The Saluda Grade Trail: Connecting Towns and Generations

Welcome And The Big Vision

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're listening to Exploration Local, a podcast designed to share stories about the people who shape the places we explore, the brands and ideas that get us out there, and the experiences that fuel a spirit of adventure. I'm Mike Andris, host of Exploration Local, and I believe there's always something new to discover and new stories to be told, whether it's around the corner or miles from home. I encourage you to wander far but explore local. Let's go. What do you do with a railroad that once conquered one of the steepest grades in the country, helped build entire communities, and then fell silent? Well, if you're lucky, you get a second chance to bring that history back to life. That's the idea behind the Saluda Grade Trail, a 31.5 mile vision that will connect communities across North and South Carolina, opening up a historic corridor to cyclists, walkers, families, and a whole new generation of explorers. But turning an abandoned railroad into a trail of this scale takes a lot more than just clearing the tracks. There's history to preserve, communities to bring together, natural habitats to protect, and a whole lot of work happening behind the scenes. Today I'm talking with Lee McDonald from Powell and Summer Flynn from Conserving Carolina about how this project came together, where things stand, and what the future might hold. I am so excited to share this conversation with you. This may be one of the projects of a lifetime, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

And the only reason I say that is because my context of experience is Virginia Creeper Trail, which a lot of our listeners are gonna know. They're also probably gonna know if they're from the eastern part of the state, they're gonna know the American Tobacco Trail. The people in North Carolina, South Carolina, and probably uh places way farther than that are gonna know the Swamp Rabbit Trail. And we're so we're talking about three pretty iconic experiences. But when you look at the reason I think that this is probably a project of a lifetime, is when you look at the topography and you look at the towns that that this type of trail is gonna go through, you're gonna be talking about a link to the past with the steepest grade at the time that was ever, I guess, recorded coming up the mountain. So all of that it passes through, plus it passes through the Green River Game Lands, it's gonna pass through the South Pacolet River and all of the waterfalls. I mean, it's it's gonna be amazing. So I know you all know that. I'm just kind of coming into this. Um, and we're gonna unpack all of that here today. Let's talk about how we actually got to the point where we can be sitting down here and talking about a potential trail.

Why The Railroad Mattered

SPEAKER_00 2:27

How do we get here?

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Well, as you mentioned, we it all starts with uh the railroad and trying to move goods and move people up a mountain, which was a bit of a problem. So the you know, engineers at the time realized that they could take the quote unquote easier route and not and go around the mountain, but it the ground wasn't as stable. So despite the fact that it seems unreal that you would try to go up a mountain, that was actually a you know, more secure engineering um plan. So when that happened, it really made these towns. Suddenly you had people going from the low country who wanted to go up to the mountains. And over time, these towns, you know, a few years after the first railroad incorporated as towns and communities. So, you know, you could say that we're all in these communities, expect, you know, the smaller ones, Saluda and Tryon and Landrum and some of these areas are there because of the railroad. So, you know, with interstates and trucking and those practices, the railroad was not the most efficient and cheapest way to move people and goods anymore. And we of course know that. So when that happened, there were some options of what to do with it. One option was to parcel it all off and sell it. And the more preservation-minded option was let's keep it as a corridor, as a you know, multi-use kind of transportation corridor and that connects these communities. Um, it it keeps it all as one project. Um, so when Norfolk Southern, you know, wanted to sell it, that was the natural kind of inclination was let's preserve this, let's keep this as one corridor. Um there is so much historical value in it. And we, you know, that's one of the things we prioritize is keeping that and revering that because that's really why these communities are here, why a lot of people came here or stayed here. So the two organizations, you know, could work together and created a conservancy that was able to acquire the full corridor from Norfolk Southern and in order to turn it into a rail trail project. And that's the PAL and Conserving Carolina and at the time Upstate Forever helped in the acquisition of that. And that was a little over a year ago now. So that's really how we got to this point. It was talked about for a long, long time. You know, as a resident of Saluda, I heard about the trail for years before there was any active step, at least, you know, visibly from the public. So um I think it in some ways feels like it's happening quickly, but it's just now that it's the splashier things that we can talk about, more definitive things that we can talk about. So it's been exciting in the time, the little over a year that it's been acquired to see how um the excitement is changed as people start to realize that this is gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you mention how much time has already occurred up to this point because I know even the Acoustic Trail, that was 20 years in the making. And so sometimes we do just think about you know, this timeline that we insert ourselves is, you know, for for this, it's really far along in the planning and there's still so much more to go, but there's a lot that has happened. So so many people have been involved in a non-flashy way just to kind of get us to this point. So it's worth mentioning that there's a lot of work, as you already have mentioned very well, to lay the groundwork for something like this to even occur. And the interesting thing to me, again, we've already kind of talked about it, is it's one thing to build it's one thing to conserve land across counties and across towns. It's a whole nother thing to talk about state lines and then three different nonprofit groups that are trying to come together to do this. How does something like that come together and what what what's the work to make a trio like that happen?

