Z'ha'dum | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, because you may not realize this, but Babylon 5 is a very rare thing in television. And one of the things that makes it rare is it's one that you get to watch for the first time twice. That's right. And you know what we get to do for the first time twice? Actually, frankly, I feel like we could do this for the first time every time we watch the show, Jeff. Look for messages. We do. Yep. And find something new every single time. And we're doing that this time around. We're looking for mirrors to society, hope that things can be better in the future. How do we better be better human beings to one another? I saw earlier today, Jeff, a prominent sci-fi showrunner producer guy at an award ceremony said this, sci-fi is not about the future. Sci-fi is about right now. And a lot of people were losing their crap on him. And I was actually like, no, he's right. Sci-fi is not about the future.

[2:01] It's actually about what's happening right now. Anyway, so there's that. Now, that being said, I would like to speak directly to the folks out there who are joining us. And this is your first watch through Babylon 5, or maybe you're not even watching through. You're just kind of hanging out with Jeff and I. Totally cool. Love it. You're welcome. Just not here. We have a whole other show called Babylon 5 for the first time that is completely spoiler free. Trust us. You want to go join us over there. So pause this one. I don't tell you. I keep saying stop and I need to say stop. I don't want you to stop. I just want you to pause, go back to the other one, and then come back here once you catch up with us. Trust us. It's better that way because that being said, for Jeff and I.

[2:43] Everything from any point in the franchise from any point in the timeline, in-universe, out-of-universe, canonical, extra-canonical, headcanon, or JMS canon, doesn't matter. It is all fair game for Jeff and I to talk about. We can, we will talk about it. So this is your one and only spoiler warning. My warning is sincere. Ignore it at your own peril. Brent, this is a landmark episode for us. We're closing out season three for the second time by watching an episode called Zaha Doom. Do you remember from the first time around what you predicted this episode was going to be about? I did. I said this is basically Sheridan trying to decide whether or not to go to Zaha Doom. We've heard it several times now. Yes, I know, I know, I know. We've heard it several times now. If you go to Zaha Doom, you will die. Don't go to Zaha Doom. Don't go to Zaha Doom. So what's going to happen? He's going to go. He's going to go to Zaha Doom. What happens when you put a sign in the window that says, please don't throw a brick through this window? You can get a brick through that window. Every time.

[3:43] Don't go to Zaha Doom. Don't go to Zaha Doom. Your Honor, the sign said, do not throw the brick. How could I not throw the brick? Right.

[3:51] But I said specifically here because Anna is back. So Anna is going to be telling John to go. Dillon is going to be saying no. Sheridan's going to wind up going because he's going to, he's going to reason it out that now that he has a piece of Kosh inside of him, Kosh will be with him when he goes and therefore he will be safe. Right. And he would have some sort of protection, which is opposite from when Kosh said, if you go to Zaladum, you will die. Like now he's going to be, or if you go to Zaladum, I won't be with you or something like that. And now that's not going to be, but I also said he'd probably get captured. And Jeff, here's where I get a little bit of credit for all of that. But although I do think a good portion of him was him trying to decide whether or not he was going to go. But I said this, he's going to be out of the game for a while.

[4:33] He was out of the game for a while. Yeah. Maybe not a long while, but a while. How about you, Jeff? What did you predict this episode was going to be about? I pretty much agreed with you. I was like, yeah, he's going to go to Zahadu. He's going to die. Like all these things are, you know, all this stuff's going to happen. My thought on his death, though, is it was going to be more of a metaphorical death. I actually referenced death of personality and all that stuff and how we've learned in this world there's other kind of deaths that can happen but i figured that like he'd die his metaphorical death he'd fall out of calm something like that you know captain captain where are you at and then all of a sudden like 40 shadow ships are gonna bust out of hyperspace around babylon five fade to black we'll see douglas netter's name and you and i'll be like what the just happened and that'll be how the episode ends probably yeah probably jeff that's what we predicted the first time around.

[5:22] You know what I'm really interested in, though? Probably the same thing I am. What we actually said the first time around. Yeah. You want to take a look at that? Yeah, let's do it. Let's take a look.

[5:31] Previously, on Babylon 5, for the first time, Zaha Doom. This episode to me felt very much like Best of Both Worlds Part 1. I felt like I got punched in the stomach. Like, literally, this episode took my emotions and went, feel this, whether you want to or not. Whether you believe this is a long-term death or not, doesn't matter. You're going to feel this. Really, this episode was some cool effects, but almost all talking. We've been specially trained to not only watch episodes that are all talking, but to deeply appreciate episodes that are all talking. Do we really know what the Shadow's motivations are? All we know is what they just told us. Exactly, which could be total horseback. Could be total garbage. They actually have some benevolent sides to them. That actually, I think, makes them a much tougher and a much more scary villain than just all-powerful evil. How they portray the Vorlons, are their means cool? Like genetic manipulation, introducing religion and tweaking society, is that okay? There's no binary. There's not a good guy, there's not a bad guy. There are people with motivation. No one on Babylon 5 is what they seem. Presuming that what they said was true, that also includes the shadows.

[6:56] I got questions about Sheridan's motivations. He says that we saw this future. So in his own mind, he decides when I was there, she told me not to go to Zaha Doom. So I probably didn't go to Zaha Doom. So if I do go to Zaha Doom, I can subvert the whole thing and change it all. There are a lot of wild, wild leaps in logic. The rules of time travel are always the same. As bad as it is, you still got to let it happen otherwise the nazis take over in revelations we learned about anna i never got to say goodbye he said goodbye to delen he looked in the camera and he said i love you goodbye i thought that was beautiful so sheridan jumps he listens to kosh and then i was like you know who else jumped and then came out different and changed that's gandalf and lord of the rings yeah you know why i feel like a moron do you remember the name of the place he was when he faced the balrog kazad doom and whatever this version is of sheridan in the future that we're seeing, is some resurrected form of Sheridan. And now, the conclusion. I feel like an idiot all the time, but apparently that's been a longstanding thing for me. The what? Feeling like an idiot. Oh, well. Sometimes you feel how you look, Jeff. Yeah, exactly. Oh, it took me a minute to get that.

[8:24] Oh, man, Jeff. Zaha Doomkada. I feel like we liked that episode. A little bit. Just a bit. A little bit. A little bit. I tell you, it's good in my memory. It's a thing I am curious. I said it in this, and it was in the back of my head thinking about it, but Sheridan's reasoning for going. I remember it's just like, that is a very thin, thin thread. I'll tell you, I feel like I remember just about everything in this episode. I really do. I'm interested to see the parts that I forgot or maybe the things I misremembered. I'm really interested to see the conversation between Justin and like that living room scene. Yeah. Um, I want to pay attention because the first time around, I, like I was watching it through a very skeptical eye.

[9:07] And now I don't need to, what he says is what I need to actually listen to and pay attention. So I'm, I'm eager to get into that. So let's do that. Jeff, why don't we get into it? Let's watch the episode. Hey, welcome everyone who's here. If this is your first time with us, welcome. Every episode is somebody's first. We're super glad you joined us for this one. What's going to happen is Brent and I are going to watch the episode right here with you. While we're watching it, we're going to talk about it, respond to things, react to things, postulate different things. If you're going to watch this on YouTube, well... Are watching this on YouTube, this is going to be edited, cut together and do a reaction style video. If you want to see the full video, no cuts, no edits, anything like that, you can get that on our Patreon page. Our Patreon page is patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening to us on an audio app of some sort, or maybe a video app, and you're only listening to the audio, well, guess what? You're going to hear the exact same thing because we're going to have those conversations in the middle of it. And we don't want you to miss out on that. Plus we'll have all the stuff on the back end so jeff let's get into a video watch it accessing file.

[10:16] As we kick off the episode brent jms has a thing to say before we even start, this episode right now as it has begun airing marks the first time in the 50 plus years of american history american television history that one person has single-handedly written an entire season of a series closest record is Terry nation who wrote the 13 episode first season of Blake seven, but that was only 13 episodes. He goes on to talking about that is an entire season of television. Is it not? It is, but this was 22 episodes. I think at the time season is better than your season. I think at the time this was what constituted a full season. Sure. My favorite part is what he goes on to say. I have no plans to do this in the 40s.

