#81 Men Need a Tribe: The Power of Brotherhood and Purpose with Jonathan Rios

There's a deep need inside each man to have a personal code of conduct.

As a man, you have to be around other masculine men.

We make sure that our children are saying it up close and getting that apprenticeship.

Men aren't born, they're built.

Is it blatantly obvious how much I love my wife and my children?

Courage is contagious, just like fear is.

Brother, I was blown away.

Gentlemen, welcome to the Formidable Family Man podcast.

I'm your host, Greg Denning.

Today.

My guest is Jonathan Rios.

Jonathan is a husband and a father of four, and he and his wife have fostered 13 teenage boys, which is just amazing.

He is a Military Academy graduate and tells some some great stories and really important lessons from his experiences there.

He's also a licensed psychotherapist and an author and leads primal trips for men into high octane environments.

I really enjoyed our my conversation with him and in our dialogue today, particularly around how much meaning matters to family men and what we can do to make sure that our lives have that that purpose and meaning and the disciplines that matter so much for each of us.

So jump right in.

Enjoy this episode, brother.

Super excited to have you here with us today, man.

Why don't you introduce yourself to the audience?

Tell us about about yourself, your family, your background a little bit and, and the work you do and why.

What's driving you to do that stuff?

Yeah, my name is Jonathan Rios.

And glad, glad to be here, Greg.

People call me Rios locally.

Let's see, father of four, been married actually 16 years yesterday.

So anniversary yesterday going strong.

We live in South Florida, so Jupiter, which is a beautiful beach, small beach town.

And what I do for work, man, it's kind of split between counseling psychology and then a men's program.

So I have a private therapy practice here in Jupiter, mostly focused on anxiety disorders.

And then I say mostly, I mean, that's maybe 40% of the clientele, but anything under the sun, couples counseling, trauma, a lot of performance coachings.

I work with a lot of athletes who were maybe trying to sign the next contract or go to the next level.

So dealing with anxiety, things like that.

And then that's, that's kind of my 9:00 to 5:00 deal.

And then I have Primal, which is a, it's a, it's a men's development program.

So yeah, I firmly believe that men aren't born, they're built.

So they need to go through a, a formative process of development.

I know I did, I had to, you know, leave behind my adolescence.

My, my dad was part of that.

I have, I've had lots of mentors and coaches over the years to help forge me.

And so Primal is a men's development program that focuses on forging and developing men psychologically, you know, confidence, identity, mental toughness, spiritually, you know, getting to those core questions, who are you, you know, what are you made for?

And then physically, so we do a lot of physical training because I, I do believe you, you don't really know a man till you see him in adversity.

That's right.

So that's right.

When true colors come out, you know, so a lot of our trainings are related to hard physical challenges, whether whether that's in the mountains of North Carolina or Wyoming or even here in Florida.

There's a lot of self-defense training, paramilitary style training as well.

I love that stuff.

We have a good time with it.

I mean, you know, we, we try to keep a healthy balance between the hardcore, it meets the meets the, the healthy, the healthy balance of relationship skills training and all that stuff.

So perfect.

I love it.

That's awesome.

What's what man you're seeing?

You're seeing 2 amazing worlds that fascinate me and my wife tremendously.

Is the psychology piece of it, right?

And seeing what people are facing and what they're dealing with or not dealing with, as the case may be.

And then, you know, getting into the men's world and actually creating courses and experiences that facilitate that growth and transformation.

What, what are you saying?

I'm, I'm really curious about what you're seeing, what kind of trends you're seeing coming through your clinic.

If you're seeing any patterns or trends in the last several years.

And things that are that are kind of sticking out to you in your experience like a sore thumb of like, hey, these are the things that are, they're causing a lot of problems with individuals or families and relationships, of course.

Yeah, You know, it's tricky because I have, I have to kind of pull back sometimes and remember people typically don't go to counseling or therapy until they hit pain.

A lot of people will never go do something like that.

You know, when, when do men go to the dentist?

It's when they have a cavity.

It's when pain is so severe.

So I really, I have to remember that this is a, a fragment of the population, right.

So that being said, I mean, with men specifically, you know, I see a lot of men who are, who weren't fathered, who feel like they don't quite know what they're doing with their lives.

They're kind of listless, aimless, they're dissatisfied with what they're doing.

They feel purposeless, they feel like they, they lack meaning in their lives.

So that's, you know, then the, the, the symptoms of that might be alcoholism or heavy pornography use or just can't stay with one job, bounce from woman to woman, you know, so that that plays out different ways.

But yeah, I think the meaninglessness is a big, is a big pattern that I see also just a lot of guys who have never really learned how to be consistent and dependable.

So if you're not consistent and dependable, you're going to struggle in marriage, you're going to struggle as a parent, you're going to, nobody's going to want to keep you on board as an employee, you're not going to have great relationships because that requires consistency and, you know, resilience really.

So those are, I'd say those are some of the big patterns that I run into on a.

Those are huge.

Let's, let's, let's tap on both of those 'cause they're worth, they're worth discussing.

Have you?

Are you familiar with the book Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankel?

