#29 Understanding What's ACTUALLY Happening in Government, Economy, & Society, Through the Lens of History & Philosophy, with Gary Arnell

Gentlemen, welcome to the Be The Man podcast.

I'm your host.

Greg Denning. Gary and I are friends from a long time back and the first time we met was in Wilderness where the backcountry of the 70 and then since then we've got a lot of great conversations longer interactions and whatever we get together it's usually in the wilderness but I love like my memories but Gary are either around books and great discussions or the Wilderness or both and we just have one We are we're back in a Wilderness in Zions Andy and I were hiking out of this big canyon.

We're just talking philosophy and books in life and it was awesome.

So I'm like and I've got to have it on the show.

So Gary, welcome brother.

And and introduce yourself, give background.

And then let's dive in like, you have this this Mission and this message you want to share.

And I want to share that with our audience here.

Thanks.

Greg and thanks for having me.

I grew up in Southern, California.

I'm a husband.

I'm a father, I'm I'm a disciple.

I'm an educator, and I'm an armchair or amateur skin.

I'm a student.

You know it's a student of trying to understand this world that we live in trying to understand the pursuit of of human happiness and prosperity to understand what, what is, what is the formula for the best?

You know, that we can experience as human beings trying to understand that from a philosophical perspective, from a practical perspective and so that's kind of what has led me?

To a personal Journey that led me to read the books that led me have conversations with you and that's kind of how I got into it, but I started out as an IT professional, that's that was my professional background in college and then I discovered when my oldest child was like five or six that there was this whole world besides just technical knowledge of how Western Civilization came to be and how it has done more to and poverty and slavery and illiteracy, and all these things.

Like I never learned about that.

I mean, I did get one little All piece of, you know, Plato's allegory of the cave.

One little tiny section in high school because it, you know, it and then and so since then I've been on not that was you know 20-plus years ago since that I'm just trying to understand the the formula for human success and prosperity and happiness.

Well what's made you different?

Because I think we all have little bit exposure here and there you think that's interesting or I'd like to learn about that someday.

A what, what made you different, what?

Because I know you are.

You're one of the most well-read people.

I know you love to read and study and think and talk about this stuff.

What's the difference?

Why, why did you chase it?

Why are you still chasing it?

Because, you know, I do have a career, you have a family.

Like you're busy guy.

What what makes a difference, you know, I think we're all, we can all feel driven to something, I feel driven to this, besides being out in the wilderness, you know, but I feel driven towards this when I'm not doing work or family.

A or Wilderness.

I this is what I do is what I feel, I feel called to it.

I guess, in a sense, I don't know where it will lead, but I feel driven to understand and explore this thing called human happiness and and nerve and flourishing, human flourishing.

Because I feel like there are competing philosophies out there, some that have very that make big promises and haven't delivered, but they're very enticing.

And so how do we steer our our children?

Children?

What got me into this?

My oldest was struggling in school in first grade.

And so I tried wanted to understand why?

Because I didn't really have a great K12 experience myself.

I struggled to and I like, I want to have him have a better experience than I did.

And so that led us to exploring lots of different educational.

Venues, I jumped out of the, IT world started, my own School whole story.

There, I went and joined another, you know, University where I got a master's degree and now working for a third school.

So I've tried to be, I've been in education, Now, for nearly 20 years, trying to provide a different kind of education that I hope will answer some of these questions.

It provides some of these insights to young people in their young years that I don't feel like that I got when I was when I was in school.

Same, yeah, not even close.

In fact, it was after University that I finally got exposed them.

Like this is what's possible, this is what's available.

Why is this not being taught?

Yes, it's cute zactly and it Give it takes, it's a lifetime.

I know you're very anxious reader.

I still average of a book a week and have for over two decades and I'm still I feel like I'm just I think I'm getting to the base.

Maybe a foundation of the beginning of an education.

Yes.

After all these years.

Yes.

Know like oh there's so much, I don't know.

But let's, let's dive in.

What?

Share?

Pre-recording here I asked him like it.

What's what's the mission?

What's the message?

Share that with Us.

And then let's dive into those fundamentals.

And those conflicting philosophies that were seeing that, you're so right.

Like on the surface, they look so good.

They feel so good and I think even have short-term results, but long-term outcomes are catastrophic.

That's so I started a Blog and a podcast.

A few years ago, a couple of years ago called culture stack.

And the reason I came up with that name is I'm from a technology background is over.

This is technology.

Because the idea is like, what's in your server?

What Hardware are you running?

What operating system running on that what applications are running on top of that, you know it's like there's this stack and I realized that culture that our society has a stack as well.

Every every society has a stack and you can look at that stack and you can tell where it's going to go or you can you can look at each part of the stack.

So for example, every every society has a starts out with a moral Foundation, you can't get away with it, doesn't have to be DS sztyc.

It can be non Andy aesthetic.

But you have profits poets or philosophers who espouse a certain moral ethic or tradition.

Again, doesn't have to be DS, dick, you know, marks was not distich, he did not, but he is a, he's a philosopher.

And in many ways, a poet and a prophet.

So, you know, Moses.

Jesus Christ, Muhammad.

You have all these individuals who espouse a certain, this is the way the world is supposed to be.

This is, if there's a heaven and Earth, this is how they relate, you know.

Evil, good and bad, right?

And wrong, the shoulds of life, that's the moral foundation.

And every society, you can go back and drill down into that and resting on top of, that is a political layer.

So you've got moral and political and political is founded by Statesmen who are people who take who read those philosophers, those poets, those profits and say we need to formalize that morality into a legal system to help.

Help perpetuate that help make that thing happen.

So for example, you see on the Supreme Court of the United States, you've got Moses up there with his tablets.

That's a really good example of how like the u.s. founders, they took the judeo Christian great Greek, Greco-Roman tradition, and built a political layer on top of it.

So the u.s. founders would be examples of Statesmen.

Stalin, Lenin would be Statesman on top of a Marxist layer, for example.

Well they took what he wrote and built Nations around it and and political systems and legal systems.

Sao, Paulo politicians work within that system, but states in the one who create them.

So you've got the moral, you couple just to emphasize here, it can be, it can go either way, it can go really well or it can go Rhett.

Yeah, yeah.

We're still do regardless exactly the layers are there and they do they go really good or really bad usually Really bad.

It seems like in history but there you can always break them down, you can go in and inspect them.

On top of that, you've got the economic layer.

What is the economic engine?

What is the economic philosophy so capitalism?

For example, for example, you've got no Adam Smith.

For example that is built on top of or influenced by the moral and political layers underneath it.

So, under this one, Capitalism under an American full stack isn't look different than capitalism under a communist China stack because they have capitalism over there too.

But you'll often hear people conflating, you know, we need to get rid of capitalism or capitalism.

Causes all these problems, that there are conflating, what's happening at the economic layer with what's really going on at the there.

There there, there beef is really, probably with what's going on underneath.

Yes.

Yeah, you did.

But then, if you You know, I'm talking about this unless you have an adequate educational background.

Did you really it's hard to even start having those really strong opinions because you're missing the big picture of it all?

And you're hacking at the leaves, and the limbs instead of the roots of the problem.

Exactly.

So on top of these.

So you got the moral, the political, then the economic on top of the, you have the social cultural, how do families operate, how do we take care of the elderly and the poor?

How do we tear take care of invalids and the and the sick?

Check, what is education?

Look like, but they're all informed by that stack.

And one of the one of my concerns is that we have in my opinion.

Well, I believe what's happening in the United States.

For example, I know you have international listeners and they can compare how this is happening in there is going to be interested in your opinion.

But you've seen what are the stacks you've seen in.

Other countries, as you've gone around the world have conversations.

We have been shifting our moral layer, we have been swapping it out from what it Was and the section of the first swap, we swapped it out about 100 years in, and then we're swapping it out again.

We're changing it.

And the the so they're almost like technology plates where when they shift they cause earthquakes.

And so, that's what we're seeing in our society is as the moral layer shifts, the political layer on top has to shift as well, but it's not a smooth easy process.

It's quite there's a lot of conflict and a lot of back and forth a lot of anger often as different voices Battle and compete for what should the moral layer be?

And so as we have shifted our moral layer, I'm I would say roughly.

This is now the second time, we have shifted it since the more often since the beginning of our country, You could argue that there's smaller ones in there.

But largely this is the second.

I would say that that political layer has to shift and sometimes it's even Led Out by the the social layer will have already shipped like the social layer shifting its.