[11:05] We shall see you know when you get into something like that you have your reasons for doing it have a phrase oh what is best is prologue i am really excited about signing on board the icarus next week john and i were supposed to spend some time i can't hear her i can't not hear the voice ruins of an ancient civilization that no one's ever even heard of before, the icarus they found something didn't they all those people are cgi awakened the shadows could not allow them to leave 139 do we know yet that's IPX yeah we do my wife, And here you sit, not a scratchy. You must be Delenn. You can just see the, like, stink Delenn. John's wife. Wow. John's wife. Do you hear that? John's wife. But he had a couple different stories around Melissa Gilbert and how she got cast as Anna. Okay. So, per The Lurker's Guide, when this aired, there was a scheduling issue with the original actress. In the scripts of J. Michael Straczynski I have here on my desk, thank you to Andrew for these, he says that he wasn't sure if he wanted to. I'll just note, I don't have those on my desk. Yeah, you don't. Just leave that out there. People can do as they want with that information.

[12:20] Sorry, I'm sorry. I keep cutting you off. Go ahead. That's right. But he said that he wasn't sure that he wanted to use the OG actress for this one. Why? Didn't say why. Just wasn't sure he wanted to use her again. Because, yeah. I can see why. Yeah, I mean. You did great. We never saw her and Bruce together on screen. Nope. Who knows what that could have been like. I just know that she makes a good video dating VHS tape. Okay. That's what I mean. That's all we knew of her. So back at the, uh, box light in her home, Melissa saw the script on Bruce's table and said that she wanted to do the role. Bruce called JMS. And here we are either way. JMS considered redoing the scene and revelations like actually in the episode, George Lucas style. Exactly. Like we're going to, we're going to go back and we're going to put Hayden Christensen as ghost Anakin at the end of return of the Jedi. It's always been this way. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't mind that. Honestly. Yeah. Just, you know, the other lady still gets all her money. That's fine. Yeah. But yeah, I don't, I don't know what sag rules do for stuff like that, but whatever. Yeah. I don't know. But I thought it was an interesting story and so fascinating how he's got multiple stories himself. So I said the other day, well, of course she, she got the role real easy. The wheels were greased and that's still true.

[13:37] Like, she saw the script, she read it, she wanted to do it. Fine. Also, that made it a real easy get. Yeah. You know? Also, villains are the best parts to play. So fun. You know? He's horrified.

[13:51] God. What are you doing here? What are you doing here? After five years, that's the best that you can do. Go under the circumstances, I understand. Oh, my gosh. It's like, was she talking about Delenn or about what he said? No, it's after five years, that's the best you could do. It's all right, John. Let her go. You can talk to her later. Dude, she is talking to him like a wife. I thought you were dead. She didn't tell you. Well, that is interesting.

[14:21] I'm sorry that I couldn't tell you myself. I like the plate of oranges over there. He loves his oranges. She's wearing an outfit like Lita was wearing when she came back, like with the little neck thing and then a break in it. In Klingon terms, we call it a boob window. A boob window. We're together again. I know what you're thinking. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. How can you be sure if it's really me? I'll take whatever test you want. Ask me any question. I don't mind.

[14:48] I can do that. I kind of hate that they didn't stay together. All you have to do is come with me. Yeah. I feel like I have a personal stake in these two. Where else? To Zahadu. Where else? The one place you've been told not to go. Dig it. Yeah. I'm in. It's so fascinating, and you alluded to it. To this point, the first time around, the shadows are the bad guys. This is the first time it was introduced in a way, this episode, where it's like, oh, maybe they're not. There's more to it. but for her to just come in and be like the way she just kind of assumed i don't know like that he ever he would know what was up you know like i'm clearly from the shadows like but it's really me but clearly i'm from them and i can tell you what's up i think it's an interesting way for her to have approached him i'm i am struggling right now because i'm trying to see this isn't really anna it's shadows controlling her like it's her body they've tapped into her mind and her resources but not that we know anna at all but like something should still be off personal cadence maybe personality quirks whatever but man the way she came in like really that's all you can say after five years i'm his wife right back off beep uh-huh every piece of equipment i've got says that's your wife anna died at saw doom she looks pretty lively to me adam nimoy directed this episode. Yeah.

[16:10] Years before we finally accepted her death. He did a couple episodes. I had to force myself to start over to create a new life. Hey, second time's the first time. Have you talked to her yet? She was in my quarters when Anna showed up. Yeah, baby. Is there any Franklin's like, can you tell me more about that? I was gonna say, Franklin didn't even react to that. Like, Franklin should have been like, Captain Sheridan. Like, hey, so –.

[16:43] Yeah. Did you? Yeah. Now, maybe it's nothing, but it never hurts to run a few more tests. I do so. If this is a trick, I'm going to take it out of somebody's hide. I feel like after Ship of Tears, that should raise a big red flag for them. And that really is Anna. I have to know, Stephen. Yeah. Suzanne's right. See, that's the little thing in the nape of her neck. She's probably a gould. Is it? Don't know. You don't know. Unless she Jolinard into her. You and Kosh came to my quarters. You showed me images from Zahadum of Anna and the crew of the Icarus waking up the shadows. You gave me every reason to believe she was dead. Now, how could you do that when you didn't know for sure? Those who would not serve the shadows were killed. That we knew without question. We assumed she would not serve. Perhaps we were wrong. Anna would never work for those things. Then she was killed. I have no explanation. You have no explanation. Have you ever been in a spot where somebody is so upset, but it's also 100% an emotional response on their part and you understand the emotion behind it? So you kind of give them a pass. Give them some room. Yeah. You do. Like, well, you sit there and yell at me. I'll talk to you about this. But also, like, it takes a strong person to not take it personal. And honestly, an even stronger person to be like, okay, you need to slow your roll.

[18:04] You know what i mean like you're yelling at the wrong person here because john is in the wrong here very is not nope delin is not they they made a reasonable conclusion i'm naming this assumption they drew a reasonable conclusion and actually they were still right yeah because it really just let's just break it down they either worked for the shadows or they died.

[18:28] So she would never work for the shadows. So what does that mean, John? That means she would be dead, right? Is she dead? No. Well, there's only one option left. Yeah. Or there's something else that we didn't consider that we didn't know about. It's not like I kept it hidden from you. Yeah. Told you everything that I knew. Dylan, our Dylan says that Dylan in the show has a habit of taking accountability for the actions of others. A hundred percent agree. Might be left over from her guilt of the war from 10 years ago. She does carry guilt that I think doesn't belong to her, but yeah, she, I don't know if that's the why, but I do agree with her. She does have a habit of taking accountability that is actually not hers to take. And I don't think that's actually a good thing to do. I agree. That's it. God damn it. Dylan. I have always felt that you, you were holding out on me on a couple of things. I figured you had your reasons, but this, I mean, if you weren't sure if there was even a chance of her being alive, why the hell didn't you tell me? Because you would have gone to Zucca Doom after her. You couldn't allow that. You couldn't allow it.

[19:34] Yeah. Probably wasn't the best answer on her part. No, it wasn't. I cared for you. I let myself start to love you. Do you know what that means? Do you know how hard that was for me? I let you watch me sleep. All along, a little part of me was still in love with Anna. Even though she was gone, I had to fight that part off. Man. Every time I thought about you, About you. Good save there, John. Hey, you know what happens when you assume? You make a but. But. No, she wouldn't have.

[20:26] To make that choice okay if she was still alive and you knew would you have told me delin's answer is it depends on what she would have become no one goes there and leaves the same sheridan goes you deny me the right to make that choice who's right what's the right here neither and and john like sheridan and neither uh i think ultimately he is he's right because if i'm if i'm delin right what i think what i would expect ultimately is as soon as they started forming more of a meaningful relationship it should have been look john i need to tell you what actually happened to anna she got assuming that they actually knew what happened to her yeah yeah which i have to assume they did andro and andro i have to andrew brings it up and i've read this somewhere else before but in the techno mage books kosh was in the zaha doom system recording everything that was happening with ipx oh really he knows exactly what happened to everybody on that on that ship it's not she doesn't get to conditionally decide what she's going to share and not share really in them forming a relationship this is this pretty serious betrayal i think but then you throw into the thing the whole we have to keep sharing it is paramount we keep sharing on alive Is it though? Well, we can argue that point And I still don't necessarily know why we Think that he's so paramount.

