EMERGENCY DROP | Crime Wire Weekly: Christa Pike Botched Execution

0:00 Hey everyone, and you might be surprised right now because we don't normally do two drops in one day. But let me explain to you quickly what has led to all this. Obviously, if you follow true crime in any way, shape, or form, you've probably heard about the boxed Botched? Botched. We even botched the botching talk. The whole freaking podcast. So the botched execution of Krista Pike. Now, as things always work when you have a news-related podcast, as soon as you put something out there, something happens. And it's like, well, we can't stop what we've already recorded.

0:42 So you are going to hear on CrimeWire Weekly, our regular drop, us talking about Krista Pike's execution actually being halted. And we'll get into that in just a second. But you'll never hear her say anything about her botched execution because at the time we recorded, she hadn't scheduled the execution yet for the second time. Right. They just halted it and we were waiting and pending to see how long that would be. And then wouldn't you know, as soon as we walk out the dadgum studio and get home. Yeah. It's back home. Yeah. So we're going to kind of catch you up right now with this emergency drop and As Kelly just said, they rescheduled the execution for Wednesday night, and it was actually set for 10 a.m. originally, but the appeals court for the Sixth Circuit actually issued a temporary stay, and the reason for that was they wanted to see if Pike's childhood history of sex abuse was was enough to stop the execution. Look, these defense teams, they're grasping at straws at this point. You're in the 11th hour. But they appealed that and they did get a stay because of that appeal. And so at that point, it goes to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court is either going to say, yes, we're going to allow it to go on or no, we're not. We're going to look deeper into this.

2:11 Well, I want to add something to that real quick. When our original drop, I was like, what the hell, man? It's been 20 years, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They should have had this in order by now. And while I still stand on that statement, I got to thinking about it more when I went home last night and I've said to myself, well, in the spirit of due diligence, I guess, I guess I get it more than what I said when we first originally recorded, because you are putting someone to death and, um, I would say that if they are raising all of this and it was completely ignored, then they still have the argument of, oh, we tried to raise this, you know, and y'all ignored it, blah, blah, blah. Well, by them doing that temporary stay that early in the morning, then it did give them time to think it over, come back, because as long as it was done by midnight, they were still in the same day. So I just thought I'd add that.

2:56 Okay, so... Supreme Court looks at that. They say, no, we're going to let it go on. And it was actually a six to three vote in favor of continuing on with that execution. So everything is back on. Right. And that was about five fifty p.m. yesterday. So, look, they didn't waste no time. Actually, media witnesses entered what's known as the witness room around 630 that evening, and they waited for nearly an hour. Some reported hearing groaning and crying before the microphone was on and the curtain was open. So she goes in there, they close the curtain, and they basically hook her up. to everything. And this is lethal injection. I know all over the United States, there's different methods of execution here in Louisiana. We use nitrogen hypoxia for our executions because of the, uh, the stay, if you will, on the drugs that you can get for lethal injection, at least here in the state of Louisiana. So, uh, other parts of the world of the country, they, they even have, what is it? Uh, where they shoot you.

4:10 But yeah they got firing squad that's what i'm trying to some states have um gas chamber but they use cyanide tablets um and it ebbs i've never heard of the cyanide tablets huh but again this ebbs and flows so i haven't looked up as of 2026 what states have what so just to be clear if you're in a state that's changed something but um yeah i mean the. State fact check kelly on that son do it i never heard of that one because that that's like a horrific death Which I know you would say, I don't care. They should die horrifically. But usually the United States is humane executions. Actually, I think you'd be surprised because I do a lot of thinking and self-reflection on execution. And I'll be brief here real quick. But my thoughts in my 42nd year of life on this earth are, what is the difference between vengeance and revenge? you know, and holding people accountable.

5:03 And that's why, like, I'm not, I don't think we should have the electric chair. I don't, I don't, I'm not a fan of that. And if we're that brutal, then what separates us from the people that we're executing? I don't want to be brutal to people. Maybe they deserve it. Maybe they absolutely positively without question deserve everything that they get, but I have to sleep good at night. I have to lay my head down on a pillow where I sleep good at night. And for all the grace that God has shown me, um, One thing I can be certain about is that if it were me actually doing it, the one actually walking in the room, I would prefer something clinical that I don't want. I personally don't want to be on the same level as a brutal killer. And so I don't want the brutality, but I do want them to be equal.

