Stop the Self-Judgment Shame Cycle: For Perfectionists Who Tend to Be Hard on Themselves

00:00:02
Speaker 1: Life audio. Really we're hard on ourselves because we'd really like to be perfect, Like we really were judging ourselves so harshly, But there's this upside down pride. It's like I just wish that I was the one that everyone was admiring and that was doing it all right? Or with our sin? Like do we really believe that our sin is cared for on the cross? Like that it is wiped clean, that Jesus's blood washes us white as snow? Do we truly believe that because Jesus was judged in our place?

00:00:34
Speaker 2: Oh? Friend, that's my friend, Shannon Popkin. And today we are talking about being judge, judging others, judging ourselves the Bible. I don't know, people get it confused. You're not supposed to judge, and then there's other verses that tell you how to judge. Today we are breaking it all down. So if you're hard on yourself, or hard on others, or hard on everyone yourself and others, you are in the right place. Hey, you're listening to the Compared to You podcast. I'm Heather Creek Moore, your host. I'm glad you're here today. Shannon Popkins, She's written a bunch of.

00:01:12
Speaker 3: Books, Comparison Girl, Control Girl. She talks about all the.

00:01:15
Speaker 2: Issues that you and I likely struggle with, so you can check out all of her resources at the link in the show notes. Hey, if you haven't joined us for a forty day journey yet, what are you waiting for? Our forty day journeys started last week? But you can still join us. You can watch the replay you missed learn more at improvebody image dot com look for the forty Day Journey tab. We would love to have you be there. Now, let's get to today's episode. Shannon Popkin, I'm so happy to have you back on the Compared to You podcast.

00:01:59
Speaker 1: Thanks to be back.

00:02:00
Speaker 2: Today we're talking about something I don't know.

00:02:02
Speaker 1: Do people like to talk about this?

00:02:05
Speaker 2: Are you a little bit judgy? I feel like I'm not judgy at all? And then sometimes I'm like, oh, that was totally judgy. So today we're going to talk about that. You uh.

00:02:15
Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right. I think it is something we don't really talk about. We do it in our heads, or maybe with a trusted friend. He's going to chime in, you know, and judge with us.

00:02:25
Speaker 2: I agree, yeah, yeah, but it's not something we talk about enough, I think, so let's just start with the basics, okay, because I feel like I've heard this a lot. You know, my husband has tod sermons on the Matthew passage. But it's like in christ and Dumb at large culturally, people are like, we're not supposed to judge, do not judge. The Bible says, do not judge. Is that actually true?

00:02:50
Speaker 1: Well, it is, and it isn't, you know, because look at Jesus said both. He said do not judge, and he said judge with righteous judgment. So it's got to be a little nuanced then, right, right, And I think the world is wanting to say, right now, don't judge. You know, that's your commandment, don't judge. And what they mean is like, erase all those lines between right and wrong so that we can just like link arms and be like create this judge free utopia already, Like can we please just stop all the judgment and the you know, the condescending superiority. And so for that last part, yes, let's please stop all the condescending superiority. But as Christians, it's not our place, is it to erase those lines between right and wrong? And so I think it's been like conflated into something that is that's not what Jesus is saying in the sermon, and them out and I mean, even just look at what he says. You know, he says, do not This is Matthew seven, do not judge, so that you will not be judged, for you will be judged by the same standard through which you judge others, and you'll be measured by the same measure that you use. And then he goes into that whole like, get the splinter out of your eye thing, right, And then but look at that, he says, hypocrite. First take the beam of wood out of your eye, and then you will be able to see clearly to take the splinter out of your other or your brother's eye. So the point is not to just get that splinter out and stop judging. The point is to get the splinter out so that I can see clearly to help somebody else with their sin otherwise, And so repeatedly I think with the donut, judge is a warning about hypocrisy, and so what a hypocrisy, Well, that's judging you for this thing I'm doing right now. I'm doing exactly the same thing. And that's really I think what we could maybe categorize this is a command, but it's really coupled with a warning. You know.