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Oh

Partnerships And Funding Reality

SPEAKER_01 6:44

my goodness. It is definitely a lot of work, and I cannot understate the importance of relationships and partnership building and being able to collaborate. You know, we have had a longstanding relationship with Spartanburg County and with our other trails. And so when we started the conversation of do we want to undertake this and can we, do we have the capacity? Are we can we fundraise? Do we have long-term management plans? You know, we start with bringing in all of our partners and um Upstate Forever and PAL and Conserving Carolina have been partners for a long time. And so you just have to start roping people in and having those conversations. And when I first started at PAL, it was at least a weekly meeting with people to say, are we still on track? Can we still get the money? Can we, you know, pull this off? And so, you know, there's years of conversation, like you mentioned, just to even come to a decision with Norfolk Southern to sign a contract. And so, and then after that, it's all of the acquisition work, the survey and the appraisal and the title work and grant applications. And, you know, we're both very fortunate in that we were able to get the support of both states and f federal appropriations to help us get behind making this happen because that it's a lot of dollars for a really, really good public good. And so the just the amount of communication that's necessary to keep this rolling is, and now Summer and I are on a daily, you know, communication to make sure that we're all moving, moving together. And so that's important to us, and it's important that people who who witness this project come to life know that we're we're committed to making sure that this project happens and that we're working together, and we're making it what the local communities want as well as um providing for visitors.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

I love that. And you mentioned listening to people, listening to constituents, and listening to stakeholders. You all, I think, have done a remarkable job from the outside looking in of trying to engage the public and understand what their thoughts are, um, right, wrong, or indifferent, about the trail. And I know that I had the chance to meet both of you all a few months ago, back in August, at the session that you were holding in Landrum, which I don't know what the number was, but it seems like it's a few hundred people that showed up for this.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

It was thing about three hundred.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Three hundred.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

About how many we think we had. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Well, it felt like that. Yeah. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

It was fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

It was good. And it also, the the wonderful thing is that it was it was thoughtful in its design, but also the communication from station to station, you could go around and people really had a chance to talk about all the great things. And then you one of the things that made an impression on me is that you also made space for the people that might not be so excited about something like this. And and and that's not just Salute Grey Trail. I think that's any project of this magnitude that you're really trying to kind of understand what people think and and how they think and feel about this. Because the collaboration piece and certainly wanting to have support behind this to propel it and move it forward, I think, is really key.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Aaron Powell I think that's part of the benefit of having local and community-minded nonprofit organizations putting ourselves out there to hear everything. And so when we we've played a little bit with the structure of how we handle these meetings and what is most beneficial for people. And sometimes it's we want to hear and sometimes it's we want to communicate. And so we don't always um know the best route, other than we want to make sure people hear from us and we want to make sure people have the opportunity to speak to us. And so that was sort of the thought behind having stations and so that everyone can have a one-on-one conversation with somebody

Listening Tours And Community Conditions

SPEAKER_01 10:46

to answer their questions and have that face-to-face. That's really important to us. And I know that's important to conserving Carolina as a nonprofit who serves the community. That's what we are our missions are. We're there to do that. And so um, that's been a really important part of why the nonprofits got involved and why we continue to lead this process with the support of our local government partners. But we hope that people feel that and uh want to keep doing that. And so we are always open to hearing from folks, even as we continue through this process.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Yeah, and we were fortunate to be awarded an ARC Arise planning grant that afforded us almost a year of community engagement work. So we were very deliberate and spent the time to talk to the communities, do surveys, have focus groups, and that gave us a lot of good data about uh what people were most uh excited about with the trail, um, you know, recreation and educational opportunities, but also where the conditional support was. And what we heard back was, you know, there was 96% of people saw clear benefits of the trail with conditions. And so after we did that community engagement, a lot of the work was looking at those conditions. What are they? They're parking, their safety, um, and really spending a lot of extra time on those areas. So, yes, uh to Lee's point, you know, data is great, but it doesn't replace the opportunities that we try to have every few months, you know, seasonally, to look someone in the eye and hear about what they're excited about or what they're concerned about. So data is great, but the conversations are also great. And so we have tried to make sure that we have a good blend of both and sentiments change. So it's not like the engagement work that we did is static. We understand that, that it's a continual conversation with these communities as the project changes, as the communities change. We want to make sure that the communication is ongoing.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Aaron Powell Oh, I love that. It sounds like the data kind of informs and then the conversations that you have sort of humanize this whole experience, is what it seems to be.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Aaron Powell It's true. We learned in the engagement work, for example, that parking was a concern. So, you know, one of the approaches that we're taking is a tiered parking system. So people don't want everyone parking in the downtowns, and then you go to shop or eat lunch and there's nowhere to park. So what does that mean? That means really looking at edge of town parking, out-of-town parking, so that trail users have a place to park that is different, maybe, than someone who's going to shop or someone who's going to have lunch. So, you know, those are the ways that that engagement work has really informed the process. Um, also, we heard a lot about growth and and what people wanted, and it was very clear that it was managed local first growth. So looking at, you know, opportunities for our friends and neighbors to open a small business. So things like that is it's how we spent the time, we set with those results, we had those conversations, and then looked at how those can inform the early preliminary designs that are being worked on now on the South Carolina side.

