Adventure Cycling Across Rwanda

Jerry Kopack [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Bike Life, a podcast from the Warmshowers Foundation. Here, we celebrate our global community of touring cyclists and hosts who make life on the road unforgettable. Through stories, insights, and share experiences, we explore the connections that fuel every journey. Whether you're pedaling across countries or welcoming travelers into your home, you're part of a movement rooted in generosity and adventure. Discover more and join the community at warmshowers.org. Now, let's hit the road together. Hey, everyone. This is Jerry Kopack, the host of Bike Life coming to you from the Rocky Mountains of Breckenridge, Colorado.

Jerry Kopack [00:00:46]:
Have you ever thought about cycle touring in Rwanda? If not, well, maybe you should. And today's guest is gonna tell us why. After thirty years, Bruno Pilman quit his job to start a bicycle tour company there. He's gonna share some of the hidden gems of this incredible country. Hey, Bruno. Welcome to bike life.

Bruno Peelman [00:01:06]:
Hello. Good afternoon.

Jerry Kopack [00:01:09]:
So where am I finding you today?

Bruno Peelman [00:01:14]:
Well, actually, I'm in Belgium. So I, I started a business like you just, told, but, I'm coordinating everything from Belgium right now. So sometimes I go to there, but, for the moment, I'm in Belgium.

Jerry Kopack [00:01:28]:
Got it. Now I have to tell you, I love learning about new places to cycle. And as you know, bicycle touring has really exploded in the past probably four or five years. Places like United States, South America, Europe, and even Southeast Asia have all been really popular destinations. Why haven't I heard about Rwanda?

Bruno Peelman [00:01:50]:
Well, actually, Rwanda is really paralyzed for cyclists. It's, one of the most the cycling is one of the most popular sports in Rwanda. Roads are very good even for road biking, and also gravel biking is, great. It's called the land of the thousand hills. So we'd always go up and down, but you see a lot of cycling tours, a lot of people cycling, locals, but also many tourists, coming, to cycle because it's a because it's a safe country, actually, a very beautiful country.

Jerry Kopack [00:02:24]:
Now curious. How did you find your way to to Rwanda?

Bruno Peelman [00:02:31]:
Well, I have a history with the country because thirty years ago or even more, I was, a relief coordinator for the Red Cross, the International Red Cross. So before the genocide of nineteen ninety four, you've heard about that, of course. I was in Rwanda helping refugees coming from Burundi. It has nothing to do with the genocide after after that that took place afterwards. But I was there for the Red Cross, and I worked there for a few, months. Then I got back just before the genocide, and then I started a family, had children, and had a regular life in Belgium, in Brussels. But then recently, my daughter who was who is studying at university, she went to Rwanda for her thesis, and she did some fieldwork as a bioengineer. And I decided to visit her, and then together, because she likes cycling as well, we decided to do a nice very nice tour, and that's called the Congo Nile Trail.

Bruno Peelman [00:03:34]:
So that's why

Jerry Kopack [00:03:34]:
I got back in Rwanda. Interesting. I definitely wanna talk about the Congo Nile Trail in a minute. But when people think about Africa, they think about the wildlife, of course. Now I had the opportunity several years ago to cycle through places like Zimbabwe, Madagascar, and Botswana, And part of the excitement for me was just seeing the wildlife. And one time, I actually had the opportunity to talk to a local woman in Botswana, and she made this comment stating that there are too many elephants in Botswana, which I thought was kind of interesting because I had just gotten there. But turns out she's right. There are indeed a lot of elephants in Botswana.

Jerry Kopack [00:04:12]:
What kind of animals are common in Rwanda?

Bruno Peelman [00:04:15]:
Well, if you go cycling, you will not see too much of wildlife just cycling, around the road. Maybe certain parts where you have the part of the rainforest, which is the last day of the Comenal Trail that I did, you can see monkeys. Of course, you can go and visit gorillas, in the north of the country, but that's, first of all, it's very expensive. And secondly, you don't do that by bike. You have to sign in and go with a guide, and, you'll go tracking and walking to see those gorillas. And then you have, safari tours in Akagera Park, which is in another part of the country. But also there, it's not common to cycle in those parks. You mostly go by four by four.

Bruno Peelman [00:05:00]:
So wildlife, because it's very very pop the population is very big in Rwanda, so you see people everywhere. So you won't see too much of the remote, wildlife, in the in the on the roads. Just, there's one part, at the end of the Congo Natria, you you can see monkeys.