Oh yeah, yeah, I have it.

Give it out to clients.

Yeah, I.

Love that book.

And so he, he dives into the meaning and having meaning, having purpose, having drive, having something that, that, that fuels your fire.

So when, when you're seeing this and, and you see it, you know, in the real deal and you're seeing the consequence of it, what do you, what do you recommend?

What What works for finding and pursuing meaning and purpose and fulfillment, particularly for men?

Yeah, well, part of the problem is, you know, when people go about looking for purpose, a lot of times it becomes very selfish.

It becomes how do I get my needs met and my wants met?

And really true joy is in serving a transcendent cause.

Serving somebody or someone else is bigger than you.

So that's that's part of it's helping guys get in touch with, hey, like, how are you serving the greater good, right.

And while you're in the process of discovering purpose, that's it's a big one.

Another one it, it almost seems contradictory, but another one is, I think it was Howard Thurman said.

Don't ask yourself what the world needs.

Ask yourself what makes you come alive and go and do that, because the world needs people who've come alive.

Yep, one of my favorite quotes I.

Love that helping guys.

I mean, I try to live by that, but helping, helping men get in touch with, OK, what really makes you come alive?

A lot of men can't answer that question.

They're so buried in busyness.

They're not in touch with what what really gets their fire going.

So that's a, you know, setting men on that journey is a really, I think that's part of why I do it is I like watching people come alive to their to their design and what they're what they're created to do, you know?

Right, Yeah, yeah, Well, and, and I like what you said, they're they're, they're so buried in business or busyness and busyness, Yeah, probably more so busyness than even business.

But even in the busyness and and the business, they're often still feeling the void and and it's not filling it up.

You mentioned something that's so powerful about, you know, serving and and doing good.

Men have to be useful.

We have to have some usefulness where we're adding real value.

The word I like to use is, is to become an asset where men need to be assets instead of, you know, liabilities, instead of being a drain on their family or their community or whatever, like being be a true asset to be genuinely and truly useful in in your work, in your life experience and in your opinion, what do you, what does it mean for a man to be useful?

Like where do you see this actually working?

Yeah, useful.

Well, yeah, I use that language a lot as well.

I I think there's a difference between a guy that has great intentions and a a guy that actually does things.

So part of being useful means you're competent and capable, right?

There's a lot of well-intentioned dudes out there and they're they're great, but well, intent.

Your wife doesn't give a shit about your intention.

She cares about what you do.

Neither do your kids.

They won't.

They won't respect you for your intentions.

Exactly.

But but this this crosses a lot of categories.

So a guy who thinks he's formidable as a protector, but doesn't ever train himself as a protect, doesn't do any kind of physical training, doesn't learn any kind of how to defend his family as himself.

So it's it lives in his head mostly, but he's actually not formidable as a protector.

You know, the guy who thinks he's formidable in relationships, but you look at his history doesn't have any long held relationships, even with other men.

It's just bounces from friendship to friendship to friendship from from relationship relationship.

It means he's not formidable in that area because there's not there's no history, there's no longevity there.

So that's something we, you know, I try to, I try to work with men on his, you know, potency, right?

Let's I like that word potency, potential.

So there's men have potential, there's there's potency there, but it's not being used.

It's exactly.

What do we do with your skills, your talents, your vision, your ideas, your goals?

They can't just stay in your journal.

We, we had to put, put some, some legs to these right.

And when guys, when guys put legs to those things, they feel better about themselves because men, when they see themselves making progress, they just feel better.

Humans feel better when we're being productive, not just busy, but productive, right?

So that's how I'd probably approach man into formidable creatures.

I love that.

And you know, in my experience, when a, when a man is living below his potential and he knows it, it really tears him up inside.

And so you're spot on.

Like, as soon as he starts to get real results, there, there there's proof to what he's saying.

So he knows he's moving beyond just being delusional.

Like in his own, in his head, he's, you know, this hardcore bad A but in reality, he's like, you know, when there's real results, he feels fantastic and he feels more of a man.

And so he unlocks the the potency and the power.

Yeah, I love that.

I think it's also, it's attractive too.

I mean, I think when women, when women see not just a busy man, but a man who's sees himself making gains, he feels as though he is making progress.

I think women want, they want that out of the man.

They want an ambitious man, you know.

They want to see the drive because it's sexy.

It's sexy, it's sexy.

I mean, he doesn't need to be a multi billionaire, right?

But they need, but they need to see there's ambition there to grow his Kingdom.

Exactly.

That he'll do it, he'll do whatever it takes.

And, and I think that right there, that's, that's a missing piece for a lot of men.

They're not willing to do whatever it takes.

What do?

You think, man, what's what's, what's stopping them?

Well, I mean, the theory's out on that, but I, I think a big component is one in four American homes specifically or without a father now.

So, you know, if you don't have some kind of guide to walk you towards something, you're just kind of aimless.

You don't quite know.

I mean, I talked to guys that are 45 years old.

They're like I no one ever taught me how to write a check.

No one ever taught me how to do my laundry.

I had to like YouTube it.

You know, no one ever taught me proper hygiene.