It's there is a there's a symbiotic relationship between all of these is Not like one drives, the other always know the social, really, the people who are living right now, they're going to shift are going to be the ones.

It's like, it's like a circle where the ones who are on the living right now, they can shift the moral layer, they can determine what the moral layer will be for generations to come.

So we started out with a classic liberal and many, many listeners been.

It may not be familiar with liberalism, is its shifted that word has shifted in the last, you know, two hundred years, but Classical liberalism, you know, free Speech individual rights.

All of those things is, what are what the United States was founded?

Upon that shifted about 100 years ago to progressivism or Progressive liberalism, which, which has some additional tenants, we could get into it.

And now we're looking at a radical individualism or race Marxism, or there's a number of different ways to put it.

Our identity, Marxism at the, I believe is the is what we're shifting to now.

That's the moral layer that we're shifting to and you're starting to see, go ahead and give us a definition of Three things because this came up in our conversation.

Yeah, a few months ago and and I want listeners to like just just get a little bit of a grasp on those three things in the shift and kind of what, that what the implications are.

Yeah you bet I think those those what we call those microbe layers or levels, I don't know.

But those layers are super significant and how that changes happen.

Yeah.

I would call each one of them almost thoroughness religions.

Really.

They are philosophies He's their philosophies and people worship them.

And people.

Yeah.

Like Fanatics and and you're right, they get this religious Zeal around these ideologies.

Yeah, that's what things get.

So hot so fired up and it's so hard to even engage in debate sometimes.

Yes, and that's that's actually with the key to classical Classical liberalism was to try to solve that problem.

Because one thing that people don't, I think a lot of people don't realize is that everyone has a religion.

You don't have to have a God but you are going to have a religion.

We are as human beings, we have to have a religious software running, our system.

It's our way of looking at the world of what is right?

And what is wrong, what you, how I should spend my time?

How you should be spending your time, whether I can take your stuff, or not, and redistribute it at.

All of those are driven by your moral software and I'm not talking about any particular religion, it's like that.

We, that is how we run.

We we determined as human beings.

What is right?

And what is wrong?

We might get it.

Somewhere else.

We might make our own version of it but we all have a religion.

Everyone has a religion and all legislation is the legislation of morality people say you can't legislate morality.

It's like no actually law.

That's all it is.

Law is the legislate.

It is, it is co defying moral standards, that's what it is.

Don't cheat.

Don't you know?

Break your contracts.

Don't kill people.

Those are moral statements codified into law.

So one people Religious, you know, traditionally religious people Dia stick religious, people are often criticized for trying to incorporate their religion into the political spheres.

Like that's actually what everyone does.

Everyone is trying to have law recreated in their own image, you know, the image of their religion, whatever that religion happens to be.

So, classic liberalism was possibly the first.

I mean, the Moors did a really good job of this.

I think, I think they did a good job of a pluralism.

Mm, as well, hundreds of years ago.

But the idea of Classical liberalism is, you know, what, this idea of trying to establish a Utopia, you do.

Try to take a utopian ideal that religions often, give us whether it's Dia stick or not, your marks had marks and Hegel, they had a utopian ideal even today, the identity, the identity Marxist, have a utopian ideal ever.

You don't that we're not going to achieve that here on Earth.

We have to have a way to talk to each other.

We have to have a way that people of different Bring religions whether their district and not can talk to each other and work together and classic liberalism.

Is that system?

It's not.

It's not aiming at an ideal other than let's not kill each other.

And if we have to learn to work together to live together, that's basically the idea of Classical liberalism.

Now in my in my readings, it actually Springs.

Out of Christianity is where that that tolerance.

Like you go read a letter.

Concerning toleration.

Buy a lock.

For example, he spouses that ideas like yes I believe in Christianity but you cannot force it on people, you have to work with them, you have to listen to them.

And this is where we get all these ideas of free speech of freedom of assembly.

The the right to do the to debate.

The necessity of debate is all bound up in this idea of Classical liberalism and Liber Libor Library.

Libro that word comes.

It's Liberal arts.

It's the Arts of Freedom.

So how do we, how do we maintain freedom from those?

Who would impose their religious standard upon us?

How do we lived and worked together without fear of of that oppression happening to us.

So, Liberals are just how much you and I love books and Liberty library and library is So tied to freedom and I know books have totally transform your life and they have completely transformed mine and brought literally brought Freedom since so anyway.

So I just a little a little etymology.

The etymology.

There is just that just that cap Beauty.

Yeah.

Sorry yeah for sure.

Yeah I'd love to dip dive into these once we give those definitions but basically the idea behind classical Classical liberalism is we're not going to achieve the at your table.

Christianity says the Utopias in the next life.

Don't try to achieve it here necessarily.

How do we work together?

So you got individual rights, we could talk about where those come from Human Rights, freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, self-defense, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, all of those kinds of ideas are bound up in Classical liberalism and at the only point of government and this is where lock again comes in.

You know, he wrote his Second Treatise on, The government you gotta go read the first Treatise though, you know?

But the Second Treatise on government, you know, he did talk about the only purpose of government can be the only legitimate purpose and we can talk about how we can dive into this one too, because it's so essential is to protect life, liberty, and property.

That's the only thing that it can do.

And that's because that's the only thing that you can delegate.

You can't, you can only delegate that that's a right that you have, you have a right god-given in his estimation, to defend yourself to defend, your loved ones from Who would take your life or that, which you've used your life to create your property?

And that's the only thing you can delegate.

You can't delegate anything else, you can't?

And so, that's all the government is for.

And that's what that's basically, how America started was with.

That idea, that's all the government's for.

We, the people do everything else through through voluntary, cooperation through a consensus you know, Lexi de tocqueville, who read Democracy in America, fantastic book.

One of the things That he remarks on when you came over here, he's like, and these guys, get together for everything.

If there's a problem there, like a swarm of bees or ants, like, you know, they go, they go solve the problem, they form an association or a society of some sort, and they're always just doing that freely combining together, consensually of their own free will to solve society's problems now.

But we could get into that farther to, it's like, that's how you solve problems.

So we the people form a government to protect life, liberty property.

And then we the people get Gather to everything else involuntary Association.

That's basically the idea of Classical liberalism, constitutional conservatism is that basic idea. 100 years later, you had people like Roosevelt Wilson and others who said, you know what?

There are so many problems in society.

There are there's poor, there's poverty, there's a literacy, there's inequality, there's illness there's homelessness.

We've got to solve these problems and look at this power.

Awful machine.

That's just sitting there not being used called government, why don't we use that?

Let's harness that thing and, you know tax but then go and solve society's problems.

And so that was progressivism and that's where you see in the last 100 years of America.

This enormous burgeoning administrative state, that that tries to solve society's problems and removes that responsibility largely or to know, to some degree from the individual from associating with one There and says we're going to do, we're going to take care of that, we're going to we're going to organize the casino came from, you know, pressure.

They they looked at what they love the the how organized they were over there in a governmental sense.

He said, let's borrow that and let's organize it at that level and solve society's problems.

That was.

So that was the second hundred years of America and we can dive in this later.

That's a perfect example of on the outs.

It man, that looks so good.

It sounds so good and Like look what it can do or look what it's doing, but I think you even mentioned it just in passing that ultimately that takes away the responsibility of power of the individuals and gathering together in a volunteer basis.

And yeah, ultimately will be a disaster.

Yeah, it violates.

If and it's only until you read Aristotle and the Federalist papers that you can see the chinks in the armor of progressivism.

You know, what, how could that possibly go wrong.

How could that possibly be bad?

Because we do, we all want to feed the feed, the hungry, and clothe the naked and heal the sick and you know, educate the ignorant and you know free the captives.

We want to do those things.

How could that possibly be wrong?

And it's like, you know, if you want to pull up Google Maps to get you somewhere, you know, several hours away.

There's only, there's one right way together.

There's one best way to get there and there's thousands of ways to go wrong.

You can make a wrong turn on that road in an inn in.

Innumerable ways and that's the that's the path of him.

The the path, if human happiness and flourishing is that destination, it has that same problem that has the same conundrum where that road looks better.

But it doesn't actually take you where you think it's going to take you.

And so that's why you have to read have to read because it's, here's, here's my favorite analogy for it in in the Marvel movies, you had Doctor Strange towards the end of that whole series of movies and for those who watched them, And Doctor Strange got this thing called a Time Stone.

And they had this villain called fan knows who killed half of the life in the universe and the like, how do we defeat him and bring back those people.

So he had the time Stone, he had several the stones as well and he what he did is he went through and he iterated using this time, so he would go, you would go back and start again back and start again like millions of times, like, in his mind or he would go.