00:04:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's really good.

00:04:57
Speaker 2: And I think it's just really good for people to hear, like you actually read past, you know, judge not he does say for the way, you know, whatever measure you used to judge will be So it's like wait, wait, he said.

00:05:11
Speaker 3: Don't judge, and then you're you're gonna judge.

00:05:13
Speaker 2: So and then thinking about fruit, right, like we're supposed to judge.

00:05:18
Speaker 1: That's fruit in the Great Passage like yeah, and so it talks about let's see, be on your guard against false prophets they come and cheap clothing. And you're supposed to recognize people by their fruit, which in in other words, you're supposed to judge them by the fruit of their lives. Like there are people who aren't who they say they are. They are hypocrious, right, and so you have to have a you know, a discernment and be able to judge who they actually are based on their fruit. You're going to recognize them by their fruit. But back to that earlier part where you were talking about whatever you used to measure, out your judgment or I like to turn it and say, whatever your whatever size scoopyre going to measure your mercy with. So I've got these two like scoop sizes. Okay, you know those who are on YouTube can see. Yeah, but like I've got a big, normal size scoop. You know that you might scoop out like in a candy jar or something.

00:06:13
Speaker 2: And I've got this anybity teeny little a thirty second yeah one, yeah, of a tea SPO's very teeny thing. And so yeah, I think it's a good question to ask ourselves, like what am I going to use when someone has wronged me?

00:06:28
Speaker 1: How am I going to respond? Am I going to just like scoop out judgment with this huge scoop? Or you know, thinking of mercy? What if I scooped that like in whatever size I choose, is what the Lord is.

00:06:41
Speaker 3: Going to use?

00:06:42
Speaker 1: You know, He's just not okay with hypocrisy. And so I think keeping that in mind is really helpful and really important.

00:06:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really good.

00:06:49
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I don't know how much you've like thought about this ankle, or maybe you have even written about it, but thinking like I talked to him and all the time they're like, oh no, I give grace to other people all the time. Like I'm you know, I totally I don't judge people.

00:07:06
Speaker 3: It's just myself. It's myself.

00:07:09
Speaker 2: Like the scoop when I like measure myself is you know, heaps of you know, judgment, and I always kind of challenge them. I'm like, I don't like I hear you saying that, but I don't know if that's actually true, because because the standard that we hold to ourselves to a lot of times we do end up kind of subtly holding other people that that standard.

00:07:33
Speaker 1: Maybe we don't say.

00:07:34
Speaker 2: It out loud, but I don't know what are your thoughts around that.

00:07:37
Speaker 1: Well, again, I think it's both, you know, I do think there are times that we are so hard on ourselves, but it's really we're hard on ourselves because we'd really like to be perfect, Like we really we're judging ourselves so harshly, but there's this upside down pride. It's like I just wish that I was the one that everyone was admiring and that I was doing it all right? Or with our sin, like do we really believe that our sin is cared for on the cross, like that it is wiped clean, that Jesus's blood washes us white as snow? Do we truly believe that because Jesus was judged in our place, he was the judgment of God. The wrath of God fell on Jesus and he hung on that cross out of mercy for us. And our God is too just to make us pay for what Jesus has already paid for, right he doesn't, you know, that would be that would be a very unjust God to hold us harshly with condemnation because Jesus already paid for it, right, And so do we believe that, you know, those of us who do judge ourselves with extreme harshness, like, do I really believe that Jesus died on that cross, that he took my sin on him? And if so, then no, that's a misplaced, shame, misplaced judgment on myself. But I think you're right, because I do think, you know, maybe there are times and I kind of waffle back and forth, you know, I am oslate between judging myself harshly and again it's just like this this wounded pride of like, oh I did it. I did something so shameful I did it again, or I just I can't get it right. But then I kind of enjoy And this is something, this is the part where we just don't talk about Heather. It's gonna be good.

00:09:30
Speaker 2: Everyone's turning up their volume right now.