So it with these things seem like, but you should just figure that out.

But some of these basics in life.

No one ever taught me how to treat a woman appropriately.

They've never seen it.

They've never been exposed to it.

And then, and yeah, you're you're spot on.

I love that.

Because unless you're exposed to it up close, you know, a video might help, a movie might help, a documentary, hearing about somebody, you know, seeing something about them and you know, social media.

But up close exposure to somebody who's doing it well is a total game changer.

And, and you're absolutely right, they're not saying it.

Yeah, I don't, I, I think it was Robert Bly wrote, he wrote a lot about the men in the men's movement in the early days.

And he, he said something to the effect of, you know, for all of human history, men worked in close proximity to their fathers, right?

Murderously close proximity.

So if your dad was a plumber, you were learning the trade, the craft, you were learning how to get up early with the sunrise, you know, you basically were shadowing, you were an apprentice.

But that is not, that is such a foreign concept for most men now.

They've not been apprenticed in things that matter, right?

Relationship skills, brotherhood, physical health, mental health, all these things.

So that's, that's part of it, man.

That's the missing piece for a lot of men, dude.

So, OK, let's, let's do two things real quick.

Let's let's talk about where men who haven't seen it done well and they and they, they need to see it.

What can they do?

And then two for, for those men who are listening who have kids, let's walk through you and I what that looks like so that we make sure that our children are seeing it up close and, and getting that apprenticeship you're talking about.

So which one would you want to tackle first?

Which question?

Let's see the first one.

So the men that like, hey, I, I never saw it that, that was my, that was my experience, right?

My, my dad split when I was little.

Stepdads came and went and, and unfortunately none of the stepdads were, were showing up like like they need, like I need it like my mom needs, like my siblings needed.

And so I left home at 16 and, and I was, I was living in a bad part of town and surrounded by youth who were also aimless and adults who were aimless, who didn't know which way they were going.

And the only thing that changed the trajectory of my life is the desperation.

I was so lonely and so desperate.

It gave me this insatiable hunger to find the secrets to happiness and success.

And that drove me to read every book I could get my hands on and start paying attention and start asking people and interviewing people.

Like I went seeking answers, but most of the people I was surrounded by just stayed.

So I I missed that.

But like, let's talk about that.

What?

What can men do to see modeled what it means to be a myth?

Yeah, well, I'll tell you a couple years ago, I like to share the story.

A couple years ago, I, I ran into an old professor for my grad program and he had an upcoming lecture.

He invited me to the lecture.

I said, sure, I'd love to come.

And then he actually said, hey, before the lecture, why don't we just go get breakfast and catch up?

So I was like, yeah, because this is the guy I really look up to, you know?

So I, I get there early, we go to breakfast, we have a great conversation, catching up, spent a couple years, I go to the lecture, nails it out of the park.

It's a great, great time.

At the end of the lecture, there's people lined up to to speak with him and shake his hand.

He beelines it for me and just tells me, Hey, Rios.

I wanted to let you know, man, I've really enjoyed our conversation over breakfast.

I'd, I'd love to host you and your wife for dinner.

We, we like to cook for people.

Would you guys come to our house and do I'm like, yeah, we'd love, we'd love to do that.

And I, I didn't, it's funny because I didn't realize that I, I was wanting this or needing it, but I, I, I was being validated by, by a man that I esteemed.

And it felt really good.

And I didn't go there looking, thinking I needed that or wanted that.

But it was like something happened inside of me while he was talking to me.

And I use that as a, as an illustration to say men, we have a need to be validated by other men that we esteem.

OK, well, that's a dad, a boss, a coach and somebody that you look up to respect.

You have a masculine need to have that met, OK.

And for the most part, a lot of men are lone Rangers.

They, they, they work alone, they work in isolation.

I got buddies who are just like, I don't need other guy friends, like I've got my wife, right.

But the problem with that is you do need masculine connection.

Absolutely.

It's not.

It's not like a thing you can go without, OK, But only masculinity bestows masculinity.

Femininity can't give you that.

Your wife can't give you that.

You know, she can give you other things, but she can't give you that.

So I think what a lot of guys need to understand is, well, if you want to be sharp as a man, you have to be around other masculine men who can then sharpen you.

Otherwise you just think you're sharp, but you're really dull.

Yeah, so, and and I get it.

I get it because I can relate to The Lone Ranger thing.

I, I have that natural tendency.

I don't necessarily feel like I need to go hang out with people, you know, but I know this having done, you know, I played, I played soccer my entire life up until about 29.

I played for the Olympic development program in America.

I played Division One and then played in Ireland after college, played in the, in the second division here in the States.

So I always had, I was always around dudes and coaches and mentors that were always in my face trying to sharpen me.

And then I transitioned into jiu jitsu a bit.

And then again, you're just around lions, right?

And, and so, and through that process, I had lots of different mentors.

So I understand the necessity of having other men to sharpen me through, even through competition, like friendly competition, right?

So I think men who have never had that don't they don't know what they're missing, right?

But I'm telling you, like the guys that are listening, you need masculine connection, you need to be sharpened.