He would just go back and try to find.

What is the path to defeat this enemy and He realized there's only one way to do it and like, he couldn't even tell the other superheroes.

What that way with was until the moment that they could use it.

That's kind of how the path to human flourishing is.

There's so many ways to get it wrong and what they've been tried, they've been tried.

And so if you did it again again, and again and again.

Yes.

And so we can go back and we can go to dr.

Strange and say, you know, the thousands and the 3000th and the 4 millionth of I'm you tried it.

We're going to try those again.

It's like no, he didn't do that.

He tried it didn't work.

You move on to the next.

I moved on the next one and we because we don't read these books which document the the sad often sad Tales of what happened, when it didn't go, right?

You know, there you could make a movie about each one of the million things that he tried, right?

All the different variations that didn't work and how they ended.

Sadly, they only made a movie about the one, the one that worked.

But there were another, there were million other movies that Could have been made and there they have been made in terms of the, the story of human, flourishing and happiness, because you can go and see the wreckage in the history books societies.

And it's all there.

And that's one thing that kind of boggles my mind is, is will people in our generation that we think they're the first ones.

To think of it.

You come up with this new idea of like not hey, let's try to sort of work but like my first Fonzie is is having you read like that was tried before and it did Not work at all.

Yeah, but you right, you have to, and it's hot.

Understand always challenging.

That's a lot of books to read.

And that's a lot of history to cover to see all the ways.

It didn't work.

Yeah.

And I'm not even saying that the founders nailed it.

But, you know, one of my favorite things about Aristotle his so it's not his first book, but the is kind of a one-two punch from Aristotle.

One is ethics which, which is basically the store we can dive into ethics?

That'd be really fun, but it's basically the question of, how do we achieve human happiness, which he describes as the greatest good?

That's that is the thing that we should all that were out there.

We are also not that we should be seeking.

It's what we all do seek is happiness.

And his second book, or the next book of politics, then tries to describe what kind of You have to set up to enable that to best.

Make that.

What's what do we do?

And when you start reading politics, he does exactly what what dr.

Strange did.

He's catalogs.

All of the he goes through the history books and he says this form didn't work.

This form didn't work.

Monarchy that's obsolete in 300 350 BC, he said Monica didn't work and we stop monarchies today.

We didn't listen to Aristotle, you know he's like that's obsolete.

Here we are still running that software.

We're still running the monarchy software even though he recognized you know. 2,300 years ago, that it's, that is doesn't work.

We don't want to listen.

And that we could talk about why we don't want to, listen, why do we not want to listen to those to those those Tails?

So, he, he did, he went and tried to learn the lessons from and and tried another iteration there.

He was Doctor Strange and his generation learning looking at the past iterations and saying, okay I'm going to tweak it this or I can tweak it this way and tweak this way the founding generation 2000 years later had two thousand years worth of History to look at of other societies.

Civilizations trying out there doctor, strange iterations and seeing what didn't work, and they had the benefit of people, like Montesquieu who came along that Aristotle didn't have the benefit of Montesquieu or, or lock or or Smith or any of our Aquinas or any of these others.

And so, they built they did they built the next iteration.

And if we're going to follow, you know, the wisdom of dr.

Strange of not trying something that was tried before and didn't work.

You have to know what iterations have been tried yet.

To understand, or you're going to tweak it in a way that this takes you back down, a path that is already known Federalist, Papers are fantastic for that because they say, you've got to do it this way, you can't do it, that we can.

Here's the problem with that.

If you try to go left and at that turn, it's going to take you down this road.

If you try and and gosh, if we would just read those even at the high school level because there every single one of these models, they're really soft.

We're trying to run on the hardware of human nature.

That's really what they are and So we've all been trying to figure out human nature for all these thousands of years and trying different software running on that platform and see which one runs the best at which one crashes and which one does the most damage when it crashes.

So there we need to it's almost like you know I grew up in the era where they're like wordperfect or Microsoft Word, you know, 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0.

They would they would just keep iterating and you can go back and look and see what Universe you're on now.

They don't make a big deal of it.

Now they used to make a really big down eye version 10 and then it kind of Lost their, you know, fervor for publishing, which version there on, but it's almost like being on 10 and going back to six, who wants to do that.

You lose all this functionality, you know, you're going back in time.

So that's, that's my question for anyone who wants to make changes to societies, like, what have you done to to do the dock?

If you're done the doctor strange thing where you've looked at what's been tried?

You see that again?

What was interesting is this comes up often in our conversations, with other people, or even even online, is will share something and this happened last week ago, my wife shared this this idea of like hate We should be reading the classics as she got a response on days.

Like, what could we possibly learn from old books?

This that was the Lejeune response and and I can see the reasoning of like, wait, if we have version 10, why would we go back to version 6?

And you can see like what do old books have to teach us?

Like we're the most advanced but I think the lesson here is your Advance - might just be a repetition of something that's already proven not to work.

And so Circling back in one of the benefits of circling back and seeing what didn't work.

You know, I was listening to Brett, Weinstein dr.

Weinstein and podcast, he did yesterday, he's an evolutionary.

Biologist who had a fascinating story of being kicked out.

Basically, by the students of Evergreen State College.

I think in Washington state where they went super woke and he being a, he called himself a radical Progressive, but he wasn't radical enough for them fascinating story.

Well let's see.

What was I going to say what he said?

Oh, that the prob the reason why the versions issue, Issue doesn't work with humans is what we've learned is that our our Hardware wants to go awry.

Our Hardware, our nature wants to go awry, it wants.

There's there's part of us that wants happiness, in the right way, and there's part of us that wants happiness, in the wrong way.

And so these different iterations.

These different doctor strange.

Iterations of 1.0 2.0. 3.0 is realizing oh, you have some inclinations human being.

You homo sapien, have some inclinations within you that are actually anti happiness antisocial that you're born with but that you have to guard against.

So for example, Ample, we have an inclination to find the easiest path to wherever we want to go.

I saw this when I was at University and had a big quod, he had buildings on the around this big lawn and did people take the, they took the most direct path, they took the dagger while they were out the lawn.

And then the from the administration, got all freshly like, why you wake?

Take the diagonal path to get to Kitty Corners like well, I don't want to take the long way where I have to then make a left turn.

So I want to take the shortest path, that is actually good because it drives us to as a good side because It drives us to find easier faster.

More efficient ways to do things but there's a downside to it where we will, like if I can go just take something.

If I can take the lollipop from my sister where I can take the cash from my neighbor, or if I can, you know, if I can get it in unscrupulous ways, quote-unquote unscrupulous, whatever that means.

That's going to the moral layer, right?

Who decides what's in scrupulous then, you know, might makes right?

That's certainly a way.

It's certainly a moral layer.

There's, you can certainly build a political layer on top of that theology.

That I am the king.

Therefore what I say goes and you all pay homage to me and my happiness is what actually matters and look, we're achieving it at the expense of all of you.

You know, that that is there is, you know, those totalitarian authoritarian dictatorial.

It's like what Victor Frankel said, who said, you know, a man's search for meaning.

He was the one in the in the concentration camps.

He said the the line dividing good and evil runs through every human heart.

Yeah.

That's that's the human nature problem.

And so that's why you keep, that's why you have to study the prior versions, you don't have to study the prior versions of my of Google Chrome and Microsoft words like man and I you don't need to do that but you do if human nature because every child that is born has that same heart the hardware hasn't changed.

We're just trying to find the best software or to guard mold sculpt us as human beings to maximize our happiness.

So that's why that's why the The versioning part.

That's why you have to read all books.

I love this.

Okay, there's so much I want to, but I want to finish the definition, so Define force that individualism you think we've moved into and then I want to digest yet to ethics Aristotle, kind of stuff.

Yeah, this one's a little more difficult because there's lots of in this religion, there's lots of denominations, which you could say, is true of, really, any religion, you know, Christianity for example, has 45,000 denominations in the world, some of them are actually murderous.

Some of them are suicidal, you know, some of them go and You know, do terrible, things and protest things.

They shouldn't protest.

You know.

It's so it.

You you have to be careful.

If there is no such thing as a month, there is no monolithic in these religions.

And the same is true of this, identitarian ISM this radical identitarian ISM.

And it might be most easily base.

Basically the idea, well, again, there's there's so many different denominations that they they play almost chameleon with your.

Again, if we could use the Marvel analogies Loki, he can make disappear and up here.

It would be great if he can and so anytime you go to grasp that one.

