The Roadless Rule Is Under Threat: What It Means for North Carolina with Carla Fox, The Conservation Alliance

Why The Clock Is Ticking

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're listening to Exploration Local, a podcast designed to share stories about the people who shape the places we explore, the brands and ideas that get us out there, and the experiences that fuel a spirit of adventure. I'm Mike Andris, host of Exploration Local, and I believe there's always something new to discover and new stories to be told, whether it's around the corner or miles from home. I encourage you to wander far, but explore local. Let's go. If you hike, mountain bike, hunt, fish, climb, paddle, or just simply spend time in the Piscah and Anahela National Forest, there's something happening right now that could affect some of the places you know and love. But time is running out. The roadless rule has been in place since 2001, protecting millions of acres of national forest land from road construction and certain types of development. But that rule is now under threat. And this isn't just a Western North Carolina story. Roadless areas stretch across the country, including here in North Carolina, from the mountains of Pisgah and Anahala to the Croatan National Forest on the coast. The current public comment period ends October 6th. So rather than try to tell you what to think about all of this, I wanted to understand what's actually happening and what it could actually mean for the places we explore. I met Carla Fox at the Outdoor Media Summit this past week. She's with the Conservation Alliance, and we immediately connected on this issue. So I wanted to have her on, real quickly, to talk through the Roadless Rule, why it was created, what the Forest Service is proposing now, and what happens next. I really can't wait to dive into this with you. Time is of the essence. Let's get into it.

Roadless Rule Basics Explained

SPEAKER_00 1:36

So today I am thrilled to have Carla Fox, the membership director for the Conservation Alliance, to help us understand the Roadless Rule, why it matters, and what happens next. Let's start with the basics. So for someone who's never heard the term roadless rule, what exactly is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Great question. Let's start at the beginning. So the roadless rule was implemented in 2001. And for the last 25 years, it has prevented road building and road construction and then all the development and activities that depend on roads. That means logging, other industrial development and extraction, from the 58 million acres of inventoried roadless areas. And what does that mean? Inventoried roadless areas are big sections of our U.S. national forests that are free from development. They're large expanses of places with no roads in them currently. And the roadless rule is there to keep them that way.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

So when people do hear roadless, they might be thinking about like wilderness. Are they actually the same thing?

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Great question. No, they are not. Roadless areas are usually actually within um larger national parks or right next to wilderness areas. But the difference is that roadless areas you can do the management is a little bit different. So roadless areas include some of our big national, I mean our old growth forest landscapes. They allow you can do all types of recreation in roadless areas. So you can hike, backpack, camp, fish, and you can even do some motorized recreation.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

So it was such a joy to meet you this week at the outdoor media summit. And I know that we were just kind of throwing this together. I wouldn't say throwing it together. We're having this conversation, sort of kind of late in the game. The the comment period for this is opened until October the 6th. But I'm wondering if you can kind of carry us back just a little bit of like what got us here, and then what does our timeline look like from now until October 6th?

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Yes, I

The Repeal Proposal And Timeline

SPEAKER_01 4:00

would say we are in the last sprint of a critical time for the roadless rule. What happened is in June 2025, so just over a year ago, the U.S. Department of Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins announced the USDA's intent to roll back the roadless rule. And coming out of that announcement, there was a 21-day scoping period in August of 2025. And that allows public comments from the American people. And people definitely shared their voices. There was 625,000 comments submitted in that 21-day period. The vast majority of that opposing any changes or rollback of the roll this rule. And that included significant tribal opposition. So that was last year. And then the next step in that process from the USDA is that just a month ago, or just over a month ago, in August 2026, the U.S. Forest Service, which is housed under the U.S. Department of Agriculture, released their draft environmental impact statement, or DEIS. And this is their formal proposal to repeal the roadless rule. And in that DEIS, they share three potential paths. One is keeping it as is, one is fully repealing the rule. And a third is a different option. It's a little convoluted, but essentially it um removes a majority of the protections of the role. It's still incredibly impactful to over 30 million acres of U.S. forest lands currently protected. So they released this DEIS and that opened another public comment period. And so there was an original deadline, but before that came, they extended it to October 6th.

The Fastest Way To Comment

SPEAKER_01 6:08

So right now is when anyone, any individual, so if you're a company, it's your employees, it's your customers, if you're an individual, it's your friends, your family, anybody, any individual can submit a comment sharing your feedback or your opinion about what the U.S. Forest Service should do about the real list rule.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

So knowing that we just have a few days until the end of that comment period, what would be the best way and the best place to move people to or push them towards signing or at least being able to kind of submit their comments?