5:45 I've always looked at it as that's what separates us from other countries. It's the fact that we're humane in the way that we execute. We're not like the Middle East where they literally chop your head. Off in public. Your emotions obviously do take over in the throes of when something is happening. If that was my child, if Colleen Slimmer, who was the victim in this case, was my child, I wouldn't give a damn what you did to them as long as they were gone. No. You know, I'm in a different position. And so, you know, I guess. And a lot of, believe it or not, a lot of people that have been victims of that don't necessarily agree with execution. I've covered several cases where they didn't want the people executed. Yeah. The victim's family. So it just depends on who you are and all of that. Sure.

6:30 You know. All right, so as I said, she goes in there, they close the curtain, they do all these hookups, and about 7.30, that curtain opens back up. This is yesterday evening. Pike, who is 50, was strapped into the gurney. She had her spiritual advisor with her, and the last words that she gave were, or her supposed last words, were, I'm going to leave this world the way I spent most of my life, and that is in love. She said she loved the people who hated her as well as those on her side, then said, I'm at peace. I'm ready to be free. This is a happy day. She and her spiritual advisor also sang and repeated a short blessing about peace and kindness. Now, about 7.34 p.m., she said, quote, my arms feel like they're about to burst open. And later, quote, she said, one spot is really throbbing. She asked her spiritual advisor if that was supposed to happen. Witnesses then described her as blinking, smiling, laughing once or twice, and then a tear rolling down her right cheek. She started kicking at the sheet, and it kept sliding off of her.

7:48 At 7.41 p.m., an employee placed a rock in view of the witnesses. uh, which is, uh, I don't know where they got a rock. That's what it said. I don't know why they didn't just close the curtain. Uh, but it was, uh, primarily media who had covered Tennessee executions. Uh, and they actually tried to calm some people down who started getting upset, seeing the, um, the blanket getting kicked off of her. And they said, this is, this always happens. It It's when someone kind of goes into a comatose state. Now, Pike's jaw was still moving. Minutes later, she opened her mouth very wide and witnesses described it as a large yawn and then said something that was inaudible. The curtain then closed and the spiritual advisor was asked to leave the room. The curtain then reopened and the spiritual advisor was brought back in, which witnesses read as a second attempt.

8:51 Pike began snoring loudly. Her lip quivered. She made some choking sounds, grunted, and lifted her head. About 7.56, her body lifted off the gurney in a V, like a V. She sat straight up, heads and legs both rising. The rock was placed a second time in front of the viewing audience. She was still breathing, snoring, and flexing her head and neck. and the curtain was closed for a last time, but this time it didn't open back up. Witnesses asked to see into the chamber that that was refused, and they could hear snoring plus doors opening and closing.

9:32 About 8 26 p.m. witnesses were told the second dose had been given, and at 8 53 a microphone was cut from the chamber, and the warden ordered the media out. Pike was still snoring. Now Her lawyer said both syringes had been administered. She still had a heartbeat and audibly snoring. They filed emergency motions immediately in federal court and in the Tennessee Supreme Court. for a stay and for life-saving measures. Around 9.15 p.m. during a media press conference, an ambulance and fire truck arrived, followed by two Department of Correction vans.

10:13 Emergency vehicles interrupted the witnesses mid-statement, and after 11 p.m., the Tennessee Department of Corrections said it followed every step of the state's lawful execution protocol, that the chemical had been consistently effective, and that the protocol does not allow for additional procedures beyond what was carried out that evening. And then at that point, Pike was taken off to an off-site medical facility. Now, People have asked, why did the drug fail? And it's important to mention, Tennessee uses what's known as a one-drug protocol. It's pentobarbital, and this written protocol calls for 250 milliliter syringes of this solution, and it's reported in coverage as a five-gram total dose, if you want to look at it that way. And a backup set exists if the first person is not dead by the first set. It does not say what to do if the person is alive after the second set.

11:24 So Pike's lawyers said the concerns they had raised in advance came true. She had difficult vein access, blown veins, and a degraded, and the pinto barbitual was possibly degraded. There was no emergency medical care on site, and the protocol was kept largely secret. Now, they also mentioned she has a clotting disorder, and her team had argued that those veins she had were hard to access and very small. So it has created quite a mess. The governor responded, and he's going to have a comprehensive third-party review determine exactly what occurred at this. So obviously, another delay, right?