[21:53] Outside of a he's one of the ones that we learned in War Without End. But outside of that, I don't really know what information they have that would require. Because, again, I go back to what was it? Long Twilight Struggle or the one before that where Sheridan's jumping out of the thing. And Dylan looks, gosh, you know what's at stake. You know why he's so important and why we have to keep him. Go, right? It's that same thing here of it's really important that you don't. It's really important that you stay safe. If somebody is that important, if giving them this information might mean that they go do that, isn't there a bigger need that outweigh the needs of the many, I guess, way outweigh the need of this one to actually have that choice or to risk telling you that? To risk it, possibly. But I think what we know, we learn in this episode, and then we also learned in Comes the Inquisitor, is there's always going to be one to come behind. There's no one single person, which actually is pretty contrary to what happens when this is like says to Kosh, dude, you best whip it out because it's him.

[22:56] There's an incongruency there that's interesting. Again, that's where I can only sit back and go. It had to not necessarily be something that John does as much as just who he is in his status as an until Zah, as one of the ones, which, frankly, I think is kind of weak. Same. I think it's kind of weak. But I also like Katarina's comment in our chat over here with our council chambers. Also, Dylan might just want him to not die. Yeah. Like, I really don't want you to die. And frankly, I don't know you or trust you enough right now. And I don't also wind it back. I just met you. I didn't know you well. I knew I had to keep you alive, but I didn't know you well enough to know.

[23:41] Right. Yeah. I just met you. And this is crazy. Yeah. Here's my number. So call me maybe. Oh my gosh. This is the thing. But I think that honestly, that little thing is a thing. Up until the point they started developing a romantic relationship, she can do whatever the heck she wants. Keep whatever she wants from him, make any decisions she wants. That's fine. She is a Vorlon-influenced and taught person. She's going to manipulate the things that happen around her. It's what the Minvari do. It's what the Vorlon do. 100%. The minute they started becoming romantically involved and connecting, she's over here being like, I'm going to tell you about my dad. I'm going to be vulnerable and tell you this stuff. Also, I kind of know what's going on with your wife over here, but I'm still going to. I mean, if she did, I guess. If she did. If she did. This is all under the, this is not what really happened with Delenn. I think the right answer in this case here from her, if you knew, would you have told me? I would have told you, if I knew, I would have told you once we became, as we were becoming serious. When I was set tied to Len, the great council, no, I'm not telling you anything. I'm looking at galactic stakes. I don't know that she should have told him as they were becoming romantic. There is a point in their relationship where...

[24:57] Where perhaps that needs to come to light, but I don't know that it's right as they become romantic. Not as, but before she's watching him sleep. Possibly. Possibly. And listen, we're going to move on with the episode, but I love the conversations happening. People talking about Sheridan and his protected status, shall we say. You know, but you and I know something about Sheridan that Dillon doesn't. How can you say that?

[25:19] Sheridan's got plot armor. I expect me to ever trust you again. It could be fine. Okay, does Sheridan know at this point that that's not Anna? If you believe nothing else. I don't think he does. I think he's questioning. Okay, I want to know at what point he figures it out. Please do that. And then I want to be on that side of it with him as he goes forward. Because this is not a Londo-Veer situation where he has to make her believe that he's pissed off at her. No, yeah. You know, like where Londo had to make Veer believe that they were going after Nathoth. Another drink. Londo, you've been like this ever since the diplomatic pouch arrived this morning. I will say, though, I do appreciate Delenn. not delen because she's delen but delen following the minbari vorlon way of things facing some consequences for that we saw a little bit of that when she was talking to jakar and was like hey we knew stuff that we didn't tell you about consequences and then this actual personal consequences because she was doing the minbari thing yeah which is the also thing don't forget to to go and confess to somebody that you're really close to and you have a good thing going with knowing that it could actually destroy the thing that you have going with that person that's a little hard to do. Yeah, but it's also super important to do. It's important. It's the right thing to do, but it's also really hard to do. And Dylan's still really new human.

[26:31] Lots of stuff. And she's trying to figure all that out. So I feel like we can give her a little bit of grace. Our council chambers is saying that, that Sheridan understood when he got the report from Franklin. Are we talking about the report he just got in med lab? And so he knows right now, or is there a report to come that I don't remember? I think there's a report to come. I think like he looks at it. I think I remember that scene. I'm giving them 13 seconds to answer. They did. Ben just did, which hasn't happened yet. Thank you, Ben. Yeah. All right. least you can do is tell me what's wrong oh look at man council chambers to the rescue over here dude i love you time and time again he's been promoted i've been offered a position in the royal court as an advisor to emperor cartagia in matters of planetary security, gold gold yep exactly gold gold gold gold gold.

[27:22] Computer moves all slow and dramatically. Those are their actual wedding photos. Love that. But Anna doesn't have implants. No, but she's got the markings. She's got ports on the back. She had them, and they line up with what Sanderson had. So they sucked them out. Okay. And so Franklin went to Sheridan with that. Yeah. We're to understand. In that little cut scene, Sheridan knows. Yeah, right now, he's looking at her. He knows she's shadow. I have ever been examined in such detail. I disagree with that, given the procedures you've been through. At least his report confirms that I am who I say I am. The thing is, she is who she says she is. And you've been on Zahadum all these years. No threats, no ultimatums, just an invitation to come and hear their side of the story. Nothing more. That's a lie. Why don't you go back there? They've got pie. I'm going to assume that's a lie. Because it's my home now. I'm doing important work. You'll understand when we get there. No. I'm not going anywhere until I get some answers. I want to know what happened to you and the crew of the Icarus when you landed on Zahadu. John. That's my condition. Just tell me that much. And you'll go with me to Zahadu? Maybe. Maybe. I'll go.

[28:34] As soon as we landed, we picked up an energy source. We were told to check it out. And that's where we found them. Who's this, Brent? Who is this? It's a reaper. Or a harbinger. I have assumed control, It's a very dramatic name But not a very descriptive one, Their actual name is 10,000 letters long I couldn't pronounce it if I tried Now I need you to take care of this for me No questions, no speculations No hunches or educated guesses And when I see you next If everything is said We'll talk about the weather.

[29:08] This is the thing. Go ahead. What now? All right. So to me, it is crystal clear on the second watch. His mission is simply to load the nukes. Yeah. And I think he's in here. He's got the whole plan. This all flew over my head the first time. Get all the Minbari off? Why? Are you just being a jerk to Delenn now? Like, what is that? Nope. I need everybody off the ship because I'm going to go get it. And I need nukes put onto it.

[29:31] But the other thing that stands out to me, this kind of recolors Garibaldi's response to him when he comes back as the messiah sheridan okay because it what we just watched and we'll see here and again is sheridan's like look man i know i know this isn't cool i.

[29:47] Need you to not say anything i need you to trust me on this it's all good garibaldi went out on a line for him took a big risk doing this and got bit in the ass for it uh-huh and then sheridan comes back and he's all look at me and lorian we're doing some cool stuff over here and garibaldi's like yeah i was i was literally in a prison like my mind was getting jacked uh-huh and and i all because i trusted you to this thing like come on man all right let me uh i want to re-watch this i didn't even realize that's what he was talking about in the moment like i was this is a thing that is only clear based on future knowledge yeah not knowing what's coming no way we could have known any of this no even when the white star drops the nukes maybe you could be like oh that's the thing he had garibaldi doing except we see garibaldi doing something else like flying out in the in the cruiser which leads you to which i which i think is a reasonable like some people might think it's this some people might think it's that and both are reasonable yeah you know what i mean um here's my question though outside of just having to keep the secret for us as the audience why sheridan being so cryptic about what he's saying and and not saying like he's he's speaking as if the room is bugged he doesn't have a door on his office right.

[31:04] For once, he's finally acknowledging that and like, maybe I should kind of be a little about this. A little circumspect about how I'm doing this here, right? It's kind of neat hearing him say this though. Knowing what it is and understanding Garibaldi looking at that going, son of a bitch. Like, really? Yeah. That's what you want? Okay. Okay. But right now, if you're a first time watcher and you don't know what that is, you're just you're trying to what it is. You're examining everything that happens, trying to figure out what that thing is. There's a thread that goes from Jakar saying, hey, look at these cool bombs to Sheridan using the cool bomb. And in the middle is this scene that if you're not specifically watching for this stuff, you're not going to get that connect. But some people were specifically watching for this and did. That's cool. Yeah. Katerina asks if maybe the shadows are there, listening, invisible. Super reasonable. He knows that the shadows are on Morden. He knows and is shadowed. So it's Dan to reason. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so he's on offensive mode at this point, which is kind of, I like offensive Sheridan here. First time watcher, Sheridan is planning something. Yeah, and he just gave Garibaldi a secret missing. Dude, he is.