00:09:32
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, there's this enjoyment that we have of other people not doing it right, you know, of other people falling of like we get. I think we get these little judgy boosts of pride. I'm like, oh, look at them, can you believe? Like? And we have all this disgust and contempt in our hearts, and the finger of judgment always points down, It always points down from this elevated self exalting position. And so I think when we're judging ourselves, it's there's a pride component, But when we're judging other people there's also a different sort of pride component. And so in both aspects. Really, I think it's it's looking at ourselves with the right lens, the right evaluation, and then also doing that with other people, you know, and it really requires humility.

00:10:24
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I think boy, I think most of our problems would be solved if we just could always be humble, right.

00:10:31
Speaker 1: Exactly, yeah, And I really think that that's what people are reacting to when they say, don't judge, you know, don't judge me, you know, don't. What they're reacting to is the pride and the condescending superiority that they see in us. And it's legitimate, I think, even you know, I think everybody's kind of judging. Right. The stats say that non believers criticize Christians for being too judging, but I think the whole world's kind of judging. But I do think that non believers have a point when they look at Christians and say, you guys are so judgy, because we are, you know, we're so But in that the component that I feel like the Lord wanted me to talk about in this book, Heather, it's just like that, that condescension, like that, that exalting of myself. And as I as I'm looking down at the world, and I mean, Jesus, said Paul, And first Corinthian says, what business is it of mine to judge outsiders? Don't judge those who are don't you don't don't you judge? I'm sorry, don't you judge? Those who are inside? God judges outsiders. So look at that we've got some categories there. We are too, you know when we earlier we said judge with righteous judgment, But that's for that's an inside thing. We are to look at each other's through and we are in like Matthew eighteen, we are to talk to each other when we see habitual sin. But for the world, like that's we got to be careful because we're told not to judge, and like, what are we expecting? You know, why would we expect the world to be different?

00:12:11
Speaker 2: Right? Well, it's it's like what you said. I mean, there's absolute truth, and so we're not saying like, oh, we'll just accept everything. And you know, it's your truth, my truth, his truth for truth exactly. It's not that it's his truth, but it's God's truth. But God's judging them, right then, you know, our our ask, I think, our invitation, if you will, our command is to love right and Jesus walked with sinners and talked with sinners and ate with sinners and.

00:12:48
Speaker 1: Truly loved his enemies. Yeah, and if we're judging those that we like and they're actually they're not our enemies, They're God's enemies. Like that's what you were I think you were just saying, is like the judge is going to come from God upon them. They're God's enemies and he wants us to love them in you know. And so one of the things that I've thought about as I was approaching this topic is we can get it all right, you know, Like I actually have some appendixes in the back of this book that talk about like which category did these different people or these different situations belong in. And I looked at all the teachings of Paul and Jesus and I compiled, you know, some pretty good ways to think about it. But I did that maybe ten years ago I studied all of the or maybe even longer, fifteen years ago, I studied all the verses about judge, don't judge, and I put together this tidy little chart and I created it for my Bible study group and I handed it all out. But I think, Heather, after I got done with that, I just I was even more judging because now I could judge with precision who was doing it wrong and make sure I was doing all right. Yeah. So with that in mind, I think I wanted to come at this looking at stories of the Bible. Okay, And so I don't want us It's not to the exclusion of all the New Testament teachings, but I wanted us to look at stories because stories help us deal with the heart of the manner, and that really is what we're what we're what we need to think about is our heart pasture and so you know, thinking of people like who are going to be judged, like what is our heart toward them? And so like think about the story of the flood, you know, Noah and the flood. Think about all those people who got who were wiped away. That's the first story that I wanted to deal with in the book because it really sets up who is this judge that we all answer to? Who is God? And God's response? He grieved when he looked out and saw evil spreading and it had spread so far that there was only one left. No Noah was the only the only blameless righteous man. I mean, I think maybe even in his family, like the whole world had carved into evil and darkness, and it was just a horrible time in history. And so you know, the connotation is violence, and so there's you know, there's two sides of the sort of violence. So people were not only harsh and violent and evil in that way. But the people were getting hurt. You know, the Lord looks out and he sees all of this, and his heart was grieved. He is a judge who cries, you know, he's got tears over what he sees, and that I think right there is different than what I see in a lot of judging Christians. Yeah.