Parking Plans And Local-First Growth

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Aaron Powell So let's do two things. Let's talk about, let's paint the picture about what this trail is gonna be, what what the areas it's gonna sort of pass through. Um and I'd love to come back to that small piece, or excuse me, not small piece, but the the important piece about where it's gonna start.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

My favorite word to use is fluid. We're fluid around here. This is such a large project that um a lot of pieces have to fall into place. And one of those being grants and funding. And so um Summer mentioned that we were lucky enough to have a RISE planning grant. We've also applied, we've partnered together to apply for an implementation grant. So we do not know the results of that yet, but the results of that will likely influence where the first miles on the ground will be. So um unfortunately, sometimes the dollars just have to show up. And so, you know, we're working very hard together to make sure that happens and that we continue building momentum as we do this. But I would say as of right now, don't know for sure, but we have on the South Carolina side, we have some dollars for design and engineering and also a first phase of construction, and that's thanks in part to an appropriation by Senator Graham. And so we have sort of asked our design team to break up a phase of five miles from the North and South Carolina state line through Landrum as part of getting cost estimates and those things together for this Arise implementation grant.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

All right. So let's talk about sort of the geography and what you can kind of

The Route Through Towns And Wildlands

SPEAKER_00 16:05

expect. So if I'm riding all the way, I'm of course I'm looking way out into the future, 31.5 miles, I'm starting a saluda. And for me, I'm probably riding downhill.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

So Well, you'd actually be starting in zirconia. Oh we're right now we are that's kind of the 31 and a half miles starts um near zirconia, and then would go through Saluda, as you mentioned, and so down the grade, then to Tryon, and then through Landrum, Campabello, and Inman, and and a little past Inman. Um, and that's the full 31 and a half miles. So, you know, we're looking at as as Lee mentioned, multiple partners. We have multiple county partners, multiple municipalities, you know, multiple organizations, um, at the you know, we have county level, state level. So our meetings are full, and uh it's exciting. One of our taglines is connecting the Carolinas, but in a way it's connecting so much more because we are all, you know, all on these calls, all in the in the process together. But the the full scope of it, you would go through, you know, around lakes and down the the historic grade, which, you know, has anyone really been able to enjoy in a really long time. You know, the and we if you look at the last passenger trains that came through, you could arguably say those are the last people who really got to enjoy in some way, you know, that grade. So that's gonna be a fascinating part for um our trailgoers is is down that grade and uh having heard about it for so long, but then to experience it. And then, you know, through towns like Tryon, um, of course Landrum and Campabello and Inman, it's exciting to see how all of these communities, you know, run mostly parallel to the corridor. You start to really understand how the towns were even formed and the role of the railroad and all of it. But you're gonna go through wetlands and you know, flat areas and mountain areas and waterfalls, waterfalls, and uh, you know, all sorts of things. It's gonna be a a real diverse experience, you know, if you start at one end and go through the other. Of course, as Lee mentioned, we're looking at it right now more in segments because it it is just a a more feasible option uh at this point. But and that's what we heard back from the community, that it was less about, you know, roll it out 31 and a half miles and more about can I get this piece right here where I live so my school can use it, my church can use it, and my walking group can use it. Like that's really what the users were most interested in. And so that's how we're looking at it. And as Lee mentioned, a lot of it will depend on funding. And our job at this point is making sure that we are fluid and nimble and prepared so that when the funding comes, it you know, we're ready to go uh in whatever capacity that is, at whatever point in the process that is.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah. Talk about some of the user

Who The Trail Is For

SPEAKER_00 19:10

groups. Is this going to be limited to any particular type of people exercising or motorized, non-motorized, walkers, runners, e-bikes? What's the what's the gamut of who gets to enjoy this great trail?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

The goal would be so that everyone can find a way to enjoy the trail that is also respectful of everyone else who is also enjoying the trail. So that that may come in many different forms, um, but it's looking like right now, at least on the portion that we have designed in South Carolina, it will be a paved asphalt surface with some concrete, um, maybe ribbon curbing to allow for future connections, you know, as we grow. Um, but that that is sort of what we're looking to serve. And part of PAW's involvement is, you know, we look to make our trails accessible. Um, and that includes, you know, people who are pushing strollers and getting their families and their kids on the trail and people in wheelchairs or, you know, with with other other needs. And so providing as much of that for as many people as possible, we hope people will be able to find a way to utilize it however suits them.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

We we are stay updated on the trails around us. We know what issues they have and what they don't, what the cautionary tales are. And so we are learning from that, and we will certainly apply that um when we get to that point to make sure that it is safe and um, you know, a multi-use, but we don't necessarily know exactly what that means yet. And we have the benefit of seeing, you know, what's happening with Acosta, for example, or the swamp rabbit, and and learning from that and applying that. And luckily, all of those are partners in the sense that they do share with us what's what they wish they had done differently, what they wish they'd waited on, you know. So it's been a really nice uh sharing experience to learn from the trails around us. And we are humble in that way that we will apply, you know, what they wish they'd done. Uh, we're open to to doing that and figure really that a lot of this, uh, you know, e-bikes, for example, a lot of that is being ironed out with some of these other trails. So we're gonna see what works and what doesn't and be open to to those kinds of things. So some of that is still unknown, and there will certainly be a period of time where there will be a trail etiquette conversations with the community. Um, and that's something, of course, you know, in Acosta we've seen that they've really had to spend some time doing that. And that's an important part of putting a trail on the ground, is also helping people understand how to use. It to keep everyone safe because we do want you know everyone to be able to enjoy it and have a good experience, and that means different things to different people, but we would take the time to educate the users of the trail, and that'll be a really important part of the process.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Aaron Powell Let's zero in a little bit more