Jerry Kopack [00:05:23]:
Got it. Okay. I'm glad that you shared that it's not okay to cycle through the national parks where the wildlife is because I thought that that would not be a big thing. It's like, hey. There's a national park and the national parks in The United States. You can cycle through. Turns out, it doesn't work like that in places like Botswana, and it sounds like in Rwanda either. It sounds like maybe too dangerous.

Jerry Kopack [00:05:42]:
Right?

Bruno Peelman [00:05:43]:
Yeah. Of course. You have lions. You have little leopards and, I think rhinoceros and all those animals who can be dangerous. So, it's better to do that by car, definitely.

Jerry Kopack [00:05:56]:
Fair enough. Good, good locals tip there. Thank you. Curious. You said you, you you quit your job after, I don't know, thirty years. What were you doing?

Bruno Peelman [00:06:04]:
Well, I was a communication expert. I was working in an insurance company, so I did that for many years, internal, external communication. I organized events. I set up intranets. I was, doing all kind of stuff for for for our employees and also press relations. And, yeah, events was a big part. And at a certain point, I had enough of my job, and then a lot of things were changing. We had we had a takeover, a lot of consultants coming in, a lot of corporate fluffy language coming in.

Bruno Peelman [00:06:41]:
And then I did that, trail with my daughter and said, hey. Maybe I should change my life and try to combine two of my passions. One is cycling. The other one is organizing events. And, actually, when you organize in a country like Rwanda, it's like a big event. So, I combine those two and decided to quit my job and started my own company. And now I offer the Congo Nile Trail as a a package for people who want to travel, by bike on an adventurous way.

Jerry Kopack [00:07:17]:
So talk to me about the Congo Nile Trail. Do you know when it was established, and and how long is it?

Bruno Peelman [00:07:27]:
Well, fifteen years ago, the official tourism board of Rwanda decided to make a trail along the Kivu Lake. It is about, 250 kilometers long. You can cycle it. You can also walk the trail. And along the trail, you have sometimes guest houses, or you take your tent to cycle on your bike or when you walk the trail. And then most of the time, it's best to do it with a guide because, sign signing is the the post signposts are not, very well. And so they tried to to try to promote tourism in that region of the country because a lot of people go to Rwanda to see the gorillas because it's one of the unique experiences. But only the gorillas and only the Akagera Park is a bit limited, and they wanted to, open up, another region for tourism.

Bruno Peelman [00:08:21]:
And that's why they launched, that Combinado Trail, which is in Rwanda despite the name for just to make sure that everybody, understands it.

Jerry Kopack [00:08:34]:
Got it. And so let's talk about your business then. So do you offer supported, unsupported tours? How does that work?

Bruno Peelman [00:08:45]:
Well, it is a supported tour with a local guide. Most of the time, I organize everything from Belgium. I have all good contacts in Rwanda with bike shop, with guides, with transport company. And the thing was, when I prepared my trip with my daughter, it was in October 2024, I had a lot of trouble finding out, is it a good guest house? How do I get there? Where can I find a bike? And it's not like a trip in Europe where you go and, cycle in the Alps and and and you book online. Everything is is is ready for you. So it took me a while to get everything ready. I was there. I did a trip with a with a great guy with a great guide.

Bruno Peelman [00:09:32]:
And, then afterwards, I saw the potential. I said, if I could offer this as a package for people who don't have the time to figure out all the details themselves, who are willing to to do an adventure because it's not just cycling. I mean, it's more like an adventure. You don't, it's off road, and and sometimes you have to cross the river, and then the bridge in the rainy season might be done. So and then you have locals that help you to cross the the the bridge. So it's it's really an adventure more than just cycling doing kilometers. So, the the the country is very crowded. So everywhere you see people, when you pass by school, the children come out, and they cheer you on like you're riding the final of the world championship.

Bruno Peelman [00:10:20]:
And after those five days, I said, yeah. This is something when I see people around me, all those cycling clubs or, small groups of friends or even families, they want to to travel, organize a very, original, travel. Then then I can maybe offer something for them.

Jerry Kopack [00:10:40]:
I love that. So what about the, the the roads? You said there's some good paved roads. There's some dirt roads. What what is, what kind of roads does your tour follow?

Bruno Peelman [00:10:54]:
Yes. My road starts in Gisenyi. It's along the Kifu Lake, the north of the Kifu Lake. And then there was the bike shop. That's my partner in this. When you, would do this trip, I will arrange everything for logistics. So there will be somebody at the airport with a name code name board and with your name on, Jerry. Okay.