00:15:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he's just and holy and so he you know, has to be true to his character, but he still cares.

00:15:56
Speaker 1: It's like both are true. I think today people would like to say, well, no, like we have the New Testament. The Old Testament is all about judgment and harshness, but the New Testament. Look at Jesus, he's so merciful. Yes, that's true, but it's not as though the you know, we've got two halves of the story judgment in mercy. No, it's judgment and mercy woven through the whole thing. Like that's why I wanted to start with the flood story, because this is a story of judgment. And Jesus refers back to that story, the story of the flood, and he's like, it's going to be just like that, where there are people who are going to be washed away with judgment and they didn't even see it coming. And so he's warning them. He's warning about judgment. But if we look back at that story of the flood, don't just look at the flood waters. There's also an arc, right, and that's where the whole story has the spotlight. If I spoke on this topic a few weeks back, and I put a slide up and I showed them here's Genesis sixth through nine, and the black lettering that's all the verses that have to do with the judgment of the flood and everything. But the white lettering, the you know, the light colored front. That is all of the parts that are about the arc and the plans go moving forward, and the animals and the food and the construction and all. I mean, that's that's where the spotlight. That's where God's spotlight is on this story. He yes, he wants us to know that he is a god of judgment, But what has his heart, What he wants for us to know. The thing he most wants us to know is about his mercy. Look at his mercy on these people. Because what we find out at the end of the story of the flood is Noah was.

00:17:39
Speaker 3: Not this hero.

00:17:41
Speaker 1: He was not the savior, you know, you know, he gets drunk and and so it's like almost we see like a repeat of the story of Adam, where there's fruit and there's nakedness and there's shame. It's like it's a replay. So Noah's not the savior of the story. But Noah is shown such mercy. And what really makes him stand out is he's the one who walks with God, and that's all of us. So God doesn't give us this list of rules apart from him. He wants us to walk and talk with him and to learn a new way to live. But even so, we're going to fall short, just like Noah, and he makes away with this arc. And so it's this beautiful story of judgment and mercy. Yeah, yeah, it's the mercy rises above his judgment.

00:18:26
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:18:27
Speaker 2: Well, I'm kind of tying that back to what we're talking about just a minute ago, with like perfectionism and really wanting to get it all right or wanting to do everything perfect, and kind of I mean another way to say this is kind of like not wanting to need the cross in a way because I'd rather just make sure that I could do it all myself. But I think what you just pointed out, like the illustration from Noah is like, is the walking with God? Yeah, the walking with God like that, we're still caught in the like law, I want to do a per affect and He's saying walk with me, walk humbly with me, like Mike goes, Yeah.

00:19:07
Speaker 1: That was that was from the beginning. That was God's attention. That was his health. Is he wanted Adam and Eve to walk with him. Look at that tree was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It's like a good judgment tree, right, And he didn't give him that fruit. He kept that fruit from them because he wanted them to walk and talk with him, to have good judgment, right, and to understand wisdom in the world. And they they wanted the fruit. They wanted the fruit to the exclusion of walking with God. You know, they just wanted it for themselves. They wanted the knowledge, the wisdom, the understanding apart from God. And that's where that's the fall, right, And so the redemption has to do with returning to walking with God. I've heard it said that here in the West, if you ask somebody, well, let me just ask you howther how did Adam and Eve first sin? What did they do? Well?

00:20:02
Speaker 3: I think I know the right answer. They disobeyed God. Then the radios obeyed and ate the fruit is.