SPEAKER_01 6:47

That's a great question. So the Conservation Alliance, along with other organizations, so we are not the only one. Thankfully, there's a huge coalition working on this, but for the Conservation Alliance in our effort, we do have a really easy form. You can fill out on our website that I'll provide you the link for. That all you have to do is add your information of your name and location. And we have pre-populated a very well thought out comment that you can keep as is and just press submit after you put in your information and it takes two seconds. Um, and we will submit that individual comment on your behalf to the US Forest Service. Or you have the option to actually add your own personal touch to that uh letter. So you can you can keep the template or you can customize it to put in your own words, either way. But it should take you, I don't know, two minutes max to submit that and then hopefully share that link uh with some others.

What North Carolina Could Lose

SPEAKER_00 7:52

So let's sort of humanize this. Sometimes when we think about politics or we think about policy, there are kind of things that are kind of out there. Like they don't necessarily sometimes maybe affect me. And but this kind of situation that we're dealing with right now, for those of us that live in western North Carolina and that specifically recreate in the Nanta Hale and Pisca National Forests, we're included in this. Our forests, our local forests are included in the uh this roadless rule. And I'd love to kind of make that personal to us. And I'd love to kind of bring it home. Like, what does that really mean for us here in Western North Carolina?

SPEAKER_01 8:31

100% you are impacted. So this is, you mentioned some of these places. Um, this is places where people go on the weekends, their regular hiking spots or in their backyard where they walk their dog. So, so there is definitely a direct impact here. To dive into that a little bit deeper, specifically for North Carolina. Um, the rule this rule protects 172,000 acres of North Carolina's public lands, including 150,000 acres of mountains and streams in the Nandahala and Piscah National Forest, like you said. But it also includes, to the east, 20,000 acres in the coastal Crowatin National Forest that has pine savannas and wetlands. The ecosystems and the places that people like us get to enjoy is really vast with this. And so that that's that's hundreds of thousands of acres in North Carolina, where folks are hiking, there's there's climbing areas, um, backpacking, um, all of that happens in these areas that could be, if this rollback happens, those places could be not the way they are permanently. The the USDA has stated in their own proposal that this would fulfill uh the Trump administration's executive order for timber production. So expect those places to be logged and roads built in them and them to be essentially unrecognizable to what they are today.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

I'm glad you mentioned the piece about CroTan because honestly, I did not realize that it was all that far east as well. And so I'm wondering, is there a map or someplace that you could point us and listeners to that we could kind of visually see what those specific areas are? Of course, we just named them, but didn't even kind of across the US, so we can kind of understand the really the scope of what this could impact.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yes, I have an amazing map for you that can that shows you the exact locations that would be impacted by this because um North Carolina is unique of that 172,000 acres that are currently inventoried roadless areas. There is um a small percentage that is already protected by congressional designation that overlaps or supersedes the roadless rule. But 84% of all roadless areas in North Carolina would be impacted by this rule. So this map does a great job of not just showing all the roadless areas, but it breaks down the areas that would lose protection if the roadless rule is repealed, as well as the areas that would remain protected because of this other congressional designation. And then it also shows you to get back to your question of where these places are, um, it shows you the surrounding national forest lands that aren't roadless areas, but would be directly next to these locations.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

We'll put these links in the show notes so people have some pretty easy access to it. One thing you just mentioned, I'm sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Oh, I was just gonna say the other thing I didn't mention, you'll see this on the map, is that the Appalachian Trail, which I know is so important to communities, to visitors, to businesses that support activities for through hikers, just to the identity of folks in the region, the Appalachian Trail goes through some of these roadless areas that would lose protection if the roadless rule is repealed. And I think that's incredibly important because that is both local impact and I would say national impact, because we know through hiking is such a big community, such a big driver of the outdoor economy. And that trail goes through these roadless areas. And you can see exactly on the map where that happens.

Timber And Other Extraction Risks

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Now, somebody may be thinking, all right, I hear timber. So we know that the administration, the Trump administration wants to roll this back for timber use. But what are some of the other, if there are any other reasons that the administration is looking to roll back the roadless rule?

