. I think she could have easily just said to listen to more of these episodes go to my website as opposed to listing Apple, Spotify and all the rest. Again, the audio I'll say was acceptable, but cleaning it up in post would elevate the experience without changing the heart of the episode. And again, as we know, she does that in newer episodes. So big lessons. Clarity beats the beats cleverness. It's if listeners don't quickly understand who the show is for, they won't stick around. Record long and edit tight. Lean into your differentiator.

57:04 If you have a unique hook, make it felt throughout the episode. Meaning the dad and then end on an impact. Keep the call to action simple. So this episode is really a great reminder that strong podcasts aren't about perfection, they're about connection. And when the connection is already there, the work is about clarifying and amplifying, not reinventing it. So we're going to do this again tomorrow, not another evaluation, but we're going to all join together again to tomorrow, talk more things, podcasting, and of course, celebrate our wins from this past week. So come join us tomorrow. Thank you all for a great conversation, Rena. I hope this was helpful.

57:47 And until tomorrow, make it a great day. Everybody take care.