12:12 Mm-hmm. And so there you have it concerning to say the least shocking. Yeah, I'd say shocking. I don't find it too. Okay. So there's lots of protocols that are in place for execution. So like, I know like Louisiana, we start a second line just in case the first line fails. You think about the lines failing or not clearing where you can't get the drug in. But the, the thing here is that the dose that's given in and of itself is is three times the dose that would be needed to euthanize somebody. So while I am in no way a scientist and I don't claim to be in any way, shape or form, the idea that even if the drug's potency had somewhat, you know, been lost over time because of the storage of the drug, you'd still think three times the lethal dose was still lethal.

13:06 Well, it's not three times. It's a lethal dose. No, but the lethal dose is three times the amount that would be lethal... To an average person. Well, I mean, I have because like in Louisiana, we did the three drug system. So the first drug would be this one to kind of knock you out, to knock you out. Then the second one is a muscle relaxant. And then the third one induces a heart attack. Well, they're going with this three. And all of those drugs in and of themselves are enough to kill somebody. And I think that's part of what the issue should be looked at here is that. They want to go with this one drug system. So if one drug fails and then the backup you have is going to be the same issue, potency, et cetera, then if you had the three drug system in place, then you know what I'm saying? What are the chances of all three of your drugs that are all in and of themselves enough to be lethal failing?

13:57 And so I don't quite... I know that the prison did what they are supposed to do by protocol. The drug failure is... The main, in my opinion, is the main issue here, not whether the prison messed it up, but. You know, how how are we going to determine the potency? Because they're supposed to look at the drug, too, and someone of medical, you know, medical expertise would look at it in the color and the clarity and all these things to determine if. But the potency wasn't the question. The potency would have killed you. It would have killed me. It would have killed 99 out of 100 people. I know. The reason it didn't kill her was she had a pre-existing condition.

14:37 Yeah, but I'm not buying that either because the drug. It's a fact. It's a medical fact. I'm not saying her condition, but I'm saying the drug's reaction to that because all of the drug, like 15% of the drug within the first 30 seconds is up into the brain. And then the rest of it's being, I don't know if the word is metabolized or not. Apparently not, she lived. Yeah, but there's still, this is still such a mega dose that they are giving. This has got to be a potency issue, not a blood clotting issue. It's a potency issue because this is enough drug to kill, I mean, the dose of this is enough to kill three times over. And there's no blood clotting, Your blood clotting.

15:25 I mean, Kelly, I'm not a doctor and neither are you. And this is a known issue with finding veins. If you blow someone's vein, it doesn't all go in their blood system. It just kind of goes in their body at that point. It's in the tissue. I mean. They're saying that they didn't inject. They didn't have a good vein there. Well, then it's not the clotting. So the majority of the drug did not go. Okay. Well, what I'm saying is you've got to pick. I'm not a doctor. I don't know. I know. So I'm not going to state something that's a. Fact that I don't know. What I'm trying to get at is enough was in her system. Nurses out there tell us. Well, what I'm going to get at is this. The snoring is a very common, whenever someone is executed, the snoring portion is very common. People who have witnessed many executions will tell you that there's that snoring sound, kind of like a balloon is deflating. and then maybe a little bit of jerking here and there, and then the person passes on. So it sounds like she was at the snoring phase, which tells me that she was not aware because she's under enough to be under. That's why I'm thinking it's a potency issue because it was enough to not kill her, but it did knock her out.

16:35 I think it's a combination of the two. I think it's a little bit to do with her affliction, and it's a little bit to do with You know, the potency. But you do it twice, it's not a potency issue. How long have they had that drug? I don't know. Well, that's what I'm telling you. But, I mean, you can have it 50 years, and if you do it twice, it's not going to be weak enough not to kill you. I don't know. Unless you have some other issues going on, which she did. Yeah, I still don't buy this. And they knew that. I think that that was grass-mint straws when they threw out the clotting issue. What makes you think that? Because I'm not buying that a blood clotting issue. Is the argument that the blood clotting issue is caused by a barbiturate? No. Then it shouldn't matter.

17:22 She has a blood clotting issue, but the blood clotting issue is because her veins are too small. They're saying that basically she blew her vein out. Do you know what that means? Yes. I've had it done. Okay. And it burns like a motherfucker. Yes, it does. Yes, it does. And there, so basically the, They're saying the drug did not get in her vein. It got in her system. I guess that's what they're arguing. There's a difference. That's exactly what they're saying. But why not put the line in the neck where it's closer to the brain? I know, but these are the things I would be considering. Your neck veins are certainly not going to be big enough to take that needle. These are 20-gauge needles. Then push it slower. I mean, shit, there's medical responses to all of this. I mean, drug addicts probably got to be a drug addicts. Drug addicts have poor veins because they have collapsed and all that kind of stuff.