Preservation Decisions And Railroad Artifacts

SPEAKER_00 22:17

on the communities. Let's talk about some of the communities kind of along the way. I'd love to talk about that. And then what sort of the overall sense of benefit to this community do you are are you are you pulling out of some of these listening sessions, for lack of better terms, that you guys are doing?

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Well, on both sides of the project, we have steering committees and they play a really important role, um, especially, you know, we kind of talk about we're in a newer phase of the project, meaning that we've we've moved out of the engagement, community engagement phase, though that is will forevermore be ongoing. But on the North Carolina side now we're spending more of our um energies and time on the uh fundraising. But at the same time, we are relying heavily on our North Carolina steering committee, and that is made up of representatives from all of the municipalities, um, and we really lean on them for that input channel. So, you know, if if there's a question that we have um, you know, about track removal, for example, that's something that is timely at this point. We are in certain sections on the North Carolina side, we have double tracks and in some cases triple tracks. And those tracks do have value. The steel has value and we know that, but the historical aspects have more value. So we're looking at very uh carefully at what tracks do we want to keep and preserve. So, for example, near Melrose, we have the safety tracks, and those were really an engineering invention for um to keep the the corridor safe because there were so many accidents, you know, or back in the 1800s. So that is is uh a feature that we still see today on interstates, but that was an invention, if you want to call it that, on the Saluda Grade of what do we do with these trains that are coming down the mountain at these speeds where you don't know it's a runaway train until it's past being a runaway train. So, you know, looking at how um they handled that and creating these safety tracks that would essentially run the railroad uh cars up a small hill to catch it so that it wouldn't, you know, careen off the edges or something. So, yes, those are valuable steel tracks on the ground, but also they have a lot of uh significance. And so we're leaning on our steering committee to talk to their commissioners, to their elected officials, to their historic societies and their train experts and their communities to decide what do we want to keep, what's really important to us. So, an example in Saluda, um, we have the Saluda Depot, which is not in which is not currently in its original location. So there was a real big interest in with Saluda residents residents to keep the part of the track where the depot used to be, and maybe putting a caboose or a push car or something to kind of commemorate that. So, you know, we do not want to make these decisions in a vacuum, and we do not. We lean on these committees, um, we lean on the communities to hear what they want to keep, what's important to them, um, and then as much as we can factor that into the planning. Um, and it's been a really great balance to, you know, look at the the trail side. Planning is kind of how we're looking at it, and working with these communities. Um, and they are literally all at the table, so they can talk to their planning boards, they can look at their ordinances, they can that's the type of planning that a lot of the communities are currently doing. They're doing parking study. You know, they're looking at what do how do we want to connect with this trail and letting them bring that conversation to the table and then incorporate that into the planning as best that we can.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

I love that. Yeah, very nice. Yeah, and it is um we've had the opportunity to have uh Saluda on the on the podcast when we probably our first or second year, and yeah, the the the history behind that it's really held dear to the people that are in that community. And one of the really cool things is is and I can't name them off the top of my head, but just looking back through the material of some of the pictures, there's like depots in all of these little towns, which is really cool. It kind of gives me that idea of you know the Virginia Creeper Trail where there's a couple of those, but now we have multiple towns with multiple of these stations that really allow you to kind of tap into the to the past in an authentic way. There's they still exist, which and maybe in a different location, but they're they're still there. It's our it's our connection to the past.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

It's true. And when you look at pictures of these towns from the late 1800s, you can recognize, oh, that's Landrum, that's tryon, that and and that is a point of pride for the communities that you can 150 years later still recognize the towns, and that informs what we are doing. I think that is very important to keep, you know, it's it's easy to think, oh, all these towns are the same, but they're not. They're, you know, everyone who's been there or lives there knows that each one of these areas has a very unique feel to it, and that is important to retain. And um, people are proud that their uh downtowns look like they did 150 years ago. Yeah. Uh and so we want to preserve that. We're um this is a preservation project just as much as a recreation project.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Aaron Powell hadn't thought about that. And that but it does make perfect sense now that I can, you know, I've I've traveled through these towns. Let's talk about some of the South