Bruno Peelman [00:11:18]:
They bring you to to the, the starting point. You stay in a nice hotel. And next day, the guide will be there with the with the bikes that you choose, via my website. So you if you want the e e mountain bike or a regular mountain bike, when you choose its size, everything, it's, online. And then you start cycling with the guide. And then, I take care of, the your luggage. You can real bypass cars, and probably a lot of listeners from from this podcast would travel by their own and take their luggage on their bike. But this, I offer to transport the the luggage from hotel to hotel because if you are with a group, and some of them are not used to travel, by bike, then it's it's it's easier.

Bruno Peelman [00:12:10]:
But if you want to take your your luggage on the bike, it's possible as well. And then the bike was the the guide will show you, day by day, the beautiful spots of the trail. It's off road. It's not so suitable for gravel bikes. Best is, really mountain bike. It goes up and down. It can be you have to be in good physical condition, but it's so rewarding when you come on the top of a hill, and then you have a nice view on the Kivu Lake. And then you have to make a descent, which can be a little bit technical.

Bruno Peelman [00:12:45]:
And then, again, you start again going up, sometimes very steep. There are some spots where I have to get off the bike, so it's not going very fast. You you will sit on a bike for five or six hours, but you won't do too many kilometers. So, around fifty, fifty five a day. That's a bit of maximum. And then you will arrive in a nice hotel along the lake. You jump into the lake. You do a little swim, and then you have a nice, dinner, with a nice view and a sunset, in your lodge or hotel or guest house.

Jerry Kopack [00:13:27]:
So I have to say, I've been watching your facial expressions as you've been telling me this story, and you clearly have a lot of passion for this country, for this roots, and for this this adventure. And I love seeing that kind of excitement and passion. How many days is, is your trip is your is your tour?

Bruno Peelman [00:13:47]:
The Combinale Trail, traditionally, you do it in five days. But I know that not everybody wants to do the five days. So in my concept, you can choose two, three, four, or five days. So and then after the three the two, three, or five days, you just take a taxi or a public transport to your next destination because because, of course, you don't go to Rwanda just for five days. You of you will obviously try to visit other spots in the country, but that's not in my offer, not in my concept. I will help you to to see to say, you have to go there and there, and I know a good tool there, but you have to look at yourself. The five days, they are all on my, I will I will take care of everything, all logistics, hotels. Everything is arranged to guide.

Bruno Peelman [00:14:39]:
Everything is paid. So, beforehand, you don't have to worry. But just at at lunchtime, in the local village, you buy some bananas and some local wraps, chapatis. It's all safe to eat. Not always, but you just watch what you can eat, and the guide will tell you there you can eat. And if needed, he will book a restaurant. So if somebody he knows, a local restaurant, and he call he gives a call. And, then you at noon, you arrive, and then you have a nice lunch, and then, you continue away to to your end destination.

Bruno Peelman [00:15:12]:
So, typically, five days, but can be shorter.

Jerry Kopack [00:15:15]:
Got it. And I noticed you, you said chapati. Right?

Bruno Peelman [00:15:19]:
Yeah. Chapati. It's like, yeah, pancake Yeah. Where you put in some beans or whatever or some, avocado. It's just, you you want you you will find every everywhere some places where you can eat something. So, it's it's not too many tourists. You won't see any biker on the on the trail because when I did it, we were almost alone in the hotels. We were almost alone on the on the trail.

Bruno Peelman [00:15:47]:
So it's not like it's a big tourist event. It's a bit of a hidden a hidden secret, among the the trails in Eastern Africa, and it's one of if you look at Lonely Planet, they say, yeah, it's one of the nicest trips in Africa to do for for backpackers. So, that's really something to do. But it's not like, you have to cross. You will see many people, that are passing by. So, you will be rather alone, but only locals will, will will you will see

Jerry Kopack [00:16:20]:
them. Good. I I I love that kind of sort of, I don't know, hidden gem sort of experience, like discovering new places. And this sounds like it is, it sounds like it hasn't really been discovered. Like, so many of the other main routes that people have cycled through. I think that's what's really appealing to a lot of people just have that adventure. So I brought up chapati because it's a word that I learned when cycling through India and it's it's a kind of, like a flatbread as well that people can dip or roll things with. And it's, I just didn't know that that word, existed in Rwanda, so that's interesting to me.