18:15 But we put plenty of drug addicts that were full blown addicts to death all the time, you know, and they've got a multitude of issues, too. I mean, I just what happened here when they say botched execution. I don't think it was botched. I think that it was an ineffective execution. That's what I think. I think if they can prove that the preexisting condition is a major contributor to this, I know you don't believe it. I don't, I don't know enough. I'm not a nurse, so I don't know enough to believe it. I don't just talk out of my ass. I'm not talking out of my, I'm not. Saying you do, but I'm, but I don't think you have the medical expertise to make that call. Um, I think that, uh.

18:56 It says, historically, thiopental has been one of the most commonly used and studied drugs for the induction of coma. So if it's the most commonly used one, then it sounds like that's why it was a state-sanctioned lethal drug. Because it doesn't take much, and it's extremely effective. So it doesn't—if it was, you know— It's the primary sedative in lethal injections for a reason. And I would say, I mean, it's not like they didn't look through all of this when deciding on capital punishment and say, what's the most commonly used effective drug. But if you have small veins and you have a history of your veins blown out.

19:38 I mean, blood clotting, either way. I just don't buy that. I think that that was grasping at straws because they didn't even bring that up in her initial um argument okay you know you know i'm just we're talking it out okay. All right you should have a different opinion i think it's certainly possible but i'm not a nurse so nurses out there. Speak up yeah speak up let us know i mean that's the thing is none of us are majority of us are not experts but i like to be at least somewhat sound in where i'm And, you know, medical procedures and advancements today, you would think that they could do more than just put a damn tap of vein in your arm. What if you don't have arms? What if you were a killer with no arms? Then what are you going to do?

20:26 Legs, back of your legs. That's what I'm saying. I mean, it doesn't, they could have gone other places. I'm not debating that. And I don't think, I think the defense isn't debating that. I think that's the defense point. Well, you know, the argument about the Eighth Amendment, you know, overall is that is is lethal injection, cruel, cruel and unusual punishment. And the arguments, no, but now they're getting down into the nitty gritty. But I did Google just now. And this is just a quick Google search. You know, does blood clotting disorder stop barbiturates from going into your system? And it says a blood clotting disorder does not directly stop a barbiturate from biologically working inside the brain. Their function is to depress the central nervous system. So barbiturates interact heavily with blood clotting medications and hypercoagulation disorders can cause massive physical delivery failures during intravenous administration. But the.

21:29 That's the problem. Patient... So did she have thrombocytosis? Yes. Is that the actual one? It's the actual diagnosis. So it says, whenever the healthcare providers attempt to place a central line or an IV to administer this, like the penobardipital or the thiopental, the underlying clotting disorder can cause the IV lines to immediately clog or the veins to blow or collapse. So if the drug is leaking around, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But barbiturates... Hang on. Barbiturates are potent hepatic enzyme inducers. Well, that's not what we're looking at. So it's basically saying they can give them like a blood thinner prior to before pushing the drug.

22:16 Which wasn't done. Well, then that should have been done. I mean, that's an easy fix. I think that's the whole defense point. Well, then why didn't they bring that up before? They're just trying to stop the execution. Why didn't they say, if their argument is humaneness and that it may not work, well, then that's what they're going to do in an emergency room. They were right. It didn't work. But it didn't work because of the condition that she had. Just what we've been talking about. But if the protocol reads... Well, I know, but what I'm saying is if the protocol reads step A, step B, step C, step D, then they followed the protocol and. But they knew she had the condition, Kelly. I know, but if the protocol for— So you just.

22:56 Figured out that quick exactly that that could be a major issue. Correct. So what I'm saying, though, is if the protocol, as it's listed, for how to do the lethal injection, because there is a protocol, if it says no other drug shall be administered and then they follow that to a T, then they're not in the wrong is what I'm trying to tell you. No, I'm not— Because they followed it to a T. So the argument here is— Should there be a change in the protocol? I'm sure there will be. Whatever. Or at least a change in what you can do. They knew she had this condition and nobody said, you know, this may not work. I mean, that's a problem.

23:42 It's a problem. Yeah. But they had 30-something years to address this. On both sides. Yeah, no, I mean, yeah, they do. But, you know, they've got doctors on hand. I'm having a really, really hard time believing that all of this was not reviewed at some level. We won't know that right now. I mean, it may have been. And somebody gave him the wrong advice and said, oh, yeah, it'll work. I mean, the person, the puddin', it didn't work. She has that condition. That condition can complicate lethal injections.