Small Town Identity And South Carolina History

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Carolina side. So we're entering, uh excuse me, we're leaving out of uh Saluda, and then I think we have Tryon, and then we're down into the South Carolina, beautiful, beautiful South Carolina area.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Aaron Powell Yes. Um and that uh that is also something that we've tried to highlight is that the trail is not a one-size-fits-all, like Summer said. We we want to respect and pay homage to the unique character of each area. And so it it may look different. The trail width may be different. Um, you know, how we go through certain areas may look different. We have a lot of beautiful countryside and agricultural land in South Carolina. Um, we also the trail will go through some old textile mill sites, and we have some mill villages nearby. That's a huge part of Spartanburg County and our um uh industrial background and how how we came to kind of get this unprecedented amount of growth. And so, you know, when we go through Inman and Campabello, there there's a whole lot of that history, maybe in a different way, that is really interesting and neat to see. And we have, you know, it's attractive to businesses or facilities to want to locate there and be able to turn that into some sort of revitalization project or s of some of these old facilities. Um, we have a partner who's really excited about an old water tower that's not being used. Could we make that a public art project? And so people are really, really invested in utilizing some of the resources that we have to get people engaged and um bringing them back into a community feel. And um, it's exciting to see how many people have ideas and um want to throw those at us. And we're all for it, and I'm sure that will uh continue to evolve as we start talking about how to once it's on the ground, how to get people to come experience the trail, come experience what's around the trail and continue to come back and get people engaged with it and and make it a a real gathering space. So yeah, the the vibe is is maybe a little bit different, but is really unique. And so we hope that it will provide a really great experience that will continue to bring people back to this trail as as we continue to build it, because there's so much to experience on in both states.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Yeah, yeah, you're so right. And before we started recording, we were talking earlier about my personal experience in Inman. And I have to admit, I've lived here for 14, almost 15 years. I had never been to Inman before, uh, but since then I have already been back a couple of times. I've had uh lunch, I will definitely be back for dinner. I I think I saw some of the there was old textile mill that has been repurposed into something else, and then uh right up the street from that are all these milltown homes that are all sort of looked exactly the same, and it's really evident that those are milltown homes. So almost is the feeling of like being up in Pennsylvania or other places in the northeast where that existed. So that's really cool. And then the other thing, too, is you can see how Inman in particular has really kind of not only revitalized, but they are completely, it seems like they're completely sold out for this project. Like they're the support, I don't know if sold out for is the right way to say it, but you can tell the support's there. Like I didn't see a single storefront that did not have the saluted great trail on it. And on the railroad tracks at the intersection there, you know, the saluted great is coming. It's like part of their new personality, if you will, and vibe for the place.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

They also, I don't know if you've noticed, I think Tryon maybe has some, but a lot of the communities have started putting little signs for the Saludigrade Trail on their street lights and some of those flags where you have special events. So we are so thankful to have that support and and have that get out there to the community, um, to have people buy into this from the beginning and support us as we um make our way through and bring this project to life. So, yes, Inman has been really fantastic partners, as have the other communities, in thinking about, as someone mentioned earlier, parking plans um to support their communities, programming options, trailside amenities, planning for what they want, trailside parks. And so we have a lot of people, council members, administrators, business owners reaching out to us saying, How can we get involved? Which is in my mind, feels very rare to have this level of ground up support from community members and every everyone in between.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Yeah. And speaking

Business Momentum And Recreation Economy

SPEAKER_00 32:44

of business leaders, you actually had, if I'm not mistaken, a bicycle manufacturer who actually knowing that this trail was going to come, they intentionally moved their business alongside those communities.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

I did. Yes. And um what what's really exciting about that is, you know, we I have regular meetings with them because they're excited to be a partner with us as we continue to grow. And, you know, we've talked with them and thought about is that a logical place for a trailhead, for parking, what other sort of business would be a good trail side amenity? They want to have maybe an offshoot bike trail coming into their property and do tours of their facility and bring people into their so it it's mutually beneficial to have interest in business owners and trail users to provide more experiences along the trail. So so happy to have um those kinds of folks involved, but also recognizing, as Summer said, that it's also an opportunity to work with local people who maybe want to open a business an opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Well, yeah, because we're talking about economic development. We're talking about tourism and kind of economic development. And I so sometimes the economic development piece may be a sort of a bad word. Like we don't want to do this just to bring but it's but it's really not. I mean, you're talking about opportunities, and and we've even seen it here on the Acusta Trail, just with Lenox Station and Trailside Brewing and and others, where they are people that that specifically move to a region, to an area, like physically move families to an area to open up something that was right on the Acusta Trail. And then you see this happening on the northern kind of sections as well. You see cognitive brewing, you see Packers Place, you see root and I mean there's a lot of different things that are that are that are part of that. And yes, it opens up opportunities for somebody that said, you know, I had this idea for an industry or a business or something, and now if it's trail-centric or outdoor centric or you know, tourism-centric, this is the opportunity for them. And and the really cool thing, it seems to me, is like you don't know what those are gonna be yet. Like the future's yet to be written, so you so you don't know, you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Yes, that's right. And it's exciting. And you know, that doesn't have to be something that like Summer and I decide, it's for these communities to decide. And whoever wants to get involved can can do that. We're here to support that by providing the the opportunity and and making the project go forward. So um, you're right. It we don't know, and it's it's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Yeah, there's no crystal ball, you just have no idea.

unknown 35:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

And we often say, you know, we are not in the economic development business, but you cannot separate it from what we're doing. So that's why the relationships with the municipalities and the communic communities is so important. But you're right, just using the Acousta as a model. I think Linux station, it's maybe uh uh uh 70 jobs or so. But you know, you think about what we're working on now is is going to benefit the children, you know, who are in elementary school or middle school now. So, you know, it does give opportunities. Um, if you're just looking at demographic data of the area, um, and of course I'm more well-versed on the North Carolina side in these rural communities, but um the median age is 65. National data shows that trail