Bruno Peelman [00:16:54]:
Yeah. You can find them everywhere. So and that's nice when you're hungry after a two hour, two hour of biking, and you won't be in fancy restaurants, that are with western cuisine at noon. But in the evening, yes. Then you are in a good guesthouse and good lodges where, you can eat western style, and it's safe to eat. So no problem there.

Jerry Kopack [00:17:17]:
So talking about food here, what's, what is local cuisine, the local food of Rwanda look like?

Bruno Peelman [00:17:24]:
Well, you have a lot of rice with beans, with kind of spinach. And as you're along the lake, there's a lot of fish. You know, small small fishes that you would eat just the whole, fish like that or some, some some good fish fish from the lake. So, it's an enormous lake where you have, fishermen. You can see in the evening, you can see the fishermen, going out, and they sing with lights on the boat. It's kind of, also tourist attraction when you can go fishing with those, boatsmen if you want, but not when you're cycling. Because when you're cycling, you're dead in the evening, and then you just want to sit on a terrace and have a beer and then, continue and go to bed early.

Jerry Kopack [00:18:12]:
Oh, I love that.

Tahverlee [00:18:17]:
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Jerry Kopack [00:19:04]:
So you talked about your tours being five up to five days long, but there's opportunity to explore the rest of the country. And I know that places like, say, Kyrgyzstan or United States or India, people could spend a month or more there just because of the sheer size. How much time do you think you really need to immerse yourself in the Rwandan experience?

Bruno Peelman [00:19:28]:
Well, Rwanda itself is a small country. So Okay. You can do, you can go around the country in, I would say, two weeks, then you can almost do the whole country. Of course, depends what you if you want to visit real really nice things, you you need some more time. If you want to see a coffee plantation, tea plantation, you want to see the the chimpanzees in the Nyungwe Forest, if you want to go, out for a walk on on the volcanoes or see the gorillas, then, of course, you will need some more time. But let's say if you really want to do the the round of the country, you can do it in two weeks. And you have, if you take a gravel bike, you can do roads, a lot of roads as well. So, road cycling.

Bruno Peelman [00:20:16]:
So then you will do more kilometers than, the Congo Natural because Congo Natural is really off road, and it's, really, let's say, more difficult than than the the the rest of the country. So, I would say two weeks would be okay.

Jerry Kopack [00:20:31]:
Okay. So it's your route is more difficult than rest of the place in the country, Hass. So did you intend it to be a challenging physical in endurance event?

Bruno Peelman [00:20:41]:
Well, it is because that, because it's off road, and that makes it so so great. You don't see a car for five days almost, and then, that makes it so, original. And it isn't all all the guys. So if you look at a guide, a book for Rwanda, you will see that coming out here that you must do, must do, etcetera. But there are other places where you can really do nice cycling, and you have some a place more in the North. It's called the Twin Lakes, where you have two lakes that touch each other, and you can go cycling around the lake. And you can, do other places, but then sometimes you will have more, cars or trucks around you than the Comenade Trail.

Jerry Kopack [00:21:29]:
Have you cycled anyplace else besides there, just kind of exploring on your own, maybe branching out your tour into other places for other options?

Bruno Peelman [00:21:37]:
Well, that's the idea. If my concept is would work, then I could, open up, other destinations. But I always have to look for destinations where I have some added value because, like I said, Rwanda, it's not for for Europeans or Americans. You go there. You don't find your way. Then I have some I can explain them. I I have a good website. I have all the partners.

Bruno Peelman [00:22:02]:
I can show it to you to go to the Alps or the Pyrenees in in in Europe. Yeah. You can book yourself a hotel and, book a train, and that that's that's easy. So if I find other places, and you mentioned a few interesting countries, in a I can find nice trails, that I can brand, and offer to to small groups because purpose is to do it in small groups. Yeah. I offer it for four to 10 people. It's it's not for the, let's say, the backpacker who's traveling, by itself. Then, of course, they have their own bikes.

Bruno Peelman [00:22:43]:
They they they they take their GPX roads themselves, and they are not in a hurry, and they do everything themselves. But, it's really for small groups that, it could be interesting.

Jerry Kopack [00:22:56]:
Got it. And speaking of small groups and and other tourists throughout the country, I just did a quick check on our Warmshowers ebsite, and it looks like I'm seeing six Warmshowers host in Rwanda. I don't know if you had met any of them. Looks like there's three in the capital city, two in the Northwest, and one near a national park in the East. Do you cross paths with any of them or coordinate

Bruno Peelman [00:23:21]:
anything? Like this. I actually, I contacted one or two of them because when my daughter was, going to Rwanda, she said, I know I will I will need a bike there. How do I take my bag on the plane, but it is expensive? Maybe we can buy a bike locally. And then I sent a message to, two or three, of the Warmshowers, guests there, and I asked for some advice. And, they helped me and give me some tips. And, actually, Rwanda has a real, cycling culture. Even the UCI, the Federation of Cyclists, the the World Federation, has a center in the North Of Rwanda. It's called the, Africa Rising Cycling Center.