You need kings and mentors and sages in your life to help coach you through seasons of life, whether it's through how parenting or growing your business.

You're maybe it's it's through the area of forgiveness or whatever, whatever you might need in that season.

But if you're a Lone Ranger on an island, then you just suffer without any solutions and you get stunted.

How can a knife be sharp unless it unless there's friction involved, right?

So it's uncomfortable.

So a lot of guys will avoid it, right?

They'll avoid the accountability.

They'll avoid being held to a standard.

So, yeah, I, I trained at one of the service academies for undergrad, trained with the Army for four years.

And you know, you're held to very high standards.

And if you don't meet the standard, you're out, right?

And it sounds mean, but it's like, no, like if we want to maintain our potency, we have to have a standard.

Exactly.

We can't lower it to accommodate your mediocrity. 100%.

So guys need to like you need to recognize if I want to be a high level dude, I've got to raise my standards, which means I got to be around other men of high standard.

That's what I was going to say.

The way, the way to check your standard and keep it hot is getting around other men in some kind of friendly competition where you're being tested.

Because otherwise every one of us can slip into this, this delusional idea of like how tough I am.

I'm the, I'm super tough until I get in the mats and, and I get humbled again and again and again.

Then I come home like I'm not tough enough, right?

You're, you're Mr. Macho Man with your wife and your kids and you roll in the gym or you know, some endurance event with somebody who's just an absolute animal and, and you get, you get checked.

Yeah, and the same way I that's you get humility.

Yeah, exactly.

And it keeps you.

You know, I would say, I would say if, if you keep the right perspective, it's this combination of humility and hunger, you get humbled.

And then if if, if you're in there, you get hungry too, to want to level up, to want to meet the standard, to keep the standard.

I love that.

Well, I think part of it is you get inspired, right?

Right.

You're like, wow, this guy's over here.

Maybe I could do that, you know, Oh, that's what's available.

I want that right?

And that, that that contributes.

So I always tell guys who, who do you have in your life that inspires you?

Like do you have any friends that inspire you?

Because if you don't you, you might be hanging out with the wrong people.

Well, yeah, And that's a nice way of putting it.

Like, it's like you're 100% hanging around the wrong people.

If you don't have people in your life that you respect that are inspiring you and calling you out, you're hanging around the wrong people.

But I love that.

I love that.

OK, let's, let's shift gears here a little bit.

Let's talk about this whole idea of creating a family legacy of, of really leaning into what you want to create moving forward.

And one of the questions I I love to ask and to think about myself is, you know, if your kids could remember only one thing about you, what would you want that to be and why?

Yeah, I, I think probably just based on like my life history, it would the legacy I want to mostly is to live life with audacious boldness and to really go for, go for whatever God has for you.

And the clock is ticking.

So don't fool yourself, right?

You really need to go for it.

You don't have time to be timid.

So yeah, I, when I was 17, I just killed my best friend in a car accident.

I lost control of the vehicle.

I was being I was joking around behind the wheel.

We flipped 4 times.

He he flat lined three times, broke his spinal cord was in ICU for for weeks.

Did you know, didn't know if he was going to make it.

But anyways, that that left the indelible mark in my life.

I realized at 17 like, wow, this is really fragile.

This is really fragile and hey, I need to become more responsible, but I got to really go for this because you never know, you know how life's fragile.

So anyways, that's, that's one of the ways I try to, to lead my, my kids and my, and my family is to just go.

We don't have time to be timid guys like we need to.

You need to make, you need to have wisdom, right?

You need to have calculated strategies, but you, you don't have time to accommodate your fears.

In fact, the fears you accommodate become your stealing, you know.

So I think my, I think I could say with confidence if I died today, my family could say that at my funeral and with with honesty and say this is my dad was actually like this.

I love that in my mind's eye, I can, I can see men who are listening and hearing this saying, how do you pull that off?

Like because you're trying to provide financially, so you're trying to build your business, you're trying to be a good husband, you're trying to be a good father.

You're just taking care of all the stuff and things come with having a house and cars and paying the bills.

Like where, where do you fit in pursuing this boldness like living deliberately?

Where where does the?

Where does that even fit in?

Yeah, it's, it's like, you know, boldness mixed with urgency.

Yeah.

So right, Well, we'll put it plainly.

If you're not, if you don't have urgency in your marriage, it's probably stagnant.

If you don't have boldness and urgency in your business, then you're probably your business probably isn't doing well.

You know, if you're a single dude and you want to be in a relationship but you don't have any kind of urgency or boldness to go approach women, Good luck buddy.

You're probably not going to land a woman.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Good luck with that, not going to work.

And look, man like it, we all have fears.

There's no fearless men out there.

There's just men who are who are who are apprehensive, but they go towards the Dragons anyways.

And I've that's that's across not just men, that's women too, right?

So how do I be bold in my day-to-day life?

Every day you wake up, fear is there to restrict you from those things you're meant to be doing and you'll either accommodate it or you'll move towards it.

It's like fear is either suffocating you or you're suffocating it.

There's really no neutral ground.

So I, you know, I, I think of, I think boldness.

It's not always like it's not always William Wallace.