[32:17] If you go to the Hadoum, you will die. Oh, it's a good thing they didn't throw that costume away. This is his transformational scene from John Sheridan to John Rambo. Or John Newcomb Sheridan. He is a man of resolve he is already on Zahadu he's there his mind is and he's very if I die I die that's where he is right now if I die I die, He is the arrow loosed from the bow. I heard a weather report from Earth. They've had a late winter, but it finally started snowing in New York. Well, it must be very pretty there this time of year. Yes, sir. Must be. Take care, Michael. John is saying goodbye right now. You too. Yep. And Garibaldi seems to know. Oh, there we go. Garibaldi knows he's going off, right? That's what that is.

[33:14] So he leaves. Yeah, Garibaldi's got the whole thing at this point. Yeah. Are you sure you can run this thing by yourself? I think so. I've watched them whenever we've gone out. Oh, this is why he needed them to get to it. So as long as we don't run into trouble, we should be fine. You're guaranteed safe passage. Well, then let's get this show on the road. Am I guaranteed safe passage or are you guaranteed safe passage? Hey, I got a question. You're a captain. You're a captain on board a ship. Do you give up your seat for your wife? Nope. When she comes on the bridge with you? Nope. No? Nope. Do you let her sit on your lap? Heck yeah. I'll let her sit wherever she wants. Hey, now this is a family-friendly show, bro. Just saying. Because even though I'm the captain of this ship, it still belongs to whomever. Like, I'm still serving. What report? There's a problem with Anna. And now he's cluing us as the viewer in.

[34:10] JMS, I'm tracking what you're doing, dude. Tracking what... You got me the first time. You're not going to get me this time. The entrance is up ahead. This is a big shuttle. Look at those tires. That's like 747 taking two people. Yeah, yeah. You know, no, no, no. Just get you a little private executive jets. Hey, do Shadows and Vorlons breathe the same atmosphere? Kosh has an atmosphere thing. Morden had to put on a breather when they went and killed him. I'll need your gun. John's got two guns. Right then he's like, oh yeah, that's not my wife. She'd know that I had another gun. They designed this part of the complex specifically for us. Us? No, not that door. This one. JMS points out that that doesn't mean anything. What doesn't mean anything? Not that door. A lot of people are like, well, what's behind the door? Is that supposed to be a thing? Was that a... Nope, they're just trying to show, like, there's a lot here, and Sheridan's being curious. There's nothing to it. Dude, he gets real close to her right there.

[35:12] I'm, uh... In his notes, JMS confirms right here that Justin is the man in between. What does that mean? Well, he is, uh, does it, does I get it in here? He's the middleman. He's the one that brokers between Sheridan and the shadows. The news Morden. Well, you can also look at it this way. He's the man in between Morden and Sheridan. Look where he's standing. He's literally the man in between. The man in between is looking for you, they said. I'm, uh, making some tea. It's chamomile, but I can make something else if you like. It helps me. Anna is on a different level. And by that, I mean lower than Justin Morden. I think it goes Justin Morden way down here as Anna. Because Anna's like Justin Morden. And then all of those pilots, one of which is Anna, they just happen to pluck her out for this thing. And it's not even Anna. Exactly. She's not even a human. I mean, a person, really. She's a program. Greetings program. Who decides that the workday is from nine to five instead of 11? You know what's cool about that? Dude bust in here, right? First question he asks. He has to ask it twice. Who are you?

[36:21] That's incredible. Who are you? That is such a great observation. First question he asks. And they don't even respond to it. Right. Who decides that the hemlines will be below the... And the answer, Justin, is the unions decided it would be 9 to 5. What if that future happened because I listened to your warning and didn't go to Zahadu? What if... What if this is your fault? That's what he's saying.

[36:48] One out of two ain't bad dude she's taking a serious raft of crap from him this episode to be with you, but you were right before this is about more than what i want so i'm going even though i know it's almost certainly a trap and headed off toward greener pastures okay we've already heard this part before so far it's all lining up there's all the first ones and they they left leaving but two did we know it was just two or was it just some we knew it was two we knew what did, So we knew it was two. They stayed behind. We were to help the other. Well, no, because I don't think we knew that they both stayed behind to help. I think it's two stayed behind. The Vorlon stayed behind to fight the shadows and protect. Vorlon stayed behind to help shepherd the younger races. The shadows stayed behind to make that hard for them and to cause chaos. That's what we heard. That's what we heard from Delenn way back when. Or the near. Literally up to that point, everything lines up. this is now it's the shadow version.

[37:52] You might call them they wanted to look after the younger races bring them around help them evolve into something better one of these was the vorlons the other was what you call the shadows the vor so just to point out the vorlons vilified the shadows in the reveal they're not vilifying vilifying the vorlons are like hey we both stuck around to try and help shepherd them okay but i'm telling you i don't believe that's why the like at this point as i'm watching the show i don't believe that's why i could believe that's why the vorlon stuck around i don't believe that's why the shadows stuck around oh yeah we didn't believe that this is all the first time around i still don't believe it didn't buy any of this yeah they want to release our potential not bottle it up it's really simple see okay bring two sides together that sounds like bs to me yeah hearing that they believe that strength comes from whatever they want to release it not bottle it up okay i I can sit here and tell you now, knowing what I know now, yes, that's their, that's, that's their culture. That's what they believe.

[38:54] Almost very Spartan like, right? If you're not strong, you die, right? The weak die, period. Done. Um, again, I'm, I'm listening to it as a, I'm, I'm watching the simultaneously as a guy who knows what's going on, but I'm also remembering my first response as well. And I still, it, that, that is, that does not justify what they're doing.

[39:17] To me okay according to my code yeah according to my well then it's not going to because you you think the shadows are the bad guys yeah so it's not going to align with your code and i think that's the part of the point is it's not supposed to yeah i think in western in the western world today this isn't how we do things i mean it is but we never say that it is how we do things i think that this um this totally made sense to me the first time around where it's like oh okay yeah, they're starting all of these wars with everyone against everyone, because then they're the only ones left are the strong and they will be, they will grow and evolve and they'll do the things. Well, I mean, it's, it's very Darwinian when you look at it that way. Survival of the fittest, right? Essentially. Right. Well, let's create the conflict that's going to weed out the, the others. Like I, I, again, sitting at this spot, I get it. I understand. But even listen, even listening to or hear. What it sounds like is a bully who is trying to justify their bad actions. It sounds like, I know somebody's going to think that I'm talking about somebody specific, but I'm really not. I'm speaking in the most general terms because I'm talking about all of history.

[40:25] A political leader, a military leader trying to justify their bad actions by saying, we're trying to make you strong. We're trying to, you know, it's a parent who abuses their kid under the guise of, I'm trying to make you stronger. That's the way it sounds to me. Even now, that's the way it still sounds to me. But I guess there's enough Star Trek in me that can respect that different people have different cultures in different ways and that that legit might be the way the shadows are thinking. So I think they don't, they're not a bully. They're the ones empowering the other bullies. Like they're, they're not fighting the Centauri-Drazi conflict. They're getting the Drazi to attack the Centauri and Centauri to attack that. Like they're starting the fights and starting it in a way where everyone feels justified in their fight. I think what it all boils down to is Justin used the term Lords of order. Yeah. Lords of chaos.

[41:21] Listen, and I get that. and i know that's where jms is going and and i understand what he is trying to say is neither are good exactly like and neither are necessarily bad like i i understand people hear me i understand that's what he's trying to say i still am having like and and no i don't i'm not going to sit here and say that manipulating anybody is a good thing but justin even just said it the vorlons are like your parents they want to see you like am i wrong in doing anything with my kids and trying to teach them how to be better people and and if you're doing that when they're in their 20s 30s and 40s and you're still treating them like they're seven or eight i think that's what justin is saying they're like your parents parenting you now not appropriately you never stop parenting your kids right but i was gonna say like uh yeah yeah i don't know my mom tried something on me the other the day i'm also enough of a grown-up to be like okay mom stop yeah i don't think it was ever easy, but you can't let, Get in the way of the dream. Commander, I'm picking up the disturbance. What is the dream? Right.