24:23 My question, though, is if it's absorbed into the muscles, too, and again, I'm not a doctor, but if it's absorbed into the muscle and the brain, then let's just say six times the lethal dose. What do you mean it ain't in the brain? It goes in the heart. No, like when the actual drug, I was on the lethal injection site. I was reading about how the drug interacts. It's talking about absorbing and where it's absorbed mainly and all that. So. it was saying like the potency at what level and what phase and all those things. It was saying that, I mean, even if all of it didn't get through, because then they say it was so many, so much time in before she said it's burning. Right.

25:03 So some of it had to get through. And so my argument. Here is probably some of it. So did the vein, if the vein blew immediately or within the first 10 seconds, then I would say, yeah, I think that was a factor here, but what I'm, or a major factor here, but the drugs got through. It started burning. She got to the phase of being knocked out, and then they did it twice. That's got to be a potency issue on some level. It has to be. You don't think? I think that it's a contributing factor, but I think that even if the drug is not necessarily potent enough for whatever reason, I think two of them would have done it.

25:44 Me too. I mean, it's at least 50% of its potency. So if you do it twice, you would think. But her veins were blowing. So it's not going to have the same reaction. That drug is designed to deliver through the blood system. Right. I wonder if they tried to push it through the same arm, the second dose. Oh, sure. Well, I wouldn't. I would have had an IV in one in each arm. Oh. That's not how they do it, I guess. I don't know. Again, I'm not medically inclined to say that. I know. We're not doctors. We're not claiming to be. We are just discussing what the hell happened here, and everyone's asking the same question, and we're just trying to come to the conclusion of what could have happened before they do the entire investigation. Now, I'll tell you this.

26:35 She's probably brain damaged for sure. Okay. Wouldn't you agree? I would think. I would think, but I thought she was communicating after that. What? Really? She was saying a lot of things. She said that her arms felt like they were. No, no, no. And then later she said one spot is really throbbing. Yeah, but that was before... I'm saying once they escorted all the witnesses out and they took her to the hospital. Oh, the second time when she was snoring? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I would think she's not in good shape. I'm thinking she's in a coma or something. I have a hard time believing that she's going to... What bothers me about, I guess, let me go here. What bothers me about this is now it's trying to make her into a victim. And that bothers me. On an emotional level, that bothers me. We told you how this was going to happen. She's been victimized. She's been brutalized. And that's where I go, well, you know, we didn't try to be brutal. You tried to follow the rules and what was going to happen here. And if she goes down in history as someone who was victimized by the state, that's not acceptable to me.

27:38 Right. Is that hypocritical, you think, what I'm saying? No. Look. We're just covering facts here. Yeah. I mean, it's the first time it's a precedent case. I mean, what do we do from here? I know they're going to have to go back to the drawing board, but I know some people are wondering, well, what happens now? So a botched execution is not going to erase her death sentence. And the current Supreme Court law is not going to stop the state from trying to do it again. So what it's going to do, though, is it's going to open up the opportunity for a narrower fight between over the method and the protocol and whether the next attempt would be cruel and unusual punishment. And so that's kind of how they're framing this up. Now, surviving the procedure, like we said, is also not going to necessarily directly commute the sentence to life. And so I'm going to read here something that we pulled before we got on air.

28:32 But Tennessee law, like the law in other death penalty states, treats the method as the means of carrying out a judgment, not the judgment itself. So it's the method, not the judgment. So if lethal injection is later held unconstitutional or certifiably infeasible, the death sentence remains and the state looks to whatever backup the statute allows. For Pike, whose crime was in 1995, Tennessee still lists electrocution as an elective alternative for pre-1999 cases. And that was one thing that came to my attention, too, because when she is sentenced, they say, you know, the electric current will go through your body until you are dead. And so if she was so worried about the lethal injection, I mean, the electric chair was still on the table.

29:13 Why weren't they fighting to just give her the chair? If it was truly about her comfort and about not being whatever, why didn't they argue that? I mean, I know they don't want her to die, but if that was truly just about this being, you know, the, the, the root cause, Oh, well, her blood clotting factor is a problem. Okay. Then go to the alternative method. Well, they're saying that now. You know, I don't know if they brought that up before, but they're saying the reason this didn't work is because she had that condition. They came out and said this immediately after it didn't work, which makes me think they knew. They did. That was their appeal. So you could ask that same question to the state.