Sometimes it's, it's just simply like having a boundary with somebody at your office, right?

Sometimes it's, you know, refusing to coddle common delusions other people try to press onto you.

Yes, right.

It's it's no, I'm not, I don't play that game.

I'm not doing that.

And and being demonstrating that to your family, like, hey, we in our family, we think critically about things.

We ask hard questions.

We don't just accept narratives that come our way hook, line and sinker.

Like we're always asking, is this right?

Should we be doing this?

Is this good for us?

Is this good for them?

So I think boldness and urgency it it, it's not always sexy.

I think it's day-to-day stuff.

I think it takes tremendous boldness to confront your wife if she's doing something that's consistently, that consistently feels disrespectful to you.

I think that that's a form of courage, right?

So I have to do the same with yourself because how's that?

You just call yourself out when you're, when you're playing small.

Well, I, I kept thinking here while you're, while you're saying this, it's like it's where we're being passive, where, where we're just kind of letting things be.

You know, it's the, it's a good enough attitude and it's good enough like, and you know, work's OK, family's OK.

It's good enough.

Like there's no boldness there.

There's no urgency there.

And so you're, you're present, but you're not really showing up.

So man, you're absolutely right.

It's getting rid of all that passivity, bringing passion.

And it's whether it's at the, at the dinner table and the conversations we're having or, or, you know, when you show up for a few hours of work, you actually work during those hours and you're fully engaged with what you're doing.

Right.

I always tell people, man, if you struggle with fire and and and boldness, get around people that are bold because it's contagious.

Courage is contagious, just like fear is.

Get around people that are apprehensive and worry warts that gets on you.

You get around people that are like going for the juggler in life that gets on you.

There's a it's contagious.

So urgency is contagious.

Boldness is contagious.

You know, visions contagious.

You get around other dudes that are going for things.

They have a vision that they're striving for.

It's like you have to.

Raise your sights.

You have to raise your sights.

You can't be around them and not.

Yeah, Well, well, two things happen.

You either go humbly go, I, I want to be like that.

So I'm going to expose myself to that kind of environment.

And that feels uncomfortable because I I'm not at that level yet and I feel a little bit inferior.

But I'm going to keep, I'm going to stay here.

I'm going to learn or, or you go, that's for the birds.

I don't those guys are those guys are too much.

They're ridiculous.

And you you go over here to, to solo world and you justify it.

And a lot of guys do that, that they just will not step into the fire.

Because it's uncomfortable.

It's it's, it's more than uncomfortable.

It triggers all your insecurities.

I don't know about you.

I don't really like having my insecurities triggered.

Right.

Nobody does.

And being called out, you're right.

And, and as you like, you said that so well, I, I had this, just this idea, Carl Jun, which I'm, I'm sure you're very familiar with him, talked about, you know what I, well, I said looking into the abyss, right, or the void.

It's just, it's like facing those things that that scare you, that intimidate you, that you're facing the things you don't want to face that you're trying to get around or, or not have to deal with.

But you're right, if we, if we step in that presence, we have to face that stuff.

And that's, that's to me, that's the only option.

Good.

What are you going to do?

Settle?

You're going to acquiesce and live a lame existence.

Like if you want to go anywhere with yourself and your family and your life, you got to face those those weaknesses with courage and and move forward.

You know, as you're saying that I, I think, I think a lot of us, I could just talk to myself.

We have a tendency where we are, we can be bold in moments, but we're not consistently bold, right?

So if you're, if you're, it's like a, it's like an athlete who's who's plays really well every 4th game, but he's not consistent, right?

It's just probably not going to have a great career.

Consistency can is the is probably the key ingredient.

So you have to kind of have a creed and a standard.

I'm going to consistently live with boldness, live with urgency.

I'm not, that's not going to be a Monday thing.

It's going to be an everyday thing that becomes the habit of your life.

I'm going to be bold with women.

I'm going to be bold with work.

I'm going to be bold with my faith, whatever it is.

And I think that consistency is probably or inconsistency is is probably the kryptonite of the modern.

So, OK, Rios, logistically brother, how does a guy pull that off?

Because somebody listening to this could, could say, you know what, Yes, I'm in.

I'm going to be consistently bold.

But Wednesday morning slaps him in the face and he wants to pull back.

So what has worked for you personally to help you be consistently bold and courageous?

How do you how do you keep your edge?

How do you fuel your own fire?

Well, for me, a big part of it is I, I've, I've had to step into leadership positions that it's either, it's either put up or shut up.

All right, so when I decided to get married, it's like put up or shut up.

When when we turned the corner and had babies, put up or shut up.

And when I started a business, put up or shut up.

And then when I started primal, it's like, dude, you're either full of shit or you're living this out right?

So it's and then I've got guys in my life who go bro, Rios, you're just full of hot air.

You said that, but you're not doing that right.

So I think a, a, a big like a practical thing guys need to realize is you, you need accountability for two reasons.

One is you need accountability for obviously those struggles you may have where we all have demons we're wrestling with.

But also, you need to be held accountable for your abilities, for your skills, for your vision, for your talents, for your ideas.