They'll say, that's not it, it's this one over here that because they all have slightly different, but they spring from, you've got Kant, Hegel marks G, she bell-like just down.

There's there's all these different philosophers who build on one another to build different versions, but they all they all Trace back to this gaily and concept that the Utopia Is possible that there's there is that that is possible here on Earth if we can that that it actually exists.

There's actually this beautiful thing, this beautiful society that exists but it's like held in Chains.

If we can just peel back the chains, a little onion, then the Buda perfect Society will reveal itself.

And so there's this idea of the dialectic that you just you look at what's wrong with society and say, how do we get rid of what's wrong with Society is you that?

That's how you peel the onion, is this thing called the dialectic and so All these different versions.

They they're actually added to ID at each odds, with each other.

And that they're saying, that's what's wrong with that version of G.

You did to this, with the marks, he said, marks focused on the wrong thing.

You should have been focused on this.

He didn't pay attention of attention to cultural factors.

He didn't pay enough attention to how family how religion, how legal structures because Marx, thought that getting off way.

I'm going to deep before I give the definition, but basically what we're living with right now is this, I did this radical identitarian is MM, which is what You say what you say, what you feel within you?

That's the only voice you have to listen to, and everyone has to honor it.

If I were, if I were to put it in a in a nutshell, you know, your identity is what's most important and everyone has to honor that and and change their language around you.

Perhaps and, you know, every religion does have is really about an identity transplant.

And Christianity is all about taking on someone else's name, and living your life as if Them, that, that is, you know, that person in Christianity is Jesus Christ, you're supposed to live your life, as though, you were him chose to do.

What he would do.

What would Jesus do?

The bumper sticker.

It is an identity transplant.

You know, in my particular denomination of Christianity.

It when you get baptized you take upon yourself the name of Christ you know you pray in the Name of Christ you are.

It is about identity, it's about identity.

So I don't want to disparage.

The I did the concept of identity.

The question is, what identity are you trying to take upon yourself and if It's your own, the one that that what, what is, what is calling out of you?

Well, it doesn't make for a very cohesive Society because if there's not a uniform if you have to honor them, all mean that that's the question, can you honor them all the only differences?

And so what you need is because initially and I'm all about sovereignty and autonomy and in the strength of the individual and the family but ultimately that won't Work in the society.

Well, you know, the interesting thing about sovereignty cuz is that sovereignty is not individual, sovereignty is not Universal, isn't the right word, it is not.

It's not Limitless.

The concept of individual sovereignty is not without bounds without boundaries.

Where does the, and this is where you have to go down the stacks like well, where did this idea of of, in fact sovereignty, individual sovereignty is what gives rise to two human rights.

So you got it, you got a pass for human rights and get to this idea of human of human sovereignty.

Where does it come from?

Well, in the, as far as I can tell it come, you know, lock, for example, Aquinas date.

Talk about it.

It's because you are made in the image of the Divine Creator.

You have autonomy over yourself as you seek to do his will.

It's not as you do whatever you want.

We have to do what he wants.

You each of us has to do it.

So your your autonomous and have sovereignty towards a specific aim not towards whatever.

Aim you want, kind of noble a more moral High ground, it's very constricted.

It's very constrained, it's much like Jet fuel or Rocket Fuel.

If you just like Rocket Fuel, it will make an enormous explosion and won't take you anywhere, and I'll probably do a great deal of damage.

But if you constrain it within a specific structure called a rocket, it will take you places an individual sovereignty.

Individual will is very much like that.

It's, it's within certain bounds of what are the bounds?

That's the software.

That's the moral layer.

What?

And we've been trying to figure that out for Generation upon generation.

Action.

This is so fun here.

You articulate this.

Because Rachel and I have been taught really deeply discussing this for those of you listening, you don't know, Rachel's my wife and we're taking our family to Norway in December.

So we've been studying Norwegian history and she's been simultaneously reading this book called the book that made your world.

And it's from Meridian guy, referencing the Bible and how the Bible brought in the worth of the individual, and how a lot of Frameworks the law.

So that was the moral code that brought in this framework where we see over.

And a lot of the Norwegian history, it was just the rating every summer.

They went on rates and they just kill whoever wherever to take their stuff.

Like no qualms, no problems, but finding and, and everything was faded.

It was just complete fate.

It was just like you guys fate, if this happens is totally fake.

If I beat you at state, if I lose its fate, really?

There's there was no, it was just a different more code, right?

So it's fascinating to do.

Also, but I think this is a good trick transition here.

Let's dive into ethics and happiness and what Aristotle was saying on that and like so, so then if the ultimate goal, he's saying, is happiness, how does that fit into the individual?

The family, the society, let's dive into that.

Yeah, absolutely.

So he starts out and this is a difficult read.

Ethics is a difficult read.

It's, it's almost like rich chocolate.

You have to like, take little bites.

Cuz it's just so dense and it makes you really think.

And that's what, that's what a classic is.

The man was a genius and ethics is just one of several books that he wrote.

I mean here's I think these are I think I've got right here the for those who are you know, have to be seeing there's like two books, this thick of tiny print, you know, tiny margins.

Like this guy was riding with, I don't even know what kind of utensil 2,300 years ago had.

It's like we're so lucky to have him and have his writings but he started out asking the question.

He said, you know whatever if you think about it, everything we do.

Aims at some good everything and often we do that that it aims at there's a good on top of that one.

So you do this like you you buy a tool not just to have the tool but you can build something with that tool.

So the tool itself is a good but it's not the ultimate good, they'll the good on top of that.

Good was whatever you're building, but you can just build that building.

That's not the ultimate good either.

You built that building.

Maybe it's a house.

So you can, your family can Reside in it and you can have time with your family inside that house.

But even that's not necessarily the highest, he's like this.

Like, is there like an infinite regress?

This just go on forever.

Or is there like an ultimate thing that we're all aiming towards?

And it says you there is, there is there, I think it is a, I think there is and it's called Happiness.

That's what we're all aiming for.

That is the end of man, that is what we are all.

That is, the ultimate achievement is happiness.

And so he writes this Huge book on happiness.

Like what you know, what, how, what is this thing?

And what are the impediments to it, and what has worked?

And what hasn't?

And let's figure this thing out.

So, one of the first things that he talks about, he says character characters, necessary for happiness, happiness, is, is a pursuit of virtue, not pleasure.

It's a pursuit of virtue.

That's, he talks about the people that try to pursue just Pleasures, like not They don't end up.

Happy the ones who end up happier, the ones who pursue virtue it's like, well, what's virtue is its virtue.

It's just really hard thing.

It's it's this right way to act in the right amount toward the right people at the right time for the right length all the time forever.

You know, it's like and it's like really really hard but that's what virtue is and and it's almost like this, this needle if it was, if this needle is pointing up.

If you're like on a dashboard and you have this needle pointing straight up as like your true north that you're acting in the Way, it's so easy to act in the wrong way, a little bit to the, to the left of the right, meaning you did too much of it, or you did too little of it.

And as parents, we can see this in parenting is like there's a, there's a right way to handle a given situation with the child.

But there's also there's a whole Shades of Grey on both sides of doing too little, or too much.

Now you can be overbearing or you can be coddling, you know?

And so he goes through any names, like a bunch of doesn't at least virtues and he says there's there's An excess in a deficiency of each and explores them.

It is like courage.

For example, courage.

This is what courage is, and explains courage, and he says, but you can have too much courage, you can be rash, you could be, you could you could charge the enemy, when there really is no way to be to defeat the enemy through that charge and just end up killing yourself in your men.

For example, that would be rashness.

It's possible to be have an excess of Courage, but it's also possible to have a deficiency of Courage, where your cowardly And you you don't exhibit enough courage.

And it goes through, you know, like I said, it doesn't or more of this and it explores and he agonizes over them and he gives examples of History, where people did it, right?

And our people did it wrong.

He says, you've got to pursue virtue and this is a lifelong Pursuit.

It is, it's a, it's a lifelong pursuit of building character character is making habit out of virtue, so that it becomes more and more automatic because in tilt automatic, you have to work at it and it's Difficult in the extreme.

Those, that's one of my favorite phrases from Aristotle.

Is difficult in the extreme, is this something you have to be working at your entire life character through the exercise, of Virtues what he talks about it requires action, it choice is an is essential.

You have to have the ability to choose so there's a freedom element.

You've got to act, it's not good enough to just think about it.

What?

But he does talk about thinking quite a bit.

How contemplation is is this is one of the highest activities, you've had a contemplate.

How should you act?

How should you be?

So you've got virtue.