00:20:10
Speaker 1: The fruit we look at it. But if you ask somebody in the Middle East what they'll tell you what did they first do? They stopped walking and talking with God because they're more collectivist culture, and they put more emphasis on the ways that were influenced or that we influence one another, and so we tend to think more individualistically, right, Yeah, And we look at Noah and we think, oh, he had this standout righteousness. That's why God gave him the plans for the Arkans, because he has this spine and he does right and he's going to get the right outcome. But that's that's not how someone with a Middle Eastern mindset would look at it. They would be like, Okay, everybody else has fallen to sin. This man has got to be influenced by He's got to have outside help. And that's what the next verse says, Noah walked with God. But I want to go back to your point about I think we do. We want to just have give me the right and wrong? Give me the list, like and in fact, I think we would prefer that to walking with Jesus today. Right, Would you just tell me what's right and wrong? Like should I homeschool? Should I public school? Should I spank my kids? Should I put them in time out? Should I? You know, like, I'll give me the list. Give me and I'll get myself to the right side of every list. You know what's modest, what's in modest, what's the right movies to watch? What's not allowed? Just give me the list and I'll take care of it. Versus walking and talking with Jesus to have him give us this good judgment. It was never intended for us to just know right from wrong apart from God. It's always from within the context of this relationship. And I think we tend to judge other people based on like we get our lines, and we know the right and wrong line, and then we not only maybe draw our own lines, you know, we see, Okay, here's God's line, and I'm going to back up ten feet in my line, and then I'm going to judge the people who cross it. You and I were talking about the topic of young adults and dating because we both have young adult kids, and there's a trend right now to be super judgy about dating, like whether or not you should be on online apps, or whether or not you should date someone who like these these young adults that I know were telling me about this podcast that they listen to, and the woman, I'm sure, she's just a lovely woman, and you know, I love the ways that she's discipling these girls, but she kind of adds these like never date a guy who doesn't read his Bible seven days a week, like that sort of thing, and my heart is like, well, what about the guy who, like I think whether you said your husband came to faith as a twenty.

00:22:50
Speaker 3: What was seven? Yeah, twenty twenty seven?

00:22:53
Speaker 1: So and when did you meet him?

00:22:55
Speaker 3: I met him at thirty at thirty yeah, And at that.

00:22:58
Speaker 1: Point was he reading his Bible every day?

00:23:00
Speaker 2: I don't really know.

00:23:01
Speaker 3: I don't know that I was reading my Bible.

00:23:04
Speaker 1: I know, see, I.

00:23:07
Speaker 3: I don't think I would have standard, but.

00:23:10
Speaker 1: I think we, you know, we hold people to these standards that it's like, well, what are you tethering yourself to your list you know, of right and wrong and like good judgment or are you tethering yourself to Jesus, because Jesus may ask you to marry some guy who only reads his Bible on the weekends. But here is your hope, like it, where's your hope? Your hope is that, yeah, he's tethered to Jesus, he's walking and talking with the Lord. I'm walking and talking with the Lord. And that's our hope, not that we're doing it all right, because I guarantee you, at the end of that marriage, Aisle, there are some surprises awaiting, right, and our hope has to be in Christ.

00:23:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's really good. Well, and let me just back up a second. So you wrote a book It's called kind of Judge Like, and I know you explained, you know, doing outlining all the scripture for your Bible City group, but like, was there something like present day that you like, I don't know, to God, just like convict you of like I'm being judgmental. I need to look into this or was there something going on that you were like, I just this is what I want to write a book about.