[42:29] On Lurker's Guide, we kind of got to the end of this a little bit, but because we're in the middle of the conversation, I'm going to bring it up now. But somebody said, the Vorlons and the Shadows don't seem to know who they really are or what they really want. JMS said, that's an extremely good and cogent analysis and you hit the theme right on the head. One will explore more in year four with the Vorlon Shadow Situation, and which was first hinted at in infection right in the first season the first episode that was shot sinclair says in the ultimate moment in that conflict you forgot the first rule of the fanatic when you become obsessed with the enemy you become the enemy yeah and that's exactly what's happening here with these two the vorlons and the shadows so to that okay as i want to now ask when did the because presumably let's just go with the good guys the vorlons what i call the good guys When did the Vorlons become obsessed with the shadows To where they became Was it a long time ago Or was it when they killed Kosh And they went back crazy I'm going to guess this was a while ago I'm going to guess two I would agree with you on that.

[43:34] Um, I also would agree with the analysis because I seem to remember this is what Sheridan comes up with later when we get into that in the next season is you guys have been fighting this so long. You forgot what you're actually doing. Like, this isn't like, like, Hey, so you started doing this to help improve the younger races. Okay, cool. It eventually stopped becoming about that. And just about proving that you're better than the other, or your way was better than the other. And it actually wasn't about the races anymore.

[44:00] That's when I would agree both were wrong. And I would, I'm always, I'm going to come down on that side. I still think the Vorlon way is better, but when it's not, and again, this goes back to Jeff, this is something I think, I don't know that we talk about this all the time, but I talk about this in other things. It's not necessarily what you do. It's why you do in almost every situation. We've talked about that here quite a bit. It's not what you do. It's why you do. You can go out and do this thing. Why are you doing it for the better? I true like, Hey, listen, I'm going to cause you to get in fights. I'm going to train you up. I'm going to help you. You're going to become bigger. You're going to become better. You're going to become stronger. And you're not going to believe the man you're going to turn into by the time I'm done with you. I'm doing this for you. As soon as I start doing it for me, now my motivations are wrong. I could be doing the exact same thing, but my motivations are wrong. And I can agree that that's where the Vorlons are wrong. In the shadows. I actually don't think that, like, it went even further. They're not doing the same thing. In the story, we hear that, like, 10,000 years ago, there was this really big war. And then a thousand years ago, there was a war like, what was the big break? What was happening then? I think the Vorlons were doing their thing. Yeah. Shadows were doing their thing. There was no Vorlon shadow war, but somewhere in those 9,000 years, it changed. And they're like, you suck. And the way you're doing this sucks. And we're going to beat you. And we all became.

[45:22] Play things we were caught in the middle can i can i amend what you're saying because i love what you're saying i just want to amend what you're saying it's not that they went you suck in the way you're doing it sucks as much as they went i'm doing it better than you are and i'm better than you yep you're right absolutely you know what i mean and that i that i will cop to that i will i will come to but i again i go back to the method through which they choose to do it i think the.

[45:46] The shadows method makes them inherently evil because they're not doing it to train. They're doing it – anyway, that's a whole different conversation. I also think the Vorlons are inherently evil. I don't think they're inherently evil. I think maybe they went bad. They lost their way. They lost their way, Ben, as he says over here. They lost their motivations. Their motivations got all screwed up, and that's where – that's when you go. Bye-bye. Location? All around us. Red alert. Red alert. I'm sorry, because we're in this conversation. Becky in her conversation says, I still don't agree that one version of authoritarianism being better. Obey is never a good demand. I 100% agree. When Kosh turns around and looks at Sheridan, he's like, oh, disobedient, petulant, obey, obey. That's not cool. That's, but that's also not order. That's not, that's, that's, that's, again, that's about you. That's about your way. That's not about teaching and helping. And again, that goes back to your motives, right? I see this a lot in circles that I run with, with, with things of, you know, a lot of times parents expect their kids to obey and obey now. And they say, delayed obedience is still disobedience. And I cannot disagree with that more. Delayed obedience is actually still obedience. That's why it's called obedience.

[47:02] Yeah. You know, but I think that's where I'm going to say it a little different way where it's not a spectrum of Vorlon's on this way, on this side, Shadows on this side. It's a circle and they're right next to each other. Just one is like, we're going to make you fight and we're going to tell you exactly what to do. And the spectrum is actually comes around. They're both horrible and evil and they completely stifle any real independent growth. There it is. There it is. We see this, we see it with the Minbari. As I was saying earlier, the Minbari, Delenn is doing exactly what a Vorlon would do. Not because it's who she is or who the Minbari are, but because of the way the Minbar, the Vorlon have manipulated them.

[47:41] They're both as evil as each other. It's just one is wrapped in wrapping paper. The other is wrapped in sandpaper. And Jeff, I think you bring up the perfect, perfect example of where the Vorlons really missed the mark. Because Mimbari society is based and really tries to play with the Vorlon mentality. Mentality yeah the minbaris consider themselves not one of the ancient races but they're certainly one of the older races they're not as young as the earth earthers are they are better they're more mature they are the way that we should all aspire to be and that's the way we we first viewed them when we first met them back in season one you and i had like hey we've other they're they're like they're like the okay here we go guys sorry they're they're like the vulcans and the vulcans are well but what happens in star trek when we really get to know the vulcans vulcans are messed up jacked up dudes you don't want to be like them in fact it's way better to just be human, and here what do we see about the mimbari the mimbari are not something to be emulated the mimbari are not a society that is advancing they're not a society that is they are actually.

[48:55] Stifled yeah they are as katerina says nothing more than obedient children that's all they ever are and then when they're left to their own right through the vorlon through through valen right Because he had the Vorlon with him. So the Vorlon through Valen gave them a structure to their society. And as soon as that society fell apart, they have no idea what to do. Yeah. Yeah. And what's great is we get to the end of the whole thing and Dylan and Sheridan are in that little, little shuttle flying away. And what do they say? It's our time to figure this out. It's our time. It's our time. Our time down here.

[49:28] All fighter squadrons launch, but do not approach until authorized to fire. Right now, the shadow ships here are the Gom Jabbar to Sheridan. Back on Zahadou, just waiting to prick if he messes up. I'm sorry, the Gamjabar from Dune? Sure. Six thousand years of recorded wars. We never would have come this far if we hadn't been at each other's throats, evolving our way up. See, he believes this. Yeah, he's all in. They've manipulated us so we'd respond favorably to them. At a genetic level, taking humans and adjusting them. I think it's the first time we hear that. They made telepaths! Telepaths! They made telepaths! No way! I know what he's talking about! I know what he's talking about! They created telepaths on 100 worlds to use as cannon fodder for the next war, but fortunately, our friends got there first, and with the help of the Psy Corps, made sure that they came out on our side.

[50:32] They told us that now? Yeah. They told us that now? How? Yeah, we... Yeah, we didn't have to wait for Byron. We didn't need Byron at all. We didn't need him at all. We had it right here. We knew that now. Are you kidding me? Tell me, Jeffrey Aiken, you tell me, look me in my eye. You tell me that you remembered and knew the Vorlons turned humans and created telepaths from this point here, not from when Byron said it. Oh yeah. Very much from here very much from here in fact i think we even talk in season four around them specifically being made as weapons like it was all part of the plan.

[51:21] I mean i understand where you're coming from though this episode is the first time we've ever heard the word zaha doom so i don't believe that i don't i i i would swear the first time we heard that the Vorlons created the telepaths and that they did it as weapons against the shadows, was when Lita and Byron were banging and did the weird thing and they had the vision and all of that happened. I would, I would swear on a stack of Bibles that that's, that that's when we found that out. Pretty sure we got it at this point. Well, of course we did. We just saw it. Yeah. It was on the screen. It was right there. Andrew says, I wish I was Brent. Then I could see this show for the first time the second time I watch it. Andrew, that's what Jeff says at the beginning of every single one of these episodes. This is the only show you could watch for the first time twice. Ugh.