So he's building this recipe right?

This this stack of what do you got to do to get to happen as he's got character in there through virtue or a lifelong Pursuit.

You've got actions that you're taking to build that virtue.

You re making choices your motive in your tent, totally matter.

You can't do things for the wrong reason.

So the right of do the right thing in the right amount for the right reasons of the right person for the right amounts, like, oh my God.

Are you serious?

Like, yes.

And that's why we live for more than just two weeks.

Like some bugs and animals.

We have lived for decades.

We can figure Sure, this out, you have to deliberate.

You have to hack in eyes.

And he says, how do we figure this out?

He says, and this is one of my things.

I love the most about Aristotle.

He says, you know, there is this thing.

There's this thing in every human being I run across it in every person that I talk to you, I call it reason.

There's like, this voice inside of us, and I think it's divine, he says, or, or it's at least the most Divine thing in us.

But this voice says the same thing to pretty much.

Human being and tell them what the right action is or at least tell them what the wrong action is.

And if you listen and cultivate that voice, that's what tells you, what the virtuous action is, that's how, you know, it actually it's within us.

But it's got to be external to us because it exists in all of us.

So I don't know.

I don't, I don't know what you call it, he calls it reason.

Some people might call it conscience, but it says there's this voice and so you have to cultivate that voice.

He says the voice can be silenced.

You can you can act against the voice and you oh silence the voice.

So this the so there's a positive spiral and a negative spiral where if you listen to that voice and act consistently with it and work on virtue and character, The Voice will continue to guide you, but if you go in the opposite direction, The Voice will be overpowered and you won't be able to hear it anymore.

And that's a terrible thing to contemplate.

Because then man becomes a beast and the he's got some great quotes about how men can be Beast, man.

Can be beasts or they can be angels and again, that's Viktor Frankl, you know, Victor Franko 2,000 players chanting.

Aristotle.

You know, he's got the, you got the beast in the angel within us, okay?

So you got happiness is like building these this The Stairway to happen is you've got character developed to through virtue, which is you have to act.

In order to act, you have to have Choice.

Your choices have to be properly motivated.

You have to deliberate, you have to listen to reason.

And if you do that you will achieve.

You'll achieve happiness.

But that's not even even that's not all.

He says, there's actually there's this.

This concept of a complete life, which happiness is a component of Happiness, what we're looking for.

But but the complete life is because you can have someone who's, who's doing all that.

But this, but they still live in poverty.

And so he said, there's actually four components.

You've got to have happiness, you have to have wisdom now.

Let's see.

Wisdom, which is wisdom is knowledge of things that don't change.

He's saying, there's things that don't change and you've got to know them.

And he says, you got to have judgment, which is knowledge of things, which do change.

So, you've got to be able to judge between things that do change and Bob and weave, and you've got to have both those.

And then he says, you have to have.

And this is the biggest surprise to me was property.

You can't subsist without property, and you can't be generous and magnanimous, which are two of the virtues, which means you're giving you are giving.

You know, if you don't, if you're not super wealthy, you're just generous means you're giving with In your what you can within the, you know, within your circle of influence.

But if you're wealthy, you have to be magnanimous, you have to give greatly and that's a virtue.

And so property is then essential is essential to happiness.

As is wisdom.

As is Judgment, as is virtue acquired through, action Choice, deliberation and listening to reason, or that voice that lives within all of us.

And he says, as you do this, by the way, the greatest of all virtues, Is Justice because you're acting.

You're making sure that right action is done to everyone around.

You not just yourself that you're ensuring that, that happens at a societal level.

Just as the right action to the right people in the right amount the right time for the right reasons, that's just as that's what Justice is in his, which is a different definition, by the way.

Hopping back to a prior conversation.

In radical individualism or identity, Marxism, Justice, or social justice has a very different definition.

So if know what definitions you're talking about words matter, Are you okay going back to Aristotle?

He said Justice, that's what we're all aiming for.

On a societal level happiness is what you're aiming for an individual level.

Here's the recipe to get there and by the way pleasure, pleasure is great, just make sure it works within this framework.

And by the way, one of the greatest Pleasures are going to have.

Yeah you within the exactly within the boundaries it appears you let me build the rocket ship for you.

The fuel is your own will power your energy your ambition Channel.

Property properly, it'll take you to the right place.

It will take you to the Stars.

Another interesting observation.

He made is that one of the greatest sources of pleasure you can have in life is friendship.

Friendships of virtue, not friendships of utility and pleasure.

All those aren't necessarily bad but the highest form of friendship, our friendships of virtue people, who that the that you actually get pleasure and delight and fulfillment from these relationships with other people who are on that same path operating within this.

Same constraints.

And then he says, and by the way, that's how you build cities, people who are people who are operating, magnanimously generously working towards virtue, and they have these friendships and are seeking to instill Justice within the communities.

They're the one they are the they are this in there.

The fabric that creates a virtuous City's friends, you want this, the community want, that's the kind of people you want to build a society with and, and I would say That's the only kind of people that will actually sustain a society little little last because you let any of that erode and things start to just unravel and you've been describing, what he's talking about here is wisdom and happiness, and Justice and property and I'm sure the listeners have heard the soup you picking up bits and pieces all over of these.

These voices that are contrary to all this right now and they're out there.

There's a lot of them moving away from property.

I keep hearing In that there's there's places around the world that were just like, hey, you don't need to own anything, will own it all for you.

You don't have to have the burden of ownership and they're moving away from property, like another from away from wisdom or the Judgment or and then then just individualism and relativism.

So there's a lot of choices right now.

A lot of messages coming in in contradiction to a lot of this, you know, I was listening to a viewer from the Ben Shapiro.

He's open conservative commentator.

Really big in the United It's, but he did a piece, I think it was yesterday or today, where he, he read online.

A, an article written by a young lady while she's in, she's now 43.

Not so young anymore.

Wish I could remember her name, Bridget, I think is her name, but she said, like, I regret being a slut was the name of this article.

She had been very promiscuous, she was raised in a very conservative, Catholic, background rejected, that believe that it repressed, her sexuality.

And then went and just gave herself to Whoever Whenever and it It's a, it's a moving beautiful piece, how she's now come full circle and said, I don't think, I don't think my Catholic upbringing did it, right?

But boy, did my own search for happiness through sexual promiscuity.

It did not bring happiness, it brought misery and she just and she walks through all these different, all these different ways that it made her miserable, and how she feels about now.

She's on her.

Second marriage has a child, she's on a different path towards happiness and the question.

And I highly recommend it to Just to go to go search that out.

But my the the question is, are we going to learn those lessons?

Because she's like, I'm going to teach my kid.

I'm going to teach my kid, but I didn't get taught.

I'm going to teach, I'm going to try to improve.

I'm going to try to iterate.

She didn't say this doctor strange wise, but in when it comes to my child sexuality, I'm going to try to iterate and do better.

I rejected, you know, what was given to me, but, you know, maybe they didn't get it perfectly right.

But the way I went and tried to do it was was far worse.

So the question is are we going to learn this stuff from books?

Are we going to learn it ourselves in our own lives and in our 40s and 50s and 60s say, oops, you young uns list, you young, whippersnappers.

Listen to me because, you know, I know better.

He's like, that's that is, that's why education is so, so critical because we are all born and think we're like, you know, this beautiful wide world and I've got all these voices speaking inside of me, of one of which one of them is reason, that's not the only reason.

That's not the only voice and sometimes, there's louder voices Within Me Right specially during puberty.

And so, it's like, what voices are we going to listen to?

And if we don't Study what the voice that those lessons of the past, we get to learn them through the experience of their life of we get to get the degree of the University of Hard Knocks, which is life itself, which can be so miserable Henry.

Yes it.

Yeah, tell me so difficult.

And I get to work with individuals and families.

Literally every single day and I've had the privilege of working with thousands and thousands thousands of people across five continents and dozens and dozens of countries.

It's a privilege of mine that people reach out to me and I get to help them.

But many of them are in in that those gaps of misery and I get to see the pain and the suffering from choices and they tell me those experiences, right?

And as a young man, when parents made decisions and stepdad came away and I ended up out of my own, I had some years of hard and lonely misery and I and I was living in these broken places, you know, these rundown horrible communities and seeing the suffering and the pain.

That's just Perpetual there and being right there on it and in it surrounded by it.

And I just feel like shouting from the rooftops that there were like eight don't make those choices that just hurts that stuff is so it's so painful.

And then to hear you talk about, I've got this um I got a text right here in on my on my desk.

I'm working through and I just got them.