00:24:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let me back up and just tell you how I grew up. So I grew up in a super fundamentalist environment. We were very aware of the lines. I'm very aware of the people who's stuck doing them. I have this memory of sitting on a bus with my friends from youth group and we are processing the righteous indignation burning in our fifteen year old hearts because a boy from our youth group had asked a girl from our school to a Horrors a movie, and so we were just outraged because we just knew that he had blown our testimony. It was outraged. Never mind that this girl was a believer, she just went to a different denomination, you know. And I don't think we could have told you why it was wrong to go see a movie, but it was like that was one of the lines that our group that we were part of, like we just knew that that was wrong, that that was going to ruin our testimony. And then now I go to see movies all the time, you know, so like if if it's not grounded again in like what God says, that's that's where we can go awry. And so growing up in that sort of a situation, in that sort of a context, I always knew that I was kind of judgy. I sensed it in myself, and I didn't like it in myself. But I think honestly, the more I've walked with the Lord, the more temptation there is right because now I know with with more clarity what is right what is wrong? You know, I'm someone who I spend a long lot of hours with my Bible open on an average day, and I can tell you all the ways, and yet I just sense in my heart that there's a drift, like I am not responding the way that Jesus has that he did. And so I think for me looking at these stories of the Bible, it was like as I was studying the stories, the Lord was exposing those those that heart pasture. And I got to tell you, like writing the book, oh, I have never been more tempted to judge people. Like it's like, oh, just this intense, Like I was losing sleep because all the Lord, I think he tests us with our message, and I think the enemy wants to, you know, come at us. I said that wrong. The Lord doesn't tempt Did I say tempt? He tests us and he's the devil. That yeah, the Devil tempts us. And I think probably both were happening. But I in my day to day life, Heather, I have this extreme temptation to hold court in my head and list out all the ways I'm right and all the ways you're wrong. And it's it's like fed by my pride. It's like I want to know that I know that I'm doing it all right. And I really find this like this again, it's embarrassing to say that, like this boost of pride when I can show you that you're doing it all wrong. Now, these are not things I would say to you. It's all very private.

00:27:25
Speaker 2: You've just gotten to see the inside of Shannon's head right here.

00:27:28
Speaker 1: It's awful. It's awful. But but yeah, as the Lord has exposed that, it's like, Okay, I don't want to be this person that I'm becoming. And I think, you know, maybe we we've all met somebody like that's super judgy and harsh. As an older person, the older we get, you know, these things tend to grow in our hearts, and I want to be more like Jesus. He was so so merciful, he was so kind, and so that's that's really what was on my heart. You know, I felt like maybe I'm the right person because I get it. I get it from inside those judge circles, and I know the temptation, and I just am just kind of calling us to consider, like I think, you know, I think we're all kind of judgy, but let's have an eye on our hearts, you know, let's have an eye on what is happening in our hearts.

00:28:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think maybe the category and that you and I both fall in, but I think a lot of listeners probably fall into is like the good good girl category, yeah, right, where it's like, well, you know, I follow all the rules, I do all things.

00:28:38
Speaker 1: And then as the good girl whenever you feel judged. So that's that's probably I should have said that earlier. What tempts me more than anything to judge is when I feel judged, I feel judged and become judging. It's just like this chain reaction because you're right, I am the good girl, and everybody needs to know that I'm doing it all right, And if you're gonna if you're gonna contend with that, well then I might have some things to say about you in my courtroom, right, right, but right is adjourned. Right, We don't need to spend any more time in there because we miss grace. Right, Yeah, Like I mean, I think that's a hard.

00:29:14
Speaker 3: Thing for us.

00:29:16
Speaker 2: Us Go girls, we good girls again my parts of speech, right, But it's hard for us because it's like, well I'm actually pretty good.

00:29:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, but there again are we are? We like go reverting back to the lines versus walking with Jesus right right right, Because the closer we get to Jesus, the more aware of our rights our flaws, you know, honestly, like the the more spiritually mature I've become. It's not as though I'm less aware of any cinema life, No, I'm more aware. It's just like I want to be perfect and I don't want there to ever be an exposing of imperfection. And so but as I walk with the Lord, those things that I do, the ways, you know, like for now, if I low up at my husband or my kids, I can spend some serious time in.

00:30:04
Speaker 3: Just oh, I.