You need someone who's going, hey, Rios, that vision that you had, how's that coming?

Are you following through with that?

Hey, those Alex.

Hey, I see you're really talented this Eric, why the why aren't you doing anything with that?

I need to be held accountable on both fronts.

And a lot of guys, 'cause they're lone Rangers, they don't have a ton of that.

Right, they just.

Try to do it all themselves.

There's no transparency, even with their wives or their children.

I, I, I keep coming across men who they're so lone wolf, like they don't even have any transparency in their own family.

They're, they're hiding every part of them where, where you're saying no and take on more responsibility, expose more of it.

Let your real results be visible so you have some accountability and get in a group that of of people that will hold you accountable for that.

Right.

Yeah, you responsibility is the key at stepping.

When you step into responsibility, here's a great way to think about it.

I've never lived in Alaska, but when you look at sled dogs, sled dogs are designed to run hard and they're designed to pull heavyweight.

And if they're not pulling heavyweight or running hard, they're they're just destroying the cage, right?

It has to that energy, that strength has to be channelled.

When men aren't stepping into responsibility, carrying a burden on behalf of others, not just selfishly, but on behalf of others.

I'm carrying burdens, I'm engaging responsibility.

That's when the men start to feel like they're they're on purpose.

They feel like they're heading in a particular direction.

You know, bigger than them.

It's not just about you, it's about the weight you're pulling on behalf of other people.

I love that.

So at the I guess the the guy who's listening it might.

My advice would be who?

What are the whose burdens are you carrying besides yourself, you know, And are you running hard?

Are you the the sled dog in a cage that's just biting his nails, going crazy, feeling listlessness and restlessness and frustration?

It's probably because you're made to run.

Exactly, and you need to be out running.

Man, that's such a great comparison took I took our whole family.

We went up to the very top of Norway in the winter and we, we got on the sled dogs and we went out nice.

I was blown away because I thought, you know, we, we loaded up a sled and there's two people on the sled and, and you know, I'm, I'm at, I'm at 200 lbs and my son was with me and he's, you know, a hundred 170 lbs.

I'm like, OK, that's kind of heavy.

And these dogs and, and, and they're wild.

Like, I wonder if they like this or, you know, you're, you're just, they just do it because they have to brother.

I was blown away.

Those things.

What to run at full speed for as long as they can.

And, and I just read some research last couple weeks that they can run for like 14 hours every day back-to-back for two weeks.

And I mean, they just go and go and go.

In fact, they told me there they'll, they'll give them this.

They get all the, the excess from like moose and elk and, and all these animals and they, and they make these bricks.

They're like 10,000 calories.

Just give it a deal every day.

These things want to run every time we stop, brother, or every time you slow down, they would yap and bark and look back.

And I mean, they want.

Oh, yeah.

So this is purpose comparisons.

Like unless we put the fire out, then are driven to be useful, to do something with themselves, to be making a difference in their families and in the world.

And you're absolutely right.

If we're just playing small and living in our little cage that we've created, by the way, then you're right.

We're just going to be getting into trouble and and and going in circles.

Just wondering why this sucks.

What one problem I see with a lot of guys, we live in an interesting time because there's so many options.

Rios.

Like what?

What should I do?

Like we're because I want to go in that direction, But what direction?

What path should I take?

You know, Which girl should I choose?

There's a billion of them, you know, and, or which job should I take, right?

I think a lot of men are frozen because there's so many options.

They don't know which target to aim for.

And yeah, I, I think, I think a lot of guys who may be listening, I, I actually don't know what, who follows you and who doesn't.

But I run into a lot of guys, they don't really have a clear vision.

They haven't identified with clarity what they're going to go hunt down.

Yes, it is.

Right.

So that's a big part of it is spending some calculated time getting clarity on your vision.

What is it that I feel like I'm uniquely crafted to go do, you know, what is it that makes me come alive?

What is it?

What skills might I have through experience or through training that I can begin to implement some?

For a lot of guys that they need actual, they just need to go develop some skills 1st and that opens up the horizon, you know, but it's rare that I meet a guy.

It's really rare that I meet a guy who kind of knew his path when he was a kid and just knew when you know, when I grow up, I'm going to be a firefighter.

You might, I might meet one guy like that out of 100.

But for the most, for most of us, we didn't know what we wanted to pursue, but we but we were willing to go try stuff, willing to go have experiences.

And I always, I always tell people this information informs experience transforms beautiful.

So for the most part, you're not going to the things that are going to transform.

You aren't going to be on YouTube and they're not going to be in a book.

You have to go have lived experience with you.

Now I'll read a lot and I watch YouTube.

OK, so I'm not knocking that, but you have to go have experiences that form you, that that teach you, Hey, I am good at this.

Or you know what?

This isn't for me, and unless you're willing to be bold and go after things, you'll never have that experience.

So I love that.

OK, let's, let's, let's hit a couple of those things because I am an avid reader and I'm all about experience, brother.

So share a couple books that have been transformational for you and then let's I want to hear a couple stories of experiences that have been transformational for you.

Yeah, well, you named one earlier.

Men search for meeting.