Bruno Peelman [00:24:10]:
So that's where they help young talents to become professional cyclists. So you see you will see, a lot of amateur or semi professional, cyclists with nice road bikes. And and, you know, the tour of Rwanda will take place end of, February. It's very, very well known as well. And so Africa, our run is very, keen in on cycling. So I did not met those, Warmshowers, but definitely, there's a cycling culture. And, important, in September, the world championship will take place for first time in Africa and will take place in, in Rwanda. That's a very big event for

Jerry Kopack [00:24:55]:
them. No way. That's incredible. I haven't read about that. What, what do you know about that event?

Bruno Peelman [00:25:01]:
Well, it will be, as I said, the first time in Africa. Africa, Rwanda invested a lot of money, I guess, to, buy this event, and bring it to to to Rwanda because they want to show themselves as a modern country. It is a modern country for African standards. But, of course, it's a little bit also sport washing, like, Saudi Arabia is doing. They want to show the best side of the country. What I can tell you also is that it's a bit tricky right now because, the political situation, in the neighboring country, in Congo is difficult. You know, that in Eastern Congo, there are some troubles in Goma, in, Bukavo with, militias that are supposed to be supported by Rwanda regime. So there are now voices.

Bruno Peelman [00:26:03]:
They are saying that maybe why should we go to an event, in Rwanda because Rwanda invaded, Congo with, with military force. So should we support a regime that attacks another country? So could be some issues for them in the next coming months. But if everything goes well, they will have a nice, event, in September September.

Jerry Kopack [00:26:32]:
Yeah. And and, hopefully, with any events like this, it's an opportunity to show not only the country, but the world how terrific and wonderful our country is, and here's why you should come and spend tourist dollars there and experience our local culture.

Bruno Peelman [00:26:46]:
That's why they do it, of course. And, that's also something I hope that, cycling around that will, will be a success. And then maybe more people will contact me to do the Combinado Trail, of course. But I have one weakness in my project. That's the name of the trail. It's because it's called Congo Nile Trail because it's has nothing to do with Congo because it is in Rwanda, like I said, in the beginning. But, it's because of the Congo Nile Divide, and that means that the water there, all water around Kivu Lake to the West goes to the Congo River and to the East goes to the Nile. It's a Congo Nile Divide.

Bruno Peelman [00:27:28]:
That's why they call it the Congo Nile Trail. But, of course, when people now hear Congo, Congo, they think, oh, will I be on in Congo territory, and there are some troubles in the East? I don't like to go there. But if that's, my small marketing issue. But I have to explain to people that it's, safe and that it's fully % Rwandan territory, and then they are reassured. But it is an issue. And, there could be some political, pressure, on Rwanda with that cycling championshipship, between today and September. So that might if UCI or other countries say we will boycott the world championship, that might be an issue.

Jerry Kopack [00:28:13]:
Oh, wow. I didn't think about that. I'm glad you brought up the the proximity and relationship with Congo because one of the questions I had when I was lining up this this conversation with you is, you know, I grew up in in the late eighties, early nineties, and I remember the civil war in Rwanda. And I'm just wondering, like, how has the country recovered? Is Rwanda itself, a safe place for people to travel?

Bruno Peelman [00:28:40]:
It is a safe place. It is one of the safest countries in Africa. It is everywhere. In every village, you see two policemen along the road. Sometimes they stop you. The cars, they stop the cars, and then, they don't ask for money or whatever, like, you know, there are sometimes other countries. But they're really there to to control, to they are always afraid for invasions from, other countries. But it is, they have a very strong army.

Bruno Peelman [00:29:11]:
They have a very strong leader, which is a bit of a, let's say, yeah, small dictator. But it is a, it is not a dictator that wants to enrich himself. He's doing good things for his country. Tourism has been developed. Roads are good. The mobile network is is very nice. It's very good. If you drive too fast in a country like Rwanda with your car, you have everywhere you have those mobile radars.