29:54 I mean, this is a big freaking problem on the state's part, too. They why didn't they? Nobody said, you know what? Lethal injection may not work on this chick. Nobody said that from the state level. It's not all up to her attorneys to bring it up. The state has some. Yeah, they've got due diligence. Responsibility here. I agree as well, because we don't do shit like that. We don't torture people. I agree. I agree. But I'm just saying. If the obviously they're just trying to spare her life. Obviously, that's what they're trying to do with that appeal, because they brought this up before her execution. Then the alternative is still on the books of that. And she was sentenced to electrocution and it's still on the books. I'm just saying, if you want to look at it black and white, like on paper, it's still there.

30:38 Right. So you could you could use that. And maybe that's something to look at next time around. Maybe prisoner choice, we can try this. Why wasn't it looked at the first time around? I don't know. I'm curious if they'll be like, well, maybe we'll do prisoner's choice here. You can either have the electric chair or you can try this with your blood clotting. I don't think they're going to do lethal injection with her again. I don't see that. I don't think she's going to come out of this for that to even be a– I think she's about to be a vegetable and on the state's dime and have to take care of her. I don't understand why they did DNR-type stuff here. I mean, why they had a resuscitation attempt on this either. I don't understand that. They didn't. They brought her to the hospital. Well, they brought her to the hospital. You have to, Kelly. You can't. You just have to. It's kind of like giving people heart monitors and stuff when they're in prison that are sentenced to death.

31:22 I get that. They have to die a specific way. I get that. But what I'm saying is you've been sentenced to death. Then bring her to the hospital and let her lay on the gurney. And then if she looks like she's suffering, then give her some more in the hospital. Do something. The doctors are there for a reason. But now they're... keeping her alive and attempting to save her life, and I don't get that. I really don't. Well, I can actually answer that question. All right, go for it. Because the Supreme Court law in Tennessee states that you can only administer a lethal dose of that kind of drug twice. Yeah, but the state, not medical intervention. So, I'm just saying. A medical person doesn't have the authority to kill her.

32:04 I'm just saying if it was in the protocol. No, if it was in the protocol. I'm talking about, I don't understand why you would try to. Save her life. Because you can only do it twice. I know, I'm talking about rewriting the damn law. That if it's not working in the setting at the facility, I don't think we should then take you to the hospital and try to save you. I think that's dumb. I think it's counterintuitive here. What are we going to do? Bring her back just to do it again? That's cruel and unusual in my opinion. They look at it as and I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but they look at it as she was made to suffer. And she was probably, I mean, I would imagine she was suffering during that point. I don't, she was snoring. Stabilizing her. Well, Kelly. Okay.

32:45 I really don't. That's fine. That's your opinion. That's my opinion, Jim. How many times have you been under with that? Never. So we don't, I don't know. What did they give you whenever you, uh, well, when you get wisdom teeth taken out, what did they give you? Uh, I'd be curious to know. All right. So then comes up the question of, OK, well, then what about double jeopardy? Because, you know, you can't they've already tried to execute or it didn't work. So we can't go do that again. Well. There's a case in the Willie Francis case, which is in Louisiana. Jim covered this one on on Bloody Angola, but he was 17 and he survived the electric chair, not because he withstood the electricity, but because of a malfunction in the chair. So the courts then held on a five to four ruling that the second attempt. was neither double jeopardy nor cruel and unusual punishment. Because the argument was basically, well, we put him to death. He didn't die. What do we do? We let him walk or do we do it again? Or would that be the double jeopardy? And so Justice Reed's opinion treated the failure as an accident in carrying out one sentence, not a second punishment. When a quote unquote accident with no suggestions of malevolence prevents the consummation of a sentence due to process, it does not stop the state from finishing it.

34:03 And you know what? What I just said about in the hospital, finishing it, that's kind of what that lends itself to. But it's in a more clinical setting with more supervision, with more eyes and more things. So that's still the baseline. A failed lethal injection is not legally the same as an acquittal or a completed sentence. Pike's lawyers can argue the facts are worse than Frances because the drugs were actually injected and she remained conscious and This is an apparent pain. The burning, I guess. People feel that in regular procedures. I have a blown vein in the last surgery I had. Do I have a constitutional argument to say that I was tortured by my doctor? No.