Youth Projects And A Living Legacy

SPEAKER_02 36:05

users, you know, tend to be local youth. So I get excited about, you know, I'm raising a child in one of these rural areas, and you know, if she grows up and chooses to go to a city, that's great, but I don't want her to have to leave to go to a city to get a job. So it's exciting to think that though it's not at all our focus or our expertise, that perhaps we are creating lowering the barrier to some of these um young people who might want to start some kind of bike rental business or repair or something with the outdoor recreation economy and the opportunities that might afford the young, not just the young people, but the people who already live here. Um, you know, a lot of people in in the on the North Carolina side commute to, you know, larger places for work. So the thought that even, you know, uh 10, 12, 20, whatever people now have a job in their community is really exciting. And we've started projects with the schools, and to the youth, I was shocked at how excited they are about this project because these are children who have never seen the train. It has been, the railroad has been quiet since they were born. So I've been going to schools and some of the children are like, oh, what's a train engine? You know, it's they've they said, Oh yeah, I've been on a train at Dollywood. So there's there's this gap of understanding where these children's great-grandparents, even their grandparents, the corridor was a vital part of their lives. And now the children, they've never heard the train whistle or felt the excitement of hearing the train roll up and know their mail is on it or the visitors are coming. So um to see them get excited about the project and not just the history, but they want to know how to build a trail. Lee and I were just talking last week that um I'm going into the some of the schools and trying to find what are you all interested in? Because they're gonna do a year-long student-led heritage project where they are going to interview their elders, they're gonna capture the history of the corridor. Wow. And then it will help inform an interactive map that we have on our website eventually. Um and we've gotten grant support for this, and we'll be hopefully working with some South Carolina children as well. And I, as almost an afterthought, threw into the list of, you know, what top the topic tally sheet. Um, at the last minute, I threw in trail building and bridges and things like that, and let the children tally up what they were most interested in. And they were so interested in how you build a trail. They wanted, we, you know, we want to meet the engineers. We want to know how do you build a bridge over wetland? We want to know how do you, you know, they have all these questions about the actual infrastructure itself, which was really surprising to me, but I said it was student-led. So now I'm, you know, Lee and I are working on, well, can we can we bring some kids to the site and let the engineers talk to them about how do you plan a trail? How do you do this? It's a massive project. So it has really given me a lot of inspiration to see the energy that the young people have for this corridor that it quite frankly does not mean a lot to them because it's covered in kudzu or you know, it's just the thing. Oh, you mean the tracks outside of the restaurant I eat in in Landrum? Yes, those tracks, you know. So you I could walk to my friend lives in Landrum, I could walk to them. Yes, you could. So it's it's exciting to see the ownership that the the kids and the youth in the area are taking over the project, and really about the building portion. That's been an exciting thing, and so we're gonna try and bring them in on this and let them see. And I like to think that, you know, there's a few kids in the mix that now might go into engineering or, you know, environmental things or you know, botany, whatever it is. But um, it's exciting to just see them firing off um with this project, this new generation, and already hearing them talk about, oh, my great-grandmother knows this, and so cool. Um, you know, uh worked at the lumber yard and Landrum and all of these kinds of things. So it's exciting to think that again, we are not doing this in a vacuum. We are just stewarding the project. Um, but that's been in a really exciting new advancement, I guess, with the project that we didn't know was going to be a big large part of it is oh, the youth want to be involved. Great, let's let's make that happen.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

I never would have thought in that category. And it's interesting to me because I feel like there's something that's happening in today's youth specifically that is wanting to pull back from the social media, they're wanting to pull back from all the screens in the immediacy, and they want a connection to their past. I don't know if it's just the circles that I'm running in or seeing it through the lens of my own kids, but that is real and it seems to be happening, and you just gave a wonderful example of that coming to life.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

I also like when I think about growing up, when I say I'm a trail builder, like when I was growing up, I didn't know that was a thing. Like I could do that for a living, like how cool. And we mentioned earlier this is a once-in-a-lifetime type project, and we're like leaving all the people involved in this project are leaving a legacy for the people to enjoy and get things out of for a lifetime to come. And so I just think it's so neat and it's amazing seeing especially the youth get involved. I have a five-year-old at home, and he was sitting next to me while I was looking at some of these projects, and he said, Um, mama, when I'm medium like you, can I build trails too? And I said, Oh my gosh, of course. And then he said, Can boys build trails too? And so I'm just like, this is an amazing experience for me and um has been enlightening for me. And so I'm honestly just so grateful to be a part of this and to leave something behind that I hope lots of youth and people getting into new careers, but also people growing up can experience and enjoy and be able to look back when they have their kids and grandkids about um using this facility and and whatever they w they want. So it it's been fun and I'm looking forward to getting more involved with the youth and other other groups like that.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