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Yeah, great question. The administration and potentially some other communities out there are also saying that this rule, repealing this rule, would improve local decision making and control over these areas or management of these areas. We believe that is a completely false narrative because the the roadless rule, the way that it is set up, it's known for being flexible and allowing for local management while still providing meaningful protection for the national forests. There's already a lot of activities, meaningful management activities happening in roadless areas. So the only change is to allow for timber production and other development if this rule would be repealed. Um, so we truly believe that this, especially because they stated it themselves, the goal for this would be timber production.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

I've also I feel like I've read someplace that even extractive measures like minerals and things like that is am I right to say that or did I read that right somewhere?

SPEAKER_01 14:05

You are right. So because roads are required for development outside of logging. So whether it's extractive development and other industrial development. So we we know that logging would be a big one because these are old growth forests and we know that that timber is very valuable. But the the repealing the roadless rule would allow other extraction and industrial development beyond logging as well.

Clean Water And Wildlife Impacts

SPEAKER_00 14:30

So we've talked about the Appalachian Trail and obviously uh hiking through hikers that's important, uh, probably rock climbing, but water's involved in this too. There's a lot of waterways within these viewsheds, watersheds in these in these national forests. So I imagine clean drinking water is something that could be significantly impacted if this is pulled out.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Yes. So this is not just a recreation, an outdoor economy issue. This is a simple like human health and human need issue because of the intact landscapes that rural those areas protect. They are vital sources of clean water, clean fresh water. And yes, that provides for whitewater rafting and incredible fishing, but it also supports drinking water for communities across the country. Major U.S. cities like Los Angeles, Portland, Denver, and Atlanta rely on roadless areas for a significant portion of the water supply for their communities. And we know that especially places out west are experiencing extreme droughts, there's already issues with water supply. This wouldn't would would certainly make it worse.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

And what about wildlife and habitat? Because that's a whole nother part of these live and breathing organisms in these areas. If these changes happen and roads are developed, what what will happen to them in their own ecosystems?

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Yeah, so what one thing we know, it's been well documented, is that wildlife depends on connectivity because they they don't live within the boundaries that we draw on maps. Um, so connected uh landscapes that and watersheds that they're able to move around to get the resources they need to survive are critical. And so if roads and other development are added into these places that currently are completely undeveloped, they're critical habitats for so many species. I can actually provide you with another report that specifically highlights different habitats within the roadless areas and the species that depend on them, including some at-risk species.

What Matters After Comments Close

SPEAKER_00 16:51

I'd love to just kind of turn the conversation a little bit towards the next couple of days. We have just a few days until October the 6th. However, after that comment period closes, I'd imagine that it's not this type of thing that we just want to shut the book, that chapter's over, move on, wait for the next thing to come our way. I would imagine there's still some things that we need to be paying attention to, ways that we can begin to take um action, you know, even now. What would, if that's true, what would some of those things be, Carla?

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Even beyond this comment period, while we're waiting to hear the final decision uh and the outcome of this time, it's sharing the importance of these places is so important. So we've begun to work with individuals and the companies within our network to share stories about the benefits of these roadless areas. I mean, we talked about the Appalachian Trail, but 9% of the Pacific Crest Trail goes through roadless areas, 420 miles of Continental Divide. Uh, so there's it's across the country. Um, and those trails mean different things to different communities. Um, there's also over 8,000 climbing routes. So talking about the local places you climb or where you first learn to climb, um, the the types of stories and the impacts that these places have on communities, both from like an individual standpoint, but also uh the economy as a whole. Um the the these places are economic drivers because they draw people to gateway communities. Um they those folks are are purchasing gear, um they are relying on the outdoor economy or they're fueling the outdoor economy by visiting these locations. And that's because they are wonderful places to visit. They you are out in pristine nature. So telling those stories is critically important because regardless of what happens, these are public lands, they belong to the American people. And even if in the short term, what whatever happens in this rule repeal, uh there's always opportunities to protect these places if Americans come together and share our voice, because these are American lands and the community has shared their voice before in protecting these places, and we know that we can do them again if we really provide that that motivation, that inspiration, and that common ground. There's such a variety of user groups, as I was saying, that depend on these places from hunting to fishing to camping. And we might not agree on everything, but I think we could all agree that having these untouched landscapes is valuable right now.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

When you think about conservation, it's really easy for us to think about lines on a map. Um, but what do you really wish that people understood about that connection between these landscapes and the communities that that all surround them?