34:45 It just happened. It was an accident. They blew a vein in my left hand. They restuck my right hand. They blew the vein in my right hand. Then they got another one. And then I finally went out. But I was half drunk with the medicine. before they got me out. So the drugs were injected. She was in apparent pain, this says. The curtain was closed and then the protocol had no next step. But they're arguing against a precedent that's never been overruled. So one of the justices' concurrence is the crack in that wall. He agreed that the first failure was accidental and unforeseeable, but then wrote that repeated unsuccessful attempts could become a different constitutional problem. One botched execution is generally not enough, but a pattern can be. So I would say that they needed a different drug as the backup. That's why the three-drug system sounds better than the one drug. But the Eighth Amendment test is hard to win because the court has never struck down a state's chosen execution procedure under the Eighth Amendment.

35:45 And to win, the prisoner has to show two things. that number one, the method presents a substantial risk of severe pain, sure or very likely is the quote, to cause serious illness and needless suffering and an objectively intolerable risk. So there is a feasible, readily implemented alternative that would significantly reduce that risk, which the state has refused without a legitimate penological reason. So that brings up what we're talking about here that the state did have another method, but you couldn't inject her and it halfway work and then go electrocute her. Right. I mean, there has to be a similarly timeframe. Yeah.

36:26 Before you move on to another method like that. I mean, you can't do it the same night. Right. But that being said, if she's incapacitated, I don't know how they'd electrocute her if she's incapacitated to the point that. And that sounds brutal to do both. What do you do, Kelly? I know that's what we're going to have to figure out here, but I think a different drug would have been the answer here. I think the three-drug protocol, maybe. Her condition is so unique. I mean, if it was indeed primarily her condition that caused this, three drugs wouldn't have made a difference. Did she have a doctor's diagnosis or did they just say that?

37:06 No, she has a legit diagnosis from what I read. Okay. That would be another thing, too. Was it a legit diagnosis? concern um or not so a completed failure is useful uh useful evidence before september 30th pike's team was predicting difficult veins blown veins degraded penobarbital and no medical rescue afterward they can point to what witnesses saw the arm pain she described as about to burst and continued consciousness, snoring after both syringes, body movement, and a closed curtain. I don't agree with the body movement because people that have had successful executions still move. They snore, they jerk a little bit, they'll gasp, and then they die.

37:49 So that is stronger than a risk prediction. It still has to clear the alternative method requirement. The courts have been reluctant to treat isolated malfunctions as proof the method itself is unconstitutional. And I'd agree with that because we have so many Successful executions, you know, with this drug used. Tennessee called off Tony, I think this is Caruthers. I haven't looked it up, but Tony Caruthers' execution, which is in May of 26, because staff could not find a vein. Two failures in five months is the kind of record lawyers use to argue that risk was no longer accidental. But I would say, what are the probability of not having good veins if you have a criminal... You know, there's lots of things to look at here. If you have a large criminal, like when I was doing assessments on inmates when I worked in prison and you asked, do you have drug use? An exorbitant amount of them said yes. So if we're going to argue that their veins are such a large issue, then lethal injection is going to have to be, I mean, if you wanted to be just, you know, one way or the other.

38:54 If we're going to say that your veins are the end-all, be-all... You just. Go to a different method. I don't know why the hypoxia method is not used everywhere. Some people say that that's too painful or whatever. But, I mean, you don't have to worry about veins then. Yeah. A bullet's cheap, too. I know that's ugly, but it's effective. Look at all the murder victims around the world. Bullets work. So... Then again, it brings up, you know, is that brutal or not? You know? So there's an argument both ways here, basically. If the backup didn't work, everyone's saying these were two majorly deadly doses that were given to this woman, and then that didn't work, no one could have predicted that this would be the case. They can say they predicted blood clotting problems.

39:45 They could argue that. But for two people, majorly deadly lethal doses to be given and that not work, I would say arguably no one predicted that and that's proof because of the protocol. If the first one didn't work, push the second one. So the state will say it stopped where the law told it to stop. Pike's lawyers will say that if a method can leave someone alive in pain and with a heartbeat, and then there's no lawful next step, that's not a constitutional method of, of execution. And they've already sought the orders for life-saving care and to block another attempt. So whether the current warrant is spent and whether a new warrant is required, that's going to be litigated under the Tennessee procedure as well as the federal constitution.

40:25 Yeah. And there's, there's going to be a lot come out of this. They're going to check and there will be a report on whether the, drugs were weaker than they should have been for some reason, the age of them, you know, they sort of things. And they're going to run toxicology on her too. I'm certain to see what. They're going to, they're going to know exactly what happened. They'll be, they'll be able to figure out exactly what happened and they'll come out with that, you know, and they'll release it. And so we'll have more answers at that point. It's just hard to say whether it was just the veins and, and you know, then there'll be the question of what, If they knew about that ahead of time, why didn't they look into something else at that point?