I love that. Yeah, I love the word you use legacy too, because you're definitely leaving that. And so it's not just you at your professional stage of life, but you even have kids that are we know are gonna be part of the legacy leaving for for future generations, for many, many future generations, which is really, really cool. That's very cool. I absolutely love that. One thing that I would be remiss not to mention in this is that you all have already secured the land, so all the land for this is secured, the tracks are secured. And the other thing that comes out of that is that we have a wildlife corridor that really kind of exists, and so all those ecosystems now can be per protected in perpetuity. And so not only that, but they get to see the the how do you build the trail and all the businesses that kind of come alongside of it. Now you have the naturalists that can sort of have a tie-in to this trail as well and be able to see things and things preserve that if it was just development, development, development, they would not have a chance to kind of kind of experience. So that's a whole nother element. I know that's really, really crucial to some of the work that you all do with conserving Carolina too. But um, yeah, that's that's a piece that I would love to touch on a little bit

Habitat Protection And Trail Interpretation

SPEAKER_00 43:54

too.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

Yeah, you're right. It goes, you know, the uh sever it goes through several ecosystems, the the corridor. does. So and you know, that creates its own challenges from a preservation perspective, certainly, but it also op offers a lot of opportunity for, you know, users of the trail to experience all of these. And, you know, it's going to be exciting when we get to the point of having um signage and you know interpretive signs and things along the trail and uh point out some of these salamander varieties and you know flowers that grow and some of these unique things to our area. And we're not there yet, but we certainly we we have done the environmental review so we know you know the unique areas that the corridor will move through and we know the challenges that that will offer us later on. But that is of highest importance is is protecting the environment as we um move along through the different stages of the project.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Love it. One thing we haven't talked about that I don't know if y'all want to kind of unpack this a little bit, but this is not only 31 and a half miles of trail that you're looking to plan, but there's connector trails that are going to tie in or could potentially tie in to some of the other trails to really widen this network. I'd

Connector Trails And Bigger Networks

SPEAKER_00 45:12

love to hear more about that.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

Yes. So um I think I mentioned earlier we have over 20 miles on the ground in Spartanburg and surrounding Spartanburg County. We call that the Daniel Morgan Trail System some more ties to our our history um in Spartanburg. We also have plans to expand that network to 55 miles in the next couple of years as part of our strategic implementation plan. So we are we're fast at work still moving um building more trails. We also have a feasibility study that would connect the southernmost section of the Saludigrade in Enman into Spartanburg that's about 10 miles. So eventually the Saludigrade will connect into our trail network and we hope we just keep going.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

I love that and on the North Carolina side a long term goal is to connect to the Acusta Trail. So of course that would open up make the trail I mean we don't I don't want to even throw out a number because it's a it's a hope and a dream at this point but there's a lot of interest in that and then perhaps you know maybe not as grand but just as important these communities are hoping to connect to some of their trail networks. So a lot of the communities already have trails that go to you know the Nina Simone House for example in Tryon or in Saluda there's the Madame Phoebe Sullivan Temple that is um they're working on now to restore and there's Henry's Nature Center. So there are already plans at these hyperlocal levels of how do we get people off the Saluta grade trail and to these historical trails. So it's really opening up for the communities themselves this vibrant network of heritage trails that can then connect to the Saluda grade not to mention that it then opens up funding and grant opportunities for these communities to do sidewalk improvements and you know capital kind of infrastructure improvements to for connectivity and safe crossings and things like this. So it kind of has this ripple effect and allows the communities to really highlight their individual heritage and as we mentioned it's so important to people and it's all very unique depending on where you are on this corridor map. But it's been exciting to see that. So maybe that only adds a mile but it's a really valuable mile to add a a really valuable loop so to speak that can get people off the this exciting trail and into the parts of these communities that make them so unique and special.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Yeah I I absolutely love that because this is not just a 31 and a half mile project it is so much more. And the economic not just the economic development but also your connection to that place increases exponentially when you're able to experience so many different offshoots of of the trail. So when I read that and learned that I thought well done I think that's going to be absolutely perfect. And it sounds like some of the other areas just kind of lend themselves geographically to where they are to be able to tie into this as well and I know there's additional work to be done.

Timeline Updates And Track Removal

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Speaking of let's talk about kind of where we are today. I know you all put a beautiful um timeline on a project like this. I've never seen that before but it's nice because you can immediately engage and know this is where we are today. So let's unpack that little timeline a little bit and then we'll talk about where we are and still what's left.

SPEAKER_01 48:43

Where to start there there are so many pieces that are all moving along together um which is why it's so important that we communicate so much but so we have closed uh with Norfolk Southern as of last year and um since that time have been working on um all of the important planning documents that Summer mentioned earlier through that grant from Arise. Done a lot of the stakeholder engagement we out of that came a um marketing plan, a community engagement plan and a economic development plan which is informing some of those design design decisions. On the South Carolina side we have gotten under contract with an engineering firm to start the design and survey and engineering of the roughly 15 miles that are on the South Carolina side and together have recently put out advertisement for bids on the rail removal for um the rail in in both states. So we're still working through what that looks like it has been a a learning experience for me on how to navigate procurement guidelines in multiple states and multiple jurisdictions and all of that fun stuff. And so it's been very informative but very fun and we've learned a lot and so um we hope that we will be able to nail that down in the next month and at least on the South Carolina side start pulling some of that up and people um will be able to see see people on the ground moving about here this this winter so that we can be ready to fingers crossed get that money and and start building um in the spring. So I I do this to myself when I I get ambitious with deadlines and timeline and put that out there. That of course may not happen and so don't hold me to that I myself will be disappointed if that that doesn't happen. So trying to remain fluid but we have ambitious goals so that people people still stay engaged in the project and know that we're here and get excited and so that that is a lot of work to come but um feels like a significant amount of progress in the last year and so very very proud of that and what we've been able to accomplish.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