[52:18] I need a minute jeff ben for a good minute i thought brent was just being sarcastic you can't i'm tapping my foot right i cannot believe it was this early yeah cannot believe it was this early and i think we'd even guessed a little bit at it we didn't like oh this is what happened but we think maybe but to have it i mean jeff this isn't even hinted at this this is laid bare open on the table. Here's what happened. Again, I remember when I watched this the first time, I didn't believe a word they were saying. Right. That's true. I thought it was all horse hockey, right? So I was certainly discounting it then. I told you all, I couldn't wait to get to the scene to see what, because I know they're speaking truth now. And oh my gosh.

[53:04] Everything depends on getting the other races to fight each other, to create conflict in order to promote growth and evolution. By getting them to cooperate, you are working against that goal. Okay. That is manipulation, is it not? I know we talk about the Vorlons and the evil Vorlons because they're manipulating everybody to follow their way and do their thing. Is this not also manipulation? No, I think she's saying exactly what it is. No, we've got to get them to fight each other. We've got to get them to get in wars with each other. We've got to manipulate them so they fight each other. Oh, the shadow. i thought you meant them manipulating john no no they're manipulating of course yes of course they're manipulating that's what they've always yeah because here's here's here's where my brain is right now is john about to basically become the villain of the story by setting off nukes here on the shadow homeworld oh because if the shadows aren't wrong i mean can we at least say the shadows are still wrong like the vorlons might be wrong but the shadows are definitely wrong too yeah they are both wrong absolutely okay yeah and the shadows are still evil yeah just like the vorlons yes i look in her eyes and the woman i love the woman i married not there isn't there.

[54:18] She would never go along with this. You're right. Just so. I like his approach here. When she came here five years ago, she was given a choice. The same choice that we're giving you. She said no. She made the mistake of choosing badly. You stuck her in one of those ships, didn't you? They don't see him reaching for his gun. A few months ago, we intercepted a ship full of people who were going to be merged with the shadow vessels. They had implants in the brainstem right back here. Scars in the back of her head are in exactly the same place. Our associates needed fresh bodies for the central processing units in their ships. Our associates. We pulled her out as soon as we found out who she was and who you are. But once you've been inside of one of those ships for a while, you're never quite whole again. But you do what you're told. That's a very Vorlon thing to say. You'll do what you're told you do what you're told obey obey well because again they're really only this far from each other on the spectrum and she'll obey and so will you he says you uh-oh.

[55:32] Apparently it takes four ppg shots to kill a shadow or he's just a shadow, pure justin's eyebrows and he says that's right yeah we missed about 20 minutes of some stuff right there is a shadow city.

[55:53] Thermal fusion system armed for detonation, like now that we got more white stars I can just turn one into a bomb John come back inside we can work this out but I can love you as well as she did that's That's pretty messed up. Right. Probably the wrong approach there, Anna. And I want you to know that I love you, Dylan. She looks like she's about to scream and bust up all the dilithium in the universe. He said now. He said now. Yeah, not in a second. Go. Now. Obey. Obey. Disobedient. Petulant. And you see, because Kosh is with him, he's not alone. He lives. Also because he has a thing. No, he dies. Sheridan dies. He does, but then he lives. Sheridan dies here.

[56:58] Sorry, Laura. Like something Nellie would do to her. We hardly knew you. They're leaving. I don't get it. Or the ultimate threat. That's, oh, because of her telepathic. I think so, yeah. It was even the weakness of the year 2260 and the war had paused suddenly and unexpectedly. Hold on. I'm going to start this over because I want to share a thing that'll color this a little bit for us. Andreas did two takes on this read and they used the first of the two. Took JMS about 15 minutes to write this. Just came out. Okay. Came to him word for word as he drifted to sleep one night. And Andreas always liked the quote. This is the thing that i want us to know as we go in when andreas died his wife played this speech at the end of the memorial video that had been put together at his funeral oh now i want to see that whole video so we want to i want us to listen to this is the lens of i want five end of season three but also like andreas consulis's life the war we fight is not against powers and.

[58:10] In despair, against this peril, we can never surrender. The future... I'm sorry, I hate to interrupt this. That, to me, looks like he intentionally got himself hooked up by those things. It is all around us, waiting in moments of transition to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain was that it? That was it it was always born in pain and then the episode dead I guess yeah, the edit on that must have been a little weird at least that's how ours ends okay what you thinking Jeff? I'm really thinking about that speech and like Andreas anyone dying and the story of our life being in moments of transition. There's a lot. That was a great closing monologue for the end of season three, the moments of transition. Story-wise, it makes sense. It shows the gravitas of what's going on, sets us up for the dark beginning to season four that we're about to head into. But I'm also like, that's us.

[59:27] I'm imagining right now being days away from a life-changing transition and knowing that it's coming. right? Someone in that position and what that has to do, like impact every cell of their body, right? Like my life is about to change. When in the scope of your life though, that's been your whole life.

[59:51] Transition after transition after transition and the moments are the biggest thing ever. And then you step back and look and it becomes just part of the story. And then when I apply that, Babylon 5, think of all of the transitions that we've experienced, right? Sinclair to Sheridan and Bari Dillon to hybrid Dillon. Yeah. Lucky, happy-go-lucky drunk Londo to the worst person in the entire game. So many of these transitions that were such big deals when they happened, but when we zoom out, it just gives us the entirety of this series. I think it'd be really easy for us to, oh my God, Nia just said a thing and it needs to come out. And some of us transition more than others. Some of us literally transition. And just imagine, I'm just going to put this out there. I cannot even imagine, but imagine knowing that you're about to go under, and when you wake up, everything's going to be different for you. I can't even, oh my God, what a thing. What a thing. It'd be really easy right now for you and I to start saying, going into the specifics, did we know about the telepath at this point? Let's talk about this. But really, I'm just stuck looking at the entirety of Babylon five and how like the car just encapsulated it with incredible words that popped out of JMS's mind in 15 minutes. And he just railed off just to perfection. That little JMS speaks thing changed the entire ending of this episode for me. What are you thinking?

[1:01:20] I'm thinking about something that they said, Morden said, actually said to Sheridan. I forget the exact words, but effectively he was like, hey, listen, you're the only thing stopping us. You're the danger to us. He said, what always happens every time we do this, we pop out of the ground, we kick over some anthills, someone always rises up.

[1:01:46] And unites the people tries. They attempt to, he's the first one to do it. Yeah. Well, he hasn't done it yet. He has though. That scene last week when Ivanova and Marcus are out there in the white star thinking this is it for them. And then the jump point opens and it's the drazi. It's the Minbari. It's like everybody. Okay. All right. I'll give you that. I'll give you that. I was thinking more of the ISA, which is still like a couple of years away from fully getting formed. But he says, but regardless, somebody is going to come up. They're going to unite the people. I actually got the feeling that people have united the people before, which is what pushes them back down and stops them. But when you unite the people, why is that? Why is it when people unite? Hey, world, listen to me right now. Why is it when people unite? Those that are just trying to kick over anthills lose. The bullies lose. The people trying to manipulate us lose. The people trying to get us to obey lose. Why is it that – hey, Jeff, C-level person, you, why is it folks like you are scared of the unions?

[1:02:55] What happens in this case? You unite the people and what stops? The bad things. The wars. The wars. The bullying. We stop fighting amongst ourselves. We stop the wars. We stop fighting amongst ourselves. The conflicts go, right? You also start allowing people to have their freedom to develop and to go as they see fit. You can have shared values, sure. You can say, when we're in this context and this is how we're going to act and these are the things we're going to behave. But outside of that, have at it, pal. Do your own thing. That is what defeats these people. And that's why they're scared of him. All they're asking him to do is to stop trying to unite the people.

[1:03:36] Stop trying to unite the people. What if, Jeff, hey, all you social media folks out there, what if instead of spending our social media time, our social media page, our social media... Currency, on reposting ways that that guy sucks, reposting ways about why our guy is amazing, reposting ways about why that person should be brought up on charges or whatever. What if we put our energy into doing the things that unite us as a people? Now, what does that look like? The thing is, I don't know. I don't know what that actually looks like in real life. One of those things I don't know that you really know what it looks like until you get into it and you start doing it. I'm not going to, I'm not going to give directions to that here on this little YouTube podcast thing. I don't know what it looks like. In a couple episodes, we're going to hear Sheridan say some of the greatest words that I've ever heard. And that when I suggested it happen in real life, people flipped the freak out at me.