Beautiful leather-bound copy of politics and Poetics from him as well.

But here you explain that I think this this this is A book, there's so many great books in the world, but this is the book.

We all ought to be contemplating and consuming a little bit.

Maybe even on a daily or weekly basis just chewing on those few things you outline.

So, well that's the essence.

Of life in striving to live a good life.

And I'm reminded of a quote by it's in, it's in Moby, Dick Melville says that were surrounded off the mic, a little island in the Pacific surrounded by all the horrors of a half lived life, Instead of living a whole like a full and complete life.

I think that's about it.

You and you lack.

Meaning your life is empty.

Yeah, I am reminded of Anna Karenina by Tolstoy is like opening a line in that, that great book.

Is a happy families are all alike.

Every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

There are his innumerable ways to get it wrong, you know.

But that constraint, there's like one way to get it right now.

Doesn't mean it looks like every family looks the same.

Because acting the right way to the words.

The right people in the right amount, for the right amount of time.

For the right reasons has wonderful, variety and diversity on an individual, and pert, and familial and societal, you know, foods and music, and traditions are so rich in wonderful.

It's not about uniformity is not about Conformity to, to, like, everyone has to be like, Gary, or like Greg, but there is a voice that tells tell you how you have to be like, and it's going to be, you know, whatever virtue looks like.

Like so every fan happy family is is alike and every unhappy family is a is unlike it there there's so many ways to get to get it wrong.

So are we going to try to figure it out from scratch or we going to go to dr.

Strange and say, can I read all the million ways that I got it wrong?

You know, and you said, you got politics.

I disagree with a lot of what Aristotle said in politics.

He was doing the best that he could, he was saying.

Here's all the different ways has been tried.

I think this is what we've got to do, but I see the seeds of totalitarianism and authoritarianism.

Is politics because he is like, we've got to parent this way and we've got to take I'm gonna it's like okay, you're going to mandate that.

So you've got the power to mandate can that ever go wrong and that yes it can and it did and it has and that's where the founders said that power.

It's the one ring man.

It's the one ring from Tolkien.

You know with you know with this with this ring I would hope do great good but through me would work great evil.

You know?

That's power is the One Ring you can't.

Can't concentrate it and and Aristotle was toying with concentrating power to try to do good what the founders after two more thousand years of trying said, now you've got to you can't, you can't concentrate power, you have to distribute it.

At the most, you closest level possible to the people who need it.

This tiny bit of the top, you know, you've got to separate it.

Horizontally vertically auxiliary precautions checks and balances like like this crazy, you know.

In a matrix latticework of divided, power, because power corrupts and absolute power.

Corrupts.

Absolutely human nature.

They recognize the sot, the hardware power doesn't do good on running running on our system.

It does terrible.

Every human beings who is immune from the effects of power.

So, you know, as far as you know, reading, you know, politics read it, and then compare it to the founding and what lessons they learned, you know?

Exactly.

That's why you have to read so many books and read, you know, read politics knowing that it influence, other thinkers, and then read it or thinkers and then read the outcomes.

All through that.

So beautiful, I had kind of a curiosity, they don't comes up.

How do we, how do we keep from consuming?

Just one side or the other getting an echo chamber?

Sometimes will get will get sucked into listening to one side that, you know, in the United States we talk about the right and the left or the Derivatives are liberals like how do you approach that?

What's, what do you feel like is in your perspective is a good way to not just get stuck in one Echo chamber or the other or to just grab hold of one concept or group.

Because we like to do that would like to fit in.

We like along and and if they, you know, the majority of here.

But then we start, we start, oh, well, they're the enemy and what it doesn't matter what they say, even if it's reasonable and logical and actually kind of, they're on, they're on the other.

Camp.

How do we, how do we stay whole?

We have to Purposely intentionally enter What's called the great conversation?

Yes, the great conversations a book here on my shelf is part of the Great book series right here back here you know and the idea is that this question of human flourishing and happiness has been going on for thousands of years and I'm open to Aristotle being wrong.

I'm open to the founders being wrong but let's have that conversation.

Let's have that debate.

And so what these like if you look at the Gradebook series which is it Fred that be online.

Some people are listening, just go, look up, great books, you know, Britannica great book series.

There's like fifty two volumes or something like that and it's basically the commits its the consolidation of the greatest minds and thinkers at trying to wrestle over these and other questions of human existence.

And so we have to be one of the Harvard Classics and sets like that, isn't it?

Yes, I've got both of those.

The Harvard Classics isn't is another set.

So you've got the Like a great books.

There is some crossover but not as much as you would think the Harvard Classics, as I recall or more about literature than they are about philosophy.

More like which, of course literature often is a source of philosophy, but the the Gradebook series is more of a philosophical Treatise on right.

Wrong economics, moral political, whereas Harvard, get you more into essays and fiction and you know, some of which is you know, explores these Any questions like for example, Pilgrim's Progress, you know, is explores Christianity and and the software that runs the expense of Christianity, as software runs on the human nature, Hardware platform.

You know, you've got about that pill in progress.

Yeah.

So so yeah, there's you mean I'm like like this far in a huge list of books but great books is a place where that, where that conversation takes place and so that's the The answer.

That's the answer for me to beat your question because I know there's a lot of people when I heard about this years and years ago and really talking about but getting in the great debate or the great conversation is is jumping into really via books.

This conversation has been going on for a very long time of like how do we do life?

That's 180 life.

And so the way to keep yourself from being sucked away into little rabbit holes or whatever, or missing things is going to go ahead and read it all across.

Onerous and really think through it all get into these deep Classics.

I have to ask you a question because I'm interested in your opinion again.

This week somebody, we suggested a list like the great books or the set and they're just like, Oh, and it was a very well comment of like well that's just just more stuff from whitening.

Right?

And it's like ah like okay yes a lot of those books are written by white men.

Then you're right, but like these are some of the greatest thinkers of all time.

Like, sometimes I'm interested in your perspective on a response to that like because this this individual again, it came from a pretty good place to like we need to read outside of that because it's just more white men telling us what they think.

Yeah, that's all.

That's a, that's a whole nother conversation, isn't it?

Isn't it?

Isn't it amazing that we can categorize?

We can categorize an entire, you know, it's interesting that we, this, this religion of Radical individualism groups, people wide swaths of people and and labels them like white people.

Ok.

So you're telling me someone who from ancient Greece, 2,300 years ago, Greece, not, not Europe, but Greece, 2,300 years ago, who lived a life completely different than any white person in the last thousand years, you're going to put him in the same category as Jefferson or Gary.

Old granny.

Oh, there's still light outside though as they were so homogeneous.

It's like no no it's life is far more complex and sophisticated and beautiful than I mean how many how many colors are in your palate, 16, you know, know there's millions of colors in the palette and millions of ideas.

So this is about ideas not people.

That's actually racist to to reject something and sexist to reject something basic based on someone's skin color.

It's actually, in fact, you know, The racism where words are now, changing underneath our feet?

You know, racism is a word that has changed in in racism 2.0.

What's called anti racism is, you cannot be racist towards white people, you cannot be sexist towards a heterosexual, male white people.

They are the enemy, they are, who has, you know, they're they're responsible for all misery of mankind.

And so that's that's a whole, another interesting religious, that's an Article of Faith.

By the way, it's an Article of Faith of that religion, that you can reject Someone based on their skin color, their sexuality, their ancestry.

That's an article of faith.

I reject that article of faith.

I've investigated that religion.

I chose not to get baptized in it.

I've chosen to stay with others that I have investigated as well, but it is a religion.

It's a mode of being a mode of belief.

And the the point of reading these books is the idea is, these are arguably, you don't have to read every re you don't have read everything.

That's And written these are just considered the best.

These are the most clearly articulated so like okay, go read them and see if you can find what's wrong.

Then there's books in there that I disagree with there's marks.

He's part of the great debate.

He he and and others Freud is in there as well.

They're part of the great.

The great conversation is not saying, this is the only way it's simply saying.

Here's the greatest articulations of different viewpoints are Classics and should be read.

But even though we may not agree with them, or they might be like, hey, this isn't something we want to incorporate still, a great classic, and we have to be understand what's going on.

Yeah, they don't agree with each other, they don't agree with each other that.

I mean, anyone who says I'm going to reject them because they're there, a tradition that I reject, psych don't understand.

They are very often vehemently opposed to one another but they are the ideas that have had the greatest impact on the world that people have believed with greatest ferocity.

Have built their whole lives, built their whole civilizations multi-generational.

So they had great impact on people.