41:07 Yeah, because it seems like there's an easy fix. If you were just a regular citizen, you would have just given the preemptive blood thinner to make sure that it didn't clot. Yeah. Well, I don't think you're focusing on that clotting. It's not just the clotting. It's the blowing out of the veins. Well, I would think it blew out because of the clot. That's why I'm saying that. Like if the vein got backed up with the blood. You could also miss the vein there. Completely. If your veins are too small, you can kind of get it half in. That's why you should have to have a back of line. Your veins could roll. Yeah. There could have been all kinds of reasons. So I'm not apt to think the clotting was the issue necessarily here. It sounds to me like the veins were just small and they were literally blowing the vein.

41:50 I mean, it could be. None of us know. So I will be interested. I feel like, though, the unfortunate part is it's going to take a long time probably to get these answers. Um, I think they will know obviously, but I think to be released to us is going to take a long time because they've got to do an incident action plan here and review this and see how it went down. But easy things here would have been, in my opinion, backup plan, which would have been the secondary drug push, maybe a secondary line. I don't even know if they, I've always heard there's two lines and one in each arm. Um, I've never witnessed an execution, um, in the room. So I can't, but I know I've watched practice when they practice beforehand before they do it.

42:33 And it was two lines. So this might be a totality of circumstance that a lot of things went wrong too. It could be weakened drugs. So like what I'm saying is the probability of this happening again is very low. This is one time out of, you know, however many executions we've had to date. Well, I mean, they've had this happen before. Yeah. But like the other guy, the other guy in Tennessee, you're saying, yeah, the other, the other guy, they couldn't get the vein. So they called it off. So it sounds like they got the vein or they thought they did. Yeah. Or they thought that however you want to look at it.

43:13 Um, well, it'd be interesting to see what follows up with this, what her condition is currently. Um, Yeah, nothing's been released at the point that we are recording this. Nothing. She's still in the hospital at the time that. We're recording this. Right. So let us know your thoughts, guys. We'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear your opinions. You can tell us how horrible we are. Them nurses are going to tear KJ up. That's fine. I can't wait. That's fine. I'm here for it. Put it in the comments. Put it in. The comments, nurses. I know y'all are like, what? What is this chick talking about? Hey, go for it. That's fine. I mean, I just know they blew veins in both of my hands. It hurt like an MF-er. I was half drunk because they were using propofol. And then they finally got it after they stuck me a third time. And I don't think I had an argument at that point for cruel and unusual punishment. I think it just was what it was.

44:03 I don't know. I mean, someone hurt me. I've had a vein blown out before. Did they already push the drug, though, and you're half drunk? No, they couldn't even get my vein and they were killing me. And I almost got in a fight with it. It was a male nurse, incidentally, a male nurse. And me and him, I almost come to blows. And I told him, you stick me one more time and it's going to be on with me and you. And this other nurse comes over there and she was able to do it in two seconds. And I'm like, this guy kept trying. He stuck me like six times in the same place. What are you doing? He said, your vein keeps rolling. I'm like, well, get somebody else. Are you training right now? What are you doing? Because it felt like someone was cutting my arm off. It was that bad.

44:46 Well, I'll tell you. Some of the drug got in, and then the rest went into the muscle. It burned really, really bad. It hurt. They did it again in the other hand. I genuinely was intoxicated at that point. They can't stop. I mean, they could have, I guess, but like— In terms of that being what happened here in the execution, I mean, shit, you got to go forward with it. I mean, some of the drugs are already in there. You can't stop giving a deadly drug. And they did. They did it a second time. And they still botched it. Or whatever happened. Whatever happened. Yeah. I think, honestly, they said it was five milligrams per. So I think what happened was they stuck her the first time. And, you know, it just blew her vein out. And she only got like a milligram of the five.

45:27 The five is the lethal dose. You get three, it's not going to kill you. So then they stuck her the second time and the same thing happened. And she only got another gram and the rest did not go in her vein. And I think that's probably what happened. That's, you know, just reading what I'm reading. Yeah. So thank you for tuning in. And the answer is we don't know what the hell happened. Yeah. We have. We'll find out. We're trying to figure it out. But if you know, let us know. If you were there, we'd like to hear from you. That was weird. Well, no, people are speaking out. I mean, shit. All right. Until next time, I'm Jim Chapman. And I'm Kelly Jennings.