00:30:06
Speaker 1: How can I be this way after all these years? Those are my those are my old ways. I want to be healed. I want to be and and but that just leads me back to Look, I need mercy. Mercy is not receiving the judgment that I do deserve, and so implied in needing mercy is that I have I'm wrong, that I have wronged, that I am wrong. So implied in that is I by saying I need mercy. There's a humility in that. And that leads me back to Jesus and back to that cross where he spread his arms wide on that cross. Not because he was, you know, too weak. Some people thought he was too weak to come down from that cross, but no, he was too merciful. And so I just go back and I picture him with those arms wide open because he wanted to receive me. And that's that's the beautiful story that I'm part of. So yeah, I don't want to be this good girl who does it in mercy.

00:31:08
Speaker 2: I want it right right. That's like the Pharisees. That's that's absolutely yeah. I was a fantastic Pharisee.

00:31:16
Speaker 3: I know I was.

00:31:17
Speaker 2: But but to what you said about the closer you walk with the Lord, the more you see your sin. We my husband and I were marriage counseling for a long time and one of the times the counselor set us free because there were, you know, seasons where it's like, yeah, you've kind of gone as far as you right now, He said to us.

00:31:35
Speaker 3: We were like, well, how.

00:31:35
Speaker 2: Are we going to know, like when we've arrived, how we can know we're doing it right? And he's like, well, you'll know you've matured when your own sin bothers you more than the sin of your spouse. And so that has been like just you know, key, because I think to go back to judgment right, like he had had a whole army of judges, and inside my head, I mean, I think my husband probably was the recipient of most of my judgment for at least the first decade of marriage, like, you didn't do this right, You didn't do this right, You didn't like I can't believe you would do that. You can do that, and you know, and of course you know, I let myself off free for all those things, but I kept a big scorecard for him. And so yeah, I mean that that was the stop me in my tracks moment for like, Okay, no, no, I can't.

00:32:29
Speaker 1: That's hypocrisy, isn't it. It's judging somebody for the very things that I do. And I mean, can I really say, you know, I'll get at him for being messy or right not being on time, But can I really say that I'm not messy and that I'm late Noah, and so that that is hypocrisy. And it's also like the judging of the superficiality. That's another thing that we're warned against. Are we, you know, are we just judging? Are we assuming that we know somebody's heart right based on and the superficial thing that we see, Like we're so quick to judge their motives and their you know, like that they weren't thinking of us or I'm chugging husbands. But and do we really know as much as we think we know about people and the ways that we you know, when we're holding court. Actually, while I was writing the book, you know, I told you I was so just undone by my temptation to judge or to feel judged, And and the Lord really prompted a lot of things that I need to go back and think through and deal with a lot of situations, you know, as I was studying and writing. And one of them was a friendship that I had had with a woman. Her name is Renee. We'd been dear friends when our kids were little, and then probably about that ten or fifteen years ago, I had invited her to be on my prayer team, because I go out and speak and I have people praying for me, and she didn't. She didn't respond, and so she you know, she wasn't going to be on the team. And in my heart, I'm thinking, like what, like I thought we were friends, you know, like apparently apparently not. And then I started doing that courtroom thing. I'm like, I know why, I know why. I know why she doesn't want to be it because in her heart and mine, she is thinking, who does Shannon think she is? Speaking? Writing? You know, who does she think she is? She knows me, she knows like I'm just an average girl, Like who does she thinks she is? And so then I started thinking like I don't know if we're really that great of friends, and I just like I just pulled back. And then I just pulled back a little more and life got busy, and I look like many many times I've gone back to that in my mind of like her not choosing to be on that prayer team and judging what I thought I knew. I thought I knew what she was saying and thinking, and I was convicted. I was like, oh, I never even gave her a chance to defend her that hot or idea like right to respond to it. And so I did a very hard thing, and I sent her message and I said, I need to apologize. I have judged your heart and your motives, and you know, back when I asked you to be on that prayer team, I've assumed that this is what you were thinking and saying. And I just confess that to you, and I said, you can you can respond if you want. You don't have to. It is so far in the past, but I just know the Lord has convicted my heart of this. Well, Heather, She texted me back within like thirty seconds. Okay, Shannon, Oh my goodness, I am so glad you reach out because I have never ever, once in my heart judged like you that way. I think it's great what you're doing. I've never had one negative thought about it. And I'm so glad you asked me, because no, that is not what I was thinking. She goes, I thought I was on the prayer team. Happened? Was I just you know, I don't maybe I missed an email or something, And oh my goodness, I started crying. And I picked up the phone and called her and we had this amazing conversation where it was like, I am so sorry that I judged you, like judged you know, the superficish. I judged her heart, right, I didn't know those things. I didn't know you were thinking those things. And she was just like, it's okay. I'm just glad we could talk about it, and like we've kind of you know, the Lord has re uh just given us this, this refresh on our friendship. And she and her husband were both empty nesters. They came and stayed for us with us for a weekend, and it's just and I'm so happy about that. But I'm also like, just I have this sadness of like, how many things have I missed because of the judgment and the contempt that I hold my heart for other people, including my husband? Right, my kids are any anyone? And so man, I just I want to be free of that. Yeah, and she didn't.