They were very believable to those people.

They're being believed Now by different groups of people.

You can start from scratch.

If you want to, you can go to doctor strange and say I'm going to start at level 1.

But that's that's that's a it's not very intelligent way.

Yeah, exactly.

Way to go about it.

Wow, I'm going to, I'm going to reinvent math, I'm going to reinvent language.

To reinvent geometry.

I'm going to reinvent build bridge building and our Agriculture and architectures like, really.

That's that's the way you want to go about life is start over from with caveman every segment of know we, if in fact, it's in, it's a it's a sign of extreme privilege to even be able to have those questions have those know to even scoff is a sign of extreme privilege because as you drive your car on the road, having eaten the food, you know where all of this was created by This great conversation which you can disagree with, but let's disagree.

And let's get granular.

And that's that's really wrestle.

You can't just dismiss out of hand without dismissing out of hand.

All the fruits.

Yeah, amazing.

And what would inevitably comes to mind?

Because it impacted me.

So, profoundly is Schultz and heat since the gulag archipelago and how wrong.

So, so far wrong with some of these ideologies and philosophies went to just millions and tens of millions of people just being tortured and killed at the end result.

A lot of these ideas.

Yeah.

So out of hand that just was an absolute disaster.

Yeah, absolutely.

Was taking place my mother still alive and I was happening in her lifetime.

She was a child.

It was happening in my life, comedy.

Note that the the cultural revolution in China, you know, hundred million people killed families turning on one, another horrible horrible within my lifetime.

You know, it's again, these things are not in the past.

They live, they live.

Within each one of us that line still is drawn through every human heart.

So we have to read.

There's two ways to learn it either.

We learn from those who have and I'm not saying they were, the question is not a matter of where they write the question is, are you going to try to learn from them?

Are you going to go at it alone?

And would you do that with any other with the ideas of morality politics economics and social structure?

Are you going to try to build it from scratch?

Or are you going to go and Learn is it's like it's like an architecture.

Major going to college and saying I'm not going to go to college.

I'm not going to learn best practices.

I'm not going to learn industry standards.

I'm going to start with these Twigs that I pulled off of a tree and I'm going to figure it out on my own.

Do you really want to do that with morality with?

But we feel freedom, we feel in uninhibited.

We feel like if I could just cast off the shackles of the rocket, I could explode in whatever Direction I want to and we did the bridge You're Building.

Anyway, I want.

Why do I have to follow these engineering?

And purple principles so restrictive.

Yes, there's so much.

Let's let me ask him though because it's the listeners of got to be asking.

Like okay how in the world we have businesses, we have families, we have projects Hobbies.

How do you fit in time to learn your real like, let's get down to some Logistics here.

Yeah.

What's a day in the life of a week in the life of?

How are you?

How are you consuming this stuff?

that's a really great question is when I've wrestled with it because I believe it's essential and I believe we've almost entirely lost it.

The vast majority of people in my culture, in my part of the world in my country, do not do this and we have left, we have left the, the guard towers we have left, the gates that we are no longer watching them, to make sure that no, you know, poor philosophy enters in and corrupts and break down our buildings, we're not watching anymore, we're not studying it, you know, the price of Liberty is eternal, vigilance.

We're not vigilant.

We are and we have been trained to be possibly involved in a family.

That's, that's also been, you know, now in dispute very much involved in a career of some sort.

That's that's that's a big one.

Although we do see that cracking even in some places now where people say no college, no longer necessary, you know, which, you know, that's that's a hockey movie gets all disgust me get into because that there are good arguments against that.

But how do you find the time you have To make the time and you have to choose.

This is my, this is my concern with social media, with Tick-Tock, reels with Instagram, reels of Facebook Wheels, you can get on there and it can just suck you in.

It's like, it's like, you know, Harry Potter with those.

Those breathers that, you know, the whatever they call those black ghost like things that would just suck the life out of you.

There are things in our society that suck your time and you look at any one of them individually in their humorous.

They're interesting.

They're even maybe, you know, mine early.

You know, but what?

But what you're not considering, is what are you not doing?

Because you're doing that, what are you?

Not reading because you're watching that movie.

What do you not?

Because, you know, if you are, I saw some, I think a show called better Better Call Saul or something like that, just because a multi Seer multi season series and the people who watched it though, the ending was so profound.

You know, you had to get through several seasons of not family.

Safe stuff.

Do you know it's like okay.

What?

You know, it's like okay that that that was a price, you pay to get whatever you got out of that show and I've not watched the show.

So I can't speak to it.

But what did you not get?

What did you not read?

So you could watch that.

And I'm not saying we shouldn't have wholesome recreational activity.

We shouldn't have hobbies.

No, most of our interactions been through our hobby, you know, this Mutual hobby that we have.

But there's got to be time set aside.

Which means stuff you're not going to do other stuff so you can sit down and it's very thankless.

Nobody, nobody wants to discuss them with you.

It's like, hey, Read Aristotle, discusses me.

What you're doing?

What?

Why would you need to?

Yeah, it's not even part of our vernacular anymore, but when you read it, you start to recognize and the change is relatively slow.

Although I'll say in the last 10 years, the rate of change to our stack, the rate of replacement of what's in that stack of the this, like, you know, Django where you're pushing out one layer and you're putting it, you could Put something else in.

Instead the stack, the replacement of our stack is happening at a nearly visible rate in the last 5 years. 10 years, that's been.

It's been, it's been remarkable faster now.

Yeah, so I think across the whole stack the moral political.

Yes, you're watching it happen.

Yes.

Did you just see that like right in front of us?

We just watched but the Step change.

Yes.

Yes, so that's that's remarkable because it I would say that before this decade, it's been slow enough.

That it's the Frog, you know, boiling slowly in the pot, you know?

But now it's people are like, uh, huh.

What is this?

You know, their hands are getting burned.

Their feet are getting burned in the pot but they don't know what to do about it because they have nothing to compare it to other than 30. 40 years ago when they were growing up.

Like boy things are different than when I was growing up, but I guess that's true of everyone, right?

Okay, I'll stay.

I'll stay in the pot and I'll continue to let the water.

You know, what's up?

But the it's when you read these things that you start to realize, wait a second, I can compare that to Federalist 10 and I believe Federalist 10.

I think he's right.

And this violates that without providing a better explanation without refuting Federalist 10 and that's that to me is a great conversation.

I'm open.

Bring what Bring it on.

I have read more about woke ISM CRT anti-racism all of that in the last two years.

As than probably any other topic, which maybe isn't good for my soul.

But it's, but it.

But I've wanted to understand them.

I've wanted to understand marcuse.

I wanted to understand Foucault.

I wanted to understand Derrida.

I want to understand Crenshaw.

I want to understand G.

She, I want to understand what's happening to my Society.

I want to understand the world that my children were growing up in and they was like, overnight success happens in 40 years, but people to start to notice it.

The roots of what's happening in our society.

Start 5 years ago, 10 years ago they started 100 200 300 years ago, you know, but they are manifesting, you know, with, with technology now it's it's so much easier to spread and broadcast and share memes that call into question the entire basis of Western civilization and mock it and make it look, make it look wrong.

But if you don't have, if you haven't read the books, you can't see the flaw in the mean, in the, in the arguing, the single snarky comment, you know?

It's like, you know, the idea that A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on.

You know that's that's the boots on are these books you know, the LIE sound so good because it appeals to a certain half of that dividing line that Viktor Frankl talked about.

It speaks to certain inclinations within our hearts or even speaks to two legitimate.

Good include like diversity, equity and inclusion.

There is a liberal meaning, to those words, there's a liberal way to implement this.

Em and then there's an illiberal way to implement them, Marxism and stalinism, leninism all sought to achieve Equity.

Equality through specific means and they were disastrous and murderous as a result.

So do you the words are the definition of words are changing underneath as someone.

Someone said we're using the same words, but a different dictionary.

And so people get caught off guard because they think oh yeah, diversity Equity inclusion.

Injustice and but they don't understand there's a different definition now being used.

Yes.

Well and that most virtues is some point become a vice The virtue of compassion.

They've heard every virtue becomes a vice.

It is that's Aristotle.

Exactly.

Their cell says there's an exact way to do it.

Anything to the right or the left is a vice, and that's what he called me.

Call them vices and their excesses or deficiencies.

Every virtue has a thousand ways to be a vice.

There's only one, right?

Wait for it to be virtuous, you know, equality, equality is another, you know, let's look at the word equality for Sample equality, that word under Classical liberalism means equality under the law.

You can't kill someone.