Bruno Peelman [00:29:46]:
And if you drive too fast, you receive an SMS with the amount you have to pay a hundred meters out of when you pass the the mobile radar. So, I mean, it is a a safe and abundant country, so, it's good. It's a safe place to travel. That, I can tell you. Of course, there are things to say about the political leadership and about what they are doing in, the East Of Congo. But for tourism, there's no problem.

Jerry Kopack [00:30:15]:
Okay. Well, that's that's good and reassuring. And it's funny that you mentioned the technology and the SMS, and just the actual mobile services there. And I find it interesting because in some of the places that I've traveled in Africa and in Asia, I found that the actual mobile networks are better than the networks I have in my hometown here in Colorado. And I think it's because there are countries like say United States, we had typical telephone lines. We would have telephones to our houses. In a country like say Rwanda, they probably skipped that whole technology there and they went straight to putting up mobile towers. And so with that, they actually have better connections and better reception in places.

Bruno Peelman [00:30:56]:
Exactly. And everybody has a smartphone. Yeah. And when you want to pay somebody, a shop or even a local driver or even the guy who carries your luggage in the airport, they don't have cash or money to give you back, and you pay by momo, that's mobile money system. So so even if you want to tip somebody, then you ask him for the mobile money code Momo code, and you send him, yeah, a dollar or whatever, and then, everybody pays that way. So it's incredible. They don't have never have changed. So even if you go and buy your local chapatis, you will probably pay with Momo because that's a good thing to to install in your on your mobile phone when you when you come into the country.

Jerry Kopack [00:31:42]:
So kind of like PayPal or Venmo or something like that, like we have in the West. Right?

Bruno Peelman [00:31:46]:
Yes. It's a bit more complicated. It's Okay. With with an SMS, and then you have to confirm and then send an SMS back. But it works very well, so, everybody has MOMO.

Jerry Kopack [00:32:00]:
MOMO?

Bruno Peelman [00:32:01]:
Momo. It's it's from mobile money.

Jerry Kopack [00:32:04]:
Ah, god. Of course.

Bruno Peelman [00:32:05]:
It's serious.

Jerry Kopack [00:32:06]:
Duh. That is pretty cool. Well, Bruno, what is one takeaway from our talk today why you feel people should come and visit Rwanda?

Bruno Peelman [00:32:17]:
Well, it's one of the most beautiful countries, of Africa. It's it has a good climate because it is, a height of 1,500 meters. I don't know how much it is in your metric system. So it is never too hot, not too cold, good climate. Even in the rainy season, you can in the morning, you can cycle, easily. And because of the stable, situation in the country, it's safe to travel. And cycling is so great there. Landscapes are so nice, so beautiful that, yeah, it will be something you will never forget if you do it.

Jerry Kopack [00:33:04]:
I love it. I am so glad we got a chance to talk today and learn about this fascinating country. How can our listeners connect with you and learn more about your cycling tours?

Bruno Peelman [00:33:14]:
Well, I made a website. It's one of our first things I had to do when I quit my job, and it's very easy. It's CongoNileTrail.com. And there you can find yeah. It's easy. I was I was surprised. It was still available, the the the domain. So, you can then have a look at, at, how the trip looks like.

Bruno Peelman [00:33:37]:
You can, sign up with a group and then choose how many days you want to cycle, and I will help you to, to travel, before and after if needed. But the most important thing is that you focus on that five day trip or a bit less. And, what I did was after the five days, I my wife came over. She's not a cyclist. She's not a cyclist. And then we continue to travel, the three of us with my daughter and my wife, and we visit the rest of the country. So if you have non cyclists in your group, let them come before or after, and then you visit the rest of the country. It's a fine, solution.

Jerry Kopack [00:34:16]:
Brilliant. I love that. Thank you. Alright, everyone. Thanks for listening to my conversation today with Bruno Pilman. If you enjoy our show, give us a like, a share in our social channels, or just tell your friends. These stories hopefully will inspire you to set off on your own bicycle adventure and maybe make the world feel a little bit smaller one pedal stroke at a time. My name is Jerry Kopack, and until next time, keep riding.

Jerry Kopack [00:34:41]:
Thanks for joining us on bike life. I'm Jerry Kopack, and I hope you enjoyed today's episode as much as we enjoyed sharing it with you. Please leave us a rating and review, or just tell your friends. This helps us reach more cyclists and hosts around the world. To learn more or become part of this amazing community, visit us at Warmshowers dot org or follow us on Instagram at warmshowers_org. If you'd like to be a guest on the show or have a question you'd like us to explore, email us at podcast@warmshowers.org.