I I think the the idea that if a man has a meaning, he can endure massive suffering, right?

He can endure a lot if he knows why he's enduring it.

And obviously wild at heart, like really impacted me as a young man that influenced travel.

Like I traveled a lot, lived in Europe, lived in Africa, things like that.

But just going going after the the top, the the three things that Eldridge talked about in that book or every, every man needs an adventure to live, a beauty to rescue, like a woman to pursue and a battle to fight.

He needs to fight for something that's bigger than him.

OK.

And then really a a really big powerhouse book for me was Tuesdays with Maury.

I don't know if you ever read that one.

No.

I haven't read that one.

This is a short book, but it's it's really it's a young man who has a mentor, graduates from college, hasn't seen his mentor for 20 years, then sees him one night on the nightly news because he's dying of Lou Gehrig's disease and he's being interviewed on Nightline.

So he tracks down his old mentor and they begin to have these conversations as he's slowly dying.

And it just, it puts puts life in the context and love in the context and going for things and really well written.

But Tuesday's the more I highly recommend.

Yeah.

So those are those are a couple.

I I do like a more modern book.

It's by a guy named Steven Mansfield.

It's called Mansfield's Book of Manly Men.

And they're basically short, short biographies of men throughout the ages.

Teddy Roosevelt.

Rudyard.

He's a hero of mine.

Right, a lot of these guys that you know what, Jim Bridger, some of the frontiersmen, you know, so they're just short, short chapters, but they're they're jam packed with a lot of Nuggets of wisdom and gold.

So those are a few recommendations I.

Love that OK now experiences what are some experiences that have been transformational for you Let's.

See, yeah, Well, I would say the, the, the car accident, I mentioned that that kind of gave me a sense of urgency, I think.

And then I trained at VMI, which is one of the service academies here in the States.

So the, the, the experience there that really, I think left an imprint.

We, we had the something called the honor code.

The honor code went like this.

A cadet will not lie, cheat or steal nor tolerate those who do.

And if you violated the honor code, there were no second tries.

They would wake you up at 2:00 AM, three AM with the sound of a drum beat right out of your dead sleep.

You'd have to go out the barracks and stand on the stoop and think of 1000 thousands of dudes at 2:00 AM looking down into the courtyard.

And there's a group of a, there's a group of, it's the, let's call them a group of higher ranking officials that would announce the name of the individual who had violated the code.

And they'd say cadet so and so violated the code.

The code in this way.

He placed personal gain above personal honor.

His name shall never be mentioned again.

And they would, and then they, they would, everybody would go back to the rooms and try to fall asleep again and you'd never see that guy again.

He placed personal gain above personal honor.

His name shall never be mentioning it.

Now, none of us liked that.

I hated it.

You lived with a sense of dread, like did I violate some something by accident?

But what it taught me was there are standards and you either live by them or you don't.

And because of that, we had a a very tight knit brotherhood, you know.

So that was AII rushed, the story about that, that left, I don't know if it's trauma or just left an indelible mark on it.

Left a mark that's so powerful.

Let's let's talk on that just for a second, because there's this there's a deep need inside each man to have a personal code of conduct to have to have a set of standards that are uniquely his.

Now he can, he can borrow them from his, his family, from his church, from, from great books, from his work environment, but he has to make them his own.

He has to set standards, high standards, challenging standards that are his, his, his personal code of conduct.

And, and only he will know if he truly lives by that or not.

But every time we violate those things, we're violating something inside of us.

We, we can't trust ourselves.

And if we can't trust ourselves, then others won't trust us.

And, and we're breaking these commit.

We, we make a commitment, we break a commitment.

So then it just starts to tear us to pieces and, and we live in this incongruence that keeps us from really progressing and climbing in life.

So I love that idea.

We have to hold high standards for ourselves.

They have to be ours.

If, if I'm only doing it because, you know, so and so says so or this is what they do over here.

It's, it's too separated from me.

It's too far away.

They have to be mine and I have to live by them independent of of circumstances and situations.

Yeah, it's tricky.

It's tricky because when you talk about standards, some guys will slide into perfectionism and thinking, you know, it's like if you, if you screw up, then like there's one and done and then there's no second try, you know, and one of the things I've been blessed over to, to be part of over the years is just South Florida.

It's a very big, it's very big.

And recovery, the recovery world's very big here.

So I mean, it's the addiction capital, addiction treatment center capital of the United States is in South.

Florida.

I didn't.

Know that, you know, part of the part of the 12 step process is progress, not perfection.

You know so, but we are, we do have standards.

One of the standards is like ruthless honesty about our our character defects and about how we missed it and being held accountable.

So people that are getting clean.

Part of is it's it's about holding a balance between there's a standard, but it's progress, not perfection.

And I have a community that helps me along the way as I'm making gains.

Beautiful.

So there's grace in there, you know, like we need.

I'm more, I like hardcore stuff, man.

I like to be held to high standards and I believe in that.

I also believe in like ridiculous grace where where you get, you do get second tries and God actually likes you and you, he he, we believe in you and you can do this and you're not going to nail it every day, but get back up on the horse.