You can't take their stuff rich or poor.

Everyone is subject to the same laws, equality under progressivism or Progressive liberalism is equality of opportunity which means we can take from other people.

If it's for the purpose of equalizing their opportunity, which sounds Sounds, wonderful.

We as long as we're equalizing their health, as long as we're equalizing their education, as long as we're equalizing their housing.

We've got to give everyone an equal starting point.

And we can use coercive Force to do.

So, that is equality under aggressive ISM.

Now, equality under identity Marxism or radical, identitarian ism is equality of outcome.

We all have to end up in the same place, it's not just good enough to to start in the same place we have to end up in the same place.

And so now we're going to try to through coast of course of force, right?

All of histories in justices, let's do reparations.

Let's give take money from people who never had slaves and give it to people who never were slaves.

We've got to right all the wrongs of the past.

There is no, there is no Jesus who's going to right.

All the wrongs of the past, that's our job, for example.

And so we've got to use the law, the coercive power of the state to right all wrongs and and equality means equality of outcome.

So even To Quality changes depending on which religion or philosophy, you're coming from and you have to discuss and, you know, I yeah, you have to, you have to understand the differences and the possible chinks in the armor of each.

This is, this is so I love this stuff.

This is exactly what I'm gonna have you on because I love.

I love hearing from you.

Thank you for the price, you paid to, to learn the stuff and your passion desire.

Or two to share it.

What do you see coming in the next few years?

Just with with the, with what you studied and what you see happening.

So rapidly now and and interestingly not just in one Society but it's having a global impact.

What do you see in the next few years?

You know, depends on where you're talking in the world.

Of course, I'll speak to and you might have some, you know, observations of the places you've lived I'll speak.

For the United States.

Fortunately there is still power in the people.

People can make a difference.

One of the analogies I like to use is that of a water-type ship.

You know once upon a time the hull of a ship you got one hole in it and the whole thing would flood so they decide to know we're going to put water tight doors in our in our Hull so that if a torpedo or a log or whatever.

Pierce is one part of our halt it Isn't flood the entire the entire ship, the separation of powers doctrine, that the founders of our country created creates a honeycomb of power.

Separation of watertight doors, within the ship of State, the ship of the American state.

So that if you have a bad president, or you have a bad Alabama, or you have a bad Judiciary, or you have a bad like, they actually built it with the intent that ooh, if we get the worst people into all of the other, This is, you can see, it gives people, the people, the time to recognize what's going on and get them out because there's only so much they can do because all the separations of power, what we have been systematically doing.

They're not, that's the problem.

Under progressivism, the that they've started to understand to open the watertight doors between the powers because they wanted to do good and they needed to have.

So, the exact you got executive branches are not branches.

You've got executive Administrative you know ABC like Department of Education FBI where they are but they are executor legislature and Judiciary.

All-in-one it's the separation of powers is lost.

Yeah, you've got tax Court's run within the IRS, infrastructures like wait, wheres the separation.

This is it's the same people being paid by the same paycheck.

Where's the separation?

So separate, you know, there's so much that was supposed to be handled at the state level.

That is now handled at the Federal So the separations of power have been greatly damaged, it makes change so much more difficult, but it is still possible.

There are still enough of them that if enough people were to learn and decide who I see the flaws in the current, what we're trying to do things, it could still be fixed, but that to me is the questions like there, it's still possible.

Possible.

If enough people study learn band together work together.

The question is, will they will?

We know that.

Historically we haven't done it optimism for people, getting the education.

They need, you know?

Maybe I know we're coming up on our time, I met bow.

I'll close with this at this analogy of the story.

Probably heard hanging by a thread.

Our constitution is hanging by a thread or, you know, things like hanging by a thread that's a saying and it originates with Damocles the story of Damocles which back in Greece.

He was a very he was a young upstart wanted power wanted Authority, wanted to rule and so I think was dionysius I might get the story wrong but I niecy's said, come here Damocles let me invite you to this.

This Grand Feast that where that basically embodies the life that you want to live.

Wealth of honour prestige of ruling and he sat on his throne on his own Throne.

So Damocles the sitting in the Throne of Dionysus and there was spread form this beautiful banquet and you know the people of people that he wanted to you know you know suck up to him and he wanted power over all there and but suspended over the throne.

And over Damocles was a sword by a single thread and he said Damocles you can stay here and you can have all of this but you've got this.

For your head, or you can go out and you can earn it.

And earn it and learn the lessons that come through, earning it and then have it.

And the the analogy is that all of us are Damocles sitting in that Throne.

We have all of the abundance, all the prosperity.

The bridge is the airplane to technologies that was built by others.

You know the throne room, you know filled with bounteous we that was built by others and we want it but we don't want to do the hard work.

We want to sit on the throne without having done the hard work.

We have to go do the Hard work that were hard.

Work has to be done by every jet at every generation.

We have to understand what this thing of happiness is Aristotle.

Wrong.

Be, did he get it wrong to get the idea of Justice wrong to get the idea of character wrong?

Did you get the idea of pleasure wrong to get the idea of Happiness?

Wrong of justice of Reason did Cicero who built on Aristotle and and then spouse or talk about true Long.

What true law is that there's this law outside of humans that we that the human law has to has to be aligned with this true law that exists outside of humans.

Just like Gravity is the law that exists outside of humans.

There's a lot of human, there's a there are laws that govern the Affairs of man that exists outside of man.

And if you pass a law that's contrary to it, that law is not valid.

That was step, you know, that was thing with Cicero, she was he wrong about that, can we just make whatever laws we want or can I, or is the Declaration of Independence?

Right, which says if your La Vie, EST, Au laits, Trula.

I as a sovereign individual have the right to Throat Institute, new government's for my safety and protection.

That's the, you know, the, you know, even the thing that we started talking about the whole idea of the Declaration of Independence that their inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, Root of Happiness, where did Jefferson really Franklin, probably, because Jefferson put in property, life, liberty and property.

Where did property come from Aristotle?

One of the things that, you know, four elements of a complete life, but the only one of the four that government could really ensure government can ensure happen.

Is it can Wisdom.

It can is your judgment but it can protect property.

So that's a Jefferson said, but then I think was Franklin came along, they're not sure.

Be said, don't start, don't put property, do the highest good, which is the pursuit of happiness, that's what is our name to the right?

And that comes from Aristotle, you know, in any way.

But if you go ask people, what is happiness.

They're not going to talk about virtue to not going to talk about character.

They're going to say, well, for you and might be golfing and for you, it might be gardening.

And for you, it might be like, no, you gotta understand, you know.

Thing and golfing might be an element to it, but it's not the primary structure Gary.

This is awesome, man.

I love all this stuff.

Okay, where where can they get more from you?

Where those about your podcast your blog?

Where can thank you, culture, culture stack taught online?

Is where I amuse, you know, infrequently, but I tried to put it out there.

So culture stack on lot Dot online, Is my blog and you can you can look up culture stack on Spotify and apple podcast, and other, you know, other sources anchor.

They've got a few out there but for the most part, I'm a dad.

I'm a father, I'm trying to make a living and trying to run a school is what I do during the day.

And so it's like, you know, trying to, you know, Eko at understanding.

And of course articulating takes forever trying to write, you know, something that, you know, I feels cohesive but that's where I do it.

So thanks for asking you for your great.

This product and have a lot of respect and admiration for you of doing all those things and yet still making this an important priority in your life, to understand it.

Surely seems and I think that that's modeling for us exactly what we all need to be striving to do but that's understanding us.

Let's do our part and let's be great mint.

And and I will say there are there are phases of life.

You know when you're a newlywed with little kids in school, trying to learn your trade, that might not be the time that you're going to be digging into Aristotle and stuff like that.

But as soon as As you have some free time, which by the way, Leisure used to mean the word Leisure comes from the word school.

They used to spend their Leisure Time, learning those who, at least your time, spent at learning, we've turned Leisure into something very different.

So I do want to, I want people not feel bad like oh, but I'm in the middle of this with my life's.

Like there are times and Seasons.

There was a time and season where I was not doing this.

I have four of my kids are out of the house.

I've just got to I have more leisure time and that's one of the ways I choose to spend it and invite others to do the same.

Yeah.

And like you said earlier, I think many of us can trade.

Some of our entertainment for education.

And yes, make the world different from us.

Yes.

Awesome.

Our children and our grandchildren deserve it.

Yes, exactly.

Do it for the grandkids?

Yeah we're all awesome.

Thanks Gary.

Appreciate been a pleasure.

Thanks so much.