SPEAKER_01 19:56

I I love that question. It everything is connected. So whether you're thinking about this from a human perspective, uh, like we were talking about the outdoor economy, yes, there is potentially an argument from the administration to say that this is for uh increasing timber production. This is good uh for the economy. Well, there's a 1.3 trillion outdoor economy that's sustainable over time. It's it's not dependent on a non-renewable resource or a scarce resource. Uh, that's an old growth forest in a robust area, that is is dependent on these places being intact. So those connections are real, and that the local communities, the small businesses that depend on people visiting these areas is is real. Um and and that's not even including the ecosystem connections. So that that is countless. I mean, uh everybody talks about the butterfly effect, and and I I I I truly personally feel that we as humans don't even understand the the true level of intricacies of of the ecosystem connections. And so we we can often underestimate the implications of doing something that upsets that balance of landscape.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

That is so well said. And I think that it's never so excuse me, evident as when you do spend more time in the outdoors or see new places, and then you see new species of animals and insects and by, you know, flora. It's just it's it's amazing to me that, you know, I I I was recently at a place that's recently been conserved. It's about 7,600 acres of land. And there are things that I have never seen before in my life, like ever. And they only grew right there. in that particular area. And so exponentially look at that in a bigger scope. And there's so much out there that we just don't know. And you know, I I don't know what's in that that I just rambled, but what you just said made it personal for me.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

And that's it, it is personal. So everyone has a different experience of being in these places. And they each each one of these roll this areas and the forests that they include have a have a particular meaning for an individual or a community. That is so unique. And and that's something that is one of the reasons why we have America's public lands. That's what makes America unique.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Love that. So we have the mission ahead of us. We have a few days left. We're going to put links in the show notes for a place for a quick place that someone can go and register their comments. And we understand the work to be done even afterwards in terms of staying involved in conservation, being aware, making your voice be heard. What have we not covered that you would like to for people to know and then when this episode is out you say gosh

Turning Concern Into Civic Action

SPEAKER_00 23:10

I wish we would have covered that.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

That's a great question. So I thank you for asking that um I would just I I would say the most important thing and and just to reiterate since I think we've covered some wonderful faces here that whether it's the roadless rule or something else in the future that individuals have a say and have an impact on how our public lands are managed. And getting engaged starting to get comfortable getting engaged on those issues is so important whether it's becoming used to signing onto a letter or submitting a comment like with the roadless rule or it's getting to know your local legislators your state legislators sharing with them how you feel about issues that impact your state or sometimes your legislators have a say on national issues that you might care about. You have an impact every single individual I feel like there's a lot coming at everybody right now from all different angles and that can make folks feel a little hopeless. But there are actions everyone can take and and action is the antidote to despair you you can make a difference on these issues and and we at the Conservation alliance we're a business network. So this is one of the rare um not super rare but one of the chances every once in a while where we get to engage individuals directly which is so exciting. But typically on a day-to-day basis we're working with businesses and so whether I'm talking to a corporation or an individual um one a one person business I tell them that your voice matters because a business what no matter the size also has a voice. So if there's individuals listening that they can take action as an individual or they can take action as a business. So the Conservation Alliance also has a business sign on letter urging the USDA to keep the roll this rule intact. And so there's multiple options that people can use a voice but the big takeaway I want folks to know is that you can make a difference. You do have a way to take action whether on this issue or in the future on something else.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

You know I love what you just said in terms of even if you're a single voice you may think that you're a single voice either you run your you know business or a one person operation or even an individual that just happens to listen to this episode and is moved by it. I love that you said that even that one voice still carries a large measure. I love the work that you all do. I'm so glad that I met you Wednesday and I hope that we can continue this conversation in the future.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Thank you so much. It was an honor to talk with you. I'm so glad that you're doing this work and sharing stories of people and places and how they come together and I'm grateful to be part of it and raise awareness of such a critical issue. So thank you for having

Closing Reflections And Resources

SPEAKER_01 26:19

me.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Carla thank you for taking the time to walk through all of this with us and for helping make a complicated issue a little easier to understand. I think one of the things I'm taking away from this conversation is that public lands can sometimes feel like something that exists far away on a map. But they're not. They're the trail you hike on a Saturday morning, the river you fish, the climbing route you come back to the forest you drive through on your way somewhere else and sometimes they're simply the places that give us the reason to get outside in the first place. As you've heard, right now there's a public comment period open on the proposed changes to the roadless rule and that period closes October 6th. I'll put links in the show notes where you can learn more, see the maps we talked about and find information about submitting a comment if you decide you want to weigh in. And regardless of where you land on this particular issue I think Carla made an important point. We have a voice to what happens to our public like people thanks for listening to Expert Local I Mike