I love that love that and on the North Carolina side we you know we're working with pal on the track removal process so that was a joint effort. This is the part of the timeline where we might we might it it might split for a little bit same project and all working together but different realities at some point. So on North Carolina we do not have funding secured so we are working towards track removal alongside PAL. We are also doing finishing up some asset surveying which is a survey of historical markers along the corridor that we know need to be preserved um handled you know to our local depots and things unfortunately the kudzu made us pause that for a couple months but we will finish doing that asset surveying continuing to work on grants we've put in a federal grant um just last week and that would be for three and a half mile section um near Saluda and then the another grant that is pending with PAL would maybe fund up from the state line to try on. So these are all hopes and dreams but we've worked really hard on if you know federal grants are their own beast and we have worked together on these and they have been massive endeavors and then you kind of release them to the ether and hope for the best. So that's the the stage we're in now but as Lee mentioned it's really focusing on getting ready. So if and when that those grants or other grants uh any funding arrives we're ready to go so it we're not rushing anything um but we are keeping a steady momentum and that feels really important. But we do have different, you know, there will be different people ultimately stewarding the sections of the corridor. So Spartanburg County North Carolina State Parks so it is one project there are times when they kind of uh diverge and then come back in terms of where we are in the process and at this point it really is just different funding realities. But we keep pushing ahead and you know on the North Carolina side we are that's our North Star right now is, you know, grants, grants, grants, grants. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

And then in addition to the grants and in the the federal monies that you might be going after, what about

How To Donate And Stay Informed

SPEAKER_00 53:29

individuals? How can individuals if they really feel so moved and they want to be a part of this how can they get involved?

SPEAKER_02 53:34

Well pal and conserving Carolina are working together now on you know a fundraising plan and more there will be more to come with that for a kind of organized plan. But at any point people can go to salutagraderail.org and you can donate you have the option of do you want to donate to the South Carolina side or the North Carolina side. But that is ongoing and that's something you can do over the website but there will be a much more kind of formalized uh fundraising coming up and we're working together on that.

SPEAKER_01 54:08

Wonderful wonderful the Sleuthagree trail website is also a great place for people to go to get information that is sort of we've worked together both Powell and conserving Carolina to feel like we are delivering information from one source and so want to make sure that people feel fully informed. You know, as we've kind of navigated and people have probably found out through this conversation things change on a regular basis and so don't want to overpromise and under deliver but we are working to be more as transparent as we can with with how things are going. And so we've especially coming out of that August meeting um we heard that a lot of people want to know more and have questions and so we've worked on updating our FAQ website that we will continue to do and we've started a sort of a mini blog series that will touch on sort of a a topic of where we are, what's happened and what we hope to come in the next couple of months or a year as we really start putting boots on the ground. So I would encourage everyone to to check out the website and sign up to get updates if you're interested. And again we we like to be in front of the community so we're not more than an email or a phone call away. So any way that we can help deliver information or help people to get involved if they want to be we we're all ears for I love it.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

It's clearly evident and so I have signed up for those updates. I have read through your website and I can concur that it is incredibly well done and like we were talking earlier even some of the updates coming out of that August meeting were already updated on your FAQs and so it was really cool to see how a lot of that is just kind of updated. Maybe not in real time but it's definitely it's definitely updated consistently yeah I love that. Well I I've enjoyed this conversation this has been so good to not only meet you all down in South Carolina but then also to have you spend a few minutes here in the pack and all this story. There's so much

Closing Thoughts And Subscribe

SPEAKER_00 56:07

of the story that's yet to be told we know that but knowing uh what you've already done and what's to come and the work that's being done is just really exciting. So I appreciate both of you all being here. I have absolutely loved this conversation and I hope this isn't the last time that we get to have this me need to maybe sort of connect periodically and just give some updates of what's going on with y'all.

SPEAKER_01 56:27

Yes thanks for having us and helping us spread the word and um supporting the project. Yes thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

What I love about this project is that the trail is really just the beginning it's a connection to the history of these communities the natural landscapes that make this region special and the opportunities that future generations might discover along the way. There's still plenty of work ahead and as Lee and Summer shared funding planning and community input will help determine how this project moves forward. To learn more follow the progress or find out how you can get involved visit solidigratrail.org. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode please subscribe leave a review and share Exploration Local with someone who loves exploring and discovery as much as you do. You can also follow Exploration Local on Instagram and Facebook and if you have an idea for a future episode or know a story that deserves to be told I'd love to hear from you. Feel free to email me at mike at explorationlocal dot com. Until next time I encourage you to wander far but explore local