00:36:46
Speaker 2: I mean, what a great story, because I think anyone who at the beginning of this episode, if they stuck around after deciding they weren't judgy, hearing.

00:36:55
Speaker 1: That story, you're like, oh, oh.

00:36:58
Speaker 2: I've assigned motives. I didn't consider that judge.

00:37:02
Speaker 3: Oh but yes, you're right. That is just another way to say it.

00:37:05
Speaker 1: Isn't it.

00:37:06
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, that's powerful.

00:37:09
Speaker 2: Well, he as we wrap up here today, tell us about kind of judge Like you said a little bit like we kind of go through some Bible stories, but just like what's your heart for this book and like who needs to read it?

00:37:20
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, we are looking at finding mercy for myself and for other people. So that's really like you brought up that harsh judgment that we have ourselves, and we find both of those in the story, both the overarching story of the Bible. But I think these six stories that we look at, there's three from the Old Testament and three from the New Testament and both and all of them have judgment and mercy woven through them. But with each story, we've got a different lens where we're kind of looking at this from a different angle. And I do I just think stories package up such good truth in a way that accesses our hearts versus just the right and wrong, because I think, you know, when we're being kind of judgy, we just want to know those lines and you know, like just get me on the right side of the line. But these stories don't allow that sort of response, you know, they're they kind of mess with their hearts and and that's really I think helpful for us. So yeah, so the the characters that I looked at or the Bible stories were the Flood Noah and then Rahab, Jonah, the Simon, the Pharisee, and then the blind Man and then the Thief on the Cross. So they're beautiful stories. I enjoyed it so much writing this book, and I mean every chapter I was just undone by. But yeah, I'd love for you to pick up a copy. And we've got a leader's guide. We have different resources for you. There's a kind of judgy quiz if you're.

00:38:50
Speaker 3: You know every.

00:38:54
Speaker 1: Quiz, Yeah, well you can. We can maybe give a direct link, but it's at my site, Shannon Papkin at Edward slash Judgie. Okay, you can find all this stuff, but yeah, take the quiz. And then once you take the quiz, you have this little heart check that I'll send you that you can keep on your phone or print out, and it really will get at some of those heart level questions that we all need to be processing. I love that.

00:39:16
Speaker 2: Well, and your book is it's out this week, so you go grab one at Amazon.

00:39:21
Speaker 3: I haven't gotten to read this one.

00:39:22
Speaker 2: Yet, which I normally like to read before the interviews, but I'm just going to tell you listeners that I endorse anything by Shannon Popkin.

00:39:30
Speaker 3: It's all good.

00:39:31
Speaker 2: So she's written a bath control in comparison to and it's all good. So I know that this is gonna be a great resource. So Shannon, thank you for being on.

00:39:42
Speaker 3: The show today.

00:39:42
Speaker 2: It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me, and thank you for watching or listening. I hope something today has helped you stop comparing and start living by body Compared to podcasts Tractic part of the Life Audio Podcast Network. For more great Christian podcast what a Life Audio dot com? Don't you go to s