Let's go, right?

I think there's a, there's a way to hold the balance.

Now going back to that standard I mentioned at, at VMI with the, with the honor code.

I I think in the same breath, in the same breath, if you don't have standards and you lower those, you lose your potency and you enter mediocrity.

And we can't.

We can't do that either.

So it's it's maintaining the standard, it's holding up an ideal, it's striving for it every day when you fall down, get back up and keep striving for it.

Don't.

Don't take it down because you fell down.

Right.

Don't look, you know, it's like the interesting goals and standards.

Like think of a football field or think of it like soccer goals.

You can always move the goal, right?

But your standards should never shift.

So a good, a good idea standard might be I don't quit when I'm tired, I stop when I'm finished.

That's a that's a standard.

You don't, you don't shift from that standard.

You know, I, I speak the truth, even if it cost me something, that's a standard.

You know, I, I, I live to serve.

That's a standard.

So I think guys have to get clear and you don't need a list of 100.

I mean, actually, as we're saying this, these are mine, they're on for printed.

These are, it's a, this is the creed that I live by and I I occasionally review them and this is laminated.

So yeah, I mean, this isn't bullshit.

Like I try to live that.

Out exactly.

I love it.

And one thing that that I thought about a couple of times during our conversation is several years ago, I, you know, I just was wasn't assessing myself in the same, in the same light of as our conversation here is like, am I really, am I living this stuff or, or am I am I just delusional?

And an idea came to me about a silent film.

I thought if my life were a silent film, I take away all the, all the talking I get to do and I just look at my, my life as a silent film.

What's there like real results?

And if if people were watching, what would they see?

Is it blatantly obvious how much I love my wife and my children, that I'm taking care of my body, that I have a set of standards that I'm living by them?

Again, this is just silent, right?

It's, it's seen in, in results because results don't lie.

And, and you're right, we have to live by these principles and standards that we we profess to believe.

I love that brother.

Yeah, that's a good.

That's a that's a great exercise.

I think more men should try to take that seriously.

Powerful.

Man, Rios, this has been a great conversation.

Let's let's just wrap up right there.

That's perfect.

What one last thing that or any last thing that you feel like is, is a core part of your message.

Like if you had if you had the attention of, you know, all the men and you had a chance to share one powerful core message, the the thing that you know resonates the most maybe from you, what would it be?

What would you share?

We we touched on a little bit, but you know, if you're experiencing meaninglessness in your life, it's probably because you're leave you're living a meaningless life, right?

So if you that means you're not doing things that are noteworthy doing of it, right, you might have great intentions, but if you're going to leave an indelible mark on your family, on your culture, you have to do meaningful things.

You can't just read about it in a book.

You can't just watch it on YouTube.

You've got to go do things that matter.

And it's got to be bigger than you.

If it's if it's if just serving you is the totality of your life, you've missed it.

Jesus said it this way.

I said, if you want to find your life, you got to lose it, right?

You get to like you got to turn outward.

You got to lay down your life towards something transcendent, something bigger than you.

So you know what?

I love one thing I love out of the many things that I love about being a therapist, I get to like dive into other people's worlds and forget about my life for a while.

I get to just check out.

And I'm not thinking about Rios.

I'm thinking about you.

And I'm all in on you.

And it's such a breath of fresh air, you know, because sometimes just be in your head and thinking about you becomes miserable, right?

So begin to serve other people and apply your talents and meaning will find you.

Man, I love that.

And in the 1st place that my mind goes is for our wives and our children.

And like you said, lean into my wife so much and, and her desires and her dreams and her needs that I forget myself.

And I'm, I'm focused on serving her, showing up for her and doing that with each of my children.

Right.

You like really, truly caring, like waking up with this, this drive and desire and passion to be useful and helpful and, and to find meaning outside of myself.

I love that brother.

I love it.

It's a it's a problem for a lot of guys, but, but we can wake up like you're not, you're not doomed to, to your upbringing or to what you were taught.

You can change the script.

Exactly.

You're not stuck there.

I love it, brother.

OK, Anywhere.

Where can men connect with you?

Yeah, so you can go on my website, which I'll, I'll send you that stuff.

And then Primal Virtues on Instagram, I've got some stuff there, videos and blogs.

And then outside of that, man, just do.

People can e-mail me which, which I can send later.

The emails, it's hello at thrive.co.

But the spelling's funny, so I'll drop that.

I'll drop that.

Yep.

I'll, I'll put that on the show notes, brother.

Thank you.

Thanks.

Thanks for the work you do in your clinic and thanks for the work you do with men and for and for striving to live what you believe the world needs more men who are are practicing it, living it, striving because every, every man who seeks to be his best self makes the world a better place.

And there's unbelievable power in that.

And then the unity of the, the pack of men who are living that way.

It it's one of the most powerful forces on Earth.

Appreciate that man.

I I receive it, receive it.

I I've actually kind of been out of the podcast game for a while.

I've said no to a lot of people.

Figured it was time.

Love it.

Well, thank you brother.

Appreciate your time and your message.

Thanks.

Thanks, Greg.

Appreciate it.