[1:04:34] What if you just stopped participating in the madness? I'm not, I'm not buying into it anymore. I'm not buying into it. That's not my enemy, right? I'm not. I'm not, you guys can just keep going to this till you're blue in the face. I'm not buying into it. I'm prepared for the comments. I'm prepared for the feedback. It's okay. The danger of Sheridan was that he would unite the people. Jeff, what was the danger of Neo in the Matrix? Same. You get all of the people together. Yeah. It's fascinating. I think it is that way. We are designed, and this has been biologically tested. We are a communal species. We are meant to be with others. Yeah. And so when we are with others, we are stronger. Some people may call that community. Others may call it, I don't know, Jeremiah, for example, calls it the universe. Whatever it is, we're meant to come together. I think it's... Humans form communities. Exactly. It's so powerful. Now get the hell out of my galaxy. Yeah. Sorry. We're all about everybody, but you get out. But I think this is the thing.

[1:05:38] This is the true power of diversity, right? And we have, as a society, oversimplified diversity to a point that it's nothing anymore. It's a checkbox on some list at most. But real diversity is people, is this, people coming together for a common cause. When about, oh my God, the time that we record this has been six years ago. I ran for local public office. And when I did that- Tell them your campaign name. Tell her your slogan, your campaign slogan. It's so good. Jeff Aiken. It's why you lost. It's why you lost. Actually, I'll tell you why I lost in a minute, but this campaign slogan is great. Jeff Aiken is Aiken for my city. Aiken for my city. I had t-shirts, had everything. Of course you did. Yeah, of course you did. But when I went in, I was running against an incumbent. Not necessarily a popular incumbent, but just an incumbent. And I was asked in a couple spaces, why did I choose to run against him?

[1:06:42] And the way I answered that question, I was very clear from go. I'm not running against him. I'm running for my city. I remember one speech, and I actually wrote this out. It got published in our paper. And I loved it so much because there was a reporter who really had it in for me. And he called me after I put my thing into writing and sent it out. And he was just like, I just want to apologize. Like he totally did a mea culpa. It's like, oh, I guess I'm a jerk. And I'm like, yeah, you are a jerk. Paul, you just had, my website was Aiken4Change, the number four, Aiken4Change.something or other. So, yeah.

[1:07:19] See, it just happens. It's a very natural thing. It's why it went. But they said, why are you running? I'm like, I'm not running against him. I'm running for my city. Why would I run against someone who has chosen to stand up and sacrifice their time for this city that I love, for this community that I'm a part of? I think what he's done for us is fantastic. I have a different approach, and I want to be here to serve my city. I'm here for my city. It has nothing to do with him. And I lost very much because of that. We are programmed with the messaging of that guy's bad, this guy's good, so he's my guy. And nothing that my guy can say or do is ever wrong. But even if it is, it's less wrong than that. Or he's not perfect. What do you expect from him? I don't always like the things they say, but I do like his policies.

[1:08:14] Doing the right thing. That's my guy. Oh, but that guy over there, it doesn't matter what he says. He's wrong. All the time. And he's evil. All the time. Every time. All the time. And here's the secret. I'm guilty of that too, to some extent. We all do. literally how we're programmed. And I think like, this is the thing. If somebody is raising their hand, this is what I learned running for office. If someone raises their hand and runs for office, they're messed up. You don't want them running anything.

[1:08:40] And so it's very much, the people, all of the people are messed up. Care about the thing. Care about the thing. And in this case, what we see in Babylon 5, in this story, is Sheridan bringing the people together, not because his idea is better, not because the Vorlons are better than the shadows or anything like that, bringing them together because I want all of us to be safe and be able to do the stuff that we do. I want that for us. Yeah. He has a line that comes up, I think it's in season four later on, where he's like, it's easy to unite people against a common enemy. The real challenge is going to see if we can unite them for a common good. Yeah. And he's not able to. They have to introduce the conflict to get people to come together. Because that's the thing, right? Is give people a common enemy.

[1:09:33] Make a people group bad and give them the common enemy. And when that common enemy is gone, to keep them united, you got to give them a new common enemy. And thus we get the poem that you quote to us so often. Yeah, exactly. First they came for, and then they came for, and then there was no one. And I think the part of that too is that like what we talked about just a couple weeks ago, or even yesterday, like last week. It's all kind of runs together for me right now. Instead of being against something, defining yourself by what you aren't.

[1:10:03] Before something, define yourself by what you are. And you know, the thing is, is I've seen people try to run political campaigns like that. Yeah, it doesn't work. And it doesn't work. It doesn't work. They ultimately have to go negative. You know, there was, I mean, there was a whole movie that was based on that. I want to say it might've even been like Sandra Bullock or something where like, they were like a political advisor type person, like a campaign advisor. And the person was like, no, I'm going to, I'm not going negative. I'm not going negative. I'm not going negative. And they just reached a point where they're like, got to go negative. Yep. You know? Um, yeah, man. But what if we could just unite? Yeah. And not sit back and say, I told you so. And not, you know, not hear the things that one says and only apply it to one side and then take offense at that. But actually understand that applying it to the whole thing. Yeah. Applying it to not just both sides, but all of the sides. All of it. All of it. All 63 of them that are out there. Mm-hmm. Applying it to all of it. Wow. What a freaking show this is, Jeff. Mm-hmm. What a show. The thing is, we haven't even scratched the surface of what we could be diving into and talking about in this thing. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, Jeff, something that's different this time for me is I'm getting to watch this one with friends.

[1:11:21] I'm watching it with you. I'm watching it with all you folks on Council Chambers who are joining us live. Kind of metaphysically, I'm watching it with all of you on YouTube and Patreon who are watching this after the fact.

[1:11:33] Um it's amazing it it it it's a game changer for the show and it it gosh man and i still can't believe that they laid out the telepath thing right here oh my word word for word i'm probably gonna watch this another time and it's actually gonna have been even in an earlier episode to be honest with you jeff i gotta tell you the more i get to know you the more i find myself jealous of you why do what why oh there's so many reasons but the one thing i am not jealous of you about is the next thing that you have to do this is this is and i have no say in it all right send your hate mail this guy right here right to jeff jeff doesn't care at gmail.com um you my friend after this watch of this episode have to take this and somehow place this into a ranking of season three and not just where jeff thinks it should go but this has to be objectively correct 100 immutable and it has to be definitive for everyone of all time and space jeff you're placing this into our 100 completely accurate definitive ranking of season three of babylon five especially watching it for the second time our top five episodes but i don't even know that i need to read five i think i might just need to read three in fact that well i'll do the five just because there's ship of tears which is gonna sadly find its way out of the top five there's.

[1:13:02] Shadow dancing and the rock cried out war without end parts.

[1:13:05] One and two messages from earth points of return severed.

[1:13:08] Dreams the trilogy that works together as one unit jeff there's a lot of things you could do here right now and you're the one who gets to make the call you can even undo things that we've done in the past few weeks it's your call my friend what do you say i do love that we have like eight episodes in the top five right now i know.

[1:13:28] You know, I think in a real way, this is actually just part three to War Without End, so I can just – This one stands on its own. War Without End. Let's start there. Let's start with War Without End, which was the number one episode on the season from our first time viewing. We talked about it when we watched that episode, but while it has connections through the series, it's also kind of a closed loop with Babylon's squared story. And it's amazing. It's one, I think it's the only one so far that like I was literally swearing when it was done because it was so good and just amazing television. Also, you were very excited about you being right. Again. Yeah, I still, I'm still quite excited about that. Messages from Earth, Point of No Return, Severed Dreams. I don't know that there is a better trilogy that exists in television. So good. I mean, it's incredible. What I really.

[1:14:23] Really? I mean, you've got Best of Both Worlds 1, 2, and Family. Yeah, Family is one. And you're going to say this is better? Yeah, I am. You're not wrong. You're not wrong. You're not wrong. Sorry. Family's a great episode. It doesn't help the trilogy. No. It's actually a quadrilogy. I don't. That's not really. First Contact is part four of that series. Oh, yeah. There you go. Yeah. What I really like about the trilogy is that it ends. It clearly goes on, but there's a, and now, yay for us. There's some stuff coming. Well, it's an act one, act two, act three. There is a beginning, a middle, and an end. Yep.

[1:15:01] It's a complete story. Zahadoom ends, but it doesn't end. It ends literally with just like, hey, so it's done. Pop! Punches you right in the face. And you're just like, that's it? Oh my gosh, what's going to happen? I don't know. I need some sort of closure. I need some sort of something after this. And the thing that I know is it's a little while until we get that closure. I'm measuring right now two things, and that is just the incredible messaging that exists in this episode. There's also a piece of just the lore, how this takes things from back here and makes it make more sense. It's now paved the road for things that we know is coming in the future. Not just like, hey, we're hinting at it, but no, this is where we're going. There it is. Jeff, I have a question. Yes. As you're in this vein, okay, what I'm hearing you say is a little bit of, but this episode doesn't end. It's almost incomplete. Okay.

[1:15:58] Hear what you're saying. Take a little side road with me for a second. Okay. Of the original trilogy, and you could even say of the entire franchise, but specifically the original trilogy, what is the best of the Star Wars movies? Empire Strikes Back. Why? Because it doesn't have an ending. It leaves you wanting more. It doesn't end. New Hope has a definitive end, right? They received the medal. It was actually whatever. Ha ha ha. It was its own thing. Yeah. Right. Right. It wasn't intended to go on. It could. There was more story. But Return of the Jedi, we had the party at the Ewok village. Yep. At the end of Empire Strikes Back, all we see is Luke's getting his robot arm and they're looking out the window and craps happened. Right? Oh, yeah. We're on the same page here. So it's our end. We're on the same page here. I wasn't saying it doesn't have an ending as a negative. I'm just pointing out differences at this point, which is where I get to where I'm trying to weigh my recency bias on this. And I think I'm going to, I'm going to. It's hard folks. I'm sorry. You don't understand how hard it is not like to really fight against recency bias on stuff here. I'm going to pat myself on the back. Cause I think I did a good job with that on war without end. Yeah. Um, fighting that combining the trilogy did. And so weighing all of that together, it. Is pretty actually crystal clear to me where this episode goes. And just to reiterate, when y'all are pissed off and need to say something is.

[1:17:19] Jeffdon'tcareatall at gmailbadnerds.com. Brent, Zaha Doom is the number one episode of season three, without question. About 15 seconds ago, I posted something in the chat. Oh, look at that.

[1:17:33] Says number one. Yeah, 100%. I think I agree with you. Was this episode by itself better than even the entire trilogy of the Severed Dreams trilogy? We said a thing. That's a tough road. But what this episode has going for it is not just this one episode contained in and of itself. There is three seasons of content before it that feed into the – why was it that Sleeping in Light was such a phenomenal series finale? It literally culminated everything that happened before it. Everything. And this episode has culminated not only everything in the season, but really things that went even further back. And it punches you in the face right as it ends and leaves you going, I need more. I need more. I need more. I didn't get to the end of Severed Dreams and sit there and have to go, I need a moment to collect myself. Right. Where am I? Like it didn't leave me there. It doesn't make it worse. No. Again, we said this a couple times now. It's not that these are better. It's that they're ranked differently.

[1:18:38] I think that's an important and very, uh, wishy, washy, wibbly, wobbly distinction, but it's what I make less. We said a thing, Brent, in the recap that, uh, Dylan put together for us. That we played at the top of this, Jeff, send all hate emails to Jeff at aikenforchange.com. That was my, that was my campaign email address. It's all shut down now, but unless somebody. Yeah, so that's where you should send your hate emails. But we said a thing in there that I think holds true here. Turns out this episode was mostly talking, but you know what you and I love? Two people in a room talking. In this case, four people in a room talking, but I'll take it. Exactly. It's fantastic. Loved it. Because it really was. It was Anna and John in a room talking. It was Deline and John in a room talking. It was Deline and Anna in a room talking. It was Franklin and Sheridan in a room talking. It was Garibaldi and Sheridan in a room talking. Like, you're right. Ivanova and Jakar talking. That's what this episode was. And, man, you can get such great TV when that's what you're doing, the most meaningful TV. I don't disagree with you, Jeff. And even if I did, it wouldn't matter because this is objectively at 100% correct. I will give you an option. No, we'll save it. We'll save it for later. Well, Jeff, that's going to do it for Zaha Doom. Season 3 as a whole. It's in the bag. We got it. Next week.

[1:19:54] Next week, we got Hour of the Wolf. That's our next episode on deck. Jeff, Hour of the Wolf, season four premiere tells us what's going on next. What do you remember thinking about this episode? Like, was this a good episode? Like, where were you on this episode? What do you remember about it? I remember that this was, this felt so different than almost anything else that has happened in Babylon 5 to this point. I just remember like in my mind when I picture this episode, it's really kind of that open with Havana just really lamenting over everything that's going on. And in my head, the lighting is different. The tone and the music is different. Like this is somber. There's nothing here to celebrate that's going on. Everyone's down.

[1:20:44] And I really feel that this does a fantastic job just kind of setting the stage for we've got a couple of weeks of some pretty deep philosophical stuff that we're going to dive into in this. And then we get we pick up again, you know, and go. But I really I really remember like my memory and this is anchored in the open with Ivanova and just like how everything is. What do you remember about it?

[1:21:14] I generally like the season openers. I remember we meet Cartagia. Yeah. Who is so delightfully evil. So great. He's so great. He's so great. I remember that we meet – or not necessarily that we meet, but here's what really sticks out in my mind. You know, we, I'm not going to put us on a box. I'm not going to tell us we can't do something before we do it. You know how we said that the trilogy here, even though they were individual episodes, they really made up one story. And by their powers combined, they were better than their individual parts. The first six episodes of the season might be the best six episode stretch I've ever seen of television in my life. We go through the ranking here. And number one, we have our, the one all the way to into the fire, right? Um, but seriously, like they are, they, they are the, the Vorlon shadow war. They are that piece in this, and it brings a definitive conclusion, right? Um, and this is where it kicks off. I honestly, you're going to, you're going to ask me each week what I remember about each episode. And I'm just gonna be like, it's a part of that group.

[1:22:30] So, and I kind of remember them all together is, is what I'm saying. But I do remember we meet Lorian and we get – John's out of it, right? Like he's just chilling in a cave. I do remember thinking the first time around though, Jeff, is he dead or not? Right. Was he really dead or was he not? And I think I held on to that for quite a while and I think it took people saying, no, no, he actually died. Like he did die and he then got brought back to life. He got caught between the tick and the tock. Got caught – but is that death or not? It's the little death. Yeah. Runs through us. Yeah. He died. And then he got, you know, like Arwen in Lord of the Rings, some of his life force got given in, but it only gave him 20 minutes, 20 years left, you know?

[1:23:16] So yeah, that's what I remember. We're going to watch it right here next week and we're going to watch it with you. And I'm excited to watch it with all of you. Brent said earlier, it's fun to watch this with friends. And that's exactly what we get to do here on Babylon five for the second time. So make sure you're subscribed, comment, be a part of the community, right? Like if you're on YouTube, there's a whole conversation going on down there. Get into it. It's awesome. If you're not on YouTube and you're on a podcasting app that does the comments like Spotify or GoodPods, do that as well. If you're not there, hop over to our Patreon where we've got a ton of conversation happening all the time. We've got a Discord. We've got stuff on the Patreon itself. There's links in the show notes for all of that. If you don't want to talk to anybody about it, that's fine. But you can definitely do one thing that will make a huge difference for us. It'll mean everything to us. And that is share it, share it with someone. And the cool thing with sharing in this time of the world that we live in, you don't even have to talk to anybody about it. Just hit the little button on your phone or on your screen there. It says share, copy link, message, whatever, and then send it off. You don't have to say anything. It's cool if you do say something, but you don't have to.

[1:24:24] So with that, we're going to close out season three of Babylon five and get ready to dive into season four. So I'm Jeff. This is Brent. Hey, Jeff. Yeah, what's up, Brent? You know, I've kind of been teasing you with something this whole season, or a lot of the season anyway. Something I've been – I've told you I was going to tell you, and do you finally want to know? Yeah, of course I do. I mean, it's the end of the season. I think it's time to tell you. Yeah. Dude, I am so ready for this. All right. Well –, Actually, I need you to do something first. Okay, what do I need to do? Come with me to Zaha Doom. Oh, for crying out loud. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.